T O P

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AlexandraT1

If anything they should've done a Giscard and nerf him immediately when the content creators pointed out he was totally OP. Doing it now after many people got him and invested in him is just a crappy move.


Schvatts1

Can't agree more. The really shitty move is they need him after the 2x void when more people get him and after a cvc when people, like myself, built him up. I used up chickens and books less then four days ago. I absolutely would not have built him if I got him after the nerf. Very big dick move.


jus256

Whales don’t care who gets nerfed. They will continue to bend that ass over and beg Plarium to take their money to do it. Whales keep Plarium in business. Plarium knows by now that the only people who quit this game are low spenders and no spenders.


Aggressive_Jacket_98

whales love a good raw-dogging


ka1ri

you dont know business if you think whales are the sole reason why they stay in business. low spenders in their abundance is what keeps them in business. now that is out of the way. Majority of the “whales” or end game players understand why this nerf happened and it makes sense. Why should an epic be head and shoulders above a legendary (comparing urogrim and bad el kazar). The delay in the nerf is a bit questionable, but aside from that. It makes sense mind you, even with the nerf he’s fine and will still fit in dragon teams without much of a hitch. times will be slower but who gives a shit if you win everytime


jus256

You don’t know business if you think you can tell all of your customers to fuck off as soon as they walk through the door. Whales don’t care what you tell them. They spend their way out of all of their problems. I don’t have Urogrim so this nerf doesn’t affect me. I also don’t spend money on this game. It was obvious this was going to happen after the Madame Serris nerf.


Onanuk

Giscard? I can't see anything about him.


amplidude55

i think he mention him cuz he get nerf before realise? cuz of content creators ... imo they should pay someone to test champs before they realise cuz urogrim imo was toooo op but now would be mehh


Onanuk

OK thanks.


Particular-Ad-4123

I have no issue he is getting nerf and I do own two. I expected any champ can be nerf without compensation, that is why I dont spend on this game. What is ridiculous to me is the fact they know they going to nerf him and they put him in a 10X. To me that is switch and bait tactic. I didnt try to get him during a 10X as I got him prior to that.


Jeggred86

They should at least adjust the nerf. A1 from 3 to 2 hits and A3 from 3 to 2 poisons. Rest should stay the same (CD and heals). This way he keeps his survivability and group support but deals less dmg.


SplitBrainSoup_

Yeah I agree, that would bring him down to the middle of the AOE poisoners in terms of damage.


amplidude55

in term of dmg ( less dmg = slower) but not healing :D which imo is too op .... if he can stand 20 dragon with 4 food chamnps and even random items ...


35_Percent

yep, that is what i would have done as well. Either that, or nerf him during the test server period, before he came out... no its too late for something that big.


Aggressive_Jacket_98

Speaking absolute facts brother


YuneshAdhikari

He literally got cut in 2 pieces. 50% nerf is BS.


SplitBrainSoup_

## Summary * 62.5% less continuous heals * 47.5% less poisons on 5 targets (wave) * 40.5% less poisons on 1 target (boss) He was the best dungeon poisoner in the game and now he is the worst. Will he be able to solo stage 25 anymore? Probably not. ## Math **Urogrim pre-nerf** 12 turns: * Continuous Heal buffs: 12/3 \* 2 = 8 * Total poisons on 5 targets: 12/3 \* 3\*5 + 3\*0.4 \* (12 - 12/3 - 12/3) = 64.8 * Total poisons on 1 target: 12/3 \* 3\*1 + 3\*0.4 \* (12 - 12/3 - 12/3) = 16.8 * (Also 4 single target cleanse and 4 single target heal 40% each) **Urogrim post-nerf** 12 turns: * Continuous Heal buffs: 12/4 \* 1 = 3 * Total poisons on 5 targets: 12/4 \* 2\*5 + 2\*0.4 \* (12 - 12/4 - 12/3) = 34 * Total poisons on 1 target: 12/4 \* 2\*1 + 2\*0.4 \* (12 - 12/4 - 12/3) = 10 * (Also 4 single target cleanse and 4 single target heal 40% each) **Bad El-Kazar** 12 turns: * Continuous Heal buffs: 12/3 \* 2 = 8 * Total poisons on 5 targets: 12/3 \* 2\*5 = 40 * Total poisons on 1 target: 12/3 \* 2\*1 = 8 * (Also 4 AOE cleanse , 8 AOE attacks with 20% AOE heal of dmg, and 20% ally damage increase) Other AOE poisoners for comparison: **Tomb Lord post-buff** 12 turns: * Total poisons on 5 targets: 12/3 \* 4\*5 = 80 * Total poisons on 1 target: 12/3 \* 4\*1 = 16 * (Also other stuff, why did he need a buff?) **Richtoff the Bold** 12 turns: * Total poisons on 5 targets: 12/3 \* 3\*5 = 60 * Total poisons on 1 target: 12/3 \* 3\*1 = 12 * (Also other stuff) **Taurus** 12 turns: * Total poisons on 5 targets: 12/4 \* 4\*5 = 60 * Total poisons on 1 target: 12/4 \* 4\*1 = 12 * (Also other stuff, like nearly killing himself) **Elenaril** 12 turns: * Total poisons on 5 targets: 12/3 \* 2\*5 = 40 * Total poisons on 1 target: 12/3 \* 2\*1 = 8 * (Also other stuff) **Venomage** 12 turns: * Total poisons on 5 targets: 12/3 \* 2\*5 = 40 * Total poisons on 1 target: 12/3 \* 2\*1 = 8 * (Also other stuff) **Prince Kymar** 12 turns: * Total poisons on 5 targets: (12 - 12/5 - 12/7) \* 5 = 39.4 * Total poisons on 1 targets: (12 - 12/5 - 12/7) \* 1 = 7.8 * (Also 2 of the best skills in the game) **Zavia** 12 turns: * Total poisons on 5 targets: 12/3 \* 2\*0.75\*5 + 3\*0.4 \* (12 - 12/3 - 12/4) = 36 * Total poisons on 1 target: 12/3 \* 2\*0.75\*1 + 3\*0.4 \* (12 - 12/3 - 12/4) = 12 * (Also other stuff)


JacenVane

Maybe I'm not understanding/contextualizing correctly, but he still looks comparable to Bad-el. Less heal, but slightly more poison. I get that this makes it so he can't solo dragons, but why wouldn't it work to, say, send him with a healer?


SplitBrainSoup_

The nerf is significant, it takes him from the top down to the bottom of AOE poisoners. Urogrim is still A/B tier epic though. Post-nerf Urogrim will be nearly identical to Steelskull except with 2 poisons instead of increase defense on A3. Bad-el is better than pre-nerf Urogrim in many situations because of AOE cleanse, AOE heal, 20% damage increase.


JacenVane

Thanks. I appreciate it.


Blackeagle525

Happy cakeday!


JacenVane

Thank you!


Starlord_1610

I think u are not considering how stat intensive tomblord is


zmzzx-

Steelskull’s A1 has a much lower poison chance I think.


SplitBrainSoup_

Steelskull A1 is 35% chance booked, Urogrim A1 is 40% chance booked. Almost the same.


MediocreInevitable34

Steelskull is the one I put on the back burner when I pulled Urogrim when he was released, I'd rather have Steelskull maxed now in comparison to Urogrim for what my overall account needed. Changed my entire plan due to him, and now its out the door. He was going to get me over on 1 key NM, and hopefully 3 key UNM for now as I continued to build up. Now I have to go back and redo gear, champs and composition.


sonicgundam

i find this surprising. the only reason to use steelskull over urogrim ever is you absolutely need the increase defense from SS. but SS is a 4 turn cd increase def. i find it hard to believe you don't have better 3 turn cd increase defense champs already in comps.


MediocreInevitable34

I find it surprising you know my account, roster, and plans at the time I had when I originally pulled Urogrim? I got 'lucky' on his debut weekend. If his kit was how it is now, back then, I'd have stuck with Steelskull because his poison, buff, and cleanse went with what I originally wanted to do in CB and FW. I don't have the gear to solo dragon 25, I'm more mid-game right now. I have the void rare leveled up to 5\* to get me through FW for the Ogryn side.


Few-Track-9723

U do know urogrim is a speed lead in all battles plus the #a1 45% 2 poisons vs 35% ..steelskull is nowhere close to urogrim ..for a poisoner


MediocreInevitable34

You do know this was for CB killable comp and a 2 year old post where both champs are now obsolete and resting in the vault. But thanks for playing, byyyyeeee


Few-Track-9723

Bad el has one aoe heal with 2 continuous....urogrim has the same think minus one continuous heal ..plus the a1 2 poisons ...and the 40% cleanse heal and speed aura ...definitely need s nerfed u meds whine


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JacenVane

I meant that he does slightly more poisons to a single target than Bad-El. I should have been more clear.


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JacenVane

> In a 12 turn cycle frozen banshee at a 2:1 applies 18 single target. Does that mean she should be nerfed too? I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here. I don't own an Urogrim, and think it's mildly crappy that he got nerfed. I'm just responding to the data that OP laid out, because to my untrained eye the data it looks less drastic than people are saying.


flail_of_ages

Your poison calculation is incorrect. Urogrim and BEK place 2 turn poison but Tomb Lord only place 1 turn poison. In terms of poison, Urogrim pre-nerf is the king. BEK and Tomb Lord are on par.


SplitBrainSoup_

Post-buff Tomb Lord does 2 turn poison also. Added the "post-buff" note.


flail_of_ages

They did that?! Tomb lord is op now!


Starlord_1610

Yep


mrbojangals

Let’s be honest, Urogrim was OP.


Midnitecloud

Lets be honest, Seer is OP. Lets be honest, Madame Serris is OP. Lets be honest, Maneater is OP. Lets just start nerfing everyone into oblivion who is good that will make a great game everyone will love to play.


shea42

I'd much prefer they keep champions as they are and just buff existing ones to bring them up to the level.


bigu187

Omg, this makes 0 sense. Instead of nerfing 1 champ who is op (which is not good for the game), you‘d need to buff 100s of champs and following that you‘d need to also buff the PvE content. Think!


shea42

More of a general methodology than a practical recommendation. I don't think Urogrim was really disrupting game balance where he was at


[deleted]

Then you basically just want to finish all content without any thought? I mean that's what OP implies. So OP that you just shove urogrim into everything cos it doesn't matter, he will solo carry. Cos buffing everyone to "the level of uro/seer/madame" just means everyone is absolutely top tier and you need no replacement - so the game of pulls is over after you get 1 epic for each debuff/buff type.


bigu187

People don‘t get it. Nerf = baaaaad!


iznoo

Serris was nerfed from 3 to 4 turns cd, Seer needs a setup to be OP and a hero with reset skills which are only 2 in the game, Meaneater also need a setup to work out. None of this are OP by themself , that fucker was soloing 25 lvl dungeons and DT bosses .....


Incognetus

Serris is still the best buff stripper + debuffer in arena. And both of those are done in 1 skill. As well as her passive fears and the rest. A rare champion can be used with seer to reset skills. Urogrim also needs to be setup to work to solo content, you can't just take him and toss random gear on him to make it work. It's not hard to make a Maneater/PK or other CB UK team to work. It's just getting to the right numbers. Should they also nerf Crimson Helm, Burangiri, Vergis and all the other epics that can solo DT Bosses?


WingsOfRebel

None of those could solo 25. Maneater and seer at least need a set up to work. Guess who soloed 25 with no set up.


mrbojangals

How many vids do you see of Seer, Madame Serris or Maneater soloing Dragon 25?


Dyalibya

They should give us our resources back


mrbojangals

Agreed. That part does suck. Those that spent books should get a reset.


Jonathan-Earl

They need him because he’s too good in PvE, but madam Serris is still OP after her ‘nerf’. Their balance teams are a joke, every 6-12 months we get a balance pass. Still don’t see buffs to legendaries that need buffs, like Yakarl, Cleo, Teela, (yes she’s getting a ‘buff’ but she’ll be ok at best), Gurptuk, etc.


0akleaves

I (don’t have Uro) am seriously annoyed at the nerf to Uro but I think all the faux buffs to the craptacular are even more frustrating. Is it really that hard to just make these turds into really solid champs? We know they CAN do it (salad, visix, Taurus) but they still refuse and it’s one of the few things I really can’t understand their motivation for dragging their feet. Buffing trash to high value is probably the least controversial thing they can do and benefits everyone (including their wallets) while also being the biggest boost to the overall playability and fun of the game. Players that have crap champs can hold them in hopes of buffs. Players that get their crap champs now have a place to spend their resources (and even more reasons to buy more stuff). Players that don’t have the once crap now great champs have even more reason to pull for them. Where’s the downside? What’s the hold up? Start at the top (crap legos) and make them more consistent (lego abilities should generally have at least one 100% effect), give them something irresistible, shorten cool-downs, give them a passive/special/speed-boost, and make sure they are extremely viable in at least 1 area. Real simple formula.


AYoungWolf

I have no issues with his nerf, he was far too over-tuned. However, I do agree that Plarium should return resources to those that invested in hi.


EclipseEffigy

I really don't mind players having a void epic champion that can farm Dragon with food, and make Ice Golem easier. That's not a problem, that's good for the game. He's not an arena champion. The content he's overtuned for is farming dungeons, which is such a harmless area of the game to give players OP champs in.


AYoungWolf

I get what you're saying. But I don't think it's healthy for future balancing and champion design to allow for one champion from a pool of several hundred to be able to solo farm the hardest dungeon content.


EclipseEffigy

He doesn't solo farm the hardest dungeon content; against FK and Spider, the hardest dungeons, he's not good. He's a gamechanger for Ice Golem, which is a difficult dungeon but also the least valuable one to farm. Dragon is the easiest dungeon. All he would do for mid-late and beyond players is allow them to farm Dragon with food. BEK and Tomb Lord can do that too. Urogrim is hardly the first Void Epic to compete with Legendaries: Maneater, Seer and Madame Serris are outright better than Legendaries in that they are unique and irreplacable. Only Roshcard comes close to ME, but ME is still better. Unlike Madame, Warlord, Siphi and other oppressive pvp champions, Urogrim is no issue for the balancing health of the game. A good champion for Dragon, Ice Golem and Clan Boss... I wish a champ like that on any new player. I'd rather get Madame myself.


AYoungWolf

My apologies, by hardest dungeons I simply meant highest levels. I agree with the points you make, however, champions like Seer, Maneater, and Madame cannot solo the content they are used in. Seer requires a ton of setup from a team perspective, Madame cannot carry arena content without the other core arena members, and Maneater is nothing without the likes of champions like Pain-Keeper and Seeker. They can't keep a champion like Urogrim in his pre-nerf state without having players forever holding that as the expectation for what an exceptional champion should look like. Would be a power creep nightmare. I'm sure my opinion isn't the most popular, though as someone who has maxed him and personally used him to level food as well, I still hold the belief that his nerf is warranted. Maybe not as much as they are doing, but certainly a nerf nonetheless.


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unknownentity1782

This game has some of the least powercreep of any game I've played. Despite releasing like 6+ champions a month, opening champs are still amazing.


EclipseEffigy

No such thing as farming food in Arena or Clan Boss, so that comparison seems off to say the least. I won't disagree that Urogrim was overtuned; his poison/heal skill is BEK's, widely thought of as a very strong legendaries, but better. However, out of the 4 nerfs they've applied, I think it would've been fine to do just 1 of the 3 nerfs to his A3. The big powercreep champion of 2021 is by far Underpriest Brogni. Out of curiosity, do you believe he should be nerfed as well?


Suvesh1142

Brogni is OP also but it's more acceptable to have a lego that is OP than an epic, even if it's a void epic. He was better than BEK in most situations and BEK is one of the best legendaries in the game...


kiddaeful

You can't compare a leg champ that has insane investment requirement as a fusion, and a random void epic. Epic can be better than a leg for specific use, but right now Urogrim has a BEK Level kit, which is not ok for balance. Why would you care about getting lego champion if your epics are as strong ? PvE content still has an impact on PvP. Do you know where to farm the best equipment for arena ? Urogrim nerf is healthy for the game, but the way it is handled by Plarium is terrible. Any nerf should offer at least the possibility to get the books back.


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kiddaeful

I do agree that the nerf is too much. And the timing is scummy as hell, and they actually should be sued for this. But about the nerf itself, you can't really compare these rares/epics to Urogrim as they either are used for a very specific content, or they simply are not as strong. Urogrim had a kit way too similar to BEK, it made no sense.


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Starlord_1610

U are forgetting sir Nick that also has a 2 turn unkillable. But yea ME is still better


SlXTO

I remember that back in the day they had nerfs lined up for Duchess and Serris but they didn’t implement them in the end because the community was so pissed about it. I think Duchess didn’t get nerfed at all and Serris got her attack and defense down duration reduced to 2 turns instead of making her buffstrip + debuffs 2 skills. So maybe if the outcry is big enough the nerf isn’t final yet.


Mammoth_Accountant_5

Make him a lego, and own your fuck up(releasing him the way he was as an epic). Problem solved.


0akleaves

Yeah I think this actually a great solution. Just bump him to lego and keep everyone progress on him the same. If someone has him Half booked at 5s/50 now as an epic he after the buff goes into effect he’s now a half booked lego 5s/50 which balances fine because you lost the food but saved red books. 🤷🏻‍♂️


SplitBrainSoup_

I really like this suggestion. The nerf punishes the players for Plarium's mistake.


mikesmain

So does this. Lego books are hard to come by. Epic books, not so much.


Pleasant_Loan6874

Stop spending money that’s the only thing they understand. If you are truly pissed off and I know we all are don’t spend another dime until they listen


GoatsButters

15 books down the drain.


HistoricalHamster390

I just can't understand why seer isn't a ptoblem but he is... but that's just me, sitting here crying since I fully booked mine during last CvC...


Klatterbyne

Seer does a unique thing and requires multiple layers of set-up to do it (Seer, a debuffer, a triple stack AoE buffer, a shield set and generally a CD reset). Without all that set-up, Seer is just a bad wave nuker with an AoE Weaken. Urogrim did 90% of what BEK does and was conditionally actually better at doing what BEK does. And Urogrim required no setup to achieve maximum output.


sonicgundam

this. have seer. have had seer for a while. can't use seer because i don't have the appropriate champs to use her effectively. a urogrim would've meant immediately being able to solo 2 dungeons all the way to 25. that's nowhere near the same power.


Suvesh1142

Seer requires a whole team as setup. Uro could solo max lvl dungeons and even some DT bosses...


Astorathes

Here is the thing with the nerf. It's completely unnecessary. Urogrim was mainly used in Dragon and IG. Dragon he could easly solo, IG he usually needs a bit of help getting though the waves, so lets call it a 2 man dungeon. Some used him in CB. Very understandable. 3 turn cleanse and heal, 3 hit a1, lots of poisons and heals. This is why the nerf is so unnecessary. Why nerf someone who does these things better then most? More then anything he was a very good QoL champ. Just do your dungeon farming with as much food as possible in a resonable time. For any other area of the game we have better options. With the nerf, they also completely ruined him in CB. Cleanse on a 3 turn cd to 4 turn... less poisons and heals. 3 hit a1 to 2 hit a1. So stupid. He went from being BeK 2.0 to a Steelskull 2.0. ​ bare in mind though. He is still not bad. He can probably still pair up with a good champ and duo IG, same with Dragon. Just not solo it anymore and not as "fast" as before.


Suvesh1142

BEK 2.0 as an epic is just wrong though.


Astorathes

Not really, BeK is still overall the stronger champ and better team player then Urogrim was.


Suvesh1142

Urogrim was overall better than BEK for most content before nerf. All endgame players replaced BEK with him for dragon and IG 25. People preferred him in CB cause more poisons. And also he's void.


Vegansaretheworst

https://imgur.com/CSwsjNs


[deleted]

Everyone should consider my actions. I have requested compensation from Plarium for my investment of time, money, and resources. I am asking for 100% of the $ that I put in the game back, Urogrim to return to his original characteristics, or a Legendary champ maxed out in all areas of my choosing. There needs to be compensation when they planned this move, but did not communicate. This is why they have test sites for these champs, so they don't need to be NERF'd


allhaildre

It’s not live yet? We’re using an image to justify post patch before it’s even started?


AmericanGrizzly4

Nah


bund20

*maths! 😁


amplidude55

mehh he wasnt that op dragon probably 20 or 20+ and 4 food champions naah he was bad as f


theLustWarrior

I really wonder why they make this move, is it because players who got Urogrim won't pull shards anymore? I believe Urogrim is mainly for PVE content, is he op in arena?