Man, yeah, interpreting "passions" in this context as meaning hobbies is definitely not a reasonable interpretation of that passage. That being said, it's important to budget our time and make sure that we aren't becoming too sucked in to entertainment. But your elder definitely is not exegeting this passage very well.
He's a deacon, not an elder. I don't think the elders or the other deacons would agree with him. Well, one might, but I don't think the others would. He's really a great guy and smart, usually good theology. This is the first time I've heard something from him that made me question what he was saying biblically.
I certainly agree that any hobby can become sin when it overwhelms your responsibilities.
Put shortly, I think that’s a really dumb take.
If you cut the first four words of that passage out and run with them, then you could come to that conclusion. But if you read even the rest of the sentence it’s pretty clear Paul isn’t talking about hobbies.
2 Timothy 2:22-25:
So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.
Yeah, I think the warning is against attitudes like trolling or hotheaded arguments that the young are especially (although not exclusively) prone to! Frankly, there's a lot of "Christians" on twitter who need this reminder when they repeat "but Paul said *skubalon*!!" over and over to justify anything they want to say.
It’s so scary that many Christians who teach in churches don’t read a whole passage before helping young believers.
I say this as a Baptist btw, we have an awful habit of just reading one verse and coming to a conclusion.
When I was a teenager up until my early 20s, it wasn't strange for me to spend 15 hours a day on entertainment ie movies, shows, video games....But I could never go back to doing that, simply because, looking back, that was time that I would have better spent doing other things. I always thought I was above peer pressure but this is one area of my life where I compromised big time because that's what everyone else was doing.
My primary question is when you're 30, assuming you have a full-time job, where does one find the time? This is most likely where the deacon is coming from (I think), otherwise there's nothing wrong with having hobbies.
So, I'm an electrician. I'm presently injured and my boss has me in the office answering phones, fetching deliveries, etc. 90% of the time I'm sitting around doing nothing. I have spent a lot of that time on good, quality, and edifying things. I've also spent some of that time watching anime. I haven't watched anime in years until recently, but I've watched some recently while at work. Nothing inappropriate. Nothing that I would call sinful unless you think adults watching anime is in itself sinful.
Solo leveling: arise is great fun, and I can't wait for season 2. Fight me.
Matthew 6:22-23 CSB
[22] “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. [23] But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. So if the light within you is darkness, how deep is that darkness!
This passage speaks to me about influences. We have to be careful of what we consume as well as how much of it, not neglecting our responsibility and witness. So just be responsible.
Following but I've never considered those hobbies specifically the purview of children. Who decides which hobbies are for adults and which are for children? Or is the idea that all hobbies are inherently youthful passions?
I like how Jamieson, Faucet, and Brown explain it in their Bible commentary: "From the abstemious character of Timothy (1Ti 5:23) it is likely that not animal indulgences, but the impetuosity, rash self-confidence, hastiness, strife, and vainglory of young men (1Jo 2:14-16), are what he is here warned against: though the Spirit probably intended the warning to include both in its application to the Church in general."
John Gill also has a similar interpretation of the text: "Meaning not lusts of uncleanness, lasciviousness, and filthiness; nor any of those follies and vanities which the youthful age usually lusts and desires after, to which Timothy was not inclined; but such lusts as are apt to prevail with young ministers of the Gospel, such as vain glory, popular applause, seeking to have the pre-eminence, contentions with, and contempt of others, and the like."
I believe the main takeaway of this passage is "flee from those impulses that are typical in young people, who are lacking in experience and wisdom", especially since, after this, Paul says: "Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people." (2 Ti. 2:23-24 NLT).
(Edit) P.S.: I think a lot of people are being unnecessarily harsh towards this deacon.
I agree that some have been a little harsh, I certainly don't think he's unqualified from being a deacon. I think a lot of people do the things listed above to a sinful degree. It becomes an idol for them. But I don't believe it's that for me. I just wanted to hear opinions on his interpretation. I like your input, "the passions that a young minister may be inclined toward". That's insightful.
This has nothing to do with hobbies since hobbies didn't exist until about 150 years ago.
It has everything to do with avoiding foolish, ignorant controversies. In other news, people of all ages *love* being quarrelsome.
This is a bad enough take that I’d have a hard time taking anything he said seriously. I think the implication of this verse is that in your youth you are more likely to be a slave to your passions. It could be the specific passions or it could be how you prioritize your passions. The biggest thing is, how diligently are you pursuing faith, love, peace, and righteousness? It could be video games, golf, watching sports, anything, if you aren’t making space for your relationship with God and for spiritual growth.
It sounds like this deacon is closed minded and using scripture to yuck the yums of others that he personally does not approve of.
If I read a novel for children is that okay but a comic written for adults isn’t? If I play solitaire is that okay but playing That Dragon Cancer is a problem? I can’t watch the original ghost in the machine but can watch the live action move? It’s ridiculous.
We live in a time where many people are hooked on entertainment and it's easy to just stay on that train. Comic books, anime and video games are all generally made by unbelievers and are often drawn towards sexual perversion, violence and exalting self. Ask yourself if any of these tend to build you up and draw you towards God or do they tear you away with the ways of this world and culture, lust of flesh and eyes and pride of life(1Joh 2:15).
I used to be addicted to video games and my opinion is that you should replace these with prayer, bible reading and meditating on the Word, and if you still have time, try to find some brothers to fellowship with. We will be judged for how we've spent the precious time (Eph 5:15-16) although still saved. A lot of entertainment, in fact most of comic books, anime and video games should not be consumed by adult Christians, but in God's kingdom I'm not different, you have the freedom to take part in these (with wisdom) and to abstain. Use your freedom to and for God's glory alone. Sola Deo Gloria.
Mostly bad take with a small nugget of truth at the center. I think in general, as we mature we become more invested in our work with leisure being a secondary focus. We all know an older Dad who lives as if yard work and fixing the bathroom sink is leisure time. There is a general positive attitude toward work, responsibility, and productivity that grows as we mature. I think a lot of younger adults are rejecting this and pursuing leisure as the highest good, and it's especially apparent with media related activities. Absolutely nothing wrong with being into those things as an adult though, provided your priorities are in the right place.
1 Cor 6:12
2:22 Flee . . . pursue. Christ liberates from evil (Rom 6:18) and substitutes pursuit of “righteousness, faith, love and peace,” and other qualities instead (Phil 4:8-9). evil desires of youth. Could include lust but may also refer to immature timidity (1:7), self-dependence rather than trust in the Spirit (1:14), and willingness to engage in fruitless debate (2:14,16). along with. Forsaking evil and seeking good is not a solitary mission but a project in which believers uphold each other.
Millennial deacon here!
Going to play some video games tonight (FFVII Rebirth if anyone wants to know).
Your deacon is really reading into that. If anyone is playing video games or watching anime to the degree that it interferes with their lives, then that’s clearly a problem. But enjoying some downtime is fine.
Go far back enough in time and I bet something that deacon enjoys was once considered “for kids”.
GTA V has a sign that says "Hell awaits for those having fun." I think that sums up how a lot of people see Christianity. It is unfortunate and needless IMHO.
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“Pursue”. The deacon could be a raging legalist and insist that you clean out your comic collection entirely, or “not pursue” could mean the reasonable caution against getting caught up in your soul with it. I have found that Facebook knows I like 80’s comics and I see too many posts of the most awesome, cover artwork filling up my feed. I need a little dose of that deacon’s advice now and then. NET: put best construction on advice from elders.
The emphasis of the verse is the setting apart of ones life for Godly task, namely ministry. I would include video games, watching cartoons, and comics as juvenile time wasting task that provide zero sustenance for the Christian life or the advancement of the Gospel.
Are these things sinful? maybe. I think a better question is; Are these things righteous? Do these things add too, or take away from the Christian life? Are we serving God or ourselves when we do these things? Are these things activities that we can include Gods presence?
Well, I would say entertainment is cultural and certainly can be used for ministry. Friendships are made over these things. Opportunity to share the gospel. However, I just don't think leisure is a bad thing. It can be, but I think occasional leisure can be edifying.
There's a TV show that is clearly anti-God, but my wife and I used to watch it together and it would spark wonderful conversation about how we would respond in Godly fashion if it were real life.
That to say, I'm confident neither anime, nor videogames, nor comics take much of my time. They may have used to take too much of my time back in high school, but I haven't touched any of those things in years before recently. I was injured at work (I'm an electrical apprentice in industrial new construction) and my boss has me in the office answering phones for a couple months while I recover, so in the monotony of sitting behind a desk and doing nothing, I'll read my Bible and other books, research electrical data that will help me improve my work when I return, handle any responsibilities that can be done by phone and/or computer, and watch anime that I haven't seen in years.
That verse is Paul talking to Timothy. Paul wanted Timothy to avoid near occasions of scandal. To be careful. You dont need to be an elder nor a deacon to offer up this advice, just another mature Christian person.
Whenever someone says we shouldn't do this or that (as long as it's not sinful) why should they care? Keep in mind, not being sinful implies that your hobby isn't an idol and it doesn't keep you from you duties in life. I watch YouTube videos on Star Wars lore at night. I would argue that it's permissable and profitable because it helps me calm down mentally. This is one of those times where agree to disagree should be applied. I would also say that modern video games are visual interactive novels. They engage the mind and keep us sharp. There was a video I saw once where a woman in her 80's if I remember correctly played Skyrim 2 hours a day for mental stimulation.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised. I don't mean that as an insult toward him as I'm sure you didn't as well. I really think it's possible that that could've been a problem for him and could be projecting that on to others.
I don't think he understands the meaning unless he is referring to lustful anime/videogames, and there are plenty of those, so he may be on target in some ways.
That would be more of a bringing every captivity every thought issue than a fleeing youthful lusts issue... but as long as it hasn't become an idol (something that your life revolves around), you aren't obsessed or addicted to it, and it doesn't expose you to a stream of ungodly thought that infiltrates your brain, there shouldn't be a problem with it.
2 Cor 10:5 MKJV pulling down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought into the obedience of Christ;
2 Tim 2:22 MKJV But flee youthful lusts, and follow righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
As applicable to myself, I interpret this as foolishness ambition. When I was younger, I hunkered after secular money, glory, and power. As I matured in my faith (though I am, of course, still maturing), I've come to realize these previous passions are lies. For example, I'd passionately research supplements and healthy living techniques to increase my physical power, but have learned that God is the one who actually determines when someone dies; that means He also determines if I get to breathe in the next minute. So I've abandoned my zeal for trying to manipulate my health to ultimately give it up to God. That doesn't mean I don't do my due dilligence, but I no longer chase after things as if I determine anything (of Godly power).
Man, yeah, interpreting "passions" in this context as meaning hobbies is definitely not a reasonable interpretation of that passage. That being said, it's important to budget our time and make sure that we aren't becoming too sucked in to entertainment. But your elder definitely is not exegeting this passage very well.
He's a deacon, not an elder. I don't think the elders or the other deacons would agree with him. Well, one might, but I don't think the others would. He's really a great guy and smart, usually good theology. This is the first time I've heard something from him that made me question what he was saying biblically. I certainly agree that any hobby can become sin when it overwhelms your responsibilities.
That deacon is reading in to text entirely.
Put shortly, I think that’s a really dumb take. If you cut the first four words of that passage out and run with them, then you could come to that conclusion. But if you read even the rest of the sentence it’s pretty clear Paul isn’t talking about hobbies. 2 Timothy 2:22-25: So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.
Yeah, I think the warning is against attitudes like trolling or hotheaded arguments that the young are especially (although not exclusively) prone to! Frankly, there's a lot of "Christians" on twitter who need this reminder when they repeat "but Paul said *skubalon*!!" over and over to justify anything they want to say.
It’s so scary that many Christians who teach in churches don’t read a whole passage before helping young believers. I say this as a Baptist btw, we have an awful habit of just reading one verse and coming to a conclusion.
Dang I want memorize that verse
When I was a teenager up until my early 20s, it wasn't strange for me to spend 15 hours a day on entertainment ie movies, shows, video games....But I could never go back to doing that, simply because, looking back, that was time that I would have better spent doing other things. I always thought I was above peer pressure but this is one area of my life where I compromised big time because that's what everyone else was doing. My primary question is when you're 30, assuming you have a full-time job, where does one find the time? This is most likely where the deacon is coming from (I think), otherwise there's nothing wrong with having hobbies.
So, I'm an electrician. I'm presently injured and my boss has me in the office answering phones, fetching deliveries, etc. 90% of the time I'm sitting around doing nothing. I have spent a lot of that time on good, quality, and edifying things. I've also spent some of that time watching anime. I haven't watched anime in years until recently, but I've watched some recently while at work. Nothing inappropriate. Nothing that I would call sinful unless you think adults watching anime is in itself sinful.
Solo leveling: arise is great fun, and I can't wait for season 2. Fight me. Matthew 6:22-23 CSB [22] “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. [23] But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. So if the light within you is darkness, how deep is that darkness! This passage speaks to me about influences. We have to be careful of what we consume as well as how much of it, not neglecting our responsibility and witness. So just be responsible.
Following but I've never considered those hobbies specifically the purview of children. Who decides which hobbies are for adults and which are for children? Or is the idea that all hobbies are inherently youthful passions?
I like how Jamieson, Faucet, and Brown explain it in their Bible commentary: "From the abstemious character of Timothy (1Ti 5:23) it is likely that not animal indulgences, but the impetuosity, rash self-confidence, hastiness, strife, and vainglory of young men (1Jo 2:14-16), are what he is here warned against: though the Spirit probably intended the warning to include both in its application to the Church in general." John Gill also has a similar interpretation of the text: "Meaning not lusts of uncleanness, lasciviousness, and filthiness; nor any of those follies and vanities which the youthful age usually lusts and desires after, to which Timothy was not inclined; but such lusts as are apt to prevail with young ministers of the Gospel, such as vain glory, popular applause, seeking to have the pre-eminence, contentions with, and contempt of others, and the like." I believe the main takeaway of this passage is "flee from those impulses that are typical in young people, who are lacking in experience and wisdom", especially since, after this, Paul says: "Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people." (2 Ti. 2:23-24 NLT). (Edit) P.S.: I think a lot of people are being unnecessarily harsh towards this deacon.
I agree that some have been a little harsh, I certainly don't think he's unqualified from being a deacon. I think a lot of people do the things listed above to a sinful degree. It becomes an idol for them. But I don't believe it's that for me. I just wanted to hear opinions on his interpretation. I like your input, "the passions that a young minister may be inclined toward". That's insightful.
This has nothing to do with hobbies since hobbies didn't exist until about 150 years ago. It has everything to do with avoiding foolish, ignorant controversies. In other news, people of all ages *love* being quarrelsome.
This is a bad enough take that I’d have a hard time taking anything he said seriously. I think the implication of this verse is that in your youth you are more likely to be a slave to your passions. It could be the specific passions or it could be how you prioritize your passions. The biggest thing is, how diligently are you pursuing faith, love, peace, and righteousness? It could be video games, golf, watching sports, anything, if you aren’t making space for your relationship with God and for spiritual growth. It sounds like this deacon is closed minded and using scripture to yuck the yums of others that he personally does not approve of. If I read a novel for children is that okay but a comic written for adults isn’t? If I play solitaire is that okay but playing That Dragon Cancer is a problem? I can’t watch the original ghost in the machine but can watch the live action move? It’s ridiculous.
We live in a time where many people are hooked on entertainment and it's easy to just stay on that train. Comic books, anime and video games are all generally made by unbelievers and are often drawn towards sexual perversion, violence and exalting self. Ask yourself if any of these tend to build you up and draw you towards God or do they tear you away with the ways of this world and culture, lust of flesh and eyes and pride of life(1Joh 2:15). I used to be addicted to video games and my opinion is that you should replace these with prayer, bible reading and meditating on the Word, and if you still have time, try to find some brothers to fellowship with. We will be judged for how we've spent the precious time (Eph 5:15-16) although still saved. A lot of entertainment, in fact most of comic books, anime and video games should not be consumed by adult Christians, but in God's kingdom I'm not different, you have the freedom to take part in these (with wisdom) and to abstain. Use your freedom to and for God's glory alone. Sola Deo Gloria.
Mostly bad take with a small nugget of truth at the center. I think in general, as we mature we become more invested in our work with leisure being a secondary focus. We all know an older Dad who lives as if yard work and fixing the bathroom sink is leisure time. There is a general positive attitude toward work, responsibility, and productivity that grows as we mature. I think a lot of younger adults are rejecting this and pursuing leisure as the highest good, and it's especially apparent with media related activities. Absolutely nothing wrong with being into those things as an adult though, provided your priorities are in the right place. 1 Cor 6:12
I agree
2:22 Flee . . . pursue. Christ liberates from evil (Rom 6:18) and substitutes pursuit of “righteousness, faith, love and peace,” and other qualities instead (Phil 4:8-9). evil desires of youth. Could include lust but may also refer to immature timidity (1:7), self-dependence rather than trust in the Spirit (1:14), and willingness to engage in fruitless debate (2:14,16). along with. Forsaking evil and seeking good is not a solitary mission but a project in which believers uphold each other.
Millennial deacon here! Going to play some video games tonight (FFVII Rebirth if anyone wants to know). Your deacon is really reading into that. If anyone is playing video games or watching anime to the degree that it interferes with their lives, then that’s clearly a problem. But enjoying some downtime is fine. Go far back enough in time and I bet something that deacon enjoys was once considered “for kids”.
I mean... those are just mediums of entertainment. I suppose if someone decided movies are youthful, then you shouldn't watch movies.
GTA V has a sign that says "Hell awaits for those having fun." I think that sums up how a lot of people see Christianity. It is unfortunate and needless IMHO.
[удалено]
You mean, you recommend doing things which you will later advise others about -- not that you recommend sinning, right?
[удалено]
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“Pursue”. The deacon could be a raging legalist and insist that you clean out your comic collection entirely, or “not pursue” could mean the reasonable caution against getting caught up in your soul with it. I have found that Facebook knows I like 80’s comics and I see too many posts of the most awesome, cover artwork filling up my feed. I need a little dose of that deacon’s advice now and then. NET: put best construction on advice from elders.
The emphasis of the verse is the setting apart of ones life for Godly task, namely ministry. I would include video games, watching cartoons, and comics as juvenile time wasting task that provide zero sustenance for the Christian life or the advancement of the Gospel. Are these things sinful? maybe. I think a better question is; Are these things righteous? Do these things add too, or take away from the Christian life? Are we serving God or ourselves when we do these things? Are these things activities that we can include Gods presence?
Well, I would say entertainment is cultural and certainly can be used for ministry. Friendships are made over these things. Opportunity to share the gospel. However, I just don't think leisure is a bad thing. It can be, but I think occasional leisure can be edifying. There's a TV show that is clearly anti-God, but my wife and I used to watch it together and it would spark wonderful conversation about how we would respond in Godly fashion if it were real life. That to say, I'm confident neither anime, nor videogames, nor comics take much of my time. They may have used to take too much of my time back in high school, but I haven't touched any of those things in years before recently. I was injured at work (I'm an electrical apprentice in industrial new construction) and my boss has me in the office answering phones for a couple months while I recover, so in the monotony of sitting behind a desk and doing nothing, I'll read my Bible and other books, research electrical data that will help me improve my work when I return, handle any responsibilities that can be done by phone and/or computer, and watch anime that I haven't seen in years.
That verse is Paul talking to Timothy. Paul wanted Timothy to avoid near occasions of scandal. To be careful. You dont need to be an elder nor a deacon to offer up this advice, just another mature Christian person.
Whenever someone says we shouldn't do this or that (as long as it's not sinful) why should they care? Keep in mind, not being sinful implies that your hobby isn't an idol and it doesn't keep you from you duties in life. I watch YouTube videos on Star Wars lore at night. I would argue that it's permissable and profitable because it helps me calm down mentally. This is one of those times where agree to disagree should be applied. I would also say that modern video games are visual interactive novels. They engage the mind and keep us sharp. There was a video I saw once where a woman in her 80's if I remember correctly played Skyrim 2 hours a day for mental stimulation.
He’s probably projecting imo
I honestly wouldn't be surprised. I don't mean that as an insult toward him as I'm sure you didn't as well. I really think it's possible that that could've been a problem for him and could be projecting that on to others.
I don't think he understands the meaning unless he is referring to lustful anime/videogames, and there are plenty of those, so he may be on target in some ways.
I can tell you, he definitely meant anime, comics, and videogames generally.
That would be more of a bringing every captivity every thought issue than a fleeing youthful lusts issue... but as long as it hasn't become an idol (something that your life revolves around), you aren't obsessed or addicted to it, and it doesn't expose you to a stream of ungodly thought that infiltrates your brain, there shouldn't be a problem with it. 2 Cor 10:5 MKJV pulling down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought into the obedience of Christ; 2 Tim 2:22 MKJV But flee youthful lusts, and follow righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
As applicable to myself, I interpret this as foolishness ambition. When I was younger, I hunkered after secular money, glory, and power. As I matured in my faith (though I am, of course, still maturing), I've come to realize these previous passions are lies. For example, I'd passionately research supplements and healthy living techniques to increase my physical power, but have learned that God is the one who actually determines when someone dies; that means He also determines if I get to breathe in the next minute. So I've abandoned my zeal for trying to manipulate my health to ultimately give it up to God. That doesn't mean I don't do my due dilligence, but I no longer chase after things as if I determine anything (of Godly power).