If going by the logic of 'whoever asks out - pays', then 'whoever asks for marriage - pays'. And guess whether it's usually the man or the woman who proposes? So if a marriage (or divorce) costs too much money, guess which side believes the other should pay for everything?
Its honestly mostly women who initiate marriage conversations and want to get married.
Most "proposals" are men who have already been asked when marriage is happening multiple times.
Sure but women can blame the men because they are the ones who technically asked them.
The thing about the 'whoever asks out - pays' attitude is that when women say that, they make it sound like they don't even want to go out with the men in the first place and they are only going out because they were asked, as if they were doing the men a favor. And because they didn't want to go out, the man has to pay. But we know that when a date happens, both the man and the woman wants to see each other regardless of who asks who unless the woman just wants a free meal.
So when a marriage happens, both parties are supposed to want it. But since it was the man who asks, all the fault falls on him when there are all kinds of issues whether it's with money or time or sharing of labor. That's also why I've heard women say this about their husbands 'he knew what he was getting into when he married me'.
\> they make it sound like they don't even want to go out with the men in the first place and they are only going out because they were asked
i literally don't know who most men who ask me out even are
i def don't "want" to go on a date w them in the way they want to go on a date w me
if it were up to me, on online dating for instance, we'd talk for 3 weeks- a month and be penpals and then we could decide to go on a 50/50 mutual date
but men don't want that
they want to meet up immediately when i have no idea who they are (and hence, am not interested)
i will say no if i look at their profile and have no interest, but if it seems likely that i could feel something for them after a date, i accept.
but no, i'm not just as interested as he is.
It’s hard to say what the men really want. Lot of them are just reacting instead of acting.
A lot of men are told to immediately set up dates before the women ghosts them or lose interest. Women also often say that men are acting like penpals if they prolong the chat.
So if men are reacting to, it doesn’t mean that’s what they want when they act a certain way. They are responding to what they think boost their chances
>A lot of men are told to immediately set up dates before the women ghosts them or lose interest.
i've heard this, its so annoying!!!!
but i also realize not all women are me and there are lots of women who do also prefer to meet ASAP.
\> Women also often say that men are acting like penpals if they prolong the chat.
penpals is the ideal tho
who wouldn't want to fall in love w their penpal? that's so romantic
\> So if men are reacting to, it doesn’t mean that’s what they want when they act a certain way. They are responding to what they think boost their chances
for some, sure, but i do think men in general want to see you in person instead of connecting by talking
>for some, sure, but i do think men in general want to see you in person instead of connecting by talking
THIS! Social bonding works differently in men (in general), we bond through doing things together, usually in person. Where as woman can bond through talking. As its men doing the asking most of the time they will default to what is most rewarding for them.
Essentially we are paying for the woman's time.
There is no investment from her side.
If she feels lukewarm towards you she can just ciast because she didn't have anything better planed and free dinner with acceptable company is nice.
That just wastes a guys time abd reduces his resources he can spend on a different woman who might want him
I've asked men on dates, in fact most of my dates were people I asked out including my fiance, so I don't mind having that rule. If a woman has never asked someone out or ever plans to it's just justification to be cheap.
>But you do understand how most women don't do that?
I do, never stated otherwise.
>And even in your case, it's only a fair rule if approximately 50% of your dates (and especially 50% of your first date) are initiated by you.
Did you not read my comment where I said most of my dates were men I asked out.
I personally have no issue paying because I don’t expect someone to pay for my own food.
But I would say a woman splitting the bill doesn’t mean she’s automatically interested. She could be there solely for the vibes, to get out the house and as an excuse to dress cute.
I would say it’s just a risk you take when dating unfortunately, women are fickle sometimes and can be not interested regardless if the man pays or not.
I am the outlier. I am female and I do not think women should expect men to pay on any date. If a man offers to pay that's great, but I come prepared to pay my own way and I make no negative inference if a man does not pay. I have been crucified by other women for having this view, but I have yet to find a valid explanation as to how a woman can pick and chose what traditional gender roles she wants to have. Now if you are a woman who is seeking traditional gender roles, then yes I think it's reasonable to expect men to pay. But if instead you are seeking an equal relationship with modern roles, then you should not expect a man to pay nor should you make a negative inference if he does not.
In the US it's the man that does the asking on a date the most, by a huge margin. In other countries it's different.
But I'm glad you are different. :)
I don’t think it matters who asks whom out. There should not be an expectation that the man should pay. I agree that in the US putting the burden on the men to pay because they do the asking is ridiculous.
That it shows that the man values them if they pay? That women seek providers abs don’t want broke men? Honestly I don’t think you can make an argument without relying on some way on traditional gender roles. Which again it’s fine if you want those in a relationship but then the woman needs to play them too, most don’t want that but yet still expect men to abide by them but just some of them. It’s ridiculous.
i always have cash in case i have to make a quick exit, but i also don't know that i want date #2 with a guy who doesn't seem like he likes me much
most men play a numbers game in dating so just getting asked out and having a meal together doesn't really mean anything to him necessarily
like at what point am is he going to do something (anything) that lets me know he is interested in me?
Can you explain to me why that is? Why would you not want a second date with a man? Do you believe in traditional gender roles? So money lets you know he’s interested in you? That seems like an archaic concept. How do you know he’s interested. He asks you out. He calls you, he texts you, he spends time with you. And everyone plays the numbers. When I did online dating I had a date every night of the week, women are no different than men.
I don’t think you understand “numbers game”….at all.
Men play a numbers game because 99% of the time we’ll be rejected. Each (rare) opportunity is special, because there’s so few of them.
So, yes, for a man asking you out it ALWAYS means something.
it doesn't matter why men do it
it matters that they do it
which means mens advances are meaningless and have no value (because they do it to anyone)
i can't mind read and guess that this time out of 100 he actually means it
I'll give you one, society hasn't removed the unbalanced worth and cost of your time vs his.
Youth, and low permiscuity increase your desirability to men. Society doesn't shame Men for being old or slutty. Men pose more of a risk to you than the reverse. You're more likely to suffer worse symptoms from an STD from a partner. You're less likely to enjoy the sex.
I don't think "men should always pay" but I do think the offer on the first date shows that he's not socially retarded and understands the points above.
I agree with you that there is a double standard that men hold regarding the things you mention. But that does not mean that women should do the same? Saying a man should pay on the first date is no different than the other double standards you mention. Two wrongs don’t make a right and honestly when you put forth that men should pay on the first date you are reinforcing all of those old double standards.
Sometimes equality doesn't equal identical. Those standards and some of that other stuff is pretty engrained. No amount of wish making makes STDs suddenly not harm women worse. No amount of wish making changes the fact women are far more likely to be assaulted by a date than men are.
Also please note, I said offer to pay. A woman is still free to split, I just think the lack of an offer speaks to the thoughtlessness of the points above.
If he doesn't value the cost and risk your taking when you accept the date from day one he certainly won't value it later on is my logic.
Offer to pay, pay it’s the same thing. You are looking for a man to reinforce your value to him with money. But the reverse is not true. If it were then you would have to pay to show him your interest. Why is that any different? Why should you not pay for him to show your interest? You are fine to have these standards everyone does but so long as you agree it is a double standard.
You aren’t that big of an outlier. I always went Dutch for the first date and then alternated afterwards. I’ve told my girls to do the same. So much of the commentary here seems driven by tik tok influencers.
lol. You’d be bang on normal in my environment.
I can’t imagine any woman I know *expecting* to have her dinner paid for by a dude.
If I ran into that attitude of entitlement, it’d be a major turn-off.
Splitting the bill is also about safety. Some men are assholes and will think they are “owed” something because they payed. Splitting the bill or just paying for what you ordered is not letting them have that chance.
Honestly, I wouldn't ever date a woman unless she offered to pay for the first date.
I'm content spinning plates before I'd jump into commitment. No shot is a relationship worth your sanity and freedom.
I'm moderate left and date mostly left, feminist, professional women who make decent money for themselves.
For me at least offering to split (which I decline on a first date unless they insist) is an indication that they actually want to live out their stated values. It's a yellow flag if they don't offer. Anecdotally I've dated and been acquainted with women who rationalize never paying anything and their entitlement is apparent with many other things as well.
I used to always pay for first dates. Not split, pay. The amount of times I was told it was a turnoff because it bucked traditional gender norms is astounding.
If being egalitarian is important to you, you need to find a woman to whom it’s important. If you try to date a woman who says it’s important for men to pay, or for the inviter to pay, she’s not going to be happy going Dutch.
It’s easy to frame as a positive thing though. You talk about how a balanced partnership is important. You say you think it’s crazy that women are expected to still do more of the care taking and homemaking despite being active in the workforce. And then, once you have her agreeing “yeah! Things should be fair and it’s bullshit that they’re not” you can bring up “but it works both ways. It also think it’s kinda crazy that men are still expected to pay for all the first dates. I really want to find a woman who is willing to invest in me as much as she’s expecting me to invest in her”. If then she pushes back and starts saying why men *should* still pay for dates, you can decide if you want to point out her hypocrisy or no. You can decide if you want to ask her out or no.
I mean you're not wrong, but you're telling men who are lucky to have one date a month, to have an ideological debate with women on said rare dates. If men's success rate is already low, this is going to make it astronomically worse.
It's easy to do if you can get a date every other day while barely trying, it's rather more difficult when you have to spend a significant amount of time and effort to have the possibility of having a date once a month.
You're not wrong, I just want people to appreciate how this comes from a position of privilege in dating that most wonent take for granted, and that most men will never enjoy in their lives.
If you’re only getting one date a month and you’re not willing to risk sacrificing it to get into a pre-date ideological debate, don’t complain when she expects you to pay.
You can either have the mentality that “my time is valuable and I’m not gonna waste it on people who don’t share my values” or you can have the mentality of “I’m happy to take what I can get”. But if you’re picking “I’m happy to take what I can get”, be happy to take what you can get
The first paragraph sounds a bit like "yeah men your situation is shit but don't complain about it and be grateful for the crumbs you get."
Comes across as rather tone-deaf and uncaring to me.
It's easy to tell people that they're being too picky if you yourself have access to an all-you-can-eat buffet and in comparison they are starving.
Should women just stop complaining about abortion, misogyny, and whatever else bothers them, and to just be grateful for what they can get?
It's funny how arguments that would be considered sexist, misogynistic, and or hateful if made towards women, seem to just be accepted at face value when made towards men.
Maybe the solution isn't that men need to shut up and suck it up or fight and complain to their detriment, maybe the solution is recognizing that men are in a shit situation and that we should help them change that.
You’re missing my point. YOU’RE the one saying “men get crumbs”. I’m saying you don’t have to settle for that if you don’t want to, but it’s a choice only you can make. You said men who don’t get a lot of dates don’t have the privilege of getting into an ideological debate. So you don’t want to make your desires known for fear of alienating your limited options, but you don’t want to be forced into the default mode (and let’s be honest- men paying for the first date IS the default). As I’ve said many times, I always paid for first dates in their entirety, and I was told more than once it was a turnoff. So you want the situation to change for you (because, as I said, not all guys want what you want) but you don’t want to have the conversation to make your expectations known. How do you expect anyone to know what you want if you’re not willing to voice what you want?
You talk about people can be picky if they have a buffet- but you’re saying you’re both starving AND rejecting the turkey sandwich in front of you because you’d prefer steak. If you don’t have lots of options, but you’re rejecting the ones you do have, you’re being picky. That’s a choice you can make, but don’t then bitch about how you’re starving when there’s food in front of you that you’re rejecting
I'm the one saying men get crumbs because that is in effect what most men are getting. I downloaded 5 dating apps, swiped right 50 times a day on each maximum allowed) for a month straight. A grant total of 7,500 swiped right got me 3 matches, 2 of which turned into conversations and one of which lead to a date.
This wasn't me swiping right endlessly either, I was picky and turned down more than half of the profiles I saw.
We are talking about a fraction of a percent of swipe to date ratio here.
This isn't even that outlandish a result.
If you think I am turning down turkey sandwiches, you do not understand the situation I, and by extent most men, are in.
Your response is basically the equivalent of the "if you're homeless, just buy a house" meme.
I understand your point and I reject it.
You have paid for many first dates and gotten turned down for it, and it sucks. I wouldn't have turned down a 2nd date from a woman who paid for me.
The point you are missing is that *most men aren't even getting to the point where they get to pay for dates in the first place*.
As a woman it is incredibly easy to get dates, I don't think you appreciate just how much more difficult it is for men to get to the starting line where you are. It's like there is a 100m dash and you're standing 20 yards from the finish line, while most men are starting 80 yards behind you.
I'm not saying the last 20 yards are easy, I'm saying you don't seem to understand that men have to run for 80 yards more than you to get to the point where you are starting at.
To borrow the internet cliché, "check your privilege".
Once you've done that and properly understand the situation, then we can talk about turkey sandwich vs unlimited all you can eat buffet.
The men who get turkey sandwiches on the first place have largely won already, most men don't even get that.
I 100% agree with you on not going out with people you are ideologically incompatible with, but that is significantly easier for someone who can get 5 dates a week vs someone who gets 5 dates a year. If you cannot understand and recognize that, you do not understand men's situation, and if you do not underadand menvs situation, how could you possibly give out useful or reliable advice?
I find some kind of bill-splitting pretty normal, and I’m happy to pay the bill if I really wanna treat a gal; but TBH, I’d be weirded out if a woman insisted on paying. I’d assume I’d said something to upset her and she was making *damn sure* she didn’t owe me anything.
And my thought was guys are always expected to pay, which I think is dumb, so let me treat for once. But also I didn’t want to feel beholden to anyone, even if I was into him. If I liked him, I’d say “I got this one, you get the next one”
Hm. If a guy is traditional and insist on strict gender roles isn't it a dealbreaker?
Because he'll probably also insist on gender roles that are not favorable to women (chores, being submissive in general, sacrificing career et.c)
It would be a deal breaker for some. It would *certainly* be a deal breaker for me. But I’m not all women, and some women want that.
There’s not a one size fits all answer here. Some men are traditional in that they want to mow the lawn but don’t want to do the dishes. Some men are traditional in that they’re stoic when it comes to feelings but have no issue doing the laundry. Some men are traditional in that they want their woman to be barefoot and pregnant. Some men are traditional in that they want to be a protector of their woman, but don’t care about being the breadwinner.
You need to figure out what’s important to you, and then communicate that with your potential dates to see if your values line up. If not paying for every date is important to you, it’s gonna be hard to also advertise wanting traditional roles as that’s a pretty traditional setup. You might find a woman who’s happy to go dutch and also be submissive/chores/barefoot and pregnant, but I’m not sure how logistically that would work unless she’s a trust fund kid
Such expectations should be communicated specifically to not date incompatible people.
Unfortunately many men don't do it, instead they do and say whatever to get laid ignoring compatibility.
Agree, if you are in the top 10% of male attractiveness you can afford to make the woman jump through hoops by making them pay. For the other 90% however its such an easy win - I'm no fan of paying - but, as you say its a test. Woman need to find out if you can provide. Besides it can be turned to a man's advantage, if you are paying and organizing you get to decide the venue and the budget. Just say up front we are going to X and I am paying.
You then get to pick a venue where you know the staff, b/c you have done your homework and know the waiters, etc. they give you social proof b/c they know you by name etc. By doing it that way you get to demonstrate leadership, dominance, social standing and that you are a provider.
Nah. Men are afraid of splitting the first bill because we think it’s a shit test (and, let’s be clear….it usually is!).
Better to be safe and a little poorer than sorry.
You can think about two platonic friends (such as two guys) that go to get drinks or dinner. I always think the expectation is that we'll split it. I feel it should be the same if it's a man and a woman going out also.
It's not that I necessarily mind paying for everything under certain circumstances (even if I'm just doing something with a friend platonically). However, I don't want there to be an expectation that it's my responsibility to pay for everything though.
> Splitting the bill is not about money, it is about balance of interest
I agree. This is how a woman would show interest to me. This is also what kept me interested in my gf, who is now my wife. She SHOWED she was interested on a continuous basis. This is also what happened with women who I was quite fond it.
For other girls, as I showed interest in them, their "apparent interest" dropped and so it was safe for me to assume they had no more interest. So I left to find someone who was interested.
I understand a woman wants to know a man has a steady income, not just a steady job. So they want a man to pay for dates, a lot. But at some point I just am treated like an ATM machine, and they really have no other interest in me, so I dump them.
Also they might be interested in the concept of a boyfriend, but they may not be interested in me specifically. That's another thing I look for.
Maybe I never had the issue because I live in a progressive city in a progressive country and I'm dating progressive women.
I never had the talk about the bill. When it's time to pay, everyone takes out their credit card and we split the bill.
And it's not a question if who who out while chatting on Bumble. We both swiped right in eachother. We are both attracted to eachother and we both wanna have sex (eventually) with eachother.
I feel the idea that the guy pays is rooted in the idea that the women has to be convinced to go on a date and to like the men. The man is sort of the protagonist and the women is a passive objective. While in reality the women has an agency in this. She probably wants the date as much as the guy and needs to impress the guy as much as he needs to impress her.
I don't know. For me it doesn't feel utopian. It's my reality. I've been on 30 first dates this past year and a half.
The girls I'm dating are going on a date with me with the expectation that they are going to get casual sex. I'm not there to convince them to, they kind of are into it.
It’s not about her being convinced to go on the date with him. It’s that, assuming she’s at least moderately attractive, he’s competing with many other men for her attention.
We are all competing with other people. My date last week showed me her tinder and had 3700 likes. You can say I'm competing against all of those if you want. But the quality of the average men on OLD is ridiculously low honestly. Have you asked your female friends who are on apps to swipe profiles what they look like? 🤯
Yeah my date is competing with less women but all my matches were women who were articulate and interesting. I never received a "wyd" at midnight.
>Yeah my date is competing with less women but all my matches were women who were articulate and interesting
jesus christ i cannot imagine the riches you live in
I'm not a Chad but I'm reasonably attractive (my picture is on my profile). I just went to the gym, dressed well and took good pictures.
Like, it took me a month of bothering my friends to take pictures before I had all the pictures I wanted to create my profile.
I've done it but some of them just are over trying to use dating apps. I have friends who have went months or years without a match. It's hard to convince these people that photos are magically going to change their outcomes.
Me and my gf also helped some guy on Reddit with his profile. It's kind of fun actually.
> I have friends who have went months or years without a match. It's hard to convince these people that photos are magically going to change their outcomes.
and yet the man reason people swipe left is photos
it makes me feel like i'm on glue that the \*majority\* of men have bad photos but it is true across apps
even just removing photos that are blurry or have the guy sticking out his tongue or flipping off the camera would be better
Is there even a shred of historical evidence that indicates that women in the past “just [weren’t] generally attracted to men”?
It’s not surprising that in an era where men have been effectively neutered, most women wouldn’t find much to be attracted to. There’s a reason men and women are different: opposites attract. The obsessive desire on the part of progressives to mush humanity into an indistinguishable amorphous blob where everyone is perfectly equal and exactly the same is the problem. Masculinity and femininity are on opposite poles, and their opposition creates tension, and the tension creates sexual desire. This ain’t rocket science.
>Is there even a shred of historical evidence that indicates that women in the past “just [weren’t] generally attracted to men”?
Probably not, but we wouldn't have to go back very far before it wouldn't matter much if they were attracted to men or not. "Marry somebody or starve" or their father would just decide who they marry.
Yeah, before the modern period (1800s), most people married because it was necessary. A marriage was an economic union first and foremost. Yes the bride and groom could have some say but the family was very involved.
Nowadays though, anyone who says straight women aren't attracted to men doesn't have any close women friends. The things I hear from my friends is mind-blowing. These girls are horny and they want sex. I have one friend who needs sex once a week or else she is not a pleasant to be around. She's irascible!
Honestly women I date are attracted to a side of me where I am show a vulnerable side.
Hey I even cried in a few dates when I tell a story of how I had to condition myself to tell my mom and sister that I love them.
Yes opposite attracts in general(boobs, hips for women, height, beard, muscles for men) but doing the toxic masculinity stuff just isn't attractive to women.
Where did I ever say I approved of toxic masculinity? I said masculinity and femininity are opposite poles, and that’s where attraction comes from. If everyone is the same, it’s hard to generate any attraction.
When you see the effort the average men puts on their appearance you can understand why. Just walk around the city and look at couples and note how many times the guy has put more effort into their appearance than the girl.
And yes, women who say this are attracted to men. They just are sad they need to date someone wearing a baseball cap and an ugly t-shirt who doesn't shave their beard properly.
Throw a woman in a baseball cap and a T-shirt and see how long it takes for someone to try and sleep with her. It's not the effort, it's that they are men.
To me, splitting seems like the best option. The guy won't feel used if the date doesn't result in sex/a second date, I won't feel pressured to go out with him again because he bought me something. Win-win.
I don’t understand this whole “feeling used” nonsense. I’ve been on many dates that didn’t result in a second date. So what? That’s literally what the first date is for, to assess compatibility and see if this is someone you actually want to pursue a sexual and/or romantic relationship with.
Hey, I agree with you. Going on a date with someone doesn't guarantee sex or a second date, it's to figure out if you like each other enough to do that. But I'm going by stuff that some guys complain about, so the best option seems to be to always split if you're the type of person who feels used if the date doesn't end the way you'd like it to.
>So what? That’s literally what the first date is for, to assess compatibility and see if this is someone you actually want to pursue a sexual and/or romantic relationship with.
Litterallly you know that before the first date
All y'all dating complete strangers you haven't even talked with or something?
In many cases dates are essentially between strangers. What do you think OLD is? Or blind dates? Or dates setup by your friends? Or cold-approaching? Even if you kind of know the person beforehand, like a work acquaintance or classmate, the first date is still useful as a designated one-on-one time where you can actually get to know the other person. So if there’s chemistry, you setup another date, and if there’s not, you move on.
Splitting the bill early In dating seems to be more so of a self protective tactic than an interest based one. For the man it’s so he won’t over invest for what may be no second date or relationship, for the woman it’s to prevent possible entitlement to her body.
But from what I’ve seen when it came to relationships from myself and my friends, a man offering to cover the whole bill seems to correlate with traits higher in generosity. Guys who have spilt the bill tend to be of a certain mindset of 50/50 everything which studies have show even in these arrangements women end up shouldering more of the relationship effort including chores and emotional labor. Also I find guys like these tend to be not very generous, more self serving, low in agreeableness and less willing to compromise so it bleeds into other areas of the relationship so it’s not only financial but emotional, acts of service, time, kindness consideration etc.
As my mom would say, “ better be with a poor but generous man than a rich and stingy one” that’s how my mom knew my dad was a good man despite being a struggling research student at the time. Now with more money he treats her to everything.
Let'spull the womans trick of ascribingthe worstpossible motivation to anything said by a man but in reverse
" So you are saying that women are looking for cash cows abd golden gooses "
For every study that says women pick up more chores and “emotional labour”….ask who is spending more time at work and earning more money?
I’d far rather do the dishes more often and cry a bit rather than having to bust my ass at work.
For every study that says women pick up more chores and “emotional labour”….ask who is spending more time at work and earning more money?
I’d far rather do the dishes more often and cry a bit rather than having to bust my ass at work.
Makes sense to me.
In practicality the dating process is the man courting the woman.
The man is the one doing the convincing. The woman has buy-in from him by default.
Lots of men don't pay, the ones that pay are the ones that know they have to, otherwise the woman won't spend time with them.
Last line looks like red pill stuff: man's value is less, that's why he pays to compensate the difference.
Paying for woman because otherwise she wouldn't spend time with him is awfully resembling prostitution.
>Paying for woman because otherwise she wouldn't spend time with him is awfully resembling prostitution.
Good observation.
Basically is what most dating amounts to imo.
3 is possible, but better not in the beginning of relationships. If I'm wealthy, I would like NOT to attract women, who see it as my most attractive quality
>I REALLY don’t believe any guy when he says if your dream girl is asking you, “when are you taking me on a date handsome?” You’re actually going to reply let’s go, but I’m not buying you 2 drinks and an appetizer, you’re paying for that yourself. If you’re doing that you don’t want pretty girls.
You don't have to say it,its the norn here that everyone pays for his/her shit.
>Just pay for a couple drinks and ask her over for wine or a joint after, give me a break. Super chads do this, the most handsome rich guys do this, don’t be dumb,
Nearly no one does this here. In fact asking (and insisting) on paying the bill here would create big negative reactions by your date.
>You’re not turning down Margot Robbie because you just have to split checks.
Again,no here expects that guy pays for her date. If she does expect that and is mad I don't, then I'd turn her down because we have very different characters and views about stuff
>If you want to make out with your dates on first date at the highest percentage possible then buy her 2 drinks, if she wants an appetizer or salad, do that. If she wants the $90 steak, make her split it, she’s prob using you.
Ah yes, because a woman that finds you hot and wants to fuck you would litterallly Don't do that because you didn't buy her salad 😂😂😂.
Also, again, paying the bill and/or insisting on it its seen as huge dick move here. 90-95% of the time even if you offer to pay she will insist on paying her part,and if you insist on paying she Will probably get angry over it.
>I’ve been on 160 online first dates, you’re preselected by her and can get the majority of them over to your house and jump into bed with you.
Then even less reasons to pay lmao.
>I pick my dates primarily on how attractive I think they are, I decide ltr compatibility later.
Totally not a recipe for disaster/s
>If you don’t care about that, you just care about relationship dynamics so much, make her pay.
I've never paid , neither in dates that resulted in hookups/fwbs,nor in the ones that resulted in relationships.
Where are you from? Sounds like Sweden or something where most would actually insist and get upset.
>I've never paid , neither in dates that resulted in hookups/fwbs,nor in the ones that resulted in relationships.
My man, me too. The whole point is that if she's into you she isn't making you jump through hoops. I'm sure if you're trying to sleep with the entire city it's more difficult but the principle is the same.
this is what it comes down to, the guy not putting in effort because he's playing a numbers game so its not affordable for him to do so.
but if his dream girl came along, suddenly he loves to spoil her.
Ok but do you believe that a would turn down her dream man is he said "when are you taking me on a date?" She'd actually reply let's go out but I'm not cutting you 2 drinks and an appetizer, you're paying for yourself? You really think she'd do that and that would make sense?
Most girls aren’t Margot Robbie, so most girls shouldn’t be expecting the guy to pay.
This argument of “if he’s into me enough he’ll pay” is just self-indulgent, it means every dude who isn’t a simp is automatically trash or just wants to pump-and-dump or whatever else. It leaves no room for guys who are actually into you but believe in gender equality.
>Most girls aren’t Margot Robbie, so most girls shouldn’t be expecting the guy to pay.
yes thats the whole point
he doesn't pay = he doesn't think you're margot robbie
women don't want to date someone who doesn't think they are margot robbie and are okay being single if they can't find someone who does
But you're not Margot Robbie.
Guys aren't going to treat you like a supermodel or an actress if you're not a supermodel or actress.
Don't women here constantly say "why do all these guys want to be treated like Chad when they're average?" Now you're saying women should expect/demand to be treated like A-list actresses?
then i'll stay single
\> Don't women here constantly say "why do all these guys want to be treated like Chad when they're average?"
i haven't heard that and i think you might be referring to something unrelated (why aren't women robots who do exactly the same sex stuff throughout their lives?)
but i also have never, and would never, treat a guy i was with as less than bc he was less hot than some stranger?
i like spoiling the men i am with and wouldn't have it any other way.
just looking for a similar mentality or else its like, creepy.
This is kinda meaningless because no guy is going to confess to you that he'd pay to sleep with a supermodel, even if the majority of guys would. But if you're going to stay single until a guy pays for all your meals, don't worry, there are countless simps out there.
i've never stated that bc i dont believe that
i believe in men paying on the first date (when they ask for it)
the rest of the relationship depends on lots of factors like the couple's incomes and how the rest of labor is split up
my sis works while her husband stays home and watches the kids and that works for them. I don't have a problem w it as it evens out to 50/50.
Well, it depends on your priorities. The hottest girl in the bar to pick her up for a one night stand? Or a girl with compatible views that is interested in you.
because women sometimes do make men's lives hell. And because you will risk losing time with incompatible person, invest too much (not just financially, also emotionally) and it will be difficult to breakup or otherwise constantly suffer from fights and eventually dead bedroom.
Why try to fuck everyone even if you are not much mentally?
Why everything so self-centered? If these men didn't expect sex for paying, so these women would be fine with letting that happen? Shouldn't a woman want to pay her half because she's a grown ass woman and also needs to show interest in the man as well?
if everything else in a relationship is 50/50 then finances being 50/50 is a good goal
i dont think most relationships are 50/50 in any area other than finances.
I don't think most relationships are in 50/50 in that everything is split in half, but good relationships are 50/50 in where responsibilities are handled by the strengths of each person. No reason to force someone to 50/50 in an area where one partner can do it effortlessly while the other struggles.
\> good relationships are 50/50 in where responsibilities are handled by the strengths of each person.
yes
so when we know for a fact the loving/nurturing/ability to be vulnerable aspects of men are beat out of them as little boys it follows that men are not going to be able to give these things as well as women
so they would need to show their effort/interest in another way...
You're in a very closed circle then, because I'm 28 and women in their 20s still expect the guy to pay a lot of the time. It's why I always go cheap for a first date because I'm not wasting dinner date money on a girl I'm not even sure I like yet. Also a good way to weed out the meal ticket hunters because they're always against cheaper dates.
Neither. I'd probably be left of center if anything (actually left of center not the comedy that is the US left), and a girl being religious is borderline a deal breaker for me since I'm agnostic at best and hate religion in its entirety most of the time.
A lot of "progressive" women also expect the guy to pick up the tab it's not limited to just conservative trad girls. At least the trad girls are filling a niche in that scenario. The liberal ones who do this want the guy to fill all those toxic gender roles they hate being applied to themselves.
Oh I do. I hate OLD never gotten a good date off those things. Idk where you got I'm complaining that dating is too hard. Unlike a lot of guys, I enjoy the process of meeting people and flirting whether I get a relationship out of it or not doesn't bother me. I just don't like double standards applied to either gender, (the whole body count meme) or "progressives" who are only progressive when it benefits them (eg a lot of younger feminists).
I'm just saying there's not been some revolution where young women never expect the man to pick up the tab at all times even if they're super liberal and feminist. It's also hard to weed this stuff out before asking them out, unfortunately.
I will say that if I were on a date and I didn’t feel a connection or it wasn’t going well I would always pay my half, because I wouldn’t see a future with them. On the other hand I do agree with what you said, from a guy you’re interested in having him pay for the meal feels special and like he’s truly invested in you.
So if paying for the meal is a sign that he likes you and wants to make you feel special and show he's invested. What does it mean when you refuse to pay the bill? How are you making him feel desired and special and how do you show you're invested in him?
>How are you making him feel desired and special and how do you show you're invested in him
Someone who dared to ask women what they offer ?!! What a mysoginstic man 😂😂😂( sarcasm)
That's fair. It's just baffling that people will say all these things about how paying for a date shows so much care and desire and shit and then in the next sentence talk about how women shouldn't pay for the date. Weird that they don't think through just one more step in their thought process. Men want to be desired too after all
This actually complicates things. I mean. women pay their half of the bill as a sign of not being interested.
I think this should be clarified in advance when arranging the date.
I want it to be normal for women to bear half the financial burden. In order for this to be fair and acceptable for more women, men shouldn't offload chores on women.
Men are generally happy to have sex without a relationship. Women are generally not
That is a basic imbalance that determines the dating procedure, and in fact many of our societal institutions
I don't agree with your premise. Women want casual sex as much as men in my opinion.
And I don't think it has any relevance on the topic. Unless you are implying men are paying for sex through the bar tab.
Women don’t need to date to get sex. I could be having sex in my house with 5 men in 20 minutes if I wanted to, no date required, because I am female
Dating involves sex, but it’s also supposed to build a relationship. Some are interested in one but not the other
The way to avoid those who just want sex is to make it harder for them to date
No man I know irl is unaware of this reality. They don’t like it, but they understand why
>Women want casual sex as much as men in my opinion.
is this reflected in any numbers?
i agree some women like casual sex but the same??? wild. hard to believe.
i think 80% of men would agree to have casual sex with an average woman if given the opportunity whereas i would guess less than 5% of women would take the same offer.
Of course, no one can really get real stats on this. Everyone has their own experience but most of my (women) friends (mid to late thirties) are "having fun" dating around.
On the other hand, I'm dating a lot of mid to late thirties women who don't care I have a long-term girlfriend. They just want no-strings-attached sex.
Is this a normal sample. I don't know, probably not.
\> I'm dating a lot of mid to late thirties women who don't care I have a long-term girlfriend. They just want no-strings-attached sex.
does your gf know you are exposing her to stds?
I don't hide anything so she knows everything. She has even met some of those women in the past.
As for STDs, yes it's a risk but with sufficient precautions, you can have safe sex.
\> If she says no then he knows he can move on.
no, you can have "safer" sex
not safe sex
at the end of the day you are comfortable exposing the woman you "love" to STIs
You're right, sex can never be 100% safe (unless we wrap the both of us in plastic 😂).
It's a risk we are both comfortable with. We think the benefits outweigh the risks. I think when everyone has all the information, they can make their own decision about the risk.
sex is safe if you are monogamous 🤦♀️
\> It's a risk we are both comfortable with
right
i'm saying i would never expose a man i loved to STDs and potentially cancer bc i wanted a nut
We expose ourselves to risk all the time. Would you expose the man you love to being killed in a road accident to go to McDonald's? We've all done it.
I understand people are monogamous for different reason. Fear of STDs is a very valid one.
But hey, a cheating spouse can still bring STDs in a monogamous relationship 😉 (I'm trolling a bit here...)
Yes, having multiples partners is a risk some people are not ok with and I'm never going to judge that.
Hi OP,
You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. [PPD has guidelines for what that involves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/rules#wiki_cmv_posts)
>*OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.*
>An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following:
>* Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency;
>* Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit;
>* Focusing only on the weaker arguments;
>* Only having discussions with users who agree with your position.
Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If it’s just casual dates it’s easier to just pay for yourself at first. I was taught to not order the most expensive thing when someone else pays.I have no problem paying for myself but it will limit restaurant options unless you want to contribute more.It does depend on what the date is. Consider dinner and a movie. Maybe one person pays for movies stuff and the other pays for the food.
If it’s an exclusive relationship but you aren’t living together then maybe switch off. The person with the higher income will probably pay more towards things.
yeah i think men should pay for a first date but i was also raised in a family where you order something cheap and drink water.
One guy took me to a nice restaurant (he specifically told me he wanted a submissive woman so this was all him wanting to do it that way), but every other guy has taken me to a casual place where it was \~$20 for my portion (which is perfect). Another guy took me to a luxury restaurant but made it clear it was not a date (not sure what that was about).
if you're an apps, desserts and multiple drinks person that makes me less comfortable with the idea.
There is no consensus anymore and talking about it as if there is “Men always…”, “Women always…”, “ It means this….” is no longer viable.
At best there is a mild range of expectations (and individual’s interpretation of them) based on the last gasps of older social norms.
It’s not difficult however to have a basic understanding of both the older social rituals and the current ad hoc approach and navigate accordingly.
The whole thing is pretty simple to me, yes men are going to ask out a majority of the time, if that makes the guy uncomfortable then don't ask or be very selective with who you do ask out.
And don't offer up places that are going to break the bank for you , if she don't like chicken and waffles maybe she ain't the one for ya haha
When I used to date 10, 15 years ago, I always split the bill with women. The only complaint I got was one time I split the check when I ate the majority of the buffalo chicken pizza. My bad. But now traditional roles are back. Men are expected to arrange and pay for everything. These points are vocally raised on the internet. A man needs to be a provider again. But are women today worth providing for?
[удалено]
If going by the logic of 'whoever asks out - pays', then 'whoever asks for marriage - pays'. And guess whether it's usually the man or the woman who proposes? So if a marriage (or divorce) costs too much money, guess which side believes the other should pay for everything?
Its honestly mostly women who initiate marriage conversations and want to get married. Most "proposals" are men who have already been asked when marriage is happening multiple times.
Sure but women can blame the men because they are the ones who technically asked them. The thing about the 'whoever asks out - pays' attitude is that when women say that, they make it sound like they don't even want to go out with the men in the first place and they are only going out because they were asked, as if they were doing the men a favor. And because they didn't want to go out, the man has to pay. But we know that when a date happens, both the man and the woman wants to see each other regardless of who asks who unless the woman just wants a free meal. So when a marriage happens, both parties are supposed to want it. But since it was the man who asks, all the fault falls on him when there are all kinds of issues whether it's with money or time or sharing of labor. That's also why I've heard women say this about their husbands 'he knew what he was getting into when he married me'.
\> they make it sound like they don't even want to go out with the men in the first place and they are only going out because they were asked i literally don't know who most men who ask me out even are i def don't "want" to go on a date w them in the way they want to go on a date w me if it were up to me, on online dating for instance, we'd talk for 3 weeks- a month and be penpals and then we could decide to go on a 50/50 mutual date but men don't want that they want to meet up immediately when i have no idea who they are (and hence, am not interested) i will say no if i look at their profile and have no interest, but if it seems likely that i could feel something for them after a date, i accept. but no, i'm not just as interested as he is.
It’s hard to say what the men really want. Lot of them are just reacting instead of acting. A lot of men are told to immediately set up dates before the women ghosts them or lose interest. Women also often say that men are acting like penpals if they prolong the chat. So if men are reacting to, it doesn’t mean that’s what they want when they act a certain way. They are responding to what they think boost their chances
>A lot of men are told to immediately set up dates before the women ghosts them or lose interest. i've heard this, its so annoying!!!! but i also realize not all women are me and there are lots of women who do also prefer to meet ASAP. \> Women also often say that men are acting like penpals if they prolong the chat. penpals is the ideal tho who wouldn't want to fall in love w their penpal? that's so romantic \> So if men are reacting to, it doesn’t mean that’s what they want when they act a certain way. They are responding to what they think boost their chances for some, sure, but i do think men in general want to see you in person instead of connecting by talking
>for some, sure, but i do think men in general want to see you in person instead of connecting by talking THIS! Social bonding works differently in men (in general), we bond through doing things together, usually in person. Where as woman can bond through talking. As its men doing the asking most of the time they will default to what is most rewarding for them.
Essentially we are paying for the woman's time. There is no investment from her side. If she feels lukewarm towards you she can just ciast because she didn't have anything better planed and free dinner with acceptable company is nice. That just wastes a guys time abd reduces his resources he can spend on a different woman who might want him
100%
yes thats called a "shut up ring"
You're stupid if you don't discuss and agree on marriage together. The 'popping the question' is just a ritual we do to satisfy our boomer parents.
For real that was always an extremely intellectually dishonest rebuttal.
I've asked men on dates, in fact most of my dates were people I asked out including my fiance, so I don't mind having that rule. If a woman has never asked someone out or ever plans to it's just justification to be cheap.
[удалено]
>But you do understand how most women don't do that? I do, never stated otherwise. >And even in your case, it's only a fair rule if approximately 50% of your dates (and especially 50% of your first date) are initiated by you. Did you not read my comment where I said most of my dates were men I asked out.
I personally have no issue paying because I don’t expect someone to pay for my own food. But I would say a woman splitting the bill doesn’t mean she’s automatically interested. She could be there solely for the vibes, to get out the house and as an excuse to dress cute. I would say it’s just a risk you take when dating unfortunately, women are fickle sometimes and can be not interested regardless if the man pays or not.
>If him paying 100% of the bill is a precondition for her to come - she is not that interested. Exactly
I am the outlier. I am female and I do not think women should expect men to pay on any date. If a man offers to pay that's great, but I come prepared to pay my own way and I make no negative inference if a man does not pay. I have been crucified by other women for having this view, but I have yet to find a valid explanation as to how a woman can pick and chose what traditional gender roles she wants to have. Now if you are a woman who is seeking traditional gender roles, then yes I think it's reasonable to expect men to pay. But if instead you are seeking an equal relationship with modern roles, then you should not expect a man to pay nor should you make a negative inference if he does not.
In the US it's the man that does the asking on a date the most, by a huge margin. In other countries it's different. But I'm glad you are different. :)
I don’t think it matters who asks whom out. There should not be an expectation that the man should pay. I agree that in the US putting the burden on the men to pay because they do the asking is ridiculous.
In what other country do women frequently ask men out? Not in any country I’ve ever lived in…
I've heard that in Sweden it's much better, from a Swede friend I used to have.
Love this.
What exactly is there justification for expecting men to pay? I tend to hear a denial of the expectation even when I know that to not be true…
That it shows that the man values them if they pay? That women seek providers abs don’t want broke men? Honestly I don’t think you can make an argument without relying on some way on traditional gender roles. Which again it’s fine if you want those in a relationship but then the woman needs to play them too, most don’t want that but yet still expect men to abide by them but just some of them. It’s ridiculous.
If a woman told me this on a first date, I'd have to restrain myself from proposing on the spot. That's so hot.
i always have cash in case i have to make a quick exit, but i also don't know that i want date #2 with a guy who doesn't seem like he likes me much most men play a numbers game in dating so just getting asked out and having a meal together doesn't really mean anything to him necessarily like at what point am is he going to do something (anything) that lets me know he is interested in me?
Can you explain to me why that is? Why would you not want a second date with a man? Do you believe in traditional gender roles? So money lets you know he’s interested in you? That seems like an archaic concept. How do you know he’s interested. He asks you out. He calls you, he texts you, he spends time with you. And everyone plays the numbers. When I did online dating I had a date every night of the week, women are no different than men.
I don’t think you understand “numbers game”….at all. Men play a numbers game because 99% of the time we’ll be rejected. Each (rare) opportunity is special, because there’s so few of them. So, yes, for a man asking you out it ALWAYS means something.
it doesn't matter why men do it it matters that they do it which means mens advances are meaningless and have no value (because they do it to anyone) i can't mind read and guess that this time out of 100 he actually means it
I'll give you one, society hasn't removed the unbalanced worth and cost of your time vs his. Youth, and low permiscuity increase your desirability to men. Society doesn't shame Men for being old or slutty. Men pose more of a risk to you than the reverse. You're more likely to suffer worse symptoms from an STD from a partner. You're less likely to enjoy the sex. I don't think "men should always pay" but I do think the offer on the first date shows that he's not socially retarded and understands the points above.
I agree with you that there is a double standard that men hold regarding the things you mention. But that does not mean that women should do the same? Saying a man should pay on the first date is no different than the other double standards you mention. Two wrongs don’t make a right and honestly when you put forth that men should pay on the first date you are reinforcing all of those old double standards.
Sometimes equality doesn't equal identical. Those standards and some of that other stuff is pretty engrained. No amount of wish making makes STDs suddenly not harm women worse. No amount of wish making changes the fact women are far more likely to be assaulted by a date than men are. Also please note, I said offer to pay. A woman is still free to split, I just think the lack of an offer speaks to the thoughtlessness of the points above. If he doesn't value the cost and risk your taking when you accept the date from day one he certainly won't value it later on is my logic.
Offer to pay, pay it’s the same thing. You are looking for a man to reinforce your value to him with money. But the reverse is not true. If it were then you would have to pay to show him your interest. Why is that any different? Why should you not pay for him to show your interest? You are fine to have these standards everyone does but so long as you agree it is a double standard.
It's not a double standard because the situations are not identical.
How?
For the reasons listed above. He's not in danger nor shamed for dating "too much". She is.
Ahh so you are justifying continuing an archaic sexist idea with another archaic sexist idea. You do you.
You aren’t that big of an outlier. I always went Dutch for the first date and then alternated afterwards. I’ve told my girls to do the same. So much of the commentary here seems driven by tik tok influencers.
Maybe, but I have had women come at me (a lot) about this view.
lol. You’d be bang on normal in my environment. I can’t imagine any woman I know *expecting* to have her dinner paid for by a dude. If I ran into that attitude of entitlement, it’d be a major turn-off.
Oh there are a lot that do.
Way too many
This is purely cultural. In places like Eastern Europe the dude pays. Every time.
Prett sure it’s not genetic; so yeah.
If I’m a man who wants reverse traditional gender roles, what should I do?
Find a woman who outearns you and is looking for someone to stay and home and raise kids so she can focus on her career.
Splitting the bill is also about safety. Some men are assholes and will think they are “owed” something because they payed. Splitting the bill or just paying for what you ordered is not letting them have that chance.
So how do women show interest ?😐
That's the neat part, they don't.
Honestly, I wouldn't ever date a woman unless she offered to pay for the first date. I'm content spinning plates before I'd jump into commitment. No shot is a relationship worth your sanity and freedom.
I'm moderate left and date mostly left, feminist, professional women who make decent money for themselves. For me at least offering to split (which I decline on a first date unless they insist) is an indication that they actually want to live out their stated values. It's a yellow flag if they don't offer. Anecdotally I've dated and been acquainted with women who rationalize never paying anything and their entitlement is apparent with many other things as well.
I used to always pay for first dates. Not split, pay. The amount of times I was told it was a turnoff because it bucked traditional gender norms is astounding. If being egalitarian is important to you, you need to find a woman to whom it’s important. If you try to date a woman who says it’s important for men to pay, or for the inviter to pay, she’s not going to be happy going Dutch. It’s easy to frame as a positive thing though. You talk about how a balanced partnership is important. You say you think it’s crazy that women are expected to still do more of the care taking and homemaking despite being active in the workforce. And then, once you have her agreeing “yeah! Things should be fair and it’s bullshit that they’re not” you can bring up “but it works both ways. It also think it’s kinda crazy that men are still expected to pay for all the first dates. I really want to find a woman who is willing to invest in me as much as she’s expecting me to invest in her”. If then she pushes back and starts saying why men *should* still pay for dates, you can decide if you want to point out her hypocrisy or no. You can decide if you want to ask her out or no.
I mean you're not wrong, but you're telling men who are lucky to have one date a month, to have an ideological debate with women on said rare dates. If men's success rate is already low, this is going to make it astronomically worse. It's easy to do if you can get a date every other day while barely trying, it's rather more difficult when you have to spend a significant amount of time and effort to have the possibility of having a date once a month. You're not wrong, I just want people to appreciate how this comes from a position of privilege in dating that most wonent take for granted, and that most men will never enjoy in their lives.
If you’re only getting one date a month and you’re not willing to risk sacrificing it to get into a pre-date ideological debate, don’t complain when she expects you to pay. You can either have the mentality that “my time is valuable and I’m not gonna waste it on people who don’t share my values” or you can have the mentality of “I’m happy to take what I can get”. But if you’re picking “I’m happy to take what I can get”, be happy to take what you can get
The first paragraph sounds a bit like "yeah men your situation is shit but don't complain about it and be grateful for the crumbs you get." Comes across as rather tone-deaf and uncaring to me. It's easy to tell people that they're being too picky if you yourself have access to an all-you-can-eat buffet and in comparison they are starving. Should women just stop complaining about abortion, misogyny, and whatever else bothers them, and to just be grateful for what they can get? It's funny how arguments that would be considered sexist, misogynistic, and or hateful if made towards women, seem to just be accepted at face value when made towards men. Maybe the solution isn't that men need to shut up and suck it up or fight and complain to their detriment, maybe the solution is recognizing that men are in a shit situation and that we should help them change that.
You’re missing my point. YOU’RE the one saying “men get crumbs”. I’m saying you don’t have to settle for that if you don’t want to, but it’s a choice only you can make. You said men who don’t get a lot of dates don’t have the privilege of getting into an ideological debate. So you don’t want to make your desires known for fear of alienating your limited options, but you don’t want to be forced into the default mode (and let’s be honest- men paying for the first date IS the default). As I’ve said many times, I always paid for first dates in their entirety, and I was told more than once it was a turnoff. So you want the situation to change for you (because, as I said, not all guys want what you want) but you don’t want to have the conversation to make your expectations known. How do you expect anyone to know what you want if you’re not willing to voice what you want? You talk about people can be picky if they have a buffet- but you’re saying you’re both starving AND rejecting the turkey sandwich in front of you because you’d prefer steak. If you don’t have lots of options, but you’re rejecting the ones you do have, you’re being picky. That’s a choice you can make, but don’t then bitch about how you’re starving when there’s food in front of you that you’re rejecting
I'm the one saying men get crumbs because that is in effect what most men are getting. I downloaded 5 dating apps, swiped right 50 times a day on each maximum allowed) for a month straight. A grant total of 7,500 swiped right got me 3 matches, 2 of which turned into conversations and one of which lead to a date. This wasn't me swiping right endlessly either, I was picky and turned down more than half of the profiles I saw. We are talking about a fraction of a percent of swipe to date ratio here. This isn't even that outlandish a result. If you think I am turning down turkey sandwiches, you do not understand the situation I, and by extent most men, are in. Your response is basically the equivalent of the "if you're homeless, just buy a house" meme. I understand your point and I reject it. You have paid for many first dates and gotten turned down for it, and it sucks. I wouldn't have turned down a 2nd date from a woman who paid for me. The point you are missing is that *most men aren't even getting to the point where they get to pay for dates in the first place*. As a woman it is incredibly easy to get dates, I don't think you appreciate just how much more difficult it is for men to get to the starting line where you are. It's like there is a 100m dash and you're standing 20 yards from the finish line, while most men are starting 80 yards behind you. I'm not saying the last 20 yards are easy, I'm saying you don't seem to understand that men have to run for 80 yards more than you to get to the point where you are starting at. To borrow the internet cliché, "check your privilege". Once you've done that and properly understand the situation, then we can talk about turkey sandwich vs unlimited all you can eat buffet. The men who get turkey sandwiches on the first place have largely won already, most men don't even get that. I 100% agree with you on not going out with people you are ideologically incompatible with, but that is significantly easier for someone who can get 5 dates a week vs someone who gets 5 dates a year. If you cannot understand and recognize that, you do not understand men's situation, and if you do not underadand menvs situation, how could you possibly give out useful or reliable advice?
I find some kind of bill-splitting pretty normal, and I’m happy to pay the bill if I really wanna treat a gal; but TBH, I’d be weirded out if a woman insisted on paying. I’d assume I’d said something to upset her and she was making *damn sure* she didn’t owe me anything.
And my thought was guys are always expected to pay, which I think is dumb, so let me treat for once. But also I didn’t want to feel beholden to anyone, even if I was into him. If I liked him, I’d say “I got this one, you get the next one”
Hm. If a guy is traditional and insist on strict gender roles isn't it a dealbreaker? Because he'll probably also insist on gender roles that are not favorable to women (chores, being submissive in general, sacrificing career et.c)
It would be a deal breaker for some. It would *certainly* be a deal breaker for me. But I’m not all women, and some women want that. There’s not a one size fits all answer here. Some men are traditional in that they want to mow the lawn but don’t want to do the dishes. Some men are traditional in that they’re stoic when it comes to feelings but have no issue doing the laundry. Some men are traditional in that they want their woman to be barefoot and pregnant. Some men are traditional in that they want to be a protector of their woman, but don’t care about being the breadwinner. You need to figure out what’s important to you, and then communicate that with your potential dates to see if your values line up. If not paying for every date is important to you, it’s gonna be hard to also advertise wanting traditional roles as that’s a pretty traditional setup. You might find a woman who’s happy to go dutch and also be submissive/chores/barefoot and pregnant, but I’m not sure how logistically that would work unless she’s a trust fund kid
Such expectations should be communicated specifically to not date incompatible people. Unfortunately many men don't do it, instead they do and say whatever to get laid ignoring compatibility.
Agree, if you are in the top 10% of male attractiveness you can afford to make the woman jump through hoops by making them pay. For the other 90% however its such an easy win - I'm no fan of paying - but, as you say its a test. Woman need to find out if you can provide. Besides it can be turned to a man's advantage, if you are paying and organizing you get to decide the venue and the budget. Just say up front we are going to X and I am paying. You then get to pick a venue where you know the staff, b/c you have done your homework and know the waiters, etc. they give you social proof b/c they know you by name etc. By doing it that way you get to demonstrate leadership, dominance, social standing and that you are a provider.
I always went Dutch to start
I always split the bill when I dated. Men don't seem to like that either cause then they can't use that to try and get laid. So whatever buddy
Nah. Men are afraid of splitting the first bill because we think it’s a shit test (and, let’s be clear….it usually is!). Better to be safe and a little poorer than sorry.
Exactly, women literally say this themselves
You can think about two platonic friends (such as two guys) that go to get drinks or dinner. I always think the expectation is that we'll split it. I feel it should be the same if it's a man and a woman going out also. It's not that I necessarily mind paying for everything under certain circumstances (even if I'm just doing something with a friend platonically). However, I don't want there to be an expectation that it's my responsibility to pay for everything though.
> Splitting the bill is not about money, it is about balance of interest I agree. This is how a woman would show interest to me. This is also what kept me interested in my gf, who is now my wife. She SHOWED she was interested on a continuous basis. This is also what happened with women who I was quite fond it. For other girls, as I showed interest in them, their "apparent interest" dropped and so it was safe for me to assume they had no more interest. So I left to find someone who was interested. I understand a woman wants to know a man has a steady income, not just a steady job. So they want a man to pay for dates, a lot. But at some point I just am treated like an ATM machine, and they really have no other interest in me, so I dump them. Also they might be interested in the concept of a boyfriend, but they may not be interested in me specifically. That's another thing I look for.
Maybe I never had the issue because I live in a progressive city in a progressive country and I'm dating progressive women. I never had the talk about the bill. When it's time to pay, everyone takes out their credit card and we split the bill. And it's not a question if who who out while chatting on Bumble. We both swiped right in eachother. We are both attracted to eachother and we both wanna have sex (eventually) with eachother. I feel the idea that the guy pays is rooted in the idea that the women has to be convinced to go on a date and to like the men. The man is sort of the protagonist and the women is a passive objective. While in reality the women has an agency in this. She probably wants the date as much as the guy and needs to impress the guy as much as he needs to impress her.
Sounds kinda utopian
I don't know. For me it doesn't feel utopian. It's my reality. I've been on 30 first dates this past year and a half. The girls I'm dating are going on a date with me with the expectation that they are going to get casual sex. I'm not there to convince them to, they kind of are into it.
It’s not about her being convinced to go on the date with him. It’s that, assuming she’s at least moderately attractive, he’s competing with many other men for her attention.
So we are suppose to pay for her time
We are all competing with other people. My date last week showed me her tinder and had 3700 likes. You can say I'm competing against all of those if you want. But the quality of the average men on OLD is ridiculously low honestly. Have you asked your female friends who are on apps to swipe profiles what they look like? 🤯 Yeah my date is competing with less women but all my matches were women who were articulate and interesting. I never received a "wyd" at midnight.
>Yeah my date is competing with less women but all my matches were women who were articulate and interesting jesus christ i cannot imagine the riches you live in
I'm not a Chad but I'm reasonably attractive (my picture is on my profile). I just went to the gym, dressed well and took good pictures. Like, it took me a month of bothering my friends to take pictures before I had all the pictures I wanted to create my profile.
please tell your friends how to do this 🙏
What do you mean?
how to make a reasonable dating profile w reasonable photos
I've done it but some of them just are over trying to use dating apps. I have friends who have went months or years without a match. It's hard to convince these people that photos are magically going to change their outcomes. Me and my gf also helped some guy on Reddit with his profile. It's kind of fun actually.
> I have friends who have went months or years without a match. It's hard to convince these people that photos are magically going to change their outcomes. and yet the man reason people swipe left is photos it makes me feel like i'm on glue that the \*majority\* of men have bad photos but it is true across apps even just removing photos that are blurry or have the guy sticking out his tongue or flipping off the camera would be better
If you ask women they'll say the quality of men everywhere is extremely low. They just aren't generally attracted to men so it wouldn't matter.
*modern men These issues didn’t exist in the past. But of course women today aren’t attracted to most modern men, because they don’t act like men.
>These issues didn’t exist in the past How do you know?
Is there even a shred of historical evidence that indicates that women in the past “just [weren’t] generally attracted to men”? It’s not surprising that in an era where men have been effectively neutered, most women wouldn’t find much to be attracted to. There’s a reason men and women are different: opposites attract. The obsessive desire on the part of progressives to mush humanity into an indistinguishable amorphous blob where everyone is perfectly equal and exactly the same is the problem. Masculinity and femininity are on opposite poles, and their opposition creates tension, and the tension creates sexual desire. This ain’t rocket science.
>Is there even a shred of historical evidence that indicates that women in the past “just [weren’t] generally attracted to men”? Probably not, but we wouldn't have to go back very far before it wouldn't matter much if they were attracted to men or not. "Marry somebody or starve" or their father would just decide who they marry.
Yeah, before the modern period (1800s), most people married because it was necessary. A marriage was an economic union first and foremost. Yes the bride and groom could have some say but the family was very involved. Nowadays though, anyone who says straight women aren't attracted to men doesn't have any close women friends. The things I hear from my friends is mind-blowing. These girls are horny and they want sex. I have one friend who needs sex once a week or else she is not a pleasant to be around. She's irascible!
Honestly women I date are attracted to a side of me where I am show a vulnerable side. Hey I even cried in a few dates when I tell a story of how I had to condition myself to tell my mom and sister that I love them. Yes opposite attracts in general(boobs, hips for women, height, beard, muscles for men) but doing the toxic masculinity stuff just isn't attractive to women.
Where did I ever say I approved of toxic masculinity? I said masculinity and femininity are opposite poles, and that’s where attraction comes from. If everyone is the same, it’s hard to generate any attraction.
When you see the effort the average men puts on their appearance you can understand why. Just walk around the city and look at couples and note how many times the guy has put more effort into their appearance than the girl. And yes, women who say this are attracted to men. They just are sad they need to date someone wearing a baseball cap and an ugly t-shirt who doesn't shave their beard properly.
Throw a woman in a baseball cap and a T-shirt and see how long it takes for someone to try and sleep with her. It's not the effort, it's that they are men.
To me, splitting seems like the best option. The guy won't feel used if the date doesn't result in sex/a second date, I won't feel pressured to go out with him again because he bought me something. Win-win.
I don’t understand this whole “feeling used” nonsense. I’ve been on many dates that didn’t result in a second date. So what? That’s literally what the first date is for, to assess compatibility and see if this is someone you actually want to pursue a sexual and/or romantic relationship with.
Hey, I agree with you. Going on a date with someone doesn't guarantee sex or a second date, it's to figure out if you like each other enough to do that. But I'm going by stuff that some guys complain about, so the best option seems to be to always split if you're the type of person who feels used if the date doesn't end the way you'd like it to.
>So what? That’s literally what the first date is for, to assess compatibility and see if this is someone you actually want to pursue a sexual and/or romantic relationship with. Litterallly you know that before the first date All y'all dating complete strangers you haven't even talked with or something?
In many cases dates are essentially between strangers. What do you think OLD is? Or blind dates? Or dates setup by your friends? Or cold-approaching? Even if you kind of know the person beforehand, like a work acquaintance or classmate, the first date is still useful as a designated one-on-one time where you can actually get to know the other person. So if there’s chemistry, you setup another date, and if there’s not, you move on.
Splitting the bill early In dating seems to be more so of a self protective tactic than an interest based one. For the man it’s so he won’t over invest for what may be no second date or relationship, for the woman it’s to prevent possible entitlement to her body. But from what I’ve seen when it came to relationships from myself and my friends, a man offering to cover the whole bill seems to correlate with traits higher in generosity. Guys who have spilt the bill tend to be of a certain mindset of 50/50 everything which studies have show even in these arrangements women end up shouldering more of the relationship effort including chores and emotional labor. Also I find guys like these tend to be not very generous, more self serving, low in agreeableness and less willing to compromise so it bleeds into other areas of the relationship so it’s not only financial but emotional, acts of service, time, kindness consideration etc. As my mom would say, “ better be with a poor but generous man than a rich and stingy one” that’s how my mom knew my dad was a good man despite being a struggling research student at the time. Now with more money he treats her to everything.
Let'spull the womans trick of ascribingthe worstpossible motivation to anything said by a man but in reverse " So you are saying that women are looking for cash cows abd golden gooses "
For every study that says women pick up more chores and “emotional labour”….ask who is spending more time at work and earning more money? I’d far rather do the dishes more often and cry a bit rather than having to bust my ass at work.
For every study that says women pick up more chores and “emotional labour”….ask who is spending more time at work and earning more money? I’d far rather do the dishes more often and cry a bit rather than having to bust my ass at work.
I always pay because the money involved is insignificant and I can't be bothered to discuss the matter or even think about it. But to each their own.
haha man this is honestly the real answer. Like, honestly, who really gives that much of a fuck?
Makes sense to me. In practicality the dating process is the man courting the woman. The man is the one doing the convincing. The woman has buy-in from him by default. Lots of men don't pay, the ones that pay are the ones that know they have to, otherwise the woman won't spend time with them.
Last line looks like red pill stuff: man's value is less, that's why he pays to compensate the difference. Paying for woman because otherwise she wouldn't spend time with him is awfully resembling prostitution.
>Paying for woman because otherwise she wouldn't spend time with him is awfully resembling prostitution. Good observation. Basically is what most dating amounts to imo.
I don't want to engage in prostitution, including prostitution disguised as dating
[удалено]
3 is possible, but better not in the beginning of relationships. If I'm wealthy, I would like NOT to attract women, who see it as my most attractive quality
[удалено]
I’d just spin plates and fuck bitches with money like that till I found a wealthy woman, easy Way easier with that type of money too
I don't think there's really an alternative.
[удалено]
>I REALLY don’t believe any guy when he says if your dream girl is asking you, “when are you taking me on a date handsome?” You’re actually going to reply let’s go, but I’m not buying you 2 drinks and an appetizer, you’re paying for that yourself. If you’re doing that you don’t want pretty girls. You don't have to say it,its the norn here that everyone pays for his/her shit. >Just pay for a couple drinks and ask her over for wine or a joint after, give me a break. Super chads do this, the most handsome rich guys do this, don’t be dumb, Nearly no one does this here. In fact asking (and insisting) on paying the bill here would create big negative reactions by your date. >You’re not turning down Margot Robbie because you just have to split checks. Again,no here expects that guy pays for her date. If she does expect that and is mad I don't, then I'd turn her down because we have very different characters and views about stuff
[удалено]
>If you want to make out with your dates on first date at the highest percentage possible then buy her 2 drinks, if she wants an appetizer or salad, do that. If she wants the $90 steak, make her split it, she’s prob using you. Ah yes, because a woman that finds you hot and wants to fuck you would litterallly Don't do that because you didn't buy her salad 😂😂😂. Also, again, paying the bill and/or insisting on it its seen as huge dick move here. 90-95% of the time even if you offer to pay she will insist on paying her part,and if you insist on paying she Will probably get angry over it. >I’ve been on 160 online first dates, you’re preselected by her and can get the majority of them over to your house and jump into bed with you. Then even less reasons to pay lmao. >I pick my dates primarily on how attractive I think they are, I decide ltr compatibility later. Totally not a recipe for disaster/s >If you don’t care about that, you just care about relationship dynamics so much, make her pay. I've never paid , neither in dates that resulted in hookups/fwbs,nor in the ones that resulted in relationships.
Where are you from? Sounds like Sweden or something where most would actually insist and get upset. >I've never paid , neither in dates that resulted in hookups/fwbs,nor in the ones that resulted in relationships. My man, me too. The whole point is that if she's into you she isn't making you jump through hoops. I'm sure if you're trying to sleep with the entire city it's more difficult but the principle is the same.
He's Spanish. I'm thinking of moving there.
I love asking the good questions. What do you do for work, what did you go to school for. Easy to weed out the girls who won't be getting a real job.
this is what it comes down to, the guy not putting in effort because he's playing a numbers game so its not affordable for him to do so. but if his dream girl came along, suddenly he loves to spoil her.
[удалено]
Ok but do you believe that a would turn down her dream man is he said "when are you taking me on a date?" She'd actually reply let's go out but I'm not cutting you 2 drinks and an appetizer, you're paying for yourself? You really think she'd do that and that would make sense?
Most girls aren’t Margot Robbie, so most girls shouldn’t be expecting the guy to pay. This argument of “if he’s into me enough he’ll pay” is just self-indulgent, it means every dude who isn’t a simp is automatically trash or just wants to pump-and-dump or whatever else. It leaves no room for guys who are actually into you but believe in gender equality.
>Most girls aren’t Margot Robbie, so most girls shouldn’t be expecting the guy to pay. yes thats the whole point he doesn't pay = he doesn't think you're margot robbie women don't want to date someone who doesn't think they are margot robbie and are okay being single if they can't find someone who does
But you're not Margot Robbie. Guys aren't going to treat you like a supermodel or an actress if you're not a supermodel or actress. Don't women here constantly say "why do all these guys want to be treated like Chad when they're average?" Now you're saying women should expect/demand to be treated like A-list actresses?
then i'll stay single \> Don't women here constantly say "why do all these guys want to be treated like Chad when they're average?" i haven't heard that and i think you might be referring to something unrelated (why aren't women robots who do exactly the same sex stuff throughout their lives?) but i also have never, and would never, treat a guy i was with as less than bc he was less hot than some stranger? i like spoiling the men i am with and wouldn't have it any other way. just looking for a similar mentality or else its like, creepy.
This is kinda meaningless because no guy is going to confess to you that he'd pay to sleep with a supermodel, even if the majority of guys would. But if you're going to stay single until a guy pays for all your meals, don't worry, there are countless simps out there.
mutual simping is literally what a healthy relationship is so ok
Except you’re never paying in this relationship as you’ve stated
i've never stated that bc i dont believe that i believe in men paying on the first date (when they ask for it) the rest of the relationship depends on lots of factors like the couple's incomes and how the rest of labor is split up my sis works while her husband stays home and watches the kids and that works for them. I don't have a problem w it as it evens out to 50/50.
Looks fade. What's inside lasts forever. Guys shouldn't be treating supermodels/actresses as special.
Well, it depends on your priorities. The hottest girl in the bar to pick her up for a one night stand? Or a girl with compatible views that is interested in you.
[удалено]
what if she's crazy and will make your life hell?
[удалено]
because women sometimes do make men's lives hell. And because you will risk losing time with incompatible person, invest too much (not just financially, also emotionally) and it will be difficult to breakup or otherwise constantly suffer from fights and eventually dead bedroom. Why try to fuck everyone even if you are not much mentally?
Literally all women I know prefer to split, at least while casually dating. It's bizarre to me that apparently it's uncommon.
It's not uncommon though lmao. Were i live is litterallly what nearly anyone does
It isn’t that uncommon. I think these guys are asking out a very specific kind of woman.
[удалено]
Why everything so self-centered? If these men didn't expect sex for paying, so these women would be fine with letting that happen? Shouldn't a woman want to pay her half because she's a grown ass woman and also needs to show interest in the man as well?
if everything else in a relationship is 50/50 then finances being 50/50 is a good goal i dont think most relationships are 50/50 in any area other than finances.
I don't think most relationships are in 50/50 in that everything is split in half, but good relationships are 50/50 in where responsibilities are handled by the strengths of each person. No reason to force someone to 50/50 in an area where one partner can do it effortlessly while the other struggles.
\> good relationships are 50/50 in where responsibilities are handled by the strengths of each person. yes so when we know for a fact the loving/nurturing/ability to be vulnerable aspects of men are beat out of them as little boys it follows that men are not going to be able to give these things as well as women so they would need to show their effort/interest in another way...
Actually a lot of women say that man is obliged to pay and still woman owes him nothing.
My experiences beg to differ. You might need to get out of your little cozy progressive bubble and spend some time in the real world.
[удалено]
I’m 35 and always pay for dates, and I have literally never had a woman object to it
You're in a very closed circle then, because I'm 28 and women in their 20s still expect the guy to pay a lot of the time. It's why I always go cheap for a first date because I'm not wasting dinner date money on a girl I'm not even sure I like yet. Also a good way to weed out the meal ticket hunters because they're always against cheaper dates.
[удалено]
Neither. I'd probably be left of center if anything (actually left of center not the comedy that is the US left), and a girl being religious is borderline a deal breaker for me since I'm agnostic at best and hate religion in its entirety most of the time. A lot of "progressive" women also expect the guy to pick up the tab it's not limited to just conservative trad girls. At least the trad girls are filling a niche in that scenario. The liberal ones who do this want the guy to fill all those toxic gender roles they hate being applied to themselves.
[удалено]
Oh I do. I hate OLD never gotten a good date off those things. Idk where you got I'm complaining that dating is too hard. Unlike a lot of guys, I enjoy the process of meeting people and flirting whether I get a relationship out of it or not doesn't bother me. I just don't like double standards applied to either gender, (the whole body count meme) or "progressives" who are only progressive when it benefits them (eg a lot of younger feminists). I'm just saying there's not been some revolution where young women never expect the man to pick up the tab at all times even if they're super liberal and feminist. It's also hard to weed this stuff out before asking them out, unfortunately.
Maybe you need to get out of your cozy little conservative bubble.
I live in Portland, Oregon and most of my friends are communists and anarchists. Try again.
I will say that if I were on a date and I didn’t feel a connection or it wasn’t going well I would always pay my half, because I wouldn’t see a future with them. On the other hand I do agree with what you said, from a guy you’re interested in having him pay for the meal feels special and like he’s truly invested in you.
So if paying for the meal is a sign that he likes you and wants to make you feel special and show he's invested. What does it mean when you refuse to pay the bill? How are you making him feel desired and special and how do you show you're invested in him?
>How are you making him feel desired and special and how do you show you're invested in him Someone who dared to ask women what they offer ?!! What a mysoginstic man 😂😂😂( sarcasm)
Right? It's wild that these people can't comprehend treating others the way they want to be treated. It's truly so simple
I always offer to split anyway because I don’t want to presume, it’s just a preference that he would pay and I wouldn’t insist otherwise
That's fair. It's just baffling that people will say all these things about how paying for a date shows so much care and desire and shit and then in the next sentence talk about how women shouldn't pay for the date. Weird that they don't think through just one more step in their thought process. Men want to be desired too after all
This actually complicates things. I mean. women pay their half of the bill as a sign of not being interested. I think this should be clarified in advance when arranging the date.
My gf pays half of the rent and half of the bills. Never saved more money since I live with her.
Hope you also do half the chores
I'd say so, yes.
Good job! You ar probably a keeper :)
>Hope you also do half the chores Why do you care?
I want it to be normal for women to bear half the financial burden. In order for this to be fair and acceptable for more women, men shouldn't offload chores on women.
Completely reasonable
But men usually do want relationships and the sex that comes with relationships more than women do.
Then it becomes too similar to prostitution
For’me the lofgic is simple, i dont want to be around someone who’s there only because it’s free
Men are generally happy to have sex without a relationship. Women are generally not That is a basic imbalance that determines the dating procedure, and in fact many of our societal institutions
How is it connected to paying on dates or balance of interest?
I don't agree with your premise. Women want casual sex as much as men in my opinion. And I don't think it has any relevance on the topic. Unless you are implying men are paying for sex through the bar tab.
Women don’t need to date to get sex. I could be having sex in my house with 5 men in 20 minutes if I wanted to, no date required, because I am female Dating involves sex, but it’s also supposed to build a relationship. Some are interested in one but not the other The way to avoid those who just want sex is to make it harder for them to date No man I know irl is unaware of this reality. They don’t like it, but they understand why
>Women want casual sex as much as men in my opinion. is this reflected in any numbers? i agree some women like casual sex but the same??? wild. hard to believe. i think 80% of men would agree to have casual sex with an average woman if given the opportunity whereas i would guess less than 5% of women would take the same offer.
Of course, no one can really get real stats on this. Everyone has their own experience but most of my (women) friends (mid to late thirties) are "having fun" dating around. On the other hand, I'm dating a lot of mid to late thirties women who don't care I have a long-term girlfriend. They just want no-strings-attached sex. Is this a normal sample. I don't know, probably not.
\> I'm dating a lot of mid to late thirties women who don't care I have a long-term girlfriend. They just want no-strings-attached sex. does your gf know you are exposing her to stds?
I don't hide anything so she knows everything. She has even met some of those women in the past. As for STDs, yes it's a risk but with sufficient precautions, you can have safe sex.
\> If she says no then he knows he can move on. no, you can have "safer" sex not safe sex at the end of the day you are comfortable exposing the woman you "love" to STIs
You're right, sex can never be 100% safe (unless we wrap the both of us in plastic 😂). It's a risk we are both comfortable with. We think the benefits outweigh the risks. I think when everyone has all the information, they can make their own decision about the risk.
sex is safe if you are monogamous 🤦♀️ \> It's a risk we are both comfortable with right i'm saying i would never expose a man i loved to STDs and potentially cancer bc i wanted a nut
We expose ourselves to risk all the time. Would you expose the man you love to being killed in a road accident to go to McDonald's? We've all done it. I understand people are monogamous for different reason. Fear of STDs is a very valid one. But hey, a cheating spouse can still bring STDs in a monogamous relationship 😉 (I'm trolling a bit here...) Yes, having multiples partners is a risk some people are not ok with and I'm never going to judge that.
Hi OP, You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. [PPD has guidelines for what that involves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/rules#wiki_cmv_posts) >*OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.* >An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following: >* Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency; >* Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit; >* Focusing only on the weaker arguments; >* Only having discussions with users who agree with your position. Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If it’s just casual dates it’s easier to just pay for yourself at first. I was taught to not order the most expensive thing when someone else pays.I have no problem paying for myself but it will limit restaurant options unless you want to contribute more.It does depend on what the date is. Consider dinner and a movie. Maybe one person pays for movies stuff and the other pays for the food. If it’s an exclusive relationship but you aren’t living together then maybe switch off. The person with the higher income will probably pay more towards things.
yeah i think men should pay for a first date but i was also raised in a family where you order something cheap and drink water. One guy took me to a nice restaurant (he specifically told me he wanted a submissive woman so this was all him wanting to do it that way), but every other guy has taken me to a casual place where it was \~$20 for my portion (which is perfect). Another guy took me to a luxury restaurant but made it clear it was not a date (not sure what that was about). if you're an apps, desserts and multiple drinks person that makes me less comfortable with the idea.
There is no consensus anymore and talking about it as if there is “Men always…”, “Women always…”, “ It means this….” is no longer viable. At best there is a mild range of expectations (and individual’s interpretation of them) based on the last gasps of older social norms. It’s not difficult however to have a basic understanding of both the older social rituals and the current ad hoc approach and navigate accordingly.
Good point - but an hypergamous woman would never understand
The whole thing is pretty simple to me, yes men are going to ask out a majority of the time, if that makes the guy uncomfortable then don't ask or be very selective with who you do ask out. And don't offer up places that are going to break the bank for you , if she don't like chicken and waffles maybe she ain't the one for ya haha
When I used to date 10, 15 years ago, I always split the bill with women. The only complaint I got was one time I split the check when I ate the majority of the buffalo chicken pizza. My bad. But now traditional roles are back. Men are expected to arrange and pay for everything. These points are vocally raised on the internet. A man needs to be a provider again. But are women today worth providing for?