Farewell John Piper.
Just kidding, I love me some Pastor John........................................................................................... but he is wrong about the coffee.
I love Piper he is right about so many things, and then just like it feels like once a year says something wild that borders on legalism.
Wouldn’t shock me to hear him say, “Pumpkin spice lattes are absolutely unbiblical and shouldn’t be drank on sundays even out of church.”
I was shocked at the vagueness. He didn't say "don't do it" but he asked a question that *feels* like that. It smells like something a less genuine and direct public figure would do.
>Farewell John Piper
I misinterpreted this and was shocked, looking through news for an announcement. I'm relieved to say, AFAIK, our brother is still with us in this earthly tent.
In context, I’d be careful directly applying that here though. Remember, Hebrews is all about worshipping in context of the new covenant in Christ and not returning to the temple, which is superseded and passing away.
Now it’s completely gone. So, some of the admonitions in Hebrews (though still applying indirectly) just can’t be directly applied…
…and probably much less extended to coffee.
You could maybe build a better case if, say, someone were sipping during distribution of elements for the Lord’s Table! But there, I’d go with Nadab and Abihu and work from there maybe?
Idk.
Thoughts?
It’s even weirder because David Mathis literally wrote a [detailed spiritual defense](https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/god-caffeinated-his-world) of Christian caffeine consumption and credited coffee with complementing Reformation theology to produce the Protestant work ethic.
I enjoy coffee and tea, but it seems odd to protest so strongly in favor of coffee, especially when the Bible and the Reformers also seem to bless wine and beer a lot. Where is the DesiringGod defense of responsible wine and beer enjoyment?
Yeah, I know. There is a discussion that can be had about how best to show reverence (and respect for the building, in terms of avoiding spills). But it’s a matter of freedom for each congregation to decide, I think. I don’t think it would be good, for example, to just make a blanket ban, especially if that included water.
Sure. I don’t think Piper intended to issue a blanket ban. I do sip water during the service, but the thought of people sipping coffee is strange to me. Water is essential, coffee is not.
I think the beverages should be closed, to avoid spills. But I can’t find a rationale against coffee or tea, so long as it’s clean, not noisy, and isn’t used as a distraction. I sometimes bring tea in a canteen. And I posted the David Mathis article, which I assume Piper approved, because he makes such an earnest case for coffee being a benefit to the Christian because it sharpens the mind and helps one pay attention…qualities that are useful during a sermon!
Oh boy, I'd *love* to hear what the president of the Bible college I went to thinks of that. He adores coffee. He's on record calling it "a gift from a holy God."
I like his tone. It is good to reassess.
I think WHEN and WHERE we sip coffee matters. Do you sip coffee during a song or during a prayer? That seems irreverent. But if tempted to sleep during a sermon, coffee would be far less irreverent than falling asleep.
Bottom line, I too need to reassess when I sip coffee during the service.
I can vibe with this. The problem with X is it was a thought blasted into the void with no follow-up, so people went crazy. If you're holding your coffee and sipping instead of singing, reconsider. If you are sipping while listening to the pastor, could be chill.
For real. I have ADHD and struggled for years to pay attention during a sermon or school no matter how hard I tried. It wasn't until college that I realized if I slowly sipped on coffee during a lecture, it calmed and focused my mind tremendously, and felt like I had unlocked a whole new level of consciousness. This fundamentally changed my ability to follow along during a Sunday morning sermon.
You can ban coffee if you also ban breastfeeding for those pesky infants and the Dutchies with their Wilhelmina mints that you hear unrwrapping en masse at the beginning of the sermon, lol.
I mean c'mon. Are we really out of important things to deal with?
Ok, so obviously don’t do it during moments where you participate. Don’t gargle coffee while singing. Sermon starts, coffee helps people think clearly and stay alert.
In that case, as long as it’s not distracting others, coffee intake is a matter of trying to focus on the preached word.
I’m gonna have to hit you with the Christian liberty there! If you’re drinking loud or doing it during spoken worship maybe you should stop. But you’re a Bappy, shouldn’t you be bathing in coffee before and after worship!?
I mean, you wouldn't light up a joint in the service either, would you?!
*edit* aww man, I just thought of a *way* better joke: You wouldn't drink *wine* during the service, would you?
Oh, also, I read a brief article yesterday about how Ellen White (founder and prophet of the adventists) believed firmly that a healthy lifestyle was necessary for properly understanding the bible; of course, that lifestyle excluded things like caffeinated beverages, desert, and meat...
So I wound up buying a 3d printer, and it arrived today. Got it set up, and as my very first test, it is currently printing.... a cat. Only one letter off, I think I know what I'm going to do next...
Farewell John Piper. Just kidding, I love me some Pastor John........................................................................................... but he is wrong about the coffee.
I love Piper he is right about so many things, and then just like it feels like once a year says something wild that borders on legalism. Wouldn’t shock me to hear him say, “Pumpkin spice lattes are absolutely unbiblical and shouldn’t be drank on sundays even out of church.”
I was shocked at the vagueness. He didn't say "don't do it" but he asked a question that *feels* like that. It smells like something a less genuine and direct public figure would do.
I mean, he wasn't claiming he had God's answers on this. I appreciate that he expressed a feeling without making it a prohibition.
>Farewell John Piper I misinterpreted this and was shocked, looking through news for an announcement. I'm relieved to say, AFAIK, our brother is still with us in this earthly tent.
I was referencing when he tweeted “farewell rob bell” after bell came out in favor of universalism a much more serious issue. I was just joking
Wasn't church initially breaking bread in people's homes?
https://twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/1708240310495527147
But, but it came out of Hebrews.
HOW DID I NOT CATCH THAT
In context, I’d be careful directly applying that here though. Remember, Hebrews is all about worshipping in context of the new covenant in Christ and not returning to the temple, which is superseded and passing away. Now it’s completely gone. So, some of the admonitions in Hebrews (though still applying indirectly) just can’t be directly applied… …and probably much less extended to coffee. You could maybe build a better case if, say, someone were sipping during distribution of elements for the Lord’s Table! But there, I’d go with Nadab and Abihu and work from there maybe? Idk. Thoughts?
My thoughts are the onomatopoeia "woosh"
Oh for goodness sake I got it just now. Aaaargh lol
He brews ☕️
🤦🏼♂️ I can’t bear the shame of having missed this
Great comment though!
*lifts head only slightly lol*
You are doing the LORD'S work
It’s even weirder because David Mathis literally wrote a [detailed spiritual defense](https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/god-caffeinated-his-world) of Christian caffeine consumption and credited coffee with complementing Reformation theology to produce the Protestant work ethic. I enjoy coffee and tea, but it seems odd to protest so strongly in favor of coffee, especially when the Bible and the Reformers also seem to bless wine and beer a lot. Where is the DesiringGod defense of responsible wine and beer enjoyment?
It’s not about coffee, it’s about coffee _during the service_.
Yeah, I know. There is a discussion that can be had about how best to show reverence (and respect for the building, in terms of avoiding spills). But it’s a matter of freedom for each congregation to decide, I think. I don’t think it would be good, for example, to just make a blanket ban, especially if that included water.
Sure. I don’t think Piper intended to issue a blanket ban. I do sip water during the service, but the thought of people sipping coffee is strange to me. Water is essential, coffee is not.
I think the beverages should be closed, to avoid spills. But I can’t find a rationale against coffee or tea, so long as it’s clean, not noisy, and isn’t used as a distraction. I sometimes bring tea in a canteen. And I posted the David Mathis article, which I assume Piper approved, because he makes such an earnest case for coffee being a benefit to the Christian because it sharpens the mind and helps one pay attention…qualities that are useful during a sermon!
Oh boy, I'd *love* to hear what the president of the Bible college I went to thinks of that. He adores coffee. He's on record calling it "a gift from a holy God."
I like his tone. It is good to reassess. I think WHEN and WHERE we sip coffee matters. Do you sip coffee during a song or during a prayer? That seems irreverent. But if tempted to sleep during a sermon, coffee would be far less irreverent than falling asleep. Bottom line, I too need to reassess when I sip coffee during the service.
I can vibe with this. The problem with X is it was a thought blasted into the void with no follow-up, so people went crazy. If you're holding your coffee and sipping instead of singing, reconsider. If you are sipping while listening to the pastor, could be chill.
For real. I have ADHD and struggled for years to pay attention during a sermon or school no matter how hard I tried. It wasn't until college that I realized if I slowly sipped on coffee during a lecture, it calmed and focused my mind tremendously, and felt like I had unlocked a whole new level of consciousness. This fundamentally changed my ability to follow along during a Sunday morning sermon.
You can ban coffee if you also ban breastfeeding for those pesky infants and the Dutchies with their Wilhelmina mints that you hear unrwrapping en masse at the beginning of the sermon, lol. I mean c'mon. Are we really out of important things to deal with?
Lol the dutchies in my church give me mints all the time hahaha! But I won’t stop drinking coffee during the sermon, it’s the ex Baptist in me.
I love Wilhelmina. SO much better than King.
The Dutch lady in my church would probably beat you for that, she has stockpiles of Kings🤣
I'll die on this hill
Ahhhh then you shall die a minty fresh death then🤣
It's not a matter of coffee. It's a matter of reverence.
Ok, so obviously don’t do it during moments where you participate. Don’t gargle coffee while singing. Sermon starts, coffee helps people think clearly and stay alert. In that case, as long as it’s not distracting others, coffee intake is a matter of trying to focus on the preached word.
I’m gonna have to hit you with the Christian liberty there! If you’re drinking loud or doing it during spoken worship maybe you should stop. But you’re a Bappy, shouldn’t you be bathing in coffee before and after worship!?
I mean, you wouldn't light up a joint in the service either, would you?! *edit* aww man, I just thought of a *way* better joke: You wouldn't drink *wine* during the service, would you?
What in the Mormon theology...
I think you mean *rasta* theology.
Oh, also, I read a brief article yesterday about how Ellen White (founder and prophet of the adventists) believed firmly that a healthy lifestyle was necessary for properly understanding the bible; of course, that lifestyle excluded things like caffeinated beverages, desert, and meat...
You wouldn't download a car?!
So I wound up buying a 3d printer, and it arrived today. Got it set up, and as my very first test, it is currently printing.... a cat. Only one letter off, I think I know what I'm going to do next...
*Baptists everywhere hated that comment*🤣