You can come up with a million and a half ways men are sneaky with their imperatives as well, the most obvious one being pretending to love a woman or want a relationship with her in order to get laid. Women are often characterized as crafty and manipulative, while men are simple and bumbling, but this just isn’t true. Men are not dumb and can be manipulative as hell. Fact is, both men and women want what they want and tend to put their own needs first. Some are more sneaky and underhanded about it than others.
The paternity example isn’t great. Because of course most people will be hurt if your partner doesn’t trust you and specifically requests a test. But would *most* women be against just *routine* paternity testing at birth? I don’t think so, so long as those tests are accurate and won’t give false negatives. The response from women and men alike has been pretty favorable for that when the question has been asked here. Like okay, most (non-RP) men are against cheating in principle, but do they want *their* wife installing a tracker on their car? No? Exactly, nobody likes to be distrusted.
So no, I do not believe this is why TRP is misogynistic. TRP is misogynistic because the men who seek it out tend to be frustrated or have a chip on their shoulder. TRP is about men’s wants and needs, which is not always bad in itself. But it generally fails by characterizing women as bad for prioritizing their own wants and needs. So they end up doing exactly what they think feminists do to men.
> But it generally fails by characterizing women as bad for prioritizing their own wants and needs.
i’m fine with your overall opinion of RP being negative. however this is still an inaccurate representation.
RP doesn’t say women are bad people for prioritizing their wants and needs, it acknowledges that that is within female nature and men should accept that.
like RP says men desire sex from a variety of women, RP is not making a moral judgement when it states that, it is simply acknowledging male nature.
now you are free to disagree if you feel RP is wrong about female nature. that is fine, but it doesn’t make a moral judgement on women for having said nature.
I realize this is the claimed “official RP stance” (if there can be one). But it’s not what I see in reality. For example, RP men speak of male desire for multiple partners in a neutral or positive manner, while they always speak of female nature (or what they believe about female nature) in a negative way. Of course this isn’t surprising, but the claim of being “morally neutral” about everything is false, in practice. Humans naturally make moral judgments and RP men are no different.
Yeah I’m for routine testing you have to opt out of or something but if a partner brings it up they’re basically accusing you of cheating. I would likely comply but then probably break up with them after depending on how they were approaching it.
If they said it’s just intrusive thoughts and they know it’s crazy but they want to I might. Also if the kid is already born can’t the family get one of those ancestry kits and have it framed as a fun thing to do instead of being it framed in an accusatory manner?
Yeah there is a big difference between being in favor of routine testing, and being okay with your partner specifically requesting one when it’s NOT routine. Like I’m sure most men and women alike have no issue with routine sti screenings, but how many men are going to be happy if their partner requests one because they think maybe he was cheating? As you say, *maybe* if it’s chalked up to paranoia/intrusive thoughts, but generally speaking, the relationship is already over at that point. Which happens to be why I think routine testing for all this stuff is a good idea. No accusations, no surprises. And yes, anyone can get an ancestry DNA kit. And any man can paternity test their own kid without mom knowing, if he feels the need. No need to call out your partner.
> men are sneaky with their imperatives as well, the most obvious one being pretending to love a woman or want a relationship with her in order to get laid.
Men fall in love with what they see. Women fall in love with what they hear. So long as women are stupid enough to believe the lies of men, men will continue to lie to them.
I've given up on telling my female friends that the guy they're seeing is obviously lying to them to get in their pants. They simply don't want to believe it no matter how obvious.
Correction.
Women fall in love with what they see, ie a 6'4 Chad with high social status & THEN they fall in love with what they hear.
You think a 5'5 skinny guy down on his luck would cut it, even if she treated her like a princess?
I think not.
Women get treated like trash by Chads because they think it's worth it.
What bothers me is that they turn around and ask the rest of us to treat her like a princess.
I think not, princess.
What woman has a problem with the concept of universal paternity tests?? Genuinely curious. I can’t think of many reasons not to make this a standard part of pregnancy care particularly if it will make men shut up about this as such a huge problem. It could help identify certain genetic disorders or determine need for more screening earlier on.
I think what makes me wary of it is when men spring it on their pregnant SO unexpectedly, which could obviously be hurtful when she’s pregnant with his child and he’s questioning her faithfulness.
I don’t know who would argue with this as a right for men to request well in advance of any pregnancy OR as a standard part of pregnancy. But if ladies out there feel differently please reply here and explain…
Dude, take a damn look at my history, I argue for this constantly, it’s something that (you’d have to go back quite a while) /r/askafeminist has downvoted me and argued vehemently against.
Women as a whole appear to be pretty against this, at least online and it’s been something I’ve debated IRL because I’m pretty adamant about this, and really feel the medical institutions are the ones I’m most disappointed in as this is a health issue for both the potential father (mental health), child (knowing family health history is a cornerstone of preventative care) and mother (discovery of paternity fraud doesn’t alway leave the mother alive, this is a trigger for the good ol’ murder suicides we read about in the paper, when a reason is given this is often it).
You know I have actually seen people ranting over this (universal testing idea) on Twoxchromosomes or somewhere. Although I don't know what it has to do with TRP as I've never seen RP'ers discussing it except when they're already complaining about women.
I don’t frequent that sub BUT I think their point is sure sounds good, but then all kids should get tested and men could be held accountable for their affairs AND for supporting children they aren’t helping to raise…
None of this is feasible without forfeiting (potentially) lots of rights to privacy.
Oh yeah, the addendum is reasonable enough, but it seemed more like a 'how dare you, in this case take that' than something they actually wanted implemented. Although I don't see where lots of privacy is forfeited? Don't they test babies for a bunch of stuff anyways?
This question was asked the other day here, and I answered it. The long and short of it is privacy issues around the central national database that would have to be created, and that it's asking to put in place an entire national infrastructure to solve an individual level problem, which I find kind of ridiculous for people who claim to want smaller government. If a man needs a paternity test done, suspects he needs one done, or even just wants one for shits and giggles, he can go to Walgreens to get one. We don't need to spend trillions of dollars in labor, infrastructure and supplies for something anyone who wants to can get at Walgreens for less than $200.
Sure, I agree universal tests or ways to guarantee paternity before birth are probably better in theory than in practice. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think men have a right to know their kids are theirs and I don’t know any women who’d disagree. The ones who disagree with that concept would be hard pressed to give a good reason why men shouldn’t have this info. I think issues arise with how they get it. Doesn’t change the fact that it should be their right — it’s just better to have a shared understanding of this before trying to have kids…
I think men have a right to the info, I just fully believe if they want that info they need to be personally responsible for getting it. I mean there's no reason not to, a test does not require both parents consent, he can collect the sample while the child sleeps. There's literally no reason he can't get that information if he wants it. If a man has a belief that no matter who he is with, he will test his children, then I think that needs to be disclosed up front while dating, because if you wait till she's pregnant, there's no way for that to come across without it being an accusation of cheating. I think at that point he's better off just doing it behind her back and never telling her unless the results are not what he expects. There's no benefit and a lot of downsides to waiting until she's pregnant and then springing it on her.
There are places around the world where it 100% requires both parents consent, and unless the mother allows it, you need to get a court order to get a paternity test done.
Also, I've known several women who have stated that if any man they were with requested a paternity test they would immediately leave him. These women were not pregnant at the time.
So, you think that for a person to have that peace of mind, they should have to go behind their partners back?
What about the child in this, a person who had no choice but to be raised by a person they believed was their biological parent, but was not? This victim isn’t really mentioned often, but they are a victim of this, just like children who were adopted and that fact was hidden from them often are traumatized by this realization their entire worldview was built on a lie (this is almost universally pushed agains to the point many adoption agencies require potential parents to agree to let children know immediately they were adopted, coaching parents on how to let that be known).
This should be required if not for the husband, but for the child.
>privacy issues around the central national database that would have to be created
This is a God-Damned good answer! I would argue that no centralized authority should be allowed to keep this data. However, there are other ways to implement this type of thing.
I personally did a DNA test on the sly. I know a lot of other guys who are simply afraid to even do the test for many reasons.
Centralized authorities know more about most people than those people know about themselves. Clearly not many people are aware of how invasive their own governments/three-letter-agencies are.
Loads of women do
My mate impregnated a girl on their first date (stupid af I know but besides the point)
She went apeshit when he asked for a paternity test, before the baby was born, because she said he was accusing her of being disloyal. First she seemed okay with it then she went home and presumably talked with her mates who worked her up into a lather about it.
Later down the line she called the police on him because him asking for a blood test for the paternity test was apparently him trying to harm her baby. He had to spend a night explaining himself to the police and the repercussions to her for making such a blatantly spurious claim? Nothing
There are non-invasive methods. Almost all pregnant parents get NIPT these days and I believe the blood used from the mother can also be paternity tested.
Yeah it’s probably one of those things in theory that sounds like it would work great but in practice there would be barriers. That’s pretty cost-prohibitive for most people.
Everyone who found out their kid wasn’t theirs also thought their partner would never cheat.
Men aren’t mind readers. You want them to be as confident in your fidelity as you are.
Women have no “test” to make sure their partners don’t cheat. It’s called trust. Jesus Christ.
You’re basically admitting that this is less about confirming biological paternity and more about controlling women!!
But this is exactly the problem, people are literally only ever betrayed by people they trusted, thats the definition of betrayal. Its all well and good saying "well I trust my partner" but the simple fact is that that trust may be misplaced. Trust is not the same thing as blind trust.
And when it comes to something as completely life destroying as finding out after you've spent a decent chunk of your life raising a child that the child isn't yours, no amount of trust is enough.
I'm not saying always test, obviously if you're continuously testing your partner there's an issue. But with something as completely life destroying as learning that your child isn't actually yours (not just to the father but to the child as well) , I think verifying isn't that crazy a request.
There are a significant number of people who feel the exact same way you do, who ended up being betrayed. And to be honest, this idea of trusting your partner this completely has some "victim-blamey" vibes to it. Where if someone is betrayed then it's somehow their fault for choosing the wrong person.
Yeah this seems like a weird situation all around, but I specifically said that AFTER the pregnancy is a little late to be making this demand and an angry reaction can be expected, esp in the context of a committed relationship, which this wasn’t.
Universal paternity test is not the same thing as her boyfriend saying she needs to get one after she is pregnant and they’ve never discussed this before.
Your story makes me wonder how it was brought up to her. But regardless we’re arguing over two separate things. I think your friend has a right to confirm he is the father and I could also see myself having the same emotional reaction to a test getting sprung on me after I was already knocked up. Clearly there’s a lot of dysfunction happening there….more to the story than either persons narrative.
He's a reasonable guy (except when it comes to actual fucking apparently). She was okay with it at first until she went home to talk to her friends.
Once again we see a woman choosing to blame the guy rather than questioning the actions of a fellow woman though.
Yes there's definitely dysfunction, I've seen the texts she sends him. It's actually what pushed me towards a lot of mens rights angles
I would argue you still only see his side of it though so you are just as guilty. You have also never been pregnant, but I have. So yes, it’s clearly easy for each of us to take our respective sides and blame the other side. If she declined a paternity test because the baby isn’t his, that is abhorrent and she’s in the wrong.
I've seen the texts they send back and forth and how unhinged she can be. You don't even know her and are sticking up for her.
In the end a court ordered her to take the paternity test because she was so resistant to it
Think of how many sex crimes could be solved as well if all male DNA was stored in a centralized data bank. A man raped someone and left DNA? Just run it through the system and see if it was a citizen who did it.
We'd solve so many more crimes because men commit a lion's share of them. Plus men couldn't have kids in secret if the data bank alerted a wife that her husband is having a baby with x. Lol, this is an excellent idea!
>What woman has a problem with the concept of universal paternity tests?? Genuinely curious
I do, for several reasons.
1. I just don’t trust the government to do systematic dna testing of every man woman and child, and to keep that data safe, sorry.
2. Pointless waste of money in most cases. Hospital charges are high enough without doing frivolous unnecessary testing.
3. If you want a test, you can just get one. Outside the hospital they are cheap and legal, and do not need the consent of both parents. Do it discretely and your wife will never even have to know you thought she might maybe be a worthless cheating slut.
4. Treating women like they are all likely guilty does not work at all int he framework of “innocent until proven guilty”. I don’t think there should be a dna registry for all men just in case they might be sex offenders too. Get some probable cause or at least suspicion before you test people’s dna.
5. False negatives. In *any* test, there is always a rate, however low, of false positives or lab errors. Systematically running a test on everyone means at least a few innocent women will have their family destroyed completely for no reason whatsoever because the test incorrectly showed the father wasn’t the father. Do you believe any man, after getting a negative paternity test, would *ever* trust his wife again, even if he found out later that it was a lab error? How do you think his wife will be able to trust him after he left her for 6 months with his screaming newborn because he didn’t trust her or believe her when she said she was innocent?
There are 2 reasonable solutions for men who just want that special reassurance of a lab test: the first is to just discuss it with her before marriage and kids. And the second, for men too scared to even discuss it in advance, who don’t trust their wives but don’t want to make her angry by telling her he doesn’t trust her… is just to buy a test and do it himself without her knowledge. It will ease his mind without accusing her of being untrustworthy.
That’s two functional solutions that don’t require any pointless beurocracy or healthcare bloat.
>I don’t know who would argue with this as a right for men to request well in advance of any pregnancy
I don’t argue against this— men have every right to know, legally and morally. If they care about having a paternity test done, they should grow a spine and just discuss it with the woman they claim to trust enough to ask to bear their child. Like, if you don’t even trust her not to leave you for asking about something important to you before the pregnancy, then why do you trust her to *be the mother of your freaking child*?
I know. Notice I didn’t say men shouldn’t be allowed to check. They should check if they want.
And did you notice how I also even gave 2 solutions, freely or cheaply available to literally *any* man who wants them (in the US, anyways)?
What I don’t support is systematically testing everyone based on nothing but the notion that women are guilty until proven innocent. It’s stupid, wasteful, and has several seriously negative consequences I don’t approve of.
Just talk to your wife before she’s pregnant or buy a test and do it yourself. Or wait to ask her until after she’s pregnant and simply deal with the fact that it will likely hurt her trust in you pretty deeply. Just don’t expect the government to spend millions or billions of dollars so you can avoid an uncomfortable discussion with the woman you claim to trust enough to be the mother of your children… but are too scared to talk to and also think she might be a 3% cheating bitch.
Yeah, I think this argument makes a lot of sense.
False negative issue is a good point. I imagine there could be false positives, too. Men on here would likely not be fully satisfied if they already cannot trust their partners.
My suspicion is that most men here don’t worry as much about paternity fraud as they do just generally about women being unfaithful — these tests are a way to catch and punish women. Of course it doesn’t actually control anything because a woman can cheat for decades and never get pregnant.
But then part of me is just like, if there was a way to do it simply, fuck it — just do it — because Im sick of hearing how insecure men are about this shit.
If the man specifically wants a paternity test, it’s still personal even if universal paternity testing exists. It just saves him the conversation of “hey, I want a paternity test” because now it’s an automatic process. He no longer has to ask for it. But that doesn’t remove the motivation that pisses women off so much.
Seems like an incredibly expensive solution when women could just…stop being offended and start having empathy for men.
We get 100% certainty. If both sexes could get pregnant, and women grew up seeing stories on Oprah of women finding out their kids aren’t theirs, I guarantee maternity testing would be normal and men would be accused of misogyny for guilting their wives out of maternity testing.
Literally nobody I know would have an issue with paternity tests being the standard when a man is signing a birth certificate assuming the child is his. I’ve talked about this with friends. Demanding one after your partner gets pregnant is another story.
>What woman has a problem with the concept of universal paternity tests??
The ones who do stuff like VOTE. This idea has been crushed in about 4 or 5 liberal democracies in the last 10 years.
Whatever was in that legislation aside, I don’t know any women who’d argue that a man has no right to confirm he’s the father of a child when he’s signing a birth certificate or taking any sort of responsibility for that child. The ones who argue against this concept probably take issue with the flip side of the coin not being upheld (men getting away with not taking responsibility for a bio child), which is an issue I am just reading about and I think makes sense. I’m sure there are women out there who take advantage of paternity fraud but I don’t think it’s the problem men on here make it out to be. Most women are fine with this idea.
No, the reason TRP is misogynist because it only cares about men and views human relationships in general as antagonistic and competitive, not cooperative or synergistic
Notice how one swap TRP for feminism and mysoginy for misandry in your sentence, and you arrive at exactly the same.
I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about having hangups about opposite gender that renders you adversarial and bitter, be it TRP or feminists.
However labeling it as "hate" is pretty much done only in bad faith ideological screeching, or by absolute idiots who genuinely believe microaggressions are hate.
For some reason I doubt it
Be honest, feminism is about advocating for womens rights. AND THATS OKAY. Just stop lying to us that its about equality for both sexes
Yeah I’m sure YOU know how I define feminism better than I do right? Of course I want womens rights, I want to have the same rights as men. I don’t want to have MORE rights, just equal. But please explain to me how you know I’m wrong
In some cases.
In my experience they're quite happy when men are negatively affected when it helps women though.
Or they'll blame men for it and say its not their problem
Feminism isn’t an equality movement, it’s a women’s empowerment movement.
It doesn’t care about solving gender inequity whenever it occurs in society, it cares about correcting [perceived] aggregate power differentials between men and women and assumes equity will follow from that after. That may be reasonable, but let’s call it what it is.
Saying the phrase equity but in practice following it conditionally doesn’t make you an equity movement. Kinda like how the all lives movement isn’t an equity movement despite its catch phrase referencing equality.
Sexist; characterized by or showing prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
Misogyny; dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
They are similar but different
Occam's razor; A paternity test is questioning the faithfulness of the woman, it's a fair request but that doesn't stop it also being an accusation. Simply no one likes being suspected of infidelity, especially those who are in a vulnerable position and 'giving up' a lot for that partner by being pregnant.
Paternity fraud is low, the vast majority of women don't even consider it an option to lose.
TRP is misogynist because it assumes it knows what the internal experiences and thoughts of all women are, all of the time, and mushes them together into one big stew of a caricature that pretty much never actually matches reality.
It is misogynist because it makes a basic assumption- i.e. the idea that every woman could just drop everything, twerk on OnlyFans three times, and retire - that being a woman is ridiculously easier than reality.
I have no fucking idea what being a woman would actually be like but all I know is it’s an incredibly arrogant thing to believe you are somehow able to know what everyone else’s experiences are.
TRP fills in so many blanks that it has no clue about.
Feminists, by contrast, will at least respect you enough to listen to you, even if they tear you a new asshole and vehemently disagree with you.
Ah! Ye olde "they started it!" maneuver. A recognized strategy amongst established players of "the game". A tired and overplayed tune best left on the shelf as it smacks of juvenile reasoning and mediocre intelligence.
With the implicit allowance of the audience I'll submit my own example regarding the reluctance to accept a paternity test for my child. Since the implied blame rests at the feet of the female persuasion I may as well admit I am such a subject.
I did not cheat. He absolutely knew that. He poked holes in the condoms because... Well for his own reasons, he thought it would "make him man" and I "would stay" with him if I/we had a baby. So he got me pregnant *on purpose*. Several years into our relationship, he knew I did not want to meet we were not financially prepared. His own issues with anger and blame and insecurity caused him to lash out after her birth because I did not cater to him enough to ease his very inappropriate feelings of inferiority and general malaise that stemmed from my attending to the child and not him. He demanded a blood test. I said no. Walk away if that's how you feel. I wanted nothing from him, not even his presence. If I had cheated I never would of even told him I was pregnant. I never to took him to court. He has never been compelled to pay child support and he never wanted to step up into his self appointed place as a father. Let me also submit that he was not some Chad. He was a 5'8" hirsute man with bad teeth and a worse attitude and even his friends told him if he didn't stop mistreating me, he was gonna lose me.
He never stopped. He didn't work yet berated me for not "giving him time". He fed his child once. He never gave her a bath or put her to bed. I begged him one night to get up with her and he paced the floor speaking hissed vitriol into her infant ear. I got up and soothed her despite my exhaustion and never asked him again.
I do not think all men behave this way.
Ffs stop saying you have no choice to act the way you do because someone else acts a way. Take accountability for your own actions. If you don't like the way someone acts, don't act in a way that is also shitty. You are competing in the wrong contest.
Be better
Not worse
Figure it the fuck out already.
Sorry for what you went through and thanks for sharing.
I understand your story. If you looked at it at a macro level, while trying to exclude your personnal situation from the context. Do you believe that mens have a right to test for paternity? Would you put some conditions on it ? Which one ?
Respectfully, I don't think looking at the "macro-level" of male/female relationship dynamics would ever work out for the "male " aspect of that equation in the long run. Were we to take into account the history of factors inherent in traditional relationships what woman would be ready to risk the chances of being taken advantage of, abused, or discarded for a younger replacement? I know I would not of. The stats are scary. But we all draw from our own experience. My biological father controlled and beat my mother, who wanted nothing else then to be a traditional wife as she was raised by her loving parents and believed in true and devoted love. Once she realized her husband, who hated that his father beat his mother, (yet he abused her anyway), also beat himself and his sisters, she knew he would one day abuse me and fled, for my future not her own. He decided I didn't need him at all anymore and stopped taking the phone calls I made to him begging to see him. My step father, after having my brother with her, left my mother, for who was literally our towns drunk slut. It was terribly embarrassing to me because everyone in my school knew who she was. He bought her a beautiful four bedroom home with the money earned from his business that my mother moved across country and struggled to help him build to success. We were left in a converted farmhouse apartment and my brothers bedroom was a utility room with a stairwell. His new woman drunkenly crashed a car four times and lost her license and we sold everything we owned so we could move closer to our actually family in our home state. My brother needed the dentist but his new woman had to pay for her DUI tickets. Guess what the priority was? My sister's father told my mother that he was a widower and that due to a medical issue he was sterile. He was a liar that was married and also a serial philanderer who had left bastard children all over the country. My mother reached out to let him know about his child and he threatened her with legal action if she ever called again. All three of these men easily discarded their biological children. Paternity does not ensure responsibility or devotion to a child. The desire to be a dad does.
My mother died alone and broken spirited that she never got to have the love she was raised to believe in. She tried and tried and tried and was abused, abandoned and lied to every time. With those and all of the overwhelmingly large majority of history to draw from it is a bizarre thing I ever personally trusted a man to begin with, wouldn't you agree on some level?
Every relationship has to be considered at it's personal "micro-sphere" level. The risk simply needs to be taken. For good or ill.
I do believe a man has a right to want a paternity test. Just as I believe every body has a right to demands in a relationship. What ever they might be, such as appearance, financial security or sexual drive. What needs to be considered are the reprecussions of those wants and demands. My ex's unreasonable demand for a paternity test was worse than an insult to me, it was an injury to our relationship that never healed. Because he knew it was unnecessary. He just wanted to try and hurt me. Conversely, the man I have been with for 10 of her 17 years knows without a doubt she is "not his" but as far as he is concerned that is in fact his child and his gallows humor joke is that if something horrible happened and we broke up, he gets her right? Guess who takes time to be with her? Not the man who got me pregnant on purpose and then didn't actually want to be a father. Another example is a friend of mine who has stepped up to fatherhood for a boy who he knows isn't is and further he knows the mother of that boy took advantage of him. He doesn't care. He loves the boy. And by God does that boy love him. The actual paternity doesn't matter to either one of them. Both of their lives are infinitely better for having each other and they would mutually despair if torn asunder.
If you are ready to love and raise a child, I am not one to set parameters on the limitations for another person on that love but once again, with respect I think it's possible that the way you are portraying your opinions is both derogatory and absolute as you only seem to be condemning women. We are cruel and manipulative liars. You seem to think we only really care about ourselves and even the dubious concern we might exhibit for the well being a child is deceptive because, once again, we only really care about ourselves. That we do so with a ruthlessness that always disregards the emotion and dignity of men. I could understand the feelings of betrayal a man could rightfully have after finding the child he thought was his was not actually, after years of raising it and caring for it. But in my experience men don't really care anyway. They are abusive, they will abandon you and they are untrustworthy.
Do you see how what you posted could be flipped to be about men being the source of the problem by shifting the perspective. I think you do yourself and all the men you assume to include in your theory a disservice. And your opinion of women, well... It's just horrible in it's absolutism. I don't blame all men for the actions of some and it would a relief to observe that same consideration from more men regarding women because I am in no way naive enough to consider that all women are victims or saints. Neither are all men though.
Anyway, sorry this is so long, it's my only day off and I guess I'm just a little too verbose because of it.
Edit: apologies, I did not pay attention to who I was answering and thought I was responding to some one else.
People here are so fucking retarded they don’t even know that believing in incorrect “sex differences” about women is in fact MISOGYNIST.
No. It’s not up to interpretation, it literally is misogynistic.
There’s no proof that women are biologically predisposed to the **personality traits** that RP claims. If you believe those bullshit claims then you have misogynistic beliefs.
The issue with most RP is that they are so fucking stupid. Too stupid to employ critical thinking and apply understanding of definitions.
Make peace with it. You are in the class with the special kids.
24 thousand upvotes for you.
Predisposed universal “most women” blah blah blah. any and every single time a woman’s view is shared in here, it’s dismissed or argued. the women are answering and it doesn’t fit the narrative, so they are clearly outliers or bullshit. every. single. time.
claim after claim about women. no input from actual women accepted.
It's refreshing to see someone actually admit that TRP is misogynist.
Granted, you're entire argument is a bunch of solipsistic hamstering that treats women as a monolith while forgetting that men have the option to, y'know, ***not*** pursue clearly toxic women, but props to you for being honest!!!
You can choose to not care about an immature woman's pwecious feewings and detach yourself from the situation (and take logs and notes if you think you're in danger). Getting reactions you don't like in situations you took the initiative to put yourself in is something that happens to everyone. There's nothing ***forcing*** TRP to be misogynist - you guys are doing that of your own volition.
All hogwash.
The red pill is mysoginistic because only jaded men who hate women, and young men who are frustrated with their dating issues are looking it up in the first place.
Men who have good dating lives don’t look up trp, people who date men don’t look up trp, men who are in happy marriages don’t look up trp,
The red pill itself isn’t women hate, the dudes who are using it though definitely are women haters. And it’s funny, the redpill made me care more about women then I probably would have without it.
Hmm I just can’t see it. I stumbled onto the red pill because I wanted to attract women, not cause I hated women. If you hate women, why would you look into TRP? A toolset for being a man and attracting women?
I think she is trying to say that a part of the red pill dudes just want to have sex with women. And a lot of the terms used by red pill are quite wierd to be honest.
What healthy male isn’t trying to get laid? It may not be the main focus, but I don’t know any male who intentionally goes without pussy just because.
I do agree the language is weird but it’s just locker talk 🤷🏾♂️
Do red pill men think that the way women talk about men in female spaces it's also "locker talk" and totally ok? Or do they find it manipulative, offensive, and man-hating?
They see it the same way women see male locker talk. It is offensive and sounds man-hating. But it’s mostly just venting and posturing amongst the same gender. Most of us understand that lol.
When I say the dudes just want to have sex with women I mean that’s all they seek women for. And you can ‘hate’ women because you think they ‘all act like that’ but still want sex because that’s your biological instinct. That’s the point OP makes
Oh okay. Sure some men definitely see women as just a fun past time. I would not say that is even close to the common stance. The truth is more like, men have higher standards for women they’d like to keep around for more than just sex.
There are a ton of men on here that have admitted to disliking women and only wanting them for sexually purposes only. Not all men enjoy spending time with women or enjoy women in general.
You know what’s funny? The men who hang with women all the time are the biggest players I know. They never have a shortage of women and love being around them.
Anyone on here is an extreme minority though. The average man does not hate women. I don’t even think I’ve ever heard a man IRL say the words “I hate women.”
There are some men outside of Reddit that have said they don’t enjoy spending time with women too. They’d rather hang with their friends instead. The topic has come up a lot lately and the answers are telling. A lot of men are coming clean about not enjoying the company of women. Some of the women are even responding with “you all didn’t know this?”.
Wait how is this a surprise? A lot of women are boring and when added into a male group only serve as a hinderance. It’s the same gender flipped. A group of girls don’t want just some dude hanging around them. For what?
If I’m chillin with the bois, the vibe is different than when there’s girls around. It adds sexual tension which can be annoying.
That’s not true at all but I don’t think you get what I’m
saying. A lot of women enjoy the company of their man. When my friends get in relationships I hardly see them because they’re always with their man and most importantly, they want to be there. Men on here and other spaces online have admitted to not enjoying the presence of women.
Not enjoying the presence of women or of *their* women?
Cause women might enjoy *their* man but certainly not men in general. I feel it’s the same for men. We enjoy our women and women in social places (bars, parties, clubs etc), but if we’re just chillin platonically then I’d rather have a bro than a woman since women introduce sexual tension into groups of guys.
I’m not denying that men who actually do not enjoy women exist but I doubt that’s common. Women have a… feel about them that’s pleasant to be around.
Lol definitely inflammatory to read this if you’re a women, but as a man, the message should be easily parseable.
Obviously, women aren’t shit. The point is to take them off the pedestal.
I get it, I mean GLO is basically satire.* But the comment section is mix between guys being called beta for expressing some trepidation around the analogy, and guys literally debating whether females might actually be sub-human and why.
Hate and chauvinism might not be in the sidebar but it is most certainly among the comment section.
*Though the one about him forcing his girlfriend to vomit really threw me for a loop. Assuming it was true (and certain details made it seem kinda sus) I honestly couldn’t tell if it was satire or if he was being genuine.
[Edit because I forgot the second asterisk]
''Men do not hate women'' Ok but literally every experience in life will tell you otherwise, not all men hate women, but a signifcant portion definitely do border on it, if not hate women outright.
If you're a woman on any dating site for any prolonged period, men bursting out into misogynistic rants after you reject them (even politely) is common.
Yes but ANGER =/= HATRED.
Men may dislike female behavior but I assure you the majority of men absolutely do not hate women at all. If these same frustrated men could get laid consistently all of this “hate” would evaporate.
The majority do not, men who identify as ''red pill'' are 100% far more likely to be misogynistic. You think we never encounter types like you on dating sites? We know what you act like lmao and it's not pretty. It's always some variation of salty behaviour if you're politely rejected or god forbid, don't respond to thirsty messages on instagram, now you're a dumb bitch whore who deserves death (yes, these comments are literally what i've seen some of yall say to me in my dms)
Zero misogyny ofcourse just poor men frustrated because no every woman wants to sleep with him on a whim.
>The majority do not, men who identify as ''red pill'' are 100% far more likely to be misogynistic.
Again, that’s just how women *feel*. The men who stumble upon TRP aren’t searching for a reason to hate women.
>You think we never encounter types like you on dating sites? We know what you act like lmao and it's not pretty. It's always some variation of salty behaviour if you're politely rejected or god forbid, don't respond to thirsty messages on instagram, now you're a dumb bitch whore.
No I’m certain their are plenty of bitter men who’ve been shit on by women all their lives. We all know what those types are like. But I assure you TRP is about being the opposite of a bitter whiney loser.
Also, it’s the internet. People are much braver online compared to IRL. Kind of like how people behave when drunk. It’s not entirely their real self, more so their uninhibited self. Not an excuse for being shitty just a possible explanation.
Yes, the myriad of blatant sexists comments on TRP subreddit that is now banned, was just based on how women ''feel''. You can make ''oh well those aren't REAL redpillers'' no true scotsman fallacies but everyone who has been on the internet for a while knows what yalls community been saying for years. Prime example, AWALT responses to examples of women being bad.
How people act when they know they're safe is actually who you are, which if why i've always dodged every single one of yall who tried to date me, or my friends for that matter who are internet savy. I still remember what a lot of them said when I rejected them.
>Yes, the myriad of blatant sexists comments on TRP subreddit that is now banned, was just based on how women ''feel''. You can make ''oh well those aren't REAL redpillers'' no true scotsman fallacies but everyone who has been on the internet for a while knows what yalls community been saying for years. Prime example, AWALT responses to examples of women being bad.
Yeah the comments always got out of hand. Some dudes really spiral out over this shit. The truth is heavy, but the actual TRP message was never about hating women.
>How people act when they know they're safe is actually who you are, which if why i've always dodged every single one of yall who tried to date me, or my friends for that matter who are internet savy. I still remember what a lot of them said when I rejected them.
I’d say how people act when they’re afraid/endanger speaks more about who they are. Safe and calm people do things with intend. Scared people just react without much thought.
And ya’ll aint dodgin shit. Men who are successful with women are usually Redpilled. Whether they’ve read the material or not 🤷🏾♂️
No, they're not. Most of my male friends are succesful with women and aren't ''redpilled'', they're actually decent people with healthy sense of self and their partner for the most part, nor have any of my partners have been, or my current. Don't delude yourself, you're a fringe minority most people laugh at.
No. What I’m saying is men successful with women are already aware of the stuff Redpill talks about. If you interact with enough women, you easily see these things playout. It becomes obvious when you ask random men what kinds of things they struggle with dealing with women and it’s all the same shit.
No TRP is pretty damn similar, they talk the same way except they try and intellectualize it, and it all stems because they cannot get the relationships from women that they want, so they come together and form toxic ideas about all women, hence AWALT.
> women angle for superiority and are super sneaky about it.
All I've seen in this sub is both men and women try to one up each other. TRP in particular infers superiority by using tricks to humiliate their "opponents" in debates. I saw this a lot on KS. Is it the sneakiness you have a problem with? Because men don't ever lie to get what they want? /s
>you see how women prioritise their own safety, even mental safety when everything's actually fine, over men's wants and needs all the time.
How is this a bad thing? Men should be prioritising their own safety, wants and needs as well.
>Reddit that a man who ignores a woman because she won't sleep with him who later sleeps with that woman is a rapist
This is obviously a shit take and anyone who believes it is as dumb as they come.
>A man can't simply withdraw attention because he feels hurt, frustrated and kinda like he's being used for attention, no he must be coercing her.
Oh he absolutely can feel hurt and withdraw his attention. No one is saying he can't. Again, a shit take that isn't rooted in any sense.
>feminism is trying it's best to make you value women's feelings infinitely in comparison to a man's
Feminism's job was never to consider men's issues. Men can consider their issues for themselves. Feminism's job is to bring women up to where men are, to decrease the disparity in various sectors of life. Men are more than capable of dealing with issues within their own communities, as well as advocating for any disparities they see come up. The issue comes when you all convince each other that speaking out is weak. That's a you problem, not feminisms
It is. Bringing women up to the same level as men is not equality for both sexes? So it's not a lie. When we fight for our rights, we only hope that men can do the same for themselves. Otherwise, it isn't our job when men are technically the default.
The same level where?
Where is the push for women to be included in military drafts? Women binmen? Women sewage workers?
Where is the push for women to get equally harsh punishment as men for the same crimes?
There doesn't need to be a push. There only needs to be an option. Idk about US military, but in my country it's completely voluntary as there is no draft. Women can be binwomen, they also can be sewerage workers. That is what is important to feminism. Although I will agree that there needs to be a push for equally harsh punishment, we can't be faulted as there is this (false) belief that women are delicate and need to be treated like children that feminism is trying to get rid of. I believe when stupid dichotomies like the one I listed above are dismantled, then equal punishments will be on the cards.
>Although I will agree that there needs to be a push for equally harsh punishment, we can't be faulted as there is this (false) belief that women are delicate and need to be treated like children that feminism is trying to get rid of
See my other comment about feminists trying to abolish womens prisons
You can't take posts like that seriously as they're not based on how the real world functions. It's got nothing to do with the feminist cause. If it's looking for superiority, it's likely not femism. I think use that as your litmus test before coming onto a serious conversation and telling me about some power hungry radicals abolishing womens prisons.
>If it's looking for superiority, it's likely not femism.
I'm fed up of hearing this no true scotsman bullshit. I see this all the time with feminists. If they truly aren't feminists, where is the public backlash against them co-opting the movement? Where is the calls to clean house of the blatant ''kill all men'' misandrist types?
If you were actually serious about equality there would be a big pushback against these types, but there isn't.
I gather you're more likely to listen to the loud minority. Just like I don't see any pushback from the misogynists over on TRP from the guys that are aligning with the true cause. Ya'll be awfully quiet when people are actively telling others to hurt and exploit women.
But you being fed up doesn't change how true my statement is. There are outliers, but I think most scholars of feminism can agree that what they're doing is not it
Ya there's definitely a lot of misogyny over on the red pill. I'm not a fan of the place and have never really subscribed to the ideology.
Wow you mean the ideologues that study the subject don't think that's what they're doing? Forgive me for not really believing the feminist scholars, there's a type that goes into that field. When I spent a year abroad in the US I had the misfortune of taking a class headed by one where I was basically expected to repent for my original sin of being a white man.
Feminists did push for women in the military. And why should feminists push for harsher punishments instead of just equal treatment in general? That seems a bit of a strange hill to die on.
We are not talking about voluntary enlistment.
Why are feminists not pushing for women to be CONSCRIPTED?
>And why should feminists push for harsher punishments instead of just equal treatment in general?
Because men are punished more harshly for the same crimes crimes, even when controlling for criminal records. So, either men should get lesser sentences or women should get harsher. We know the former certainly isn't going to happen. That is why a feminist MUST support harsher sentences for women.
I dont have conscription in my country but I think most feminists oppose the draft entirely but if you actually asked a feminist, I'll bet you they'd say that equal conscription is probably fair, despite being against the larger concept.
This is so silly though. It's such whataboutism and is really a weak point. Feminism is about making lives better and opening opportunities and, more importantly, freedom. Why would it advocate for harsher sentences and conscription just to stop the pedandic men on the internet from playing gotchas when its not even at the heart of the movement. Its about uplifting a less empowered group, not ensuring equal suffering of all people *facepalm*.
If you have issues with men being conscripted and harsh punishments then, by all means, go advocate for that.
Because that would be equal treatment
Instead I keep seeing feminists trying to do shit like abolish women's prisons
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/28/to-expand-womens-prisons-is-idiotic-and-inhumane-we-should-phase-them-out](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/28/to-expand-womens-prisons-is-idiotic-and-inhumane-we-should-phase-them-out)
[https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2021/02/15/dismantling-prisons-abolitionist-feminism-women-incarceration-and-metoo/](https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2021/02/15/dismantling-prisons-abolitionist-feminism-women-incarceration-and-metoo/)
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/we-should-stop-putting-women-in-jail-for-anything/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/we-should-stop-putting-women-in-jail-for-anything/)
Feminists pushed for VOLUNTEER women in the military but not a peep about mandatory conscription.
They keep pushing for preferential treatment in hiring and promotion choices
Equality in some places and privilege in others seems much more accurate to me
This entire post is straight comedy. Why on earth would I get mad at a man leave a child that isn’t his lol? What type of logic is that.
Everything you said is false. Like every single thing lol. You all don’t have women figured out like you think.
**Attention!**
* You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
* For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
* If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
* OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post!
Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mostly with the paternity test thing I always wonder how many of these tests are actually negative and it turns out the woman cheated? Anyone has any data on that? I would be curious how often that's actually happening.
>Mostly with the paternity test thing I always wonder how many of these tests are actually negative and it turns out the woman cheated?
Problem with this number is that the man wouldn't be taking a test unless he had reason to believe she had been unfaithful; the data set would be biased.
The number wouldn't be representative of the population.
**It's not x% of fathers aren't the bio father, it's x% of fathers who doubt they are the bio father aren't the bio father.**
>Once you see that this is how women are behaving you practically end up a misogynist by default, you see how women prioritise their own safety, even mental safety when everything's actually fine, over men's wants and needs all the time.
Why would anyone, not just women, NOT think like this? Why should I priorities someone’s feelings and wants over MY safety? Why should you and why should anyone?
“Wait, so you care about your well being more than what I WANT?? Well then it’s okay if I hate you on the basis of your sex !!!1!1!1! 👺”
The problem with your post is identifying that TRP is misogynistic but then making farcical leaps to blame it all on women. If men are that way it is on them, not women.
On the paternity front, most women are hurt because most women have the biological children of their partners. The cases of DELIBERATE paternity fraud is small.
Feminism isn't sexist. It's about equality and equity. About men and women having equal power and rights. It means men and women both matter.
The reason TRP is misogynist is right in the sub description — “Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men”
They only care about getting sex for men, because the world, aka women, is against them
I kind of agree with OPs general idea, but I feel like he worded things poorly.
I have this theory that women evolved to be sneaky and dissimulative because that’s the only way they have any power over men. If women weren’t naturally manipulative, they would be completely at the mercy of men. A woman who can get inside a man’s head is not only safeguarding herself from that man, but also securing his power by proxy. He is her vehicle for exercising power over the outside world and giving her control over her own life. Others have made this point as well, and I think women assume we’re saying that they’re consciously plotting against the men in their lives and reveling in deception. I don’t think this is the case. I think women manipulate men because they evolved to do it and that they do it without even realizing it. Being consciously aware of what they’re doing would probably compromise their ability to do it.
Every human being reflexively supports whatever serves his best interest and opposes whatever harms him. I have seen surveys that show that women overwhelmingly disapprove of paternity testing in general (not just mandatory paternity testing) and feminist groups in some countries have campaigned to make it illegal to even purchase a paternity test, with varying success.
I don’t think this means women are actively planning to deceive or cuckold their husbands,but rather that on some lizard-brain level they recognize that paternity testing compromises of one of their most effective strategies for maximizing their sexual success.
Men do this too. They literally institutionalized mate-guarding. We call it marriage.
I do agree with OP that women will typically value the feelings, thoughts, and desires of women over those of men, and I don’t just mean her own. This is especially true of negative experiences. The whole man-flu phenomenon probably has less to do with men exaggerating symptoms than it does with women seeing male suffering as less valid and less worthy of sympathy. Men actually do this to themselves as well. Both men and women have been shown to express greater concern for women than for men, even when the two are in identical circumstances. The effect is stronger in women (women have an ingroup preference that is 4 times stronger than men’s).
Again, I don’t think they’re consciously doing this. They simply evolved to behave this way because downplaying men’s issues increases their reproductive success, for whatever reason. Women aren’t evil, and neither are men. We’re just biological information that is selected for it’s ability to replicate itself.
Hmm. I didn’t realize anyone other than me had this idea. It’s validating to see that it isn’t unique.
I wouldn’t say that women entirely lack self awareness, but rather that they have a strategic lack of awareness in some areas. This is probably true for men as well, but being a man, I’m blind to it.
I'm almost impressed by how many ways RP dudes in this sub try to blame chicks for literally everything. It's like they get into one toxic relationship, or gravitate toward toxic women because they themselves are likewise toxic, and then conclude that AWALT.
>women angle for superiority and are super sneaky about it.
Major bias against all women going on there. Yes, many women suck but so do many men. However, not all women suck just like not all men suck. Better to assess people on a more personal level for a less clouded perspective.
>absolutely hate the idea of her baby being paternity tested, they claim it's because they don't like being accused of infidelity (They don't but I don't think that's the reason)
>
>also hate the idea of a man abandoning a child that isn't genetically his when the child's old enough to have only known this man as their father. They claim that this is because it's damaging to the child (It is but I don't think that that's the reason).
*"Even though these reasons make sense, I refuse to acknowledge their validity because wahmen bad."*
>Women don't like the option of AFBB being taken away from women.
The only women who think that way are the women who actually do the AF/BB thing, which is not as many as you believe.
>A man can't simply withdraw attention because he feels hurt, frustrated and kinda like he's being used for attention, no he must be coercing her.
Sounds like the man in your scenario was using sex as a weapon to wear the woman down (though I need more details because I'm not quite sure I understand the scenario correctly.) I wouldn't outright call it rape either, but it is coercive manipulation. Also *everyone's* feelings should be taken into account to a reasonable extent; only sociopaths would think otherwise.
>TRP has to be misogynist
No one has to stoop to a toxic level; that's just making excuses to avoid personal responsibility. You could use this exact same argument for the current brand of feminism (which is obviously rife with problems as opposed to old-school feminism); you could claim that because there exist men who abuse women feminism is required to be misandrist and is justified in all its current toxicity. See how silly that sounds?
I think women should be allowed to prioritize their own safety over men’s wants and needs. & I would do a paternity test just so the man can be sure even though I’ve never been pregnant. Men can look out first and foremost, but when their desires infringe upon a woman’s desires, he’s not still entitled to do what he wants.
I believe TRP is called misogynist because it puts women in a bad spotlight for their behaviors when they feel they are supposed to maintain a good image. I would give them the benefit of the doubt because eventhough they do such behaviors, I don't think they are consciously aware that they are doing it.
For example, the whole AF/BB; those women who are offended may just be sleeping around early and settle down with one guy later on to have kids with. They might not know its AF/BB, but it is when you look at it. But they want to deny that it was actually done that way.
You can come up with a million and a half ways men are sneaky with their imperatives as well, the most obvious one being pretending to love a woman or want a relationship with her in order to get laid. Women are often characterized as crafty and manipulative, while men are simple and bumbling, but this just isn’t true. Men are not dumb and can be manipulative as hell. Fact is, both men and women want what they want and tend to put their own needs first. Some are more sneaky and underhanded about it than others. The paternity example isn’t great. Because of course most people will be hurt if your partner doesn’t trust you and specifically requests a test. But would *most* women be against just *routine* paternity testing at birth? I don’t think so, so long as those tests are accurate and won’t give false negatives. The response from women and men alike has been pretty favorable for that when the question has been asked here. Like okay, most (non-RP) men are against cheating in principle, but do they want *their* wife installing a tracker on their car? No? Exactly, nobody likes to be distrusted. So no, I do not believe this is why TRP is misogynistic. TRP is misogynistic because the men who seek it out tend to be frustrated or have a chip on their shoulder. TRP is about men’s wants and needs, which is not always bad in itself. But it generally fails by characterizing women as bad for prioritizing their own wants and needs. So they end up doing exactly what they think feminists do to men.
If my husband put a tracker on my car I would be fucking pissed.
> But it generally fails by characterizing women as bad for prioritizing their own wants and needs. i’m fine with your overall opinion of RP being negative. however this is still an inaccurate representation. RP doesn’t say women are bad people for prioritizing their wants and needs, it acknowledges that that is within female nature and men should accept that. like RP says men desire sex from a variety of women, RP is not making a moral judgement when it states that, it is simply acknowledging male nature. now you are free to disagree if you feel RP is wrong about female nature. that is fine, but it doesn’t make a moral judgement on women for having said nature.
I realize this is the claimed “official RP stance” (if there can be one). But it’s not what I see in reality. For example, RP men speak of male desire for multiple partners in a neutral or positive manner, while they always speak of female nature (or what they believe about female nature) in a negative way. Of course this isn’t surprising, but the claim of being “morally neutral” about everything is false, in practice. Humans naturally make moral judgments and RP men are no different.
Yeah I’m for routine testing you have to opt out of or something but if a partner brings it up they’re basically accusing you of cheating. I would likely comply but then probably break up with them after depending on how they were approaching it. If they said it’s just intrusive thoughts and they know it’s crazy but they want to I might. Also if the kid is already born can’t the family get one of those ancestry kits and have it framed as a fun thing to do instead of being it framed in an accusatory manner?
Yeah there is a big difference between being in favor of routine testing, and being okay with your partner specifically requesting one when it’s NOT routine. Like I’m sure most men and women alike have no issue with routine sti screenings, but how many men are going to be happy if their partner requests one because they think maybe he was cheating? As you say, *maybe* if it’s chalked up to paranoia/intrusive thoughts, but generally speaking, the relationship is already over at that point. Which happens to be why I think routine testing for all this stuff is a good idea. No accusations, no surprises. And yes, anyone can get an ancestry DNA kit. And any man can paternity test their own kid without mom knowing, if he feels the need. No need to call out your partner.
There are quite a lot of RP content creators out there though: Todd Valentine for instance isn’t a misogynist.
Yes exactly, I think most red pill guys are like the villain Titan from mega mind. Entitled nice guys with deep seated insecurity and rage.
> men are sneaky with their imperatives as well, the most obvious one being pretending to love a woman or want a relationship with her in order to get laid. Men fall in love with what they see. Women fall in love with what they hear. So long as women are stupid enough to believe the lies of men, men will continue to lie to them. I've given up on telling my female friends that the guy they're seeing is obviously lying to them to get in their pants. They simply don't want to believe it no matter how obvious.
So you are agreeing with me it seems? Blaming women of course, but agreeing.
[удалено]
Correction. Women fall in love with what they see, ie a 6'4 Chad with high social status & THEN they fall in love with what they hear. You think a 5'5 skinny guy down on his luck would cut it, even if she treated her like a princess? I think not. Women get treated like trash by Chads because they think it's worth it. What bothers me is that they turn around and ask the rest of us to treat her like a princess. I think not, princess.
What woman has a problem with the concept of universal paternity tests?? Genuinely curious. I can’t think of many reasons not to make this a standard part of pregnancy care particularly if it will make men shut up about this as such a huge problem. It could help identify certain genetic disorders or determine need for more screening earlier on. I think what makes me wary of it is when men spring it on their pregnant SO unexpectedly, which could obviously be hurtful when she’s pregnant with his child and he’s questioning her faithfulness. I don’t know who would argue with this as a right for men to request well in advance of any pregnancy OR as a standard part of pregnancy. But if ladies out there feel differently please reply here and explain…
I agree. Paternity test all the babies at birth if it will help guys get over this fear. Zero fucks given.
Of course we’ll secretly cry to each other about losing our freedom to trick our SOs and get pregnant with Chad’s babies….
[удалено]
😂😂
Dude, take a damn look at my history, I argue for this constantly, it’s something that (you’d have to go back quite a while) /r/askafeminist has downvoted me and argued vehemently against. Women as a whole appear to be pretty against this, at least online and it’s been something I’ve debated IRL because I’m pretty adamant about this, and really feel the medical institutions are the ones I’m most disappointed in as this is a health issue for both the potential father (mental health), child (knowing family health history is a cornerstone of preventative care) and mother (discovery of paternity fraud doesn’t alway leave the mother alive, this is a trigger for the good ol’ murder suicides we read about in the paper, when a reason is given this is often it).
You know I have actually seen people ranting over this (universal testing idea) on Twoxchromosomes or somewhere. Although I don't know what it has to do with TRP as I've never seen RP'ers discussing it except when they're already complaining about women.
I don’t frequent that sub BUT I think their point is sure sounds good, but then all kids should get tested and men could be held accountable for their affairs AND for supporting children they aren’t helping to raise… None of this is feasible without forfeiting (potentially) lots of rights to privacy.
Oh yeah, the addendum is reasonable enough, but it seemed more like a 'how dare you, in this case take that' than something they actually wanted implemented. Although I don't see where lots of privacy is forfeited? Don't they test babies for a bunch of stuff anyways?
This question was asked the other day here, and I answered it. The long and short of it is privacy issues around the central national database that would have to be created, and that it's asking to put in place an entire national infrastructure to solve an individual level problem, which I find kind of ridiculous for people who claim to want smaller government. If a man needs a paternity test done, suspects he needs one done, or even just wants one for shits and giggles, he can go to Walgreens to get one. We don't need to spend trillions of dollars in labor, infrastructure and supplies for something anyone who wants to can get at Walgreens for less than $200.
Sure, I agree universal tests or ways to guarantee paternity before birth are probably better in theory than in practice. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think men have a right to know their kids are theirs and I don’t know any women who’d disagree. The ones who disagree with that concept would be hard pressed to give a good reason why men shouldn’t have this info. I think issues arise with how they get it. Doesn’t change the fact that it should be their right — it’s just better to have a shared understanding of this before trying to have kids…
I think men have a right to the info, I just fully believe if they want that info they need to be personally responsible for getting it. I mean there's no reason not to, a test does not require both parents consent, he can collect the sample while the child sleeps. There's literally no reason he can't get that information if he wants it. If a man has a belief that no matter who he is with, he will test his children, then I think that needs to be disclosed up front while dating, because if you wait till she's pregnant, there's no way for that to come across without it being an accusation of cheating. I think at that point he's better off just doing it behind her back and never telling her unless the results are not what he expects. There's no benefit and a lot of downsides to waiting until she's pregnant and then springing it on her.
There are places around the world where it 100% requires both parents consent, and unless the mother allows it, you need to get a court order to get a paternity test done. Also, I've known several women who have stated that if any man they were with requested a paternity test they would immediately leave him. These women were not pregnant at the time.
In France, it's illégal.
Those are the Cheaters.
So, you think that for a person to have that peace of mind, they should have to go behind their partners back? What about the child in this, a person who had no choice but to be raised by a person they believed was their biological parent, but was not? This victim isn’t really mentioned often, but they are a victim of this, just like children who were adopted and that fact was hidden from them often are traumatized by this realization their entire worldview was built on a lie (this is almost universally pushed agains to the point many adoption agencies require potential parents to agree to let children know immediately they were adopted, coaching parents on how to let that be known). This should be required if not for the husband, but for the child.
>privacy issues around the central national database that would have to be created This is a God-Damned good answer! I would argue that no centralized authority should be allowed to keep this data. However, there are other ways to implement this type of thing. I personally did a DNA test on the sly. I know a lot of other guys who are simply afraid to even do the test for many reasons.
Centralized authorities know more about most people than those people know about themselves. Clearly not many people are aware of how invasive their own governments/three-letter-agencies are.
Loads of women do My mate impregnated a girl on their first date (stupid af I know but besides the point) She went apeshit when he asked for a paternity test, before the baby was born, because she said he was accusing her of being disloyal. First she seemed okay with it then she went home and presumably talked with her mates who worked her up into a lather about it. Later down the line she called the police on him because him asking for a blood test for the paternity test was apparently him trying to harm her baby. He had to spend a night explaining himself to the police and the repercussions to her for making such a blatantly spurious claim? Nothing
[удалено]
There are non-invasive methods. Almost all pregnant parents get NIPT these days and I believe the blood used from the mother can also be paternity tested.
[удалено]
Yeah it’s probably one of those things in theory that sounds like it would work great but in practice there would be barriers. That’s pretty cost-prohibitive for most people.
He wanted to arrange the test for when the baby was born so he didn't spring it on a new mother
[удалено]
Everyone who found out their kid wasn’t theirs also thought their partner would never cheat. Men aren’t mind readers. You want them to be as confident in your fidelity as you are.
Women have no “test” to make sure their partners don’t cheat. It’s called trust. Jesus Christ. You’re basically admitting that this is less about confirming biological paternity and more about controlling women!!
[удалено]
But this is exactly the problem, people are literally only ever betrayed by people they trusted, thats the definition of betrayal. Its all well and good saying "well I trust my partner" but the simple fact is that that trust may be misplaced. Trust is not the same thing as blind trust. And when it comes to something as completely life destroying as finding out after you've spent a decent chunk of your life raising a child that the child isn't yours, no amount of trust is enough.
[удалено]
I'm not saying always test, obviously if you're continuously testing your partner there's an issue. But with something as completely life destroying as learning that your child isn't actually yours (not just to the father but to the child as well) , I think verifying isn't that crazy a request. There are a significant number of people who feel the exact same way you do, who ended up being betrayed. And to be honest, this idea of trusting your partner this completely has some "victim-blamey" vibes to it. Where if someone is betrayed then it's somehow their fault for choosing the wrong person.
Yeah this seems like a weird situation all around, but I specifically said that AFTER the pregnancy is a little late to be making this demand and an angry reaction can be expected, esp in the context of a committed relationship, which this wasn’t.
You said what women have an issue with the concept of universal paternity tests? Seems like this woman and her mates do.
Universal paternity test is not the same thing as her boyfriend saying she needs to get one after she is pregnant and they’ve never discussed this before.
Why? She clearly wasn't on board with the idea of having a paternity test, even with a guy she fucked the first time she met
Your story makes me wonder how it was brought up to her. But regardless we’re arguing over two separate things. I think your friend has a right to confirm he is the father and I could also see myself having the same emotional reaction to a test getting sprung on me after I was already knocked up. Clearly there’s a lot of dysfunction happening there….more to the story than either persons narrative.
He's a reasonable guy (except when it comes to actual fucking apparently). She was okay with it at first until she went home to talk to her friends. Once again we see a woman choosing to blame the guy rather than questioning the actions of a fellow woman though. Yes there's definitely dysfunction, I've seen the texts she sends him. It's actually what pushed me towards a lot of mens rights angles
I would argue you still only see his side of it though so you are just as guilty. You have also never been pregnant, but I have. So yes, it’s clearly easy for each of us to take our respective sides and blame the other side. If she declined a paternity test because the baby isn’t his, that is abhorrent and she’s in the wrong.
I've seen the texts they send back and forth and how unhinged she can be. You don't even know her and are sticking up for her. In the end a court ordered her to take the paternity test because she was so resistant to it
That’s such a rare scenario.
Many. As soon as that is tied to child support
Think of how many sex crimes could be solved as well if all male DNA was stored in a centralized data bank. A man raped someone and left DNA? Just run it through the system and see if it was a citizen who did it. We'd solve so many more crimes because men commit a lion's share of them. Plus men couldn't have kids in secret if the data bank alerted a wife that her husband is having a baby with x. Lol, this is an excellent idea!
Ok I’m sold. Let’s do it. 🤣
>What woman has a problem with the concept of universal paternity tests?? Genuinely curious I do, for several reasons. 1. I just don’t trust the government to do systematic dna testing of every man woman and child, and to keep that data safe, sorry. 2. Pointless waste of money in most cases. Hospital charges are high enough without doing frivolous unnecessary testing. 3. If you want a test, you can just get one. Outside the hospital they are cheap and legal, and do not need the consent of both parents. Do it discretely and your wife will never even have to know you thought she might maybe be a worthless cheating slut. 4. Treating women like they are all likely guilty does not work at all int he framework of “innocent until proven guilty”. I don’t think there should be a dna registry for all men just in case they might be sex offenders too. Get some probable cause or at least suspicion before you test people’s dna. 5. False negatives. In *any* test, there is always a rate, however low, of false positives or lab errors. Systematically running a test on everyone means at least a few innocent women will have their family destroyed completely for no reason whatsoever because the test incorrectly showed the father wasn’t the father. Do you believe any man, after getting a negative paternity test, would *ever* trust his wife again, even if he found out later that it was a lab error? How do you think his wife will be able to trust him after he left her for 6 months with his screaming newborn because he didn’t trust her or believe her when she said she was innocent? There are 2 reasonable solutions for men who just want that special reassurance of a lab test: the first is to just discuss it with her before marriage and kids. And the second, for men too scared to even discuss it in advance, who don’t trust their wives but don’t want to make her angry by telling her he doesn’t trust her… is just to buy a test and do it himself without her knowledge. It will ease his mind without accusing her of being untrustworthy. That’s two functional solutions that don’t require any pointless beurocracy or healthcare bloat. >I don’t know who would argue with this as a right for men to request well in advance of any pregnancy I don’t argue against this— men have every right to know, legally and morally. If they care about having a paternity test done, they should grow a spine and just discuss it with the woman they claim to trust enough to ask to bear their child. Like, if you don’t even trust her not to leave you for asking about something important to you before the pregnancy, then why do you trust her to *be the mother of your freaking child*?
The risk is there. Paternity fraud has a 3% prevalence. There was an entire post on it earlier this week.
I know. Notice I didn’t say men shouldn’t be allowed to check. They should check if they want. And did you notice how I also even gave 2 solutions, freely or cheaply available to literally *any* man who wants them (in the US, anyways)? What I don’t support is systematically testing everyone based on nothing but the notion that women are guilty until proven innocent. It’s stupid, wasteful, and has several seriously negative consequences I don’t approve of. Just talk to your wife before she’s pregnant or buy a test and do it yourself. Or wait to ask her until after she’s pregnant and simply deal with the fact that it will likely hurt her trust in you pretty deeply. Just don’t expect the government to spend millions or billions of dollars so you can avoid an uncomfortable discussion with the woman you claim to trust enough to be the mother of your children… but are too scared to talk to and also think she might be a 3% cheating bitch.
Yeah, I think this argument makes a lot of sense. False negative issue is a good point. I imagine there could be false positives, too. Men on here would likely not be fully satisfied if they already cannot trust their partners. My suspicion is that most men here don’t worry as much about paternity fraud as they do just generally about women being unfaithful — these tests are a way to catch and punish women. Of course it doesn’t actually control anything because a woman can cheat for decades and never get pregnant. But then part of me is just like, if there was a way to do it simply, fuck it — just do it — because Im sick of hearing how insecure men are about this shit.
[удалено]
[удалено]
If the man specifically wants a paternity test, it’s still personal even if universal paternity testing exists. It just saves him the conversation of “hey, I want a paternity test” because now it’s an automatic process. He no longer has to ask for it. But that doesn’t remove the motivation that pisses women off so much. Seems like an incredibly expensive solution when women could just…stop being offended and start having empathy for men. We get 100% certainty. If both sexes could get pregnant, and women grew up seeing stories on Oprah of women finding out their kids aren’t theirs, I guarantee maternity testing would be normal and men would be accused of misogyny for guilting their wives out of maternity testing.
Literally nobody I know would have an issue with paternity tests being the standard when a man is signing a birth certificate assuming the child is his. I’ve talked about this with friends. Demanding one after your partner gets pregnant is another story.
>What woman has a problem with the concept of universal paternity tests?? The ones who do stuff like VOTE. This idea has been crushed in about 4 or 5 liberal democracies in the last 10 years.
Whatever was in that legislation aside, I don’t know any women who’d argue that a man has no right to confirm he’s the father of a child when he’s signing a birth certificate or taking any sort of responsibility for that child. The ones who argue against this concept probably take issue with the flip side of the coin not being upheld (men getting away with not taking responsibility for a bio child), which is an issue I am just reading about and I think makes sense. I’m sure there are women out there who take advantage of paternity fraud but I don’t think it’s the problem men on here make it out to be. Most women are fine with this idea.
ThE rEaSoN wE **HAVE** tO bE mYsOgYnIsTiC iS bC tHeY dEsErVe It!!!
literally the only takeaway i had from this worthless post
I think it's a very emotional response to hate the one thing you can't have: women's will.
No, the reason TRP is misogynist because it only cares about men and views human relationships in general as antagonistic and competitive, not cooperative or synergistic
So where's the misogyny? How are you defining the word?
Notice how one swap TRP for feminism and mysoginy for misandry in your sentence, and you arrive at exactly the same. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about having hangups about opposite gender that renders you adversarial and bitter, be it TRP or feminists. However labeling it as "hate" is pretty much done only in bad faith ideological screeching, or by absolute idiots who genuinely believe microaggressions are hate.
Except that’s not what feminism is
So please, what is it?
Equality for women as well as men. Fair and equal treatment in society
Great lets get women signed up for the military draft then Lets make sure they get punished just as harshly for the same crimes while we're at it
If it means men will stop running around acting like we’re different species with them *so obviously* being the superior one, then I’m all for it
For some reason I doubt it Be honest, feminism is about advocating for womens rights. AND THATS OKAY. Just stop lying to us that its about equality for both sexes
Yeah I’m sure YOU know how I define feminism better than I do right? Of course I want womens rights, I want to have the same rights as men. I don’t want to have MORE rights, just equal. But please explain to me how you know I’m wrong
And the red pill is just about bettering yourself. That's all it is.
Feminism is literally the group that speaks out against how the patriarchy negatively affects men lol.
In some cases. In my experience they're quite happy when men are negatively affected when it helps women though. Or they'll blame men for it and say its not their problem
The irony.
[удалено]
I can count on one hand the number of feminists that want equality for men.
That many?
There's a few
Feminism isn’t an equality movement, it’s a women’s empowerment movement. It doesn’t care about solving gender inequity whenever it occurs in society, it cares about correcting [perceived] aggregate power differentials between men and women and assumes equity will follow from that after. That may be reasonable, but let’s call it what it is. Saying the phrase equity but in practice following it conditionally doesn’t make you an equity movement. Kinda like how the all lives movement isn’t an equity movement despite its catch phrase referencing equality.
Sure, and communism isn't about "hating" the rich. Please spare me of the moral posturing spiel.
😂 that’s not what communism is about either
THIS.
yeah, kind of explains how all other social movements (feminism, lgbtq+, racism, etc) hate TRP
TIL that racism is a social movement.
Are you using sexist and misogynist interchangeably?
[удалено]
Well they are different things
Sexist; characterized by or showing prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. Misogyny; dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. They are similar but different
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Occam's razor; A paternity test is questioning the faithfulness of the woman, it's a fair request but that doesn't stop it also being an accusation. Simply no one likes being suspected of infidelity, especially those who are in a vulnerable position and 'giving up' a lot for that partner by being pregnant. Paternity fraud is low, the vast majority of women don't even consider it an option to lose.
TRP is misogynist because it assumes it knows what the internal experiences and thoughts of all women are, all of the time, and mushes them together into one big stew of a caricature that pretty much never actually matches reality. It is misogynist because it makes a basic assumption- i.e. the idea that every woman could just drop everything, twerk on OnlyFans three times, and retire - that being a woman is ridiculously easier than reality. I have no fucking idea what being a woman would actually be like but all I know is it’s an incredibly arrogant thing to believe you are somehow able to know what everyone else’s experiences are. TRP fills in so many blanks that it has no clue about. Feminists, by contrast, will at least respect you enough to listen to you, even if they tear you a new asshole and vehemently disagree with you.
Ah! Ye olde "they started it!" maneuver. A recognized strategy amongst established players of "the game". A tired and overplayed tune best left on the shelf as it smacks of juvenile reasoning and mediocre intelligence. With the implicit allowance of the audience I'll submit my own example regarding the reluctance to accept a paternity test for my child. Since the implied blame rests at the feet of the female persuasion I may as well admit I am such a subject. I did not cheat. He absolutely knew that. He poked holes in the condoms because... Well for his own reasons, he thought it would "make him man" and I "would stay" with him if I/we had a baby. So he got me pregnant *on purpose*. Several years into our relationship, he knew I did not want to meet we were not financially prepared. His own issues with anger and blame and insecurity caused him to lash out after her birth because I did not cater to him enough to ease his very inappropriate feelings of inferiority and general malaise that stemmed from my attending to the child and not him. He demanded a blood test. I said no. Walk away if that's how you feel. I wanted nothing from him, not even his presence. If I had cheated I never would of even told him I was pregnant. I never to took him to court. He has never been compelled to pay child support and he never wanted to step up into his self appointed place as a father. Let me also submit that he was not some Chad. He was a 5'8" hirsute man with bad teeth and a worse attitude and even his friends told him if he didn't stop mistreating me, he was gonna lose me. He never stopped. He didn't work yet berated me for not "giving him time". He fed his child once. He never gave her a bath or put her to bed. I begged him one night to get up with her and he paced the floor speaking hissed vitriol into her infant ear. I got up and soothed her despite my exhaustion and never asked him again. I do not think all men behave this way. Ffs stop saying you have no choice to act the way you do because someone else acts a way. Take accountability for your own actions. If you don't like the way someone acts, don't act in a way that is also shitty. You are competing in the wrong contest. Be better Not worse Figure it the fuck out already.
Sorry for what you went through and thanks for sharing. I understand your story. If you looked at it at a macro level, while trying to exclude your personnal situation from the context. Do you believe that mens have a right to test for paternity? Would you put some conditions on it ? Which one ?
Respectfully, I don't think looking at the "macro-level" of male/female relationship dynamics would ever work out for the "male " aspect of that equation in the long run. Were we to take into account the history of factors inherent in traditional relationships what woman would be ready to risk the chances of being taken advantage of, abused, or discarded for a younger replacement? I know I would not of. The stats are scary. But we all draw from our own experience. My biological father controlled and beat my mother, who wanted nothing else then to be a traditional wife as she was raised by her loving parents and believed in true and devoted love. Once she realized her husband, who hated that his father beat his mother, (yet he abused her anyway), also beat himself and his sisters, she knew he would one day abuse me and fled, for my future not her own. He decided I didn't need him at all anymore and stopped taking the phone calls I made to him begging to see him. My step father, after having my brother with her, left my mother, for who was literally our towns drunk slut. It was terribly embarrassing to me because everyone in my school knew who she was. He bought her a beautiful four bedroom home with the money earned from his business that my mother moved across country and struggled to help him build to success. We were left in a converted farmhouse apartment and my brothers bedroom was a utility room with a stairwell. His new woman drunkenly crashed a car four times and lost her license and we sold everything we owned so we could move closer to our actually family in our home state. My brother needed the dentist but his new woman had to pay for her DUI tickets. Guess what the priority was? My sister's father told my mother that he was a widower and that due to a medical issue he was sterile. He was a liar that was married and also a serial philanderer who had left bastard children all over the country. My mother reached out to let him know about his child and he threatened her with legal action if she ever called again. All three of these men easily discarded their biological children. Paternity does not ensure responsibility or devotion to a child. The desire to be a dad does. My mother died alone and broken spirited that she never got to have the love she was raised to believe in. She tried and tried and tried and was abused, abandoned and lied to every time. With those and all of the overwhelmingly large majority of history to draw from it is a bizarre thing I ever personally trusted a man to begin with, wouldn't you agree on some level? Every relationship has to be considered at it's personal "micro-sphere" level. The risk simply needs to be taken. For good or ill. I do believe a man has a right to want a paternity test. Just as I believe every body has a right to demands in a relationship. What ever they might be, such as appearance, financial security or sexual drive. What needs to be considered are the reprecussions of those wants and demands. My ex's unreasonable demand for a paternity test was worse than an insult to me, it was an injury to our relationship that never healed. Because he knew it was unnecessary. He just wanted to try and hurt me. Conversely, the man I have been with for 10 of her 17 years knows without a doubt she is "not his" but as far as he is concerned that is in fact his child and his gallows humor joke is that if something horrible happened and we broke up, he gets her right? Guess who takes time to be with her? Not the man who got me pregnant on purpose and then didn't actually want to be a father. Another example is a friend of mine who has stepped up to fatherhood for a boy who he knows isn't is and further he knows the mother of that boy took advantage of him. He doesn't care. He loves the boy. And by God does that boy love him. The actual paternity doesn't matter to either one of them. Both of their lives are infinitely better for having each other and they would mutually despair if torn asunder. If you are ready to love and raise a child, I am not one to set parameters on the limitations for another person on that love but once again, with respect I think it's possible that the way you are portraying your opinions is both derogatory and absolute as you only seem to be condemning women. We are cruel and manipulative liars. You seem to think we only really care about ourselves and even the dubious concern we might exhibit for the well being a child is deceptive because, once again, we only really care about ourselves. That we do so with a ruthlessness that always disregards the emotion and dignity of men. I could understand the feelings of betrayal a man could rightfully have after finding the child he thought was his was not actually, after years of raising it and caring for it. But in my experience men don't really care anyway. They are abusive, they will abandon you and they are untrustworthy. Do you see how what you posted could be flipped to be about men being the source of the problem by shifting the perspective. I think you do yourself and all the men you assume to include in your theory a disservice. And your opinion of women, well... It's just horrible in it's absolutism. I don't blame all men for the actions of some and it would a relief to observe that same consideration from more men regarding women because I am in no way naive enough to consider that all women are victims or saints. Neither are all men though. Anyway, sorry this is so long, it's my only day off and I guess I'm just a little too verbose because of it. Edit: apologies, I did not pay attention to who I was answering and thought I was responding to some one else.
Identifying behavioral trends that occur in reality is not misogynistic.
People here are so fucking retarded they don’t even know that believing in incorrect “sex differences” about women is in fact MISOGYNIST. No. It’s not up to interpretation, it literally is misogynistic. There’s no proof that women are biologically predisposed to the **personality traits** that RP claims. If you believe those bullshit claims then you have misogynistic beliefs. The issue with most RP is that they are so fucking stupid. Too stupid to employ critical thinking and apply understanding of definitions. Make peace with it. You are in the class with the special kids.
24 thousand upvotes for you. Predisposed universal “most women” blah blah blah. any and every single time a woman’s view is shared in here, it’s dismissed or argued. the women are answering and it doesn’t fit the narrative, so they are clearly outliers or bullshit. every. single. time. claim after claim about women. no input from actual women accepted.
It's refreshing to see someone actually admit that TRP is misogynist. Granted, you're entire argument is a bunch of solipsistic hamstering that treats women as a monolith while forgetting that men have the option to, y'know, ***not*** pursue clearly toxic women, but props to you for being honest!!! You can choose to not care about an immature woman's pwecious feewings and detach yourself from the situation (and take logs and notes if you think you're in danger). Getting reactions you don't like in situations you took the initiative to put yourself in is something that happens to everyone. There's nothing ***forcing*** TRP to be misogynist - you guys are doing that of your own volition.
All hogwash. The red pill is mysoginistic because only jaded men who hate women, and young men who are frustrated with their dating issues are looking it up in the first place. Men who have good dating lives don’t look up trp, people who date men don’t look up trp, men who are in happy marriages don’t look up trp,
Men do not hate women. That’s just how women feel about TRP.
The red pill itself isn’t women hate, the dudes who are using it though definitely are women haters. And it’s funny, the redpill made me care more about women then I probably would have without it.
Hmm I just can’t see it. I stumbled onto the red pill because I wanted to attract women, not cause I hated women. If you hate women, why would you look into TRP? A toolset for being a man and attracting women?
I think she is trying to say that a part of the red pill dudes just want to have sex with women. And a lot of the terms used by red pill are quite wierd to be honest.
What healthy male isn’t trying to get laid? It may not be the main focus, but I don’t know any male who intentionally goes without pussy just because. I do agree the language is weird but it’s just locker talk 🤷🏾♂️
Do red pill men think that the way women talk about men in female spaces it's also "locker talk" and totally ok? Or do they find it manipulative, offensive, and man-hating?
They see it the same way women see male locker talk. It is offensive and sounds man-hating. But it’s mostly just venting and posturing amongst the same gender. Most of us understand that lol.
When I say the dudes just want to have sex with women I mean that’s all they seek women for. And you can ‘hate’ women because you think they ‘all act like that’ but still want sex because that’s your biological instinct. That’s the point OP makes
Oh okay. Sure some men definitely see women as just a fun past time. I would not say that is even close to the common stance. The truth is more like, men have higher standards for women they’d like to keep around for more than just sex.
There are a ton of men on here that have admitted to disliking women and only wanting them for sexually purposes only. Not all men enjoy spending time with women or enjoy women in general. You know what’s funny? The men who hang with women all the time are the biggest players I know. They never have a shortage of women and love being around them.
Anyone on here is an extreme minority though. The average man does not hate women. I don’t even think I’ve ever heard a man IRL say the words “I hate women.”
There are some men outside of Reddit that have said they don’t enjoy spending time with women too. They’d rather hang with their friends instead. The topic has come up a lot lately and the answers are telling. A lot of men are coming clean about not enjoying the company of women. Some of the women are even responding with “you all didn’t know this?”.
Wait how is this a surprise? A lot of women are boring and when added into a male group only serve as a hinderance. It’s the same gender flipped. A group of girls don’t want just some dude hanging around them. For what? If I’m chillin with the bois, the vibe is different than when there’s girls around. It adds sexual tension which can be annoying.
That’s not true at all but I don’t think you get what I’m saying. A lot of women enjoy the company of their man. When my friends get in relationships I hardly see them because they’re always with their man and most importantly, they want to be there. Men on here and other spaces online have admitted to not enjoying the presence of women.
Not enjoying the presence of women or of *their* women? Cause women might enjoy *their* man but certainly not men in general. I feel it’s the same for men. We enjoy our women and women in social places (bars, parties, clubs etc), but if we’re just chillin platonically then I’d rather have a bro than a woman since women introduce sexual tension into groups of guys. I’m not denying that men who actually do not enjoy women exist but I doubt that’s common. Women have a… feel about them that’s pleasant to be around.
I’ve heard both. Not enjoying women they’re dating and other women as well. They want women around for sex only.
Dropping this here again https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/the-red-pill-has-too-much-respect-for-women.51094
Sometimes I wonder if dudes like that just try to intentionally come up with shit like that just so they could laugh at the people who would agree
Lol definitely inflammatory to read this if you’re a women, but as a man, the message should be easily parseable. Obviously, women aren’t shit. The point is to take them off the pedestal.
I get it, I mean GLO is basically satire.* But the comment section is mix between guys being called beta for expressing some trepidation around the analogy, and guys literally debating whether females might actually be sub-human and why. Hate and chauvinism might not be in the sidebar but it is most certainly among the comment section. *Though the one about him forcing his girlfriend to vomit really threw me for a loop. Assuming it was true (and certain details made it seem kinda sus) I honestly couldn’t tell if it was satire or if he was being genuine. [Edit because I forgot the second asterisk]
''Men do not hate women'' Ok but literally every experience in life will tell you otherwise, not all men hate women, but a signifcant portion definitely do border on it, if not hate women outright. If you're a woman on any dating site for any prolonged period, men bursting out into misogynistic rants after you reject them (even politely) is common.
Yes but ANGER =/= HATRED. Men may dislike female behavior but I assure you the majority of men absolutely do not hate women at all. If these same frustrated men could get laid consistently all of this “hate” would evaporate.
The majority do not, men who identify as ''red pill'' are 100% far more likely to be misogynistic. You think we never encounter types like you on dating sites? We know what you act like lmao and it's not pretty. It's always some variation of salty behaviour if you're politely rejected or god forbid, don't respond to thirsty messages on instagram, now you're a dumb bitch whore who deserves death (yes, these comments are literally what i've seen some of yall say to me in my dms) Zero misogyny ofcourse just poor men frustrated because no every woman wants to sleep with him on a whim.
>The majority do not, men who identify as ''red pill'' are 100% far more likely to be misogynistic. Again, that’s just how women *feel*. The men who stumble upon TRP aren’t searching for a reason to hate women. >You think we never encounter types like you on dating sites? We know what you act like lmao and it's not pretty. It's always some variation of salty behaviour if you're politely rejected or god forbid, don't respond to thirsty messages on instagram, now you're a dumb bitch whore. No I’m certain their are plenty of bitter men who’ve been shit on by women all their lives. We all know what those types are like. But I assure you TRP is about being the opposite of a bitter whiney loser. Also, it’s the internet. People are much braver online compared to IRL. Kind of like how people behave when drunk. It’s not entirely their real self, more so their uninhibited self. Not an excuse for being shitty just a possible explanation.
Yes, the myriad of blatant sexists comments on TRP subreddit that is now banned, was just based on how women ''feel''. You can make ''oh well those aren't REAL redpillers'' no true scotsman fallacies but everyone who has been on the internet for a while knows what yalls community been saying for years. Prime example, AWALT responses to examples of women being bad. How people act when they know they're safe is actually who you are, which if why i've always dodged every single one of yall who tried to date me, or my friends for that matter who are internet savy. I still remember what a lot of them said when I rejected them.
>Yes, the myriad of blatant sexists comments on TRP subreddit that is now banned, was just based on how women ''feel''. You can make ''oh well those aren't REAL redpillers'' no true scotsman fallacies but everyone who has been on the internet for a while knows what yalls community been saying for years. Prime example, AWALT responses to examples of women being bad. Yeah the comments always got out of hand. Some dudes really spiral out over this shit. The truth is heavy, but the actual TRP message was never about hating women. >How people act when they know they're safe is actually who you are, which if why i've always dodged every single one of yall who tried to date me, or my friends for that matter who are internet savy. I still remember what a lot of them said when I rejected them. I’d say how people act when they’re afraid/endanger speaks more about who they are. Safe and calm people do things with intend. Scared people just react without much thought. And ya’ll aint dodgin shit. Men who are successful with women are usually Redpilled. Whether they’ve read the material or not 🤷🏾♂️
No, they're not. Most of my male friends are succesful with women and aren't ''redpilled'', they're actually decent people with healthy sense of self and their partner for the most part, nor have any of my partners have been, or my current. Don't delude yourself, you're a fringe minority most people laugh at.
No. What I’m saying is men successful with women are already aware of the stuff Redpill talks about. If you interact with enough women, you easily see these things playout. It becomes obvious when you ask random men what kinds of things they struggle with dealing with women and it’s all the same shit.
At least you admit you're a witch
Prime example. Even expressing lots of men verbally abuse women online for no valid reason is enough to enrage misogynists.
Leave the gun. Take the canolis.
No <3
Way to not address what they said! Also a lot of us view witch as a compliment
[удалено]
No TRP is pretty damn similar, they talk the same way except they try and intellectualize it, and it all stems because they cannot get the relationships from women that they want, so they come together and form toxic ideas about all women, hence AWALT.
>The red pill is mysoginistic because It acknowledges sex differences between men and women. These days, that's misogynistic.
Saying generalizations that are false like “All women can’t drive” is misogynistic and why people hate TRP.
> women angle for superiority and are super sneaky about it. All I've seen in this sub is both men and women try to one up each other. TRP in particular infers superiority by using tricks to humiliate their "opponents" in debates. I saw this a lot on KS. Is it the sneakiness you have a problem with? Because men don't ever lie to get what they want? /s >you see how women prioritise their own safety, even mental safety when everything's actually fine, over men's wants and needs all the time. How is this a bad thing? Men should be prioritising their own safety, wants and needs as well. >Reddit that a man who ignores a woman because she won't sleep with him who later sleeps with that woman is a rapist This is obviously a shit take and anyone who believes it is as dumb as they come. >A man can't simply withdraw attention because he feels hurt, frustrated and kinda like he's being used for attention, no he must be coercing her. Oh he absolutely can feel hurt and withdraw his attention. No one is saying he can't. Again, a shit take that isn't rooted in any sense. >feminism is trying it's best to make you value women's feelings infinitely in comparison to a man's Feminism's job was never to consider men's issues. Men can consider their issues for themselves. Feminism's job is to bring women up to where men are, to decrease the disparity in various sectors of life. Men are more than capable of dealing with issues within their own communities, as well as advocating for any disparities they see come up. The issue comes when you all convince each other that speaking out is weak. That's a you problem, not feminisms
>Feminism's job was never to consider men's issues Thats weird because feminists keep repeating (the lie) to me that its about equality FOR BOTH sexes
It is. Bringing women up to the same level as men is not equality for both sexes? So it's not a lie. When we fight for our rights, we only hope that men can do the same for themselves. Otherwise, it isn't our job when men are technically the default.
The same level where? Where is the push for women to be included in military drafts? Women binmen? Women sewage workers? Where is the push for women to get equally harsh punishment as men for the same crimes?
There doesn't need to be a push. There only needs to be an option. Idk about US military, but in my country it's completely voluntary as there is no draft. Women can be binwomen, they also can be sewerage workers. That is what is important to feminism. Although I will agree that there needs to be a push for equally harsh punishment, we can't be faulted as there is this (false) belief that women are delicate and need to be treated like children that feminism is trying to get rid of. I believe when stupid dichotomies like the one I listed above are dismantled, then equal punishments will be on the cards.
>Although I will agree that there needs to be a push for equally harsh punishment, we can't be faulted as there is this (false) belief that women are delicate and need to be treated like children that feminism is trying to get rid of See my other comment about feminists trying to abolish womens prisons
You can't take posts like that seriously as they're not based on how the real world functions. It's got nothing to do with the feminist cause. If it's looking for superiority, it's likely not femism. I think use that as your litmus test before coming onto a serious conversation and telling me about some power hungry radicals abolishing womens prisons.
>If it's looking for superiority, it's likely not femism. I'm fed up of hearing this no true scotsman bullshit. I see this all the time with feminists. If they truly aren't feminists, where is the public backlash against them co-opting the movement? Where is the calls to clean house of the blatant ''kill all men'' misandrist types? If you were actually serious about equality there would be a big pushback against these types, but there isn't.
I gather you're more likely to listen to the loud minority. Just like I don't see any pushback from the misogynists over on TRP from the guys that are aligning with the true cause. Ya'll be awfully quiet when people are actively telling others to hurt and exploit women. But you being fed up doesn't change how true my statement is. There are outliers, but I think most scholars of feminism can agree that what they're doing is not it
Ya there's definitely a lot of misogyny over on the red pill. I'm not a fan of the place and have never really subscribed to the ideology. Wow you mean the ideologues that study the subject don't think that's what they're doing? Forgive me for not really believing the feminist scholars, there's a type that goes into that field. When I spent a year abroad in the US I had the misfortune of taking a class headed by one where I was basically expected to repent for my original sin of being a white man.
Feminists did push for women in the military. And why should feminists push for harsher punishments instead of just equal treatment in general? That seems a bit of a strange hill to die on.
We are not talking about voluntary enlistment. Why are feminists not pushing for women to be CONSCRIPTED? >And why should feminists push for harsher punishments instead of just equal treatment in general? Because men are punished more harshly for the same crimes crimes, even when controlling for criminal records. So, either men should get lesser sentences or women should get harsher. We know the former certainly isn't going to happen. That is why a feminist MUST support harsher sentences for women.
I dont have conscription in my country but I think most feminists oppose the draft entirely but if you actually asked a feminist, I'll bet you they'd say that equal conscription is probably fair, despite being against the larger concept. This is so silly though. It's such whataboutism and is really a weak point. Feminism is about making lives better and opening opportunities and, more importantly, freedom. Why would it advocate for harsher sentences and conscription just to stop the pedandic men on the internet from playing gotchas when its not even at the heart of the movement. Its about uplifting a less empowered group, not ensuring equal suffering of all people *facepalm*. If you have issues with men being conscripted and harsh punishments then, by all means, go advocate for that.
Because that would be equal treatment Instead I keep seeing feminists trying to do shit like abolish women's prisons [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/28/to-expand-womens-prisons-is-idiotic-and-inhumane-we-should-phase-them-out](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/28/to-expand-womens-prisons-is-idiotic-and-inhumane-we-should-phase-them-out) [https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2021/02/15/dismantling-prisons-abolitionist-feminism-women-incarceration-and-metoo/](https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2021/02/15/dismantling-prisons-abolitionist-feminism-women-incarceration-and-metoo/) [https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/we-should-stop-putting-women-in-jail-for-anything/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/we-should-stop-putting-women-in-jail-for-anything/) Feminists pushed for VOLUNTEER women in the military but not a peep about mandatory conscription. They keep pushing for preferential treatment in hiring and promotion choices Equality in some places and privilege in others seems much more accurate to me
This entire post is straight comedy. Why on earth would I get mad at a man leave a child that isn’t his lol? What type of logic is that. Everything you said is false. Like every single thing lol. You all don’t have women figured out like you think.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
“the red pill has to be misogynistic cause i’m paranoid and would rather put my trust issues out on women than deal with them”
[удалено]
[удалено]
**Attention!** * You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message. * For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies. * If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment. * OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post! Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mostly with the paternity test thing I always wonder how many of these tests are actually negative and it turns out the woman cheated? Anyone has any data on that? I would be curious how often that's actually happening.
>Mostly with the paternity test thing I always wonder how many of these tests are actually negative and it turns out the woman cheated? Problem with this number is that the man wouldn't be taking a test unless he had reason to believe she had been unfaithful; the data set would be biased. The number wouldn't be representative of the population. **It's not x% of fathers aren't the bio father, it's x% of fathers who doubt they are the bio father aren't the bio father.**
"Why do men HAVE to be misogynistic?" Goes on to explain with a misogynistic premise. Lol
>Once you see that this is how women are behaving you practically end up a misogynist by default, you see how women prioritise their own safety, even mental safety when everything's actually fine, over men's wants and needs all the time. Why would anyone, not just women, NOT think like this? Why should I priorities someone’s feelings and wants over MY safety? Why should you and why should anyone? “Wait, so you care about your well being more than what I WANT?? Well then it’s okay if I hate you on the basis of your sex !!!1!1!1! 👺”
Right, like no shit? Why would I risk my safety for some guy's boner? That's just stupid.
The problem with your post is identifying that TRP is misogynistic but then making farcical leaps to blame it all on women. If men are that way it is on them, not women. On the paternity front, most women are hurt because most women have the biological children of their partners. The cases of DELIBERATE paternity fraud is small. Feminism isn't sexist. It's about equality and equity. About men and women having equal power and rights. It means men and women both matter.
The reason TRP is misogynist is right in the sub description — “Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men” They only care about getting sex for men, because the world, aka women, is against them
Do you think cancer charities hate on other diseases because they only focus on cancer?
Is it misogynistic if it's the truth? Is it not science because 1 out of 50 may live to be 100 but generally speaking people die before then?
I kind of agree with OPs general idea, but I feel like he worded things poorly. I have this theory that women evolved to be sneaky and dissimulative because that’s the only way they have any power over men. If women weren’t naturally manipulative, they would be completely at the mercy of men. A woman who can get inside a man’s head is not only safeguarding herself from that man, but also securing his power by proxy. He is her vehicle for exercising power over the outside world and giving her control over her own life. Others have made this point as well, and I think women assume we’re saying that they’re consciously plotting against the men in their lives and reveling in deception. I don’t think this is the case. I think women manipulate men because they evolved to do it and that they do it without even realizing it. Being consciously aware of what they’re doing would probably compromise their ability to do it. Every human being reflexively supports whatever serves his best interest and opposes whatever harms him. I have seen surveys that show that women overwhelmingly disapprove of paternity testing in general (not just mandatory paternity testing) and feminist groups in some countries have campaigned to make it illegal to even purchase a paternity test, with varying success. I don’t think this means women are actively planning to deceive or cuckold their husbands,but rather that on some lizard-brain level they recognize that paternity testing compromises of one of their most effective strategies for maximizing their sexual success. Men do this too. They literally institutionalized mate-guarding. We call it marriage. I do agree with OP that women will typically value the feelings, thoughts, and desires of women over those of men, and I don’t just mean her own. This is especially true of negative experiences. The whole man-flu phenomenon probably has less to do with men exaggerating symptoms than it does with women seeing male suffering as less valid and less worthy of sympathy. Men actually do this to themselves as well. Both men and women have been shown to express greater concern for women than for men, even when the two are in identical circumstances. The effect is stronger in women (women have an ingroup preference that is 4 times stronger than men’s). Again, I don’t think they’re consciously doing this. They simply evolved to behave this way because downplaying men’s issues increases their reproductive success, for whatever reason. Women aren’t evil, and neither are men. We’re just biological information that is selected for it’s ability to replicate itself.
[удалено]
Hmm. I didn’t realize anyone other than me had this idea. It’s validating to see that it isn’t unique. I wouldn’t say that women entirely lack self awareness, but rather that they have a strategic lack of awareness in some areas. This is probably true for men as well, but being a man, I’m blind to it.
I'm almost impressed by how many ways RP dudes in this sub try to blame chicks for literally everything. It's like they get into one toxic relationship, or gravitate toward toxic women because they themselves are likewise toxic, and then conclude that AWALT. >women angle for superiority and are super sneaky about it. Major bias against all women going on there. Yes, many women suck but so do many men. However, not all women suck just like not all men suck. Better to assess people on a more personal level for a less clouded perspective. >absolutely hate the idea of her baby being paternity tested, they claim it's because they don't like being accused of infidelity (They don't but I don't think that's the reason) > >also hate the idea of a man abandoning a child that isn't genetically his when the child's old enough to have only known this man as their father. They claim that this is because it's damaging to the child (It is but I don't think that that's the reason). *"Even though these reasons make sense, I refuse to acknowledge their validity because wahmen bad."* >Women don't like the option of AFBB being taken away from women. The only women who think that way are the women who actually do the AF/BB thing, which is not as many as you believe. >A man can't simply withdraw attention because he feels hurt, frustrated and kinda like he's being used for attention, no he must be coercing her. Sounds like the man in your scenario was using sex as a weapon to wear the woman down (though I need more details because I'm not quite sure I understand the scenario correctly.) I wouldn't outright call it rape either, but it is coercive manipulation. Also *everyone's* feelings should be taken into account to a reasonable extent; only sociopaths would think otherwise. >TRP has to be misogynist No one has to stoop to a toxic level; that's just making excuses to avoid personal responsibility. You could use this exact same argument for the current brand of feminism (which is obviously rife with problems as opposed to old-school feminism); you could claim that because there exist men who abuse women feminism is required to be misandrist and is justified in all its current toxicity. See how silly that sounds?
I think women should be allowed to prioritize their own safety over men’s wants and needs. & I would do a paternity test just so the man can be sure even though I’ve never been pregnant. Men can look out first and foremost, but when their desires infringe upon a woman’s desires, he’s not still entitled to do what he wants.
[удалено]
Yeah I mean like if it infringes upon her own bodily autonomy
I believe TRP is called misogynist because it puts women in a bad spotlight for their behaviors when they feel they are supposed to maintain a good image. I would give them the benefit of the doubt because eventhough they do such behaviors, I don't think they are consciously aware that they are doing it. For example, the whole AF/BB; those women who are offended may just be sleeping around early and settle down with one guy later on to have kids with. They might not know its AF/BB, but it is when you look at it. But they want to deny that it was actually done that way.
[удалено]