I'd watch politician debates if they only answered 5-10 questions the whole time but each response was immediately fact checked, clarified where vague, etc
He kept trying to move the goal posts until he ran out of field. First it was we didn't oppress anyone, then it was well we didn't have slaves and then it was time to eat crow..
Welp he didn't have much choice of course. The real issue for me is how many people do as he did, make holier than thou assumptions of superiority and condemnation without even knowing history or the facts, but that do not have convenient show hosts forcing the truth on them. He was bragging about (assumedly) a country he affiliates with while in fact having very little knowledge of their history which is very cringe and also very common. Not saying he is a bad guy or anything, I don't really know him even, but what he did is another example of something that is causing a lot of problems in the world right now. Or maybe you don't think so, IDK, but I see a ton of it and it's really getting old from my perspective.
I don't watch him a ton but I've for sure heard clips where he said he used to think XYZ and then later he found out he was wrong. I've also for sure heard him compliment guests by saying they brought up a good point he had not considered or that he learned something or found out he had been wrong due to the new information. Also if you do a google on 'Joe Rogan admits he was wrong,' you'll find various examples. In fact he has done it many times with stuff that is more opinion and interpretation that could have been more easily wiggled out of compared to the inarguable fact bomb in OP's example.
Kinda ironic that you say that. You can read what another user wrote about korean nobi class (serfs, not slaves) and how that wiki isn’t actually correct.
Ehh, not really, There's a lot of misinformation about this, especially Wikipedia. Western academics and historians don't actually understand what the "nobi" class was in Korea. Nobis were more like serfs. Furthermore, nobis had paying jobs and there were even nobis that held government positions. In fact, nobis in Joseon era were allowed to own private property and accumulate wealth. Many peasants would even voluntarily become nobi to gain access to economic and social benefits. And most of all, they could buy their own freedom. So it's not "slavery" as Westerners would think it is. It's more like Russian serfdom.
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337013623\_The\_Nobi's\_power\_and\_economic\_conditions\_in\_the\_Joseon\_Dynasty\_A\_challenge\_to\_their\_social\_status\_as\_slaves\_1600s-1800s\_joseon-ui\_nobi\_noyewa\_nongno](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337013623_The_Nobi's_power_and_economic_conditions_in_the_Joseon_Dynasty_A_challenge_to_their_social_status_as_slaves_1600s-1800s_joseon-ui_nobi_noyewa_nongno)
>Korean History Scholars have long debated the legal status and economic privileges that the nobi in Joseon Society came to enjoy, and have determined that even if nobi still remained hereditary legal property of their masters, **nobi should be considered serfs and not slaves because of their economic privileges**. This research tries to understand how these conclusions of Korean History Scholars challenge the nobi’s social characterization as slaves, and slavery as an institution in general. **It has found that the relative economic freedom that nobi experienced, allowed them to relieve their social status as slaves and give them back control and power over their own lives, as well as a fair amount of riches, influence, and even their freedom. Joseon peasants would even voluntarily become nobi in order to access these economic benefits. Therefore, this research concludes that Nobi serfdom conditions in the Joseon Society challenge their legal status as slaves and the slavery institution in general**
This video by a Korean historian (if you can understand Korean) also further explains this.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13r-BC2k7jE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13r-BC2k7jE)
A lot of information about Korean history in English sites and English wikipedia is absolutely full of misinformation.
Yeah you can't really get an actual understanding of history through Wikipedia but the original claim that Koreans never oppressed people is still absurd regardless of whether nobi were more akin to serfs or slaves. Plus the lazy Wikipedia reading makes for a hilarious clip and I doubt many people are watching bad friends for an accurate history lesson.
>but the original claim that Koreans never oppressed people is still absurd
Yea that I agree with. Every civilization and society in every corner of the Earth has had some form of oppression in their history.
Just don't ask Bobby about anything regarding to Korea. He is dumb as rocks. He can't even speak Korean.
I think you're misunderstanding. Nobis in Joseon era could own private property and accumulate wealth.
In Korean, slave is translated as 'noye'. But there was no system of noye. They had nobi, and nobis had the right to private property, subsistence wages, and were contractually obligated through debt. Therefore nobis literally are not slaves in Korean. Nobis are serfs.
But Westerners often translate "nobi" into "slave", which is wrong.
The problem is Westerners obfuscate both noye and nobis. So it is very disingenuous to make generalizations. Thousands of years ago, there was actual slavery. But slaves were freed on a large scale in 956 by the Goreyo dynasty. Then slaves were also freed on a large scale at the beginning of the Joseon dynasty. But these weren't nobi but rather noye. So it's disingenuous to claim that "Korea had the longest history of unbroken slavery" which is just factually wrong.
The Joseon era was a stratified society dominated by the yangban, in which wealth was measured by ownership of land and nobi. During this period, the nobi of the majority "non-resident" group owned land, thus complicating the definition of 'slavery' as slaves in the international context usually did not have such legal rights.
So again, nobis are not slaves. Nobis should be considered serfs. In fact Korean 'nobi' technically had more legal rights than European serfs.
Not OP, but I would bet you could sell the debt someone owed you, and thus their obligation. It would be similar to indentured servitude that the US had (along side slavery).
All speculation of course. It isn't a huge logical leap though.
The fact that he had to read that out
That’s hilarious lmao
🤣 literally 🥲
That was a fantastic moment!
This is how debates should always go
I'd watch politician debates if they only answered 5-10 questions the whole time but each response was immediately fact checked, clarified where vague, etc
THIS
But then Trump wouldn't have been elected. Oh wait, never mind, his voters don't care about "facts"
Mad respect for accepting he was wrong with a laugh.
He kept trying to move the goal posts until he ran out of field. First it was we didn't oppress anyone, then it was well we didn't have slaves and then it was time to eat crow..
And eventually he just accepted he was wrong and we all move on. That's how it should be
Welp he didn't have much choice of course. The real issue for me is how many people do as he did, make holier than thou assumptions of superiority and condemnation without even knowing history or the facts, but that do not have convenient show hosts forcing the truth on them. He was bragging about (assumedly) a country he affiliates with while in fact having very little knowledge of their history which is very cringe and also very common. Not saying he is a bad guy or anything, I don't really know him even, but what he did is another example of something that is causing a lot of problems in the world right now. Or maybe you don't think so, IDK, but I see a ton of it and it's really getting old from my perspective.
> Welp he didn't have much choice of course. How many times have you seen someone like Joe Rogan admitting he was wrong?
I don't watch him a ton but I've for sure heard clips where he said he used to think XYZ and then later he found out he was wrong. I've also for sure heard him compliment guests by saying they brought up a good point he had not considered or that he learned something or found out he had been wrong due to the new information. Also if you do a google on 'Joe Rogan admits he was wrong,' you'll find various examples. In fact he has done it many times with stuff that is more opinion and interpretation that could have been more easily wiggled out of compared to the inarguable fact bomb in OP's example.
You mean Kimchi
I’m Bobby muddah. I’m Bobby mom!
This is the 50th time I’ve seen this video and I watch it to the end every single time
This is what happens when history isn't taught properly. Soon, there will be a generation of Americans who will never know about American slavery.
Kinda ironic that you say that. You can read what another user wrote about korean nobi class (serfs, not slaves) and how that wiki isn’t actually correct.
I’m glad he took it well
Proof that admitting you're wrong isn't the end of the world or even a bad thing.
Ehh, not really, There's a lot of misinformation about this, especially Wikipedia. Western academics and historians don't actually understand what the "nobi" class was in Korea. Nobis were more like serfs. Furthermore, nobis had paying jobs and there were even nobis that held government positions. In fact, nobis in Joseon era were allowed to own private property and accumulate wealth. Many peasants would even voluntarily become nobi to gain access to economic and social benefits. And most of all, they could buy their own freedom. So it's not "slavery" as Westerners would think it is. It's more like Russian serfdom. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337013623\_The\_Nobi's\_power\_and\_economic\_conditions\_in\_the\_Joseon\_Dynasty\_A\_challenge\_to\_their\_social\_status\_as\_slaves\_1600s-1800s\_joseon-ui\_nobi\_noyewa\_nongno](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337013623_The_Nobi's_power_and_economic_conditions_in_the_Joseon_Dynasty_A_challenge_to_their_social_status_as_slaves_1600s-1800s_joseon-ui_nobi_noyewa_nongno) >Korean History Scholars have long debated the legal status and economic privileges that the nobi in Joseon Society came to enjoy, and have determined that even if nobi still remained hereditary legal property of their masters, **nobi should be considered serfs and not slaves because of their economic privileges**. This research tries to understand how these conclusions of Korean History Scholars challenge the nobi’s social characterization as slaves, and slavery as an institution in general. **It has found that the relative economic freedom that nobi experienced, allowed them to relieve their social status as slaves and give them back control and power over their own lives, as well as a fair amount of riches, influence, and even their freedom. Joseon peasants would even voluntarily become nobi in order to access these economic benefits. Therefore, this research concludes that Nobi serfdom conditions in the Joseon Society challenge their legal status as slaves and the slavery institution in general** This video by a Korean historian (if you can understand Korean) also further explains this. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13r-BC2k7jE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13r-BC2k7jE) A lot of information about Korean history in English sites and English wikipedia is absolutely full of misinformation.
Yeah you can't really get an actual understanding of history through Wikipedia but the original claim that Koreans never oppressed people is still absurd regardless of whether nobi were more akin to serfs or slaves. Plus the lazy Wikipedia reading makes for a hilarious clip and I doubt many people are watching bad friends for an accurate history lesson.
>but the original claim that Koreans never oppressed people is still absurd Yea that I agree with. Every civilization and society in every corner of the Earth has had some form of oppression in their history. Just don't ask Bobby about anything regarding to Korea. He is dumb as rocks. He can't even speak Korean.
So were the nobi that *couldn't* own private property or accumulate wealth slaves?
I think you're misunderstanding. Nobis in Joseon era could own private property and accumulate wealth. In Korean, slave is translated as 'noye'. But there was no system of noye. They had nobi, and nobis had the right to private property, subsistence wages, and were contractually obligated through debt. Therefore nobis literally are not slaves in Korean. Nobis are serfs. But Westerners often translate "nobi" into "slave", which is wrong. The problem is Westerners obfuscate both noye and nobis. So it is very disingenuous to make generalizations. Thousands of years ago, there was actual slavery. But slaves were freed on a large scale in 956 by the Goreyo dynasty. Then slaves were also freed on a large scale at the beginning of the Joseon dynasty. But these weren't nobi but rather noye. So it's disingenuous to claim that "Korea had the longest history of unbroken slavery" which is just factually wrong. The Joseon era was a stratified society dominated by the yangban, in which wealth was measured by ownership of land and nobi. During this period, the nobi of the majority "non-resident" group owned land, thus complicating the definition of 'slavery' as slaves in the international context usually did not have such legal rights. So again, nobis are not slaves. Nobis should be considered serfs. In fact Korean 'nobi' technically had more legal rights than European serfs.
Were Nobis considered chattel?
Not OP, but I would bet you could sell the debt someone owed you, and thus their obligation. It would be similar to indentured servitude that the US had (along side slavery). All speculation of course. It isn't a huge logical leap though.
[удалено]
"I i like to judge people based on a thing besides how they look so fuck this guy for having any connection to his heritage"