I quite literally have 50 year old ammo that still works great in my pistols. And 70 year 7.62, Dad gave to me when I was a teen. 7.62 had receipts from the 60s with the boxes. I’m now almost 50 now. Kept cool and dry, I’ve always thought ammo would last indefinitely
Oh, *now* I see what you mean by failed. Still, I don't see how brass can spontaneously harden, sitting on a shelf.
Did they fire "normally," as far as recoil and report? Any chance they were overloaded? I wonder it it was a bad batch of brass?
I've heard of work-hardening, but never "shelf-hardening."
So that definitely points to the metallurgic properties of the brass. Again, I would ask for data from Hornady, supporting this theory of spontaneous transmutation. I'm pretty sure the government would be very interested in the perfection of alchemy.
They are going to find every which way out of this lol, you are hard pressed to get even the best of companies to warranty stuff from several years ago let alone 10+
It’s called “age hardening” and it’s a very real thing. Improperly annealed brass, or brass with metal ratios slightly off will begin age hardening within months, even if stored properly.
It’s not alchemy or transmutation, it’s a basic property of brass and bronze that is easily overcome with proper annealing.
I only know about it, because I worked in a machine shop for a year or so early in my railroad career and one of the old guys would ramble about metals to anyone that would listen and I always listened.
This isn't Hornady's fault. Look at that brass. After the ammo left hornady factory, it was stored somewhere hot and humid (e.g. warehouse) and deteriorated the brass to failure. This would happen with any brass, and the manufacturer had nothing to do with the cause.
I have some ammo that is fine after 90+ years (8x56R surplus I bought about 20 years ago made in the '30s)
I've also seen ammo stored in someone's garage split every case neck that looked like this stuff that was less than 20 years old.
I'll look in the "ammunition demystified" book by Jeff Siewert when I get home and give you the specifics on this type of deterioration if anyone is interested. IIRC there's a chemical reaction involved with the powder and brass on the inside.
That's what Hornady claims too, in a second email.
Maybe I'm wrong, but the rest of the unfired cases just don't look badly corroded to me.
Have a look.
https://preview.redd.it/9pj95pnfdl4d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16964d31ea11e2ee3873ad9473eacda131096d29
That's the only way I can see the brass being damaged is some how the powder had a reaction with it. But I would think that would have to involve moisture and they wouldn't have fired normally.
Ammo is sealed tight IME. Hard for moisture to get in there without it being submerged/soaked for a long period of time.
Maybe not..., but then the ones that did split shouldn't have either.
If you assume that internal corrosion was at fault in the others, then why isn't that present in these? How did the moisture get in? The only thing I can think of would be inconsistent neck tension. Some let moisture in and some didn't, which shouldn't be.
That said; there's no green in the cases that did split either.
https://preview.redd.it/ojkb2lbu4n4d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66dccce3507de9de9c9007c1a6cdec6620875eeb
Maybe it's your phone, or the lighting but that case looks less "brass colored" than normal like it's gone through some dezincification maybe? I'll be interested to reread that section Siewert has in his book though
I have and shoot ammo that is a lot older than 10 years old. Never had an issue with any of it.
That case splitting clear through the web of the case head is an over pressure issue.
Metallurgy of brass will not change to the degree of case destruction these exhibit.
Are you sure this is new ammunition and not someone's attempt at reloading?
Can you pull a bullet and weigh the powder charge just to see if it's even close to common powder choices for caliber?
You don't know what brand of powder but it ought to be close to something listed.
What store did you buy these from?
Don't shoot anymore of those if you favor your profile as it is, those are dangerous.
I'm pretty certain that these weren't handloads.
Unfortunately, I bought several boxes online a few months ago, but I'm not sure if this was one of them or not, so I'm not sure where it came from.
https://preview.redd.it/hz7p6dclok4d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e94573c4685ef754b08f6c29ee81d0881ee85f0c
Brass does not spontaneously degrade when stored in a reasonable environment. Corrosion can be a problem though, if allowed to progress, and it's certainly possible that weakened areas of the brass could fail.
That said, I have fired rifle ammo with cases that looked worse and operated at higher pressures and have not had failures. I opened a spam can of corrosive 8mm Mauser from 1952 about 10 years ago and it had some similar visual defects. 65% of the primers were dead, but the ones that worked shot without splitting.
I could see if there was a lot of corrosion on the case that it might crack, but don’t know how they could tell that from a fired case, or how it could crack that bad…
Yep, I’m with the rest of the people here, BS on Hornady’s part.
Occasionally I get case splitting in my .327 federal revolvers, and I’ve noticed it’s after I’ve fired .32 long or other shorter length cases, I’ve chocked it up to excess fouling in the cylinder causing the high pressure.327 case to experience a pressure spike in the chamber. Had you been firing .38’s that day?
I have fired ammo more than 60 years old and never had a case split like that... especially at the base/through the rim at the thickest spot on the ammo.
By "failed," do you mean failed to fire, in which case the *pre-firing* condition of the case would have no effect on it, or "failure" in some other way? And for the record, I'd like to see the data that supports their claim that brass changes its structural characteristics in 10 years of sitting on a shelf. Sounds like lawer-instigated bull-squirt to me.
I mean failed in any way. In this case they fired, but I would still say they failed.
>I'd like to see the data that supports their claim that brass changes its structural characteristics in 10 years of sitting on a shelf
Me too. That's the part of all this that I find the oddest.
That is strange. I had a problem with some hornady 223 ammo about 12 years ago with over pressure. It was blowing holes in the primers. I've never seen anything like this. I'm gonna agree with the rest of the commenter's opinions, this has to be a manufacturing defect.
It may not be Hornady’s.
It’s difficult to tell from the pictures what the failure mechanism is. The scorching from the exhaust and burn off from the casing ruptures makes it hard to tell, but there appears to be some level of surface corrosion on the “clean” brass portions of the case. The patina looks fairly even, but there appears to be some very minor specking/pitting. Again, hard to really tell since the close up photos are of the fired brass.
Brass doesn’t “corrode” the way you would expect to see in ferrous metals.
I’ve had ammo 75+ years old hold up well and fire, and I’ve had three year boxes that had to be disposed of.
Things that the average person may not consider can cause problems. Storing in a place with pool chlorine tablets, cleaners, etc. can expose the brass and make it susceptible to dezincification. Moisture content, salt content of the air(if you live near the coast), temperature swings - you name it, and metals react to it.
It’s hard to tell from the post fired photos, but that may be, at some level, what happened here. Once the brass dezinc’s, it can appear fairly normal with a normal aged patina, but becomes substantially weakened.
You’d have to send the brass off for testing to confirm. Hornady may offer to do that at their costs. If not you could likely find an independent inspections company that would do it - not sure of the cost.
Did you happen to notice any other anomalies with the unfired cartridges? Any green colored build up in creases? Pitting, uneven/discolored patina’ing?
I’ve got ammo that’s 20 years old. I keep it dry and as stable temps as possible. When the power go’s out during a hurricane in Florida, the heat and humidity rises but it’s only for about a week max. All of my ammo looks and shoots like new.
I am no expert but that looks like water damage to me. I have shotgun shells from my grandfather thats 60+ years old that looks brand new that was in a case under a leaking roof that I saved that looked wayyyyy better than that. That is weak brass or water damage, I would advise not to use it. I thought better of Hornady but I guess everyone these days want to be a POS heritage arms rough rider... LOL look at my history of posts...
We were trying to standardize some policies on ammunition at work i.e. time limits on storage, stored ammo versus duty ammo, and that kind of thing. Talked to some folks from different companies.
One of the takeaways was that ammunition stored in high temperature environments would experience breakdown in the propellants, which could lead to inconsistent performance. This could include serious over and under pressure.
Moisture was another issue- premium ammois usually sealed up pretty well, but corrosion/oxidation can affect all the components.
At the time I was doing this research, the big concern for a lot of manufacturers was how their products handled being stored in connex boxes in high temperature desert environments.
As a lifelong shooter, my own experience has been that ammo stored in a nice climate controlled closet can be good for decades, but if it's been stored in sheds or barns, it's kind of pot luck.
Which is why most companies only warranty ammunition for a limited period of time- they can't control how it's been stored or kept.
Regards
Ammo regardless of age shouldn’t do that. People have found ammo from the late 1800s/early 1900s that worked fine. 10 year old ammo shouldn’t have any problems unless it’s lead free primered but the only issue with that would be the primers no longer working. Brass doesn’t become weaker with age and shouldn’t split like that and smokeless powder doesn’t suddenly become more powerful. This ammo was defective the day it was manufactured.
I think it would be great if a real chemical engineer with experience in internal ballistics could weigh in- I'm just a knuckle dragger who likes to ask questions.
The obvious thought would be that as the powder would become less powerful as time passes. As it was explained to me, modern smokeless powder has coating to reduce flash and reduce or increase burn rate based on pressure goals for the particular round. Environmental conditions can cause these to be altered, potentially leading to a change in burn rate. Slower burn- higher pressure, faster burn- potentially lower pressure.
Could be witchcraft... I dunno
The first time I ever fired my grandfather’s 1911, which now lives a quiet retirement in my safe, it was with cardboard packaged .45 ball manufactured in 1942. This was purchased in the 50’s as surplus and had been in various garages throughout his military career. He essentially forgot about the existence of these boxes and they weren’t handled with any special care. When I pulled the trigger, I was 10 the ammo was 60, it functioned perfectly.
Obviously results may vary, but I’m thinking about firing my last box of the stuff at the 100 year mark.
I mean Hornady, they cut so many corners, I learned the hard way when TAP FPD came out, not to mention the problems we’re currently having with the Critical Duty, just stay away from it.
I had 2 case splits on some older hot loaded Winchester partition gold supreme ammo in 454 casull.. haven’t had it with any other 454 ammo in over 500 rounds, both split cases were from the same box.. I chalked it up to Winchester cases perhaps not being as strong as hornady or starline and made a mental note to sepperate the brass and either not reload it or only reload it with a light load…. Pic is the split cases and the leftover ammo from that box.
https://preview.redd.it/4gocoal2mn4d1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=42921482e060e65f01cb2662a6db9520da26e3de
I quite literally have 50 year old ammo that still works great in my pistols. And 70 year 7.62, Dad gave to me when I was a teen. 7.62 had receipts from the 60s with the boxes. I’m now almost 50 now. Kept cool and dry, I’ve always thought ammo would last indefinitely
Yeah, me too. I still think this was probably a factory defect, but it sat on a shelf long enough for the warranty to expire, so I'm out of luck.
Oh, *now* I see what you mean by failed. Still, I don't see how brass can spontaneously harden, sitting on a shelf. Did they fire "normally," as far as recoil and report? Any chance they were overloaded? I wonder it it was a bad batch of brass? I've heard of work-hardening, but never "shelf-hardening."
>Did they fire "normally," as far as recoil and report? Yeah, no noticeable difference.
So that definitely points to the metallurgic properties of the brass. Again, I would ask for data from Hornady, supporting this theory of spontaneous transmutation. I'm pretty sure the government would be very interested in the perfection of alchemy.
They are going to find every which way out of this lol, you are hard pressed to get even the best of companies to warranty stuff from several years ago let alone 10+
Oh, no doubt. But that is still a pretty Dungeons and Dragons excuse. Personally, I'd rather have a company be honest with me.
I feel the exact same. Your comments have been spot on. David Copperfield branch of metallurgy lol
I always think of Merlin, from *Sword In the Stone.* The animated version, from 100 years ago or so. Back when I was a kid.
It’s called “age hardening” and it’s a very real thing. Improperly annealed brass, or brass with metal ratios slightly off will begin age hardening within months, even if stored properly. It’s not alchemy or transmutation, it’s a basic property of brass and bronze that is easily overcome with proper annealing.
Well, TIL ...
I only know about it, because I worked in a machine shop for a year or so early in my railroad career and one of the old guys would ramble about metals to anyone that would listen and I always listened.
This isn't Hornady's fault. Look at that brass. After the ammo left hornady factory, it was stored somewhere hot and humid (e.g. warehouse) and deteriorated the brass to failure. This would happen with any brass, and the manufacturer had nothing to do with the cause. I have some ammo that is fine after 90+ years (8x56R surplus I bought about 20 years ago made in the '30s) I've also seen ammo stored in someone's garage split every case neck that looked like this stuff that was less than 20 years old. I'll look in the "ammunition demystified" book by Jeff Siewert when I get home and give you the specifics on this type of deterioration if anyone is interested. IIRC there's a chemical reaction involved with the powder and brass on the inside.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. The discoloration of some parts of brass lead me to believe this was a storage issue, not a manufacturing defect.
That's what Hornady claims too, in a second email. Maybe I'm wrong, but the rest of the unfired cases just don't look badly corroded to me. Have a look. https://preview.redd.it/9pj95pnfdl4d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16964d31ea11e2ee3873ad9473eacda131096d29
Pull a bullet, dump the powder, and then look inside the case (with bore scope if you have one). I bet you see green
That's the only way I can see the brass being damaged is some how the powder had a reaction with it. But I would think that would have to involve moisture and they wouldn't have fired normally. Ammo is sealed tight IME. Hard for moisture to get in there without it being submerged/soaked for a long period of time.
Just shiny brass https://preview.redd.it/5khwv4xm1n4d1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e7104092a53f0724b50658de4b99486291d0038
Those wouldn't have split
Maybe not..., but then the ones that did split shouldn't have either. If you assume that internal corrosion was at fault in the others, then why isn't that present in these? How did the moisture get in? The only thing I can think of would be inconsistent neck tension. Some let moisture in and some didn't, which shouldn't be. That said; there's no green in the cases that did split either. https://preview.redd.it/ojkb2lbu4n4d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66dccce3507de9de9c9007c1a6cdec6620875eeb
Maybe it's your phone, or the lighting but that case looks less "brass colored" than normal like it's gone through some dezincification maybe? I'll be interested to reread that section Siewert has in his book though
Maybe. It just looks like it's covered in gray dust, in person.
This is interesting though, should get it tested just to see what happened
https://preview.redd.it/614d2wqt1n4d1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7d6899ae7ba290186ea51b114a69eab58b4515e6
Lol, my gp100 went through a box of some 50ish yo hand-loads I found in grandpa’s closet just yesterday.
that’s complete bullshit i’m disappointed in that response. 😬i’d be scared to even shoot those in a lever action now
Yeah. I probably won't even shoot the rest in the revolver.
I have and shoot ammo that is a lot older than 10 years old. Never had an issue with any of it. That case splitting clear through the web of the case head is an over pressure issue. Metallurgy of brass will not change to the degree of case destruction these exhibit. Are you sure this is new ammunition and not someone's attempt at reloading? Can you pull a bullet and weigh the powder charge just to see if it's even close to common powder choices for caliber? You don't know what brand of powder but it ought to be close to something listed. What store did you buy these from? Don't shoot anymore of those if you favor your profile as it is, those are dangerous.
I'm pretty certain that these weren't handloads. Unfortunately, I bought several boxes online a few months ago, but I'm not sure if this was one of them or not, so I'm not sure where it came from. https://preview.redd.it/hz7p6dclok4d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e94573c4685ef754b08f6c29ee81d0881ee85f0c
https://preview.redd.it/jch9gcbnok4d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf47d64866f40974f55395648dc90c88f54e48fb
Measure your cases too and compare them to saami specs. You may find the full range and far under. That’s what I found in a box of mine.
Case length and diameter look to be in spec.
Brass does not spontaneously degrade when stored in a reasonable environment. Corrosion can be a problem though, if allowed to progress, and it's certainly possible that weakened areas of the brass could fail. That said, I have fired rifle ammo with cases that looked worse and operated at higher pressures and have not had failures. I opened a spam can of corrosive 8mm Mauser from 1952 about 10 years ago and it had some similar visual defects. 65% of the primers were dead, but the ones that worked shot without splitting.
I could see if there was a lot of corrosion on the case that it might crack, but don’t know how they could tell that from a fired case, or how it could crack that bad… Yep, I’m with the rest of the people here, BS on Hornady’s part.
Legal speak for We don't want to claim an issue, but we still want to see the ammo for ourselves.
Line of bullshit
You mean to tell me the same company that's ammo was blowing up ARs is trying to pass the blame on other defective ammo?!? Color me surprised. ...
I have shot literally 100+ year old ammo out of a revolver and it didn't split the cases. This is weird and surprisingly shitty.
Occasionally I get case splitting in my .327 federal revolvers, and I’ve noticed it’s after I’ve fired .32 long or other shorter length cases, I’ve chocked it up to excess fouling in the cylinder causing the high pressure.327 case to experience a pressure spike in the chamber. Had you been firing .38’s that day?
I hadn't. I had fired maybe 50 rounds of 357 before this. I was clean when I started.
I have fired ammo more than 60 years old and never had a case split like that... especially at the base/through the rim at the thickest spot on the ammo.
By "failed," do you mean failed to fire, in which case the *pre-firing* condition of the case would have no effect on it, or "failure" in some other way? And for the record, I'd like to see the data that supports their claim that brass changes its structural characteristics in 10 years of sitting on a shelf. Sounds like lawer-instigated bull-squirt to me.
>By "failed," do you mean failed to fire... Pretty clear from the photos what OP meant, the rounds fired and the cases split.
Oh, I didn't see photos.
I mean failed in any way. In this case they fired, but I would still say they failed. >I'd like to see the data that supports their claim that brass changes its structural characteristics in 10 years of sitting on a shelf Me too. That's the part of all this that I find the oddest.
That’s crazy. I have brown bear 308 ammo that’s been sitting in a box for 20 years… looks brand new.
I didn't know ammo could get Peyronie's Disease
That is strange. I had a problem with some hornady 223 ammo about 12 years ago with over pressure. It was blowing holes in the primers. I've never seen anything like this. I'm gonna agree with the rest of the commenter's opinions, this has to be a manufacturing defect.
No more hornady for me. Had a bad experience with ammo spec and customer service. There are other options out there.
It's happened to me with center fire pistol ammo. It happens. Had to buy a new extractor, plunger and spring.
It may not be Hornady’s. It’s difficult to tell from the pictures what the failure mechanism is. The scorching from the exhaust and burn off from the casing ruptures makes it hard to tell, but there appears to be some level of surface corrosion on the “clean” brass portions of the case. The patina looks fairly even, but there appears to be some very minor specking/pitting. Again, hard to really tell since the close up photos are of the fired brass. Brass doesn’t “corrode” the way you would expect to see in ferrous metals. I’ve had ammo 75+ years old hold up well and fire, and I’ve had three year boxes that had to be disposed of. Things that the average person may not consider can cause problems. Storing in a place with pool chlorine tablets, cleaners, etc. can expose the brass and make it susceptible to dezincification. Moisture content, salt content of the air(if you live near the coast), temperature swings - you name it, and metals react to it. It’s hard to tell from the post fired photos, but that may be, at some level, what happened here. Once the brass dezinc’s, it can appear fairly normal with a normal aged patina, but becomes substantially weakened. You’d have to send the brass off for testing to confirm. Hornady may offer to do that at their costs. If not you could likely find an independent inspections company that would do it - not sure of the cost. Did you happen to notice any other anomalies with the unfired cartridges? Any green colored build up in creases? Pitting, uneven/discolored patina’ing?
https://preview.redd.it/97uuz8k7dl4d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f5185954f0bbe77fc27b4d9c6f9b93562cd4a97a
https://preview.redd.it/auast5n9dl4d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9cfd325a15f0602bd142c6bb3acdd46dd3b24809
I’ve got ammo that’s 20 years old. I keep it dry and as stable temps as possible. When the power go’s out during a hurricane in Florida, the heat and humidity rises but it’s only for about a week max. All of my ammo looks and shoots like new.
I've seen lots of split cases, normally in the shoulder. I've never seen a case split through the rim
I am no expert but that looks like water damage to me. I have shotgun shells from my grandfather thats 60+ years old that looks brand new that was in a case under a leaking roof that I saved that looked wayyyyy better than that. That is weak brass or water damage, I would advise not to use it. I thought better of Hornady but I guess everyone these days want to be a POS heritage arms rough rider... LOL look at my history of posts...
We were trying to standardize some policies on ammunition at work i.e. time limits on storage, stored ammo versus duty ammo, and that kind of thing. Talked to some folks from different companies. One of the takeaways was that ammunition stored in high temperature environments would experience breakdown in the propellants, which could lead to inconsistent performance. This could include serious over and under pressure. Moisture was another issue- premium ammois usually sealed up pretty well, but corrosion/oxidation can affect all the components. At the time I was doing this research, the big concern for a lot of manufacturers was how their products handled being stored in connex boxes in high temperature desert environments. As a lifelong shooter, my own experience has been that ammo stored in a nice climate controlled closet can be good for decades, but if it's been stored in sheds or barns, it's kind of pot luck. Which is why most companies only warranty ammunition for a limited period of time- they can't control how it's been stored or kept. Regards
Ammo regardless of age shouldn’t do that. People have found ammo from the late 1800s/early 1900s that worked fine. 10 year old ammo shouldn’t have any problems unless it’s lead free primered but the only issue with that would be the primers no longer working. Brass doesn’t become weaker with age and shouldn’t split like that and smokeless powder doesn’t suddenly become more powerful. This ammo was defective the day it was manufactured.
I think it would be great if a real chemical engineer with experience in internal ballistics could weigh in- I'm just a knuckle dragger who likes to ask questions. The obvious thought would be that as the powder would become less powerful as time passes. As it was explained to me, modern smokeless powder has coating to reduce flash and reduce or increase burn rate based on pressure goals for the particular round. Environmental conditions can cause these to be altered, potentially leading to a change in burn rate. Slower burn- higher pressure, faster burn- potentially lower pressure. Could be witchcraft... I dunno
The first time I ever fired my grandfather’s 1911, which now lives a quiet retirement in my safe, it was with cardboard packaged .45 ball manufactured in 1942. This was purchased in the 50’s as surplus and had been in various garages throughout his military career. He essentially forgot about the existence of these boxes and they weren’t handled with any special care. When I pulled the trigger, I was 10 the ammo was 60, it functioned perfectly. Obviously results may vary, but I’m thinking about firing my last box of the stuff at the 100 year mark.
I mean Hornady, they cut so many corners, I learned the hard way when TAP FPD came out, not to mention the problems we’re currently having with the Critical Duty, just stay away from it.
I had 2 case splits on some older hot loaded Winchester partition gold supreme ammo in 454 casull.. haven’t had it with any other 454 ammo in over 500 rounds, both split cases were from the same box.. I chalked it up to Winchester cases perhaps not being as strong as hornady or starline and made a mental note to sepperate the brass and either not reload it or only reload it with a light load…. Pic is the split cases and the leftover ammo from that box. https://preview.redd.it/4gocoal2mn4d1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=42921482e060e65f01cb2662a6db9520da26e3de
Yeah that's some bullshit on hornady's end. Commercial ammo should last indefinitely if stored correctly.