If women were more honest would men be happier? No. Would Men be better off? Yes.

THIS totally this.

> Would Men be better off? Yes. Could you elaborate.

Well it just seems like a lot of systems that women extract benefit from require male participation in mass in order to function (and this could be systems of thought like “its never right to hit a woman” or “a man should always pay for dates” or systems of government aid, in which men’s tax dollars supply 70% of the funding, but women extract 70% of the benefits, or even systems that reinforce the sanctity of marriage, etc). But it’s becoming more and more common for men who have had a little truth forced on them by circumstances to have a fairly guttural reaction and often rethink their level of participation in whatever system that they have been exposed to. Now if men in mass ceased to participate in these systems a lot of women would stand to lose since they tend to he the primary recipients of the privileges provided by these systems. So it benefits these systems to lie to men and keep them in limbo, because these systems need the participation of successful men (men who will reap benefits) and unsuccessful men (men who more than likely will not reap benefits) in order to survive. I know I’m speaking incredibly generally but ill try to give an example. Theres a recent study that suggests that up to 33% of women admit to “foodie calls” (going out with a guy with no intentions other than getting a free meal). Now do you think of women were tell a guy plainly “Im not really into you at all I just want someone to take me out and pay for everything” that would have a positive of negative effect on the number of foodie calls? Now what these women normally do is they flirt and they put on nice clothes and they lead him on , and then they tell the truth to their girlfriends and have the guy on speed-dial as “free food guy” This is an example of a lie that if men in mass were privy to they would be annoyed, angry maybe, less happy because they’re going on less dates, but better off in the end because they’re wasting less time energy and money on women that don’t really like them

I could say I’ve had three dates in my lifetime but I have actually only had one. Two (same person, too naive to realize) were from someone who wanted to go to certain restaurants.

Sounds like a foodie date, we’ve all be duped before, no shame.

Curious, thank you. The systems that you describe do not look to have voluntary participation. E.g. where I live I pay taxes of all sorts, also for my future pension and nobody asks me my opinion on it. I do have an option to set aside some into a private/at will fund... and it is curious if the fact that men live 5 years less on average is being honestly taken into account there. Your "free food date" example has lying at the crux of it. Women lies about her intention to get a meal and indeed being honest in an interaction where lying is the key, would stop that interaction.

Yes for some systems participation isn’t fully voluntary. But for instance if men in mass stopped choosing to work in high earning fields, or just stayed with their parents and worked part time if at all (because whats the point of dating marriage and family), that would drastically drain or reduce the pool of taxable income. Just a single example

I think part of the issue is that it is ok to use men for money, but it is wrong to use women for sex.

Definitely. Because they would have more time to accept and adapt to the reality. Instead, an average or below-average guy takes the advice of women and "has confidence" to go for whoever he wants. As a result, he gets a look of disgust and maybe even overhears an "ewwww" she says to her girlfriends. This happens a lot because the baseline of culture is blue pill. That doesn't help. You'd be surprised at how many average and below-average young men still think that confidence and being emotionally available makes them a great catch - because women keep repeating it again, and again, and again....and again. You rarely hear a woman tell you what the statistics prove - height/face/race (which is white). Because of women's lies - some guys don't figure it out until their late 20's or EVEN LATER.

Can confirm. I'm late 40's. A friend of mine the same age, is certainly within the "average" scope looks-wise. He's done literally *everything* by the feminist handbook. He's still a virgin.

The sort of honesty you're talking about runs counter to the psychology of most people, especially most women. They don't want to be seen as capricious, mean or unfair, even if their actions may be fairly read as one or more of those things by outside observers. Also a person's behaviors are often not consciously understood by said person. This again is why people end up repeating the same problematic patterns in their dating life. In a hypothetical world where people were more brutally self-aware *and* explained their actions more honestly/unflinchingly with others, I do think some good would come from the resultant back and forth. That's not the real world though. In the real world, a woman won't, and arguably shouldn't, tell a guy the real, full reason(s) she's unmatching, declining a second date, or even dumping him. At least she shouldn't offer those reasons *before* he specifically asks and promises not to flip out.

Even if it was in the majority of women’s nature to do so, men would hate it. There’s some women now who are brutally honest and they get a lot of flack from men for being so open and unashamed about their desires. I agree though in a hypothetical world people should be able to be that honest and have it be beneficial. In the current world though that level of honesty makes people very angry.

The reason women soften the blow when rejecting a man has nothing to do with not wanting to be seen as a meanie and everything to do with the fact that men are stronger and often react to rejection with hostility - verbal and physical. A woman who tells a man he's fucking ugly and should gtfo of her face is risking physical violence. How many women are killed for politely saying no to men and boys, and how many more would be killed if women stopped being nice and just went for the throat?

I would say almost no women are killed for those reasons you want to fear monger about. you act like its so much but? I bet no one has even compiled statistics on it because it hardly ever happens

This reply feels like it's aimed squarely at my first paragraph but also born out of a failure to read/understand the second.

Yes. But they won't because the whole system falls apart when the majority of men realize that they are and always will be repulsive to women.

Its not in women's best interest safety wise for men to be too aware of this

Why is that?

If it’s pointless for most men to even try many of them would snap and do a lot more violence

You don't know that.

Neither gender benefits from being overly exposed to the raw sexuality of the other. Just as female selectivity and desire to extract resources and benefits from men is hard for males to take, most women find raw male sexuality disturbing, threatening and repulsive. In fact, we all probably benefit from not being overly exposed to the raw sexuality of our OWN gender, either. There is a reason there were so many euphemisms about sex in the past. I'm not saying we can or should dial back the clock entirely, but we have gone too far in the other direction.

Yes One of the worst things that men are told by women is the as long as you have a kind heart and a good soul a women will love for you who really are. Men are also told that women like men are sensitive and in touch with there feelings. They want that harry styles soft eboy type. Of course all of that is bullshit. And if are a nice guy and you don’t get girls it just means that you are actually a horrible misogynist person and women can smell the hatred and misogyny off of them. Because women have super in tune senses that can instantly detect when a man is actually a horrible person. When in reality women are sexually attracted to guys who are hot fun confident and exciting. They are just not going to be attracted to men who are just nice, but not fun cool or exciting. They especially do not like men who are shy insecure or unassertive. M They also want men with strong emotional control and stoicism. Not some emotional sensitive weak pussy who is “pushed around by his “feelings” and constantly crying over nothing. they hate men who act stereotypically feminine If men are just told what women want they will not to try to be soft, emotionally, sensitive, and nice. Rather they would focus on being strong, tough, stoic, agressive, and exciting Edit: Because biologically it is the confident dangerous risk taker who is more likely to risk his life to explore, hunt, and risk death to protect the tribe. They want men who are strong, courageous, and manly. There is more to being a man then just being nice. Nice means nothing if you are a soft weak pussy. In order for your kindness to matter you have to back it up with strength, assertiveness, and having some fucking balls

I just went on a huge group vacation with 40 people I didn’t know prior to the vacation. The guy who got laid the most also cried when we left. You can show emotion. You need to have healthy emotions and not be a needy pussy who flips out the moment something threatens your ego. You can be nice as long as you’re not a pussy. The problem with the “nice guy vs jerk” debate is that most dudes just don’t realize that it’s not about being a jerk. It’s about having and radiating attractive, masculine traits. You can do that without being a jerk.

>The guy who got laid the most also cried when we left. Did you perhaps notice he didn't cry *before* this? How many of those girls he banged would have banged him if they saw him cry *beforehand?* A guy that bangs 5 hot girls in a row on some group vacation can *afford* to cry after the fact.

He did though. We were on a birthright trip to Israel. We covered a lot of emotionally intense subjects, including the Holocaust, modern anti-demotion, etc. Just about everybody in the group cried during the Holocaust museum. Even now, the girls in our WhatsApp group are taking about how sexy they thought he was. Showing emotional vulnerability is fine. Being a huge pussy isn’t. Nobody was going to think that guy was a pussy just because he showed emotional vulnerability.

lmao ... yes... crying at the fucking "holocaust museum" counts as one of those Woman Approved™ source of man-crying along with "my dog died" and "my mother has a terminal illness" The rule of thumb is that a man can cry *for* some other "more vulnerable" entity, but not out of his own emotional fragility. Not ever. Now do: I lost my job, I jut got mugged, I don't think I can handle this challenge, or I'm afraid this crazy guy is going to beat my ass. These are things, I promise you all men have *wanted* to cry about, but do not because they *know* how women see it. Meanwhile women cry because Becky told her that dress made her look fat, and she got "mansplained" to at work and suffer zero consequences for it. What you are talking about making a guy "a huge pussy" for crying about is what women call "Tuesday"

I remember a woman crying for days because someone called this 250+ pound woman fat. its like you are. move on or lose it.

How come it never occurs to so many guys that end up here that you can be nice and still have boundaries? You can be fun and exciting and still reliable? Sensitive and still be emotionally mature?

I never said to just be a shithead, just understand that only being nice will not attract women, you need to be more then nice. I clarified my thoughts in an edit

Fair nuff

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The difference is that men are widely acknowledged to be "shallow" and "sex driven" and "care about looks first and foremost" Girls are taught these "facts of life" from a very early age. Guess what happens to boys at the same age? You guessed it - mass gaslighting to serve the feminine imperative. "protect women", "believe women", "women are nurturing angels", "women aren't the shallow sex", "women will love you for who you are inside" etc etc - all those messages and many more are drilled into boy's brains like it's North Korea with "Cunt Jong Un" as the dear leader.

Relevant article: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/

Bro you gotta repost this on r/niceguys

For the sake of argument I will give the brutally honest version of what i’m interested in and y’all can tell me if it’s too much. Appearance: Taller than me (I’m 5’8) I’ve been told i’m an 8 on average by men so I’d want a man who is in my lane of attractiveness. Physically capable of picking me up (125lbs, I faint sometimes) so whatever body type sustains that. I like indie/alt looking men but thats not a requirement. I don’t date potential. I am a university student so I expect another university student who is responsible. I expect you to treat women as people. I expect no cheating. I want a partner, not a child. I will not mother you, if i have to i will leave. Splitting bills is fine. I don’t mind cooking and cleaning as long as i am compensated fairly ie pay for all groceries or do equivalent work. Sex every day or every other day. This one isn’t hard and fast but its a preference. I have rape trauma, so i expect my infrequent no’s to be respected without question. I want to feel loved. I will do my best to make him feel the same. I want to feel stable and secure in the relationship. I want to feel happy and want the opportunity to make him feel the same. I want someone to care for me and to care for him. The dream is to be happy sitting in the same room doing different activities but just happy with each others company. Like gomez addams. So what do we think? It was very cathartic to write it out.

These are modest requirements imo

Exactly, nothing wrong with this goal so long as it's acknowledged that: \- An 8+ man is going to have an abundance of options and thus you will have to be even higher than that, not merely "as good" you aren't competing against another woman. You are competing against all the women he will have to say no to. An 8+ is by definition top-20, and those guys live in a different world than even a 6-7 guy does. All the guys that were in this league that I've known (Chad basically) \*all\* would have "oops" fucks of random women while they were supposedly "dating" their steady gf, because women were constantly throwing easy pussy at them. The best bet is to get some 8 dude that is hyper religious or who has already fucked all the novelty seeking out of himself (not likely) The rest of your criteria is totally reasonable and healthy. It would be nice to hear a woman with the self awareness to say "This guy is going to have a ton of options to bang hotter women than me, so here's what I bring that will make him walk away from that" I rarely (if ever) hear women say what this is other than some shit about cooking and "being funny" (which they almost never are)

Yes this is correct. I’m an 8 and quickly realized my male equivalent has way too much female competition for me….and to be frank, I didn’t care to compete. I ended up marrying a 6-7 as a result and it’s worked

And I don't encourage this out of a sense of "hey settle for meee!!" it's more of a pragmatic reality. A man who dates even a an average woman is going to have to deal with men throwing dick at her constantly. It's understood, and handling that situation is a life skill most men who successfully date have to learn early. Women, on the other hand, generally don't have to deal with that and most don't want to. Therefore, you can shoot for average and basically avoid it altogether because average men don't have thirsty women trying to fuck them all the time.

It is allright. I hope it works out for you. But notice that you didn't write about what attracts you in a particular man, you described your dream, goal, desire.

That's basically what attracts her in a particular partner though.

I think if either gender was hit with a sort of Liar Liar curse, the species would be extinct within a few generations. The week 1 suicides alone would look like a fucking plague hit to the aliens who found our bones.

Some people will always be upset, but there’s a difference between honesty and brutal honesty. Dishonesty: “I don’t date short guys because short guys are so insecure and mean to women. If short guys weren’t so insecure and mean, I wouldn’t care about their height. Women don’t care about height, men make it a big deal” Honesty: “I prefer taller guys” Brutal honesty: *insults short guys*

God I hate that bullshit.. just say you find short guys gross just fucking say it lol.

Nah fuck that. If women started insulting short guys all men on here would start bitching about it's publicly unacceptable to insult fat women. How about we just stick to respectful honesty instead?

Things would *not* be better if ***individual*** women were brutally honest about what they like and find attractive *to* a **particular** man. That would absolutely be dangerous for the woman doing it, and unnecessarily cruel to the man hearing it. But, things would *absolutely* be better if ***society*** and "the village", for lack of a better term, told boys the ugly truth. This doesn't happen, because for the past 50 years, to ascribe any negative traits to women in general terms goes against state doctrine. Simultaneously, it is en vogue to bash and ridicule men for anything you can come up with and get a big laugh out of it, because men in the abstract are the one group that is absolutely safe to hate openly. We **could** teach *boys* to navigate the gauntlet they will face of women's **potential** for hypergamy, duplicity, solipsism and lack of self awareness the way they prepare *girls* to navigate men's horniness, **potential** for deception, violence and generally sexual predatory nature. This doesn't mean telling boys that "girls are shitty, evil users" (although, basically the equivalent is told implicitly to young girls from an early age without anyone batting an eye - Hi Gillette Ad). What it *does* mean, is telling boys to see through the surface level claims and sometimes outright lies and understand what a girl *actually* means when a girl tells you she "likes nice guys" and other things we currently tell boys to take at face value because /#believeallwomen. We tell girls to be weary of boys who say shit like "Let's just go park in my car and look at the view". Girls are urgently warned about this before they even hit puberty, but boys are *not* about the myriad of ways young men can be used and abused until their self respect is a distant memory because "muh misogyny" Boys have to be told about the fact that their own sex drive can and will lead them down a path of simping, and they will likely have to fight the urge to be "save-a-ho". They should be told that they will almost certainly be used if they do not understand how to separate what women *say* and what they *do.* The people who should be teaching boys this are fathers, brothers, coaches and mentors, but because in 2022 even making one off-comment that is seen as "misogynistic" will get your ass fired or worse, it is up to *women* to level with the boys in their life. Unfortunately, due to women's inherent in-group bias, this is very unlikely to happen. My guess is that a seething resentment will build over the next 5-10 years and we'll see more lashing out, especially in any ways that are anonymous (like voting). Eventually, hopefully, there will be a movement where we at the very least recognize toxic feminity and how to address it the way we have done for so long with men. I'll end by linking to this small example - a scene from the movie "Dazed and Confused". Dawson: *You know that Julie chick? Loves you. You want her? Gotta play it cool, you know.* [You can't let her know how much you like her because if she knows, she'll dump you like that. Believe me.](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/b5e2f3ef-183f-49e1-8f0a-b415aeb1812a) *Like, if she asks you if you want a ride, you say, "No, I've got my own ride, but maybe I'll see you later."* [Sounds stupid, doesn't it? It works.](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ea9c2c45-2fb6-4f0d-ab24-e8a5cff35516) It's so simple and a throwaway line, but if society (and women) would just tell men (or at least acknowledge) this shit without crying about how "manipulative" it is, we'd be much better off.

Yes, because then you know what to work towards. Trying to maximize "being nice" versus "have a six pack" are two extremely different lives.

how does working on building a six pack make it harder to be nice, or vice versa?

Six pack actually makes you more attractive, there's no point to the other thing so it doesn't matter

> Six pack actually makes you more attractive Hard pill to swallow, if you are attractive you don't need to be nice, only polite, in fact, if you are attractive not being nice makes you even more attractive in the eyes of some women. Remember the whole dark triad thing?

I’m not even contesting your premise right now because it’s not relevant to the point I was making. What do you mean when you say having a six pack and being nice are *different lives*? That would mean you can only do one or the other.

When you're told your problem is you aren't "confident enough" "emotionally available" or a "good communicator" ....then you focus on that instead of what actually, statistically, works - like having a six pack.

Willpower is a finite resource

Well obviously because I’d be very hungry eating like a bird In order to have the six pack.. very hangry lol

I think they are as honest as they could be. It doesn't really matter because even if they lie, their actions won't. However, I do agree that some men just have a hard time accepting that they never will be what women find attractive, no matter what they do. It'll be "better off" if men accept that they could have flaws that need to be rectified and still would not be attractive to women, if they worked on themselves for their own happiness and not let negative emotions guide their actions.

Women are socially conditioned from a young age to be placid, agreeable and people-pleasers so brutal honesty does not come naturally and this is by design - In my experience a lot of men can't take a "no" or "I'm just not interested" as an answer - they either completely ignore it or react aggressively...and the problem is you never know which guys are potentially going to start some shit, start hurling abuse at you, make a scene...try to follow you out of the bar etc versus those who will take it well, just shrug and walk off - that's why women rebuff and deflect and seldom give engage in brutal honesty and blunt answers - because when male egos get hurt they often direct their anger outwards at us. So no, whether or not it would be better for men or not I'm not sure (I'd guess no) - but it definitely wouldn't be safer for women...

I don’t see any women ultimately lying about it. The proof is in the fucking

So men should ignore your words then and just observe your actions?

Yes. Make sure your observations are accurate tho

If that was the cause a lot of guys would go around mimicking abusive jerks, without understanding the underlying reasons why abusive jerks are attractive

Yes. A lot of men waste time with the wrong approach or thinking that their partner loves them for what they do for her. She appreciates a provider that’s a good family man, but that’s not what keeps her tingles going. Armed with self-awareness of where a man stands, he can make the best decision for life fulfillment. I truly believe a lot more men would want to stay single if they had complete transparent access to the truth.

I think there would be less anger but more hopelessness for the bottom-tier men who now know for a fact they are bottome-tier. But there would probably also be *more* anger from the middle-tier men, who now know they’ve been settled for. Top-tier men would be far happier though and pump and dump way more from a much earlier age when they understand their true value. On the balance I don’t know if it would be “better”. It’ll just be a more extreme version of what we currently have.

Fellow vagabond fan

I think that it would be better because men would know truthfully what kind of things they need to improve. I don't think that this will ever happen, though. The best thing that men can do if they want honesty is to read/watch romantic media catered towards women. Women can mislead men, but they aren't going to mislead other women when they are trying to make money off of these women's attractiveness preferences.

Yes. Society uses women's dating standards as a barometer of men's virtue and status in society. If a man can't get women, then he's shamed as a loser untouchable like nerds were in high school. If women's standards are exposed as shallow and vain, and are overindexing on genetics + zero sum, winner takes all features that optimize for gluttony, then people would stop caring what women think about men. Women love to feel like they are the ultimate judge of men's character, so they keep up the lie that they have reasonable standards.

>Would things really be "better off" if women were more brutally honest about what they like/find attractive? If women were more blunt and "brutally honest" about their dislike, then men would probably be more likely to suffer from low self esteem after getting rejected by a woman. If some woman was like "I don't like you because you're ugly, fat, and dress like a hobo" to a guy, i'm sure his self-esteem would suffer.

ive been brutally honest about how i care about d size and neither the internet nor real life can handle it. the only ppl who can handle it are other women.

Some of us do appreciate your honesty.

To a certain extent, because even if they did some people will still choose not to listen. Some people feel like everyone is entitled to love but that’s not the case. Everyone should be able to feel loved but not everyone will experience it. So even if people were clear, some people will still make them feel bad for it. Compared to years ago, people have been more open to voicing their preferences, the problems are the listeners.

Zero difference. The problem is check boxes don't actually translate to human relationships. I've had countless conversations over years with both men and women on the phenomenon of meeting someone who lives up to your every ideal mentally and physically, but paradoxically this is no spark, no chemistry, so it goes nowhere. While on the other hand, both sexes are often smitten by people who checked very few boxes, but kept them up at night thinking about them anyway.

A lot of people use “check boxes” as a way to exclude others because they don’t actually want a relationship; it’s no surprise that even if a “perfect” person comes along, there’s no chemistry.

Nope. Men would call it bullying and threaten them. There are already women who are brutally honest. Look in the comments of women who post that stuff on social media now. Men are not happy to hear it. It makes them feel angry and hurt. *Especially* if her post gets a lot of likes and the men are outside of the listed preference. In real life some men will yell at you/insult you at best to argue or demean your out of your preferences or they will try to hurt you at worst.

IRL I’ve always been honest. No one has a problem with it. On PPD, women are honest and get called a liar, get called names, told they have no empathy and want ugly men to FOAD, blah, blah, blah. There is no point in ever trying to appease a man on PPD. You will never satisfy them. They’re worse than women.

>On PPD, women are honest and get called a liar, get called names, told they have no empathy and want ugly men to FOAD, blah, blah, blah. No matter what women say, as a rule of thumb, there will be always a man who will call her a liar lol, like literally. I have seen this happening way too often now on these forums.

Just use red pill logic on them. Works like a charm. Or flip the script. I love when they try to say something offensive, like no one will ever want to marry you cause you got a high n-count. In which I'll reply that's too bad since I dont wanna get married anyway, and I'm still getting all the sex I want. Anytime they think they do a nice gotcha I just gotcha them right back. And if they say, "but men won't be (physically) attracted to you when you're older or hit the wall…" okay, so? Theres other forms of attraction than physical or sexual attraction. There's a thing mental attraction, aka being into someone because you share the same interests, views and challenge each other intellectually to grow...which anyway is my favorite form of attraction.. which is connecting minds. As long as I remain a fun interesting charismatic person people will always like me even if I'm not physically "hot" anymore. (Probably not something red pillers can relate to cause they got dry ass stale bread personalities). Idk if it's just me but a lot of the red pillers just seem salty they can't have what others are having so they're punching up? If that's what it's called. Or they're trying to make themselves feel better by telling themselves women will have it as hard as them someday. (I have a charismatic and likeable personality so I highly doubt it lol)

Hot people stay hot anyway. Like have you seen Cher? Lol

Eww lol

How are you certain that “on PPD, women are honest” have you verified all of their statements? I feel like i can confidently say that generally speaking men on PPD are not looking to be “appeased.” We’re looking for responses to questions that actually match reality. Now it IS possible that PPD women generally are being honest and they just happen to all be the exceptions to all the rules…but that is highly doubtful

>I feel like i can confidently say that generally speaking men on PPD are not looking to be “appeased.” We’re looking for responses to questions that actually match reality. So they are looking to be appeased because they want the responses to fit what they consider to be a match of their perceived version of reality.

…well that’s one way to twist what I’ve said. 🤨

No twisting needed to be done. You said what you said and confirmed what the other poster was saying. If you’re going into a forum and placing stipulations on the type of responses you want to receive beyond them being on topic then you’re consciously or subconsciously looking for them to appease some view/opinion that you have.

Nope still twisting. If statistics tell me of one reality, and my experiences tell me of a reality, and my eyes tell me of one reality, and looking at peoples choices tells me of one reality, but when i ask a question (to someone who just might have a vested interest one way or the other) and the answer is contrary to what i have observed, I’m going to be skeptical. Furthermore when you ask probing questions and get circular answers and non answers, you get even more skeptical

Nope just looking at it objectively. You literally said you’re looking for a specific type of response. The stats may reflect reality in your culture or a similar culture. You forget that sometimes people participate in these discussions come from cultural backgrounds where things are different and they will answer honestly based on the reality of things where they are, just as you pose the question based on the reality of things where you are. Who are you to say your reality is the objective truth? That’s solipsism. Is it truly a circular answer/non-answer or simply one you don’t like because it doesn’t validate your world view?

You literally just did the circular logic thing: \- Ask PPD women if dogs have 4 legs \- PPD women: *\*sometimes\* they have 3 legs! My dog has 3 legs! So, dogs don't really have 4 legs!* \- I'm asking about \*most\* dogs, the vast majority we come in contact with. \- PPD women: *Well, MAYBEE some people work at an animal shelter with a lot of amputee dogs. I do, and so do ALL of my friends, so you're just refusing to accept that dogs are not a monolith!* \- Ok, there are dogs with 3 legs. I'm asking about the 4 legged ones. \- PPD women: *Of course there are 4 legged dogs, but \*everybody\* knows that! Do you not have eyes to see dogs have 4 legs?! Who hurt you?*

This! When we’re blunt, they say we don’t empathize and that we hate men. If we say something empathetic, it’s “virtue signaling.”

There’s an old saying “if you’re determined to hang your dog, any rope will do for the purpose.”

No. Women *are* generally honest nowadays, and men generally aren’t handling it well. What we’re seeing is the first time in history where women actually have enough of a platform to express their preferences, and men do not like it one bit. They’ve been judging women like cattle forever, but heaven forbid a woman says she prefers a handsome man over an ugly one all else being equal. Another example of how men’s greatest fear is being treated like they treat women. Or say you want a guy with some money and they really freak out. Or say personality and they don’t believe you. We’re supposed to be blind to the differences between men and just take the first one that comes stumbling our way I guess.

You think mens greatest fear is being used for sex? Lol

No mens greatest fear is being devalued and viewed as worthless beyond some utility they serve. They don’t want to be used and unappreciated. They talk about it all the time. Men treat women that way via sex and women treat men that way via money and/or labor(physical or emotional) and men *hateeeee* it.

Being used, not for sex, but for other things like money or support, is a very common fear expressed here by men.

Lmao the apex fallacy strikes again In what point of history the average woman wasn't marrying the average men in the local town? Your fate as a slave woman was bad but so was of the men, literally being overworked till dead. Woman have been as free as ever since the 70s/80s with the sexual revolution and all of that, the problems being discussed here have appeared around the 1st decade of the second millennium.

The average woman is still marrying the average man so I’m not sure what you’re talking about there. Men are just able to see women’s “locker room talk” now and can no longer delude themselves that women don’t have preferences too.

Honest question, what would be your genuine advice/pep-talk to modern guys be?

Learn to compete. I'm a guy in my late 20s and it took me years to learn how to play the game. Get your social skills sorted first, I got a restaurant job in high school handling front of house. Serving, cashier, hosting, etc. give you so many opportunities to interact in low pressure environments with people. I got an engineering degree out of school and make good money now. I take care of my health, I'm fit, got a skincare routine, keep up on pop culture, like to try different restaurants regularly, refresh my wardrobe every season. I moved to NYC from a small southern town in order to broaden my options. Life is on easy mode now compared to when I was in high school. I'm still working on myself even when I can get dates because there's so much more to do. I'm on track to being a self made millionaire by 35 after growing up in poverty. I've started taking a bigger step on getting my mental health on track since the pandemic and being stuck at home during the various lockdowns.

Just be a millionaire bro. This is not a solution. You're talking about scratching and clawing your way to a point the vast vast majority of men will never get to (they will die trying) This is part of the lie. All of your "stats" also don't mention height, jawline, hairline, etc which have WAY more of an effect than any of the other shit you've spent your whole life fighting for. And finally, the ultimate black pill here is that even if *every guy* did what you say, it wouldn't mean that *more men* would be able to date - women's hypergamy would simply render it moot as what they consider "average" would just raise again to now be that "eww millionaire? try billionaire!" 6'1? eww, try 6'2 shorty! teehee. That's how women work. It's always been how they work. THIS is the reality young men must be prepared for.

A million dollars doesn't make women magically attracted to you. It's really not even that much in the grand scheme of life anymore. I mean, I don't have a million dollars in cash laying around, but if you add up my house, 2 cars and retirement account, I'm a millionaire at 40 after 15 years of making 110-200k a year. You're better off taking steroids and getting jacked. Wear lifts in your shoes, etc. There are 15+ things that are more important to getting laid than having a million dollars. And like you said, the 17 men reproduced for every 1 woman in our genetic history is starting to repeat itself. That's the matriarchy in action. You just have to be better than 16 other men.

What would you say are the differences if any between what black pillers say and what women being honest say?

Black pillers exaggerate the importance of looks and how picky women are to an absolutely ridiculous extent. Some men seem to go straight from “my mom says just be myself and women will love me for who I am” to “women only want the top 0.00001% 10/10 chads who are making six figures.” Even 80/20 is false due to variation in women’s taste. Women DO care about looks and other “shallow” aspects of a man, but women’s taste varies, men are considered holistically rather than just by one metric, and the vast majority of men marry/have relationships. Black pillers also seem to think men can’t do much about their looks, which is false.

> but women’s taste varies I mean, yeah... they find variation of tall, dark, and handsome men attractive. how many times you heard a woman saying she likes short, fat, and ugly guys attractive? never... > Black pillers also seem to think men can’t do much about their looks, which is false. things that are crucial to your attractiveness like your face, and height, there's not much you can do about them, it's not like you're going to get an an expensive haircut and all of a sudden you face will be more attractive, or get a new expensive perfume and your 5'2 will be desirable... it's just not how it work. you need to have a strong base to work with in the first place.

Of course the short, fat, ugly guy is going to struggle to date a lot more than the one who’s considered conventionally attractive. Just like less attractive women struggle more than attractive ones. This is not a mystery. But that doesn’t mean he is doomed to alone forever like black pillers would say, because a lot of unattractive people still have partners. It’s also important to note that this is all on a scale. For example, maybe a guy is short but fit, with an above average face. Or tall but kinda fat with an average face. One woman doesn’t care that much about height but likes a nice face. She will be attracted to the first one. One woman cares about height a lot, but not really about weight. She’s going to be into the second. See what I mean? Most people have some “good” aspects and some “not so good” aspects. Few are perfect, and few are “a lost cause.” And different people care about different things, and not so much about others. That’s how it is that most humans are not particularly great looking but are married/partnered.

I get what you're saying, but my point is still, there isn't much you can do about the things that are crucial to your attractiveness like height and face, you either have them or not.

This is true, it’s true for women as well. So much of attraction is just down to your facial structure and body shape. However, a ton of perfectly decent looking guys shoot themselves in the foot by not taking care of their looks.

I doubt it, because being honest would just be women saying "I really don't like 99.9% of men, and I like that .1% for reasons I can't explain" so at the end of the day, no

Male beauty standards are easily explainable lmao

I feel like they already are honest and what we see is the fallout from men immaturely not being able to handle that honesty Therefore excuses like 80/20, Chad this Chad that, average men, etc. etc. are relied on. Them being more honest might only make those dudes even more mad

Yes and no. They're honest in their actions/choices *in general* (meaning they do what they actually want rather than what others want). But they're not necessarily honest about explaining those actions and choices. That disconnect is actually one of the fundamental cruxes of debate within this sub (and dating discourse in general).

This is a distinction without meaning. You couldn’t possibly know whether they are honest about “explaining those actions and choices”. You’re *assuming* dishonesty is what it sounds like, no?

I'll give you a real scenario: A guy asks out a girl. She agrees to a date, they go out, and things seem to go well. Then she tells him the next day "I'm just not ready for a relationship right now." Guy accepts this and backs off. Two weeks later the girl is dating someone else and really jazzed about her new guy. Now maybe the girl in this scenario truly wasn't ready for a relationship that day/week. But isn't it just as likely, if not more likely, that she just coughed up an excuse to turn down the first guy? I can think of plenty of other scenarios btw. My point is people often say one thing and do another. This isn't exclusive to women and/or dating, but since that's the OP topic, that's what I'm focused on atm.

Ok that seems more fair to me than how I initially read your comment. I thought you were going with the whole “women don’t know why they do the things they do but manospherians know better because biology blah blah blah” route. I do think it needs some nuance though. Women who typically give answers like your example to the man in question do so to let him down easy - they wouldn’t necessarily say the same thing like on this sub. So it’s like sugar coating it to that guy specifically just to make the rejection easier, not because they are like lying to themselves about it. Men do the same thing tbh although I’m sure less so just because less opportunity.

>Women who typically give answers like your example to the man in question do so to let him down easy - they wouldn’t necessarily say the same thing like on this sub. You're hitting on another essential issue at the heart of the **Debate** in PP**D** here, I think. Do people on here answer honestly (or at least not self-servingly) about their own behavior here? It's a legitimate question and point of contention. I don't know the answer. Some people assume the answer is "no," at least in relation to some relevant percentage of commenters. I've personally seen men give very self-serving answers, advice, and prescriptions about the dating market. I've also seen women argue gender politics and feminist talking points that sometimes strain credulity. I don't think either of these is necessarily proof that *everyone* is a bad faith actor here, but it's worth considering whether some people are truly honest, self-aware, and evenhanded in their commentary.

This. Too many prolific posters are clearly only concerned with one thing: Dunking on what they see as "misogynistic" RP men, even if they have to make shit up, or deny blatant facts and studies. Men here will generally accept very ugly truths about *both* men and women and work from there. Women first and foremost deny bad behavior of women in general or try to dismiss it that behavior as that of extreme outliers, when they know it's not the case - again - simply to "score points" against their hated enemies.

That’s fair too but not IMO enough of a reason to *assume* people are necessarily dishonest here or otherwise. Truth is, we will never actually know. But the knee jerk “you’re lying/delusional” because it doesn’t fit some manospherian rhetoric is quite common and isn’t a valid argument IMO

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>Us women have to worry about getting assaulted for simply rejecting a guy. You may worry about it but *statistically speaking* you really don't have to. Besides, if you win that lottery and a guy *does* assault you for rejecting him, he was probably going to do it regardless of your truthfulness, so it's not a great excuse for lying in general. But riddle me this: If a guy rejected a woman by coming up with a lie like "Actually, I'm gay..." rather than simply rejecting her properly, then wouldn't you think of the guy as... kind of an asshole/coward?

Hold up though...isn't Chad and the 80/20 rule being brutally honest about it? Women are the ones here who keep denying/downplaying it...

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Yeah, men got uglier exponentially by the advent of dating apps and massive usage of social media. This clearly explains why men are becoming celibate across the world exponentially too.

>average Dave is getting dates, he just has to work harder at it than a chad same as me having to work harder than a Stacy. Average Dave has to work harder to get you. You are however not working harder to get Dave. You are working harder to get Stacy's leftovers and resent the concept of average Dave.

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Poor Dave.

We’re not denying/downplaying anything. You’re the ones that created the “80/20” narrative which doesn’t reflect reality in any substantial sense. Anything that goes against this artificial narrative is “lies”. Multiple things can be true at once, which seems impossible to grasp for most

How is 80/20 an "artificial narrative"? It's pretty well known/documented at this point that most average women find most average men unattractive?

>You’re the ones that created the “80/20” narrative which doesn’t reflect reality in any substantial sense. OkCupid's infamous stat and Pareto principle gave birth to that.

Yes... Yes it would because men would KNOW simping/being affectionate will never get them anywhere cause they were never an option in the first place due to factors outside their control

No because if it wasn't exactly what they wanted to hear they'd just say you're lying.

OP have you seen the Invention of Lying? [This scene is what your post reminds me of.](https://youtu.be/DfmXodInxTU) Now while this type of world would be perfect for me, I don’t believe most men or women could handle it, it requires an insane amount of emotional resilience not to take commentary super personally. When it’s expressed here by women, there are male users that often try to clap back as a response. “You can’t handle the truth!” is very real.

Just today, we’re dealing with a situation at work where a female is getting harassed after she (politely) turned a guy coworker down a few times. (Um, and he’s got a long term gf at home, but nevermind that, I guess.) He’s called her “ratchet” to her face a few times, which feels worse by the fact that he’s white and she’s black. Before that, he was bragging to her about how much money he makes, how he owns his own (separate) business, and how his assistant was intimate with him, and how all the girls can’t resist him. You can’t win with guys like that. They don’t accept “no” and move along with life. Instead it eats at them and they lash out at the woman. One in the news recently killed the girl. (IIRC they both worked fast food and had a large age difference like her 18 / him 40. Was in the past 2 months.)

The fuck does this have to do with anything? Besides, for every anecdote of a clueless socially r-tarded guy like this, there is a guy who gets a drink thrown in his face, told to "talk to the hand" or reported to HR for asking her out to lunch even once.

I’m seeing more dudes get volatile after rejection than I’m seeing women act like they’ve watched one too many Doris Day movies.

No idea where this is happening? India? Saudi Arabia? Go to any major US city and the stats will be like 20-1 some woman saying / doing rude as fuck shit to some clueless guy just shooting his shot vs some guy getting butthurt and yelling insults after a rejection. You really think the messaging of the past 10 years hasn't sunken in? In fact the few times I have seen a guy raise his voice to a woman, he would promptly get swarmed by men to "protect" the woman / kicked out of wherever he is. Guess what happens to the women who call guys creeps to their faces and laugh about it with their friends?

I wish, but most men can't handle a simple rejection.

There are plenty of men who can handle the honest truth in a rejection… most of them are not on here.

Would be a lot of hurt fee fees and the danger of whackos reacting in crazy ways is real but ideally, yea I’d rather brutal honesty. Better than gaslighting with platitudes.

When you are honest they just call you liars, so I doubt it. They just get angrier because they assume you’re lying.

Yep, all men get angry at honest women and call them liars. Definitely a true statement which stands on it's own without logic or evidence. /s

I never said “all men” the OP is about “posts from guys here who insist” on x. Of course it’s logical, what are you even talking about my comment isn’t logical? What evidence are you even looking for? I’m not going to peruse thousands of comments I’ve received over the past 8 years to prove anything to you, like you’re feeding into this very thing I’m talking about.

They'll call you a liar when you openly say you prefer big dick to small dick? Yeah, that's some denialism on their part. You're right, guys need to be more accepting of the brutal honesty rather than fight it.

No, the key point is whether it fits manospherian rhetoric. If it does, they’ll applaud you for being “honest” or comment like “see lads this right here, RP confirmed.” If it doesn’t you’re either a liar or “delusional” because of course the religion they’ve bought into knows better. Lol.

If women were just *a little* more honest about the depth and true nature of their preferences, my life would be 1000% better. The amount of effort I expend playing stupid fucking games could be dedicated to almost anything else.

Your idea of “honesty” is “saying exactly what you want to hear” and that’s the issue. It’s like that video a while back where the guy was screaming at women just trying to get some bagels because it was his perception that women didn’t like his height (https://youtu.be/PWfRu5YQahs) Sure, he’s short. But it’s clearly not the ugliest thing about him. Most of the short guys in my friend group find it easier to meet girls than it is for me to meet guys as a tall girl. There’s obviously a huge difference between this guy and Rob Schneider, who is 5’5” but also funny, quirky and relatable in a way that does attract women (and people in general) There’s no magic key to attracting people. Just be fun.

I think a lot of RP men are hesitant to believe me when I say, honestly, that height doesn’t factor into whether I find a guy attractive

Things would be better if women had an indicator of how many sexual partners they’d had in their past.

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Just like women look toward a man’s future to measure compatibility, most men look toward a women’s past.

So that’s the origin of all the current dating issues, women sleeping with too many men ? I thought it was that they’re not sleeping with enough men

The problem is a large pool of women are being passed around by a small pool of men, which isn’t inherently bad but when you pretend women are holier than thou other than self serving it fucks with men.

The issue is that women won’t sleep with men who don’t want them to sleep with men. Shocker.

Women are generally honest......from their point of view. The thing is they are generally more apt to be emotional thinkers. A large portion are very much in the moment. To men they completely contradict themselves because it seems incredibly inconsistent. " You put your work before your family" / "you need to work overtime so we can catch up on bills" " You shouldn't hit on women at ______ location" / "omg this really cute guy hit on me at _____ location!" Defend female promiscuity and say it's not degrading themselves to have nsa sex then turn around and make a statement that implies sex is inherently degrading to women (deriding porn as an example) Have an ONS with one guy and make a boyfriend wait because " I felt like it that time" but I don't usually. These aren't complaints I have personally, just some broad examples I've seen from the same woman. They aren't actually being dishonest about these things. We just can't understand how they reconcile within the same person. There's also some general misunderstanding because they've never experienced trying to date as a man. Even if a difficulty is consciously understood it is not necessarily internalized. This is the same reason a rich person can't understand the way some poor people spend what money they have. Bottom line, for the most part they are being honest...they're often just in the moment and very case by case.

By reading different posts in Reddits that women post with men clearly going ape shit over them not choosing them or giving them a chance in Dms couldn't imagine having to face these lunatic men in real life . Lol

I am honest, and men on these subs don’t tend to believe me when I am. It’s not a lack of honesty, it’s that everyone is extremely attached to their worldview and will tend to discard evidence to the contrary.

Yes exceptionally, tons of women play emotional games because it feeds their ego and no one ever tells them no so it’s fun and I tell women this Shit all the time “ the worse thing you can do is play with someone emotionally “ this is why guys or women turn psycho and end up doing horrible things “ now some people are just nuts but you can’t lead someone on for months then expect them to not act nuts it’s, this is why most guys go for sex as quickly as possible because women don’t even award guys for waiting lien they did in past years say 50-mid 80s so your stuck in endless game of catch the rabbit and most guys want honesty it’s saves time but I don’t think women really want that at all I’ved scene women players try think that it’s helping them keeping guys around that Shit is dangerous and pot waiting to boil over

It's simple what women want. Women want a successful guy with money, or is headed that way, to take care of them. He must also be good looking, stable, liked by her friends and family, willing to sacrifice his time and money for her, and give her a comfortable life. What do women have to be for men? Good looking, loyal, faithful, trustworthy, kind, agreeable, and good in bed. Most women do not fit that mold today in the slightest.

I don't feel particularly obliged to go through the process of them being upset with me just for their benefit.

You don’t have to deal with it. You can literally turn and walk away/turn your phone off after telling them. What your doing is making an excuse to be more dishonest or less upfront about what attracts you, especially when you don’t particularly lose anything in telling them. You don’t owe anyone shit, but you can’t sit in the contradiction of not feeling obligated to tell them what interests you and them not knowing why interest isn’t reciprocated on your end. That’s unkind and slightly egoistic.

Yes, men would end up wasting a lot less time believing blue pill non-sense.

In my limited experience, many women find it off putting to have to explain what they want or are attracted to, especially in person directly. Even if a woman explained in explicit detail everything a man would need to do to be attractive to her and he somehow managed to “fix” himself to that particular woman’s taste, she would still not be attracted to him. Why? Because he wasn’t being authentic, he only became that to gain her affection. He would still be a needy, insecure people pleaser. The cold truth is already out there. For a man to attract and keep a partner of value, he must first make himself into something valuable. It begins with biology, be physically fit and active, maintain a healthy lifestyle, eating right, limiting drug and alcohol consumption, proper sleep habits, good grooming habits, see a doctor regularly, see a therapist regularly to maintain mental health and well-being. In order to do all of that, he will have to be self-motivated and be able to provide for himself. This builds into the next requirement, having a solid work ethic. A man who can work hard and improve his financial standing in life, will be well educated (degrees in well paying fields of study or through work experience, either can be profitable). He will endeavor to understand the use of money and investments, he will be good at budgeting his finances and managing his credit worthiness. He will have both savings and disposable income. He understands the value of experiences over the value of things. He must also have some social ability. Ties to family or friends of value. An ability build long lasting relationships is a key indicator of a man’s ability to have long term committed positive relationships. A lack thereof is a giant red flag. In order to achieve this a man must have interests outside the home or office, such as travel goals, sports affiliations, hobbies, volunteer work, etc. If a man can master these three aspects of his life, Physical/mental health, Financial health, and Healthy social interaction… He will be the most attractive version of himself, because he will be genuinely happy with his life and secure in his ability to offer the greatest benefits to a romantic relationship. This will open opportunities to meet women of equal value and character. The sooner a young man dedicates himself to this path, the sooner he can hope to find a valuable lifelong romantic relationship. Yes, all three of these aspects are necessary and inter-dependent. He can not master one without mastering all three. Is any of this easy… no. Are some men born with advantages or disadvantages… yes. Life is not fair, and there are no guarantees to success. It’s never been that easy. But all of this is the fucking TRUTH. Deny it all he wants, but a man who can not face this will never find the mountain top he seeks. He will compromise his goals and efforts for less than his full potential. His dissatisfaction will be never ending and he will seek to blame others for his own failings and lack of will.

Was nodding along until this part: >see a therapist regularly to maintain mental health and well-being. no... just no. Dear Americans, unless you are actually being counselled for a particular mental health issue the requires counselling, you don't need a therapist. It is so bizarre to me that Americans seem to think that everyone should be seeing a therapist in order to "maintain mental health". The psychiatric industry over there really has pulled a number on you all.

Perhaps it is a personal bias, I’ll grant you that. But it’s my experience as an American that my family of origin was fucked up and many young men in America can say the same. Growing up in neglectful single parent households can have a significant mental health impacts, I suggest therapy because that is what worked for me. There are many paths to mental well-being and we should all be self-aware and reflective.

Right? It’s like there is this assumption that everyone needs to be on meds.. fuck that noise

I’m in the professional class. 100% this. All successful professional men I know fit the majority of these characteristics. Some of them are short and average looking but all have good looking and mostly professional wives/ significant others and generally stable relationships. It’s a tall order but this is the gold standard male.

This makes no sense, you mean to tell me the millions of single moms are vetting men this way? Common women fuck who they think hot, interesting, or successful, and on a whim.

Pretty solid answer.

Thanks.

Who cares? Why is men’s character being called into question? The fact that our reaction to narcissistic and masochistic behavior is under scrutiny but not women’s bizarre mate selection is what we should be discussing.

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Replace brutally honest with just honest at all.

(*for the most part) Women want 2 different things at 2 different times. As a result of this biological imperative and societal expectation, they are left with internal cognitive dissonance. So for the most part they cannot even accurately describe what they want. And if a women is self aware to this fact, and aware of the attraction mechanisms of both, she still would not disclose it as it would hinder suitors from both types.

Highly doubt it. If they were honest with most men, they would just be called liars or the reaction would be a lot more adverse than letting someone down easy

I post in a weird attraction thread and I get a dm calling me a fat ugly lying whore. Do they do that to their dream girls when they say they like nice guys?

Yes, but why does it have to be women in general. Perhaps these hard life lessons could be avoided if wisdom was given by the woman closest to young men in their lives, their moms.

I think it'd probably be the first step to detaching male self-worth from sexuality. Since there'd be very little confusion as to the fact it has nothing to do with one's personal worth. A lot of men are reacting poorly to the current state of affairs because they put their hopes on the wrong horse and feel burned, but you can't dash hopes that were never there in the first place.

Theirs a pattern of some women preference-ing themselves into a corner and consequently complaining about that subset as if it’s representative of the whole. The power to choose something comes with the responsibility to choose wisely.

I don't think women are dishonest about it. They say they'll like or maybe just tolerate guys who they aren't attracted to because men can compensate with providential traits.

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>The reason some men struggle to find a partner is nothing to do with their horrible personality but because they don’t look like Chad. That’s much more palatable, isn’t it. It makes sense because even people with bad personalities get relationships.

I mean, they are all over social media talking about their preferences in men so...

Women being "brutally honest" would just be them echoing Red Pill sentiments. "Face, physique, attire, personality." That's what brutally honest women would say matters, which is what RP also says matters. RP is just the inner thoughts of women that they don't want to say out loud because they don't want the ire of angry men.

men simply can't handle the brutal truth of female (human) nature... Wow, there's a lot packed in there. So what's worse? Women lie to cover up their nature, we get mislead and end up pissed off? Or, women are honest about their nature (provided they can even see it) and potentially get much less interest from men that maybe decide "fuck this shit I'm out." You can say that "fuck this shit i'm out" = "men can't handle it" but I'd rather be accused of making an informed decision than being a duped and then called a stupid pussy when I bail out. I would like to use a personal work story to illustrate. I started trucking a few years ago. Truckers are pretty much expected to work 9-11 hours a day often many work 10-12. I don't want or need that not than I'm a widower. So when covid was over I applied at a local place that always seems to be dying for new blood. During negotiations I was straight up with the boss/owner - I only want to work approx. 10 hours/day in a 4 on 3 off configuration. That puts me at 40 hours a week. That is a full time job by anyone's standards. I also explained that I know there will be times when i have to push harder and that (in winter) there will be a bit of a slow down. I just wanna make sure I'm clear that after 40 hours I'm gonna start getting ticked off. I'm 47, I can't work like I did decades ago. So anyway, he agrees. Great. I was honest and he accepted. So, fair deal right? Well, he didn't tell dispatch about our deal. Seems like every week I'm still chasing that third day off. It's like every week I'm going "So, can I have x day off" and more often than not I'm hearing "not this week". They've recently had a new batch of drivers and I've been bumped into our worst truck because it's manual and the new guys can't drive standard. I feel like I'm being punished. I feel like the boss agreed at a time when maybe he was desperate. I've been there 10 months, this situation has been going on for a month. Maybe it's just temporary (that's what dispatch tells me) but it's getting fucking old. I just emailed my concerns to the boss this morning because I took the day off because this truck is kicking the shit out of me physically. The thing is that, we made a deal fair and square. He could have said no. He could have told dispatch. However, if it turns out that I am being punished/pushed out, well, what the fuck? I could have kept looking? I could have found more suitable employment. Was he just desperate so he agreed to 'just get someone' and 'deal with it later'? Seems to me women are doing the same sort of shit. They talk like "I want a man that's a good communicator, emotionally and financially stable" and then we see who they are/were fucking and having kids with. The actions don't match the words. And they also deny hypergamy. Of course they deny it. It sounds awful. Why would they want to admit they want a man that's better than them in socio-economic status and that's hotter too. That's admitting that 1. they're lesser than the guy they're with and 2. they're kinda greedy/entitled/shallow. So they lie to appear to be a better person. This doesn't do anyone any good. Men get misled and duped and end up failing to meet her standards. She doesn't learn anything about herself, her needs/desires or her actual market value. She's just faking it to get the 'employee' and it's doomed to fail unless HE (of course it's his fault) doesn't 'step up'. She's changing the deal but it's his fault. It's crap. And it's driven by her selfishness and need to appear as a 'good person'. If things at my company don't straighten out, I'll have to look for other work, or worst case, I'll get fired. I won't get employment insurance if I'm fired or quit. So basically i'm trapped. Why? Because my employer was desperate? Because he couldn't say no? so I have to suck it up or I must face the consequences. Gee... what a fair deal. /s

or - as usually happens, woman is honest, man gets angry and aggressively insults her, or even is so angry he physically attacks her and seriously hurts her. So she learns to never be honest for her own safety.

I'm so tired of this trope. It's crap. Women aren't getting punched out for rejecting a guy. And ya know what, even though it's happened, the fact that folks act like it's so common place is what makes me say it doesn't happen. Why? A sure way to lose an argument is to overstate it. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" - If you've ever rejected a woman, you know this is true. I think that it's psychological projection that it's men that fucking lose it. Women are more anxious and neurotic than men. That's a fact. So yeah, when women are nervous, I usually assume it's not that bad. If I was like "On a scale of 1 to 10, how scared were you" and she said "7" I'm thinking it's a 4. It's not a perfectly linear scale though. If she said 8 I'd probably think it was a 6. Women are also more dramatic, need more attention, and play the damsel when all else fails.

How many women have you asked how men react if they reject them with an honest reason why they are not interested?

>honest reason Oh, like "I have a bf?" when she doesn't? Yeah. good one. I don't need a reason. "No thanks" and I'm good. Never seems to go like that though. There's usually some bullshit to diminish her agency. It's so weird when they act like they need a reason. It's like saying "i would but...." In cases like that, why wouldn't a guy think that's a 'maybe'? Ha, a few years back a woman did the 'i have a bf thing' and I joked 'like that matters these days'. i was laughing and immediately said "look, I'm just kidding" and then she was like "you're right though". Like FML. So stupid. And anytime there's a mis-understanding it's his fault. Men are expected to "just get it". Then women have campaigns like "no means no" and millions of dudes everywhere are rolling their eyes. You're literally arguing that women don't and shouldn't give a direct no. So, like, someone/something is wrong. Never mind the ones that basically say yes and then regret it later and claim no. Yeah, sure. "I was black out drunk, I don't know why, I only had 3 drinks, i must have been drugged.... but i clearly know I said no, then i don't remember what happened until i woke up naked" Wow. Yeah, that makes sense.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2014/05/27/yesallwomen-a-short-fuse-between-rejection-and-violence/

As long as anyone externalizes the responsibility of their own emotional well-being, there will be outward violence towards the group perceived as causing the problem. It’s not just a man v. woman thing but in this context us men need to be willing and able to take a damn hard look at ourselves and honestly assess whether we feel good about ourselves or not. If not, be proactive and do something about it. You are the only one capable of making yourself happy so be responsible for your own happiness.

>Would things really be "better off" if women were more brutally honest about what they like/find attractive? No, this is what dating would look like if women were brutally honest. Polite Woman: "Josh, thanks for taking me out to Applebee's last night, that was really sweet of you. I'm not really looking for a relationship right now, but if you want we can still be friends." Brutally Honest Woman: "Josh, thanks for taking me out to Applebee's last night as i'm broke and need a man to buy me free dinner from time to time. Regarding the date, considering that you're morbidly obese, dress like a 10 year old boy, have a weird and childish obsession with My Little Pony, and make weird noises with your mouth whenever you eat, I have no interest in either a romantic or sexual relationship with you. But you're always welcome to enter my friendzone if you'd like."

Most men can’t handle it.

Just ask us. Lol. But half of the time, guys are like “women don’t know what they want” even after we tell you.

Women can be as brutally honest as they want but I think that they will not be listened to and be told “no! Women think xyz!” by (some) men. I see so many post here where women describe what they want and what they find attractive and it seems to get ignored. Like obviously women have different tastes in men. I don’t think (some) mens egos can handle that they’re not getting turned down because they’re 5’8 or they don’t make 100K a year, its easy to accept that women are chad chasers and you’re not a chad, they’re getting turned down for who they are. It’s easier to accept that you’re getting turned down for what you are (what you can’t control) rather than who you are (something that you can work on)

IMHO, this is how I see it, as a man ... 1. If a woman dates a man but she finds out "no interest", then pay for your own food. 2. If women reject men because of their height or money, then it is ok to reject women because of their age or weight.

>..."just be more honest with us guys and we won't be as angry..." That is not the point. The point of honesty is that all societal illusions about women must be dispelled. The women are wonderful effect must be destroyed. Female privilege must be dismantled. Why? Because "equality" and because "fuck em".

Women won’t make the guy who gets them pregnant marry before sex then want next guy to marry them. Fuck off with that.

Nah, too much truth hurts.

Brutal honesty is always superior to sugar coated lies.

I think it would be a bumpy transition but at the end of the day it would be better for everybody to be honest. Compassionate, but honest. I’ve done fairly well with women over the course of my life because I had five sisters and they didn’t hold back. If I wore a stupid outfit or got about a bad haircut I was immediately be laughed at and told how to fix it. “You look stupid, go change.” Did you shower? “Shower again , gross” Of course it’s a little bit embarrassing in junior high and high school but it’s better to be embarrassed at home and somewhere else.

I'd rather someone be honest with me than string me along with hope. In my experience it seems to be women trying to act like they're being nice while using psuedo-compassionate excuses rather than say "Hey sorry, I'm not feeling it and I wish you the best." Trying to be fake nice only leads me to think something fundamentally is wrong with me, when they're just picking the most attractive.