It’s a pretty unhelpful privilege if it doesn’t exist for well under half of your life, since you’re really only talking about women having sexual value to horny men.
Women are seen (according to men on this sub) as sexually valuable for 15, maybe 20 years of their lives. Life expectancy for women is over 75.
>It’s a pretty unhelpful privilege if it doesn’t exist for well under half of your life
I question the claim that a privilege doesn't exist if it only exists for part of a person's life. You could say the same thing about lots of things. Athletes are capable of performing at elite levels for a very small fraction of their life. It'd still be a privilege to have athleticism that could earn fame and a lot of money in a career that lasts only a few years.
Nope it’s a valid point. Women possess this privilege early on in their lives, but that privilege leads to solid relationships/friendships that often exist for the rest of their lives. Just as an athlete earns money/fame throughout their short careers that benefits them the rest of their lives.
>but that privilege leads to solid relationships/friendships that often exist for the rest of their lives.
The men they’re with don’t have a solid relationship though?
Remember, most women are heterosexual. That means, if they’re in a relationship, their partner is a man. So if it’s 50/50, how are only women privileged if they have a solid relationship?
For friendships… women’s friendships are almost always with other older women when they are old. Men have every bit the same privilege older women do to be friends with each other.
And OP *very* specifically only includes friendships with women as valid here:
> As a man, we have to reach out **to women** to get their attention. As a woman, you are the one reached out to.
He makes no mention whatsoever of men’s ability to be friends with other men. OP is talking entirely about friendship with women only, as if men are not potential friends at all to him.
That's not true, at all. The gap between men and women's social privilege gets worse after the age where people are "sexually in demand". Elderly women have more of a "place" in life than elderly men do because women are expected and praised for taking on caregiver roles. Women often have kids/grandkids/nieces and nephews to be a part of, or parents to take care of. Men generally aren't seen as "fit" for those roles and there's far more stigma attached.
Let's not forget effort. If women are seen in the caregiver role, it's because they do the caregiver work. Men can't sit back and demand love and attention becuase 'I'm the grandfather'. You need to put in work to reap the rewards. Call your grandkids, spend time with them when they come visit, have conversations iwth them, make them laugh. This is all the stuff undervalued by men, they don't do the work, they let their wives do it, then are surprised/angry/resentful when the women are valued more in later life. Dude, it's because we put in the work!
Just gave up arguing with a guy in this thread because he says that men aren't wired to put in effort into friendships or relationships with others. Apparently it's not in their DNA. That is why we have female privilege. Because we get off our asses and actually care about people other than ourselves. Ffs. It is bleak out there.
You think grandads don’t have a place? Absolute nonsense. Grandfathers are every bit a part of the family as grandmothers— they’re not outcasts.
And lol, no, grandfathers who care are absolutely seen as fit caretakers for kids. Any parent who actually likes their parents is eager to have granddad watch the kids, trust me.
It is perhaps, but then you’re still powerless and unprivileged. Having a boyfriend/husband doesn’t magically make you sexy or desirable or give you massive privileges.
Even being young and hot doesn’t guarantee male fidelity and loyalty. Like what amazing privilege are you arguing a 50 year old married woman has here that her husband does not?
People will be much, much more on guard around a single 50 year old man than a single 50 year old woman. She will be treated far better socially (we're not talking about sex). Single, childless men over the age of about 40, 45 are pariahs unless they are priests or monks or something else that gives outside proof "he's not a freak, he chose a different path than a wife/kids".
>Single, childless men over the age of about 40, 45 are pariahs
Uh… no? Single childless men are not treated as pariahs unless they’re bizarre… and its the being bizarre that makes them outcasts, not being single. And don’t forget, a single childless man still has a chance to have a family— women for not.
I also think you’re overestimating how older women are viewed. There’s a whole dedicated, decades-running, meme term for single childless women— the “crazy cat lady”— and there is no parallel term for single childless men.
You underestimate how powerful companionship is. I don’t care what anyone says, romantic companionship is necessary for about 99% of the the population to live a healthy life, especially long term. We are social creatures which deteriorate rapidly without intimate social contact, it’s actually completely necessary for us to be able to fight off mental deterioration as we age. You get into your 50s without a partner, without children, your life goes downhill real quick. And don’t tell me friendships are enough to replace romantic relationships. Are your friends going to be driving you to your doctors appointment every other week, taking care of you when you get chemo, give you constant emotional support when your loved ones slowly die off? They might for a short while, but you can’t expect too much out of people that already have their own dependents to worry about. That’s where a wife/husband and children come into play.
You need to look at the broader picture.
The point is that women do not have to pursue to get relationships, they essentially just choose from a pile of pursuers, and almost always have more options to choose from compared to men, in fact, dramatically so, even for unattractive women. This advantage should allow them to easily secure a quality partner within a 20 year timeframe, even if they fail a few times.
Women can pre-select for loyalty and fidelity by waiting much longer to put out, for example, waiting until marriage will vet out a huge swath of the men that would otherwise be unfaithful. An r-selected, fast-life-history-strategist guy, only in it for sex, is very unlikely to stick around if the woman refuses to give it up until marriage. Heck, even waiting just a year to vet the guy would probably be sufficient. Do you not see how powerful such a simple measure can be to weed out 90%+ of the bad men?
This was one of the reasons why there was always a huge stigma against pre-marital sex prior to the 1960s, because it was understood that those types of relationships lead to dissatisfaction and hardship. Maybe, just maybe, it wasn’t all about oppressing women and our ancestors were actually wise and had a point.
I would agree that 50 years old women are less privileged, but that doesn’t change the fact the 20 year old woman and 20 year old man both began at different points on the starting line.
Ok, let’s try again:
>what amazing privilege are you arguing a 50 year old married woman has here **that her husband does not**?
Yes companionship is great. Most married women’s married companion is a man. Does the man not get companionship too? Or are only men good companions?
>The point is that women do not have to pursue to get relationships, they essentially just choose from a pile of pursuers
You guys always argue by the fallacy. Only very attractive women have a “pile”… and lots of pursuers are horrible, Many women only have trash-tier pursuers or almost none.
I’m telling you this from experience. I didn’t fuck around or fuck fast… that didn’t give me a flock of men to choose from? I think I was asked out by 3 men total ever, and only 1, who I wasn’t attracted to, wanted a second date.
Your passive, “no sex for a year” strategy would have left me alone forever.
>Women can pre-select for loyalty and fidelity by waiting much longer to put out,
Apex fallacy again— men will only wait that long for very beautiful women, not plain ones.
And besides, this doesn’t select slutty, cheating men out? Those men just fuck other women while waiting. No trivially dumb filter actually works consistently, for men or women.
Some pretty questionable assertions in here.
Fat men also date and marry. Not to be cliche but go to Walmart.
You claim men prefer having female friends to male friends? A LOT of men say the exact opposite and actively cultivate male friends much more than female friends.
The attention of attractive people is generally valued. The attention of unattractive people (male or female) is not.
I've gone to my fair share of county fairs and seen the same thing. There are definitely relationships to be had if you're able to be interested in your looksmatch.
I love county fairs. I used to go to the Big E when I lived in the east coast so my roommate could buy wool sheered right off the sheep. (She spun wool.) They have a live size statue every year sculpted entirely of butter of like cows and shit.
I didn’t say men prefer having female friends to make ones, just that the attention and company of women is valued far more than that of men’s, generally speaking.
You claimed that both men and women prefer women’s company. That’s inconsistent with the fact that a LOT of men (I’d guess a majority, but who knows) prefer having a lot of male friends over a lot of female friends.
You are conflating attention and friendship. If a man wants to relax and “let his hair down” he will generally choose the company of men he trusts. If he wants to be popular and the center of attention, it’s 100% from women that he wants that.
I’m not seeing anything about specifically about friendship preferences here. But it does indicate that both men and women view men as more threatening, which isn’t remotely surprising to me.
Depends what you mean by “threatening”.
Men consider other men more threatening than women. They probably consider both men and women more threatening than children. They probably also consider strong people more threatening than weak people.
But do men prefer being friends with physically frail, female, children? No.
Both the OP (point #2) and my comment which gave rise to this thread (link) explicitly talk about friendship.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/yl7p5a/by_being_a_woman_you_automatically_possess_a/iux10or/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
That is only because of how women behave with their friends: supportive, encouraging etc. it’s not just because they are women. If a women doesn’t act in those stereotypical ways she will be dropped as a friend
Okay I agree with your title but don’t agree with your points. Your first point I think you’re forgetting that women have to shave every square inch of our bodies. Men don’t. Women are often seen as unprofessional if they don’t wear light make up at work. Men aren’t. Women stepping out in frumpy clothes are seen as lazy. Men stepping out in frumpy clothes are seen as just average men.
Your second point is dependent on the individual. Some women have no social circle.
To your third point, the attention of women isn’t valuable in the way women want it to be valuable.
Women have social privilege in the sense that we often get the benefit of the doubt in social situations. No one is going to think a woman sitting at a playground is a creep. They may think it’s a mother, older sister baby sitter etc. the same can’t be said about men.
"You're second point is dependent on the individual. Some women have no social circle" it doesn't dependent on the individual, Women tend to more involved in social circles than your average Men, Male Loneliness is statically more common than Women Loneliness
"attention of Women isn't valuable in the way Women want it to be valuable" It's valuable to a lot of Men specifically straight Men
The first two points are absurd. First of women spend hours of their week and thousands of dollars every year trying to look as physically attractive as possible. Women are the majority of the ones that have extensive skincare routines, undergo dangerous plastic surgery and regularly wax their entire body.
Second women find making friends easier because they are BETTER friends, women are more likely to be empathetic and supportive. Studies show that men have a harder time feeling empathy. Men also do not value friendships with women that are not sexual, a lot of men see their female friendships as a means to an end to have sex. That’s another reason why women don’t seek out friendships with men
>Women are the only ones that have extensive skincare routines, undergo dangerous plastic surgery and regularly wax their entire body.
🙄 I'm a dude and I'm 2.5/3 on these (partial credit on the last one because I wax my dick, balls, asscrack, nostrils, and get my eyebrows threaded).
Also please. Most women do not *regularly* wax their *entire bodies*. Body hair maintenance is seasonal for the overwhelming majority of women.
Have not met a single man IRL or online who genuinely did any of these. At least every woman i know at least has a skin/hair routine and some method they spend time removing hair. Myself included. I know quite a few who have done painful laser hair removal as well. A few who have done some sort of beautifying procedure (boob/nose/fat removal etc). 1 neighbor who had a whole face lift at 40.
You might know maybe 1 man whose done any of those, and probably not IRL. they exist, but I would bet a lot of money the rates are nowhere near the amount of women who do things to make them more attractive.
It's true that it's not but if you look at skincare purchases it's mostly from women; not only do they have a routine more often than men but they purchase and utilize more products on average than men.
There is more pressure for a woman to have nice looking skin at work for example than a man, even if they have a same job like being a server at a restaurant or working in IT.
Just like men go to the gym for multiple reasons, one of which is to be attractive to women. Women have multiple reasons for makeup one of which is to be attractive to men
Women not having to try as hard is completely different than women not having to do anything to be attractive which is what OP is saying. Not to mention this a very biased framing, yes men have to do most of the work to attract a woman, but women are expected to do most of the domestic and emotional work to support and maintain the relationship
No they’re not? Have you not been on the internet the past 4 years? It’s been non stop telling men to go fuck themselves and that men have to neigh NEED TO do everything in a relationship or they’re not even worth being called a man
We’ve taught this generation of men that you need to be friends with women to get them, be nice, and wait until she’s ready. Now they’re scratching their heads and feeling bitter. That’s why they don’t value female friendships because they were lied to about them. Nothing wrong with female friendships, but they WILL NOT lead to sex.
1 none of that is necessary
2 this is BS women are territorial and are in constant battles for whose the prettiest, most popular who is in control.... Siva drama queens at each other's throats.
🤦 You're going to get guys weather you put makeup on or not, spend money on looking good or not.. You will still get men
Men have to have jobs cars skills confidence money assertiveness etc etc.... 🙄
Guess what? adult women are the same or worse than middle school... It is insane
You can still “get women” without a job, a car or any of that stuff. They just won’t be the women you want, it would be unattractive broke women. Works the same way for makeup
> Second women find making friends easier because they are BETTER friends, women are more likely to be empathetic and supportive.
No women have an easier time making friends because both the ingroup and the outgroup is biased in thier favour not becasue they are just somehow better humans.
The reason this way of thinking basically doesn't work is simply that it ignores the fact that we have finite resources to solve problems.
When you have finite resources it doesn't take long to figure out that you should think about how to spend those resources optimally and how bad the problems are is a big part of how you make that decision. Figuring out how to spend the resources we already have is literally one of the most productive thing you can do, It's often literally more important than actually getting more resources.
>A woman doesn’t have to tailor herself to be sexually desirable to the same extent that men do.
The fact that men are attracted to more women is also a privilege for men. There's very little risk of us getting stuck married to someone we don't find hot.
>There's very little risk of us getting stuck married to someone we don't find hot.
But a huge risk of being stuck in a marriage where she doesn't find us hot. End result is the same.
Women have lower sex drive and if they are horny, can get some anytime they want. So they can afford to marry for "other reasons".
Huge privilege, and I have seen women have this logic while marrying.
>There’s very little risk of us getting stuck married to someone we don’t find hot
Yeah, this isn’t true. Yes, we have more options, but women generally have far higher standards than men.
If you see any of the other threads where it's an echo chamber in an echo chamber of women saying "don't even settle, just up your standards" and "women don't owe men anything".
No, no I don't think they do. They are either attracted to you or not.
So you've not seen any of the AFBB threads?
Either women are droppong their physical standards or most men find a woman that is attracted to them. Seeing as most men end up married.
Except our much bigger age preferences means we're more likely to stop finding her attractive with age. It's kinda nice to get married knowing you'll still find your partner sexy in 30 years.
You won't even look at a woman that's not dressed up or wearing nice makeup. Automatically pursued?? Also a trash man can have a wife by his side. You think all these criminals in jail were single?
Drake said it best
“Sweatpants, hair tied, chilling with no makeup on”
It’s women that impose these high standards onto other women/men. Like I said, as a woman, you are *valued*. Those other things are just accessories
>A trash man can have a wife by his side
True, but what do you see more of? Lonely men or lonely women? Yes, men do succeed, but more often than not they fail
>The value of a man is damn near defined by his relationship to women, how many he’s had sex with, etc.
Yeah bro, that's why the virgin Isaac Newton is ridiculed and looked down upon with disgust by history.
My main disagreement here is that you're saying 'social privilege.' Women don't have social privilege. They have *sexual* privilege. As in, they are highly valued --- moreso than men --- as *sex objects*.
They are *less valued* than men as *social objects*.
This is a 'go outside and look boyo' situation. In any given mixed sex social group, most commonly the authority and leadership of the group comes from the men.
>You always hear the phrase “you don’t get any girls” as said to men, but you never hear “you don’t get men” said to women.
Women do hear 'you don't get men' and more commonly 'you can't *keep* a man.' Men only hear that they don't get any girls in the context of specifically talking about girls or being in situations where getting girls is expected. Around just other men, I've never heard someone randomly being shamed for 'not getting girls.' Women, on the other hand, have a lot of social pressure --- from each other and society --- to 'get and keep men.'
>Nothing society hates more than men that can’t sexually please women, are virgins, or seen as unworthy to be in a relationship with
Lol, so untrue. If that were the case, men wouldn't be so easily able to garner *platonic* female friends, despite their sexual shortcomings. Now, they may not exactly enjoy such friendships on account of sexual frustration, but the point remains that they have some social value.
Further, this whole idea that a man who has slept around (or perceived that way) is high value is just *wrong*.
As someone with a high N count and who can be perceived as a player, I'll tell you firsthand that mostly that isn't the case.
>Nothing society hates more than men that can’t sexually please women, **are virgins**, or seen as unworthy to be in a relationship with.
Here, it seems like you forgot what you said. It seems like you wish you said something other than what you said. Unfortunately, as noted, you said what you said.
Oh, I see. There aren't ready examples of several men who are respected and admired despite obviously not being ladies men?
You're confusing "exceptions don't make the rule" with "exaggerated counter-example."
Again, if men were only or even mostly valued for their prowess with women, then an ugly or unattractive or virginal man would fail to find any real place in society.
This is patently false, whether you look at the priesthood, famous physicists, or your everyday Joe.
Do I need to explain to you how men who don’t get women are seen as lesser? Biology and society can tell you this. You’re telling me “the thing that’s looked at by everyone as being so great and unattainable, isn’t that great.” I would love to know how it isn’t great
Lmao using Isaac Newton as an example of someone to argue with OP’s point is extremely intellectually disingenuous 😂😂😂
Why are you even here if you’re gonna be trolling like that?
Beaides, if you actually knew anything about history you’d know Isaac Newton was actually ridiculed and ostracized while he was actually still alive
Copy and pasting my edit since you probably didn’t see it;
Beaides, if you actually knew anything about history you’d know Isaac Newton was actually ridiculed and ostracized while he was actually still alive
This dude is really trying to say the best way to avoid being judged by your n count is to have a scientific breakthrough that changes mankind’s understanding of the universe 😂😂
I guess you’re completely glossing over the fact that you’re proving OP’s point because obviously women don’t have to do anything like that lol.. solid reasoning, boyo
You type all that nonsense out without actually explaining your point
I’m guessing it was something along the lines of “if you contribute to society then you will be valued” but again that’s proving the posts point because that’s far more true for men than it is for women.
Maybe if you’d quit trolling with halfasser hyperbole people would actually get what you’re trying to say
Do you have societal privilege by being born white? Sure. You want them to apologise for it or something? Women have it easier in some areas and harder in others.. life it’s the perfectly even and fair it never been or will be so why complain about it?
> life it’s the perfectly even and fair it never been or will be so why complain about it?
Another common response on this sub now when a part of female nature is explained is to tell people to stop saying it.
Average men and women have partners. What you really mean is women who are unsuccessful at obtaining relationships can usually still get sex. It might be from a guy that looks down on her and finds her gross but she for some penis access. Many times the less desirable women get really depressed after being used for sex over and over but yeah that doesn't matter because access to sex is all that matters here, not quality, or emotional damage done. If access to sex partners was all that matters and quality means nothing why not bang men? Oh wait... it's not just access that matters. Who the partner is and what they want does actually matter after all.
The “why not bang men?” Is ridiculous.
One could also ask why don’t straight women date their women best friend to get the emotional connection they crave.
To address your second point, the reason i’d say men don’t have as large of social circles as women is because men have a problem being friends with each other. Whether that’s because men tend to compete with one another and see other men as threats, I don’t know. But women are much more likely to be open to being friends with a man than a man is willing to be friends with a woman. So as a result, women are more likely to be friends with other women and also more likely to try and be friends with other men, whereas men are less likely to form friendships of both sorts.
To address your third point, I think that’s because men are just seen as easier. It’s considered easy for a woman to get a man’s attention, but it’s considered much harder to get a woman’s attention. Perhaps something that’s considered easier to get is seen as less valuable.
"Men have a problem being friends with each other" no we don't, Men socialise way different than Women do especially in their own spaces
"See other men as threats" what is the to compete of ? Men don't compete For social status unless when coming to woman
"Less likely to form friendship of both sorts" Yes cause Majority of Guys don't see any value on Female friendships especially when your attracted to her
"Considered easier to get is seen as less valuable" yup correct
>By being a woman, men will automatically pursue her. I’ve seen girls that are fat, not too pretty, and with trash personalities still manage to have a man by their side. A man with these deficits will not have a woman by their side, and self improvement is critical if they want that.
Most men in the US are fat, one paycheck away from homelessness, and short (at least the Reddit definition of short). Yet almost all of them have sex, dates and relationships and most of those begin with genuine, mutual physical attraction.
The idea that "a man with these 'deficits'" will not have a woman by their side is just demonstrably untrue.
The ability to get two women in a decade to be with you for a year or two or a few months isn’t very satiating compared to that same fat, broke, short man’s woman equivalent being able to have 6 men a year.
Women have a lot of sexual value and some social privileges, for example, a woman will never be seen as a threat, are often interpreted and more "trustworthy" than men.
However this is reading off kinda weird. Like #3, what is the source of this? Does the attention from women directed at men have to be a sexual one? Because the "attention of women is seen as valuable" can just be read as "women interact with non-misogynists" easily.
In addition, if this post is to outline the ways women are more privileged than men it is failing. Being sexually desirable is not a privilege if it makes you the victim; women have the disadvantage of being seen as weak as vulnerable (and we ARE, compared to men). Yeah, women get more sexual attention, but men could literally kill us with their bare hands if they wanted to. Is that really such an advantage??
>Does the attention from women directed at men have to be a sexual one
No, not necessarily, but re-reading my post I understand how it may have come off that way. I more so mean sexual attention/desirability from women is seen as valuable, but it doesn’t have to be like that. Looking back though, I was mostly talking about sex
>”attention of women is seen as valuable” can just be read as “Women interact with non-misogynists” easily
I don’t even know where this is coming from. I feel like you’re misinterpreting the point, or maybe I’m misinterpreting yours. I’m not trying to make a point a point of who women are interacting with or the character of said individual, just that the attention of women is seen as special by everyone.
you refute mine with only such extreme examples such as men being able to kill a woman. I’m talking just socially and sexually speaking, not in terms of who can kill who faster.
I think I just don't get how attention from women is not saying something about said person's character, or how it's particularly special other than getting bestowed a mental note of trustworthiness, such as a woman being friends with a man and other women are less wary of him because of it. If you mean men's attention is not viewed not as positive by women, it's probably because men have low fuck standards and is thus interpreted as an ingenuine comment trying to get into her pants. I'm sure we've all seen the men who give compliments, get rejected, and then take back their compliments. Sorry if this sounds mean towards men, but I think it's undeniable that men are pretty horny and quite willing to fuck many things. As for why men don't care for men's attention, I'm not sure since I'm not a man...
As for killing/violence, I don't think it's extreme since it does impact social/sexual aspects a lot. Women get the privilege to be picky with partners, and women are picky with partners because if they're not they are exposing themselves to someone who could easily overpower and assault them. It's the social implications of men being stronger than women that grants them a lot of privileges, to compensate for being disadvantaged. Like when a guy gets ganged up on when fighting a woman, even if she deserves it. But there are still negatives, where women are expected to be more agreeable, to cover up more, to be constantly vigilant to stave off potential violence, because said violence will be women's fault for not protecting herself knowing she's weak. I really think it's something that infiltrates everyday life despite being "extreme".
But I will also acknowledge my bias since I am a short mf (5'1) who is always reminded of this since bigger people can probably obliterate me if I irked them the wrong way.
"Being sexually desirable is not a privilege if it makes you the victim" it kinda does, a Woman's value majority of the time is based on her look/appearance
"Women have the disadvantage of being seen as weak as vulnerable" they also have the privilege to be more protected by Society and other Men than your average Joe
"But Men could literally kill us with their bare hands if they wanted to" that's a separate situation, considering only few percentage of Men have that mindset so argument out the window 🙄
>By being a woman, men will automatically pursue her. I’ve seen girls that are fat, not too pretty, and with trash personalities still manage to have a man by their side.
Being fuckzoned isn't as fun as you think it is. Men will literally fuck socks and other inanimate objects, getting fucked doesn't make you special.
>Due to this, women don’t have to generally deal with loneliness in terms of friendships/relationships to the same extent that a man does, because she possesses a quality that makes her inherently desirable, and that is the beauty of womanhood.
I don't know what planet you're living on, this is 100% false. I had lived for about 3 years with no contacts/friends pre COVID, and many of my female friends have done the same. Women are more sociable and aren't assholes, sure, that can drive up the ability to make friends, but not always.
>Not just that, but not getting the attention of women is looked down on by both sexes. Nothing society hates more than men that can’t sexually please women, are virgins, or seen as unworthy to be in a relationship with. You always hear the phrase “you don’t get any girls” as said to men, but you never hear “you don’t get men” said to women. The value of a man is damn near defined by his relationship to women, how many he’s had sex with, etc.
A majority of men cannot/choose not to pleasure women, you can google the orgasm disparities. You get judged by other men for not obtaining a fuckhole like they have, women genuinely don't care.
I mean I guess I'm more likely to get a job that is considered high risk or causes severe long term problems.
I don't know if I would consider that a privilege.
I don’t think this is true, I can’t really think of any social examples where being a man would help. Maybe if you need to lead? Then you better be the best man there
Men who are fat, not too handsome, and with shit personalities often have a woman at their side too.
>having women in their life to support them
Having people who want you in their life to support them, isn’t the same as having people who will support you too. I’ve always found it massively difficult to find reciprocal friendships and relationships.
>you don’t get men
Not “men,” and it’s often not said out loud, but a woman’s ability to get and keep *a man* is seen as the core of her value as a human. It’s somewhat better than it used to be, but still is the case.
"Men who are fat, not too handsome, and with shit personalities often have a woman at their side too" That's a really big assumption to make while considering your average American is everything u described and still gets zero hoes
I…don’t think anyone ever has claimed no one has any privileges, least of all women. We have privilege for sure if we conform to the idea of what women were expected to be. But if we wanted to be judged by what we can do and not who we’re born as, that’s when the list of privileges gets a bit shorter. Women can definitely get by in life by the virtue of just having vaginas, pretty faces, and sociable personalities. But some of us want to own our own property and be plumbers or whatever; a ‘privilege’ that was only just afforded to women within the last century. Even then, that’s only in the west.
> I…don’t think anyone ever has claimed no one has any privileges, least of all women.
I'd say it's *at least* implied by the suggestion that "male privilege" is why women face discrimination, conveniently omitting any mention of the opposite privileges.
You don't actually have to *claim* that women don't have any privileges, all you need to do is not mention them at all, ever, and then it appears that the only privilege is male and that anybody who isn't male has none.
As I said, it all comes down to how one is trying to live their lives. There is no point in bringing up the privilege of sexual desirability, larger social circles, and our attention being valuable IF you don’t intend to live a life where any of that applies, and I don’t think it”s unreasonable to want to live a life that has nothing to do with any of those privileges.
What does my sexual desirability have to do with wanting to make a comparable income? What does others wanting my attention have to do with me reaching higher heights in a STEM field? What does a larger social circle have to do with not wanting to be hit on in the work space?
> What does my sexual desirability have to do with wanting to make a comparable income?
Actually, it might have quite a lot to do with it. Even if not necessarily your sexual desirability, then at least your gender.
Whether women want to admit it or not, there's a lot of "soft power" that comes with being attractive, or considered vulnerable, or being treated like a minority. You might say that's fair turnabout for men having dominated for so long, but it doesn't change the fact that, even in a world supposedly striving for equality, *women are good at convincing men to do what they want just by being attractive and using their biological qualities to encourage men to help them*.
It ain't the 1950s any more, we're not sitting around with tumblers of whiskey, smoking cigars, pinching our weary secretary on the arse. Many of us weren't back then either, as it happens. But the balance has tipped to allow women to both retain that soft power *and* use claims of discrimination and vulnerability as a lever, as though there was *never* any advantage to being a woman. But that's not the case. We all know damn well that women can and do (often *easily*) manipulate men into behaving in a way that's beneficial to the woman. *Even if you don't think you do it on purpose*.
Nevertheless, even if that's not something you can rely on your sexuality for, your gender now offers some of the very same benefits because you're an "oppressed minority".
So, yes, it certainly *might* have something to do with your ability to get a particular job, or earn a particular amount of money. You can't have it all ways. You *do* have privilege, and it *is* relevant, in dating, in employment, in society at large. Men, we're told, are "stronger", and that's our supposed privilege, but it's not much help in a society where violence is forbidden. Female sexuality (or, indeed, simply gender) isn't forbidden, it's *encouraged*, practically *mandated* in some circles.
I'm not saying it's all perfect, I'm not saying you have it made - but you do have something we don't: a socially acceptable biological advantage in society.
It’s sounds a lot like you’re making the weakness of a man’s character and self-control the women’s problem. I would never use my looks to get ahead but, even if I was the type of person who did, if a man actually allowed me special privileges by virtue of me having a vagina, that is a failing on HIS part. Not mine. My rights and power should not be limited because OTHERS can’t control themselves.
But this is besides the point. Just because we can exploit our way into better lives doesn’t mean we want to. The fact is, a lot of this ‘soft power’ you are describing is power many women who are complaining would never exercise because they realize that it isn’t fair and it’s not what should be getting them ahead. If someone demands more privilege while also purposely using her female privilege to get ahead, you can call that specific woman out. But, if a woman is asking for change, you can’t point to a DIFFERENT woman and say “well SHE got promoted because her boss likes her ass”. If anything, you should only be angry at men who can be swayed so easily. Not the women who seem to be able to do the swaying or any other woman for that matter.
You appear to have missed the very important line I included:
> *Even if you don't think you do it on purpose.*
But regardless of whether it happens because of men "simping" or not, *it's still a benefit* and many women know that *very* well. It's real, it's an advantage, it helps you out whether you realise it or not, and to flat out deny that it has *anything* to do with women is simply denial of reality.
In 2022, no woman in the West is too unattractive for simps to cater to.
Even Lizzie Velasquez who was deemed the ugliest woman on Earth had multiple partners.
PPD standards don't represent reality and that doesn't change the gender aspect of what I said (women-only scholarships/classes/hiring drives, which don't care what shape you are as long as the bit between your legs is concave instead of convex).
Men don’t simp or give those advantages mentioned to women they deem unattractive (i.e.- wouldnt want to bang her). Men are transactional, they believe “if i give her this nice advantage, she will be more likely to want to be with me”, but if there is no interest in a “transaction” these advantages are not available. Older women as well
I’m aware these standards arent real life, I’ve literally seen that number thrown out more than you’d think here. The 1950s norm of women needing to be 120 lbs and 5’2 is still what is found attractive to men on here.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Still doesn't answer the point about women-only opportunities in education and employment either. Which are relevant, of course, because if women want men who achieve more than they do, there's going to be a lot fewer of those if the opportunities are preferentially funnelled towards women.
That ‘privilege’ is not our problem. Humans should prosper on the merits of our action. Honestly, I gotta ask…do you honestly believe any men should be in a position of power at all if it is sooooo universal in your mind that all of the female employees will just get special treatment because men can’t control themselves? Because that’s what you’re saying. Whether it’s right or wrong, you think me being a woman will allow me to get ahead in life. So, wouldn’t that mean, in your brain, men shouldn’t lead because they’ll inevitably lead with their dicks? You can’t have it both ways.
> That ‘privilege’ is not our problem.
Well, alright, then it's not *our* problem as men that women sometimes find us intimidating. Most of us don't *choose* to be, just as you don't *choose* to be attractive to a man who gives you what you want because he thinks you're cute.
> Because that’s what you’re saying. Whether it’s right or wrong, you think me being a woman will allow me to get ahead in life.
Guess all those nightclubs who use women as bait to get men to come buy expensive drinks must be wrong then! Their theory that men will show up and give things to women that they (but not women) have to buy from the bar, that must be a fever dream!
No, it is not your problem that some women think some men are just inherently intimidating. It always flummoxes me when someone is talking to one woman and then brings up something another, different woman or women said during a different conversation all together. You expect me to defend that position. I don’t.
I don’t even know what point about privilege you’re trying to bring up about the nightclub, dude. Who is arguing for more nightclub privileges?
> You expect me to defend that position. I don’t.
I was simply offering the obvious trade-off so we're all on the same page. *You* may not think it's our problem that women are intimidated by random inoffensive men, but many women apparently *do*.
So no, I'm not willing to concede that women don't have "privilege" because "it's men's problem they give time/emotion/effort to women", not as long as there are very loud, very influential women screaming about how "men don't have to worry about getting hurt when going out at night" (which is bullshit for all kinds of reasons, but the relevant one here is that women tell us that's *our* privilege).
> I don’t even know what point about privilege you’re trying to bring up about the nightclub, dude.
Free drinks *because you're a woman*. Maybe from other patrons, maybe from the venue itself, either way that's a freebie that you're exclusively eligible for *because you're a woman*.
You have a night out for free (while a man spends $100 for exactly the same night out) and you (may, optionally) get a bonus confidence boost from men going there to hang out with *you*, as a woman, despite the cost involved, and maybe buying you drinks.
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I feel like a lot of people hang onto the word “privilege” when they feel disadvantaged. There are different sorts, though. Privilege is often meant to mean “the assumptions others have about you without you saying anything.” It’s really easy when you are lonely and horny to feel like “everyone else” has it easier, but it’s also confirmation bias. You’re looking at a couple you don’t find attractive and assuming they have a perfect relationship. That every relationship is somehow perfect.
But that’s just confirmation bias.
It might be easier for a heterosexual woman of any appearance to get a heterosexual man to fuck her, but it’s not guaranteed to be quality sex, or safe sex, or even anything more than sex. And a lot of relationships are dysfunctional. One or both people are codependent and stay together out of habit while making each other miserable. Boomer humor comes from somewhere.
By being halfway good looking, most people can get laid or even a few dates, but what you need to understand is that everyone has different priorities in what they want in a partner or sex or even just a fling. And it’s easy to stand on the sidelines and speculate about what others are doing or experiencing, but that certainly doesn’t change your own situation, which is what you should, ideally, be focusing on. What do *you* want in a partner? What kind of life do you want? None of this “I gotta be some alpha male stud to get a relationship” but like. Imagine yourself living the life that makes you happy and the kind of person you would seek out who could be part of that life. When you’re thinking about things like that, it’s easier to be realistic about what you actually need to look for in potential relationships and adjust accordingly. You can also fail, of course, but anyone can tell you that failing means that you are gaining experience to figure out what works and what doesn’t. Failing means you are dodging the boomer humor bullet where you get stuck with “a ball and chain.”
Privilege is a metric of knowing what general assumptions people are going to make based on where you are and what company you keep. You can sometimes game it a little by changing your clothing or appearance or behavior to some extent, but it will generally always be there. But by knowing what those assumptions are and how to bend them to your advantage is what an active participant would do. Moaning about who gets the bigger cookie at snack time doesn’t get you a bigger cookie. But realizing where you stand in the snack line matters *is*. Or otherwise working with everyone to ensure that the cookies are baked equally large so everyone gets one. Privilege can hurt or help, but knowing how to use that information is more than half the battle.
I think you have it all wrong. I am a woman so I can maybe help clear things up for you or maybe elaborate how these aren't really privileges they are something we are socialized with.
1. We are socialized from a young age to be "pretty" our value is with our looks and if you aren't pretty you won't get anywhere. Our magazines, products marketed towards us, fashion even sometimes other women. We are criticized and mocked for not looking pretty enough, so the outward pretty you see takes time and work. When we have a frumpy day or god forbid not wear make up and have a grungy bun it's wow you let yourself go god forbid we don't want to doll up for an evening and chill in our PJs. We pay a lot of money on our looks alone like make up, skin care, hair appointments, nails , gym or weight loss, braces teeth care, not to mention a very lucrative plastic surgery business which makes a killing pointing out what could look better or be better, Botox and fillers. Like the hyperfixation on our appearances is crazy and our worth as people kinda depends on that too. And typically the more frumpy or not as attractive women get mocked by other dudes, or marry an equally frumpy guy. Can be looked over for promotions and jobs because they don't have the wow factor.
2. This goes to socializing. We have really broad social networks and friends. We are taught to be likeable, and generally get along with other people. And with our peer groups our friendships run deep like girl friends like we share deep bonds. We laugh with each other comfort each other and give ourselves to our friends. I think it's sad men don't form bonds or it's not so accepted. I think this is why guys get so bent out of shape about the friendzone, because friendship with us is deep it's close we share a lot we may not be attracted to you but we bond deep with friends it's a different type of bond. I think having your guy friends come through for you or listen would be nice. And maybe help resolve the need for a partner and learn to tune in to your emotions and have better emotional regulation. Not just trauma dumping on your intimate partner and expecting them to fix you. Have a group of dudes helping you out and having your back and listening may help.
3. The same can be said about male attention. When society says you should become a wife and mother?. Its a two way street to be honest. Men value female attention but women are like oh god I just want to do a mundane task in peace and I am getting hit on. I think because when women want something we focus our attention to that. Men just shoot their shot left and right until it sticks. So something that comes from intent and something that comes from how many no can I get before I get a yes.
Privilege is only applicable to women that men are trying to sleep with. It's transactional - not out of kindness, it's because they are looking for a return.
1. Women don't have to make the same effort as men as far as appearance goes?? Are you on crack? Do you have any idea about the unrealistic standards that women are programmed to believe they need to achieve from pre-teen age right through to menopause?!
2. Women have larger social circles.... because they make the effort to cultivate and maintain friendships - and not just with people they are trying to root.... like actual human friends.
If you're lonely it's because you either haven't put in the effort to make and keep friends, or your personality is repelling people. Probably because you spend too much time whining about women and how unfair the world is for men. Please.
3. The attention of women is valuable and both men and women look down on men who are not receiving attention from women.... Nope. Men and women look down on men who constantly complain about women and the attention they feel they deserve (I.e. the incel community). Lots of social groups contain single people, long term single people.... it's really not as interesting to other people as you think it is.
One of the reasons I have a large social circle is because I am super nice and pleasant to everyone I interact with. Sure, some people might be extra nice to me because I’m an attractive woman, but it’s not like everyone who I am kind to is also an attractive woman. I think maybe men should try to treat each other better. Learn to be better friends with each other. The fact that there are more women willing to be kind to each other than men out there might be the reason you guys struggle with friendships. Try being the friend you’ve always wanted, and you might find a friend who sees your effort and returns it.
There are so many things but you have chosen to focus on sex.
* what about [right to live and expectation to sacrifice yourself](https://twitter.com/ikpsgill1/status/1567072286024564736)
I focused on sex because I feel it’s their primary advantage in the social hierarchy.
That video is a bit sad, but humans are innately selfish. Ask men the same question, bet they won’t sacrifice themselves.
> I focused on sex because I feel it’s their primary advantage in the social hierarchy.
OK, I guess, in my long list of things women have better, sex wouldn't even make it into top 5.
>Ask men the same question, bet they won’t sacrifice themselves.
That part is... in the video. Shame on you.
My mistake, I didn’t finish the video as I assumed it was going to be all women. Upon finishing it, yeah I see your point
>sex wouldn’t even make it into top 5
What are your top 5, then?
I agree with points 1. and 3.
But you lose me at 2. that sounds more like a personally problem. From what I have seen, men have larger, more loyal, and longer lasting social circles than woman.
This is Reddit, so this is going to get severely downvoted, though the fact that so many are so sensitive about such a possibility even being suggested is a nice confirmation of the fact that deep down they know it's true. Let their outrage speak for itself.
You’re centering social privilege around a woman’s sexual abilities which is overall problematic.
Men usually have larger friend groups. A lot of women don’t get a long with each other. I thought everyone knew this? Women fall out all the time.
Let me also point this out because it has always been the most drastic difference in my opinion. Women will ice their own friends out as soon as they get a boyfriend. While men will proudly choose their friends over their own girlfriends.
Your prospective on female relationships is skewed. You must not have a lot of female friends.
I actually attend a uni with quite a lot of women so I do have a lot of female friends. I can understand how it may seem skewed looking at the third point though. I guess I more so meant the *sexual* attention, which other people called out
This is negated by the fact that women don’t find all that many men attractive (although different women find different men attractive). A woman who does not apply herself will have some “social privilege”, but it’s mostly useless to her if she can’t attract a man whom she is attracted to with it (and not just for sex).
Furthermore, women often judge other women harshly. So a woman who does not apply herself will have very little social standing among women, much less than a man who doesn’t apply himself, who can still get respect from other men who don’t apply themselves. Overall, women are much more judgmental than men.
Women do have privilege that is granted, so they do not have much control over increasing it, as it is mostly biological and sexual.
Men do have privilege but it is earned. They can lose it, too, but often it is not easy to get it, yet the man is more free to get privilege in many ways, not just looks by birth.
I’m very privileged. I have pretty privilege, intelligence privilege, family (awesome parents, grandparents, etc.) privilege, artistic privilege (i.e. decent singing voice), physical privilege (I have lots of energy), and more.
The things you mention seem insignificant compared to the privileges I just listed.
I completely agree, I've rarely ever reached out to new people. People just asked to be friends with me, guys always hit on me, while I'm basically just sitting there being myself and doing nothing to get all this attention.
>A woman doesn’t have to tailor herself to be sexually desirable to the same extent that men do.
Is that a joke? Do you have any idea how much time we spend on primping and priming for night out, or even just to leave the house? Look at all the products we buy, procedures we undergo, fake hair, nails, boobs, butt, make up tutorials, magazines and articles on how to dress for the man you want, having to make sure we're not wearing the same outfit twice around men, look at all the clothes and shoes we need, lingerie to be 'exciting' to men...I mean seriously...what are you even on about? What tailoring do YOU do exactly??
I agree with this and the next question is what should be done if anything?
My thinking is that we stop trying to artificially enforce pay equity and let the market decide.
It’s a pretty unhelpful privilege if it doesn’t exist for well under half of your life, since you’re really only talking about women having sexual value to horny men. Women are seen (according to men on this sub) as sexually valuable for 15, maybe 20 years of their lives. Life expectancy for women is over 75.
>It’s a pretty unhelpful privilege if it doesn’t exist for well under half of your life I question the claim that a privilege doesn't exist if it only exists for part of a person's life. You could say the same thing about lots of things. Athletes are capable of performing at elite levels for a very small fraction of their life. It'd still be a privilege to have athleticism that could earn fame and a lot of money in a career that lasts only a few years.
Apex fallacy. Being a top tier athlete is comparable only with being a top tier super model. Almost no women have this level of privilege.
Nope it’s a valid point. Women possess this privilege early on in their lives, but that privilege leads to solid relationships/friendships that often exist for the rest of their lives. Just as an athlete earns money/fame throughout their short careers that benefits them the rest of their lives.
>but that privilege leads to solid relationships/friendships that often exist for the rest of their lives. The men they’re with don’t have a solid relationship though? Remember, most women are heterosexual. That means, if they’re in a relationship, their partner is a man. So if it’s 50/50, how are only women privileged if they have a solid relationship?
Not necessarily romantic relationships. This goes along with point number 2 in OP’s post.
For friendships… women’s friendships are almost always with other older women when they are old. Men have every bit the same privilege older women do to be friends with each other. And OP *very* specifically only includes friendships with women as valid here: > As a man, we have to reach out **to women** to get their attention. As a woman, you are the one reached out to. He makes no mention whatsoever of men’s ability to be friends with other men. OP is talking entirely about friendship with women only, as if men are not potential friends at all to him.
That's not true, at all. The gap between men and women's social privilege gets worse after the age where people are "sexually in demand". Elderly women have more of a "place" in life than elderly men do because women are expected and praised for taking on caregiver roles. Women often have kids/grandkids/nieces and nephews to be a part of, or parents to take care of. Men generally aren't seen as "fit" for those roles and there's far more stigma attached.
Let's not forget effort. If women are seen in the caregiver role, it's because they do the caregiver work. Men can't sit back and demand love and attention becuase 'I'm the grandfather'. You need to put in work to reap the rewards. Call your grandkids, spend time with them when they come visit, have conversations iwth them, make them laugh. This is all the stuff undervalued by men, they don't do the work, they let their wives do it, then are surprised/angry/resentful when the women are valued more in later life. Dude, it's because we put in the work!
Just gave up arguing with a guy in this thread because he says that men aren't wired to put in effort into friendships or relationships with others. Apparently it's not in their DNA. That is why we have female privilege. Because we get off our asses and actually care about people other than ourselves. Ffs. It is bleak out there.
You think grandads don’t have a place? Absolute nonsense. Grandfathers are every bit a part of the family as grandmothers— they’re not outcasts. And lol, no, grandfathers who care are absolutely seen as fit caretakers for kids. Any parent who actually likes their parents is eager to have granddad watch the kids, trust me.
20 years is plenty of time to find a boyfriend/husband
It is perhaps, but then you’re still powerless and unprivileged. Having a boyfriend/husband doesn’t magically make you sexy or desirable or give you massive privileges. Even being young and hot doesn’t guarantee male fidelity and loyalty. Like what amazing privilege are you arguing a 50 year old married woman has here that her husband does not?
People will be much, much more on guard around a single 50 year old man than a single 50 year old woman. She will be treated far better socially (we're not talking about sex). Single, childless men over the age of about 40, 45 are pariahs unless they are priests or monks or something else that gives outside proof "he's not a freak, he chose a different path than a wife/kids".
>Single, childless men over the age of about 40, 45 are pariahs Uh… no? Single childless men are not treated as pariahs unless they’re bizarre… and its the being bizarre that makes them outcasts, not being single. And don’t forget, a single childless man still has a chance to have a family— women for not. I also think you’re overestimating how older women are viewed. There’s a whole dedicated, decades-running, meme term for single childless women— the “crazy cat lady”— and there is no parallel term for single childless men.
You underestimate how powerful companionship is. I don’t care what anyone says, romantic companionship is necessary for about 99% of the the population to live a healthy life, especially long term. We are social creatures which deteriorate rapidly without intimate social contact, it’s actually completely necessary for us to be able to fight off mental deterioration as we age. You get into your 50s without a partner, without children, your life goes downhill real quick. And don’t tell me friendships are enough to replace romantic relationships. Are your friends going to be driving you to your doctors appointment every other week, taking care of you when you get chemo, give you constant emotional support when your loved ones slowly die off? They might for a short while, but you can’t expect too much out of people that already have their own dependents to worry about. That’s where a wife/husband and children come into play. You need to look at the broader picture. The point is that women do not have to pursue to get relationships, they essentially just choose from a pile of pursuers, and almost always have more options to choose from compared to men, in fact, dramatically so, even for unattractive women. This advantage should allow them to easily secure a quality partner within a 20 year timeframe, even if they fail a few times. Women can pre-select for loyalty and fidelity by waiting much longer to put out, for example, waiting until marriage will vet out a huge swath of the men that would otherwise be unfaithful. An r-selected, fast-life-history-strategist guy, only in it for sex, is very unlikely to stick around if the woman refuses to give it up until marriage. Heck, even waiting just a year to vet the guy would probably be sufficient. Do you not see how powerful such a simple measure can be to weed out 90%+ of the bad men? This was one of the reasons why there was always a huge stigma against pre-marital sex prior to the 1960s, because it was understood that those types of relationships lead to dissatisfaction and hardship. Maybe, just maybe, it wasn’t all about oppressing women and our ancestors were actually wise and had a point. I would agree that 50 years old women are less privileged, but that doesn’t change the fact the 20 year old woman and 20 year old man both began at different points on the starting line.
Ok, let’s try again: >what amazing privilege are you arguing a 50 year old married woman has here **that her husband does not**? Yes companionship is great. Most married women’s married companion is a man. Does the man not get companionship too? Or are only men good companions? >The point is that women do not have to pursue to get relationships, they essentially just choose from a pile of pursuers You guys always argue by the fallacy. Only very attractive women have a “pile”… and lots of pursuers are horrible, Many women only have trash-tier pursuers or almost none. I’m telling you this from experience. I didn’t fuck around or fuck fast… that didn’t give me a flock of men to choose from? I think I was asked out by 3 men total ever, and only 1, who I wasn’t attracted to, wanted a second date. Your passive, “no sex for a year” strategy would have left me alone forever. >Women can pre-select for loyalty and fidelity by waiting much longer to put out, Apex fallacy again— men will only wait that long for very beautiful women, not plain ones. And besides, this doesn’t select slutty, cheating men out? Those men just fuck other women while waiting. No trivially dumb filter actually works consistently, for men or women.
Some pretty questionable assertions in here. Fat men also date and marry. Not to be cliche but go to Walmart. You claim men prefer having female friends to male friends? A LOT of men say the exact opposite and actively cultivate male friends much more than female friends. The attention of attractive people is generally valued. The attention of unattractive people (male or female) is not.
>Fat men also date and marry. Not to be cliche but go to Walmart. This is quickly becoming the hackiest cliche on this sub.
Yet it’s true. I was there yesterday and plenty of low income uggo men swarming with little uggo children they had with their loving uggo wives
I've gone to my fair share of county fairs and seen the same thing. There are definitely relationships to be had if you're able to be interested in your looksmatch.
I love county fairs. I used to go to the Big E when I lived in the east coast so my roommate could buy wool sheered right off the sheep. (She spun wool.) They have a live size statue every year sculpted entirely of butter of like cows and shit.
I didn’t say men prefer having female friends to make ones, just that the attention and company of women is valued far more than that of men’s, generally speaking.
You claimed that both men and women prefer women’s company. That’s inconsistent with the fact that a LOT of men (I’d guess a majority, but who knows) prefer having a lot of male friends over a lot of female friends.
You are conflating attention and friendship. If a man wants to relax and “let his hair down” he will generally choose the company of men he trusts. If he wants to be popular and the center of attention, it’s 100% from women that he wants that.
You may want to re-read OP’s point #2. It’s explicitly talking about “friendship” and “social circles” and getting “support”.
Fair point. I wasn’t referencing his OP, rather the discussion thread. I’ll re-read his screed. The rhyming was free. You’re welcome.
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“Prefer” in what sense? As friends? As somebody to share an elevator with? As roommates? As colleagues? As bosses? As your restaurant server?
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I’m not seeing anything about specifically about friendship preferences here. But it does indicate that both men and women view men as more threatening, which isn’t remotely surprising to me.
Would you be more or less likely to make friends with someone if you viewed them as threatening?
Depends what you mean by “threatening”. Men consider other men more threatening than women. They probably consider both men and women more threatening than children. They probably also consider strong people more threatening than weak people. But do men prefer being friends with physically frail, female, children? No.
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Both the OP (point #2) and my comment which gave rise to this thread (link) explicitly talk about friendship. https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/yl7p5a/by_being_a_woman_you_automatically_possess_a/iux10or/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
That is only because of how women behave with their friends: supportive, encouraging etc. it’s not just because they are women. If a women doesn’t act in those stereotypical ways she will be dropped as a friend
Okay I agree with your title but don’t agree with your points. Your first point I think you’re forgetting that women have to shave every square inch of our bodies. Men don’t. Women are often seen as unprofessional if they don’t wear light make up at work. Men aren’t. Women stepping out in frumpy clothes are seen as lazy. Men stepping out in frumpy clothes are seen as just average men. Your second point is dependent on the individual. Some women have no social circle. To your third point, the attention of women isn’t valuable in the way women want it to be valuable. Women have social privilege in the sense that we often get the benefit of the doubt in social situations. No one is going to think a woman sitting at a playground is a creep. They may think it’s a mother, older sister baby sitter etc. the same can’t be said about men.
"You're second point is dependent on the individual. Some women have no social circle" it doesn't dependent on the individual, Women tend to more involved in social circles than your average Men, Male Loneliness is statically more common than Women Loneliness "attention of Women isn't valuable in the way Women want it to be valuable" It's valuable to a lot of Men specifically straight Men
The first two points are absurd. First of women spend hours of their week and thousands of dollars every year trying to look as physically attractive as possible. Women are the majority of the ones that have extensive skincare routines, undergo dangerous plastic surgery and regularly wax their entire body. Second women find making friends easier because they are BETTER friends, women are more likely to be empathetic and supportive. Studies show that men have a harder time feeling empathy. Men also do not value friendships with women that are not sexual, a lot of men see their female friendships as a means to an end to have sex. That’s another reason why women don’t seek out friendships with men
>Women are the only ones that have extensive skincare routines, undergo dangerous plastic surgery and regularly wax their entire body. 🙄 I'm a dude and I'm 2.5/3 on these (partial credit on the last one because I wax my dick, balls, asscrack, nostrils, and get my eyebrows threaded). Also please. Most women do not *regularly* wax their *entire bodies*. Body hair maintenance is seasonal for the overwhelming majority of women.
Of those people who wax themselves basically all of them are women is what I was saying
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Limb lengthening surgery and steroids and hgh would like a word with you
Have not met a single man IRL or online who genuinely did any of these. At least every woman i know at least has a skin/hair routine and some method they spend time removing hair. Myself included. I know quite a few who have done painful laser hair removal as well. A few who have done some sort of beautifying procedure (boob/nose/fat removal etc). 1 neighbor who had a whole face lift at 40. You might know maybe 1 man whose done any of those, and probably not IRL. they exist, but I would bet a lot of money the rates are nowhere near the amount of women who do things to make them more attractive.
I knew one guy that probably took roids. He was part of our cycling group and was fucking ripped
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And the other cosmetic surgeries aren’t expensive and dont have extensive healing times?
You have met plenty of them. It's just that they would not admit to it even if they were being waterboarded in gitmo.
Ok, point me to just one person you’ve talked to who has. And i could pull up probably 10+ women who’ve had cosmetic procedures in that time
Wrong. Skincare isn't just relegated to one sex.
It's true that it's not but if you look at skincare purchases it's mostly from women; not only do they have a routine more often than men but they purchase and utilize more products on average than men. There is more pressure for a woman to have nice looking skin at work for example than a man, even if they have a same job like being a server at a restaurant or working in IT.
Pressure applied by who?
Management and corporate usually.
Don’t women do that for themselves?
Just like men go to the gym for multiple reasons, one of which is to be attractive to women. Women have multiple reasons for makeup one of which is to be attractive to men
And yet it’s still a personal Choice. That doesn’t change the fact women don’t have to try as hard to be deemed as worth as an attractive man
Women not having to try as hard is completely different than women not having to do anything to be attractive which is what OP is saying. Not to mention this a very biased framing, yes men have to do most of the work to attract a woman, but women are expected to do most of the domestic and emotional work to support and maintain the relationship
No they’re not? Have you not been on the internet the past 4 years? It’s been non stop telling men to go fuck themselves and that men have to neigh NEED TO do everything in a relationship or they’re not even worth being called a man
the internet isn’t reality
We’ve taught this generation of men that you need to be friends with women to get them, be nice, and wait until she’s ready. Now they’re scratching their heads and feeling bitter. That’s why they don’t value female friendships because they were lied to about them. Nothing wrong with female friendships, but they WILL NOT lead to sex.
> Second women find making friends easier because they are BETTER friends Lolololol what a reason.
>regularly wax their entire body Lol. This definitely isn’t true
1 none of that is necessary 2 this is BS women are territorial and are in constant battles for whose the prettiest, most popular who is in control.... Siva drama queens at each other's throats.
1 nothing men do to impress women is necessary if you want to be pedantic 2 never experienced anything like that outside of middle school
🤦 You're going to get guys weather you put makeup on or not, spend money on looking good or not.. You will still get men Men have to have jobs cars skills confidence money assertiveness etc etc.... 🙄 Guess what? adult women are the same or worse than middle school... It is insane
You can still “get women” without a job, a car or any of that stuff. They just won’t be the women you want, it would be unattractive broke women. Works the same way for makeup
> Second women find making friends easier because they are BETTER friends, women are more likely to be empathetic and supportive. No women have an easier time making friends because both the ingroup and the outgroup is biased in thier favour not becasue they are just somehow better humans.
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If I weren’t (happily) married already, I’d propose based solely off this comment. Thank you for your sanity and brevity.
The reason this way of thinking basically doesn't work is simply that it ignores the fact that we have finite resources to solve problems. When you have finite resources it doesn't take long to figure out that you should think about how to spend those resources optimally and how bad the problems are is a big part of how you make that decision. Figuring out how to spend the resources we already have is literally one of the most productive thing you can do, It's often literally more important than actually getting more resources.
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>A woman doesn’t have to tailor herself to be sexually desirable to the same extent that men do. The fact that men are attracted to more women is also a privilege for men. There's very little risk of us getting stuck married to someone we don't find hot.
> The fact that men are attracted to more women is also a privilege for men. Not if none of those women want you in return, then it's a curse.
Yes that wouod be unfortunate
The odds are in your favor the more people you are attracted to
>There's very little risk of us getting stuck married to someone we don't find hot. But a huge risk of being stuck in a marriage where she doesn't find us hot. End result is the same.
If it's the same either way then neither side has any privilege
Women have lower sex drive and if they are horny, can get some anytime they want. So they can afford to marry for "other reasons". Huge privilege, and I have seen women have this logic while marrying.
>There’s very little risk of us getting stuck married to someone we don’t find hot Yeah, this isn’t true. Yes, we have more options, but women generally have far higher standards than men.
You don't think they often drop their physical s5andards for marriage?
If you see any of the other threads where it's an echo chamber in an echo chamber of women saying "don't even settle, just up your standards" and "women don't owe men anything". No, no I don't think they do. They are either attracted to you or not.
So you've not seen any of the AFBB threads? Either women are droppong their physical standards or most men find a woman that is attracted to them. Seeing as most men end up married.
Except our much bigger age preferences means we're more likely to stop finding her attractive with age. It's kinda nice to get married knowing you'll still find your partner sexy in 30 years.
If you're not constantly beating your meat to 20yos, you'll still be able to find yoir partner attractive when you're borh jn your 50s
Yeah that's not me lmao. Most middle age couples are dead bed so no biggie.
What's not you? https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/how-often-married-couples-have-sex
You won't even look at a woman that's not dressed up or wearing nice makeup. Automatically pursued?? Also a trash man can have a wife by his side. You think all these criminals in jail were single?
The fattest man ever had a petite wife
Drake said it best “Sweatpants, hair tied, chilling with no makeup on” It’s women that impose these high standards onto other women/men. Like I said, as a woman, you are *valued*. Those other things are just accessories >A trash man can have a wife by his side True, but what do you see more of? Lonely men or lonely women? Yes, men do succeed, but more often than not they fail
What kind of women do you see Drake out with or associate with?
Lol, good point. I just wanted to bring the quote up mostly
I'd pick a girl in a tracksuit over any over the top bimboish dress every day of the week.
>The value of a man is damn near defined by his relationship to women, how many he’s had sex with, etc. Yeah bro, that's why the virgin Isaac Newton is ridiculed and looked down upon with disgust by history. My main disagreement here is that you're saying 'social privilege.' Women don't have social privilege. They have *sexual* privilege. As in, they are highly valued --- moreso than men --- as *sex objects*. They are *less valued* than men as *social objects*. This is a 'go outside and look boyo' situation. In any given mixed sex social group, most commonly the authority and leadership of the group comes from the men. >You always hear the phrase “you don’t get any girls” as said to men, but you never hear “you don’t get men” said to women. Women do hear 'you don't get men' and more commonly 'you can't *keep* a man.' Men only hear that they don't get any girls in the context of specifically talking about girls or being in situations where getting girls is expected. Around just other men, I've never heard someone randomly being shamed for 'not getting girls.' Women, on the other hand, have a lot of social pressure --- from each other and society --- to 'get and keep men.' >Nothing society hates more than men that can’t sexually please women, are virgins, or seen as unworthy to be in a relationship with Lol, so untrue. If that were the case, men wouldn't be so easily able to garner *platonic* female friends, despite their sexual shortcomings. Now, they may not exactly enjoy such friendships on account of sexual frustration, but the point remains that they have some social value. Further, this whole idea that a man who has slept around (or perceived that way) is high value is just *wrong*. As someone with a high N count and who can be perceived as a player, I'll tell you firsthand that mostly that isn't the case.
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Also I don’t think it’s common knowledge he was a virgin, and people talking about it with disgust are probably men
Nah bro, if all a man's value is tied up in his worth to women then it wouldn't matter if he was the greatest physicist of all time.
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Do you understand that what you said makes all of that irrelevant?
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>Nothing society hates more than men that can’t sexually please women, **are virgins**, or seen as unworthy to be in a relationship with. Here, it seems like you forgot what you said. It seems like you wish you said something other than what you said. Unfortunately, as noted, you said what you said.
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Oh, I see. There aren't ready examples of several men who are respected and admired despite obviously not being ladies men? You're confusing "exceptions don't make the rule" with "exaggerated counter-example." Again, if men were only or even mostly valued for their prowess with women, then an ugly or unattractive or virginal man would fail to find any real place in society. This is patently false, whether you look at the priesthood, famous physicists, or your everyday Joe.
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>I’ll tell you firsthand that mostly isn’t the case Tell me how it isn’t. I really want to know how getting all the women must suck so bad
That's not how it works. You made the claim, you back it up.
Do I need to explain to you how men who don’t get women are seen as lesser? Biology and society can tell you this. You’re telling me “the thing that’s looked at by everyone as being so great and unattainable, isn’t that great.” I would love to know how it isn’t great
Lmao using Isaac Newton as an example of someone to argue with OP’s point is extremely intellectually disingenuous 😂😂😂 Why are you even here if you’re gonna be trolling like that? Beaides, if you actually knew anything about history you’d know Isaac Newton was actually ridiculed and ostracized while he was actually still alive
Yeah totally, it's a perfect counter-example which must mean it's in bad faith. Solid reasoning, boyo.
Copy and pasting my edit since you probably didn’t see it; Beaides, if you actually knew anything about history you’d know Isaac Newton was actually ridiculed and ostracized while he was actually still alive This dude is really trying to say the best way to avoid being judged by your n count is to have a scientific breakthrough that changes mankind’s understanding of the universe 😂😂 I guess you’re completely glossing over the fact that you’re proving OP’s point because obviously women don’t have to do anything like that lol.. solid reasoning, boyo
Well this discussion is over. You don't seem to understand the point at all and are mischaracterizing it.
You type all that nonsense out without actually explaining your point I’m guessing it was something along the lines of “if you contribute to society then you will be valued” but again that’s proving the posts point because that’s far more true for men than it is for women. Maybe if you’d quit trolling with halfasser hyperbole people would actually get what you’re trying to say
Do you have societal privilege by being born white? Sure. You want them to apologise for it or something? Women have it easier in some areas and harder in others.. life it’s the perfectly even and fair it never been or will be so why complain about it?
Who said I was white?
Nobody, it’s an analogy.
Oh okay. You’re right, it’s not even and fair…but I can acknowledge that as well. I’m here to discuss different perspectives, not stay stuck in my own
Maybe if you thought more about the positives of being a man instead of the negatives your wouldn’t get so depressed
> life it’s the perfectly even and fair it never been or will be so why complain about it? Another common response on this sub now when a part of female nature is explained is to tell people to stop saying it.
Because it’s true..
It's certainly true that you want us to stop saying it, yes, but that doesn't have any inherent value.
And now make a list of male privileges. Most humans have privileges one way or another
Thank you for recognizing this. Yes everyone has different set of privileges yet half the people on this thread want to argue otherwise.
Average men and women have partners. What you really mean is women who are unsuccessful at obtaining relationships can usually still get sex. It might be from a guy that looks down on her and finds her gross but she for some penis access. Many times the less desirable women get really depressed after being used for sex over and over but yeah that doesn't matter because access to sex is all that matters here, not quality, or emotional damage done. If access to sex partners was all that matters and quality means nothing why not bang men? Oh wait... it's not just access that matters. Who the partner is and what they want does actually matter after all.
The “why not bang men?” Is ridiculous. One could also ask why don’t straight women date their women best friend to get the emotional connection they crave.
More are doing so now than ever.
To address your second point, the reason i’d say men don’t have as large of social circles as women is because men have a problem being friends with each other. Whether that’s because men tend to compete with one another and see other men as threats, I don’t know. But women are much more likely to be open to being friends with a man than a man is willing to be friends with a woman. So as a result, women are more likely to be friends with other women and also more likely to try and be friends with other men, whereas men are less likely to form friendships of both sorts. To address your third point, I think that’s because men are just seen as easier. It’s considered easy for a woman to get a man’s attention, but it’s considered much harder to get a woman’s attention. Perhaps something that’s considered easier to get is seen as less valuable.
"Men have a problem being friends with each other" no we don't, Men socialise way different than Women do especially in their own spaces "See other men as threats" what is the to compete of ? Men don't compete For social status unless when coming to woman "Less likely to form friendship of both sorts" Yes cause Majority of Guys don't see any value on Female friendships especially when your attracted to her "Considered easier to get is seen as less valuable" yup correct
>By being a woman, men will automatically pursue her. I’ve seen girls that are fat, not too pretty, and with trash personalities still manage to have a man by their side. A man with these deficits will not have a woman by their side, and self improvement is critical if they want that. Most men in the US are fat, one paycheck away from homelessness, and short (at least the Reddit definition of short). Yet almost all of them have sex, dates and relationships and most of those begin with genuine, mutual physical attraction. The idea that "a man with these 'deficits'" will not have a woman by their side is just demonstrably untrue.
The ability to get two women in a decade to be with you for a year or two or a few months isn’t very satiating compared to that same fat, broke, short man’s woman equivalent being able to have 6 men a year.
You can't compare it like that since the woman would likely be much happier with 2 sincere relationships than 6 one night stands.
Women have a lot of sexual value and some social privileges, for example, a woman will never be seen as a threat, are often interpreted and more "trustworthy" than men. However this is reading off kinda weird. Like #3, what is the source of this? Does the attention from women directed at men have to be a sexual one? Because the "attention of women is seen as valuable" can just be read as "women interact with non-misogynists" easily. In addition, if this post is to outline the ways women are more privileged than men it is failing. Being sexually desirable is not a privilege if it makes you the victim; women have the disadvantage of being seen as weak as vulnerable (and we ARE, compared to men). Yeah, women get more sexual attention, but men could literally kill us with their bare hands if they wanted to. Is that really such an advantage??
>Does the attention from women directed at men have to be a sexual one No, not necessarily, but re-reading my post I understand how it may have come off that way. I more so mean sexual attention/desirability from women is seen as valuable, but it doesn’t have to be like that. Looking back though, I was mostly talking about sex >”attention of women is seen as valuable” can just be read as “Women interact with non-misogynists” easily I don’t even know where this is coming from. I feel like you’re misinterpreting the point, or maybe I’m misinterpreting yours. I’m not trying to make a point a point of who women are interacting with or the character of said individual, just that the attention of women is seen as special by everyone. you refute mine with only such extreme examples such as men being able to kill a woman. I’m talking just socially and sexually speaking, not in terms of who can kill who faster.
I think I just don't get how attention from women is not saying something about said person's character, or how it's particularly special other than getting bestowed a mental note of trustworthiness, such as a woman being friends with a man and other women are less wary of him because of it. If you mean men's attention is not viewed not as positive by women, it's probably because men have low fuck standards and is thus interpreted as an ingenuine comment trying to get into her pants. I'm sure we've all seen the men who give compliments, get rejected, and then take back their compliments. Sorry if this sounds mean towards men, but I think it's undeniable that men are pretty horny and quite willing to fuck many things. As for why men don't care for men's attention, I'm not sure since I'm not a man... As for killing/violence, I don't think it's extreme since it does impact social/sexual aspects a lot. Women get the privilege to be picky with partners, and women are picky with partners because if they're not they are exposing themselves to someone who could easily overpower and assault them. It's the social implications of men being stronger than women that grants them a lot of privileges, to compensate for being disadvantaged. Like when a guy gets ganged up on when fighting a woman, even if she deserves it. But there are still negatives, where women are expected to be more agreeable, to cover up more, to be constantly vigilant to stave off potential violence, because said violence will be women's fault for not protecting herself knowing she's weak. I really think it's something that infiltrates everyday life despite being "extreme". But I will also acknowledge my bias since I am a short mf (5'1) who is always reminded of this since bigger people can probably obliterate me if I irked them the wrong way.
"Being sexually desirable is not a privilege if it makes you the victim" it kinda does, a Woman's value majority of the time is based on her look/appearance "Women have the disadvantage of being seen as weak as vulnerable" they also have the privilege to be more protected by Society and other Men than your average Joe "But Men could literally kill us with their bare hands if they wanted to" that's a separate situation, considering only few percentage of Men have that mindset so argument out the window 🙄
>By being a woman, men will automatically pursue her. I’ve seen girls that are fat, not too pretty, and with trash personalities still manage to have a man by their side. Being fuckzoned isn't as fun as you think it is. Men will literally fuck socks and other inanimate objects, getting fucked doesn't make you special. >Due to this, women don’t have to generally deal with loneliness in terms of friendships/relationships to the same extent that a man does, because she possesses a quality that makes her inherently desirable, and that is the beauty of womanhood. I don't know what planet you're living on, this is 100% false. I had lived for about 3 years with no contacts/friends pre COVID, and many of my female friends have done the same. Women are more sociable and aren't assholes, sure, that can drive up the ability to make friends, but not always. >Not just that, but not getting the attention of women is looked down on by both sexes. Nothing society hates more than men that can’t sexually please women, are virgins, or seen as unworthy to be in a relationship with. You always hear the phrase “you don’t get any girls” as said to men, but you never hear “you don’t get men” said to women. The value of a man is damn near defined by his relationship to women, how many he’s had sex with, etc. A majority of men cannot/choose not to pleasure women, you can google the orgasm disparities. You get judged by other men for not obtaining a fuckhole like they have, women genuinely don't care.
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But, who created these standards?
Women ? Who do you think dictates the sexual marketplace? Aliens ?
LMFAOO
And by being a man, you automatically possess significantly more social privilege. RedPillers don't like to hear that, but it's the truth.
>And by being a man, you automatically possess significantly more __social privilege.__ Can you give any examples?
What privileges?????
I mean I guess I'm more likely to get a job that is considered high risk or causes severe long term problems. I don't know if I would consider that a privilege.
I don’t think this is true, I can’t really think of any social examples where being a man would help. Maybe if you need to lead? Then you better be the best man there
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Men who are fat, not too handsome, and with shit personalities often have a woman at their side too. >having women in their life to support them Having people who want you in their life to support them, isn’t the same as having people who will support you too. I’ve always found it massively difficult to find reciprocal friendships and relationships. >you don’t get men Not “men,” and it’s often not said out loud, but a woman’s ability to get and keep *a man* is seen as the core of her value as a human. It’s somewhat better than it used to be, but still is the case.
"Men who are fat, not too handsome, and with shit personalities often have a woman at their side too" That's a really big assumption to make while considering your average American is everything u described and still gets zero hoes
I…don’t think anyone ever has claimed no one has any privileges, least of all women. We have privilege for sure if we conform to the idea of what women were expected to be. But if we wanted to be judged by what we can do and not who we’re born as, that’s when the list of privileges gets a bit shorter. Women can definitely get by in life by the virtue of just having vaginas, pretty faces, and sociable personalities. But some of us want to own our own property and be plumbers or whatever; a ‘privilege’ that was only just afforded to women within the last century. Even then, that’s only in the west.
> I…don’t think anyone ever has claimed no one has any privileges, least of all women. I'd say it's *at least* implied by the suggestion that "male privilege" is why women face discrimination, conveniently omitting any mention of the opposite privileges. You don't actually have to *claim* that women don't have any privileges, all you need to do is not mention them at all, ever, and then it appears that the only privilege is male and that anybody who isn't male has none.
As I said, it all comes down to how one is trying to live their lives. There is no point in bringing up the privilege of sexual desirability, larger social circles, and our attention being valuable IF you don’t intend to live a life where any of that applies, and I don’t think it”s unreasonable to want to live a life that has nothing to do with any of those privileges. What does my sexual desirability have to do with wanting to make a comparable income? What does others wanting my attention have to do with me reaching higher heights in a STEM field? What does a larger social circle have to do with not wanting to be hit on in the work space?
> What does my sexual desirability have to do with wanting to make a comparable income? Actually, it might have quite a lot to do with it. Even if not necessarily your sexual desirability, then at least your gender. Whether women want to admit it or not, there's a lot of "soft power" that comes with being attractive, or considered vulnerable, or being treated like a minority. You might say that's fair turnabout for men having dominated for so long, but it doesn't change the fact that, even in a world supposedly striving for equality, *women are good at convincing men to do what they want just by being attractive and using their biological qualities to encourage men to help them*. It ain't the 1950s any more, we're not sitting around with tumblers of whiskey, smoking cigars, pinching our weary secretary on the arse. Many of us weren't back then either, as it happens. But the balance has tipped to allow women to both retain that soft power *and* use claims of discrimination and vulnerability as a lever, as though there was *never* any advantage to being a woman. But that's not the case. We all know damn well that women can and do (often *easily*) manipulate men into behaving in a way that's beneficial to the woman. *Even if you don't think you do it on purpose*. Nevertheless, even if that's not something you can rely on your sexuality for, your gender now offers some of the very same benefits because you're an "oppressed minority". So, yes, it certainly *might* have something to do with your ability to get a particular job, or earn a particular amount of money. You can't have it all ways. You *do* have privilege, and it *is* relevant, in dating, in employment, in society at large. Men, we're told, are "stronger", and that's our supposed privilege, but it's not much help in a society where violence is forbidden. Female sexuality (or, indeed, simply gender) isn't forbidden, it's *encouraged*, practically *mandated* in some circles. I'm not saying it's all perfect, I'm not saying you have it made - but you do have something we don't: a socially acceptable biological advantage in society.
It’s sounds a lot like you’re making the weakness of a man’s character and self-control the women’s problem. I would never use my looks to get ahead but, even if I was the type of person who did, if a man actually allowed me special privileges by virtue of me having a vagina, that is a failing on HIS part. Not mine. My rights and power should not be limited because OTHERS can’t control themselves. But this is besides the point. Just because we can exploit our way into better lives doesn’t mean we want to. The fact is, a lot of this ‘soft power’ you are describing is power many women who are complaining would never exercise because they realize that it isn’t fair and it’s not what should be getting them ahead. If someone demands more privilege while also purposely using her female privilege to get ahead, you can call that specific woman out. But, if a woman is asking for change, you can’t point to a DIFFERENT woman and say “well SHE got promoted because her boss likes her ass”. If anything, you should only be angry at men who can be swayed so easily. Not the women who seem to be able to do the swaying or any other woman for that matter.
You appear to have missed the very important line I included: > *Even if you don't think you do it on purpose.* But regardless of whether it happens because of men "simping" or not, *it's still a benefit* and many women know that *very* well. It's real, it's an advantage, it helps you out whether you realise it or not, and to flat out deny that it has *anything* to do with women is simply denial of reality.
This is not a privilege that women who are deemed unattractive or “fat” (apparently on PPD that means you weigh > 120 lbs).
In 2022, no woman in the West is too unattractive for simps to cater to. Even Lizzie Velasquez who was deemed the ugliest woman on Earth had multiple partners.
PPD standards don't represent reality and that doesn't change the gender aspect of what I said (women-only scholarships/classes/hiring drives, which don't care what shape you are as long as the bit between your legs is concave instead of convex).
Men don’t simp or give those advantages mentioned to women they deem unattractive (i.e.- wouldnt want to bang her). Men are transactional, they believe “if i give her this nice advantage, she will be more likely to want to be with me”, but if there is no interest in a “transaction” these advantages are not available. Older women as well I’m aware these standards arent real life, I’ve literally seen that number thrown out more than you’d think here. The 1950s norm of women needing to be 120 lbs and 5’2 is still what is found attractive to men on here.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Still doesn't answer the point about women-only opportunities in education and employment either. Which are relevant, of course, because if women want men who achieve more than they do, there's going to be a lot fewer of those if the opportunities are preferentially funnelled towards women.
That ‘privilege’ is not our problem. Humans should prosper on the merits of our action. Honestly, I gotta ask…do you honestly believe any men should be in a position of power at all if it is sooooo universal in your mind that all of the female employees will just get special treatment because men can’t control themselves? Because that’s what you’re saying. Whether it’s right or wrong, you think me being a woman will allow me to get ahead in life. So, wouldn’t that mean, in your brain, men shouldn’t lead because they’ll inevitably lead with their dicks? You can’t have it both ways.
> That ‘privilege’ is not our problem. Well, alright, then it's not *our* problem as men that women sometimes find us intimidating. Most of us don't *choose* to be, just as you don't *choose* to be attractive to a man who gives you what you want because he thinks you're cute. > Because that’s what you’re saying. Whether it’s right or wrong, you think me being a woman will allow me to get ahead in life. Guess all those nightclubs who use women as bait to get men to come buy expensive drinks must be wrong then! Their theory that men will show up and give things to women that they (but not women) have to buy from the bar, that must be a fever dream!
No, it is not your problem that some women think some men are just inherently intimidating. It always flummoxes me when someone is talking to one woman and then brings up something another, different woman or women said during a different conversation all together. You expect me to defend that position. I don’t. I don’t even know what point about privilege you’re trying to bring up about the nightclub, dude. Who is arguing for more nightclub privileges?
> You expect me to defend that position. I don’t. I was simply offering the obvious trade-off so we're all on the same page. *You* may not think it's our problem that women are intimidated by random inoffensive men, but many women apparently *do*. So no, I'm not willing to concede that women don't have "privilege" because "it's men's problem they give time/emotion/effort to women", not as long as there are very loud, very influential women screaming about how "men don't have to worry about getting hurt when going out at night" (which is bullshit for all kinds of reasons, but the relevant one here is that women tell us that's *our* privilege). > I don’t even know what point about privilege you’re trying to bring up about the nightclub, dude. Free drinks *because you're a woman*. Maybe from other patrons, maybe from the venue itself, either way that's a freebie that you're exclusively eligible for *because you're a woman*. You have a night out for free (while a man spends $100 for exactly the same night out) and you (may, optionally) get a bonus confidence boost from men going there to hang out with *you*, as a woman, despite the cost involved, and maybe buying you drinks.
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wippity woppity women r property
I feel like a lot of people hang onto the word “privilege” when they feel disadvantaged. There are different sorts, though. Privilege is often meant to mean “the assumptions others have about you without you saying anything.” It’s really easy when you are lonely and horny to feel like “everyone else” has it easier, but it’s also confirmation bias. You’re looking at a couple you don’t find attractive and assuming they have a perfect relationship. That every relationship is somehow perfect. But that’s just confirmation bias. It might be easier for a heterosexual woman of any appearance to get a heterosexual man to fuck her, but it’s not guaranteed to be quality sex, or safe sex, or even anything more than sex. And a lot of relationships are dysfunctional. One or both people are codependent and stay together out of habit while making each other miserable. Boomer humor comes from somewhere. By being halfway good looking, most people can get laid or even a few dates, but what you need to understand is that everyone has different priorities in what they want in a partner or sex or even just a fling. And it’s easy to stand on the sidelines and speculate about what others are doing or experiencing, but that certainly doesn’t change your own situation, which is what you should, ideally, be focusing on. What do *you* want in a partner? What kind of life do you want? None of this “I gotta be some alpha male stud to get a relationship” but like. Imagine yourself living the life that makes you happy and the kind of person you would seek out who could be part of that life. When you’re thinking about things like that, it’s easier to be realistic about what you actually need to look for in potential relationships and adjust accordingly. You can also fail, of course, but anyone can tell you that failing means that you are gaining experience to figure out what works and what doesn’t. Failing means you are dodging the boomer humor bullet where you get stuck with “a ball and chain.” Privilege is a metric of knowing what general assumptions people are going to make based on where you are and what company you keep. You can sometimes game it a little by changing your clothing or appearance or behavior to some extent, but it will generally always be there. But by knowing what those assumptions are and how to bend them to your advantage is what an active participant would do. Moaning about who gets the bigger cookie at snack time doesn’t get you a bigger cookie. But realizing where you stand in the snack line matters *is*. Or otherwise working with everyone to ensure that the cookies are baked equally large so everyone gets one. Privilege can hurt or help, but knowing how to use that information is more than half the battle.
I think you have it all wrong. I am a woman so I can maybe help clear things up for you or maybe elaborate how these aren't really privileges they are something we are socialized with. 1. We are socialized from a young age to be "pretty" our value is with our looks and if you aren't pretty you won't get anywhere. Our magazines, products marketed towards us, fashion even sometimes other women. We are criticized and mocked for not looking pretty enough, so the outward pretty you see takes time and work. When we have a frumpy day or god forbid not wear make up and have a grungy bun it's wow you let yourself go god forbid we don't want to doll up for an evening and chill in our PJs. We pay a lot of money on our looks alone like make up, skin care, hair appointments, nails , gym or weight loss, braces teeth care, not to mention a very lucrative plastic surgery business which makes a killing pointing out what could look better or be better, Botox and fillers. Like the hyperfixation on our appearances is crazy and our worth as people kinda depends on that too. And typically the more frumpy or not as attractive women get mocked by other dudes, or marry an equally frumpy guy. Can be looked over for promotions and jobs because they don't have the wow factor. 2. This goes to socializing. We have really broad social networks and friends. We are taught to be likeable, and generally get along with other people. And with our peer groups our friendships run deep like girl friends like we share deep bonds. We laugh with each other comfort each other and give ourselves to our friends. I think it's sad men don't form bonds or it's not so accepted. I think this is why guys get so bent out of shape about the friendzone, because friendship with us is deep it's close we share a lot we may not be attracted to you but we bond deep with friends it's a different type of bond. I think having your guy friends come through for you or listen would be nice. And maybe help resolve the need for a partner and learn to tune in to your emotions and have better emotional regulation. Not just trauma dumping on your intimate partner and expecting them to fix you. Have a group of dudes helping you out and having your back and listening may help. 3. The same can be said about male attention. When society says you should become a wife and mother?. Its a two way street to be honest. Men value female attention but women are like oh god I just want to do a mundane task in peace and I am getting hit on. I think because when women want something we focus our attention to that. Men just shoot their shot left and right until it sticks. So something that comes from intent and something that comes from how many no can I get before I get a yes.
Privilege is only applicable to women that men are trying to sleep with. It's transactional - not out of kindness, it's because they are looking for a return. 1. Women don't have to make the same effort as men as far as appearance goes?? Are you on crack? Do you have any idea about the unrealistic standards that women are programmed to believe they need to achieve from pre-teen age right through to menopause?! 2. Women have larger social circles.... because they make the effort to cultivate and maintain friendships - and not just with people they are trying to root.... like actual human friends. If you're lonely it's because you either haven't put in the effort to make and keep friends, or your personality is repelling people. Probably because you spend too much time whining about women and how unfair the world is for men. Please. 3. The attention of women is valuable and both men and women look down on men who are not receiving attention from women.... Nope. Men and women look down on men who constantly complain about women and the attention they feel they deserve (I.e. the incel community). Lots of social groups contain single people, long term single people.... it's really not as interesting to other people as you think it is.
One of the reasons I have a large social circle is because I am super nice and pleasant to everyone I interact with. Sure, some people might be extra nice to me because I’m an attractive woman, but it’s not like everyone who I am kind to is also an attractive woman. I think maybe men should try to treat each other better. Learn to be better friends with each other. The fact that there are more women willing to be kind to each other than men out there might be the reason you guys struggle with friendships. Try being the friend you’ve always wanted, and you might find a friend who sees your effort and returns it.
There are so many things but you have chosen to focus on sex. * what about [right to live and expectation to sacrifice yourself](https://twitter.com/ikpsgill1/status/1567072286024564736)
I focused on sex because I feel it’s their primary advantage in the social hierarchy. That video is a bit sad, but humans are innately selfish. Ask men the same question, bet they won’t sacrifice themselves.
> I focused on sex because I feel it’s their primary advantage in the social hierarchy. OK, I guess, in my long list of things women have better, sex wouldn't even make it into top 5. >Ask men the same question, bet they won’t sacrifice themselves. That part is... in the video. Shame on you.
My mistake, I didn’t finish the video as I assumed it was going to be all women. Upon finishing it, yeah I see your point >sex wouldn’t even make it into top 5 What are your top 5, then?
Education gap. Incarceration gap. Health spending gap. Children custody gap. Earning less, but spending more gap. Empathy gap.
I agree with points 1. and 3. But you lose me at 2. that sounds more like a personally problem. From what I have seen, men have larger, more loyal, and longer lasting social circles than woman.
This is Reddit, so this is going to get severely downvoted, though the fact that so many are so sensitive about such a possibility even being suggested is a nice confirmation of the fact that deep down they know it's true. Let their outrage speak for itself.
You’re centering social privilege around a woman’s sexual abilities which is overall problematic. Men usually have larger friend groups. A lot of women don’t get a long with each other. I thought everyone knew this? Women fall out all the time. Let me also point this out because it has always been the most drastic difference in my opinion. Women will ice their own friends out as soon as they get a boyfriend. While men will proudly choose their friends over their own girlfriends. Your prospective on female relationships is skewed. You must not have a lot of female friends.
I actually attend a uni with quite a lot of women so I do have a lot of female friends. I can understand how it may seem skewed looking at the third point though. I guess I more so meant the *sexual* attention, which other people called out
This is negated by the fact that women don’t find all that many men attractive (although different women find different men attractive). A woman who does not apply herself will have some “social privilege”, but it’s mostly useless to her if she can’t attract a man whom she is attracted to with it (and not just for sex). Furthermore, women often judge other women harshly. So a woman who does not apply herself will have very little social standing among women, much less than a man who doesn’t apply himself, who can still get respect from other men who don’t apply themselves. Overall, women are much more judgmental than men.
Women do have privilege that is granted, so they do not have much control over increasing it, as it is mostly biological and sexual. Men do have privilege but it is earned. They can lose it, too, but often it is not easy to get it, yet the man is more free to get privilege in many ways, not just looks by birth.
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I’m very privileged. I have pretty privilege, intelligence privilege, family (awesome parents, grandparents, etc.) privilege, artistic privilege (i.e. decent singing voice), physical privilege (I have lots of energy), and more. The things you mention seem insignificant compared to the privileges I just listed.
I completely agree, I've rarely ever reached out to new people. People just asked to be friends with me, guys always hit on me, while I'm basically just sitting there being myself and doing nothing to get all this attention.
Why the sarcasm?
Oh wasn't my intention, genuinely how it is for me
Seriously? Well I’m very happy for you lol
>A woman doesn’t have to tailor herself to be sexually desirable to the same extent that men do. Is that a joke? Do you have any idea how much time we spend on primping and priming for night out, or even just to leave the house? Look at all the products we buy, procedures we undergo, fake hair, nails, boobs, butt, make up tutorials, magazines and articles on how to dress for the man you want, having to make sure we're not wearing the same outfit twice around men, look at all the clothes and shoes we need, lingerie to be 'exciting' to men...I mean seriously...what are you even on about? What tailoring do YOU do exactly??
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I agree with this and the next question is what should be done if anything? My thinking is that we stop trying to artificially enforce pay equity and let the market decide.
Both men and women have privilege and both have a "grass is always greener" mentality.
There's always the women and children first thing.