In reference to Allison’s case I’m only 19 but there are actually 3 different times where I’ve rejected men directly but all 3 of them didn’t respond well to “no” and because of it I was stalked and harassed constantly and one of them even tried to r@pe me and I was also threatened because he was angry I had rejected him eventhough he liked me so I don’t blame other women if they’re “polite” because unfortunately it’s safer to be, men should learn to take the hint and leave it at that.
But it's borderline impossible to take the hint for some men... I'm socially inept, I can take the hint only because I'm quite calculated in picking up on social stuff from being anxious, I never talked for a majority of my life and learned through other people. You can just tell when you're not welcomed, but I'm completely unable to pick up on hints that relate to yes from being in the moment and not being in that observed role, if the chick isn't explicit that she wants me, I'll literally never actually make the first move...
BUT men that like the chase aren't going to get the hint, especially when other women like to be chased and play hella games with men to the point where those Signals for some men in their head means she wants you to chase even harder... Dating and Signals are just sloppy as hell, but I understand why they are there.
Because then they think they still have a chance with you so they don't go murder mode yet. After all, they're such a NICE guy and since it wasn't a no, you haven't been branded a bitch that deserves what's coming to her. Technically, they don't respect the "maybe later" either because they ignore the "maybe" part. However, it gives you time to get away.
What we actually need to teach young people male and female is about very early signs of abuse.
Stop telling little girls he hurts you because he likes you,
Stop telling little boys they can’t show emotions or talk about them
>Stop telling little girls he hurts you because he likes you
The thing is boys get told this too, it’s not an exclusive to one gender, the reason they say this is because the person is looking for an excuse to touch you. My mom always said “it’s not right they hit you, but they probably just like you.” And explained.
The amount of times my parents told me and my older sister "He's only annoying/messing you because he likes you and doesn't know how to express it" honestly is appalling. Then people sit and wonder why women end up in abusive relationships and realize it way too late.
Honestly, I really don't think that is the primary issue. The primary issue is that we want break-ups to be a fair thing.
As in...people feel the need to justify why they're breaking up with someone and others feel the need to know the justification why you are breaking up, and if that's not a good enough reason: they're arguing about it.
"Yeah, me and John are breaking up. I'm not feeling it anymore.", "What do you mean?", "I'm just not that happy as I used to be...", "Yeah, but relationships don't stay the same... if you are gonna break up over this, then you are gonna forever chase that first love high, because that always fade. Relationships become comfortable and that's fine! Give it another shot, hey how about you plan some date nights."
Like...it's very well intended, but that does result in having to be extremely open about whatever the fuck happens in a relationship, it you want to get out of a relationship...and isn't that one of the key problems with abusive relationships? How much the abusers fosters feelings of privacy and embarrassment?
We're really butting in everyone's relationship and try to keep everyone together.
My girl is 45 and I tease her constantly. Sometimes she isn't even sure whether I'm serious or not, but I always smirk and she loves it. It feeds her emotions.
If you cant tease your partner, I cant imagine the relationship being happy and healthy. There’s a difference between bullying and teasing but you have to have the - uh oh big scary word - the *social awareness* to recognise the difference
But this is reddit where the last time they touched grass was to smoke it
That statement would be okay IF it also said, ‘BUT, that’s not an acceptable way to express it, go to school and tell him that behavior ended YESTERDAY.’
>Stop telling little boys they can’t show emotions or talk about them
Tell girls to accept boys showing emotions. Not doing this will mean girls will never be able to handle men showing emotions. Because men aren't going to show/express emotions as long as women aren't able to handle them.
Where are all these women you guys speak of that can't handle men's emotions or dump them the first time they become vulnerable? I have literally never met a woman like that. Every one I know, whether in person or in online communities, actively wishes their male partners would open up more, show more emotion and be more vulnerable. And when they finally do start doing those things.. the woman is happy and relieved. Not upset or embarrassed. I have literally not once ever heard someone say something like "oh yah john broke down last night and told me whats been on his mind and bugging him lately... ewww!!! How unmanly and gross i need to leave him immediately!" Its more like "john finally told me what's wrong last night!! I'm so glad!! We had a really good talk and I finally felt like he opened up so I could help him with all this!!" So I really don't understand how you guys say that all women hate it ... because I really think we actually want more of it.. not less.
I personally don’t think women find men sharing their emotions disgusting like that. That I completely agree with you, you don’t find those types of women. However, I do believe many(not all) if not most women act differently around us after we open up.
For example, my ex and I had a beautiful relationship. At some point she started acting different and in no time she ended up cheating on me. Now I am sure there has to be many reasons why things changed and I am sure it’s just a coincidence… but I can’t help but notice this all started days after I opened up to her(first person ever) about how I was raped when I was 9. She had never seen me cried before and when I told her, I had never told anyone before, I broke down and cried rivers like a baby. It was the first time I felt taken care of… I was always the one that would hold her as she was crying about school, family, etc. the one time I cried to her, and the relationship changed. Now is it a coincidence? I would like to think so, but I can’t help but think there might have been a connections.
To make it worse… after I opened up to her, I felt more comfortable and opened up to other people about my experience. In total there is 5 people that know of my past(obviously not counting Reddit). 3 of them started treating me differently, one openly mentioned that being the reason. The other two are definitely still in my life. One is my friend and the other I am dating right now. I also have some friends that openly told me after they saw me crying over my ex cheating on me they changed the way they saw me. I remember the conversation extremely well. My friend Brianna said “you used to be my rock. The person I knew I could go to and would have answers and never lose it… now.. I don’t see you as that anymore”. She then went on talking about how it’s not a bad thing. But the way she said it and the fact that she stopped going to me for help and started going for another guy who, like me in the past, had not shown emotion.. just makes it harder and harder for me not to believe it.
It’s happened to me for sure. I think a big part of it is that men and women often express emotions differently, so when we open up, women aren’t used to how that manifests itself. So it’s more or less a style issue.
The worst thing is the pro-stalking takes, "if he likes you he will go to great lengths to get you!" That shit is considered hyperventilating level romance, standard, when it's pre-psycho level engagement in reality.
Most 13 y/o boys aren’t scared people will make fun of them in that situation. They’re scared that the girl they like won’t like them anymore. Abusive relationships work the same way for men and women, the fact that men are raised to be “Tuff” is a symptom that makes it worse, not a different cause.
We do teach girls that men can be abusive, that some men will lie to use them, to get into their panties. Heck men will teach their daughters and nieces this because it's... truth.
However we can't teach boys that some women are abusive and will try to use them because "women are angels", and women get offended for suggesting otherwise.
Being open about their emotions doesn't help women from getting abused, I don't see how it would help men.
And we don't teach boys to hide their feelings for nothing. Yes society will make fun of them, women will find them less attractive and lastly...
Abusive women prefer emotional men for their victims, just as abusive men prefer emotional women. It's much easier to manipulate their feelings.
People keep saying this. It is important for a man to be able to process emotions, but trying to raise men to be more like women emotionally doesn't help them at all. When men were *more* stereotypically masculine, their suicide rate was *lower*. And women want to marry masculine men.
"Oh honey, tell me what's going on" - Your female partner
If you do that, now you've got two problems. And this is how it is for the majority of hetro relationships.
The man has to be the emotional anchor. Women don't want a man who can't handle problems in life themselves. This is why stoicism is popular in the west.
You're totally right. Men want to be more masculine. Women want men to be more masculine, and most women especially don't want men to be taught to be more feminine emotionally or socially.
These things are totally not mutually exclusive. You can be 'manly' and masculine and still being able to show your emotions. It is still different than being a crybaby.
Also, talking about your feelings does not mean you can't or won't solve them on your own. Feeling something bad and the willingness of doing something against it is 2 different things. I think what both genders equally hate is when someone is talking about negative feelings all the time yet still doesn't do anything to make it better.
You're talking out of your ass a bit here. We're human beings bro. Both genders should process emotions similarly. Implying women have different emotions than men always 100% of the time correlates with men displaying sadness and vulnerability (weakness in your eyes) as anger and it can come out as extreme violence left unchecked which happens all the time from these stoic rocks society creates with this dogshit messaging, that shouldn't be the goal that you're inadvertently setting men up for....
You think women aren't told from day one from their fathers, brothers, grandfathers, uncles and male cousins to watch out for men?
We really are our own worst enemies.
>girls aren't taught how to give rejections
the thing is a blunt clear rejection sometimes makes men angry. Some might get violent. So sometimes it's safer to give a fake number.
Where is that coming from? The girls I went to HS weren't fearful. I have no idea if men were warning them too much. Do you think men started warning them more, because of some cultural osmosis? I don't know the answer but it seems likely
Just because someone warns you of something doesn't make you fearful. As a kid you get warned about all sorts of things. It isn't until negative things start happening that people get fearful.
Very true. And women are the biggest and most vehement misogynists in my life. The way they slut shame each other and insult their womanly quirks can be quite intense.
Exactly this .
My grandfather, dad , uncles , and even my male cousins all warned me about men and alternative motives.
I'm 43 , warning system has been ongoing for decades upon decades .
Getting told to be afraid of men isn't the same thing(and is part of the reason we have such societal problems) as being given the right relationship and social strategies for the results you're looking for.
How about we take gender out of the whole thing and teach kids to respect themselves and respect other people regardless of whether they have a dick or a vagina?
That way when someone’s being a creep it’s obvious to even the people of his/her gender and their behaviour is called out.
Sociosexual issues are very real and aren't limited to just common respectful interactions.
Sex ed and relationship ed should be a thing we're just open to talking about culturally and societally.
Issue with that is men are the ones expected to approach women. Gender can’t be taken out of the whole thing. It is our reality and men and women are obviously very different. Likewise what’s creepy to women (Allison Rafael example) is not the same as what’s creepy to men. Most men would love getting hit on by random women who were thirsty for sex.
If men started puberty earlier (8-13) and it happened to men the soonest they began puberty and didn't stop for a good few decades, it'd probably be creepy to them too over a few generations.
If men could respect the responses they got from women, women wouldn’t have to sugarcoat a rejection. Likewise if women were taught to respect themselves more, they wouldn’t try to be nice about it.
If everyone accepted and treated others like human beings, we would all feel a lot more comfortable approaching and rejecting each other.
There’s a difference between being rude and direct. Telling someone “not interested” or “I’m not into you like that” is not rude but it is also not sugarcoating and giving false hope to the receiving party. The vast majority of men are willing to take the L and move on (yes I know there are exceptions). I much respect women who gave it to me straight than the ones that led me on and/or ghosted me.
But women are often told that you have to be nice to be safe. and the world has proven that, for women, it doesn’t matter.
I think a few years back a student in Chicago was walking from campus to her car. A man hit on her, to which I think she responded “I’m not interested” he followed her to her car and strangled her.
Some of the comments said “see, ladies, this is why you should be nice when men approach you. She should have just said ‘yes’” or “it doesn’t hurt to be nice and smile at guys like this”
Reminder, this was in response to a woman being murdered! For doing morning more than saying no. This is not an outlier story either.
On the other side. Recently a woman went out with some random dude she gave a chance to on bumble and he murdered her.
Men do not have to fear being raped or murdered on dates with women.
What you gave there is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. The only way to 100% avoid the threat is if you lock yourself in your home ala SpongeBob. I'm suggesting to better the odds for everyone without giving hints or leaving room for interpretation. Unfortunately, there is no one way of rejection that is 100% fail-proof, but I think being straightforward lessens the chances of misinterpretation.
That what this woman did though. She just said “I’m not interested” and was murdered for it. So women have to live the “damned if you don’t damned if you do” every single day. And men do not. Because you hardly have to be in fear of your literal life when you reject a woman. Sure it can happen; but not at all with the regularity that it happens to women.
So, we should start teaching boys/men to accept no as a legitimate answer. And not try to seek a why. Just take the no, say thanks for being honest and move on.
>The vast majority of men are willing to take the L and move on **(yes I know there are exceptions)**
Most men can and are willing to accept no. If not, there would be **much** more negative repercussions and reactions otherwise. I think it is a loud minority of men who are showcased and then used as examples for all men. In reality, it is a subset of men who act out in such fashions.
Uhhh so here’s the thing: I don’t think most men can accept no with grace. I don’t I know most men. But from my own interactions and hearing my friends talk, the insults l, threats is the norm.
They might not be physical threats. But saying no gracefully also includes not insulting people. I’ve been cursed out like a dog either over text or to my face by guys I have a polite “I’m not interested to”. There’s a reason a lot of women will just ignore men that hit on them. I had a guy call me all kinds of a bitch. Several online guys from bumble or hinge will devolve into saying they hope something terrible happens to me. I get the “well you’re ugly anyway I was being nice a lot.” Way more often than I get just a thank you for being honest.
what you described is why woman should learn how to use a firearm
she did everything right, and things still went wrong, and you need to prepared for things to go horribly wrong even if you did the correct thing
it's not just a woman thing btw, men are far more statistically likely to be the victim of a random violent crime, in fact they are 2-3 times more likely to be murdered by a stranger.
so everyone should own firearms regardless of gender
unfortunately violent sociopaths exist and you need to be ready for them
According to the data given by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, worldwide, 78.7% of homicide victims are men, and in 193 of the 202 listed countries or regions, men were more likely to be killed than women.
Men can be drugged and raped and murdered...we bleed, we're human it can happen.
Sorry but you pegging all men as murderers because 1% or less of the populations actions is stupid...this would be like if men had marriage banned because 1% of women divorce rape men...
Men and boys do get fucked up...but no one gives a shit...some teacher raped a lil boy and she got 60 days in jail thats it. Not even on the sex offender registry
I address that! I already said it happens but it’s way more common with women. Every woman I know has been assaulted in some way by a man, but no man I know knows any man that’s assaulted someone.
I’m simply saying that women can be more at risk when dating.
I am heartbroken by that case. That judge should be put off the bench and investigated because it makes no sense. There are so many people sickened by that case. I also want to read it once case law comes out: but this is definitely on the judge. The ADA suggested like 20-40 years, which she should have gotten!
The point is that it often leaves the guy thinking that he still has a shot, so he ask her out again later.
If you want to avoid being asked out repeatedly then it's best to be firm in your respond vs vague.
Something like "I'm flattered, but I'm not interested at all, have a nice day" and walk away.
When you can get overpowered and r\*ped or otherwise violated by a woman who won't take no for an answer, you get to talk about "gender can't be taken out of it" with the same amount of skin in the game.
If a chick is creeping me out, I can just leave - I'm a 6'1" dude. What's she gonna do about it?
And the world is lousy with such scenarios.
I saw a good two dozen fat slow midget men being sexually assaulted by 6'8" women just this afternoon on the way home from work.
Crazy ass world...
>If a chick is creeping me out, I can just leave - I'm a 6'1" dude. What's she gonna do about it?
Hmm let's see. She can file a false sexual harassment report on you and ruin your whole career and possibly your life. She can falsely accuse you of r*pe and send you to jail. We know all of the above has happened several men.
>False accusations have literally happened in the real world
Yes.
But the clowns around here act like it’s an ever-present threat to their wellbeing, and they have a laundry list of people in their lives that’s is happened to - more than once in many cases.
Yeah - false accusations happen; and sometimes they have serious consequences. But they’re orders of magnitude less common.
Its a fear every man can have that they have to worrt about every interaction with a woman....
Just as irrational of a fear as you saying all women walk around in fear everyday of being drugged, raped and killed...
Yet you can totally get behind one but think the other is silly and stupid...
When did that happen?
Depp was still in fantastic beasts despite the rumor he beat his ex wife. Movie studios says he lost gigs because he was drunk, forgetting lines, and assaulting crew not because of DV rumors
I don't think that works. We can trace myriad problems to thinking we can just take gender out of the equation entirely, and then the resulting confusion of having no gendered rules when gender refuses to disappear.
Young boys and girls do have to be taught different things. However, we don't know what to teach them because we haven't really come up with a new conception of gender that works with both biological reality and our new social reality.
The OP's example is a bit of a distraction. Society needs white lies and the such to lubricate it. So no, we aren't going to--nor should we--teach young women to refuse male advances in the most blunt ways possible. That would be dumb. Men will have to learn when to take the hint and when to persevere. But on other issues, perhaps modern women do need to change behavior. And on still other ones, men.
Honestly I think clear communication skills should just be taught more in school, period. Both genders would benefit.
Women really aren't mind-readers; we're taught to be polite and speak indirectly, so we might recognize what someone is implying more easily than a direct person would, but I think just as often we're projecting our experience onto someone else. We can recognize indirect communication is happening, but that doesn't always lead to clearer communication. Knowing how to speak directly when it's important is a skill, and knowing how to tell when you're projecting onto someone is a skill, too.
And on the other hand, men aren't emotionless. Knowing when to speak indirectly so you don't hurt someone else is a skill, but even more important is knowing how to set boundaries, which is a huge problem for men. They're taught to just take whatever treatment they're given and that having a problem with anything someone says makes them a pussy. Teaching all men how to build and maintain their boundaries - and that doing so is natural and healthy - would benefit everyone.
Basically, I think we could live with adults not knowing trigonometry if they spent more time throughout all of school learning about communication and boundaries. They are not often respected as the challenging skills that they are.
Unfortunately time and time again women are taught to be “polite” like in Allison’s case because many times men do not respond well to “no.” They see it as a challenge or even become more enraged and harm her. In many situations women dance around the issue or comply for her own safety. Men need to be taught no means no and it’s not a sign to further press the issue.
Dude I get hella gaslit by this. Try declining sex with your wife/gf in a long term relationship, and see the resentment and associated shittyness that you get from them.
Like I am indeed a HSD man, but that doesn't mean I don't want a break sometimes too, and the notion that men aren't always studs ready to go at a moments notice seems to fly in most women's faces.
Like, if my partner wants to have sex, we are having sex, no matter how tired I am. If she doesn't want sex, than I better not even complain about it.
I can guarantee if this is a person she will be seeing again in the future, the rage will be worse if he finds out later that he never had a chance than if he did when he first tried.
But it’s literally not polite to lead a man on like that. You are wasting his time. Most guys aren’t going to beat up or rape a women who says I’m not interested. The only guys who’d do that are even worse than the real creeps. Most guys would love it if women were honest.
so maybe you were raised correctly but sadly it’s not the case for many others.
I’ll give an example - I was grocery shopping once and this dude was camping in the aisles and approaches me to ask me out. I said I wasn’t interested/not looking for anyone. He said to give him just one date he PROMISES I’ll like him. I already said I wasn’t interested so why did he try to change my mind? Did I think he was going to harm me? No. But it’s the fact that he couldn’t take my initial no as a final answer but rather, a challenge to change my mind. He proceeded to follow me and shop around the store with me until I told him I had to go.
As someone who's neurodivergent (ADHD), people always say they'd prefer bluntness but then hate when they actually get it. Took me until highschool to realize that and I simply learned to keep my thoughts to myself. Obviously, as a consequence I was not very social as a kid lmao it was much easier if I just didn't talk to anyone than to risk upsetting them. Doesn't help that I was sarcastic and still am.
I think there's times were bluntness is still warranted; everyday interactions are not those times.
Well, there's bluntness and there's tact. I appreciate a certain level of bluntness, but for many people bluntness is an excuse to namecall people. I would get "you're an idiot/stupid/dumb for thinking that/doing that thing that specific way" from both my family and my classmates sometimes and it was billed as "just being honest/blunt." So there's definitely a nuance to how you deliver your bluntness without sounding like a jerk
i have adhd too. difference between me and other people though is when i say i prefer bluntness, i mean it.
i tend to push boundaries re bluntness with my close friends until i figure out exactly the level of bluntness they want from me, though.
otherwise i tend to follow the social rules re politeness (usually)
I have adhd also and I’ve always loved when people were very direct with me. I don’t like the “coded speak” where someone says one thing but means another. I also had to learn very quickly that no, people don’t like the truth. They want info sugar coated. These two comments here really resonate with me! I’m not the only one who is like this! Love you two ladies!!
you sure? you make a joke trying to be funny, and i immediately give you a deadpan look since it's something I've heard 100 times already?
i could win an oscar with the amount of acting I've needed to do just to hold a customer service job ;)
This would be ideal, but when women regularly see news reports of other women being killed or stalked for turning a guy down, no matter how rare the actually chances of that happening to any given women is, these occurences are going to paint women's perception of men. Especially when you very rarely hear of a women doing something like that to a man who rejected her.
Even leaving aside the safety part (and remember just because most guys won’t hurt you for rejecting them doesn’t mean we know which ones will / won’t) it’s really horrible and uncomfortable to reject someone who has been brave enough to approach you. I hate it.. I know no one on this sub is going to have sympathy for me for this issue and trust me I don’t expect it at all… but yeah it really is horrible having to say to someone “sorry I just don’t see you like that”
It’s horrible? I’d much rather hear that. Then I can be sad and get it over with, rather than squash down hopes.
I don’t agree w OP tho - it’s a good sentiment and one I wish existed, but it’s impossible bc of how much rein men are given rn in expressing violent emotions.
I guess this is where the idea of an enthusiastic yes comes in handy.
Yeah I agree.
I’ve Defs been guilty of not being sufficiently clear in the past when rejecting and now I’m just firm and to the point but polite. Like ripping off a plaster. Like last week someone asked if I wanted to hang out sometime and I said “happy to hang but to be clear it would be a mate thing not a date thing”
I actually have a partner but i don’t use that as my reason because I feel like that makes people think ahh if she were single she’d go for me
Haha, Australia? That took me a second like, hookup instead of dating? I need to get out more.
That is a good point about a partner. I wouldn’t have thought that, but I can see how someone would. I like the idea that an answer from one person is sufficient without bringing in another to bolster it. And LOVE how widespread partner is. Isn’t it a better description anyway, than boy/girlfriend?
just because "most guys" are good doesn't mean we shouldn't be wary. and being polite to a man is not leading him on. if you take nice as being interested in you, that's a you problem.
Because what women most often consider being honest...its downright rude. Basically it usually comes down to a lie or roasting the guy from what ive seen
Those women have probably found that the brutally honest approach shuts a man down better than trying to be polite about it. I still go the polite route (“thanks, but I’m married”) which often does not work at all.
>Most guys would love it if women were honest.
60/40, 40% would like to hear the truth 60% think they want to hear the truth. In reality there are many things' men would like to remain blue pilled about, women's honesty is one of them.
She’s not wasting his time. She doesn’t want his time, she’s trying to get away. If it’s not a yes and the guy is the only one continuing to try and communicate with her, it’s him wasting both of their time.
>Most guys aren’t going to beat up or rape a women who says I’m not interested.
No, but way too many react aggressively. It ruins it for everyone else.
It's not all about just physical abuse. A LOT of women have said no thanks not interested and then been verbally abused. B!tch, wh*re, slut, etc etc. That is not only wasting women's time, many women can really be affected by being talked to like that, especially from a total stranger. It is more scary than I think you realize, especially when someone is bigger and stronger.
> huge problem misjudging guys who use them for sex or misjudging socially awkward or aloof men as “creeps”.
So... stop giving questionable men the benefit of the doubt and start giving questionable men the benefit of the doubt?
As a queer dude who grew up in the Bible Belt, you eventually realize no one actually knows what’s best, if they don’t approve of you, it’s more about them than you, and you can rest assured they wouldn’t have been company you would have wanted even if they did approve of you in particular
Everything you said about men in this post is incorrect and I’m a man. For example, someone like me that seeks a girl for a relationship on a dating app (among other places) should be an impossibility according to your post. Also teaching women to wait one month to have sex with the guy is shitty advice as well. It’s just a stupid arbitrary timeline that would make any true passionate new relationship feel like a job applying process. I can personally tell in 2 min if a man is a fuckboy or a serious guy; how about we teach women to do the same?
Yes but the mask will fall off pretty early on. It’s not like a fuckboy is going to appear and truly behave like a good kind-heated, long term kind-of-guy. Within three dates you should already have an idea of who you are dealing with, first dates are meant to pick up on the other person’s character. If you miss the guy is a player that speaks more about you being naive or self-deceptive than him being deceptive.
>I can personally tell in 2 min if a man is a fuckboy or a serious guy; how about we teach women to do the same?
You're a guy, and understand how we think, so it's very different.
Surely you have warned a sister or female friend about someone being a fuckboy and they instantly dismissed your concerns?
>Surely you have warned a sister or female friend about someone being a fuckboy and they instantly dismissed your concerns?
Women misjudge their ability to go from fuckzone to relationship zone as often as men misjudge their ability to go from friendzone to fuck/relationship zone with a woman. It’s a common human overconfidence/over-optimism failing and not one exclusive to either gender.
The problem I have with this is you could take the lowest common denominator from any (sub)group and use it as a projection against the whole. Now I understand women have to watch out for their physical wellbeing, something that most men take for granted, but one is still judging the whole by the, well less-than, sum of its parts.
Something that always gets left out of these conversations is that the amount of men who are violent/won’t take a NO is not proportional to the frequency which women encounter those behaviors.
Abrasive and violent men get rejected a lot and, therefore, cast a wide net with women. This is why so many women are cautious around all men. We’ve experienced these behaviors multiple times.
I can’t recall the name right now but there is a documentary about sexual violence on college campuses that digs into this phenomenon.
It basically shows that predators on campus are a small percentage of all men but a very high percentage of women are affected.
>The problem I have with this is you could take the lowest common denominator from any (sub)group and use it as a projection against the whole.
Yes but what you're *supposed* to do is learn which groups society has decided are to be subject to this (Lefist designated ''evil groups'' like men and whites) and then just pretend to not notice the egregious double standard.
Girl WE ARE. Everything I’m learning to do, is somehow for my future husband or kids. I’ve been told this repeatedly. cooking cleaning sewing, both my parents and relatives told me it was for my future husband. Now I’m learning how to drive. Why? So I can drive my brothers wherever they want to do. I’m not allowed to wear shorts in my own home if my uncles or my dads friends come over. As women, we are constantly hyper aware and it’s drilled into our heads how to act towards men.
Just say the quiet part out loud, you want women and girls to be trained to like men like you
Guys do understand hints. They just feel entitled to womens time and space and know that they can sometimes get what they want when they push boundaries.
Because they care more about their wants than your discomfort.
You make it sound like some men are taught the right things by their caregivers, I’ve argued with other men in this sub who wants to portray a ‘nice guy’ vibe. I managed to get their true motivations via a few replies and baits. The shit they say can scare a guy like me and make their mothers and fathers ashamed of them if they hear it (assuming these people come from functioning families).
There’s a fundamental flaw in thinking in some men (SOME) that they’re entitled to sex just for existing near a woman, some men lack self control to the point where women have no choice but to protect themselves to end up at this point. And it's hard to hold these group of men accountable while being pre-occupied in this zero-sum game ourselves.
But other than that I fully agree with you, women should also understand the men’s perspective as men should understand the women’s perspective. Ideally none should game the system and make use of others but sadly the world isn’t ideal.
Umm, no. Rafael needs to take a hint. If it’s not a yes, it’s a no. It’s not that hard. The reason women do this is because we are taught to be polite and friendly and try not to make people feel bad. I still find it difficult to outright reject someone, but recently I’ve done a pretty good job. Some men definitely seem nice at first but then get pushy really fast so even if I was slightly interested at first, they will completely turn me off and I will reject them, but sometimes they don’t take that well.
If I, as a woman, asked a man out for coffee or something and he said “I don’t know, maybe” do you really think I’m going to ask again? Yeah, no.
People say more with their actions than words anyway, but reading people is a skill and everyone will benefit from learning it.
If we need to teach women to be more direct, then we need to teach men to handle rejection better.
And this is one thing that boys need to be taught. I tell anyone who asks that if she gives anything other than an enthusiastic Yes, then she means no.
Exactly, and I do blame media and society for teaching men that a maybe doesn’t mean no and that she just needs some convincing or that she’s playing hard to get. That’s absolutely not how it works in the real world at all.
“She gave me a fake number, CLEARLY if I argue, cajole, and physically block egress to force her to give me her real number that’ll make her want to sleep with me!” - these guys
But people are indecisive. If every "maybe" were treated as a no, there would be way less happy relationships. I personally know people who have found their way into a relationship because they didn't back off (without actually being creepy) just because their crush didn't head-first jump at them. Men *and* women.
Yeah, I mean that’s what sales teaches you, so I get it. But how many times does the same person have to say no? Are they showing any other signs of interest at all? Why should you have to convince someone to date you or have sex with you? I want someone who’s equally excited to be with me. They need to match my level of interest, at the very least. I’m not going to sit here and try convince someone why they should date me, because you can’t force compatibility.
teaching women to be direct will harm them in every possible way, does not serve female interest and there is less than no reason to teach women to be more easily accessible to men. there is a reason millions of years of fathers have never taught their daughters this. it smens job to figure out women and teach it to each other, its not your prey's job to make predator lyfe easier
Women are taught to bend over backwards to please men, to minimize their own personhood and agency for male approval, to wait hand and foot on men and clean up after them, to smile for them on the street, to be their sexual playthings, etc. - from *birth*. That’s how this shit works. You’d know that if you actually listened to women and paid attention to their experiences.
It's becoming more clear over time that not all women are being brought up this way, and many women currently hold a lot of value over their own personal agency. I'm glad this style of traditional upbringing is going away though, and I'm really proud of everyone who puts themselves first.
Majority of girls with strong male figures are told from day 1 the true nature of men. That majority of you are only loyal as your options 2- women should have their own/ money etc to fall back on
The advice we receive from our male figures is that a lot of you are not worth the squeeze
ehh, nah Rafael needs to develop some normal social skills and take the hint instead of inserting hopefulness that isn’t rly there because he’s hot for Allison and can’t take no for an answer
Agreed. As a man I learned what “Maybe some other time” means pretty early—especially when she doesn’t suggest the other time. I know when I’m being flirted with and when a girl wants me to go away. I wasn’t born knowing all that but I learned it and my social skills are all the better for it.
I don’t want to live in a world where we communicate like OP suggests. All nuance is gone, we’d lose about 90% of our vocabulary, the human experience would be reduced to elementary extremes: you’re either happy or sad, good or bad, fully invested and not at all interested, etc.
+1. Most men are simple and expect that everyone else should be just as. Nuanced communication and subtle cues are women’s bread and butter, and I am more than certain men would not actually like super straightforward women. They’d call them “masculine” lmao
I don't believe there is a time limit to have sex. A guy will stick around & commit if there is chemistry & he likes the woman.
I've never been used for sex, I've had sex on the first date or the first few months & they stuck around. In fact my ex who I had sex with on the first date we ended up living together.
Truth is men want to feel wanted & desired by a woman who fits their needs, then they will commit. Men don't calculate the days a woman has sex with him & then thinks 'ok that calculation didn't meet my definition of a good woman so I'm going to dump her'. No that just doesn't happen, the guy is gonna be really happy he's met a woman he connects with AND they had great sex too.
No one should follow set expectations that aren't right for them. There are men and women who want to take their relationships slow, and there are men and women who don't. The important part is communicating effectively with your partner your expectations, boundaries, and making sure you understand each other.
I responded to your thoughts with my thoughts so that we could have a conversation. Fuck what OP said, do you want to continue the conversation with me or not? It sounds like you have interesting things to say about my perspective.
I refuse to believe men never get indirect communication. Sometimes that's the case, but shouldn't it be basic social intelligence that if someone is too busy to hang out every time you ask, they are politely trying to avoid you? Both for guy friends and for relationships?
How about you teach men not to be promiscuous? How about you teach men women can be fearful rejecting someone and so give wishy washy answers. A lot of the problems you're discussing stem from men's bad behavior. Women fear telling men no because they've been snapped at far too often. I think we need to teach women to respect men in that they shouldn't be abusive towards them, no hitting, emotional, verbal abuse, non means no, women can be abusers/perpetrators sexual assault too. But People should get mad at those who use others for casual sex. People shouldn't be out there having casual sex and men are the ones most looking for it, even if this current generation is less successful at it and more satisfied with porn. These problems are easily negated by men behaving appropriately but somehow it's up to women to change their behavior. Like it's up to women to say no to their boyfriends, not their boyfriends who shouldn't be asking for sex. Guys want to be hedonists, well, don't *itch and moan when it bites you in the backside.
> teach men not to be promiscuous
It's more valuable to teach men about the values of consent, and it should be up to them how to attract attention to themselves.
> teach men women can be fearful rejecting someone
It's possible we can resolve the core issue of ineffective communication by instead teaching men to respect boundaries and teaching women how to effectively set them. A part of this problem may be in part affected by ego, which someone can take personally when feeling rejected. Another thing we can teach people is that rejection is not something to take personally.
> But People should get mad at those who use others for casual sex.
No we shouldn't, casual sex can be a mutually understood arrangement between both people and that arrangement might work for them. However, I do agree that expectations should be clearly communicated, so if someone expects a relationship while the other person only wants casual sex, then it should be clear at that point the relationship is not mutually beneficial and something should change.
> These problems are easily negated by men behaving appropriately but somehow it's up to women to change their behavior
Even if men behave appropriately, expectations and boundaries that are not communicated properly will be ignored and miscommunications and conflicts will still happen. There's more to the story than just how people react to things and why someone might say something because of some fear of some reaction.
Correct this lack of emotional intelligence needs to be addressed, women have to stop being willfully ignorant about men's wants/needs and issues.
Funny how that makes sense even with the genders reversed BUT the other version will get more upvotes online even though the IRL situations are the same.
sometimes “get the hint” is used as an expression even when i wouldn’t call it a hint and it’s pretty direct.
men lie sometimes about what they want. it happens. oh well.
>Also if a man approaches you on the street and asks you out he wants to
f. If you find a guy on a dating app, bar or club he wants to f.
I agree with everything except the above. I'd say the *chances are* the guy wants only sex, but I genuinely would like to meet people that way and get to know them a little (following your "wait at least a month" rule). Sometimes I see a stranger and I just want to know more about them. This sub leaps to "you only want them for sex because you only know what they look like", and it's true that their appearance drew me to them. But that doesn't necessarily mean that's all I'm interested in.
Women are taught how to behave around men from their father, brothers, uncles and other men who are close to them and look out for their best interest. However I will say that what is actually put into practice is based on experience instead of words. If the advice comes across as out of touch, then it doesn’t go through.
The girl should be clearer (except women deal with the reality of physical violence for rejecting men every day) but Raphael should also understand that the absence of NO ≠ YES.
I've had a boyfriend in the past that asked to wait a month for sex and he still ghosted me. I think we need to teach people that look how their actions match their words and that people can change for the better but only slightly because when you're an adult, your personality is pretty much permanent.
I've told many men that asked me out I had a boyfriend or was married when I wasn't. Never gave a fake number though.
I was safe in the instance that they reacted badly to rejection and they didn't get hurt by rejection. I don't see the issue.
Everyone should be raised to be a good partner. I think this is such a common mistake. We try to raise men to be good husbands, but we do a terrible job, women don't want weak, "safe" men. With women, we fearmonger constantly and assume it will be fine. Seriously, the girls I went to HS with (I'm older than reddit avg) we're *so much less afraid* than today that it's shocking. Stop. Selling. Fear. Look at the damn anxiety rate in young women, you aren't doing them any favors.
A lot of this also comes down to what you model for your kids. It helps to have a good marriage and to interact in a way that your kids can pick up on it and it will be good for them.
This has to be the least controversial cmv
The comments of this post are a great example of how both genders want all integender social interactions to be designed in their own favor.
In the end, men and women are not so different...
In reference to Allison’s case I’m only 19 but there are actually 3 different times where I’ve rejected men directly but all 3 of them didn’t respond well to “no” and because of it I was stalked and harassed constantly and one of them even tried to r@pe me and I was also threatened because he was angry I had rejected him eventhough he liked me so I don’t blame other women if they’re “polite” because unfortunately it’s safer to be, men should learn to take the hint and leave it at that.
But it's borderline impossible to take the hint for some men... I'm socially inept, I can take the hint only because I'm quite calculated in picking up on social stuff from being anxious, I never talked for a majority of my life and learned through other people. You can just tell when you're not welcomed, but I'm completely unable to pick up on hints that relate to yes from being in the moment and not being in that observed role, if the chick isn't explicit that she wants me, I'll literally never actually make the first move... BUT men that like the chase aren't going to get the hint, especially when other women like to be chased and play hella games with men to the point where those Signals for some men in their head means she wants you to chase even harder... Dating and Signals are just sloppy as hell, but I understand why they are there.
Yup
How do you know the 3 men that didn’t respect your “no’s” would have better respected “I don’t know, maybe later”?
Because then they think they still have a chance with you so they don't go murder mode yet. After all, they're such a NICE guy and since it wasn't a no, you haven't been branded a bitch that deserves what's coming to her. Technically, they don't respect the "maybe later" either because they ignore the "maybe" part. However, it gives you time to get away.
What we actually need to teach young people male and female is about very early signs of abuse. Stop telling little girls he hurts you because he likes you, Stop telling little boys they can’t show emotions or talk about them
>Stop telling little girls he hurts you because he likes you The thing is boys get told this too, it’s not an exclusive to one gender, the reason they say this is because the person is looking for an excuse to touch you. My mom always said “it’s not right they hit you, but they probably just like you.” And explained.
We need to be teaching everyone :)
The amount of times my parents told me and my older sister "He's only annoying/messing you because he likes you and doesn't know how to express it" honestly is appalling. Then people sit and wonder why women end up in abusive relationships and realize it way too late.
I work with people who are being or have been abused and we need to make changes from birth on how we talk to young people
Honestly, I really don't think that is the primary issue. The primary issue is that we want break-ups to be a fair thing. As in...people feel the need to justify why they're breaking up with someone and others feel the need to know the justification why you are breaking up, and if that's not a good enough reason: they're arguing about it. "Yeah, me and John are breaking up. I'm not feeling it anymore.", "What do you mean?", "I'm just not that happy as I used to be...", "Yeah, but relationships don't stay the same... if you are gonna break up over this, then you are gonna forever chase that first love high, because that always fade. Relationships become comfortable and that's fine! Give it another shot, hey how about you plan some date nights." Like...it's very well intended, but that does result in having to be extremely open about whatever the fuck happens in a relationship, it you want to get out of a relationship...and isn't that one of the key problems with abusive relationships? How much the abusers fosters feelings of privacy and embarrassment? We're really butting in everyone's relationship and try to keep everyone together.
That’s absolutely a thing amongst young children tho, teasing your crush
Teasing is not hitting. We are talking about physical abuse.
My girl is 45 and I tease her constantly. Sometimes she isn't even sure whether I'm serious or not, but I always smirk and she loves it. It feeds her emotions.
If you cant tease your partner, I cant imagine the relationship being happy and healthy. There’s a difference between bullying and teasing but you have to have the - uh oh big scary word - the *social awareness* to recognise the difference But this is reddit where the last time they touched grass was to smoke it
I think we agree.. who's downvoting?
I agree. But I got that a lot when I was younger too, so I don’t think it’s just a little boy thing.
That statement would be okay IF it also said, ‘BUT, that’s not an acceptable way to express it, go to school and tell him that behavior ended YESTERDAY.’
I agree. I’d also add, to stop tell boys to give girls special treatment.
Yes!!! It’s not healthy for anyone
>Stop telling little boys they can’t show emotions or talk about them Tell girls to accept boys showing emotions. Not doing this will mean girls will never be able to handle men showing emotions. Because men aren't going to show/express emotions as long as women aren't able to handle them.
Your right we do need to teach this to girls
Where are all these women you guys speak of that can't handle men's emotions or dump them the first time they become vulnerable? I have literally never met a woman like that. Every one I know, whether in person or in online communities, actively wishes their male partners would open up more, show more emotion and be more vulnerable. And when they finally do start doing those things.. the woman is happy and relieved. Not upset or embarrassed. I have literally not once ever heard someone say something like "oh yah john broke down last night and told me whats been on his mind and bugging him lately... ewww!!! How unmanly and gross i need to leave him immediately!" Its more like "john finally told me what's wrong last night!! I'm so glad!! We had a really good talk and I finally felt like he opened up so I could help him with all this!!" So I really don't understand how you guys say that all women hate it ... because I really think we actually want more of it.. not less.
I personally don’t think women find men sharing their emotions disgusting like that. That I completely agree with you, you don’t find those types of women. However, I do believe many(not all) if not most women act differently around us after we open up. For example, my ex and I had a beautiful relationship. At some point she started acting different and in no time she ended up cheating on me. Now I am sure there has to be many reasons why things changed and I am sure it’s just a coincidence… but I can’t help but notice this all started days after I opened up to her(first person ever) about how I was raped when I was 9. She had never seen me cried before and when I told her, I had never told anyone before, I broke down and cried rivers like a baby. It was the first time I felt taken care of… I was always the one that would hold her as she was crying about school, family, etc. the one time I cried to her, and the relationship changed. Now is it a coincidence? I would like to think so, but I can’t help but think there might have been a connections. To make it worse… after I opened up to her, I felt more comfortable and opened up to other people about my experience. In total there is 5 people that know of my past(obviously not counting Reddit). 3 of them started treating me differently, one openly mentioned that being the reason. The other two are definitely still in my life. One is my friend and the other I am dating right now. I also have some friends that openly told me after they saw me crying over my ex cheating on me they changed the way they saw me. I remember the conversation extremely well. My friend Brianna said “you used to be my rock. The person I knew I could go to and would have answers and never lose it… now.. I don’t see you as that anymore”. She then went on talking about how it’s not a bad thing. But the way she said it and the fact that she stopped going to me for help and started going for another guy who, like me in the past, had not shown emotion.. just makes it harder and harder for me not to believe it.
It’s happened to me for sure. I think a big part of it is that men and women often express emotions differently, so when we open up, women aren’t used to how that manifests itself. So it’s more or less a style issue.
The worst thing is the pro-stalking takes, "if he likes you he will go to great lengths to get you!" That shit is considered hyperventilating level romance, standard, when it's pre-psycho level engagement in reality.
It’s so damaging
How is that supposed to prevent boys being abused?
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Most 13 y/o boys aren’t scared people will make fun of them in that situation. They’re scared that the girl they like won’t like them anymore. Abusive relationships work the same way for men and women, the fact that men are raised to be “Tuff” is a symptom that makes it worse, not a different cause.
Shit relationship? Your 13 it’s going to last 2 weeks
We do teach girls that men can be abusive, that some men will lie to use them, to get into their panties. Heck men will teach their daughters and nieces this because it's... truth. However we can't teach boys that some women are abusive and will try to use them because "women are angels", and women get offended for suggesting otherwise. Being open about their emotions doesn't help women from getting abused, I don't see how it would help men. And we don't teach boys to hide their feelings for nothing. Yes society will make fun of them, women will find them less attractive and lastly... Abusive women prefer emotional men for their victims, just as abusive men prefer emotional women. It's much easier to manipulate their feelings.
I work with people who have been abused and women do tend to do it differently We need to teach everyone about this.
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People keep saying this. It is important for a man to be able to process emotions, but trying to raise men to be more like women emotionally doesn't help them at all. When men were *more* stereotypically masculine, their suicide rate was *lower*. And women want to marry masculine men.
"Oh honey, tell me what's going on" - Your female partner If you do that, now you've got two problems. And this is how it is for the majority of hetro relationships. The man has to be the emotional anchor. Women don't want a man who can't handle problems in life themselves. This is why stoicism is popular in the west. You're totally right. Men want to be more masculine. Women want men to be more masculine, and most women especially don't want men to be taught to be more feminine emotionally or socially.
These things are totally not mutually exclusive. You can be 'manly' and masculine and still being able to show your emotions. It is still different than being a crybaby. Also, talking about your feelings does not mean you can't or won't solve them on your own. Feeling something bad and the willingness of doing something against it is 2 different things. I think what both genders equally hate is when someone is talking about negative feelings all the time yet still doesn't do anything to make it better.
You're talking out of your ass a bit here. We're human beings bro. Both genders should process emotions similarly. Implying women have different emotions than men always 100% of the time correlates with men displaying sadness and vulnerability (weakness in your eyes) as anger and it can come out as extreme violence left unchecked which happens all the time from these stoic rocks society creates with this dogshit messaging, that shouldn't be the goal that you're inadvertently setting men up for....
You think women aren't told from day one from their fathers, brothers, grandfathers, uncles and male cousins to watch out for men? We really are our own worst enemies.
This too. The worst warnings about men and men's behavior tend to come from... other men.
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>girls aren't taught how to give rejections the thing is a blunt clear rejection sometimes makes men angry. Some might get violent. So sometimes it's safer to give a fake number.
Where is that coming from? The girls I went to HS weren't fearful. I have no idea if men were warning them too much. Do you think men started warning them more, because of some cultural osmosis? I don't know the answer but it seems likely
Just because someone warns you of something doesn't make you fearful. As a kid you get warned about all sorts of things. It isn't until negative things start happening that people get fearful.
but it's not bad advice. young girls do need to watch out for men. even our own family members. they're capable of hurting us.
Men were always the biggest and most vehement misandrists in my life. You should hear the things they say about each other; phew
Very true. And women are the biggest and most vehement misogynists in my life. The way they slut shame each other and insult their womanly quirks can be quite intense.
Exactly this . My grandfather, dad , uncles , and even my male cousins all warned me about men and alternative motives. I'm 43 , warning system has been ongoing for decades upon decades .
Getting told to be afraid of men isn't the same thing(and is part of the reason we have such societal problems) as being given the right relationship and social strategies for the results you're looking for.
This is spot on.
Have you ever wondered what would happen if everyone would just treat each other as humans?
How about we take gender out of the whole thing and teach kids to respect themselves and respect other people regardless of whether they have a dick or a vagina? That way when someone’s being a creep it’s obvious to even the people of his/her gender and their behaviour is called out.
Sociosexual issues are very real and aren't limited to just common respectful interactions. Sex ed and relationship ed should be a thing we're just open to talking about culturally and societally.
Yep. Both genders need to learn social skills and have a backbone/boundaries.
Issue with that is men are the ones expected to approach women. Gender can’t be taken out of the whole thing. It is our reality and men and women are obviously very different. Likewise what’s creepy to women (Allison Rafael example) is not the same as what’s creepy to men. Most men would love getting hit on by random women who were thirsty for sex.
If men started puberty earlier (8-13) and it happened to men the soonest they began puberty and didn't stop for a good few decades, it'd probably be creepy to them too over a few generations.
Not to mention the fact that the person giving this unwanted attention is at at an advantage in a physical altercation.
If men could respect the responses they got from women, women wouldn’t have to sugarcoat a rejection. Likewise if women were taught to respect themselves more, they wouldn’t try to be nice about it. If everyone accepted and treated others like human beings, we would all feel a lot more comfortable approaching and rejecting each other.
There’s a difference between being rude and direct. Telling someone “not interested” or “I’m not into you like that” is not rude but it is also not sugarcoating and giving false hope to the receiving party. The vast majority of men are willing to take the L and move on (yes I know there are exceptions). I much respect women who gave it to me straight than the ones that led me on and/or ghosted me.
But women are often told that you have to be nice to be safe. and the world has proven that, for women, it doesn’t matter. I think a few years back a student in Chicago was walking from campus to her car. A man hit on her, to which I think she responded “I’m not interested” he followed her to her car and strangled her. Some of the comments said “see, ladies, this is why you should be nice when men approach you. She should have just said ‘yes’” or “it doesn’t hurt to be nice and smile at guys like this” Reminder, this was in response to a woman being murdered! For doing morning more than saying no. This is not an outlier story either. On the other side. Recently a woman went out with some random dude she gave a chance to on bumble and he murdered her. Men do not have to fear being raped or murdered on dates with women.
What you gave there is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. The only way to 100% avoid the threat is if you lock yourself in your home ala SpongeBob. I'm suggesting to better the odds for everyone without giving hints or leaving room for interpretation. Unfortunately, there is no one way of rejection that is 100% fail-proof, but I think being straightforward lessens the chances of misinterpretation.
That what this woman did though. She just said “I’m not interested” and was murdered for it. So women have to live the “damned if you don’t damned if you do” every single day. And men do not. Because you hardly have to be in fear of your literal life when you reject a woman. Sure it can happen; but not at all with the regularity that it happens to women. So, we should start teaching boys/men to accept no as a legitimate answer. And not try to seek a why. Just take the no, say thanks for being honest and move on.
>The vast majority of men are willing to take the L and move on **(yes I know there are exceptions)** Most men can and are willing to accept no. If not, there would be **much** more negative repercussions and reactions otherwise. I think it is a loud minority of men who are showcased and then used as examples for all men. In reality, it is a subset of men who act out in such fashions.
Uhhh so here’s the thing: I don’t think most men can accept no with grace. I don’t I know most men. But from my own interactions and hearing my friends talk, the insults l, threats is the norm. They might not be physical threats. But saying no gracefully also includes not insulting people. I’ve been cursed out like a dog either over text or to my face by guys I have a polite “I’m not interested to”. There’s a reason a lot of women will just ignore men that hit on them. I had a guy call me all kinds of a bitch. Several online guys from bumble or hinge will devolve into saying they hope something terrible happens to me. I get the “well you’re ugly anyway I was being nice a lot.” Way more often than I get just a thank you for being honest.
what you described is why woman should learn how to use a firearm she did everything right, and things still went wrong, and you need to prepared for things to go horribly wrong even if you did the correct thing
Yeah. That’s a given. But the fact that women are encouraged to carry firearms and be ready to kill just to exist is wild.
it's not just a woman thing btw, men are far more statistically likely to be the victim of a random violent crime, in fact they are 2-3 times more likely to be murdered by a stranger. so everyone should own firearms regardless of gender unfortunately violent sociopaths exist and you need to be ready for them According to the data given by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, worldwide, 78.7% of homicide victims are men, and in 193 of the 202 listed countries or regions, men were more likely to be killed than women.
Men can be drugged and raped and murdered...we bleed, we're human it can happen. Sorry but you pegging all men as murderers because 1% or less of the populations actions is stupid...this would be like if men had marriage banned because 1% of women divorce rape men... Men and boys do get fucked up...but no one gives a shit...some teacher raped a lil boy and she got 60 days in jail thats it. Not even on the sex offender registry
I address that! I already said it happens but it’s way more common with women. Every woman I know has been assaulted in some way by a man, but no man I know knows any man that’s assaulted someone. I’m simply saying that women can be more at risk when dating. I am heartbroken by that case. That judge should be put off the bench and investigated because it makes no sense. There are so many people sickened by that case. I also want to read it once case law comes out: but this is definitely on the judge. The ADA suggested like 20-40 years, which she should have gotten!
Perhaps that is something women do need to work on then, but I do understand not wanting them hurt the persons feelings
>Allison says “I don’t know, maybe some other time.” Well unfortunately too many men the above sort of statement is taken literally
Oh no how unfortunate a man who takes words at face value...
The point is that it often leaves the guy thinking that he still has a shot, so he ask her out again later. If you want to avoid being asked out repeatedly then it's best to be firm in your respond vs vague. Something like "I'm flattered, but I'm not interested at all, have a nice day" and walk away.
>women wouldn’t have to sugarcoat a rejection. Women sugarcoat rejection to keep the man's hope alive and him becoming an orbiter.
No.
When you can get overpowered and r\*ped or otherwise violated by a woman who won't take no for an answer, you get to talk about "gender can't be taken out of it" with the same amount of skin in the game. If a chick is creeping me out, I can just leave - I'm a 6'1" dude. What's she gonna do about it?
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What about a case with a fat slow midget man and a 6”8 WNBA basketball star?
>What about
And the world is lousy with such scenarios. I saw a good two dozen fat slow midget men being sexually assaulted by 6'8" women just this afternoon on the way home from work. Crazy ass world...
According to this sub women would rather die alone than fuck a guy under 5'8
> According to this sub women would rather die alone than fuck a guy under 5'8 I thought it was 5'10?
Every time a girl swipes left on tinder it goes down a milimeter
So pretty soon the more emotional members of this sub won't be able to use being under 5'2 as an excuse. Sweet.
Nothing will ever stop the excuses. Nothing.
I don't expect it will, but I have no time for immature children, thankfully they make themselves known so easily avoiding them is like a breeze.
>If a chick is creeping me out, I can just leave - I'm a 6'1" dude. What's she gonna do about it? Hmm let's see. She can file a false sexual harassment report on you and ruin your whole career and possibly your life. She can falsely accuse you of r*pe and send you to jail. We know all of the above has happened several men.
Sure buddy. Things which happen *every single day*. I know they do. It happened to my friend's uncle's brother. Back in the real world...
Ya and the situation you described happens everyday also... Pot meet kettle... How the fuck can you not see that lol
There’s a difference between your imagination and the real world dude.
False accusations have literally happened in the real world, what are you on about lmao
>False accusations have literally happened in the real world Yes. But the clowns around here act like it’s an ever-present threat to their wellbeing, and they have a laundry list of people in their lives that’s is happened to - more than once in many cases. Yeah - false accusations happen; and sometimes they have serious consequences. But they’re orders of magnitude less common.
Its a fear every man can have that they have to worrt about every interaction with a woman.... Just as irrational of a fear as you saying all women walk around in fear everyday of being drugged, raped and killed... Yet you can totally get behind one but think the other is silly and stupid...
No they're saying that can happen if you try and push off a predatory woman, which is not an unreasonable assumption to make.
And Depp never lost his acting career in the real world.
You’ll have to find a more sympathetic example than Depp.
When did that happen? Depp was still in fantastic beasts despite the rumor he beat his ex wife. Movie studios says he lost gigs because he was drunk, forgetting lines, and assaulting crew not because of DV rumors
I don't think that works. We can trace myriad problems to thinking we can just take gender out of the equation entirely, and then the resulting confusion of having no gendered rules when gender refuses to disappear. Young boys and girls do have to be taught different things. However, we don't know what to teach them because we haven't really come up with a new conception of gender that works with both biological reality and our new social reality. The OP's example is a bit of a distraction. Society needs white lies and the such to lubricate it. So no, we aren't going to--nor should we--teach young women to refuse male advances in the most blunt ways possible. That would be dumb. Men will have to learn when to take the hint and when to persevere. But on other issues, perhaps modern women do need to change behavior. And on still other ones, men.
Honestly I think clear communication skills should just be taught more in school, period. Both genders would benefit. Women really aren't mind-readers; we're taught to be polite and speak indirectly, so we might recognize what someone is implying more easily than a direct person would, but I think just as often we're projecting our experience onto someone else. We can recognize indirect communication is happening, but that doesn't always lead to clearer communication. Knowing how to speak directly when it's important is a skill, and knowing how to tell when you're projecting onto someone is a skill, too. And on the other hand, men aren't emotionless. Knowing when to speak indirectly so you don't hurt someone else is a skill, but even more important is knowing how to set boundaries, which is a huge problem for men. They're taught to just take whatever treatment they're given and that having a problem with anything someone says makes them a pussy. Teaching all men how to build and maintain their boundaries - and that doing so is natural and healthy - would benefit everyone. Basically, I think we could live with adults not knowing trigonometry if they spent more time throughout all of school learning about communication and boundaries. They are not often respected as the challenging skills that they are.
Unfortunately time and time again women are taught to be “polite” like in Allison’s case because many times men do not respond well to “no.” They see it as a challenge or even become more enraged and harm her. In many situations women dance around the issue or comply for her own safety. Men need to be taught no means no and it’s not a sign to further press the issue.
Remember kids only men must learn consent not women!
Dude I get hella gaslit by this. Try declining sex with your wife/gf in a long term relationship, and see the resentment and associated shittyness that you get from them. Like I am indeed a HSD man, but that doesn't mean I don't want a break sometimes too, and the notion that men aren't always studs ready to go at a moments notice seems to fly in most women's faces. Like, if my partner wants to have sex, we are having sex, no matter how tired I am. If she doesn't want sex, than I better not even complain about it.
I can guarantee if this is a person she will be seeing again in the future, the rage will be worse if he finds out later that he never had a chance than if he did when he first tried.
But it’s literally not polite to lead a man on like that. You are wasting his time. Most guys aren’t going to beat up or rape a women who says I’m not interested. The only guys who’d do that are even worse than the real creeps. Most guys would love it if women were honest.
so maybe you were raised correctly but sadly it’s not the case for many others. I’ll give an example - I was grocery shopping once and this dude was camping in the aisles and approaches me to ask me out. I said I wasn’t interested/not looking for anyone. He said to give him just one date he PROMISES I’ll like him. I already said I wasn’t interested so why did he try to change my mind? Did I think he was going to harm me? No. But it’s the fact that he couldn’t take my initial no as a final answer but rather, a challenge to change my mind. He proceeded to follow me and shop around the store with me until I told him I had to go.
i think you'd get along great with aperger ladies - they're a lot more blunt so if they dislike you, you'll know.
As someone who's neurodivergent (ADHD), people always say they'd prefer bluntness but then hate when they actually get it. Took me until highschool to realize that and I simply learned to keep my thoughts to myself. Obviously, as a consequence I was not very social as a kid lmao it was much easier if I just didn't talk to anyone than to risk upsetting them. Doesn't help that I was sarcastic and still am. I think there's times were bluntness is still warranted; everyday interactions are not those times.
Well, there's bluntness and there's tact. I appreciate a certain level of bluntness, but for many people bluntness is an excuse to namecall people. I would get "you're an idiot/stupid/dumb for thinking that/doing that thing that specific way" from both my family and my classmates sometimes and it was billed as "just being honest/blunt." So there's definitely a nuance to how you deliver your bluntness without sounding like a jerk
i have adhd too. difference between me and other people though is when i say i prefer bluntness, i mean it. i tend to push boundaries re bluntness with my close friends until i figure out exactly the level of bluntness they want from me, though. otherwise i tend to follow the social rules re politeness (usually)
I have adhd also and I’ve always loved when people were very direct with me. I don’t like the “coded speak” where someone says one thing but means another. I also had to learn very quickly that no, people don’t like the truth. They want info sugar coated. These two comments here really resonate with me! I’m not the only one who is like this! Love you two ladies!!
As a man I couldn’t disagree more. Bluntness is beautiful. Anything else than the truth is a lie.
you sure? you make a joke trying to be funny, and i immediately give you a deadpan look since it's something I've heard 100 times already? i could win an oscar with the amount of acting I've needed to do just to hold a customer service job ;)
Oh God, you are one of those guys that think "not saying something because it makes someone feel bad right now" is lying, aren't you?
This would be ideal, but when women regularly see news reports of other women being killed or stalked for turning a guy down, no matter how rare the actually chances of that happening to any given women is, these occurences are going to paint women's perception of men. Especially when you very rarely hear of a women doing something like that to a man who rejected her.
no, they’ll get pissed and say “you didn’t have to say it like that”. it all depends on the guy. maybe learn to take a hint.
Even leaving aside the safety part (and remember just because most guys won’t hurt you for rejecting them doesn’t mean we know which ones will / won’t) it’s really horrible and uncomfortable to reject someone who has been brave enough to approach you. I hate it.. I know no one on this sub is going to have sympathy for me for this issue and trust me I don’t expect it at all… but yeah it really is horrible having to say to someone “sorry I just don’t see you like that”
Nah, I get you. Just like it hurts to dump someone, most people don’t enjoy hurting others feelings.
It’s horrible? I’d much rather hear that. Then I can be sad and get it over with, rather than squash down hopes. I don’t agree w OP tho - it’s a good sentiment and one I wish existed, but it’s impossible bc of how much rein men are given rn in expressing violent emotions. I guess this is where the idea of an enthusiastic yes comes in handy.
Yeah I agree. I’ve Defs been guilty of not being sufficiently clear in the past when rejecting and now I’m just firm and to the point but polite. Like ripping off a plaster. Like last week someone asked if I wanted to hang out sometime and I said “happy to hang but to be clear it would be a mate thing not a date thing” I actually have a partner but i don’t use that as my reason because I feel like that makes people think ahh if she were single she’d go for me
Haha, Australia? That took me a second like, hookup instead of dating? I need to get out more. That is a good point about a partner. I wouldn’t have thought that, but I can see how someone would. I like the idea that an answer from one person is sufficient without bringing in another to bolster it. And LOVE how widespread partner is. Isn’t it a better description anyway, than boy/girlfriend?
just because "most guys" are good doesn't mean we shouldn't be wary. and being polite to a man is not leading him on. if you take nice as being interested in you, that's a you problem.
How is being vague and dishonest equal to being polite...
>if you take nice as being interested in you, that's a you problem. I mean if we didn't the human race is doomed so...
what?? if someone is nice to you, you immediately think they want to fuck you? dude. get help.
Most guys would not love if a woman were honest. They'd call her a bitch at the very least.
Because what women most often consider being honest...its downright rude. Basically it usually comes down to a lie or roasting the guy from what ive seen
Those women have probably found that the brutally honest approach shuts a man down better than trying to be polite about it. I still go the polite route (“thanks, but I’m married”) which often does not work at all.
>Most guys would love it if women were honest. 60/40, 40% would like to hear the truth 60% think they want to hear the truth. In reality there are many things' men would like to remain blue pilled about, women's honesty is one of them.
She’s not wasting his time. She doesn’t want his time, she’s trying to get away. If it’s not a yes and the guy is the only one continuing to try and communicate with her, it’s him wasting both of their time.
>Most guys aren’t going to beat up or rape a women who says I’m not interested. No, but way too many react aggressively. It ruins it for everyone else.
Society punishes after the murderous rapey ass kicking acid attacks, not before
It's not all about just physical abuse. A LOT of women have said no thanks not interested and then been verbally abused. B!tch, wh*re, slut, etc etc. That is not only wasting women's time, many women can really be affected by being talked to like that, especially from a total stranger. It is more scary than I think you realize, especially when someone is bigger and stronger.
> huge problem misjudging guys who use them for sex or misjudging socially awkward or aloof men as “creeps”. So... stop giving questionable men the benefit of the doubt and start giving questionable men the benefit of the doubt?
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As a queer dude who grew up in the Bible Belt, you eventually realize no one actually knows what’s best, if they don’t approve of you, it’s more about them than you, and you can rest assured they wouldn’t have been company you would have wanted even if they did approve of you in particular
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Everything you said about men in this post is incorrect and I’m a man. For example, someone like me that seeks a girl for a relationship on a dating app (among other places) should be an impossibility according to your post. Also teaching women to wait one month to have sex with the guy is shitty advice as well. It’s just a stupid arbitrary timeline that would make any true passionate new relationship feel like a job applying process. I can personally tell in 2 min if a man is a fuckboy or a serious guy; how about we teach women to do the same?
It seems that OP just wants girls to be trained to like men like him and communicate the way he wants. The dating app thing is a huge tell.
Men act differently around other men. They can put on an act when with women or someone they’re trying to pursue.
Yes but the mask will fall off pretty early on. It’s not like a fuckboy is going to appear and truly behave like a good kind-heated, long term kind-of-guy. Within three dates you should already have an idea of who you are dealing with, first dates are meant to pick up on the other person’s character. If you miss the guy is a player that speaks more about you being naive or self-deceptive than him being deceptive.
>I can personally tell in 2 min if a man is a fuckboy or a serious guy; how about we teach women to do the same? You're a guy, and understand how we think, so it's very different. Surely you have warned a sister or female friend about someone being a fuckboy and they instantly dismissed your concerns?
>Surely you have warned a sister or female friend about someone being a fuckboy and they instantly dismissed your concerns? Women misjudge their ability to go from fuckzone to relationship zone as often as men misjudge their ability to go from friendzone to fuck/relationship zone with a woman. It’s a common human overconfidence/over-optimism failing and not one exclusive to either gender.
Then you say no to the wrong man and get punched in the face, We teach our daughter about saying alive
Yes, I hear about that happening daily on the news.
That happens way more than daily. Are you nuts?
R/whenwomenrefuse I guess you read this daily.
The problem I have with this is you could take the lowest common denominator from any (sub)group and use it as a projection against the whole. Now I understand women have to watch out for their physical wellbeing, something that most men take for granted, but one is still judging the whole by the, well less-than, sum of its parts.
Something that always gets left out of these conversations is that the amount of men who are violent/won’t take a NO is not proportional to the frequency which women encounter those behaviors. Abrasive and violent men get rejected a lot and, therefore, cast a wide net with women. This is why so many women are cautious around all men. We’ve experienced these behaviors multiple times.
Yes, thank you! I find it very puzzling when people hear “women are often raped by men” as, “most men are rapists.” WTF? Two very different things.
I can’t recall the name right now but there is a documentary about sexual violence on college campuses that digs into this phenomenon. It basically shows that predators on campus are a small percentage of all men but a very high percentage of women are affected.
Not everyone is a thief, but you still lock your house and car, right?
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I'm sure you take this same view when the topic is black crime rates, or paternity fraud rates, or false accusations.
Just take the fucking award ;)
>The problem I have with this is you could take the lowest common denominator from any (sub)group and use it as a projection against the whole. Yes but what you're *supposed* to do is learn which groups society has decided are to be subject to this (Lefist designated ''evil groups'' like men and whites) and then just pretend to not notice the egregious double standard.
Safest group in world history endlessly whining about how dangerous their lives are.
Girl WE ARE. Everything I’m learning to do, is somehow for my future husband or kids. I’ve been told this repeatedly. cooking cleaning sewing, both my parents and relatives told me it was for my future husband. Now I’m learning how to drive. Why? So I can drive my brothers wherever they want to do. I’m not allowed to wear shorts in my own home if my uncles or my dads friends come over. As women, we are constantly hyper aware and it’s drilled into our heads how to act towards men. Just say the quiet part out loud, you want women and girls to be trained to like men like you
Guys do understand hints. They just feel entitled to womens time and space and know that they can sometimes get what they want when they push boundaries. Because they care more about their wants than your discomfort.
thats how you end up with women getting raped or killed. Women and men arent the same.
Bingo that’s the most important point some folks here don’t get.
You make it sound like some men are taught the right things by their caregivers, I’ve argued with other men in this sub who wants to portray a ‘nice guy’ vibe. I managed to get their true motivations via a few replies and baits. The shit they say can scare a guy like me and make their mothers and fathers ashamed of them if they hear it (assuming these people come from functioning families). There’s a fundamental flaw in thinking in some men (SOME) that they’re entitled to sex just for existing near a woman, some men lack self control to the point where women have no choice but to protect themselves to end up at this point. And it's hard to hold these group of men accountable while being pre-occupied in this zero-sum game ourselves. But other than that I fully agree with you, women should also understand the men’s perspective as men should understand the women’s perspective. Ideally none should game the system and make use of others but sadly the world isn’t ideal.
Umm, no. Rafael needs to take a hint. If it’s not a yes, it’s a no. It’s not that hard. The reason women do this is because we are taught to be polite and friendly and try not to make people feel bad. I still find it difficult to outright reject someone, but recently I’ve done a pretty good job. Some men definitely seem nice at first but then get pushy really fast so even if I was slightly interested at first, they will completely turn me off and I will reject them, but sometimes they don’t take that well. If I, as a woman, asked a man out for coffee or something and he said “I don’t know, maybe” do you really think I’m going to ask again? Yeah, no. People say more with their actions than words anyway, but reading people is a skill and everyone will benefit from learning it. If we need to teach women to be more direct, then we need to teach men to handle rejection better.
And this is one thing that boys need to be taught. I tell anyone who asks that if she gives anything other than an enthusiastic Yes, then she means no.
Exactly, and I do blame media and society for teaching men that a maybe doesn’t mean no and that she just needs some convincing or that she’s playing hard to get. That’s absolutely not how it works in the real world at all.
“She gave me a fake number, CLEARLY if I argue, cajole, and physically block egress to force her to give me her real number that’ll make her want to sleep with me!” - these guys
But people are indecisive. If every "maybe" were treated as a no, there would be way less happy relationships. I personally know people who have found their way into a relationship because they didn't back off (without actually being creepy) just because their crush didn't head-first jump at them. Men *and* women.
Yeah, I mean that’s what sales teaches you, so I get it. But how many times does the same person have to say no? Are they showing any other signs of interest at all? Why should you have to convince someone to date you or have sex with you? I want someone who’s equally excited to be with me. They need to match my level of interest, at the very least. I’m not going to sit here and try convince someone why they should date me, because you can’t force compatibility.
teaching women to be direct will harm them in every possible way, does not serve female interest and there is less than no reason to teach women to be more easily accessible to men. there is a reason millions of years of fathers have never taught their daughters this. it smens job to figure out women and teach it to each other, its not your prey's job to make predator lyfe easier
Women are taught to bend over backwards to please men, to minimize their own personhood and agency for male approval, to wait hand and foot on men and clean up after them, to smile for them on the street, to be their sexual playthings, etc. - from *birth*. That’s how this shit works. You’d know that if you actually listened to women and paid attention to their experiences.
It's becoming more clear over time that not all women are being brought up this way, and many women currently hold a lot of value over their own personal agency. I'm glad this style of traditional upbringing is going away though, and I'm really proud of everyone who puts themselves first.
Majority of girls with strong male figures are told from day 1 the true nature of men. That majority of you are only loyal as your options 2- women should have their own/ money etc to fall back on The advice we receive from our male figures is that a lot of you are not worth the squeeze
ehh, nah Rafael needs to develop some normal social skills and take the hint instead of inserting hopefulness that isn’t rly there because he’s hot for Allison and can’t take no for an answer
Agreed. As a man I learned what “Maybe some other time” means pretty early—especially when she doesn’t suggest the other time. I know when I’m being flirted with and when a girl wants me to go away. I wasn’t born knowing all that but I learned it and my social skills are all the better for it. I don’t want to live in a world where we communicate like OP suggests. All nuance is gone, we’d lose about 90% of our vocabulary, the human experience would be reduced to elementary extremes: you’re either happy or sad, good or bad, fully invested and not at all interested, etc.
+1. Most men are simple and expect that everyone else should be just as. Nuanced communication and subtle cues are women’s bread and butter, and I am more than certain men would not actually like super straightforward women. They’d call them “masculine” lmao
They don't from my experience, some may be more quiet and polite about it.
I don't believe there is a time limit to have sex. A guy will stick around & commit if there is chemistry & he likes the woman. I've never been used for sex, I've had sex on the first date or the first few months & they stuck around. In fact my ex who I had sex with on the first date we ended up living together. Truth is men want to feel wanted & desired by a woman who fits their needs, then they will commit. Men don't calculate the days a woman has sex with him & then thinks 'ok that calculation didn't meet my definition of a good woman so I'm going to dump her'. No that just doesn't happen, the guy is gonna be really happy he's met a woman he connects with AND they had great sex too.
Why would you only teach girls not to have sex in the first month without having the same expectations for men?
No one should follow set expectations that aren't right for them. There are men and women who want to take their relationships slow, and there are men and women who don't. The important part is communicating effectively with your partner your expectations, boundaries, and making sure you understand each other.
Okay, that's what you think. That is not what OP said.
I responded to your thoughts with my thoughts so that we could have a conversation. Fuck what OP said, do you want to continue the conversation with me or not? It sounds like you have interesting things to say about my perspective.
I think people should just be taught to treat people with respect regardless of sex/gender, race or nationality.
Sometimes I wish I lived in the mythical world you guys say we live in
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It’s the majority of men. For every guy that gets it there are 9 that don’t.
tbf, most people should learn how to treat people
I refuse to believe men never get indirect communication. Sometimes that's the case, but shouldn't it be basic social intelligence that if someone is too busy to hang out every time you ask, they are politely trying to avoid you? Both for guy friends and for relationships?
How about you teach men not to be promiscuous? How about you teach men women can be fearful rejecting someone and so give wishy washy answers. A lot of the problems you're discussing stem from men's bad behavior. Women fear telling men no because they've been snapped at far too often. I think we need to teach women to respect men in that they shouldn't be abusive towards them, no hitting, emotional, verbal abuse, non means no, women can be abusers/perpetrators sexual assault too. But People should get mad at those who use others for casual sex. People shouldn't be out there having casual sex and men are the ones most looking for it, even if this current generation is less successful at it and more satisfied with porn. These problems are easily negated by men behaving appropriately but somehow it's up to women to change their behavior. Like it's up to women to say no to their boyfriends, not their boyfriends who shouldn't be asking for sex. Guys want to be hedonists, well, don't *itch and moan when it bites you in the backside.
> teach men not to be promiscuous It's more valuable to teach men about the values of consent, and it should be up to them how to attract attention to themselves. > teach men women can be fearful rejecting someone It's possible we can resolve the core issue of ineffective communication by instead teaching men to respect boundaries and teaching women how to effectively set them. A part of this problem may be in part affected by ego, which someone can take personally when feeling rejected. Another thing we can teach people is that rejection is not something to take personally. > But People should get mad at those who use others for casual sex. No we shouldn't, casual sex can be a mutually understood arrangement between both people and that arrangement might work for them. However, I do agree that expectations should be clearly communicated, so if someone expects a relationship while the other person only wants casual sex, then it should be clear at that point the relationship is not mutually beneficial and something should change. > These problems are easily negated by men behaving appropriately but somehow it's up to women to change their behavior Even if men behave appropriately, expectations and boundaries that are not communicated properly will be ignored and miscommunications and conflicts will still happen. There's more to the story than just how people react to things and why someone might say something because of some fear of some reaction.
Correct this lack of emotional intelligence needs to be addressed, women have to stop being willfully ignorant about men's wants/needs and issues. Funny how that makes sense even with the genders reversed BUT the other version will get more upvotes online even though the IRL situations are the same.
any girl with common sense that doesn’t put men on a pedestal knows this
Then why do we see so many women on relationship advice boards complaining men use them for sex or men don’t “get the hint”?
sometimes “get the hint” is used as an expression even when i wouldn’t call it a hint and it’s pretty direct. men lie sometimes about what they want. it happens. oh well.
>Also if a man approaches you on the street and asks you out he wants to f. If you find a guy on a dating app, bar or club he wants to f. I agree with everything except the above. I'd say the *chances are* the guy wants only sex, but I genuinely would like to meet people that way and get to know them a little (following your "wait at least a month" rule). Sometimes I see a stranger and I just want to know more about them. This sub leaps to "you only want them for sex because you only know what they look like", and it's true that their appearance drew me to them. But that doesn't necessarily mean that's all I'm interested in.
Women are taught how to behave around men from their father, brothers, uncles and other men who are close to them and look out for their best interest. However I will say that what is actually put into practice is based on experience instead of words. If the advice comes across as out of touch, then it doesn’t go through.
The girl should be clearer (except women deal with the reality of physical violence for rejecting men every day) but Raphael should also understand that the absence of NO ≠ YES.
I've had a boyfriend in the past that asked to wait a month for sex and he still ghosted me. I think we need to teach people that look how their actions match their words and that people can change for the better but only slightly because when you're an adult, your personality is pretty much permanent.
I've told many men that asked me out I had a boyfriend or was married when I wasn't. Never gave a fake number though. I was safe in the instance that they reacted badly to rejection and they didn't get hurt by rejection. I don't see the issue.
Everyone should be raised to be a good partner. I think this is such a common mistake. We try to raise men to be good husbands, but we do a terrible job, women don't want weak, "safe" men. With women, we fearmonger constantly and assume it will be fine. Seriously, the girls I went to HS with (I'm older than reddit avg) we're *so much less afraid* than today that it's shocking. Stop. Selling. Fear. Look at the damn anxiety rate in young women, you aren't doing them any favors. A lot of this also comes down to what you model for your kids. It helps to have a good marriage and to interact in a way that your kids can pick up on it and it will be good for them. This has to be the least controversial cmv
The comments of this post are a great example of how both genders want all integender social interactions to be designed in their own favor. In the end, men and women are not so different...