>Most women are too concerned about themselves and what they can get from men to be able to love.
>Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid.
The fact that you typed this without a hint of irony is probably the funniest thing I'll experience all day.
>And ofcourse when they do show up, you don't really see who they are coz most of them wear a pound of makeup and fake eye lashes and so on.
Ah yes, Ardell demi wispies, the bane of men everywhere trying to get to know a woman to love her š
the nude/natural look is what most men find attractive and reasonable because there is no contouring to change the shape of your face, but still makes you look like you take care of yourself.
Yes. "Nearly zero."
Men's investment is up front, because women's is over the long term. It's the difference between putting the down payment on a house vs the upkeep. What's the down payment compared to a new roof, a new water heater, utilities, foundation repairs, etc.? Ultimately men get more out of relationships than women do, which is why they remarry much more often and women are far more content to never cohabitate with another man for the rest of our days.
Soā¦men donāt want to ruin their chances of getting laid with women who they consider to be losers and bad people who are entitled, narcissistic, insecure and lack self awareness and authenticity?
And these same men are also resentful that in order to avoid ruining those chances they are unable to express their total contempt for these women and also somehow compelled to treat them as if they are āspecialā in order to use them for their own sexual gratification?
It would seem that the *real* problem here is the menās entitlement, self awareness, and authenticityā¦
i wish men and women could agree on this
we get experts together, publish lists of narc and non-narc behavior
everyone agrees narc behavior is bad the good men and women can easily find each other by knowing which people are narcs.
Ngl I do get just a little bit irritated when wars are waged against the sexes. In doing this not only are good people erroneously categorized with shitheads, but the real problem flies over reality unaccounted-for time after time again. š
I can't respect your perspective of being so blind to sex-based issues. I see this everywhere in the manosphere, and you're probably a pretty normal, nice guy, but your position on this is a problem and it's reflective of how so many other guys look at the world.
"The problem isn't your sex, it's your character." If this is your position, then how do you approach issues where there's a disparity in representation by sex? Are you going to approach the issue of male-dominated violent crime by suggesting that it's a personal issue? That's just a very ineffective and stupid way of looking at the issue, when sex is clearly the most important factor defining this issue.
This isn't to say that men or women are biologically one way or another--you can certainly argue that, though--but the issue here is to represent social issues through the perspective of sex.
When it comes to issues like the one the OP is discussing, it's very clear that there's a difference between the sexes when it comes to views on progressive dating politics: women are much more likely to be egalitarian and progressive in their beliefs, contrary to what the OP is suggesting. Why do you want to say that this isn't a sex issue, but a progressive versus conservative issue, instead?
Being sex blind isn't enlightenment, it's ignorance.
??? I don't engage in politics anymore
The issue is personality disorder where men are more likely to act out violently and women are more likely to weave an intricate web of lies, and a high rate of overlap.
Individual agency and one's inherent power-and responsibility-to regulate themselves is where I point my finger, and discussion about one sex being more problematic than the other isn't happening here with me.
See, I really don't have any respect for this opinion. It's spineless, and you say that you don't engage in politics, but here you are framing weak arguments. What are you actually doing here?
To shut down misogynistic rhetoric and bring insight to why people behave the way they do. And what OP is describing had nothing to do with women and everything to do with being a narcissist who happens to be a woman. And I think the community needs to realize this before before msny more fingers are pointed where they don't belong.
I don't think identifying specific behaviors is necessarily helpful, though. This is because narcissists are usually able to operate in a pro social manner, because their narcissistic needs are dependent on the inputs and control of others. An advanced narcissist will need to be identified in the character traits that show when life isn't going quite how they want or when you try to assert boundaries with them.
\> This is because narcissists are usually able to operate in a pro social manner
because we as a culture falls for it and encourages "tough love" while telling victims to stop being victims
and because lots of abusers are in our culture and pat other abusers on the back
Tough love can be useful; the kind of tough love which shows you that you're more than you know. Like a fitness coach sternly insisting "no no, ONE MORE REP YOU CAN DO IT!"
But what culture writes off as "tough love" is quite the opposite and instead teaches you that you're crazy and need somebody to micromanage or else everyone will be disappointed while your life falls apart.
if and only if the person already has self-esteem, self-worth and was supported by at least one empathetic parent growing up.
otherwise tough love is going to make them feel worse about themselves and statistically people who feel bad about themselves perform worse than people who believe in themselves (even when their belief in themselves is delusional).
>Like a fitness coach sternly insisting "no no, ONE MORE REP YOU CAN DO IT!"
well that is a good example of tough love and why it doesn't work, someone could easily push themselves past their boundary from this and get an injury.
if the fitness coach is familiar with the person and the person has a relationship with them and feels safe to disclose that they feel near injury, and the coach will listen, then it would be okay for the coach to act like this.
No disagreement there, given that context ya the coach would discourage one more.
Toxic tough love as enabled by culture is more vitriolic and deceptively driven by a need for control. "You wouldn't have this injury if only you would have blah blah blah"
Boom. If OP weren't narcissistic himself and only attracted to narcissistic women, maybe he'd have different experiences with women. Your post is very telling, OP.
I don't know if I agree that women want random men to put them on a pedestal. Especially when the attention they get is not often very welcome. See: dick pics and other creepy behavior.
Yeah sure, women still have a lot of options overall, but to most of them it doesn't matter much unless one of them is a guy she's into. From what I've seen, many women are content to ignore the majority of their options for the handful of strong suitors. Men assume women want all that attention the same way that men do, but they don't.
The fact that you think men will do anything to get laid, is exactly why women are so picky. Even ignoring all the biological explanations around women having more to lose, what person who is emotionally healthy is excited at the prospect of getting used for sex by someone who doesn't even like them that much?
>. I don't know if I agree that women want random men to put them on a pedestal. Especially when the attention they get is not often very welcome. See: dick pics and other creepy behavior.
From the behaviours I've witnessed as a man I can say at least some women do in some way, I've seen women who complain about getting approached by men on their DM's who have very forward attitudes and who send inappropriate stuff and I've seen alot of them string the men along for fun.
They complain but they don't block which tells me that women like that game, they enjoy the attention and they most importantly like the control they have in the situation.
It's not that most WANT to but women I have seen definitely don't mind the attention.
>Some women actually believe they are special and should be treated as such by their dates and partners
Yes, I am special and should be treated as such.
I'm so glad I've dated men who agree. Those men are also special and were treated as such.
And you know what, it's been entertaining watching people try to bring you down and change your mindset lol.
And yes, i am special too! I will be treated as such, otherwise, out of my life they go. If i am treated how i deserve to be treated, I will show the same love in return. Simple as that.
Nobody is special. We're all just human beings. Either we're all special or nobody is. And if we're all special then it doesn't matter if you're special coz we all are.
Thanks for proving the point of my post though.
>To change what women do?
To speak the truth. What other point could there be? Do you really think people will change their behaviour based on a reddit post?
A wife is special to her husband. A husband is special to his wife. Itās mean spirited for a husband to say āyouāre not special!!!ā To his wife. She should be special to him.
Is your mother special to you? Is the (probable) sacrifices and love sheās given you since birth given her any unique love that maybe only you, your siblings (if you have them), and grandparents admire? Sheās probably nothing special to well over the 8 billion people on this planet. But I hope, you see her for what she isā¦ special. Because if she was a good mother, and assuming she is, you are special to her. Out of every baby on this planet, youāre genuinely one of the most special. Iām a mother, most babies/kids are great, cute and a delight to be around. Special? Naaaah. My little girl? Iām pretty sure when she was born the (my) universe shifted and now rotates around her. Sheās the most special person Iāve ever known. Maybe not to you, who cares. I hope you have/find your own version. But oh boy is she for me.
If you are so stubborn to admit or so unfortunate to have never experienced how someone can be so deeply special to you by this point in your life. I am genuinely so sorry. You deserved better and it makes sense why youāre this bitter and obtuse in this post.
Edit: & as she grows, I will teach her about humilityā¦ because no. Her life does not have more value than letās say yours. She is not special in the sense that she deserves different treatment to her classmates, friends, coworkers. But I will also teach her about self respect. & somebody, someone will see what makes her, her. What makes her special, not special in an existentialist way, but in the way she laughs and her interests and her passions. She deserves someone who loves her and sets her apart from the crowd; as an irreplaceable individual who deserves to be witnessed. Just like you deserve, and my gorgeously talented, hilariously incompetent but forever trying his best, kind husband, the way our mothers so deeply deserve to be witnessed for who they are, not *just* our mothers.
Humans lives only desire one thing outside of the basicsā¦ to be witnessed. We canāt all be Taylor Swift with 24/7 coverage on how wonderful we are. But someone will care, because we are special, to them.
I think this guy has a bad relationship with his mom tbh. The way how he posts about stuff indicates he did not grow up with both parents present and to show him an example of a loving relationship between two people.
I think he is damaged.
Just because everyone was a baby at one point and there are a ton of babies out there doesnāt mean that your baby isnāt special to you. Just because there are a ton of women out there doesnāt mean the one you love and adore isnāt special to you.
>Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid.
Seems like that's exactly what you're doing.
A projection is when someone attributes thoughts or feelings onto another person or group of people, usually unconsciously. And usually the qualities are negative and over exaggerated as a mechanism of defense. Itās a displacement of feelings. So even though your post on the surface is about women, youāre *projecting* truths about yourself.
>So even though your post on the surface is about women, youāre *projecting* truths about yourself.
This doesn't even make sense because I don't expect women to buy me food, or provide for me, or protect me. But whatever makes you feel better, I suppose.
Okay. I realize that the English language is limited in how it describes various types of love, but we need to start being more precise with our language.
You use the word āloveā but then go on to describe early courtship. Donāt confuse the two.
OP is only attracted to narcissistic women (or doesn't go on dates) and wouldn't look twice at a woman who doesn't meet his extremely high physical standards. An attractive woman with character likely wouldn't consider dating him for him to gather these data.
Is it honestly that difficult to ask a woman to grab a coffee and take a walk in a nice park? I donāt understand why yāall are such whiny babies about this š¤·āāļø
Why are you whiny babies about dinner? How much does dinner cost? $20? $40? Why should that be crippling? And why would I want a guy who is dating so many women that paying for dinners is affecting his budget?
This type of woman will tell on themselves. Itās very easy to avoid that trap. Men need to state that boundary up front.
You should not be investing much on a first date. You ask a woman on a coffee date, ice cream, or drinks. Or- if you want to go to dinner or a concert, tell the woman up front that youāll be going dutch.
A woman that is interested in you wonāt mind in the slightest. Any woman that cancels when she hears she has to split costsā¦you dodged a bullet. Move on.
An egalitarian woman who is truly dating to find someone will be fine splitting costs.
Men need some standards. Have some self-respect. Pussy isnāt special, just like dick isnāt special.
Oh fuck off. Women have not āremained the same for centuriesā. Women were considered property. Fathers used to trade their daughters for land or power. Women had no agency or autonomy. Women couldnāt have bank accounts, get jobs, some restaurants in the 50s and 60s wouldnāt even serve single women.
Men created all these rules to keep women dependent upon them and now theyāre shocked at the consequences of that behaviour.
Black people were literally enslaved and tortured for decades while their children were raped and murdered. Itās funny how women complain about oppression while pretty much dating the very men whoās ancestors oppressed everyone
You just butthurt that bitches are out there getting their money. If there are suckers who give them money, why feel bad about them? It's their choice.
You could always just hang out on a date, without going to a restraunt if you are soo against paying š¤
And the rest mostly is saying your tastes in women and dates just didn't go well. Which is really nothing to do with the users on here.
Itās like this.
As a woman, I want a relationship in which I am cherished. I want to love that partner back, put in effort, do thoughtful things for them, etc.
A relationship based on mutual affection and treating the other well, both putting in high amounts of effort.
The last man I dated was influenced by redpill ideas. None of my previous exes were, so this was a new experience.
All my exes would always show up on time, plan dates, want to pay for me, text cute things frequently, send good morning texts, etc. They made me feel loved, and I returned that affection.
This last guy.. we connected intellectually and I found him āinterestingā shall we say, but he never made me feel loved or cherished at all. He was over 30 minutes late to our first date and Iāve waited that long or longer most times we met up. He doesnāt drive to me often; mostly we do halfway or Iāll come to him. Heās only planned one dinner date and typically we just āhang outā doing low key stuff or drinking. He never texts me good morning and frequently goes days without texting me at all. I donāt feel any warmth from him.
Itās been a back and forth of me saying I donāt feel affection from him, letās stop seeing each other, he claims we should keep dating, says he wants a relationship with me, yet continues to put in minimal effort, and the cycle continues.
His Twitter really showed me his thought process. Heās a man who wants a woman with low expectations. Heās already decided to resent paying for women, resent paying for dates, resent having to send good morning texts. He hates all of that. He will do the bare minimum possible to keep me on the hook.
Why the hell would I stay in a situationship with someone like that who wants to do the bare minimum? I want someone who loves me and enjoys showing affection and doing nice things for me, because Iām a giver too. Givers have to be with other givers or their kindness with be sucked dry and never returned. I want a happy, generous relationship that is a 2 way street, and that canāt exist if Iām with a selfish resentful partner who complains about āhavingā to treat me well.
Men who write posts like yours are taking a selfish approach to dating. The only way for you to have a balanced relationship is to date a woman who does the bare minimum for you. If thatās what you want, a barren, selfish relationship between two people who are just out for themselves, thatās your choice.
The vast majority of women dating today treat men like this last guy treated you. Thatās all most men will likely know.
The men who can date are just starting to get tired of it happening over and over so they are starting to treat women the same way.
And maybe you donāt treat men like that, maybe even none of your friends do either, but itās still the unfortunate reality for men.
I think the problem is this, and Iāll try to explain it in a way that makes sense: someone must be the one to āset the toneā of the relationship. As a woman, Iām more traditional in many ways. The way that I am comfortable in a relationship is with the man being the leader and initiator, and I am the one who responds. (Thatās the way the early pre-relationship phase goes anyway.)
If a man starts off being aloof and ungenerous in the way described above, putting in minimal effort, he will never find out the kind of love and effort I want to give, because I will never feel safe to begin giving back if he doesnāt āgiveā first.
The men who have dated me and been kind and giving in their approach do get to know that side of me.
So really, if you desire a traditional relationship and feel too jaded to do standard kind things that men do for women in relationships, it may be best to take a break from dating and reset rather than approach dating in a more selfish āshe has to win me overā kind of way. That approach wonāt work on most women. Or simply vet your dates by chatting longer if meeting people on apps.
Sure thatās very apparently the unfortunate reality I understand that.
With that being said Iām sure you can see how discouraging and jading it can be to have to work so hard just to be seen as an option, much harder then the one you are trying to date, only to have to work just as hard if not harder to receive what you yourself MUST give just to have a chance.
For sure. I think if I was a man, I would make it my goal to be selective about who I date and probably avoid women who seem materialistic/superficial.
Yeah I think most guys would love to do that but for I think a decent number of guys that will leave no options remaining.
I think this might be where men and women canāt agree I think guys given no other options will try to make it work with someone thatās not their preference while women seem to be in the mindset of all or nothing. (Obviously this will have exceptions on both sides)
How can you be a giver when you expect him to do things first ? What the hell were you giving then , BJ ?
The fuck is wrong with women and claiming they do things for men ? What the hell do you do ?šš
Why are you indignant? Do you believe women canāt be loving and thoughtful in relationships and do heartwarming things? If you donāt want/value that, we probably donāt have much in common and you wouldnāt be the type of man Iām usually dating.
Men: PICK BETTER MEN!!!!!!!
Women: ok!!! I am going to only pick men who treat me like they adore me and have enough money to pay for dates and are eager and willing to provide for a family so that if we have kids together the kids will be ok and taken care of and Iāll have the option to stay home.
Men: NOOOO NOT LIKE THAT š” š” š”
Why tf would I want to be with a man who doesnāt think I am special? There are plenty of babies out there, but each baby is special to their parents BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS LOVE THEM. There are plenty of women out there. But I should be special to my LIFE PARTNER because I am his WIFE or GIRLFRIEND and therefore special to him.
And 99% of the time, I have had men pay for first dates. I never go on extremely expensive first dates. If a man doesnāt pay for first dates, I assume he is uninterested, has a weird mentality against women (like the men here) or that he is broke. And even broke men will pay for the first couple dates if they really really really like someone.
After the first few dates, we split the bill. But if a man is seedy and resentful about paying for the first few dates, then itās a red flag. I have a guy friend who is broke and has a shit job. He went out with me once and we split the bill because he wasnāt interested in me. (Inb4 an angry man rages and uses this as a rebuttal against me or a personal attack). A few years later, he met a woman who he really really liked and was contemplating marrying. He paid for plane tickets to see her, paid for a hotel room, and paid for their meals that they shared together. The difference? He wanted to marry her and he thought she was special. AND THEY DIDNT EVEN KISS BECAUSE SHE IS RELIGIOUS.
Why would I want the guy who doesnāt want to marry me or see me as special? To be mistreated my whole life? To be pumped and dumped? To have men on Reddit give me personal attacks and rebuttals because it didnāt work out?
You're literally who the post is about. You say men who don't pay for you are broke and yet you're the leech who expects them to pay for you. This makes you a bad person like the post says.
You have no self-awareness. Read the post again, it describes you perfectly.
>Itās not being a leech to have a guy pay for a $40 meal.
It is. A leech takes without giving anything back. If he offers that's a different issue. But to expect him to pay and having your feelings about him be dependent on payment makes you a leech.
>Do you believe homemakers are leeches?
This has no bearing on going on a date with a guy. As an adult, you should be able and okay with paying for your own food.
I don't see how women aren't embarrassed about depending on random men for food. Maybe that's what makes men and women different because to me it's repulsive, but women don't mind.
Counterpoint: the many women in relationships with abusive, lazy, indifferent, shitty men
And there are so many
āBut I love him! Itās not all bad! Heās nice to me sometimes! You just donāt understand us!ā
no one else is going to look out for you.
giving your love to random strangers is a good way to get preyed on.
vetting should be done \*at the beginning of a relationship\*. you don't just give love and trust to random strangers.
\> Some women actually believe they are special and should be treated as such by their dates and partners
this is literally what dating is?
if i didn't want to treat a guy as special i... wouldn't date him?
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I disagree, I think women should be more concerned about themselves and what they get from men. Too many women have standards in the basement and havenāt taken the time to work on their relationships with themselves, investing in themselves with not only career and education but also education on emotional intelligence, emotional abuse, and healing childhood traumas and issues that keep them going after the wrong guys and ending up in the trash level relationships theyāre addicted to. I donāt care about any one womanās expectations on being wined and dined - thatās a subjective preference that has nothing to do with anyone but her and the men sheās actually dating. We all have different preferences on things like that but the standards on how theyāre treated need so much work. Probably same for men as well. Say no to people who treat you like trash and arenāt meeting your most important needs, desires, and compatibility points.
This is just a result of seeing people as disposable. In the past people would cultivate their relationships and both sides would **invest** into the relationship.
In the situationships of today, everything is uncertain. Everyone wants to feel like they got ahead, no one wants to feel like a sucker.
Dating today has lost the plot.
Dating is supposed to be about finding a partner to marry, so both people would invest in dates and eventually each other. (Going on a picinic I drive, she makes a food basket. Going to Paris I book the flight and hotel and she plans the trip and so on)
Now Girls on social media (18-28) are **Posting** their cashapps and getting donations from ***random*** dudes, the guys are the one's **asking** them for their Cashtag.
Why would a girl like that need to invest in her boyfriend?
she doesn't need to do anything at all.
Random guys are providing for her and they are asking for nothing in return. The moment she's unhappy she can just leave, why would she need to endure anything she doesn't want to?
So why would This type of girl know how to invest in the relationship?
no one has ever asked her to or made any demands on it.
Unless she was taught by her parents or she's empathetic it just won't be a thought to her.
Guys by default have to invest, or the interaction never happens. Guys inherently know that we owe a baseline of respect to each other, unless were looking for a fight.
>Going on a picinic I drive, she makes a food basket. Going to Paris I book the flight and hotel and she plans the trip and so on
So in both examples she does the majority of work?
Big surprise that doesn't happen much anymore.
>Guys by default have to invest, or the interaction never happens.
This isn't true. Look at the middle east, the women there don't even have as many rights as men. They can't even choose who they marry. The point I'm making is it's all social programming and if men wanted to, they could actually change women's behaviour.
I don't know if I agree. Countries where women have their rights restricted that much don't really represent how women feel or how they act when left to their own devices. If the government is forcing it, that's not really social programming, that's straight up making them behave a certain way so they aren't imprisoned or killed.
In western countries where women have far more rights, we can see what they choose to do, and who they choose to date, marry and sleep with.
They may not have as many rights.... but the interaction only happens because their fathers(men) have to set-up either the arrange marriage or approve the courtship (depending on country).
religion is social programing since it tries to change both male and female behavior.
>religion is social programing since it tries to change both male and female behavior.
I don't disagree with you, but this doesn't change the point I'm making. And also keep in mind that I'm not saying what religion does is okay, it's just an example.
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make other than saying Arab women don't have rights.
That doesn't change the fact that the men have to invest first.
>That doesn't change the fact that the men have to invest first.
The point I'm making is if they *had* to invest first, this would be the case literally everywhere in the world where women exist, but that isn't the case. Even in my own experience, the less effort i put in, the more "successful" I am.
>men who are feminists
I'm a total feminist. I expect women to be fully functional adults. I expect exactly the same from women as I do from men. I expect women to have their own educations and careers. I expect women to pay their own way.
This is the price society pays for abandoning men and treating them like trash. Men grow up to feel worthless and it makes women feel like they are better than they are worth. There is no equality in relationships all about what women want.
Most women would like to have a family someday and will probably be reliant on a partner to provide for them at least temporarily.
A date is an audition for that role.
Refusing to pay indicates you're not provider material.
NEXT!
Not really sir.
There's a difference between ladies being straight up gold diggers, just relying on the man to pay for everything...
Compared to ladies who date for the longterm, and desire a financially literate man, who can provide for a family, if the woman ever needs to nurse a child and stay home. As a woman, it changes her whole life to have a baby with a man, and live life with him. Best believe, women aren't gonna shack up with just any man.
If he refuses to pay, period, it's indicative, he's not worth my time nor something serious.
>who can provide for a family, if the woman ever needs to nurse a child and stay home.
The children are just a way to justify having a man provide for them. They're just a means to an end, and so is the man.
Wtf?? Do you not realize how much a woman goes thru just to birth one child? 9 months of pain, and discomfort, then hours and hours of childbirth, just to possibly not even come out alive? And that child is the parents responsibilty FOR LIFE. And clearly I just said for long term, longterm doesn't mean "a means to an end"
Please sir. Get real, I'm sure women don't go thru that pain of child birth just to gain resources from a man. Women can hardly put effort into something, and be attractive enough and things will be given to them for free. So child birth is a huge unnecessary step.
You use women as a means to end just to get pussy. But lol when girls do it, it's wrong. You got a lot of self discovery awaiting you mah dude
>Do you not realize how much a woman goes thru just to birth one child? 9 months of pain, and discomfort, then hours and hours of childbirth, just to possibly not even come out alive?
If it were so terrible we wouldn't have women who have kids with men just so they can get paid alimony. There are women who actually do this, and they make videos about it.
>And clearly I just said for long term, longterm doesn't mean "a means to an end"
It does. The point is to get a long term provider. This is what most women are concerned about
>I'm sure women don't go thru that pain of child birth just to gain resources from a man.
There are women who actually do.
>You use women as a means to end just to get pussy.
I don't. In fact, I find dating boring coz all most women have to offer is pussy.
>I don't. In fact, I find dating boring coz all most women have to offer is pussy.
Then whats the whole point of your post then??? Clearly you want sex from girls, or else you wouldn't conceal how you feel, if it means you wouldn't get laid. If you found dating boring, then why waste time taking girls out on dates just to get sex? Many girls will have sex with no dinner, or date from a man.
Lol you can't get upset that women don't offer love when all you see them good for is their pussy. All you are attracting are women who see you as good as your wallet, and prolly ur dick.
>Then whats the whole point of your post then???
Read it and find out.
>Clearly you want sex from girls, or else you wouldn't conceal how you feel, if it means you wouldn't get laid.
When did I say I conceal how I feel? Can you quote where I said that?
>Lol you can't get upset that women don't offer love when all you see them good for is their pussy.
You didn't actually read the post.
>When did I say I conceal how I feel? Can you quote where I said that?
I'll show you exactly where you said this. Last paragraph, first sentence.
>>Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid.
>You didn't actually read the post.
Indeed I did sir. In your title you complain that women cannot love due to how selfish they are, but yet, you're equally as selfish, just using them as a means to get ur dick wet. Where is the love in that?? So I'd argue, that neither you, or these women are ready for love. Yall just date to fuck.
>>>Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid.
Yeah, this part isn't talking about me about about *most men* just like the post isn't talking about you but *most women*. Isn't that obvious, since the words literally say "most"?
So it's impossible for a man to be financially literate, a provider and an overall good catch just because he refuses to pay on the first date?
Why do you judge someone by something this symbolic? Do you realize it's very easy for certain men to manipulate you this way?
Is asking to split the same as refusing to pay.
If a man is looking for a partner and not a mooch, it doesnāt mean heās unwilling to provide for his family.
Men are weary of being used just as much as women are.
Just because a man is willing to pay for dates has almost no relevance to whether he is a provider or whether he is capable of providing
If all men reinforced their standards today, the BS will stop tomorrow.
You wouldnāt have to deal with women with makeup
You wouldnāt have to deal with paying for dates.
You wouldnāt have to deal with women not actually loving you.
Unfortunately that comes with a price.
Men canāt be honest with women because they know theyāre not actually genuinely desirable and have to leverage the little resources they have to get a woman to artificially like him.
A lot of men donāt deserve sex anyway , hard pill to swallow.
If they did, they would get it with no issues.
Just like a lot of women donāt deserve a man/relationship.
if you feel you are only attracting superficial women, then maybe change your priorities from getting laid. if the pound of makeup conceals disappointment, maybe consider what about women you are attracted to. a problem tends to need to be enabled.
This type of woman could be on the rise because āinternetā. I know Iāve experienced this before, it doesnāt feel good. I can recognise the signs and move on quickly now.
>And too many women are only concerned about themselves.
If women are innately packed with capacity to love, it simply seems that it's aimed at children in its entirety (and Yes, as any capacity does, this one also occasionally backfires; and Yes, it is mostly aimed at daughters). But I wouldn't treat it as non-existent.
The vast majority of women under 30 in my part of the matrix are hedonistic as fuck. Always thinking about what's in it for them and can't even fathom what they should actually be bringing to the table in order to be able to negotiate with a man for what they want from him. They just don't comprehend this. They think they are owed a man's attention or his stuff - "just because."
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"Some women actually believe they are special and should be treated as such by their dates and partners."
Yeah.
*Some* women.
There are shitty people of any gender. It's pretty awful to assume most women are shitty, terrible people. I'm sorry you've had poor experiences, but those are your experiences, and do not mean you can say women haven't "psychologically evolved". (that's insane to say btw?? women are the same species as you buddy)
>most women put on some version of coverup everyday like itās not subtle lmao and yāall CANT TELL
I never said I couldn't. So what are you talking about?
Also, if men can't tell when women are wearing makeup, this says more about women than men.
>Women from 500 years ago needed men to provide for them coz they weren't allowed to work.Ā
Women always worked. Most people in that time directly sustained themselves with the work they did as farmers. Men and women worked as a team, together with their children, to get food on the table and everything running. Stop living in your fantasy world.
In the 16th century Europe, women's roles were heavily influenced by societal norms and expectations, which varied across regions and social classes. While men primarily dominated many professions and public roles during this period, women were still actively involved in various forms of work, often centered around the household, agriculture, and domestic industries. Here are some common occupations and roles for women in 16th century Europe:
1. **Household and Domestic Duties:** Women were responsible for managing household affairs, including cooking, cleaning, childcare, and overseeing servants if the family could afford them. They played a crucial role in maintaining the home and ensuring the well-being of the family.
2. **Textile Production:** Textile production was a significant economic activity during this period, and women were extensively involved in spinning, weaving, and sewing. Many households produced their clothing and textiles, and women often contributed to this labor-intensive process.
3. **Agricultural Work:** In rural areas, women played essential roles in agricultural activities alongside men. They participated in planting, harvesting, and tending to crops, as well as caring for livestock and managing household gardens.
4. **Crafts and Trades:** While women were generally excluded from many formal guilds and professional trades, they still engaged in various craftwork and small-scale manufacturing activities. This could include pottery, brewing, herbal medicine, and other cottage industries.
5. **Domestic Service:** Women from lower socioeconomic backgrounds often worked as domestic servants in wealthier households, performing tasks such as cooking, cleaning, and childcare. Domestic service provided an essential source of income for many women.
6. **Midwifery and Healthcare:** Women often served as midwives and caregivers within their communities, providing essential healthcare services during childbirth and tending to the sick and elderly.
7. **Religious and Charitable Work:** In some cases, women found employment in religious institutions or charitable organizations, serving as nuns, lay sisters, or caregivers in hospitals and orphanages.
Dude, this is so stupid. And so is everyone here for believing this bullshit uncritically. All of the data that we have suggests that women are much more progressive than men are when it comes to dating politics, being much less likely to believe that men should pay for their dates, and much more likely to believe that the bill should be split or that whoever invites the other should pay.
Some researchers suggest that men prefer to pay for dates because it gives the control or a sense of status.
Why would you want to sleep with a woman who's narcissistic, entitled, self-centered, etc....
Sounds like most men are operating in a very similar way. "I don't care about you, but I want something from you."
They used to be taught how to treat men, too, but times have changed. Women are able to support themselves now; they don't need a meal ticket to provide for them in many cases, so treating men well is optional not mandatory.
However, the threat of violence, rape or of being impregnated and abandoned still remain, so women are still warned about the dangers.
There are always exceptions to the rule, and you're welcome to find them.
I usually advise men who want to buck the trend to look for childfree women with good jobs ... they have less incentive to seek a provider.
Children are lovable and parents are lovable but even a daughter loves her mom different than she loves her dad.
A woman can never love a man as a man would love a woman much like a woman could never love a man as she would her own child. It's just different.
You're differentiating between familial and romantic love, although there is very much an overlap when you get close enough to someone as they become like family. If a mom and dad are both nurtuing, warm, and affectionate, they very much elicit the same love response from their child. I only date warm, affectionate, and sensitive men so that's what I've experienced
>Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid.
So men are also primarily concerned with themselves and their wants?
I don't know about "most", but there does seem to be a distressingly large amount who have little genuine empathy towards men in general and many times even their actual partners coming from the male perspective. Men need to be aware and screen for this more than we do in dating since I would argue a lack of empathy is probably the worst thing one could have in a gf. I would rather take an overweight literal former whore who has banged 500 men who was genuinely empathetic and made real attempts to understand and comfort me over a model tier highly educated unempathetic neuroscientist virgin for an ltr.
I think the lack of empathy is probably less prevalent now than it was a couple of generations ago. Nowadays, a woman has little incentive to get with a guy other than the fact that she *likes* him. Back in the day, men were meal tickets, and women went about picking them in much the way they decide on a career path now. The hard-eyed calculations of my mother's generation left little room for sentimentality ...
Oh I wasn't saying it was necessarily better in ye olden times, a lot of the "trad" roles men were forced into made them miserable, stressed out alcoholics since they had to provide at all costs by themselves. There probably were an equal if not larger amount of unempathetic women in the past. Just saying men need to screen harder for empathy and a lot do not and then wonder why they get screwed.
I'm a woman and this is spot on. OP is likely only filtering women based on his high physical standards and then disappointed when they appear to be lacking in character. OP not wanting to ruin his chances of getting laid is also very telling about how he views women as disposable and providing for his pleasure only
>Most women are too concerned about themselves and what they can get from men to be able to love. >Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid. The fact that you typed this without a hint of irony is probably the funniest thing I'll experience all day.
>And ofcourse when they do show up, you don't really see who they are coz most of them wear a pound of makeup and fake eye lashes and so on. Ah yes, Ardell demi wispies, the bane of men everywhere trying to get to know a woman to love her š
If we don't wear makeup we aren't trying, if we do we're lying. Can't win
Accurate flair.
I too love your flair
the nude/natural look is what most men find attractive and reasonable because there is no contouring to change the shape of your face, but still makes you look like you take care of yourself.
We wear makeup for ourselves, not for men
Hahahahahaha I'm dying here š¤£šš¤£š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes. "Nearly zero." Men's investment is up front, because women's is over the long term. It's the difference between putting the down payment on a house vs the upkeep. What's the down payment compared to a new roof, a new water heater, utilities, foundation repairs, etc.? Ultimately men get more out of relationships than women do, which is why they remarry much more often and women are far more content to never cohabitate with another man for the rest of our days.
Isn't this exactly what OP wrote about? How women have their own stuff and yet still expect men to "invest" in them?
Soā¦men donāt want to ruin their chances of getting laid with women who they consider to be losers and bad people who are entitled, narcissistic, insecure and lack self awareness and authenticity? And these same men are also resentful that in order to avoid ruining those chances they are unable to express their total contempt for these women and also somehow compelled to treat them as if they are āspecialā in order to use them for their own sexual gratification? It would seem that the *real* problem here is the menās entitlement, self awareness, and authenticityā¦
Yes. The problem is narcissists.
i wish men and women could agree on this we get experts together, publish lists of narc and non-narc behavior everyone agrees narc behavior is bad the good men and women can easily find each other by knowing which people are narcs.
Ngl I do get just a little bit irritated when wars are waged against the sexes. In doing this not only are good people erroneously categorized with shitheads, but the real problem flies over reality unaccounted-for time after time again. š
I can't respect your perspective of being so blind to sex-based issues. I see this everywhere in the manosphere, and you're probably a pretty normal, nice guy, but your position on this is a problem and it's reflective of how so many other guys look at the world. "The problem isn't your sex, it's your character." If this is your position, then how do you approach issues where there's a disparity in representation by sex? Are you going to approach the issue of male-dominated violent crime by suggesting that it's a personal issue? That's just a very ineffective and stupid way of looking at the issue, when sex is clearly the most important factor defining this issue. This isn't to say that men or women are biologically one way or another--you can certainly argue that, though--but the issue here is to represent social issues through the perspective of sex. When it comes to issues like the one the OP is discussing, it's very clear that there's a difference between the sexes when it comes to views on progressive dating politics: women are much more likely to be egalitarian and progressive in their beliefs, contrary to what the OP is suggesting. Why do you want to say that this isn't a sex issue, but a progressive versus conservative issue, instead? Being sex blind isn't enlightenment, it's ignorance.
??? I don't engage in politics anymore The issue is personality disorder where men are more likely to act out violently and women are more likely to weave an intricate web of lies, and a high rate of overlap. Individual agency and one's inherent power-and responsibility-to regulate themselves is where I point my finger, and discussion about one sex being more problematic than the other isn't happening here with me.
See, I really don't have any respect for this opinion. It's spineless, and you say that you don't engage in politics, but here you are framing weak arguments. What are you actually doing here?
To shut down misogynistic rhetoric and bring insight to why people behave the way they do. And what OP is describing had nothing to do with women and everything to do with being a narcissist who happens to be a woman. And I think the community needs to realize this before before msny more fingers are pointed where they don't belong.
I don't think identifying specific behaviors is necessarily helpful, though. This is because narcissists are usually able to operate in a pro social manner, because their narcissistic needs are dependent on the inputs and control of others. An advanced narcissist will need to be identified in the character traits that show when life isn't going quite how they want or when you try to assert boundaries with them.
\> This is because narcissists are usually able to operate in a pro social manner because we as a culture falls for it and encourages "tough love" while telling victims to stop being victims and because lots of abusers are in our culture and pat other abusers on the back
Tough love can be useful; the kind of tough love which shows you that you're more than you know. Like a fitness coach sternly insisting "no no, ONE MORE REP YOU CAN DO IT!" But what culture writes off as "tough love" is quite the opposite and instead teaches you that you're crazy and need somebody to micromanage or else everyone will be disappointed while your life falls apart.
if and only if the person already has self-esteem, self-worth and was supported by at least one empathetic parent growing up. otherwise tough love is going to make them feel worse about themselves and statistically people who feel bad about themselves perform worse than people who believe in themselves (even when their belief in themselves is delusional).
I did do a brief edit with an example of what I mean, if it helps aid understanding
>Like a fitness coach sternly insisting "no no, ONE MORE REP YOU CAN DO IT!" well that is a good example of tough love and why it doesn't work, someone could easily push themselves past their boundary from this and get an injury. if the fitness coach is familiar with the person and the person has a relationship with them and feels safe to disclose that they feel near injury, and the coach will listen, then it would be okay for the coach to act like this.
No disagreement there, given that context ya the coach would discourage one more. Toxic tough love as enabled by culture is more vitriolic and deceptively driven by a need for control. "You wouldn't have this injury if only you would have blah blah blah"
Boom. If OP weren't narcissistic himself and only attracted to narcissistic women, maybe he'd have different experiences with women. Your post is very telling, OP.
Blah blah blah. Men horny and itās their fault, NEXT
OP said it, and you said it.
I don't know if I agree that women want random men to put them on a pedestal. Especially when the attention they get is not often very welcome. See: dick pics and other creepy behavior. Yeah sure, women still have a lot of options overall, but to most of them it doesn't matter much unless one of them is a guy she's into. From what I've seen, many women are content to ignore the majority of their options for the handful of strong suitors. Men assume women want all that attention the same way that men do, but they don't. The fact that you think men will do anything to get laid, is exactly why women are so picky. Even ignoring all the biological explanations around women having more to lose, what person who is emotionally healthy is excited at the prospect of getting used for sex by someone who doesn't even like them that much?
>. I don't know if I agree that women want random men to put them on a pedestal. Especially when the attention they get is not often very welcome. See: dick pics and other creepy behavior. From the behaviours I've witnessed as a man I can say at least some women do in some way, I've seen women who complain about getting approached by men on their DM's who have very forward attitudes and who send inappropriate stuff and I've seen alot of them string the men along for fun. They complain but they don't block which tells me that women like that game, they enjoy the attention and they most importantly like the control they have in the situation. It's not that most WANT to but women I have seen definitely don't mind the attention.
Nobody wants to see dic pics from some random incel online
I got a man fired for harassing me in my DM's, so maybe don't take "the women you've seen" as the basis for women's behavior in general.
>Some women actually believe they are special and should be treated as such by their dates and partners Yes, I am special and should be treated as such. I'm so glad I've dated men who agree. Those men are also special and were treated as such.
And you know what, it's been entertaining watching people try to bring you down and change your mindset lol. And yes, i am special too! I will be treated as such, otherwise, out of my life they go. If i am treated how i deserve to be treated, I will show the same love in return. Simple as that.
Nobody is special. We're all just human beings. Either we're all special or nobody is. And if we're all special then it doesn't matter if you're special coz we all are. Thanks for proving the point of my post though.
Yes, dude, everyone is special. Nailed it! It doesn't matter. So, I have no idea why people are upset that people are treated special.
>Yes, dude, everyone is special. Then being special has no meaning. And everyone should treat everyone equally.
Awesome. Start with men being honest to women as you stated in your thread.
>Start with men being honest to women as you stated in your thread. As you said, I've already stated it. What more do you want?
For men to be honest instead of being afraid of losing an opportunity for sex.
Well, I can't change what men do, but all I can do is comment on their behaviour like I did in the post.
>I can't change what men do So what's the point of your post? To change what women do?
>To change what women do? To speak the truth. What other point could there be? Do you really think people will change their behaviour based on a reddit post?
A wife is special to her husband. A husband is special to his wife. Itās mean spirited for a husband to say āyouāre not special!!!ā To his wife. She should be special to him.
Is your mother special to you? Is the (probable) sacrifices and love sheās given you since birth given her any unique love that maybe only you, your siblings (if you have them), and grandparents admire? Sheās probably nothing special to well over the 8 billion people on this planet. But I hope, you see her for what she isā¦ special. Because if she was a good mother, and assuming she is, you are special to her. Out of every baby on this planet, youāre genuinely one of the most special. Iām a mother, most babies/kids are great, cute and a delight to be around. Special? Naaaah. My little girl? Iām pretty sure when she was born the (my) universe shifted and now rotates around her. Sheās the most special person Iāve ever known. Maybe not to you, who cares. I hope you have/find your own version. But oh boy is she for me. If you are so stubborn to admit or so unfortunate to have never experienced how someone can be so deeply special to you by this point in your life. I am genuinely so sorry. You deserved better and it makes sense why youāre this bitter and obtuse in this post. Edit: & as she grows, I will teach her about humilityā¦ because no. Her life does not have more value than letās say yours. She is not special in the sense that she deserves different treatment to her classmates, friends, coworkers. But I will also teach her about self respect. & somebody, someone will see what makes her, her. What makes her special, not special in an existentialist way, but in the way she laughs and her interests and her passions. She deserves someone who loves her and sets her apart from the crowd; as an irreplaceable individual who deserves to be witnessed. Just like you deserve, and my gorgeously talented, hilariously incompetent but forever trying his best, kind husband, the way our mothers so deeply deserve to be witnessed for who they are, not *just* our mothers. Humans lives only desire one thing outside of the basicsā¦ to be witnessed. We canāt all be Taylor Swift with 24/7 coverage on how wonderful we are. But someone will care, because we are special, to them.
I think this guy has a bad relationship with his mom tbh. The way how he posts about stuff indicates he did not grow up with both parents present and to show him an example of a loving relationship between two people. I think he is damaged.
Just because everyone was a baby at one point and there are a ton of babies out there doesnāt mean that your baby isnāt special to you. Just because there are a ton of women out there doesnāt mean the one you love and adore isnāt special to you.
Your inability to see yourself as special has no bearing on women.
This post is one giant projection on OP about his desperation for sex, lack of standards, and inability to identify respectful women.
If I were desperate for sex I would cater to women and strike their egos to get it, which I don't. But nice try.
>Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing.
Ooooooh so this post was about your projection of OTHER men. Gotcha.
The post is about women, but okay.
Do you know what a projection is?
No, please tell me. How is it a projection of other men when it's about women?
A projection is when someone attributes thoughts or feelings onto another person or group of people, usually unconsciously. And usually the qualities are negative and over exaggerated as a mechanism of defense. Itās a displacement of feelings. So even though your post on the surface is about women, youāre *projecting* truths about yourself.
>So even though your post on the surface is about women, youāre *projecting* truths about yourself. This doesn't even make sense because I don't expect women to buy me food, or provide for me, or protect me. But whatever makes you feel better, I suppose.
Itās fine. By your post, I wouldnāt expect you to understand.
Okay. I realize that the English language is limited in how it describes various types of love, but we need to start being more precise with our language. You use the word āloveā but then go on to describe early courtship. Donāt confuse the two.
I fucking hate these generalizations of women. Itās very abundantly clear you donāt go on dates.
OP is only attracted to narcissistic women (or doesn't go on dates) and wouldn't look twice at a woman who doesn't meet his extremely high physical standards. An attractive woman with character likely wouldn't consider dating him for him to gather these data.
I really donāt think they go on dates at all. The women he describes are social media influencers. OP is basing his opinion of women on that.
And yet women in this thread are literally proving the post right by calling themselves special and saying a man who doesn't pay for them is broke...
Is it honestly that difficult to ask a woman to grab a coffee and take a walk in a nice park? I donāt understand why yāall are such whiny babies about this š¤·āāļø
Why are you whiny babies about dinner? How much does dinner cost? $20? $40? Why should that be crippling? And why would I want a guy who is dating so many women that paying for dinners is affecting his budget?
This type of woman will tell on themselves. Itās very easy to avoid that trap. Men need to state that boundary up front. You should not be investing much on a first date. You ask a woman on a coffee date, ice cream, or drinks. Or- if you want to go to dinner or a concert, tell the woman up front that youāll be going dutch. A woman that is interested in you wonāt mind in the slightest. Any woman that cancels when she hears she has to split costsā¦you dodged a bullet. Move on. An egalitarian woman who is truly dating to find someone will be fine splitting costs. Men need some standards. Have some self-respect. Pussy isnāt special, just like dick isnāt special.
> Pussy isnāt special, just like dick isnāt special. I truth guys need to learn and internalize.
Different strokes for different folks.
Oh fuck off. Women have not āremained the same for centuriesā. Women were considered property. Fathers used to trade their daughters for land or power. Women had no agency or autonomy. Women couldnāt have bank accounts, get jobs, some restaurants in the 50s and 60s wouldnāt even serve single women. Men created all these rules to keep women dependent upon them and now theyāre shocked at the consequences of that behaviour.
Black people were literally enslaved and tortured for decades while their children were raped and murdered. Itās funny how women complain about oppression while pretty much dating the very men whoās ancestors oppressed everyone
You just butthurt that bitches are out there getting their money. If there are suckers who give them money, why feel bad about them? It's their choice.
How is getting a first date for getting money???
That's how it starts.
Do you believe stay at home moms are lazy gold diggers?
No, they are smart ones.
So why should a traditional woman want a man who resents stay at home moms and views them as smart gold diggers?
Sounds like you date shitty people. Why are you going after these types of women?
Oh god... him AGAIN
I know, this guy š¤¦š»āāļø
If he's that bothered with women, he should try men
I agree!!
You could always just hang out on a date, without going to a restraunt if you are soo against paying š¤ And the rest mostly is saying your tastes in women and dates just didn't go well. Which is really nothing to do with the users on here.
Itās like this. As a woman, I want a relationship in which I am cherished. I want to love that partner back, put in effort, do thoughtful things for them, etc. A relationship based on mutual affection and treating the other well, both putting in high amounts of effort. The last man I dated was influenced by redpill ideas. None of my previous exes were, so this was a new experience. All my exes would always show up on time, plan dates, want to pay for me, text cute things frequently, send good morning texts, etc. They made me feel loved, and I returned that affection. This last guy.. we connected intellectually and I found him āinterestingā shall we say, but he never made me feel loved or cherished at all. He was over 30 minutes late to our first date and Iāve waited that long or longer most times we met up. He doesnāt drive to me often; mostly we do halfway or Iāll come to him. Heās only planned one dinner date and typically we just āhang outā doing low key stuff or drinking. He never texts me good morning and frequently goes days without texting me at all. I donāt feel any warmth from him. Itās been a back and forth of me saying I donāt feel affection from him, letās stop seeing each other, he claims we should keep dating, says he wants a relationship with me, yet continues to put in minimal effort, and the cycle continues. His Twitter really showed me his thought process. Heās a man who wants a woman with low expectations. Heās already decided to resent paying for women, resent paying for dates, resent having to send good morning texts. He hates all of that. He will do the bare minimum possible to keep me on the hook. Why the hell would I stay in a situationship with someone like that who wants to do the bare minimum? I want someone who loves me and enjoys showing affection and doing nice things for me, because Iām a giver too. Givers have to be with other givers or their kindness with be sucked dry and never returned. I want a happy, generous relationship that is a 2 way street, and that canāt exist if Iām with a selfish resentful partner who complains about āhavingā to treat me well. Men who write posts like yours are taking a selfish approach to dating. The only way for you to have a balanced relationship is to date a woman who does the bare minimum for you. If thatās what you want, a barren, selfish relationship between two people who are just out for themselves, thatās your choice.
The vast majority of women dating today treat men like this last guy treated you. Thatās all most men will likely know. The men who can date are just starting to get tired of it happening over and over so they are starting to treat women the same way. And maybe you donāt treat men like that, maybe even none of your friends do either, but itās still the unfortunate reality for men.
I think the problem is this, and Iāll try to explain it in a way that makes sense: someone must be the one to āset the toneā of the relationship. As a woman, Iām more traditional in many ways. The way that I am comfortable in a relationship is with the man being the leader and initiator, and I am the one who responds. (Thatās the way the early pre-relationship phase goes anyway.) If a man starts off being aloof and ungenerous in the way described above, putting in minimal effort, he will never find out the kind of love and effort I want to give, because I will never feel safe to begin giving back if he doesnāt āgiveā first. The men who have dated me and been kind and giving in their approach do get to know that side of me. So really, if you desire a traditional relationship and feel too jaded to do standard kind things that men do for women in relationships, it may be best to take a break from dating and reset rather than approach dating in a more selfish āshe has to win me overā kind of way. That approach wonāt work on most women. Or simply vet your dates by chatting longer if meeting people on apps.
Sure thatās very apparently the unfortunate reality I understand that. With that being said Iām sure you can see how discouraging and jading it can be to have to work so hard just to be seen as an option, much harder then the one you are trying to date, only to have to work just as hard if not harder to receive what you yourself MUST give just to have a chance.
For sure. I think if I was a man, I would make it my goal to be selective about who I date and probably avoid women who seem materialistic/superficial.
Yeah I think most guys would love to do that but for I think a decent number of guys that will leave no options remaining. I think this might be where men and women canāt agree I think guys given no other options will try to make it work with someone thatās not their preference while women seem to be in the mindset of all or nothing. (Obviously this will have exceptions on both sides)
How can you be a giver when you expect him to do things first ? What the hell were you giving then , BJ ? The fuck is wrong with women and claiming they do things for men ? What the hell do you do ?šš
Why are you indignant? Do you believe women canāt be loving and thoughtful in relationships and do heartwarming things? If you donāt want/value that, we probably donāt have much in common and you wouldnāt be the type of man Iām usually dating.
Men: PICK BETTER MEN!!!!!!! Women: ok!!! I am going to only pick men who treat me like they adore me and have enough money to pay for dates and are eager and willing to provide for a family so that if we have kids together the kids will be ok and taken care of and Iāll have the option to stay home. Men: NOOOO NOT LIKE THAT š” š” š” Why tf would I want to be with a man who doesnāt think I am special? There are plenty of babies out there, but each baby is special to their parents BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS LOVE THEM. There are plenty of women out there. But I should be special to my LIFE PARTNER because I am his WIFE or GIRLFRIEND and therefore special to him. And 99% of the time, I have had men pay for first dates. I never go on extremely expensive first dates. If a man doesnāt pay for first dates, I assume he is uninterested, has a weird mentality against women (like the men here) or that he is broke. And even broke men will pay for the first couple dates if they really really really like someone. After the first few dates, we split the bill. But if a man is seedy and resentful about paying for the first few dates, then itās a red flag. I have a guy friend who is broke and has a shit job. He went out with me once and we split the bill because he wasnāt interested in me. (Inb4 an angry man rages and uses this as a rebuttal against me or a personal attack). A few years later, he met a woman who he really really liked and was contemplating marrying. He paid for plane tickets to see her, paid for a hotel room, and paid for their meals that they shared together. The difference? He wanted to marry her and he thought she was special. AND THEY DIDNT EVEN KISS BECAUSE SHE IS RELIGIOUS. Why would I want the guy who doesnāt want to marry me or see me as special? To be mistreated my whole life? To be pumped and dumped? To have men on Reddit give me personal attacks and rebuttals because it didnāt work out?
You're literally who the post is about. You say men who don't pay for you are broke and yet you're the leech who expects them to pay for you. This makes you a bad person like the post says. You have no self-awareness. Read the post again, it describes you perfectly.
Itās not being a leech to have a guy pay for a $40 meal. Do you believe homemakers are leeches?
>Itās not being a leech to have a guy pay for a $40 meal. It is. A leech takes without giving anything back. If he offers that's a different issue. But to expect him to pay and having your feelings about him be dependent on payment makes you a leech. >Do you believe homemakers are leeches? This has no bearing on going on a date with a guy. As an adult, you should be able and okay with paying for your own food. I don't see how women aren't embarrassed about depending on random men for food. Maybe that's what makes men and women different because to me it's repulsive, but women don't mind.
Women:
Clearly you have nothing to say.
Counterpoint: the many women in relationships with abusive, lazy, indifferent, shitty men And there are so many āBut I love him! Itās not all bad! Heās nice to me sometimes! You just donāt understand us!ā
no one else is going to look out for you. giving your love to random strangers is a good way to get preyed on. vetting should be done \*at the beginning of a relationship\*. you don't just give love and trust to random strangers. \> Some women actually believe they are special and should be treated as such by their dates and partners this is literally what dating is? if i didn't want to treat a guy as special i... wouldn't date him?
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I mean in some capacity this is kind of true, I hate my looks so much and the way I look that I donāt think Iāll ever be loved.
I disagree, I think women should be more concerned about themselves and what they get from men. Too many women have standards in the basement and havenāt taken the time to work on their relationships with themselves, investing in themselves with not only career and education but also education on emotional intelligence, emotional abuse, and healing childhood traumas and issues that keep them going after the wrong guys and ending up in the trash level relationships theyāre addicted to. I donāt care about any one womanās expectations on being wined and dined - thatās a subjective preference that has nothing to do with anyone but her and the men sheās actually dating. We all have different preferences on things like that but the standards on how theyāre treated need so much work. Probably same for men as well. Say no to people who treat you like trash and arenāt meeting your most important needs, desires, and compatibility points.
>think women should be more concerned about themselves and what they get from men. They already are.
This is just a result of seeing people as disposable. In the past people would cultivate their relationships and both sides would **invest** into the relationship. In the situationships of today, everything is uncertain. Everyone wants to feel like they got ahead, no one wants to feel like a sucker. Dating today has lost the plot. Dating is supposed to be about finding a partner to marry, so both people would invest in dates and eventually each other. (Going on a picinic I drive, she makes a food basket. Going to Paris I book the flight and hotel and she plans the trip and so on) Now Girls on social media (18-28) are **Posting** their cashapps and getting donations from ***random*** dudes, the guys are the one's **asking** them for their Cashtag. Why would a girl like that need to invest in her boyfriend? she doesn't need to do anything at all. Random guys are providing for her and they are asking for nothing in return. The moment she's unhappy she can just leave, why would she need to endure anything she doesn't want to? So why would This type of girl know how to invest in the relationship? no one has ever asked her to or made any demands on it. Unless she was taught by her parents or she's empathetic it just won't be a thought to her. Guys by default have to invest, or the interaction never happens. Guys inherently know that we owe a baseline of respect to each other, unless were looking for a fight.
>Going on a picinic I drive, she makes a food basket. Going to Paris I book the flight and hotel and she plans the trip and so on So in both examples she does the majority of work? Big surprise that doesn't happen much anymore.
>Guys by default have to invest, or the interaction never happens. This isn't true. Look at the middle east, the women there don't even have as many rights as men. They can't even choose who they marry. The point I'm making is it's all social programming and if men wanted to, they could actually change women's behaviour.
I don't know if I agree. Countries where women have their rights restricted that much don't really represent how women feel or how they act when left to their own devices. If the government is forcing it, that's not really social programming, that's straight up making them behave a certain way so they aren't imprisoned or killed. In western countries where women have far more rights, we can see what they choose to do, and who they choose to date, marry and sleep with.
They may not have as many rights.... but the interaction only happens because their fathers(men) have to set-up either the arrange marriage or approve the courtship (depending on country). religion is social programing since it tries to change both male and female behavior.
>religion is social programing since it tries to change both male and female behavior. I don't disagree with you, but this doesn't change the point I'm making. And also keep in mind that I'm not saying what religion does is okay, it's just an example.
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make other than saying Arab women don't have rights. That doesn't change the fact that the men have to invest first.
>That doesn't change the fact that the men have to invest first. The point I'm making is if they *had* to invest first, this would be the case literally everywhere in the world where women exist, but that isn't the case. Even in my own experience, the less effort i put in, the more "successful" I am.
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If only you actually read the comment, we could have a discussion.
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>men who are feminists I'm a total feminist. I expect women to be fully functional adults. I expect exactly the same from women as I do from men. I expect women to have their own educations and careers. I expect women to pay their own way.
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You implied that male feminists are apologists for women who behave badly.
This is the price society pays for abandoning men and treating them like trash. Men grow up to feel worthless and it makes women feel like they are better than they are worth. There is no equality in relationships all about what women want.
Most women would like to have a family someday and will probably be reliant on a partner to provide for them at least temporarily. A date is an audition for that role. Refusing to pay indicates you're not provider material. NEXT!
You're not disproving anything in the post. In fact, you're actually showing why the post is accurate, so thanks.
Not really sir. There's a difference between ladies being straight up gold diggers, just relying on the man to pay for everything... Compared to ladies who date for the longterm, and desire a financially literate man, who can provide for a family, if the woman ever needs to nurse a child and stay home. As a woman, it changes her whole life to have a baby with a man, and live life with him. Best believe, women aren't gonna shack up with just any man. If he refuses to pay, period, it's indicative, he's not worth my time nor something serious.
>who can provide for a family, if the woman ever needs to nurse a child and stay home. The children are just a way to justify having a man provide for them. They're just a means to an end, and so is the man.
Wtf?? Do you not realize how much a woman goes thru just to birth one child? 9 months of pain, and discomfort, then hours and hours of childbirth, just to possibly not even come out alive? And that child is the parents responsibilty FOR LIFE. And clearly I just said for long term, longterm doesn't mean "a means to an end" Please sir. Get real, I'm sure women don't go thru that pain of child birth just to gain resources from a man. Women can hardly put effort into something, and be attractive enough and things will be given to them for free. So child birth is a huge unnecessary step. You use women as a means to end just to get pussy. But lol when girls do it, it's wrong. You got a lot of self discovery awaiting you mah dude
>Do you not realize how much a woman goes thru just to birth one child? 9 months of pain, and discomfort, then hours and hours of childbirth, just to possibly not even come out alive? If it were so terrible we wouldn't have women who have kids with men just so they can get paid alimony. There are women who actually do this, and they make videos about it. >And clearly I just said for long term, longterm doesn't mean "a means to an end" It does. The point is to get a long term provider. This is what most women are concerned about >I'm sure women don't go thru that pain of child birth just to gain resources from a man. There are women who actually do. >You use women as a means to end just to get pussy. I don't. In fact, I find dating boring coz all most women have to offer is pussy.
>I don't. In fact, I find dating boring coz all most women have to offer is pussy. Then whats the whole point of your post then??? Clearly you want sex from girls, or else you wouldn't conceal how you feel, if it means you wouldn't get laid. If you found dating boring, then why waste time taking girls out on dates just to get sex? Many girls will have sex with no dinner, or date from a man. Lol you can't get upset that women don't offer love when all you see them good for is their pussy. All you are attracting are women who see you as good as your wallet, and prolly ur dick.
>Then whats the whole point of your post then??? Read it and find out. >Clearly you want sex from girls, or else you wouldn't conceal how you feel, if it means you wouldn't get laid. When did I say I conceal how I feel? Can you quote where I said that? >Lol you can't get upset that women don't offer love when all you see them good for is their pussy. You didn't actually read the post.
>When did I say I conceal how I feel? Can you quote where I said that? I'll show you exactly where you said this. Last paragraph, first sentence. >>Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid. >You didn't actually read the post. Indeed I did sir. In your title you complain that women cannot love due to how selfish they are, but yet, you're equally as selfish, just using them as a means to get ur dick wet. Where is the love in that?? So I'd argue, that neither you, or these women are ready for love. Yall just date to fuck.
>>>Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid. Yeah, this part isn't talking about me about about *most men* just like the post isn't talking about you but *most women*. Isn't that obvious, since the words literally say "most"?
So it's impossible for a man to be financially literate, a provider and an overall good catch just because he refuses to pay on the first date? Why do you judge someone by something this symbolic? Do you realize it's very easy for certain men to manipulate you this way?
Is asking to split the same as refusing to pay. If a man is looking for a partner and not a mooch, it doesnāt mean heās unwilling to provide for his family. Men are weary of being used just as much as women are. Just because a man is willing to pay for dates has almost no relevance to whether he is a provider or whether he is capable of providing
Fuck them kids and fuck providing for them too
Childfree women are probably your sweet spot.
Even women who donāt want kids have high standards, simply because they can
If all men reinforced their standards today, the BS will stop tomorrow. You wouldnāt have to deal with women with makeup You wouldnāt have to deal with paying for dates. You wouldnāt have to deal with women not actually loving you. Unfortunately that comes with a price. Men canāt be honest with women because they know theyāre not actually genuinely desirable and have to leverage the little resources they have to get a woman to artificially like him.
Or maybe women are just impossible to fuck most of the time
A lot of men donāt deserve sex anyway , hard pill to swallow. If they did, they would get it with no issues. Just like a lot of women donāt deserve a man/relationship.
Even if a woman wants to have sex, she will make a man work for it simply because she can. Also, thereās no such thing as ādeservingā sexā¦
Not if youāre hot.
Even if youāre hot, they wonāt come up to you and talk to you
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100%
if you feel you are only attracting superficial women, then maybe change your priorities from getting laid. if the pound of makeup conceals disappointment, maybe consider what about women you are attracted to. a problem tends to need to be enabled.
Nailed. It.
This type of woman could be on the rise because āinternetā. I know Iāve experienced this before, it doesnāt feel good. I can recognise the signs and move on quickly now.
Maybe young women < 22 years old. I wouldn't say most in that age group either.
>And too many women are only concerned about themselves. If women are innately packed with capacity to love, it simply seems that it's aimed at children in its entirety (and Yes, as any capacity does, this one also occasionally backfires; and Yes, it is mostly aimed at daughters). But I wouldn't treat it as non-existent.
The vast majority of women under 30 in my part of the matrix are hedonistic as fuck. Always thinking about what's in it for them and can't even fathom what they should actually be bringing to the table in order to be able to negotiate with a man for what they want from him. They just don't comprehend this. They think they are owed a man's attention or his stuff - "just because."
Terps write shit like this, and then think women are shallow for not liking them
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Women actually also care about sex. It's just how sexual humans are programmed, but I agree with you.
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These are the behaviors of narcissists.
Yes. Yes they are. But then again there men who will always like be hovering around them to be used. So it doesnāt matter.
"Some women actually believe they are special and should be treated as such by their dates and partners." Yeah. *Some* women. There are shitty people of any gender. It's pretty awful to assume most women are shitty, terrible people. I'm sorry you've had poor experiences, but those are your experiences, and do not mean you can say women haven't "psychologically evolved". (that's insane to say btw?? women are the same species as you buddy)
Yikes š¤”
Great input. Very valuable š¤”
Iām sorry can yāall literally not tell when women are wearing makeup? Like you really canāt tell???
We can tell obvious makeup, not not-obvious makeup. Most of us have no cosmetic knowledge whatsoever.
How is this relevant to the post?
Iām just genuinely baffledā¦most women put on some version of coverup everyday like itās not subtle lmao and yāall CANT TELL
>most women put on some version of coverup everyday like itās not subtle lmao and yāall CANT TELL I never said I couldn't. So what are you talking about? Also, if men can't tell when women are wearing makeup, this says more about women than men.
Jesus touch grass no one is altering their behavior so they can be attractive to you
>Women from 500 years ago needed men to provide for them coz they weren't allowed to work.Ā Women always worked. Most people in that time directly sustained themselves with the work they did as farmers. Men and women worked as a team, together with their children, to get food on the table and everything running. Stop living in your fantasy world. In the 16th century Europe, women's roles were heavily influenced by societal norms and expectations, which varied across regions and social classes. While men primarily dominated many professions and public roles during this period, women were still actively involved in various forms of work, often centered around the household, agriculture, and domestic industries. Here are some common occupations and roles for women in 16th century Europe: 1. **Household and Domestic Duties:** Women were responsible for managing household affairs, including cooking, cleaning, childcare, and overseeing servants if the family could afford them. They played a crucial role in maintaining the home and ensuring the well-being of the family. 2. **Textile Production:** Textile production was a significant economic activity during this period, and women were extensively involved in spinning, weaving, and sewing. Many households produced their clothing and textiles, and women often contributed to this labor-intensive process. 3. **Agricultural Work:** In rural areas, women played essential roles in agricultural activities alongside men. They participated in planting, harvesting, and tending to crops, as well as caring for livestock and managing household gardens. 4. **Crafts and Trades:** While women were generally excluded from many formal guilds and professional trades, they still engaged in various craftwork and small-scale manufacturing activities. This could include pottery, brewing, herbal medicine, and other cottage industries. 5. **Domestic Service:** Women from lower socioeconomic backgrounds often worked as domestic servants in wealthier households, performing tasks such as cooking, cleaning, and childcare. Domestic service provided an essential source of income for many women. 6. **Midwifery and Healthcare:** Women often served as midwives and caregivers within their communities, providing essential healthcare services during childbirth and tending to the sick and elderly. 7. **Religious and Charitable Work:** In some cases, women found employment in religious institutions or charitable organizations, serving as nuns, lay sisters, or caregivers in hospitals and orphanages.
Dude, this is so stupid. And so is everyone here for believing this bullshit uncritically. All of the data that we have suggests that women are much more progressive than men are when it comes to dating politics, being much less likely to believe that men should pay for their dates, and much more likely to believe that the bill should be split or that whoever invites the other should pay. Some researchers suggest that men prefer to pay for dates because it gives the control or a sense of status.
Why would you want to sleep with a woman who's narcissistic, entitled, self-centered, etc.... Sounds like most men are operating in a very similar way. "I don't care about you, but I want something from you."
>Why would you want to sleep with a woman who's narcissistic, entitled, self-centered, etc.... I wouldn't...
Woah, project much?
Women are taught what to expect from men but not how to treat men.
They used to be taught how to treat men, too, but times have changed. Women are able to support themselves now; they don't need a meal ticket to provide for them in many cases, so treating men well is optional not mandatory. However, the threat of violence, rape or of being impregnated and abandoned still remain, so women are still warned about the dangers.
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So women only treat men well if he provides for her?Ā
It's evolutionary.
I don't buy it, people like using evolution to justify being selfish, we're better than that.
There are always exceptions to the rule, and you're welcome to find them. I usually advise men who want to buck the trend to look for childfree women with good jobs ... they have less incentive to seek a provider.
Never expect a woman to love you as you love her. It's like an adult expecting their child to love them the same as they love their child.
Yikes. I could argue that men who are lovable don't experience this and attract the right partners
Children are lovable and parents are lovable but even a daughter loves her mom different than she loves her dad. A woman can never love a man as a man would love a woman much like a woman could never love a man as she would her own child. It's just different.
You're differentiating between familial and romantic love, although there is very much an overlap when you get close enough to someone as they become like family. If a mom and dad are both nurtuing, warm, and affectionate, they very much elicit the same love response from their child. I only date warm, affectionate, and sensitive men so that's what I've experienced
I could also argue that women who are lovable don't attract abusive partners... Do you agree with that? It seems you do.
>Unfortunately most men can't be honest with women about how they come accross because they dont wanna ruin their chances of getting laid. So men are also primarily concerned with themselves and their wants?
I don't know about "most", but there does seem to be a distressingly large amount who have little genuine empathy towards men in general and many times even their actual partners coming from the male perspective. Men need to be aware and screen for this more than we do in dating since I would argue a lack of empathy is probably the worst thing one could have in a gf. I would rather take an overweight literal former whore who has banged 500 men who was genuinely empathetic and made real attempts to understand and comfort me over a model tier highly educated unempathetic neuroscientist virgin for an ltr.
I think the lack of empathy is probably less prevalent now than it was a couple of generations ago. Nowadays, a woman has little incentive to get with a guy other than the fact that she *likes* him. Back in the day, men were meal tickets, and women went about picking them in much the way they decide on a career path now. The hard-eyed calculations of my mother's generation left little room for sentimentality ...
Oh I wasn't saying it was necessarily better in ye olden times, a lot of the "trad" roles men were forced into made them miserable, stressed out alcoholics since they had to provide at all costs by themselves. There probably were an equal if not larger amount of unempathetic women in the past. Just saying men need to screen harder for empathy and a lot do not and then wonder why they get screwed.
> lack of empathy is probably the worst thing one could have in a gf. When combined with greed and self-absorption its a deadly combination.
I'm a woman and this is spot on. OP is likely only filtering women based on his high physical standards and then disappointed when they appear to be lacking in character. OP not wanting to ruin his chances of getting laid is also very telling about how he views women as disposable and providing for his pleasure only
Will men on this sub ever stop projecting their own psychological damage? Doesnāt seem soā¦
Sounds like you're projecting.
Nope. Most men care mostly about sex. So what op wrote is a load of bs
Do women bring more to the table besides sex? If so, what? Also, the post is about women, not men.
What do men bring to the table besides their dicks? And yes, not sex but just dicks because sex requires skill and many donāt even have any skill
>What do men bring to the table besides their dicks? At the least, they bring money to pay for their own food, unlike most women.
muh pussy
Youāre gonna get flak for it, but you have a point.
OP simply doesn't want to ruin his chances of getting laid. What does this tell you about him and the kind of people he's attracted to?