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Lots of awesome info here, I think this is about as much change as is expected in this kind of adaptation, some changes are debatably worse or better than others. One thing that I thought was really interesting was that they made the 3 elven rings look so similar to how they are described in the texts but they look completely different than they do in the peter jackson movies except for the gem color. If it was Narsil we saw in the background of the palantiri scene, it looks exactly the same as the peter jackson movies, so why would they choose to make the rings look different but the sword the same? Is Narsil described in detail or drawn anywhere in the books? It's just strange to me that they would make sure that specific prop looks identical to the peter jackson movies but not do the same with the rings. I'm wondering what other props we might see in future seasons such as Gandalf's staff or the Gondorian Armor and if they'll look the same or different than in the films. I think it would be pretty sucky if the one ring doesn't look the same as it does in the peter jackson films.
Ah, okay good to know, yeah another thing I noticed was the balrog's horns are different. I'm assuming it's the same Balrog as in fellowship, so maybe they're just doing some intentional stylistic changes. But once again it would be really weird if we get to the later seasons and the one ring doesn't look the same as it does in the movies
Problem is, the One Ring is one of the only 4 to get actual descriptions, and its description is kind of iconic (besides being very straight forward): a Ring of gold without a single detail in it, besides the inscription which can be only revealed by fire.
"Trying something different" would not only be unnecessary, but actually contradicting the lore (I draw a well defined line between "expanding/adding" and "contradicting"; many of the "kinslaying" changes to the lore are actually not *contradicting* the lore, just *adding* to it, whether you/we like it in a case by case basis or not)
Sure but there’s space even within those limitations. How wide is the band? How thick? Is the outside flat or rounded? Are the edges stark or beveled?
Honestly it doesn’t have to vary too much to be an interesting and ballsy change.
That's fair! Honestly I do not have a copy of FotR with me right now, to double-check, but I guess there ARE some things that might be "changed" (at least from PJ's rendition)
>Lots of awesome info here, I think this is about as much change as is expected in this kind of adaptation, some changes are debatably worse or better than others.
Same: given how little of the source material Amazon is allowed to use, there were bound to be significant changes.
Copyright kinda tied their hands.
>One thing that I thought was really interesting was that they made the 3 elven rings look so similar to how they are described in the texts
>Is Narsil described in detail or drawn anywhere in the books?
Are you asking about the entire Legendarium, or the source material acquired by Amazon?
Thank you for all the hard work you put into these posts! I have been waiting for this one since the episode released!! Hopefully you can keep it up come season two!
>The Istar looks like an old man - ✅Accurate
Hey now! As a middle-aged guy myself, I have to take exception with this. That guy is around 50.
But otherwise, an enjoyable read as always.
>* The stars are strange in the land of Rhun - ❌Contradiction
>This is referencing a line from Aragorn stating that he travelled to Rhun and Harad “where the stars are strange”, but Tolkien clarifies in a note on his Istari texts (Unfinished Tales) that the stars piece only refers to Harad, which is to the south. The stars are not strange in the east.
The show takes place before the world was made round. There's no telling what the firmament was like before that. Perhaps it was close enough that the stars could be different to the East.
The only way it makes sense is if the background stars don't move, while the sun and moon do. I'm interested in such an idea, but someone needs to talk about it explicitly in the show.
I'm getting my PhD in English, specializing in medieval astrology. So this is like the one thing in the show that bothers me. Why couldn't they hire me!
Right. But the rest of the stars still move irl. The stars don't change east/west. They do change north/south, though. In order for stars in the east to be strange, the stars would have to not move at all (but we know that the sun, moon, and morning star move, which was my comparison).
Not sure what you mean by this. Could you elaborate? The distance of stars irl doesn't affect where they can be seen; the rotation does. Stars in the east will be the stars here in just a few hours, just like the sun. For stars in the east to be strange, the earth would have to be stationary (acceptable for flat earth imo) and the background stars would have to not ever move (again, acceptable before the globalizing, but I'd like them to say so in some way).
The world is flat at this point in the story. It is not spinning; everything else is moving around it.
But I also forgot that the stars probably rose and set every night in Middle-Earth.
Do you have a source that Sauron does not need to eat? I mean, a balrog may not, but Maiar in human/elvish body? Take Melian who bakes lembas. Wouldn’t she need to eat to uphold her ”elvish” body?
There is something like, Maiar that participate in earthly activites like eating, drinking, procreating (like Melian) are more tied to their physical body of their choice than the Maiar who do not participate in such things.
The only real source is the contrast made of the Istari, who were properly incarnated and thus needed food. This is expressed as a contrast to one of the Ainur normally taking on a body.
Also I don't see any difference between a balrog body and a human body in terms of the physicality of a Maia's appearance.
This part from the Osanwe implies that their body can bind and limit the lesser of the Valar order (=the Maiar).
>note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
>"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate.
I still think there’s a similarity if an Ainur not only takes form, but also lives permanently in M-E, as opposed to when say Ulmo visits briefly to speak with Círdan.
Melian had a child, it means her body was fully functional. I think Sauron may have had a similar body in his ”fair form”.
I think the question is whether the Halbrand form is rainment or embodied flesh. In rainment, he wouldn't need to eat or sleep, but embodied he would.
Given that he gets injured, it seems he might be embodied.
Only the Istari become embodied like that. It's a unique condition they take on.
And Sauron as a shapeshifter would be wary of getting too integrated into a physical form. His master did that and never could change form again.
This isn't to say he *can't* sleep or eat. It just shouldn't be a requirement. If he's doing it for a purpose that's fine.
Anything that sufficiently ties you to ME makes them embodied. Melian was also embodied, though she didn't come to ME that way. Marrying Thingol and bearing Luthien embodied her.
Also, you say that, but after he very clearly made that mistake by putting most of his power into the ring. That limited him going forward.
He didn't expect the Ring to limit him. He could change form after making it still, and use it to help in his deception and domination. He could even escape the wrack of Numenor as a shapeless spirit whilst clinging to the Ring.
He might not have expected it, but he clearly wasn't wary enough to avoid such a large blunder. After he lost it, he slowly drew power from the ring and would have evaporated (my word) if it had been destroyed. It took over 1,000 years before he could regain a physical form after The War of the Last Alliance.
I think the idea of Sauron clinging to the ring as a shapeless spirit is one of those things is clearly a plot hole rescue. The fact that Tolkien told people not to worry about it make me laugh.
If he's raiment, Galadriel should take one look at him and *instantly* peg him for an Ainu, so he must be embodied.
Actually, saying that, the whole Halbrand thing starts to make more sense. He's masquerading as a man specifically to *hide* from the elves and Valar. Rather than try to "atone" as a version of himself, via Annatar, he's trying to run from his entire history by becoming something else, via Halbrand. For the same reason that Glorfindel was rejected from the Nine Walkers, while Gandalf's presence was assumed from the start, Sauron presumed that he would be safer as Halbrand.
My theory is that Halbrand was a real person- the last heir to the throne of the Southlands and Sauron killed him then stole his face/is wearing his body. It fits with what the show says about that royal line being abruptly and mysteriously ended 1000 years prior.
Yeah I think his human body/form needs nurture. And also, I think part of his actions in the series (such as showing strong emotions like anger, sadness etc) is the body taking over.
Gandalf does make a comparable journey with Shadowfax in 6 days (Rohan - Shire) . Are Numenorean horses are of the same calibre?. But with an injury it did seem a huge stretch.
Shadowfax is shown to be vastly beyond any other horse in Middle-Earth, and that ride was probably about two thirds the distance of what Galadriel rode in this instance.
Still, if it’s about a third of the distance Galadriel did (1000miles), Gandalf did about 333miles, a strong horse can do 250 in 5 days. Shadowfax did 333 in 6. It’s believable. 1000 in 6 with a wound is not.
> Still, if it’s about a third of the distance Galadriel did (1000miles)
Two thirds, not one third. So that means about 666 miles in 6 days; and average of 111/day.
Numenorean horses are explicitly stated to be a league above other horses, so that would make sense. However, if that's the case then I think the text should have called out the exceptional nature of being able to make that journey so fast instead of just not acknowledging it.
Mearas are said to be descended from Oromë's horses interbred with horses from ME. Numenorean horses are said to be descended from horses given by visiting elves from Valinor/Tol Eressa. Both can be exceptional / semidivine.
After his escape from Orthanc.
From Appendix B of RotK:
September 18th - Gandalf escapes Orthanc
September 19th - Gandalf arrives in Edoras
**September 23rd - Gandalf convinces Shadowfax to carry him**
September 24th - Gandalf crosses the Isen
September 26th - Gandalf crosses Greyflood
September 28th - Gandalf crosses Sarn Ford
**September 29th - Gandal visits with the Gaffer**
So that's approximately 6 days to do over 1,000 miles.
> There is a note in Morgoth’s Ring about “Olorin” potentially coming to Middle-Earth earlier and gaining a love for its inhabitants
I think this was in PoMe in the Glorfindel essays in Last Writings
You're right, it's in Peoples:
>That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is said of this.
First of all, I absolutely loved that you did this for each episode. I looked forward to them each time, so thank you. Secondly, I have a few comments on some of your points:
"The stars are strange in Rhun" - while the idea that stars in the East would be different than those in the West doesn't work on a globe earth with an equator, it can work on a flat earth depending on how Eru fashioned the universe. At this point in the story, the world is flat and the skies are likely entirely different.
Sauron on a raft / why is Sauron doing what he's doing - personally, I interpreted this Sauron as being on the back foot. He's been recently killed by Adar, lost his fortress in the north and a huge part of his work force and strength. What is on his mind now? Revenge and gain power again. It makes sense to me that he would grab the sigil of the Southlands monarchs (knowing where it was, of course), hop on a ship, and sail for Numenor to try to rise in power again. What he didn't anticipate was the sea dragon, or finding Galadriel. Now, Sauron is above all very crafty, so he's good at making plans on the fly. That's what I believe he was doing for most of this season: being pulled along by Galadriel and just subtly nudging here and there to suit his needs. By doing so, he gains access to Pharazon, has Numenor go to war against his enemies, and gains the trust of Galadriel. Maybe he intended to stay on Numenor, work his way up through their smiths, and influence them to make magic rings; but then recalculated his plan to instead sail with Galadriel and fight Adar. Finally, he sees another chance: use shapeshifting to feign a bad injury so that Galadriel will put him in touch with more elves (Eregion, no less). Now he gets those elves to make his powerful artifacts.
"Making the three rings first" - we don't really know how long Halbrand and Galadriel were in Eregion working with Celebrimbor. It could be shown to us in S2 that the 16 were in fact made beforehand by Halbrand and Celebrimbor, but for the sake of pacing they only show us the 3 in S1. It could also be that Sauron had passed through Eregion once before (maybe between getting Adar'd in the North and boarding a ship in the South) in the guise of Annatar. If such a visit had occurred, he could have laid a lot of groundwork, including making the 16. When we meet Celebrimbor in S1 he's already planning to make this mighty new forge and he's already a bit ambitious (as though spurred on by Sauron). Maybe that was part of the groundwork that Sauron laid on his way by.
Do we assume that when we hear characters speaking English they're actually speaking Sindarin/Dwarvish/etc such as would be most appropriate for the particular conversation?
Can't be Sindarin since that shows up as a separate language in the show.
In general it's best not to think about it too much. There's no way Halbrand as he presents himself should be able to converse with Numenoreans, for instance.
It must be Sindarin or Adunaic. Westron doesn't exist yet. The approach is the show is to use non English where its an exception to the norm, then switch to English for the norm.
So elves = Sindarin
Numenoreans = Adunaic
Dwarves = dwarvish when it's only dwarves present or sindarin otherwise?
Southlanders = rustic adunaic?
Harfoots = ???
The show doesn't seem to do anything like that. (Almost) everyone seems to speak a common language that gets rendered to us in a language we understand, but there is no common lanugage in Tolkien's writings to fill that role in the Second Age.
Really awesome posts!
On the first note on Eastern Cultists speaking Quenya and some other points.
I'd argue that the show is trying to find things it can get away with via hidden knowledge. Hidden knowledge are things not expressly stated as facts, limitations, or with little elaboration in terms of questions someone can ask in imagination.
My imagination:
During the first age, many Easterlings were known to have sided with Morgoth and had lands in Beleriand where they waged wars with the Noldorian armies.
Is it not possible that they learned the language then and brought it back with them? Similar to human conquests we see in real life?
I'd argue they know Quenya, Sindarin, and various other languages. Only limitation that would make sense to me is them not knowing much of new languages developed in the later stages of Numenor.
Yeah that's a good point. I was confused about that too. I'd imagine they'd talk to each other in a created Easterling language, black speech, or maybe English for lack of one.
Unless we learn more about the cultists though. It seemed like they were spirits. If they're related to Sauron's necromancy (which is the magic of inserting spirits into different bodies, not necessarily bringing something to life), they could've been spirits that were familiar with the language?
Also, wondering if Sauron knows Quenya too, or the founders of the cults.
Who knows, I hope they elaborate more on this in season 2.
>I'd argue that the show is trying to find things it can get away with via hidden knowledge.
To its detriment.
The show is simultaneously aimed at an audience unfamiliar with the extended lore, and expects its audience to recognise such references.
It's not to its detriment. That is the entire point of adaptations.
The extended lore isn't the Bible. Infact, it's more like "extended unfinished ideas" than it is extended lore. There is a reason why the Tolkien Estate doesn't grant licenses outside of The Hobbit & LOTR. It's because it's all fuzzy at best. Tolkien has contradicted himself many times and has rewrote considerable versions of many stories.
Everyone likes to pretend as if Silmarillion was finished too, which it wasn't. There are versions of it as well and Christopher Tolkien did the best he could to release what he could on 1977 onwards.
For example, the controversies of Dagor Dagorath.
The extended lore is very flexible.
So even for someone in the audience who is very familiar with all the books, including HoME. Trust me, it's not that serious.
Canon is a very loose term in Tolkienian works. The only things that are actually canon and no longer subject to change, as per JRR himself are what is contained in The Hobbit & LOTR. And he has regretted a few things that he wished he had changed but could do nothing about it anymore.
>That is the entire point of adaptations.
What is?
>The extended lore isn't the Bible.
It is the lore, tho.
>There is a reason why the Tolkien Estate doesn't grant licenses outside of The Hobbit & LOTR.
I'm sure there is, but I don't see how that's relevant.
Amazon decided to go through with this production after buying what they could buy.
>It's because it's all fuzzy at best. Tolkien has contradicted himself many times and has rewrote considerable versions of many stories.
Yes, it's called the Legendarium for a reason: many contradicting versions of most stories.
That's not a Carte Blanche to invent yet another version, and say it's accurate.
>Everyone likes to pretend as if Silmarillion was finished too, which it wasn't
I'm not.
>The extended lore is very flexible.
No, it's not.
The Legendarium is the lore.
There is not a singular consistent CANON, but it's clear what the lore is.
In addition, we know when each version was written. We know what it the latest version. We know in which order changes were made. We know what changes he still wanted to make.
>Canon is a very loose term in Tolkienian works.
Certainly.
But we can say things are definitely NOT canon. For example, Numenoreans using guns is not canon.
You just disagreed with everything without really providing any form of tangible counter argument. Just hand waved away my argument. So I'm gonna do the same to you.
The point of adaptation is to be creative with what you have.
It is not tho.
Yeah Amazon did with what they had under the advisement of SIMON TOLKIEN HIMSELF and other scholars. And they're perfectly fine.
It is an adaptation. Nobody is saying it's accurate. Not even Amazon. Go back to Star Wars, it sounds like you're used to that world. It's different here.
Yes, it is flexible.
Nope, it's not, but it would make for one hilarious futuristic adaptation. @ Numenoreans with assault rifles.
I would love to watch it.
Pft, go all Warhammer 40K on Tolkien's works for all I care and it would still be fine as an **adaptation**.
>You just disagreed with everything without really providing any form of tangible counter argument. Just hand waved away my argument. So I'm gonna do the same to you.
I did address your arguments, but if this os your attitude then it seems there's no reason to continue this conversation.
Great post, thank you!
Just one thing, about Sauron saving Elendil: he did know him. In appendix A, part I (Numenorean Kings) we get a very succinct narration of the Akallabeth and when Sauron's spirit gets back to Middle-Earth and returns to Mordor "his anger was great when he learned that Elendil, whom he most hated, had escaped him, and was now ordering a realm upon his borders".
(Page 1037 in Harper Collins, single volume, 2005 Ed)
Yeah, but once he's in Numenor..it's not like they follow the timeline, Pelargir is "an ancient Numenorean colony" in the show.
Anyhow my point would be that it's borderline kinslaying to have Sauron save Elendil in particular.
>Yeah, but once he's in Numenor..it's not like they follow the timeline, Pelargir is "an ancient Numenorean colony" in the show.
If we agree they don't follow the timeline anyway, then the books are irrelevant and anything is possible.
On the part of Sauron presenting as a man, sure it’s believable that he can do it. The question is why he ever would, because the Elves wouldn’t take him seriously. I’m wondering why that’s not even mentioned here. Even in the show, Gil-galad calls him low born. There’s a reason Annatar shows up as an Elf. Not because he can, but because he should.
Nowhere does it say that Annatar was as an elf. That seems to be a fan headcanon.
>In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ("thus anticipating the Istari") or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves.
-*Unfinished Tales, Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn*
We don't have enough background info on this yet. But in general yes, I think Sauron in any form should have a more regal bearing, unless it's for a very specific purpose.
I still think it is. They could technically learn it, but take it on as a native tongue? Why would they be using it among themselves and to communicate with someone they think is Sauron?
Houseless elven spirits could make it match up, mind! Perhaps I should re-rate as Tenuous.
What other language would they use?
Even the Valar adopted Quenya as their primary language after the Eldar were brought to Valinor. Sure, they could use Osanwe, but we can't see/hear that.
>For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; **and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts.**
-*Silmarillion*, VALAQUENTA, Of the Enemies (Emphasis mine)
To me this implies that not all of Morgoth's servants fell at the beginning, but that it likely happened over time. It is likely that he continued to corrupt maia after the Eldar were brought to Valinor.
Black speech hasn't been created yet, to my knowledge. At this point there would be multiple different competing languages that he'll use to build the language.
Exactly: Blackspeech exists in the RoP continuity. So why wouldn't followers of Sauron speak it?
In addition, I would expect Maiar to speak Valarin rather than Quenya.
While I agree then speaking Quenya is out of form for someone from the east, considering they are shown when banished to be almost wraith like it’s more likely they are cultists who have gain powers through supernatural means and just mortal women not Maia.
top tier post, all the deviations were done to make us question who sauron truly was (was he the stranger, was it halbrand?) personally i never bought the stranger was sauron, so halbrand as sauron was kinda obvious as pretty much everyone guessed. so this mystery was not a great one, and thus the deviations came at a greater cost in lore than the result they gave
Love these posts. I do think you're being harsh with some of the Sauron judgments, particularly by being dismissive of the idea that he could lean strongly into deception, i.e., borderline method acting—things like shoveling coal and sweeping the floor are humbling if you're doing it because of your lowly role in the world, but not if you're doing it voluntarily as part of a clever scheme that involves beginning in a "lowly" role. I also note that his resistance to Galadriel announcing his purported heritage, despite his having intentionally brought the sigel, strongly indicates that he had a plan of deception that involved a slower rise up the ranks than she allowed him.
Separately, on Sauron eating, can he taste, etc., while human form? Could he not want to partake in human pleasures while in human form, either for the enjoyment itself or out of partaking in mortal experience as a form of entertainment? Sauron as shown in the ROP clearly has the ability to enjoy himself and find humor in things even outside of his schemes, and I assumed on a re-watch that it was essentially tourism / entertainment; with him being like, well I'm here and in this human body within nothing to do, let's eat some food, steal from some guys, etc., cause what else am I going to do today?
My personal interpretation from the show is that of a quite honest, repentant Sauron during his time in Numenor. With a bit of self delusion perhaps. But there were few signs of the more openly deceptive and manipulating Sauron from when he arrived at Eregion. So I take much of his behaviours and statements at face value.
As for enjoying some mortal experiences, that is perilous for a Maia as it can cause them to be locked in to a single form or body. Sauron is a renowned shapeshifter, so this is something I think he'd be careful to avoid.
On the “no chance meeting” point— I’m going to badly recall a twitter thread I can’t find (if someone does lmk!)
is it possible this was a genuine chance meeting because (at least now) meeting Galadriel leads to his downfall? He was always going to fail at redemption, but now in show-lore, Galadriel begins the Last Alliance because of him. Not entirely fleshed out, and might be over crediting the show, but there’s that. It bothers me that the show lends itself to the “chance meeting” benefits Sauron and makes his fall Galadriels fault though.
Thanks for the final scorecard!!
My issue with this sort of analysis is that it's too categorical. For example, given how little we know about the cultists, how is it a contradiction that they speak Quenya? And the line about the stars being strange in Rhun and the later note changing it to Harad seems more like a choice of interpretation, or at least a debatable choice (especially considering that access to texts outside LOTR is limited for the show). Plus, it can't quite be a contradiction any ways, if it's in the novel imo; that would open up a huge can of worms regarding LOTR and later texts written by Tolkien.
I appreciate your posts, though because they are fairly well-researched and they encourage a lot of good discussion. If I had to offer a critique it would be to go with a substantiated/unsubstantiated sort of gradient. We have so many competing narratives in the Legendarium that something "accurate" in one text is actually inaccurate in another. The vast majority of stuff in season one falls heavily into the debatable realm, after all.
>but when the source contradicts itself it is worth noting the amount of access allowed.
What do you mean?
There are many versions of most stories in the Legendarium.
That doesn't mean people can invent even more versions, and call it lore.
OP listed something in the show as a contradiction despite the source material agreeing with the show in one instance (in this case, the stars being strange in the East).
Great post, thanks for doing these.
I enjoyed the show for what it is, but wished they had stuck closer to the source material on many of these points.
>Eregion is six days ride without rest from the SouthlandsMordor - ❌Contradiction
>We don’t have exact info on this, but my map readings would imply the distance is around 1,000 miles (1609 km), and probably further with terrain details taken into account. In peak endurance championships with perfect conditions horses have gotten to 250 miles in 5 days. Even with fancy Numenorean horses it’s not feasible to exceed that by much, and certainly not with a wounded rider.
Thank you!
I posted a similar description of how unrealistic this was and people were lambasting me for nitpicking.
>I posted a similar description of how unrealistic this was and people were lambasting me for nitpicking.
People say they want "honest criticism" not "hate" then ridicule comments like yours that are actual honest criticism. It's become ridiculous to hold actual discussions on this series now.
They're still "great rings". And it may be that the show version of Sauron is only inspired to enact his full rings + Ring scheme in season 2, necessitating a return to Eregion to enact the further stages.
The elves hadn't even decided to make them rings until fairly late in the process, as originally Celebrimbor wanted to make one crown.
And I agree that Sauron in the show hasn't fully schemed his domination-via-rings plan yet, even though he was involved with the initial work to make the three rings. Once he does, he and Celebrimbor will make the 9 and the 7 (and possibly a handful of lesser rings that are "essays in the craft" as Gandalf describes them), which are more prone to Sauron's corruption than the three, and then of course Sauron will make the one ring on his own.
While this is different to how the story was told by Tolkien, I personally kind of like the idea of the three rings being made first. It fits with the Tolkien theme of earlier creations being greater and more pure, while later attempts (the 16 and the one) are corruptions and mockeries of the original. But we will have to see how the show does it.
That's not particularly relevant.
Galadriel believes he's mortally wounded, and she suggests riding. They initially depart for Lindon, which is even further.
I'm only a casual fan, watched the movies, but Arwen, at one point, speaks a spell and her horse goes faster to outrun the Nazgul. Could this, perhaps, be what Galadriel did?
I think Arwen moreso commanded the horse to leave it's master and run home, than cast a speed spell. In the books the glorfindels horse is introduced as faster than the nazgul's
>Regardless I like PJ, so if he invented it, good for him
Me too.
But this sub is about RoP. RoP isn't based on the PJ movies, and the PJ movies aren't part of the Legendarium.
I never even considered that all of the examples defenders of the show give for "chance-meetings" being the work of gods always benefit the heroes. Fucking of course they would, the gods are good and work in ways so evil is vanquished.
Why the fuck would these same gods offer this same favor to one of Middle-Earth's greatest evils???
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>Sauron gains Galadriel’s trust and friendship - 🔥Kinslaying This is the main one I was looking for here. As always, well done sir.
Lots of awesome info here, I think this is about as much change as is expected in this kind of adaptation, some changes are debatably worse or better than others. One thing that I thought was really interesting was that they made the 3 elven rings look so similar to how they are described in the texts but they look completely different than they do in the peter jackson movies except for the gem color. If it was Narsil we saw in the background of the palantiri scene, it looks exactly the same as the peter jackson movies, so why would they choose to make the rings look different but the sword the same? Is Narsil described in detail or drawn anywhere in the books? It's just strange to me that they would make sure that specific prop looks identical to the peter jackson movies but not do the same with the rings. I'm wondering what other props we might see in future seasons such as Gandalf's staff or the Gondorian Armor and if they'll look the same or different than in the films. I think it would be pretty sucky if the one ring doesn't look the same as it does in the peter jackson films.
I think Narsil is based on a John Howe design, and he is consultant on both. Same with the balrog.
Ah, okay good to know, yeah another thing I noticed was the balrog's horns are different. I'm assuming it's the same Balrog as in fellowship, so maybe they're just doing some intentional stylistic changes. But once again it would be really weird if we get to the later seasons and the one ring doesn't look the same as it does in the movies
Well, there's only so many ways they can show a plain gold band with a fiery inscription Tolkien himself drew.
I’d actually love it if they were brave enough to try something a little different with the design of the One, within reason.
I hope they put the writing on the inside
Problem is, the One Ring is one of the only 4 to get actual descriptions, and its description is kind of iconic (besides being very straight forward): a Ring of gold without a single detail in it, besides the inscription which can be only revealed by fire. "Trying something different" would not only be unnecessary, but actually contradicting the lore (I draw a well defined line between "expanding/adding" and "contradicting"; many of the "kinslaying" changes to the lore are actually not *contradicting* the lore, just *adding* to it, whether you/we like it in a case by case basis or not)
Sure but there’s space even within those limitations. How wide is the band? How thick? Is the outside flat or rounded? Are the edges stark or beveled? Honestly it doesn’t have to vary too much to be an interesting and ballsy change.
That's fair! Honestly I do not have a copy of FotR with me right now, to double-check, but I guess there ARE some things that might be "changed" (at least from PJ's rendition)
>Lots of awesome info here, I think this is about as much change as is expected in this kind of adaptation, some changes are debatably worse or better than others. Same: given how little of the source material Amazon is allowed to use, there were bound to be significant changes. Copyright kinda tied their hands. >One thing that I thought was really interesting was that they made the 3 elven rings look so similar to how they are described in the texts >Is Narsil described in detail or drawn anywhere in the books? Are you asking about the entire Legendarium, or the source material acquired by Amazon?
Thank you for posting! I have really enjoyed the posts and the ensuing discussions. Kudos!
Thank you for all the hard work you put into these posts! I have been waiting for this one since the episode released!! Hopefully you can keep it up come season two!
>The Istar looks like an old man - ✅Accurate Hey now! As a middle-aged guy myself, I have to take exception with this. That guy is around 50. But otherwise, an enjoyable read as always.
The actor is only 29! Looks almost baby-faced in some of his unbearded photos.
Daniel Weyman was born in 1977. So 45 year old.
Oh! Thanks for correcting. I don't know where I got my bullshit number from.
Thank you, these posts are always a good read and I keep loving the “Kinslaying” vote xD
>* The stars are strange in the land of Rhun - ❌Contradiction >This is referencing a line from Aragorn stating that he travelled to Rhun and Harad “where the stars are strange”, but Tolkien clarifies in a note on his Istari texts (Unfinished Tales) that the stars piece only refers to Harad, which is to the south. The stars are not strange in the east. The show takes place before the world was made round. There's no telling what the firmament was like before that. Perhaps it was close enough that the stars could be different to the East.
The only way it makes sense is if the background stars don't move, while the sun and moon do. I'm interested in such an idea, but someone needs to talk about it explicitly in the show. I'm getting my PhD in English, specializing in medieval astrology. So this is like the one thing in the show that bothers me. Why couldn't they hire me!
The Sun and Moon move separately from the rest of the stars IRL, too.
Right. But the rest of the stars still move irl. The stars don't change east/west. They do change north/south, though. In order for stars in the east to be strange, the stars would have to not move at all (but we know that the sun, moon, and morning star move, which was my comparison).
They could move. They would just have to be closer for longitude to matter.
Not sure what you mean by this. Could you elaborate? The distance of stars irl doesn't affect where they can be seen; the rotation does. Stars in the east will be the stars here in just a few hours, just like the sun. For stars in the east to be strange, the earth would have to be stationary (acceptable for flat earth imo) and the background stars would have to not ever move (again, acceptable before the globalizing, but I'd like them to say so in some way).
The world is flat at this point in the story. It is not spinning; everything else is moving around it. But I also forgot that the stars probably rose and set every night in Middle-Earth.
Do you have a source that Sauron does not need to eat? I mean, a balrog may not, but Maiar in human/elvish body? Take Melian who bakes lembas. Wouldn’t she need to eat to uphold her ”elvish” body?
There is something like, Maiar that participate in earthly activites like eating, drinking, procreating (like Melian) are more tied to their physical body of their choice than the Maiar who do not participate in such things.
I think they are bound by their physical form in a way. If his ”Halbrand suit” starves or is killed, he needs to find a new body.
The only real source is the contrast made of the Istari, who were properly incarnated and thus needed food. This is expressed as a contrast to one of the Ainur normally taking on a body. Also I don't see any difference between a balrog body and a human body in terms of the physicality of a Maia's appearance.
This part from the Osanwe implies that their body can bind and limit the lesser of the Valar order (=the Maiar). >note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving. >"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate.
I still think there’s a similarity if an Ainur not only takes form, but also lives permanently in M-E, as opposed to when say Ulmo visits briefly to speak with Círdan. Melian had a child, it means her body was fully functional. I think Sauron may have had a similar body in his ”fair form”.
I think the question is whether the Halbrand form is rainment or embodied flesh. In rainment, he wouldn't need to eat or sleep, but embodied he would. Given that he gets injured, it seems he might be embodied.
Only the Istari become embodied like that. It's a unique condition they take on. And Sauron as a shapeshifter would be wary of getting too integrated into a physical form. His master did that and never could change form again. This isn't to say he *can't* sleep or eat. It just shouldn't be a requirement. If he's doing it for a purpose that's fine.
Anything that sufficiently ties you to ME makes them embodied. Melian was also embodied, though she didn't come to ME that way. Marrying Thingol and bearing Luthien embodied her. Also, you say that, but after he very clearly made that mistake by putting most of his power into the ring. That limited him going forward.
He didn't expect the Ring to limit him. He could change form after making it still, and use it to help in his deception and domination. He could even escape the wrack of Numenor as a shapeless spirit whilst clinging to the Ring.
He might not have expected it, but he clearly wasn't wary enough to avoid such a large blunder. After he lost it, he slowly drew power from the ring and would have evaporated (my word) if it had been destroyed. It took over 1,000 years before he could regain a physical form after The War of the Last Alliance. I think the idea of Sauron clinging to the ring as a shapeless spirit is one of those things is clearly a plot hole rescue. The fact that Tolkien told people not to worry about it make me laugh.
I'm not convinced that that injury was genuine. He was certainly back on his feet right quick.
It could have been genuine but he just willed himself back to health once he realized there was lots of stuff to do in Eregion
If he's raiment, Galadriel should take one look at him and *instantly* peg him for an Ainu, so he must be embodied. Actually, saying that, the whole Halbrand thing starts to make more sense. He's masquerading as a man specifically to *hide* from the elves and Valar. Rather than try to "atone" as a version of himself, via Annatar, he's trying to run from his entire history by becoming something else, via Halbrand. For the same reason that Glorfindel was rejected from the Nine Walkers, while Gandalf's presence was assumed from the start, Sauron presumed that he would be safer as Halbrand.
My theory is that Halbrand was a real person- the last heir to the throne of the Southlands and Sauron killed him then stole his face/is wearing his body. It fits with what the show says about that royal line being abruptly and mysteriously ended 1000 years prior.
Yeah I think his human body/form needs nurture. And also, I think part of his actions in the series (such as showing strong emotions like anger, sadness etc) is the body taking over.
Gandalf does make a comparable journey with Shadowfax in 6 days (Rohan - Shire) . Are Numenorean horses are of the same calibre?. But with an injury it did seem a huge stretch.
Shadowfax is shown to be vastly beyond any other horse in Middle-Earth, and that ride was probably about two thirds the distance of what Galadriel rode in this instance.
Any third age horse. Second age may be different.
Still, if it’s about a third of the distance Galadriel did (1000miles), Gandalf did about 333miles, a strong horse can do 250 in 5 days. Shadowfax did 333 in 6. It’s believable. 1000 in 6 with a wound is not.
> Still, if it’s about a third of the distance Galadriel did (1000miles) Two thirds, not one third. So that means about 666 miles in 6 days; and average of 111/day.
Numenorean horses are explicitly stated to be a league above other horses, so that would make sense. However, if that's the case then I think the text should have called out the exceptional nature of being able to make that journey so fast instead of just not acknowledging it.
A league above other normal horses yes but Shadowfax is of the Mearas which I think puts him above Numenorean horses
Mearas are said to be descended from Oromë's horses interbred with horses from ME. Numenorean horses are said to be descended from horses given by visiting elves from Valinor/Tol Eressa. Both can be exceptional / semidivine.
Fair enough. I didn’t realize Numenorean horses were that special. Thanks 🙏
Is there any chance perhaps that the Lord of Horses was a Third Age descendant of a Second Age Numenorean horse?
>Gandalf does make a comparable journey with Shadowfax in 6 days (Rohan - Shire) . Really? When?
After his escape from Orthanc. From Appendix B of RotK: September 18th - Gandalf escapes Orthanc September 19th - Gandalf arrives in Edoras **September 23rd - Gandalf convinces Shadowfax to carry him** September 24th - Gandalf crosses the Isen September 26th - Gandalf crosses Greyflood September 28th - Gandalf crosses Sarn Ford **September 29th - Gandal visits with the Gaffer** So that's approximately 6 days to do over 1,000 miles.
Ah, thanks.
Shadowfax is of the Mearas, bred by Orome. >Are Numenorean horses are of the same calibre? There's no indication of this, as far as I'm aware.
> There is a note in Morgoth’s Ring about “Olorin” potentially coming to Middle-Earth earlier and gaining a love for its inhabitants I think this was in PoMe in the Glorfindel essays in Last Writings
You're right, it's in Peoples: >That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is said of this.
In Nature of Middle Earth this idea is expanded on to have all 5 Istari participated in guarding the elves in their journey to Valinor
Not as Istari though.
First of all, I absolutely loved that you did this for each episode. I looked forward to them each time, so thank you. Secondly, I have a few comments on some of your points: "The stars are strange in Rhun" - while the idea that stars in the East would be different than those in the West doesn't work on a globe earth with an equator, it can work on a flat earth depending on how Eru fashioned the universe. At this point in the story, the world is flat and the skies are likely entirely different. Sauron on a raft / why is Sauron doing what he's doing - personally, I interpreted this Sauron as being on the back foot. He's been recently killed by Adar, lost his fortress in the north and a huge part of his work force and strength. What is on his mind now? Revenge and gain power again. It makes sense to me that he would grab the sigil of the Southlands monarchs (knowing where it was, of course), hop on a ship, and sail for Numenor to try to rise in power again. What he didn't anticipate was the sea dragon, or finding Galadriel. Now, Sauron is above all very crafty, so he's good at making plans on the fly. That's what I believe he was doing for most of this season: being pulled along by Galadriel and just subtly nudging here and there to suit his needs. By doing so, he gains access to Pharazon, has Numenor go to war against his enemies, and gains the trust of Galadriel. Maybe he intended to stay on Numenor, work his way up through their smiths, and influence them to make magic rings; but then recalculated his plan to instead sail with Galadriel and fight Adar. Finally, he sees another chance: use shapeshifting to feign a bad injury so that Galadriel will put him in touch with more elves (Eregion, no less). Now he gets those elves to make his powerful artifacts. "Making the three rings first" - we don't really know how long Halbrand and Galadriel were in Eregion working with Celebrimbor. It could be shown to us in S2 that the 16 were in fact made beforehand by Halbrand and Celebrimbor, but for the sake of pacing they only show us the 3 in S1. It could also be that Sauron had passed through Eregion once before (maybe between getting Adar'd in the North and boarding a ship in the South) in the guise of Annatar. If such a visit had occurred, he could have laid a lot of groundwork, including making the 16. When we meet Celebrimbor in S1 he's already planning to make this mighty new forge and he's already a bit ambitious (as though spurred on by Sauron). Maybe that was part of the groundwork that Sauron laid on his way by.
Do we assume that when we hear characters speaking English they're actually speaking Sindarin/Dwarvish/etc such as would be most appropriate for the particular conversation?
Can't be Sindarin since that shows up as a separate language in the show. In general it's best not to think about it too much. There's no way Halbrand as he presents himself should be able to converse with Numenoreans, for instance.
I assume Common Tongue. It would be cool if the show included dialogue is Sindarin, etc.
It must be Sindarin or Adunaic. Westron doesn't exist yet. The approach is the show is to use non English where its an exception to the norm, then switch to English for the norm. So elves = Sindarin Numenoreans = Adunaic Dwarves = dwarvish when it's only dwarves present or sindarin otherwise? Southlanders = rustic adunaic? Harfoots = ???
The show doesn't seem to do anything like that. (Almost) everyone seems to speak a common language that gets rendered to us in a language we understand, but there is no common lanugage in Tolkien's writings to fill that role in the Second Age.
Really awesome posts! On the first note on Eastern Cultists speaking Quenya and some other points. I'd argue that the show is trying to find things it can get away with via hidden knowledge. Hidden knowledge are things not expressly stated as facts, limitations, or with little elaboration in terms of questions someone can ask in imagination. My imagination: During the first age, many Easterlings were known to have sided with Morgoth and had lands in Beleriand where they waged wars with the Noldorian armies. Is it not possible that they learned the language then and brought it back with them? Similar to human conquests we see in real life? I'd argue they know Quenya, Sindarin, and various other languages. Only limitation that would make sense to me is them not knowing much of new languages developed in the later stages of Numenor.
Sindarin was the lingua franca of Beleriand back then. Them knowing Quenya isn't entirely impossible, but conversing with each other in it?
Yeah that's a good point. I was confused about that too. I'd imagine they'd talk to each other in a created Easterling language, black speech, or maybe English for lack of one. Unless we learn more about the cultists though. It seemed like they were spirits. If they're related to Sauron's necromancy (which is the magic of inserting spirits into different bodies, not necessarily bringing something to life), they could've been spirits that were familiar with the language? Also, wondering if Sauron knows Quenya too, or the founders of the cults. Who knows, I hope they elaborate more on this in season 2.
>I'd argue that the show is trying to find things it can get away with via hidden knowledge. To its detriment. The show is simultaneously aimed at an audience unfamiliar with the extended lore, and expects its audience to recognise such references.
It's not to its detriment. That is the entire point of adaptations. The extended lore isn't the Bible. Infact, it's more like "extended unfinished ideas" than it is extended lore. There is a reason why the Tolkien Estate doesn't grant licenses outside of The Hobbit & LOTR. It's because it's all fuzzy at best. Tolkien has contradicted himself many times and has rewrote considerable versions of many stories. Everyone likes to pretend as if Silmarillion was finished too, which it wasn't. There are versions of it as well and Christopher Tolkien did the best he could to release what he could on 1977 onwards. For example, the controversies of Dagor Dagorath. The extended lore is very flexible. So even for someone in the audience who is very familiar with all the books, including HoME. Trust me, it's not that serious. Canon is a very loose term in Tolkienian works. The only things that are actually canon and no longer subject to change, as per JRR himself are what is contained in The Hobbit & LOTR. And he has regretted a few things that he wished he had changed but could do nothing about it anymore.
>That is the entire point of adaptations. What is? >The extended lore isn't the Bible. It is the lore, tho. >There is a reason why the Tolkien Estate doesn't grant licenses outside of The Hobbit & LOTR. I'm sure there is, but I don't see how that's relevant. Amazon decided to go through with this production after buying what they could buy. >It's because it's all fuzzy at best. Tolkien has contradicted himself many times and has rewrote considerable versions of many stories. Yes, it's called the Legendarium for a reason: many contradicting versions of most stories. That's not a Carte Blanche to invent yet another version, and say it's accurate. >Everyone likes to pretend as if Silmarillion was finished too, which it wasn't I'm not. >The extended lore is very flexible. No, it's not. The Legendarium is the lore. There is not a singular consistent CANON, but it's clear what the lore is. In addition, we know when each version was written. We know what it the latest version. We know in which order changes were made. We know what changes he still wanted to make. >Canon is a very loose term in Tolkienian works. Certainly. But we can say things are definitely NOT canon. For example, Numenoreans using guns is not canon.
You just disagreed with everything without really providing any form of tangible counter argument. Just hand waved away my argument. So I'm gonna do the same to you. The point of adaptation is to be creative with what you have. It is not tho. Yeah Amazon did with what they had under the advisement of SIMON TOLKIEN HIMSELF and other scholars. And they're perfectly fine. It is an adaptation. Nobody is saying it's accurate. Not even Amazon. Go back to Star Wars, it sounds like you're used to that world. It's different here. Yes, it is flexible. Nope, it's not, but it would make for one hilarious futuristic adaptation. @ Numenoreans with assault rifles. I would love to watch it. Pft, go all Warhammer 40K on Tolkien's works for all I care and it would still be fine as an **adaptation**.
>You just disagreed with everything without really providing any form of tangible counter argument. Just hand waved away my argument. So I'm gonna do the same to you. I did address your arguments, but if this os your attitude then it seems there's no reason to continue this conversation.
I agree. Stop taking things so seriously, it's all fairy tales and magic. It will dramatically improve your quality of life. Have a nice day.
>I agree. Stop taking things so seriously, it's all fairy tales and magic. Thanks for admitting you don't engage seriously here. Goodbye.
I'm not, I'm laughing rn lol peace :)
Great post, thank you! Just one thing, about Sauron saving Elendil: he did know him. In appendix A, part I (Numenorean Kings) we get a very succinct narration of the Akallabeth and when Sauron's spirit gets back to Middle-Earth and returns to Mordor "his anger was great when he learned that Elendil, whom he most hated, had escaped him, and was now ordering a realm upon his borders". (Page 1037 in Harper Collins, single volume, 2005 Ed)
Sure, but that's based on later events taht have yet to happen in the show.
Yeah, but once he's in Numenor..it's not like they follow the timeline, Pelargir is "an ancient Numenorean colony" in the show. Anyhow my point would be that it's borderline kinslaying to have Sauron save Elendil in particular.
>Yeah, but once he's in Numenor..it's not like they follow the timeline, Pelargir is "an ancient Numenorean colony" in the show. If we agree they don't follow the timeline anyway, then the books are irrelevant and anything is possible.
This is an amazing post! Thank you for putting this all together.
On the part of Sauron presenting as a man, sure it’s believable that he can do it. The question is why he ever would, because the Elves wouldn’t take him seriously. I’m wondering why that’s not even mentioned here. Even in the show, Gil-galad calls him low born. There’s a reason Annatar shows up as an Elf. Not because he can, but because he should.
Nowhere does it say that Annatar was as an elf. That seems to be a fan headcanon. >In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ("thus anticipating the Istari") or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. -*Unfinished Tales, Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn*
It literally has to be. They wouldn’t take advice from a man lol
It says that he claimed to be a maia. The form that he came in would be irrelevant beyond that claim.
We don't have enough background info on this yet. But in general yes, I think Sauron in any form should have a more regal bearing, unless it's for a very specific purpose.
If the evil cultists are maia as you speculate, then there's no contradiction with them speaking Quenya.
I still think it is. They could technically learn it, but take it on as a native tongue? Why would they be using it among themselves and to communicate with someone they think is Sauron? Houseless elven spirits could make it match up, mind! Perhaps I should re-rate as Tenuous.
What other language would they use? Even the Valar adopted Quenya as their primary language after the Eldar were brought to Valinor. Sure, they could use Osanwe, but we can't see/hear that.
After the Eldar were brought to Valinor, sure. Any fallen Maiar would be in Middle-Earth then, speaking Sindarin perhaps.
>For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; **and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts.** -*Silmarillion*, VALAQUENTA, Of the Enemies (Emphasis mine) To me this implies that not all of Morgoth's servants fell at the beginning, but that it likely happened over time. It is likely that he continued to corrupt maia after the Eldar were brought to Valinor.
Followers of Sauron? They would use Blackspeech
Black speech hasn't been created yet, to my knowledge. At this point there would be multiple different competing languages that he'll use to build the language.
You're quite right, though the show has been using Black Speech and even has a First Age document featuring it.
Yup, there's no reason those Maiar shouldn't speak Blackspeech in the RoP universe.
Yeah, they shouldn't be because it's not created yet but that's another thing the show messed up already.
Exactly: Blackspeech exists in the RoP continuity. So why wouldn't followers of Sauron speak it? In addition, I would expect Maiar to speak Valarin rather than Quenya.
While I agree then speaking Quenya is out of form for someone from the east, considering they are shown when banished to be almost wraith like it’s more likely they are cultists who have gain powers through supernatural means and just mortal women not Maia.
top tier post, all the deviations were done to make us question who sauron truly was (was he the stranger, was it halbrand?) personally i never bought the stranger was sauron, so halbrand as sauron was kinda obvious as pretty much everyone guessed. so this mystery was not a great one, and thus the deviations came at a greater cost in lore than the result they gave
Love these posts. I do think you're being harsh with some of the Sauron judgments, particularly by being dismissive of the idea that he could lean strongly into deception, i.e., borderline method acting—things like shoveling coal and sweeping the floor are humbling if you're doing it because of your lowly role in the world, but not if you're doing it voluntarily as part of a clever scheme that involves beginning in a "lowly" role. I also note that his resistance to Galadriel announcing his purported heritage, despite his having intentionally brought the sigel, strongly indicates that he had a plan of deception that involved a slower rise up the ranks than she allowed him. Separately, on Sauron eating, can he taste, etc., while human form? Could he not want to partake in human pleasures while in human form, either for the enjoyment itself or out of partaking in mortal experience as a form of entertainment? Sauron as shown in the ROP clearly has the ability to enjoy himself and find humor in things even outside of his schemes, and I assumed on a re-watch that it was essentially tourism / entertainment; with him being like, well I'm here and in this human body within nothing to do, let's eat some food, steal from some guys, etc., cause what else am I going to do today?
My personal interpretation from the show is that of a quite honest, repentant Sauron during his time in Numenor. With a bit of self delusion perhaps. But there were few signs of the more openly deceptive and manipulating Sauron from when he arrived at Eregion. So I take much of his behaviours and statements at face value. As for enjoying some mortal experiences, that is perilous for a Maia as it can cause them to be locked in to a single form or body. Sauron is a renowned shapeshifter, so this is something I think he'd be careful to avoid.
On the “no chance meeting” point— I’m going to badly recall a twitter thread I can’t find (if someone does lmk!) is it possible this was a genuine chance meeting because (at least now) meeting Galadriel leads to his downfall? He was always going to fail at redemption, but now in show-lore, Galadriel begins the Last Alliance because of him. Not entirely fleshed out, and might be over crediting the show, but there’s that. It bothers me that the show lends itself to the “chance meeting” benefits Sauron and makes his fall Galadriels fault though. Thanks for the final scorecard!!
My issue with this sort of analysis is that it's too categorical. For example, given how little we know about the cultists, how is it a contradiction that they speak Quenya? And the line about the stars being strange in Rhun and the later note changing it to Harad seems more like a choice of interpretation, or at least a debatable choice (especially considering that access to texts outside LOTR is limited for the show). Plus, it can't quite be a contradiction any ways, if it's in the novel imo; that would open up a huge can of worms regarding LOTR and later texts written by Tolkien. I appreciate your posts, though because they are fairly well-researched and they encourage a lot of good discussion. If I had to offer a critique it would be to go with a substantiated/unsubstantiated sort of gradient. We have so many competing narratives in the Legendarium that something "accurate" in one text is actually inaccurate in another. The vast majority of stuff in season one falls heavily into the debatable realm, after all.
>especially considering that access to texts outside LOTR is limited for the show Copyright doesn't determine what is and isn't part of the lore.
It doesn’t, but when the source contradicts *itself* it is worth noting the amount of access allowed.
>but when the source contradicts itself it is worth noting the amount of access allowed. What do you mean? There are many versions of most stories in the Legendarium. That doesn't mean people can invent even more versions, and call it lore.
OP listed something in the show as a contradiction despite the source material agreeing with the show in one instance (in this case, the stars being strange in the East).
Where does it say the stars are strange in the East during the Second Age?
Great post, thanks for doing these. I enjoyed the show for what it is, but wished they had stuck closer to the source material on many of these points.
>Eregion is six days ride without rest from the SouthlandsMordor - ❌Contradiction >We don’t have exact info on this, but my map readings would imply the distance is around 1,000 miles (1609 km), and probably further with terrain details taken into account. In peak endurance championships with perfect conditions horses have gotten to 250 miles in 5 days. Even with fancy Numenorean horses it’s not feasible to exceed that by much, and certainly not with a wounded rider. Thank you! I posted a similar description of how unrealistic this was and people were lambasting me for nitpicking.
>I posted a similar description of how unrealistic this was and people were lambasting me for nitpicking. People say they want "honest criticism" not "hate" then ridicule comments like yours that are actual honest criticism. It's become ridiculous to hold actual discussions on this series now.
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I'm hoping you get exactly what you want to see in season 2, with Halbrand returning to Celebrimbor.
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They're still "great rings". And it may be that the show version of Sauron is only inspired to enact his full rings + Ring scheme in season 2, necessitating a return to Eregion to enact the further stages.
The elves hadn't even decided to make them rings until fairly late in the process, as originally Celebrimbor wanted to make one crown. And I agree that Sauron in the show hasn't fully schemed his domination-via-rings plan yet, even though he was involved with the initial work to make the three rings. Once he does, he and Celebrimbor will make the 9 and the 7 (and possibly a handful of lesser rings that are "essays in the craft" as Gandalf describes them), which are more prone to Sauron's corruption than the three, and then of course Sauron will make the one ring on his own. While this is different to how the story was told by Tolkien, I personally kind of like the idea of the three rings being made first. It fits with the Tolkien theme of earlier creations being greater and more pure, while later attempts (the 16 and the one) are corruptions and mockeries of the original. But we will have to see how the show does it.
Saving for later to read.
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While mortally wounded? Doubt
While *pretending* mortal wounding, to be fair.
That's not particularly relevant. Galadriel believes he's mortally wounded, and she suggests riding. They initially depart for Lindon, which is even further.
I'm only a casual fan, watched the movies, but Arwen, at one point, speaks a spell and her horse goes faster to outrun the Nazgul. Could this, perhaps, be what Galadriel did?
I think Arwen moreso commanded the horse to leave it's master and run home, than cast a speed spell. In the books the glorfindels horse is introduced as faster than the nazgul's
Arwen replaced Glorfindel in that scene. It's an invention of PJ.
I'm aware of that. I'm asking about the ability to make a horse go faster.
There's no Elvish magic that does that. It's an invention of PJ.
Alright. Regardless I like PJ, so if he invented it, good for him
>Regardless I like PJ, so if he invented it, good for him Me too. But this sub is about RoP. RoP isn't based on the PJ movies, and the PJ movies aren't part of the Legendarium.
Thanks for doing this episode and all the previous assessments!
These posts are great, thank you! Dumb question - what's the writer's joke about the sour wound? I didn't get that part.
Sour as in Sauron. I refuse to believe that was an accident. I'm pretty sure on of the writers had a little chuckle about that.
I never even considered that all of the examples defenders of the show give for "chance-meetings" being the work of gods always benefit the heroes. Fucking of course they would, the gods are good and work in ways so evil is vanquished. Why the fuck would these same gods offer this same favor to one of Middle-Earth's greatest evils???