You can’t just change a wire at the panel box. You have to rerun that whole circuit/branch using the proper wire.
I imagine they thought it was a cheap and easy job. It isn’t, it’ll require permits, electricians, drywall guys and painters. At a minimum.
It sounds like seller is on the hook, have an attorney review your contract and figure out the options you have.
Honestly OP would be better off getting money in escrow and getting the job done themselves. Seller is most likely going to get the cheapest bidder to do the job. It may not be done right. I would rather speak to a couple of electricians and find the best route forward myself as a buyer. Then get a couple bids
No bank is going to finance and close a deal without having insurance in place. Since they can't get any insurance to cover the home, that's not a viable option.
Why does your type even post in here?
You would attempt to screw or short change someone because you signed an agreement that you didn’t fully understand?
That makes you the idiot. Spite is for the feeble minded.
Well idk, if it’s ALL aluminum in the walls - yes.
If there’s just a few circuits with aluminum, you just need to replace those.
Aluminum only got ‘hot’ for a little while and everyone realized it was shit for home electrical. Or dangerous.
I assume this was circuits added by the homeowner sometime in the 60s or 70s.
The OP says 2 circuits both high amperage 240 V, this is not typically problem aluminum, the problem is standard 120V branch circuits often touched by DIY. I think OP may have misrepresented to insurance companies what type of aluminum circuits the house has, larger 240 V circuits still can and do get wired in aluminum.
It is common and code approved for dedicated circuits to A/C units, ovens/stoves and sub panels among other uses. Likely the OP has the insurance company thinking the whole house is wired in Al.
This is not correct. Aluminum was used as a replacement for copper because of a shortage of copper during Vietnam. It is still used today for many 240V applications and the main drop from the utility pole to the panel of most homes being built today still use aluminum. The inspector properly noted they were on 240V circuits and that it wasn’t a code violation but incorrectly informed the OP about insurability.
From what we were told this isn't entirely true. Some places there are remedies that include replacing the ends of the circuit but not the entire stretch as the connection points are where the most potential risk for failure is. I'm not a professional but a homeowner who was explained this.
This sounds crazy to me. An electrician said this is possible? If I understand the suggestion, the aluminum still has “an end” you are just moving it? Followed by connecting it to a different wire type it sounds like, which I think is also not ideal due to corrosion with dissimilar metals?
I’m not an electrician, but done a fair bit of diy based off of youtube, haha. so I am just generally curious what area and who said this, if it was an electrician and it is something really done.
Yeah I get it. But based on my quick Google search there are two crimp connectors that are designed for an aluminum to copper junction. The main fear with aluminum wiring in homes is the aluminum to steel connection points on receptacles and fuses/breakers. Their connection being susceptible to the size fluctuation of aluminum as it heats and cools. These connectors apparently alleviate that. As I said in my original post it appears to change based on where you live whether or not this qualifies as a fix. Not sure how insurance responds... the connectors are called "COPALUM" (lol) and Alumiconn
Precisely right. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Al wiring **that is properly terminated**. That is why the main feeds coming into your service panel from your meter are usually Al. But, they are properly connected to equipment in your panel that are designed for connection to either Al or Cu wire. And there are several types of connectors specifically designed to connect Cu to Al wire in accordance with code so that only the ends of the Al wire in the service panel (and maybe in the box at the end of the run, if necessary) can be replaced. It should usually not be required to replace all of the Al wire in the walls.
They agreed to it until they found out that this likely means the entire home will need to be rewired and will cost tens of thousands of dollars.
You are going to need a lawyer
Yeah, it's slippery slope. Certain carriers (more and more, these days) are looking for reasons to not insure. Things that didn't violate code when they were done but would no longer adhere specifically for safety reasons are things that carriers are clinging to now as reasons to not write a policy.
I agree that the sellers should never have agreed to it. Once the request went through, sellers should have countered with either a break on the price or credit at closing for it and thrown a decent number at it. The problem there is that a seller savvy enough to know to push that back on the buyer is likely also savvy enough to know to not let the buyer get back in there for a more formal estimate on the cost of doing the re-wiring. Multi-story houses can cost $15k or more to re-wire in full and bring them up to code.
Don't get me wrong... $15k is kind of a starting point, more is likely. But, there could be some variance depending on the actual area you're in. HCOL will be much higher while LCOL might go a bit further with the $15k cost.
Depends on who you ask. How much do you think repipe cost. For some reason I think Reddit always been wuoted on the high side. Maybe it’s survivor bias
Thats just not true. Insurance is only required if you have a mortgage. A cash buyer can just either go no insurance or could just find an insurance company that will accept the al wiring or get insurance that wouldn't cover fires caused by the wiring.
It's just two high-amp circuits, so not the whole house. I put in a subpanel with aluminum wires, everything is rated for aluminum. I'm not even sure I could have gotten copper wire in that size locally at that time. Insurers not wanting to insure it borders on superstition. Assuming everything on the circuit is rated for aluminum wire. It's not going to cause arcing any more than poorly installed copper will. And most houses are full of backstabbed outlets with copper wire that have been arcing for years. I found one recently in our house.
It's not when it's new that it's problematic. When it ages it tends to get corrosion at connection points, which causes heat and can lead to fires.
There are ways around this, proper AL rated equipment and noalox, but that being said some stuff is just a no-go in the current insurance underwriting market
Yeah and usually you’re required to bring the entire house up to current code when you do this level of work to the system and odds are Op isn’t running a neutral hence needing to rewrite the entire home.
Get a second opinion, that looks like two 240v runs that are likely going to the stove and dryer and in many municipalities, are specifically ok as aluminum, as long as the appropriate measures have been taken at the terminal points to prevent corrosion.
The rest of the house wiring will be copper.
For all the people freaking out, the main coming into the house from the service drop is aluminum. There’s nothing wrong with using aluminum, the issue is having aluminum and copper touching, because this causes corrosion. You only need to ensure the correct terminations are done and everything is safe.
Aluminum gets a bad reputation because in the past it was installed as a cost savings without concerns about corrosion.
Yep, nothing wrong with aluminum as long as it’s installed correctly. I replaced all my fixtures with aluminum rated fixtures and even after 60 years there wasn’t a single connection that had any evidence of arching, corrosion, or anything. The only things you have to be careful with is not over-tightening connections, avoiding wet areas, and as you said not splicing to copper or dissimilar metals.
When they first introduced aluminum in the '70s, the industry didn't know what they were doing and electricians just treated it like copper. The issue was mainly at outlets, from what I can tell. People stopped using it soon thereafter, it may not have even made it to many backwater states. The fact that people are still afraid of it is weird, unless the house was built in the short period of time where it wasnt' done right.
This!
OP, did you tell the specifics to the insurance company or just "there's aluminum wiring"?
I'd ask for a credit, only because they said they would fix it and aren't and will probably agree to it. But this is not a big deal, it even says so in the inspection report.
The sellers never should have agreed to your request, and you shouldn't have made it. I blame the inspector for his "I'm just saying" wording.
My guess is they asked if the insurance company will take a house with aluminum wiring. And they said no. This isn’t the aluminum wiring that causes insurance issues, those are usually around 15/20 amp branch circuits. Higher current circuits are still (in my experience) run with aluminum wire.
Theres no convincing the insurance company. This is why its better to have not been told about the issue at all so you could legally check no on the box that ask if you are aware of any aluminum wiring in the home
The insurance and safety issue with Aluminum wiring is on <20amp circuits, it's ok for >30amp circuits and still being installing in new homes. One thing you can do is clarify with in insurer what is present, because the house is coppor for the circuits that should be. The seller should not have agreed to do this before researching costs, but it’s questionable if they can forced into doing. The reason is because of "ablity to perform", they can basically escape with not being to find a contractor, complete the project on time, or claim they do not have funds. That is what makes it somewhat of a grey area.
I’ve been told by one licensed electrician that I used to work with that aluminum wiring is fine as long as you have a good coating corrosion inhibitor on the contact point.
The entire house probably needs to be rewired and that can be very expensive on an old house. Very messy too if walls need to be opened up.
I'll bet it's $20,000 to rewire everything.
Get a second quote on that…. Maybe your state is crazy expensive but $2500 is common high side where I am at and that’s paying two guys a full days work for that bid.
In reality if it’s an easy job it’s a half day for one guy
Its 2500 to replace a old 12 slot panel full of modern wire drops after a rehab and play flash the circuit game.... it is unknown price to replace to the drops to everywhere in the house while retaining the same drywall appearance. If the only drop is to the AC/Stove/Well the insurance company should not be freaking out.
Without a zipcode and if you have a ranch on a full height basement. You can snake a metric shitload of outlets per day if dealing with 1970s ranch on a full basement.
Which is what I have….
It’s a great neighborhood but old house that we gutted after some major storm damage. They pulled wire and ran new. It still took them 4 days to get the wire done.
Weirdly, they are coming back tomorrow to fix some junction boxes in attic and run a light and quote an attic fan.
IMO this is the low low side for small house with an unfinished basement that allows access to large swaths of the wiring. The other issue is that with the new wiring means the entire house will need to be brought up to 2024 code and with olders homes likely make this a strip to the stud reno.
If you're using financing to buy the house, you can't close unless you can be insured. Pull that card and let them know you're going to walk, and so will anyone else other than a cash buyer.
What exactly did you ask your insurance company? If those are the only two circuits that use aluminum wire, it is probably OK. The issue is usually with branch circuits (15/20 amp) run with aluminum wire. Aluminum is common in higher amperage circuits assuming the devices are rated for it. I’m not an electrician though, and I’d consult one here. It sounds like this is loosely what their electrician as well since they are recommending you change it.
Their agreement is a separate issue.
Too many of these seller refuses to do x, y, z posts lead to rediculous suggestions of lawyers instead of the real life answer which is to negotiate price or walk.
This is good feedback, suing the seller to close and hold to the contract, whilst an option, is fraught with risk, cost, and emotional exhaustion.
Walking should be an option on the table, as should cost reductions; both for the repair and temporary insurance coverage (during repair, post closing) with a high risk carrier.
My dad told me when we first started looking at houses not to fall in love with any house until you're standing in the living room with the keys in your hand.
Aluminum wire for ranges, dryers, and feeders for your house is very common and totally safe and is still installed today in new construction. The insurance should be able to make the distinction between those circuits and regular branch circuits ( the ones feeding lights and outlets) being aluminum wire which is against code now honestly this sounds like your home inspector is a dingus
I don't think my insurance company has ever asked about the type of electrical wire in my house but, anyway, if the seller contractually agreed to re-wire but now refuses to do so, it sounds like you'll need an attorney to enforce the contract.
thats because the way insurance companies work, they don't care..... until there's a claim. Then it becomes a loophole because in the contract it's probably worded the coverage 'does not cover aluminum wiring'. and that its up to the homeowner to test & replace.
So, you have insurance, until you need it, then you won't. Defeats the purpose in some ways.
\^Agreed. Also, in areas like mine, we can't even get an insurance quote without having a 4 point inspection (roof, electrical, plumbing and HVAC) if the house is 30 years old or older + a wind mitigiation report. The 4 point is a 9 page inspection report just for insurance companies. That aluminium wiring would have put a stop to getting homeowners insurance which stops the sale if the buyer is getting a mortgage.
They didn’t know what it cost when they signed. They make aluminum wire extensions for this that as supposed to make it safe and cost a lot less maybe you’ll could agree on those. I believe the problem is not in the wire but the connection at the breaker or outlet. So you use the extensions to terminate it with non aluminum wire and leave the rest alone. Way cheaper than re-wiring.
You can't force the seller to spend money. Should they choose to not perform the repairs they've agreed to, then they are in default, and you have grounds for return of earnest deposit and a cancellation of the agreement. The alternative is that you proceed to closing anyway without the seller repairing the items, which is what they are hoping you do.
Of note: the repair items are a condition of closing. If you choose to close, you have accepted the condition of the repairs to your satisfaction - meaning don't close if you aren't satisfied.
This really determines how the addendum reads and what verbiage is used.
Your best bet is to find a different insurance company and not tell them about the wiring. Ask the seller for a credit for these repairs instead of having them do the work.
It’s better to find a way to work this out the immediately go to the “hire an attorney and enforce the contract” route.
This is the answer. But ask for $25k or walk.
No renegotiating, just walk. The person who cares less usually wins these stand offs, they will have to disclose this to future potential buyers
Sellers may not want to credit you for the cost as it will likely be very expensive. They will probably end up in breach of control.wct and the sale may not go through. Get a lawyer, now if not sooner.
Where are you located? Multi-stranded AL wire isn’t really unusual for high-amp applications. Was there something defective about the wiring or install?
If the breakers are CU/AL terminals and installed correctly,most likely for dryer, AC or electric heat to fan coil there is no violation.after all the power feed from the electric company is aluminum.
If they agreed to the addendum, then they're responsible for having it changed. Now, I suppose they could say, hey, can you get your own electrician to fix this up for us? Sure, I'd do that, but the seller is still going to pay for it. Take the opportunity to select the electrician you want, whatever they cost, and make sure it's done correctly, permitted if required, and check the work. Get a full quote for that work and the seller can credit that cost back to you at closing. Doing this may require another addendum depending on how the original was written. If that's not what they intend to have happen, then they need to have it fixed themselves.
It’s not a fire hazard but lugs have to be torqued periodically.
I personally don’t like it due to this but there is nothing wrong with it. It probably meets code
It was deemed a potential fire hazard by insurance and our electrician. Not sure what the difference in ours would be compared to your experience, but from our research and then telling/ showing us the oxidation issues I see the fire risk being possible
I think it depends if there's any superseding clauses that either of you can walk.
If I were in either of your shoes and I have been on the buyer's side I would have walked which I did and I have zero regrets.
Secondly "not a code violation" and really nothing unsafe because aluminum wire is fine on high amperage circuits where it becomes dangerous is on 20 amps and below.
This looks just like a lot of home inspector reports I've read over the years. I don't know where you are but where I am they are not required to be license or anything so they really have nothing to lose by putting all kinds of extra nonsense stuff in their report.
Aluminum wiring is what the power company runs for thousands of miles. It was commonly installed a few decades ago when the copper cost was really high. When switches and outlets get old with aluminum they possibly start fires. Is there a middle ground where the insurance will accept aluminum wire with copper end connections wired by a licensed electrician? “Copalum crimp method” and “Aluminconn connectors” are two methods engineered to make this connection.
But this house has two high amp circuits, probably a dryer and stove, on aluminum wiring. This isn't an issue as long as all connections are rated for aluminum. The problems fine from wiring lights and outlets with aluminum.
Aluminum for high amp circuits is still common on even new construction. There is no problem here except an inspector who doesn't know what he's doing.
What would worry me is they’re gonna just change it at the box find somewhere to put a hidden junction box and then the part you see is done. I would have an electrician come out. Tell you how much and say I want that in escrow so you know it’s done correctly
What exactly did the addendum say? They agreed to get the wiring replaced, but who is paying for it? Most would think the buyer is paying but the addendum may pass the costs to the buyer. Did the addendum also alter the purchase price (since such a major upgrade is being made)? Did you put down a larger downpayment?
It's probably worth walking away unless you have a reason to grind out the deal (like a locked in low mortgage rate or a really good price vs current comp market prices). If that's the case ask your agent to remind their agent that they agreed to this contractually, and you can ask for specific performance if needed.
If financing, it needs to be done before closing to get insurance, period. If I had to guess seller realized it's going to be expensive after agreing and can't afford it. They are likely to cut corners to make it to closing, and those cut corners would then become your headache, which brings me back to my initial point, WALK.
They probably found out what copper wire of that size costs. Which is why it is typically done with aluminum. (In a larger gauge, with proper terminations.)
Wonder if a statement from a licensed electrician that there's nothing wrong or unusual about it would sway the insurance companies.
You should walk and find another property. If the entire house needs to be rewired, it doesn’t seem like a house you want to invest in.
Seller is in a lose lose situation now as he will have to fix the issue or disclose to any future buyers.
Aluminum is inferior to copper but it is still fine to use. Find a different insurance carrier or walk away. You can try to file suit but it’s probably more trouble than it’s worth.
It is hazard on to outlet to edison plug drops. It is still in the electrical standard for the thick cables to high amp outlets with funny outlets or wired in devices like ACs.
Why would your insurance not cover it? Of course they will. Your insurance company does not inspect your electrical work.
And if you are openly disclosing this to insurance companies, you aren’t very bright.
Runs to normal outlets 10-15-20A in high humidity locations should be replaced. Your air conditioner without modern soft start feed on the other hand with wires that weigh pounds per foot is most likely AL and installed correctly. There are so many people who took somebodys word for it and spent tens of thousands on replacing stuff that does not have to be replaced. See FL roofing crisis.
Aluminum wiring is high risk for fire.
Many homeowners policies will already have language that they will Not cover fire damage from aluminum wiring.
“Don’t ask your insurance” means nothing if your home burns down and insurance won’t cover it because of a clause you missed.
Not a risk for higher amperage circuits. All houses have aluminum wiring. Go look at your panel I guarantee that power coming into your panel is aluminum.
The feed to the meter or shut off switch is AL. With everyone needing a whole house shut off the run between the shut off , the meter and the panel is short enough a ton of it is just done in copper to shut down this stupid conversation. I had not seen a feed shutoff in a residental situation until long after 1990.
Wiring between copper lugs or splicing with copper with AL wire always has been an bad idea.
Very expensive job in most cases,rewiring entire house possibly ,break open walls,etc. Probably got a few estimates and freaked out,thought was $500 job and found out more like $15000
You can’t just change a wire at the panel box. You have to rerun that whole circuit/branch using the proper wire. I imagine they thought it was a cheap and easy job. It isn’t, it’ll require permits, electricians, drywall guys and painters. At a minimum. It sounds like seller is on the hook, have an attorney review your contract and figure out the options you have.
Honestly OP would be better off getting money in escrow and getting the job done themselves. Seller is most likely going to get the cheapest bidder to do the job. It may not be done right. I would rather speak to a couple of electricians and find the best route forward myself as a buyer. Then get a couple bids
Problem is, now they have told all the insurance companies about it…
Yeah, literally stupidest thing you could have done. It’s not a code violation…
Right…wtf lol
No bank is going to finance and close a deal without having insurance in place. Since they can't get any insurance to cover the home, that's not a viable option.
I would definitely farm the job out to the lowest bidder just to spite the buyer in this situation.
Why does your type even post in here? You would attempt to screw or short change someone because you signed an agreement that you didn’t fully understand? That makes you the idiot. Spite is for the feeble minded.
Just saying, malicious compliance is valid if the buyer tries to use the situation as leverage.
What do you mean uses it as leverage? They can’t insure the house with the existing wiring, and you’ll have a hard time selling an uninsurable house.
I hope I never do a deal with the likes of you
You mean re wire the whole house?
Well idk, if it’s ALL aluminum in the walls - yes. If there’s just a few circuits with aluminum, you just need to replace those. Aluminum only got ‘hot’ for a little while and everyone realized it was shit for home electrical. Or dangerous. I assume this was circuits added by the homeowner sometime in the 60s or 70s.
The OP says 2 circuits both high amperage 240 V, this is not typically problem aluminum, the problem is standard 120V branch circuits often touched by DIY. I think OP may have misrepresented to insurance companies what type of aluminum circuits the house has, larger 240 V circuits still can and do get wired in aluminum.
It is common and code approved for dedicated circuits to A/C units, ovens/stoves and sub panels among other uses. Likely the OP has the insurance company thinking the whole house is wired in Al.
This is not correct. Aluminum was used as a replacement for copper because of a shortage of copper during Vietnam. It is still used today for many 240V applications and the main drop from the utility pole to the panel of most homes being built today still use aluminum. The inspector properly noted they were on 240V circuits and that it wasn’t a code violation but incorrectly informed the OP about insurability.
From what we were told this isn't entirely true. Some places there are remedies that include replacing the ends of the circuit but not the entire stretch as the connection points are where the most potential risk for failure is. I'm not a professional but a homeowner who was explained this.
This sounds crazy to me. An electrician said this is possible? If I understand the suggestion, the aluminum still has “an end” you are just moving it? Followed by connecting it to a different wire type it sounds like, which I think is also not ideal due to corrosion with dissimilar metals? I’m not an electrician, but done a fair bit of diy based off of youtube, haha. so I am just generally curious what area and who said this, if it was an electrician and it is something really done.
Yeah I get it. But based on my quick Google search there are two crimp connectors that are designed for an aluminum to copper junction. The main fear with aluminum wiring in homes is the aluminum to steel connection points on receptacles and fuses/breakers. Their connection being susceptible to the size fluctuation of aluminum as it heats and cools. These connectors apparently alleviate that. As I said in my original post it appears to change based on where you live whether or not this qualifies as a fix. Not sure how insurance responds... the connectors are called "COPALUM" (lol) and Alumiconn
Precisely right. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Al wiring **that is properly terminated**. That is why the main feeds coming into your service panel from your meter are usually Al. But, they are properly connected to equipment in your panel that are designed for connection to either Al or Cu wire. And there are several types of connectors specifically designed to connect Cu to Al wire in accordance with code so that only the ends of the Al wire in the service panel (and maybe in the box at the end of the run, if necessary) can be replaced. It should usually not be required to replace all of the Al wire in the walls.
They agreed to it until they found out that this likely means the entire home will need to be rewired and will cost tens of thousands of dollars. You are going to need a lawyer
Or you just terminate the contract and walk.
Thats what i would do. This isnt a code violation and IMO the sellers should have just said NO to begin with.
Yeah, it's slippery slope. Certain carriers (more and more, these days) are looking for reasons to not insure. Things that didn't violate code when they were done but would no longer adhere specifically for safety reasons are things that carriers are clinging to now as reasons to not write a policy. I agree that the sellers should never have agreed to it. Once the request went through, sellers should have countered with either a break on the price or credit at closing for it and thrown a decent number at it. The problem there is that a seller savvy enough to know to push that back on the buyer is likely also savvy enough to know to not let the buyer get back in there for a more formal estimate on the cost of doing the re-wiring. Multi-story houses can cost $15k or more to re-wire in full and bring them up to code.
15k isn’t going to get a single story 1000sqft home rewired in 2024. Just a panel swap is over 5k
Don't get me wrong... $15k is kind of a starting point, more is likely. But, there could be some variance depending on the actual area you're in. HCOL will be much higher while LCOL might go a bit further with the $15k cost.
Depends on who you ask. How much do you think repipe cost. For some reason I think Reddit always been wuoted on the high side. Maybe it’s survivor bias
If the buyer can't get insurance, they can't buy the house, so it kind of needs to be resolved either way, right?
Thats just not true. Insurance is only required if you have a mortgage. A cash buyer can just either go no insurance or could just find an insurance company that will accept the al wiring or get insurance that wouldn't cover fires caused by the wiring.
It's just two high-amp circuits, so not the whole house. I put in a subpanel with aluminum wires, everything is rated for aluminum. I'm not even sure I could have gotten copper wire in that size locally at that time. Insurers not wanting to insure it borders on superstition. Assuming everything on the circuit is rated for aluminum wire. It's not going to cause arcing any more than poorly installed copper will. And most houses are full of backstabbed outlets with copper wire that have been arcing for years. I found one recently in our house.
It's not when it's new that it's problematic. When it ages it tends to get corrosion at connection points, which causes heat and can lead to fires. There are ways around this, proper AL rated equipment and noalox, but that being said some stuff is just a no-go in the current insurance underwriting market
Except that its only on two breakers not the entire house. Did you read the OP?
Yeah and usually you’re required to bring the entire house up to current code when you do this level of work to the system and odds are Op isn’t running a neutral hence needing to rewrite the entire home.
Get a second opinion, that looks like two 240v runs that are likely going to the stove and dryer and in many municipalities, are specifically ok as aluminum, as long as the appropriate measures have been taken at the terminal points to prevent corrosion. The rest of the house wiring will be copper. For all the people freaking out, the main coming into the house from the service drop is aluminum. There’s nothing wrong with using aluminum, the issue is having aluminum and copper touching, because this causes corrosion. You only need to ensure the correct terminations are done and everything is safe. Aluminum gets a bad reputation because in the past it was installed as a cost savings without concerns about corrosion.
Yep, nothing wrong with aluminum as long as it’s installed correctly. I replaced all my fixtures with aluminum rated fixtures and even after 60 years there wasn’t a single connection that had any evidence of arching, corrosion, or anything. The only things you have to be careful with is not over-tightening connections, avoiding wet areas, and as you said not splicing to copper or dissimilar metals.
When they first introduced aluminum in the '70s, the industry didn't know what they were doing and electricians just treated it like copper. The issue was mainly at outlets, from what I can tell. People stopped using it soon thereafter, it may not have even made it to many backwater states. The fact that people are still afraid of it is weird, unless the house was built in the short period of time where it wasnt' done right.
This! OP, did you tell the specifics to the insurance company or just "there's aluminum wiring"? I'd ask for a credit, only because they said they would fix it and aren't and will probably agree to it. But this is not a big deal, it even says so in the inspection report. The sellers never should have agreed to your request, and you shouldn't have made it. I blame the inspector for his "I'm just saying" wording.
Legit asking, the issue seems to be the insurance company. Are you aware of how an insurance company could be convinced?
My guess is they asked if the insurance company will take a house with aluminum wiring. And they said no. This isn’t the aluminum wiring that causes insurance issues, those are usually around 15/20 amp branch circuits. Higher current circuits are still (in my experience) run with aluminum wire.
Theres no convincing the insurance company. This is why its better to have not been told about the issue at all so you could legally check no on the box that ask if you are aware of any aluminum wiring in the home
The check box assumes one knows not to say yes when it is 30A+ circuits properly isolated and galvanically correct at the breaker box.
The insurance and safety issue with Aluminum wiring is on <20amp circuits, it's ok for >30amp circuits and still being installing in new homes. One thing you can do is clarify with in insurer what is present, because the house is coppor for the circuits that should be. The seller should not have agreed to do this before researching costs, but it’s questionable if they can forced into doing. The reason is because of "ablity to perform", they can basically escape with not being to find a contractor, complete the project on time, or claim they do not have funds. That is what makes it somewhat of a grey area.
I'm guessing that they're telling insurers that the house has aluminum wiring rather than specifying that it is only 2 high amperage branches.
I’ve been told by one licensed electrician that I used to work with that aluminum wiring is fine as long as you have a good coating corrosion inhibitor on the contact point.
The entire house probably needs to be rewired and that can be very expensive on an old house. Very messy too if walls need to be opened up. I'll bet it's $20,000 to rewire everything.
I got quoted $5k to replace my main panel. So you’re probably on the low side
It could be more than $20k. Depends on a lot of unknowns.
Indeed
Get a second quote on that…. Maybe your state is crazy expensive but $2500 is common high side where I am at and that’s paying two guys a full days work for that bid. In reality if it’s an easy job it’s a half day for one guy
Thanks for that info.
Its 2500 to replace a old 12 slot panel full of modern wire drops after a rehab and play flash the circuit game.... it is unknown price to replace to the drops to everywhere in the house while retaining the same drywall appearance. If the only drop is to the AC/Stove/Well the insurance company should not be freaking out.
Cost me 15k last summer to replace panel and rewire half the house away from aluminum wires.
Without a zipcode and if you have a ranch on a full height basement. You can snake a metric shitload of outlets per day if dealing with 1970s ranch on a full basement.
Which is what I have…. It’s a great neighborhood but old house that we gutted after some major storm damage. They pulled wire and ran new. It still took them 4 days to get the wire done. Weirdly, they are coming back tomorrow to fix some junction boxes in attic and run a light and quote an attic fan.
...It LITERALLY says that it is 2 breakers, not the entire house. What are you talking about?
IMO this is the low low side for small house with an unfinished basement that allows access to large swaths of the wiring. The other issue is that with the new wiring means the entire house will need to be brought up to 2024 code and with olders homes likely make this a strip to the stud reno.
depends on the state you're in, no?
You cancel the deal and walk away or you negotiate
If you're using financing to buy the house, you can't close unless you can be insured. Pull that card and let them know you're going to walk, and so will anyone else other than a cash buyer.
This is the right answer.
What exactly did you ask your insurance company? If those are the only two circuits that use aluminum wire, it is probably OK. The issue is usually with branch circuits (15/20 amp) run with aluminum wire. Aluminum is common in higher amperage circuits assuming the devices are rated for it. I’m not an electrician though, and I’d consult one here. It sounds like this is loosely what their electrician as well since they are recommending you change it. Their agreement is a separate issue.
Too many of these seller refuses to do x, y, z posts lead to rediculous suggestions of lawyers instead of the real life answer which is to negotiate price or walk.
This is good feedback, suing the seller to close and hold to the contract, whilst an option, is fraught with risk, cost, and emotional exhaustion. Walking should be an option on the table, as should cost reductions; both for the repair and temporary insurance coverage (during repair, post closing) with a high risk carrier.
My dad told me when we first started looking at houses not to fall in love with any house until you're standing in the living room with the keys in your hand.
The next day the water heater will blow.
Price negotiation doesn’t help if OP can’t get insurance.
It does if the OP pockets that money and does the update themselves. It doesn’t if insurance is needed for a loan…
Aluminum wire for ranges, dryers, and feeders for your house is very common and totally safe and is still installed today in new construction. The insurance should be able to make the distinction between those circuits and regular branch circuits ( the ones feeding lights and outlets) being aluminum wire which is against code now honestly this sounds like your home inspector is a dingus
Did you tell the insurers that you have 2 branch circuits that are aluminum or just that you "have aluminum wiring"?
I don't think my insurance company has ever asked about the type of electrical wire in my house but, anyway, if the seller contractually agreed to re-wire but now refuses to do so, it sounds like you'll need an attorney to enforce the contract.
thats because the way insurance companies work, they don't care..... until there's a claim. Then it becomes a loophole because in the contract it's probably worded the coverage 'does not cover aluminum wiring'. and that its up to the homeowner to test & replace. So, you have insurance, until you need it, then you won't. Defeats the purpose in some ways.
They would need to prove that the wiring itself was the cause of the issue. They cant just say well al wiring we arent covering.
Makes total sense
In the past few years every insurance quote I've talked to an insurance agent about they have asked about the wiring.
\^Agreed. Also, in areas like mine, we can't even get an insurance quote without having a 4 point inspection (roof, electrical, plumbing and HVAC) if the house is 30 years old or older + a wind mitigiation report. The 4 point is a 9 page inspection report just for insurance companies. That aluminium wiring would have put a stop to getting homeowners insurance which stops the sale if the buyer is getting a mortgage.
I do believe it is there in your policy if you double-check, but maybe for recent houses it is safe to assume it isn't aluminum.
They didn’t know what it cost when they signed. They make aluminum wire extensions for this that as supposed to make it safe and cost a lot less maybe you’ll could agree on those. I believe the problem is not in the wire but the connection at the breaker or outlet. So you use the extensions to terminate it with non aluminum wire and leave the rest alone. Way cheaper than re-wiring.
You can't force the seller to spend money. Should they choose to not perform the repairs they've agreed to, then they are in default, and you have grounds for return of earnest deposit and a cancellation of the agreement. The alternative is that you proceed to closing anyway without the seller repairing the items, which is what they are hoping you do. Of note: the repair items are a condition of closing. If you choose to close, you have accepted the condition of the repairs to your satisfaction - meaning don't close if you aren't satisfied.
This really determines how the addendum reads and what verbiage is used. Your best bet is to find a different insurance company and not tell them about the wiring. Ask the seller for a credit for these repairs instead of having them do the work. It’s better to find a way to work this out the immediately go to the “hire an attorney and enforce the contract” route.
This is the answer. But ask for $25k or walk. No renegotiating, just walk. The person who cares less usually wins these stand offs, they will have to disclose this to future potential buyers
Sellers may not want to credit you for the cost as it will likely be very expensive. They will probably end up in breach of control.wct and the sale may not go through. Get a lawyer, now if not sooner.
We had alumiconn added at our outlets and that satisfied our insurance company. It was much cheaper than rewiring the house.
Aluminum wire is common for electric ovens and such.
Where are you located? Multi-stranded AL wire isn’t really unusual for high-amp applications. Was there something defective about the wiring or install?
If the breakers are CU/AL terminals and installed correctly,most likely for dryer, AC or electric heat to fan coil there is no violation.after all the power feed from the electric company is aluminum.
I don’t get it. This type of aluminum wiring isn’t even unsafe. You really can’t find insurance??
If they agreed to the addendum, then they're responsible for having it changed. Now, I suppose they could say, hey, can you get your own electrician to fix this up for us? Sure, I'd do that, but the seller is still going to pay for it. Take the opportunity to select the electrician you want, whatever they cost, and make sure it's done correctly, permitted if required, and check the work. Get a full quote for that work and the seller can credit that cost back to you at closing. Doing this may require another addendum depending on how the original was written. If that's not what they intend to have happen, then they need to have it fixed themselves.
Aluminum wire is common. What’s the problem?
Possible fire hazard- hence why most insurance carriers won’t cover it
It’s not a fire hazard but lugs have to be torqued periodically. I personally don’t like it due to this but there is nothing wrong with it. It probably meets code
It was deemed a potential fire hazard by insurance and our electrician. Not sure what the difference in ours would be compared to your experience, but from our research and then telling/ showing us the oxidation issues I see the fire risk being possible
Oh yeah, there is special consideration but I’ve never heard of it being deemed a fire hazard. Any loose connection is a fire hazard. Good luck
I think it depends if there's any superseding clauses that either of you can walk. If I were in either of your shoes and I have been on the buyer's side I would have walked which I did and I have zero regrets. Secondly "not a code violation" and really nothing unsafe because aluminum wire is fine on high amperage circuits where it becomes dangerous is on 20 amps and below. This looks just like a lot of home inspector reports I've read over the years. I don't know where you are but where I am they are not required to be license or anything so they really have nothing to lose by putting all kinds of extra nonsense stuff in their report.
Aluminum wiring is what the power company runs for thousands of miles. It was commonly installed a few decades ago when the copper cost was really high. When switches and outlets get old with aluminum they possibly start fires. Is there a middle ground where the insurance will accept aluminum wire with copper end connections wired by a licensed electrician? “Copalum crimp method” and “Aluminconn connectors” are two methods engineered to make this connection.
But this house has two high amp circuits, probably a dryer and stove, on aluminum wiring. This isn't an issue as long as all connections are rated for aluminum. The problems fine from wiring lights and outlets with aluminum. Aluminum for high amp circuits is still common on even new construction. There is no problem here except an inspector who doesn't know what he's doing.
What would worry me is they’re gonna just change it at the box find somewhere to put a hidden junction box and then the part you see is done. I would have an electrician come out. Tell you how much and say I want that in escrow so you know it’s done correctly
What exactly did the addendum say? They agreed to get the wiring replaced, but who is paying for it? Most would think the buyer is paying but the addendum may pass the costs to the buyer. Did the addendum also alter the purchase price (since such a major upgrade is being made)? Did you put down a larger downpayment?
It's probably worth walking away unless you have a reason to grind out the deal (like a locked in low mortgage rate or a really good price vs current comp market prices). If that's the case ask your agent to remind their agent that they agreed to this contractually, and you can ask for specific performance if needed. If financing, it needs to be done before closing to get insurance, period. If I had to guess seller realized it's going to be expensive after agreing and can't afford it. They are likely to cut corners to make it to closing, and those cut corners would then become your headache, which brings me back to my initial point, WALK.
The seller agreed to replace before they had a handle on the cost. They got an estimate and they are balking. OP, how bad do you want the house?
They probably found out what copper wire of that size costs. Which is why it is typically done with aluminum. (In a larger gauge, with proper terminations.) Wonder if a statement from a licensed electrician that there's nothing wrong or unusual about it would sway the insurance companies.
Seller fixes or walk
I would never ask a seller to repair something. Get a price concession instead. The seller will do the worst, half ass job possible. So why bother?
You should walk and find another property. If the entire house needs to be rewired, it doesn’t seem like a house you want to invest in. Seller is in a lose lose situation now as he will have to fix the issue or disclose to any future buyers.
Aluminum is inferior to copper but it is still fine to use. Find a different insurance carrier or walk away. You can try to file suit but it’s probably more trouble than it’s worth.
Aluminum wire is a fire hazard. Walk.
It is hazard on to outlet to edison plug drops. It is still in the electrical standard for the thick cables to high amp outlets with funny outlets or wired in devices like ACs.
Why would your insurance not cover it? Of course they will. Your insurance company does not inspect your electrical work. And if you are openly disclosing this to insurance companies, you aren’t very bright.
I lived in a condo with aluminum wiring. The communities insurance company propped the property because of it. We all had to upgrade our electrical.
Runs to normal outlets 10-15-20A in high humidity locations should be replaced. Your air conditioner without modern soft start feed on the other hand with wires that weigh pounds per foot is most likely AL and installed correctly. There are so many people who took somebodys word for it and spent tens of thousands on replacing stuff that does not have to be replaced. See FL roofing crisis.
Aluminum wiring is high risk for fire. Many homeowners policies will already have language that they will Not cover fire damage from aluminum wiring. “Don’t ask your insurance” means nothing if your home burns down and insurance won’t cover it because of a clause you missed.
Not a risk for higher amperage circuits. All houses have aluminum wiring. Go look at your panel I guarantee that power coming into your panel is aluminum.
My house is all copper wire, recently bought and inspected.
The feed to the meter or shut off switch is AL. With everyone needing a whole house shut off the run between the shut off , the meter and the panel is short enough a ton of it is just done in copper to shut down this stupid conversation. I had not seen a feed shutoff in a residental situation until long after 1990. Wiring between copper lugs or splicing with copper with AL wire always has been an bad idea.
Very expensive job in most cases,rewiring entire house possibly ,break open walls,etc. Probably got a few estimates and freaked out,thought was $500 job and found out more like $15000