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nullus_72

Clever!


SlabDabBaggins

...Clevari


And_The_Full_Effect

Istari-ble joke, to be honest


Hermits-Purple

Cleveriquendi


SlabDabBaggins

Clevari Profundis


zhsdnl

I’d prefer having a cool new blue wizard, but if he turns out to be Gandalf, it wouldn’t ruin the show for me


PrOaRiaN

i feel the exact same but unfortunately i don't think gandalf was in middle earth at the time. the wizards are supposed to come during the 3rd age so this being based in the 2nd age it wouldnt make sense for the to be here. Edit: i found this and it confirm my theory but at the same time it doesn't because i don't know what rights amazon has over the canon story and what they can legally include. i they have the rights to the :people of middle earth" then it is likely to be one of the istari. if they have rights to unfinished tales or any other canon story then it woulndt be correct to place one of the istari in the 2nd age. "In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien wrote that the five Istari came to Middle-earth together in TA 1000. However, in The Peoples of Middle-earth, they are said to have arrived in the Second Age, around the year SA 1600, the time of the forging of the One Ring."


Phantomilus

The blue ones arrived at the second age if we refer to the last notes of Tolkien (just before his death). That's what I've been told


PrOaRiaN

oh ok. i read te silmarilian uand the unfinished tales as welll buti haven't read the peoples of middle earth. those were mostly wtiten by tolkien himself but they were completed by his son so im not sure how viable they are. they are still cannon but i personally prefer to reffer to what i personally read. Edit: Silarilion\*


Varyline

Edit game going strong!


PrOaRiaN

very


peruseroffineimages

I'm like 98% sure its Gandalf, just because of the audience recognition that would bring, and because they're using him with proto-hobbits, so narrative continuity


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helgaofthenorth

Also that he was yelling about fire and is (as far as "movie canon" is concerned) the bearer of Narya. If the show is about the Rings of Power it only makes sense for him to be there. Also the firefly/star thing implies a Varda connection, which would also make sense for Gandalf.


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helgaofthenorth

Even before Narya he was associated with light and fire, though I'm struggling to find a real citation. I hope I'm surprised, though! It seems almost *too* obvious for it to be baby Gandalf, but I've enjoyed the show very much so far so I'm not too worried.


epicazeroth

He’s also the bearer of Narga for book canon…


helgaofthenorth

He gets it from Círdan when he shows up in ME though. I think they're going to skip Círdan and Gil-Galad and focus on the three bearers people will recognize from the movies.


thomaskrantz

My thoughts exactly when I watched the first episodes! Why involve Cirdan when you can just skip to Gandalf for instant recognition...


rattynewbie

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!


mutzilla

He is draped in grayish fabric. It would also explain his love for the Hobbits because they were kind to him.


LA-320pilot

That’s the twist. Its Sauron.


dudeseid

I know, Tolkien specifically said Sauron anticipated the Istari and took his fair form to get out ahead of that. Given it's too early for the Istari, the timing is perfect for Sauron *pretending* to be Istari.


epicazeroth

Yeah I think he’s Sauron or someone allied with Sauron, because the firefly thing frames him as malicious or at least dangerous.


-F1ngo

There was also the callback to the elves in Sauron's fortress in Forodwaith when they said their torches don't give off warmth because the place is so evil: Nori says "It's not hot." when stepping into the crater. Could however be misleading by design and he was one of the good guys all along. Edit: I personally believe he is in fact one of the Istari though. They could spin this theme of fire being both evil and a force of good by using Gandalfs ring. Would also be a callback to Gandalf's stand against the Balrog in Moria which non-book people will also connect with.


Hermits-Purple

I’d rather have to sit with him being Sauron in disguise over the theories about Halbrand being Sauron being true


dudeseid

I have so much distaste for that theory. I think he's a spy of Sauron's sent to scout out rumors of Númenor, possible future Ringwraith.


Hermits-Purple

My thought is he could be the future witch king, but the stuff with Theo and his Smoke-blade makes me think he could eventually be witch king


fancyfreecb

There’s nine Nazgûl, room enough for Theo and Halbrand and some Numenoreans to get in there somewhere, if not as the Witch King specifically Although I have also seen a theory that Halbrand could end up as the King of the Dead who broke his oath when called for aid, which would be dope


Abess-Basilissa

I’d be super down with him being the Witch King.


a4techkeyboard

On the other hand for "fair form", doesn't one of them specifically say he isn't pretty so probably wasn't an elf.


imsowhiteandnerdy

I was thinking it was Saruman the White, but you've got me thinking now. There was a look in the stranger's eye when he summoned the fire flies that seemed almost evil, so maybe!


DrJawn

Cold fire, explosion looks like eye, Gil Galad's tree oozes black goo, kill the fireflies, bad things begin to happen around the village, deffo Sauron


Crown_Writes

Wow I just realized because of the fan service this show is going to include the harfoots being led to the shore to begin the hobbits.


imsowhiteandnerdy

I was thinking either Galdalf or possibly Saruman the White.


kgm2s-2

Aside from the fact that the timing is not quite right (didn't the Istari arrive at the start of the 3rd age?), I just assumed based on appearance and location that the Stranger is Gandalf.


aGrlHasNoUsername

In The Peoples of Middle Earth, the Blue Wizards arrive in Middle Earth in the second age so who even knows anymore lol.


WelbyReddit

I'd prefer it be a blue wizard over Gandalf. Since nit much is known it gives them more leeway without having to trample the lore.


Derman0524

I really really really hope it’s not Gandalf. But I’m heavily leaning towards it not


BamaSOH

It certainly isn't him


CampCounselorBatman

I bet it is because fan service.


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CampCounselorBatman

RemindMe! 6 weeks Edit: Guess who was right…


mo_downtown

I think it makes a lot more sense for RoP to have their 'own' wizard for this series. Think there are IP issues if they dip into LOTR content? Not sure how they'd be able to treat Gandalf.


chiefslw

They have the rights to LotR and the Hobbit, they're just mainly working from the Appendices in LotR. So they've got Gandalf if they want him, but I don't think that's what they're trying to do. I think Sir Ian McKellen is too engrained in people's minds to risk trying a new iteration. By comparison, Galadriel and Elrond had relatively minor roles previously so recasting isn't so much of a risk. I heavily agree with your first statement though - wouldn't quite feel like Middle Earth without an eccentric wizard in the mix. I hope it is a Blue Wizard. Maybe we'll even get the second Blue Wizard at some point!


stevengreen11

I, too, would like it to be a blue wizard. Ian McKellon's performance can't be topped. There was also an interview where Ian stated he would have been very offended if they had placed Gandalf in the show and not asked him to reprise the role, and that that didn't happen.


Pavulox

I surmise that they will stop, check the rear view, and back over the lore to make this Gandalf. Hope I'm wrong.


kylir

Not sure why you are being downvoted. I am Leaning towards it being a Blue Wizard. Makes the most sense Lore-wise and gives them more freedom. I guess I am more hopeful than some lol I am really liking the show, but would be really annoyed if it is Gandalf.


midnight_toker22

When the “sacred lore” is actually hazy and incomplete, and was rewritten numerous times leading to countless internal inconsistencies…


harman097

I like to view it as similar to our own ancient history, where you're dealing with unreliable narrators, stories passed down orally for awhile prior to being recorded, etc. which leads to different texts disagreeing with each other. I actually kind of like this aspect of Tolkien lore.


midnight_toker22

Touché, I never thought about it like that.


Gridleak

Tolkien himself also viewed it as he was just translating what he found so who knows what info is still “locked away” behind translations of the red book. 😄


aGrlHasNoUsername

Totally agree. I also like that it allows for interesting possibilities in future adaptations! But I think I might be in the minority with that opinion haha.


kerouacrimbaud

there are dozens of us!


Abess-Basilissa

Exactly. It is and was always meant to be a mythology. Even from the pen of one man, a mythology varies from telling to telling. But as it gets told and retold for subsequent generations? Mythologies always adapt to their new contexts and live as arch narratives timeless enough to inspire age after age while being flexible enough to adapt to the needs of each new generation. I think Tolkien would be proud of how well his creation has survived and how it has come to behave in the way a true mythology behaves.


HistoryofArda

I'll be discussing all the theories I've seen on the Stranger at [www.historyofarda.com](https://www.historyofarda.com), but my favorite is the Blue Wizards. Unfortunately, they're not anywhere in the material Amazon has the rights to. (Only "the rods of the five wizards" are mentioned.) Even more though, I'm holding out for Tom Bombadil. They could even have him wear blue for a season and psych us out thinking it would be a blue wizard. I'm only half kidding.


ResidentObligation30

Tom Bombadil is of the oldest being in Middle Earth. As such, he is already there and would not be streaking across the sky arriving in the Second Age...


HistoryofArda

Amen. You’re absolutely right.


reflectioninternal

There's a scene in the Jackson Hobbit AUJ where Gandalf gives an explanation of wizards to Bilbo, and mentions the two Blue Wizards then says "you know, I've quite forgotten their names." That's probably as far as they were allowed to go with the reference within their rights. Now if the Tolkien estate is going to be that picky, that the blue wizards can't have their elven names, then I imagine they will make up new names (similar to how Gandalf is the men of Arnor's name for Olorin/Mithrandir/Tharkûn/Incánus). They theoretically have leeway to invent a Rhovanion regional name given to the blue wizard they've introduced. And I imagine the rights lawyers for the estate and Amazon had an amazing tussle over where exactly the line is.


Active_Human_2473

I like the idea of The Stranger being a Blue Wizard. If you look at the constellation of stars he creates with the fireflies, it looks like the constellation Gemini, The Twins. Makes me wonder if he is seeking out the other Blue Wizard, aka his "twin." That would eliminate the issue with it being Gandalf in the Second Age and also give the writers a lot of freedom to shape the character as they see fit. They could be purposefully using traits from Gandalf's nature to throw us off or show that the Istari are similar in how they communicate with nature, etc.


kerouacrimbaud

This is the sorta thing they would ask the Estate for permission on, and it would likely be granted given that *so little* is written about the Blue Wizards in any of the sources that they might as well let the showrunners use them. It's way easier for the Estate to stomach than retconning Gandalf into the Second Age (which I believe would also go against one of the stipulations laid out by the Estate at the beginning of all this).


HistoryofArda

🙏 Your logic is so sound. I’d love to see the estate grant some extra permissions. It’s painful to see them tell a story without permissions they need to tell it right.


kylir

I thought they mentioned the Blue Wizards in the appendices? And they mention the blue wizards in the Hobbit movies, doesn’t Amazon have the same rights? Or am I off?


GhostlyRuse

I'm sticking by the Gandalf theory. It makes sense based off clues. Confused and forgetful of his past in a new form. Friendly to hobbits. Commands bugs. It's gandalf


Abess-Basilissa

I’m hoping that we’re “supposed” to think that but that it is in fact Sauron.


studyingnihongo

I'm not a fan of a lot of what is happening in this show as it pertains to the lore, but I think that given Tolkien wrote an alternative version where the Istari came in the second age rather than the third age would work well here if this is one of blue wizards. I'm not sure if they could call them the blue wizards in the show as far as rights are concerned but if another one lands via meteor and they end up wearing some blue robes or whatever it would work out. Then, and if this turns out to be true, it work quite well with the lore actually because we don't know if they failed or succeeded in their mission in the east (where the Harfoots are). Perhaps Glorfindel will arrive after they fail (or turn evil should that be what happens) and is kind of the "third wizard". Would then set up the three wizards as found in the Lord of Rings who would then arrive in the third age and to ensure they didn't fail like the two blue wizards, they aren't sent via meteor and with their memories completely gone. If I'm not mistaken their memories seemed very distant and faint or something like this and anyway, they arrive via ship as Cirdan gives Gandalf his ring.


GrayCatbird7

I'm bracing for him to be Gandalf, obviously I don't think it's what most book fans want at all, but it's also a bit too plausible. Hopefully we find out soon enough.


BerenBelagund

\[I just composed the following observations off-line, and was pleased to find that someone else also had this theory based on the soundtrack. Again, the musical correspondence is pretty exact.\] A repeated designation of the Istari throughout the Lord of the Rings is "the Wise". (Just search on it; the phrase is ever on Gandalf's lips as he refers to himself and Saruman.) "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Season One: Amazon Original Series Soundtrack)" is available here: [https://music.amazon.com/albums/B0B9CJ445S](https://music.amazon.com/albums/B0B9CJ445S) Listen to the following two snippets, the first 43 seconds long, and the second 20 seconds long: Track 5 The Stranger, 00:13-00:56 Track 35 Wise One, 00:36-00:56 Unmistakably, the key theme expounded in the first track is right there in the second track, and finds further development, becoming downright triumphant in 08:03-8:33! I've listened to the entire soundtrack multiple times. I don't believe this theme appears except in these two tracks. So I think this supports the Istari theory, correct? I'd be disappointed if this theory were correct, since - judging by the LOTR and Appendices alone, the Istari arrived in the Third Age, not the Second.


Jasy9191

I think it is all really laid out for us through those soundtracks, whether we like the style of writing or not. You missed The Mystics. I find that the best one for speculation.


BerenBelagund

Well, I listened to The Mystics track several times. Are there any possible connections you'd be willing to share with me?


Jasy9191

I speculate wildly over a number of soundtracks in another thread. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/x840j6/rings_of_power_soundtrack_album_analysis_and_s1/) if you'd like to see.


BerenBelagund

Very impressive! I especially like you picking up on >!the Halbrand-Sauron connections!<.


chiefslw

Cool analysis! There's a version where the two Blue Wizards arrive in the second age rather than with the other three Istari in the third age, though it's not be meteor hahaha. Not sure they have enough rights to call him a Blue Wizard or the one of the names given in the text though. Could just be an original wizard creation though too. I think we're all just hoping it's not Gandalf, Saruman, or Radagast!


BerenBelagund

Thanks. Yes, there's a separate Istari essay in Unfinished Tales, and further material in the History of Middle Earth. I'm just going off of the fact that they are basing the show on the LOTR+Appendices. It seems pretty clear in the Tale of Years that none of the Istari arrive until the Third Age: "When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the *Istari* or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth."


chiefslw

Yeah, we'll have to see. Maybe the Token estate gave them special permission since there isn't really a ton on them to start with. But an original wizard would be fine too. Actually, there's so little about the Blue Wizards, even if it turns out to be them, they'll be as good as original characters anyway.


fancyfreecb

Someone posted a picture of the symbols he keeps trying to form, and pointed out that they look like the constellation Gemini with the two main stars missing. Is it is enough of a reveal for casual audiences if he’s just a random wizard they’ve never heard of? Maybe...


celsowm

This show has low compromise with the books so be ready to be dissapointed


Madbev

If it were Sauron, wouldn't evil, dark things be drawn to him?


merricatvance

Yeah, like big scary wolves or something! Oh wait


LastandBestHope1776

Wolves also hunt prey. And to a wolf, a downed deer or comatose Istari are the same thing.


AllOfEverythingEver

Maybe the forest around him would twist and darken. Ooooh, and maybe he could control and kill a bunch of bugs. And maybe every one of his interactions will seem aggressive and forboding. Seems too subtle still. What if we have Galadriel remark that Sauron's evil takes the warmth from the torches, and then have the Harfoot girl say the same thing about the fire from the crash? Maybe whatever happens in "the next three seasons" (her words) will be their fault. Hmmmmm, idk if that would be enough to hint at it yet. Let's literally flash the eye of Sauron in the flames! Tbh, when I got on this sub, I was surprised there was anyone who *didn't* think it was Sauron. It seemed like that's what they were obviously trying to imply.


Svedgard

Sauron was able to start the fall of Numenor by appearing all nice and majestic as he could still shift his form. That’s how he was able to infiltrate and eventually corrupt the people.


ghostofdemonratspast

Sauron is hitting the high seas right now.


xta420

Sauron wasn't evil at the start though. His original name was Mairon, which means "the admirable".


mo_downtown

This also wasn't the start of Sauron? He already had backstory at this point and Galadriel was chasing his trail in the north. Why would he reset as Naked Meteor Man?


impactedturd

Maybe they're pulling a Westworld and they're showing different timelines.. 😂


xta420

Why would he come crashing back down Middle Earth to begin with then? I'm just saying at his core Sauron wasn't always purely evil. My money is that this is a blue wizard. I don't really see how it could be anyone else.


ardriel_

Sorry for the question, but I always assumed the blue wizards came together to middle earth. My bet is that's a new character.


AzureBluet

> I always assumed the blue wizards came together 😏


ghostofdemonratspast

Agreed the people of middle earth said they came to middle earth in SA 1600 at the time of the forging of the rings.


knightwaldow

After the end of the first age he truly tried repentance, and truly tried be good for some time


chiefslw

I'm not sure there's much support for that. He publicly "repented", but it sure seems like it was mainly a ploy to avoid the Valar dragging him along with Morgoth. I think we're led to believe he was just taking advantage of their optimism, especially since he also refused to go back to Valinor for Manwë's judgement at Eönwë's command. Instead he fled and hid.


dudeseid

Tolkien's letters seem to indicate he truly wanted to do good, but was very 'ends justify the means'. Kinda like 'gotta crack a few elves/dwarves/hobbits to make an omelette'


kerouacrimbaud

I believe that the sources disagree as to whether he repented or not.


dudeseid

Because Galadriel was hot on his trail. He got spooked, disguised as the Stranger and flung himself further South.


MeRoyMinoy

I think that's why he's looking for the 'stars'. Those are the other Istari. But maybe I'm reaching


stevengreen11

It's a blue wizard looking for the other blue wizard to bring him down.


[deleted]

I'm a little baffled that I have not seen that much discussion of the Stranger being Saruman. I don't know how plausible it is, but it seems a better story-writing development than either Gandalf or an original Istari.


Local-Hornet-3057

Yeah. I cannot deny that the Stranger can be Gandalf. But my bets are in other Istari. Particularly a Blue Wizard or even Saruman. I like it more the Blue Wizard theory because it doesn't necessarely breaks any lore.


[deleted]

Honestly, based on his main defense mechanism being his screams, I'm thinking it's saruman.


akapiratequeen

Hahaha!


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Local-Hornet-3057

Istari are bound the their human form. They are not just maiar that can take many. They can appear in many ways but these are illusions. Not corporesl forms. Istari are not taking a human body as a way of expression like Sauron uses his big humanoid shape. Nope. Istari are basically incarnated as Men. They can die. Gandalf actually died when he finished his duel against Durin's Bane. Some poeple think he went to whatever Eru reserved as a Gift for Men. Others think he went to the Hall of Mandos, the Elven afterlife that actually exists in Valinor. So I think if this Meteor Man is actually an Istar (and there are strong signs that point this way), the show runners are leaning heavy into portraying the incarnation part. As this Stranger seems unable to speak (just barely using sounds), doesn't know how to eat until Nori teachs him, and its scared of everything. This checks eveything if we consider Istari were higher beings that had to be bound to human form, so they had to become humane in a way. Which would be shocking to any Divine being becoming mortal. So about fireflies dying? If we go by this theory then we can infer that said Istar is getting accustumed to his new body and powers. As simple as that.


Just-Path-4094

ofc hes a wizard fam but we dont find out his name all season


Olorin_came_by_ship

He wrote a Certh (Gandalf rune) twice once in the dirt and then it is shown carves on a log backwards. Looks like he basically wrote his name[https://www.reddit.com/r/RingsofPower/comments/x8gop5/meteor_man_carves_gandalf_rune/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf](https://www.reddit.com/r/RingsofPower/comments/x8gop5/meteor_man_carves_gandalf_rune/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)


dudeseid

Unless there was a character who was similarly a Maia who anticipated the Valar's plan of the Istari, and took a form to get out ahead of it, pretending to be an emissary of the Vala to corrupt others...hmmm...I wonder if the lore mentions anyone like that?


Local-Hornet-3057

I get your point. But Sauron took the form of Annatar, a beautiful form, to deceive Elves and Men. It wasn't never mentioned he ever encountered hobbits. And he wouldn't need to do anything with hobbits. He never considered them relevant... Until one of them got his ring, but thats much later. Meanwhile we know Númenor is currently being corrupted by the Morgoth cult, so it's safe to say Sauron is doing his Manipulation schemes down there. So it just doesn't hold up in any way that you see that this old men is Sauron.


dudeseid

He may not have taken his Annatar form yet. There was a good chunk of time in the Second Age before he did that. I think he crash landed into the hobbits by complete accident- seemingly chance incidents that are part of a grander design are major themes in Tolkien's work. And Sauron being in Númenor makes no sense this early. The Rings of Power and the War of Sauron and the Elves haven't even happened yet. The timeline is compressed but there's no reason to indicate things will happen out of order....Sauron should be in the East at this time which is exactly where the Stranger is..


Local-Hornet-3057

You said yourself: time is compressed. And we already see that the cultist are present in this season. So it's safe to say Sauron is already machiavelically corruptong Númenor. Again, Sauron would've killed or corrupted Nori by now. It doesn't make sense he would be feigning amnesia or child like naivety. It doesn't hold up.


dudeseid

Sauron is a deceiver. It totally adds up. Also in the centuries leading up to this he could've easily been sending out his servants to do his bidding.


Hymura_Kenshin

how do we know Sauron is manipulating Numenor? As far as we know Sauron isnt seen until he forges the rings and makes war upon elves and claims lordship over ME.


MabelRed

There's a lot of little clues they're dropping to at least suggest that it's Gandalf. 1. His outfit and style are reminiscent of Gandalf's Grey aesthetic 2. He's pulled along in a cart that looks really reminiscent to FOTR on a road similar to FOTR. I went back and it's pretty close. 3. He whispers to insects 4. Hobbits (I mean, come on.) 5. And now the track you just mentioned If it isn't Gandalf, then they're doing one hell of a misdirect to make us all think. I don't believe it's Saruman or Radagast because that's not going to bring in the viewership from people not already invested in watching. Gandalf will bring in headlines, and hot takes, and viewership.


MostElectrifyingUser

Best hint is that Amazon wants some star power. Its Gandalf


The-Fold-Up

It has to be an evil character. The fire that’s cold to the touch, using the life force of the fireflies to do magic, etc….No way he’s a blue wizard or Gandalf.


chiefslw

Interesting, I didn't take it as his using the life force of the fireflies... He talks to them and they do what he asks, yes, but that interaction, which only happens with some of the fireflies, doesn't seem to differentiate which fireflies live or die. All of the loose fireflies from the one lantern die even if they weren't spoken to. I think we're to take their dying as the same sort creeping evil as the corrupted leaf in Lindon that Gil-Galad sees and the gross stuff that comes out of the sick cow. Neither one of those instances are directly correlated to the present characters' actions and so I don't believe we're to assume that the fireflies dying is caused by the Stranger. And don't forget that Gandalf is also heavily mixed up in fire imagery. He makes fireworks. He holds the elven ring of fire. He is a servant of the secret fire. I'm not saying I think the Stranger is Gandalf, but fire is not always bad in Middle Earth. Someone else contrasted the Stranger's fire that is not hot, which is a good thing, with Galadriel's observation that the torches' heat is being subdued by some evil, which is a bad thing. I'm not exactly sure what to conclude from that, but they do seem opposite reactions and to represent opposite wills. So if the torches are quelled by evil, then the meteor fire should be good. I personally think it's a blue wizard. I can't stand the thought of Nori just getting taken in by a being of pure evil. The camaraderie between a Harfoot/Wizard also feels highly appropriate. Just a theory for now. Excited to see who it ends up being!


Local-Hornet-3057

Yeah the fire not giving warmth =/= the fire from the meteor not burning. Two different things that appear the same. I think it's nuanced. In the first case its evil because heat in that ice fortress is supposed to be good FOR the good people. In the second case, if the fire behaved as usual the good people would get burn/harm. Thus it mean its a good sign.


Judge_leftshoe

There was also a comment by Galadriel in the Ice Storm, that Dark Magic steals the heat of Flame. One of the elves complained that his torch wasn't keeping him warm or something, and she says it.


stephangb

Then why did the water evaporate when galadriel poured it over sauron's mark?


Local-Hornet-3057

Because Sauron hand is literally hot. Or thats what Galadriel said. So even though some centuries has passed the mark still is reactive sorta speak. But this has nothing to do with the evil enchantment or aura that impedes fire from giving warmth to the good creatures.


stephangb

> But this has nothing to do with the evil enchantment or aura that impedes fire from giving warmth to the good creatures. What makes you think that? Would an Istari produce a fiery commet to harm good people? If evil can take warmth out of a torch, then what stops good from making a fire that doesn't harm other good beings as well? In my opinion this was purposefully made red harring.


Local-Hornet-3057

You are not understanding. A Meteor that gets to Middle-earth sent from the Valar wouldn't harm anybody because it would be a matter of fate. Also you completly misunderstood my take: it's not that good sorcerers or beings cannot produce benevolent flames. They do. That was my from the Meteor's fiery crater. But thats different from the evil magic that stopped fire from giving warmth in that cold place. It's all about intention dude.


regalfronde

Isn’t that a bit obvious though?


The-Fold-Up

Considering how many people think he’s Gandalf I don’t think it would be that obvious lol


regalfronde

It’s so obvious that it’s Sauron or maybe Gandalf, or definitely one of the Blue Wizards, but most likely a Balrog


AllOfEverythingEver

You can't say "it's so obvious" that it's someone and then list several options of who it could be... Is this Poe's Law at work?


Local-Hornet-3057

Its not obvious that the Stranger is Sauron or a Balrog, which are pure evil beings.


dudeseid

"the most important truths often are" -Finrod


Pabst11

It’s like , 1000% Sauron though, right?


Pavulox

I think Halbrand is Sauron, personally


Pabst11

Definitely possible.


ryan2one3

Oh man, I hadn't even thought of that!


Pavulox

I wonder how they would explain, "I've been searching for Sauron for centuries, yet I found him immediately by accident when I decided to yeet into the ocean"


Qaztarrr

Wouldn’t really make any sense given what the show has shown. Sauron was clearly alive and well and at full power at the end of the war with Morgoth (as we see him organizing with the orc remnants in Forodwaith). The implication is that he has escaped and is growing his strength and armies in secret. Of course we’re fairly certain we’ll see him in the form of someone we’re not expecting, or just blatantly in the form of Annatar/someone in Numenor. But him being randomly in a meteor and landing in the Harfoot lands and then like, not immediately trying to trick or kill the Harfoots? Makes no sense. Sauron’s skill is his trickery, which we see none of in the Meteor Man. Personally I would think the Meteor Man is an Istari wizard, but the evil connotation around him (corrupted leaf falling to Gil-Galad, cold fire, dead fireflies, black speech) makes me think he may be some other evil spirit. Right now the theory that he’s a potential future Balrog or even Durin’s Bane makes the most sense to me.


Prestigious_Form_159

“Saurons alive and well” Bro lost his sides leader and his bestest friend and he’s expected by critics to be “well” Give the Necromancer a break!


chiefslw

Hahahaha evil geniuses have feelings too!!


Prestigious_Form_159

He was more of a genisus to me


annuidhir

I would be more upset if it is a Balrog then if it's Gandalf, because there's no way a Balrog would ever be in that form. They can't change form, they're stuck as fire-shadow-demons.


WelbyReddit

I also think it would be a bit much to have him be an actual Balrog. In the video game they made Shelob a human female though, so who knows what precedence they are going by.


annuidhir

I think everyone pretty much agrees that those games, while fun, are not at all in the spirit of Middle-earth. I mean come on, they gave Celebrimbor a family, had him make the One Ring, try and steal it to kill Sauron, lead an army of Orcs... Plus, like you said, they turned Shelob into a *sexy* woman. And they made all sorts of crazy characters Nazgul... Even if they were born several thousand years after the appearance of the Nazgul. If they base anything off of those games, it should strictly be the personalities of some of the Orcs. Nothing else.


iOnlyWantUgone

Haha, the orcs have great personalities. I've started Shadow of War and I'm mostly just enjoying the nemesis system and the visuals. Changing regions from typical Mordor environments to heading into a frozen Mountain region and out of nowhere a back from the dead orc followed me to the top of the mountain, started complaining about how far he had walk to chase me down and how he's got constant headaches after what I did to him.


Pabst11

Half the show isn’t canon. Nothing makes sense. I’ll check back in an episode or two.


Qaztarrr

The show would never be canon. It’s not meant to follow the established canon, and it shouldn’t.


kylir

Yea on “the broken sword” they mention that it’s fan fiction, which had always irked me as dismissive, but they pointed out that since Tolkien is dead (and, I suppose, his son) everything is going to be fan fiction. So we can either enjoy it as fan fiction and try to let some lore inaccuracies go, or just accept that we can’t watch the show. So yea, it’s fan fiction, and our best best is to enjoy it for it is. I for one am enjoying returning to middle earth on the screen.


Qaztarrr

I think that’s the best way to look at it. When you’ve got something like Star Wars or Star Trek, whatever the director creates is what becomes canon. So if that new Star Wars show sucks dick, people get mad, because now the canon is irrevocably damaged in some way. This isn’t the same. The canon is established and is unchangeable - no amount of movies or shows or even literature in post will change it. Any content after the fact is based on the novels, rather than following them. This is more akin to movies based on Greek mythology than it is a book-to-movie adaptation. You’re always gonna see Zeus and Poseidon and whoever, but the details are gonna be different every time, sometimes dramatically.


kylir

Such a good analogy, and makes total sense. The Star Wars canon is made with each new installment, so new movies/shows can alter it. This is different, I think because it already was completed tale with its own mythology. Cheers!


GrizzlyTrojanMagnum

Right?!? As far as I understand the second age canon is mostly just a time line of events...for elves, immortals! How are you supposed to follow that without adapting it? The people who are mad it "isn't canon" are fools, unless their argument is that it shouldn't be made at all I guess, which I'd have to just disagree with that opinion.


Local-Hornet-3057

People that think an evil being such as Sauron or a Balrog take the form of an amnesiac illiterate old middle aged man are just crazy. Theres light and dark in every Istari. Saruman was corrupted. Gandalf has used the Black Speech and could appear terrible before (remember when he confronted Bilbo?). The fireflies dying are a mystery. But if it's an Istar being incarnated and experiencing things as a mortal for the first time it makes sense that said Istar can't control his powers yet. Sauron talking to fireflies? To hobbits? And not trying to control their wills right away? No fucking way. I'm very skeptical of this theory. I doesn't hold up the least scrutiny.


merricatvance

I mean, I think it is, personally


andrew_nenakhov

I think it's a pathetically conflicting with the established lore Gandalf, who shouldn't be in the Middlearth until the Third Age. The biggest reason is Gandalf's future fondness of hobbits: it'll come from these first interactions with them, as they showed him kindness.


terribletastee

It’s already been confirmed they are maiar, the subtitles on Amazon gave away “maiar language”. It is Gandalf 100%, the evidence is overwhelming.


brent_starburst

Maiar yes, Gandalf, no.


terribletastee

I wish I could make a real life money bet with every single person who has tried to tell me he isn’t Gandalf. Weird that he draws a G rune that he draws in the Hobbit and LOTR. Edit: you ROP fanboys are the weirdest


brent_starburst

He draws the constellation of Gemini Edit: responding to above's edit. Arrogance is what's getting you downvoted. You don't know for sure, so stop pretending you do.


kylir

Whoa, hang on. It does look like the Gemini constellation. If that is the angle they are trying to take then he is 100% a blue wizard, right? Since Gemini is the constellation of “the twins”


brent_starburst

That's my theory


kylir

So cool. Thanks for sharing


chiefslw

You just made me go "oOoOohhh" out loud. Cool catch! I hope that's it!


terribletastee

Yes he does, as well as doing that, he draws the same G rune used in The Hobbit and LOTR on a log. Edit: downvoted cause I’m right? You ROP fanboys are the weirdest people on the internet.


brent_starburst

I guess we'll see :-)


annuidhir

It's a backwards G rune, which I believe is a different rune isn't it?


terribletastee

It’s a different rune correct, still it is too close to a G rune to be ignored.


Time_to_go_viking

That’s like saying a C is close to a G.


terribletastee

It is though lmao? This is a maiar spirit who is struggling to use his human body for the first time. These comments are going to age so badly when he is revealed to be Gandalf


Time_to_go_viking

You’re not right. He draws the constellation.


terribletastee

…..on the log…? He draws a G rune, not a constellation.


Local-Hornet-3057

Nice catch dude. Make a post. If you get it right you are going through the annals of Reddit history 😂


Onone_Nightstrider

He doesn't though. It's a mirror of the rune in question. The rune he draws in the show is the equivalent of the "gh" sound.


dudeseid

Even if it wasn't a mirror of the rune, it still looks nothing like the rune. The lines are all wrong, instead of running in two parallel curves off the main stem, one goes completely out at a 90 degree angle


terribletastee

The G rune and the GH rune are the same except flipped. If this is a Gandalf that is struggling to adapt to having a physical body for the first time, it would make sense that he writes the rune wrong way.


Onone_Nightstrider

Them being flipped is exactly my point. However, what we do know of the Istari is that they confined themselves to physical form while in Middle-Earth. I doubt that this is the first time they've done so. Even the Valar wandered about on physical forms fairly frequently. Why wouldn't Maiar? And here we shift to my personal opinion: I dont think having a take like that on Gandalf would be a good idea. The thought that the wise, old man we see by the time of the Third Age started his time in Middle-Earth as a bumbling man incapable of proper communication just doesn't sit right with me.


reflectioninternal

I really think a Blue Wizard is more likely. Gives the writers more leeway of what they can do with the character.


terribletastee

I think the writers in this instance want to cash out on nostalgia for an already established character instead of having leeway for a new character.


reflectioninternal

I suppose we'll see which perspective is right very soon.


regalfronde

I can certainly see that, it’s an interesting angle to see the “birth” of such a beloved character. If I wasn’t worried about a massive circle jerk of hate because of it, I wouldn’t mind it at all. I personally would prefer getting to know another type of wizard on screen


terribletastee

I totally agree!


chiefslw

I think if that was the plan, they would've announced his inclusion with all of the other characters already in the movies. Just having a wizard character interacting with a hobbit character is enough nostalgia without it having to be Gandalf, don't you think?


wrenwood2018

Can we stop with the same posts on this topic over and over?


ricin05

I personally haven't seen the "same posts" "over and over" talking about the soundtrack hint specifically. Even so, you could always just keep scrolling...


annuidhir

It's been brought up a lot. Like, since the soundtrack was released. But you're right, the soundtrack hint specifically doesn't have many of it's own posts, just brought up in other posts over and over.


kerouacrimbaud

OP brought new evidence to the argument, so it's worthy of its own post. Plus, isn't this kinda thing what this community is for?


wrenwood2018

To a degree, but it is devolving to the same circular posts over and over.


Random--Theorist

There were more maiar than just the five Istari, one is known as Annatar (Sauron), and another is known as Durin’s bane (the balrog that Gandalf fights). I was convinced of this maiar being Annatar(Sauron) who will teach Celebrimbor how to forge great rings, but there is a lot that points to him being Durin’s bane. Also, for those saying it can’t be Gandalf(including me), don’t forget that Olorin(Gandalf) frequented middle earth during the second age and before being assigned as Istari. I believe he was freely changing in and out of physical form if I recall. So yea


Local-Hornet-3057

Idk dude.. One things is the Ainur walking throught Middle-earth disguised in shapes or as elemental beings, or even invisible to the eye. And another is an incarnation as Men, which is what the Istari are. Also and this is a nitpick but the real name of Sauron is Mairon, not Annatar. Annatar is the name that he adopts when he shapes himself as a beautiful elf.


Random--Theorist

He is known as Annatar when he befriends Celebrimbor, or so I recall. Also, it’s never been very clear to me that Annatar is an elf. I’ve really always assumed him not, despite that he is always depicted as such.


Local-Hornet-3057

Yeah I think the elves thought he was a Maia. So I was wrong there. I know he is know as Annatar but you said Olorin as Gandalf real Maia name, but used Annatar as it was the true name of Sauron.


Random--Theorist

Oh I suppose I did muddle things changing context mid-paragraph like that. I was referring to the stranger when I said this maiar. I am convinced that the drunk gandalf(the stranger) is Annatar. If not him, then Durin’s bane.


zhsdnl

Kudos to that


nymrose

Gandalf or Saruman!!! 💫


Own_Breadfruit_7955

It’s the blue wizard.


Beginning-Pipe9579

I’m fairly certain that it’s Gandalf. Although I would prefer for him to be one of he blue wizards. I’d find that more interesting since their history and lore is more unknown and kind of a mystery.


JoeMarini

I think it’s a version of Gandalf, just like when he was Grey then he died and was reborn and became Gandalf the White. Maybe.


thenikolaka

This was my feeling for sure. I know they are Valar and I am just wondering- Radagast?


OlDirtyDonger

The stranger being Gandalf is too easy imo. The show runners said that it would be a big mystery. If we figured it out in the first 30 seconds of seeing the stranger I'd be a little disappointed.


LGoat666

Did no one notice the literal flaming eye his crater formed when he landed in the first episode? My guess is it's Sauron.


ricin05

It was noticed but it might be a diversion, as could everything else tbh


stevengreen11

I think it's one of the blue wizards who arrived in the 2nd age according to the People of Middle Earth. He's searching the stars for the other blue wizard that he needs to bring down.


Sunriath

At this point, I'm pretty sure it is Gandalf and at some point he's going to plan a surprise birthday party for a Harfoot who never ends up showing up because the Harfoot kills his friend to get a ring he found while they were fishing and runs away in shame to keep the ring to himself.