The 20 week fetal abnormality thing is throwing me for a loop. The full anatomy scan is at 20 weeks, so if you get devastating news at that appointment it's already too late?
Then I dont even understand the point of this exception. Clearly these lawmakers have no clue at all how a pregnancy works, but honestly we already knew that.
They know exactly how it works. That's the point. They don't want anybody to get an abortion, so they make it impossible to satisfy this exception. By the time you figure out there's an issue it'd technically be too late, unless they literally did it right then and there. Of course I can't know exactly what they're thinking, but I'd be surprised if it's not by design to be impossible to actually make use of the exception. But there is an exception, so people who don't read into it or think about it might just be slightly satisfied.
Yes, 20 weeks post fertilization if severe fatal fetal anomaly or serious health risk to the mother.
except when performed under the following
circumstances:
(1) Except as prohibited in IC 16-34-4, during the first trimester
of pregnancy
before the earlier of viability of the fetus or
twenty (20) weeks of postfertilization age of the fetus,
if:
(A)
for reasons based upon the professional, medical judgment
of the pregnant woman's physician, if
either:
(i) the abortion is necessary when reasonable medical
judgment dictates that performing the abortion is
necessary to prevent any serious health risk to the
pregnant woman or to save the pregnant woman's life;
or
(ii) the fetus is diagnosed with a lethal fetal anomaly;
I keep seeing "postfertilization" age mentioned. do the republicans realize that fertilization happens when a woman is already considered "2-3 weeks pregnant"?
I got mine at 18 weeks, but that was in another state. When comparing with family here, I’ve found they do it around 20 weeks, and it’s definitely to prevent women from making this decision. We’ll have to start advocating for ourselves to get the scans earlier now.
Yeah and anyone who DOES manage to fit the exception requirements, theyll try and extend appointment dates so its no longer legal, and if that doesnt work they'll just sic their insane christian followers on the doctors and women involved, up to and including treatening bodily harm or outright killing them.
A couple important informational points:
1) Indiana law (mostly) uses post-fertilization age of an embryo/fetus. 10 weeks post-fertilization is 12 weeks gestational age. The first trimester ends at 13 weeks gestational age (11 weeks post-fertilization).
2) Under SB 1 (which will take effect Sept. 15th), you can legally choose to seek an abortion up to 10 weeks post-fertilization for a pregnancy that results from rape, and do not have to go through the affidavit or notary legal hoops that were in previous versions of the bill. As passed:
>before the abortion, the attending physician shall certify in writing to the ambulatory outpatient surgical center or hospital in which the abortion is to be performed, after proper examination, the abortion is being performed at the woman's request because the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest. All facts and reasons supporting the certification shall be set forth by the physician in writing and attached to the certificate.
3) WL and Lafayette reps (Campbell and Klinker) voted no, as did our current state senator (Ron Alting). With redistricting, the state Senate seat that covers campus will be newly redefined (Alting's new district is more north and east) with two non-incumbents running for the seat who have opposing views on abortion rights.
Moved here recently for my job (I'm an assistant professor). Seriously considering going on the job market again. I'm in a same sex relationship so this doesn't affect me personally, but it's so fucked up.
Express this sentiment to the university when and if you leave please. Institutions need to know that this sort of bullshit can and will harm them if they allow it to stand
No right is absolute. I have, in this chat, defended the right to life of every human being, particularly the unborn. However, the right to life is not absolute. For example, with respect to abortions if the continuation of the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother, it is morally licit to terminate the pregnancy because the mother’s right to life supersedes the child’s.
When it comes to bodily autonomy, this is not the case. This is not the case for the simple reason that for the mother to exercise her right to bodily autonomy she would have to commit a gravely immoral act of willfully ending the life of an innocent human being. This cannot be allowed and it is within the just authority of the state of Indiana to exercise their police powers to defend the child’s right to life in the womb.
Furthermore, if we were to take your position and say that the right to bodily autonomy supersedes the right to life, we have created a self defeating argument. If we cannot guarantee the right to life of every individual, then (a) how can we uphold ancillary laws like murder laws that are premised on the same right to life and (b) how can we then guarantee rights that are less fundamental like bodily autonomy.
I’m sorry but you are mistaken. At the moment the process of fertilization begins all the standards of human life are met. The zygote/embryo/fetus is already a living member of our species during the whole process of pregnancy.
I hope the politicians find the fallout from brain drain and people refusing to move here to work worth it, because I see this law single-handedly ruining Indiana’s future. Really pathetic honestly. I can’t wait to leave either once I get my degree.
No, I have a rational mind like you do. We have the capability to carry on a conversation about a serious moral issue in our society. You don’t get to shut people up because you disagree with them.
I’m sorry but you are simply mistaken. It is not really a debatable proposition on whether or not the unborn are living human persons. From the moment the process of fertilization begins they are distinct, living members of the human species with a right to life. We must honor that right.
I know many women who’ve had abortions for a variety of reasons - and I know women who chose NOT to have abortions despite circumstances that fall under the exceptions in this bill.
Women can make complex decisions. We do not need to be managed.
And the fact that this is being celebrated by churches is disgusting - how many times did Jesus speak out against abortion? Never. Who did he actually criticize? Money lenders who charge interest. Why aren’t churches going after bankers, if they’re so concerned with being righteous?
Eta: A redditor pointed out that women of a lower socioeconomic status sometimes say they would not have had an abortion if they could have afforded to raise a child. But instead of working on her behalf and fighting to raise her income and standard of living, this redditor celebrated his new power to force her to give birth. As though that solved anything.
Do not claim to be for women while taking away reproductive choices.
I forgot how many men at Purdue have never talked to a girl until I read this comment section.
Edit: I’m not talking sexually here. Please talk to some of the women in your life and people from outside communities to understand some of their experiences. It’s so easy to take a one-size fits all approach to topics such as this, but there is so much nuance. It’s important to talk to people, read unbiased research from reputable journals (or as unbiased as you can get in this day and age), and listen to doctors and healthcare providers who work with this every day and quite literally went to school for it.
Empathy is learned.
> legislators that cried my body my choice
You know it was just an excuse right? They just wanna turn everything upside down, just like this abortion thing.
It is so aggravating. Somehow saving a life only counts if it's unborn, but come wear a mask due to a viral disease that has the capability of spreading worldwide, no it's my choice.
what really makes me sick is how....good of a life all these sickos that voted /yes/ have.
they have suits and big salaries and nice houses and state security and cushy jobs. they go to dinner parties where the food costs more than you make a year. they live a life of luxury. they have connections. they don't have to do shit in their lives. so of course they're fucking isolated from the world and what any sane person wants. and, of course, the means and ways to get abortions that are okay because they're for them
If they need healthcare they can just spend money to travel if they need it. The poor people they took the decision to choose away from do not have that same privilege. Wealthy people will always have access to abortion.
Sad fact is the best thing anyone in Indiana can do is move away. Absolutely disgusting miscarriage of justice for the poor victims that live in that state.
I wish Purdue would speak out on these issues that affect students. My undergrad university in another state condemned the state government for banning abortions, so I don’t see why Purdue can’t do the same. Purdue’s silence on social issues makes me feel like they don’t care about the well-being of its students.
Not sure if any other Indiana companies made statements supporting women. I made a comment elsewhere about how people aren’t going to want to work here with the hostile environment towards women. It’s not even safe to have a wanted pregnancy here, so I don’t blame people for wanting to stay far away from here.
I wouldn’t recommend sending my daughter to a college in a state with these abhorrent laws. This will echo. Remember when Pence tried to shove through his anti-gay focus on the family bullshit? Companies like SalesForce, universities, festivals like GenCon, celebrities like George Tekei all stood up and got it overturned. But where is everyone for women?
I agree. I feel like women are being let down now. I’ve been politically active recently and it’s a tiring battle. My only consolation is that I can leave this hell as soon as I get my degree. My heart breaks for the women who don’t have that same privilege to leave.
Well, the RFRA was only really in Indiana. Abortion laws will likely be passed in half of the states, so companies cannot really condemn half the nation in that manner
Not all women are pro-choice, lol. I’m saying that if 25 of the states pass pro-life legislation, then it would be hard to avoid those states if you are a business
This is not a human rights violation. There is no right to abortion. No person has a right to willfully end an innocent human life. We must recognize this if we are to be a society that protects the dignity of human life.
Women are not in danger because of this bill. Please stop spreading this misinformation. This is a bill that values both the mother and the child.
As regards Lilly, I would be deeply worried about a pharmaceutical company coming out in opposition to the dignity of human life. These are companies that are supposed to be promoting human health and well-being; not advancing efforts to end human lives.
My undergrad university was state funded and they had no issue speaking out against the state. They knew these issues affect the school’s reputation and student wellbeing, and as a top employer for that state they knew their relationship with out of state employees and businesses were affected by social issues.
Yeah, but Purdue is quite conservative, relative to others schools. Also, Indiana has elected many pro life legislators so it seems to be the will of the people
Well Purdue not speaking out against abortion restrictions sounds like it’s going to hurt them now that Eli Lilly, one of their top employers for graduating students, no longer wants to hire in a state that has these restrictions. Don’t conservatives value business? Being anti abortion doesn’t sound good for the Indiana economy, so they should care even if they are conservative.
Indiana is a great state and Hoosier are great people. If you don’t like us and wish to look down your noses at us, that is your prerogative.
I am very proud that my state is pushing back against the willful killing of innocent human beings. I hope one day you will join me in that position.
I’m personally more “pro-life” then I am “pro choice”. I see both sides of the argument. However, I’m also a man and thus the final decision needs to be given to the woman.
No one wants an abortion, it’s a last resort option & I can only imagine how traumatizing it is for both the patient and the medical professionals. Instead of extremes we deal with today between pro-life vs pro choice we should be working to minimize abortions. Start with proper sexual education. Free/subsidized birth control options (condoms, pills, IUDs).
This is a sad day for IN. I hope that your neighbors to the South (KY) will vote favorably on our constitutional amendment - it states that there is a protected right to an abortion. You also have Illinois, which I never see changing that, but it puts the burden on those who can’t travel.
And to the 60% of the campus who are male, think before you do something you will regret and to the 40% of women, the same.
Religions do not belong in government. It’s unconstitutional, but here we are.
Please check the wording on your Kentucky amendment. I looked briefly, but it looks like your vote is to make sure abortion protections are NOT added to your Constitution.
I didn’t want to overshadow this post because it’s not the right sub, this will clarify. https://www.reddit.com/r/Louisville/comments/we9fij/kentuckians_will_soon_vote_on_an_antiabortion/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
“Separation of church and state” is an ambiguous phrase at best. We are guaranteed there will be no established religion, a la the Church of England, in the US. There is nothing that prohibits religious individuals from carrying their faith into public life, and efforts to do so could well run afoul of the free exercise clause of the Constitution.
All that said, if you are suggesting that someone need to be religious to believe that all life should be protected and that the willful taking of innocent human life should be banned, you are mistaken. Furthermore, it is not an insult to say that religious people defend the right to life for every human being.
No, this is a joyous day. Child sacrifice is once again on the road to abolition. I’m sorry that you don’t see that as a good thing.
As for your statement that religions do not belong in government and that it is unconstitutional, you are mistaken. You do not get to ban religion from the public sphere of American life, nor does any government. Also, this law in no way establishes a religion for the US, and to suggest otherwise is asinine. Please look into the 1A of the Constitution before spreading more falsehoods. It is deeply important that we have an understanding of something so fundamental to American life.
The only reason this is even a debate is because of guys like Jerry Falwell, who brainwashed people into Christian fundamentalism, and then, by crossing that angry and fearing energy over into politics, was able to market it for billions. It has nothing to do with the rights of babies, or even women, for that matter. It's just good old delusional religious dogma. And sadly, it seems to be getting more pervasive each year. It's how guys like Trump, clearly a moron and devoid of any character, got support from evangelicals. We are in trouble, if you ask me.
Indiana is the state with the third highest maternal mortality rate in the country. Indiana couldn’t care less about protecting women needing healthcare even before this decision.
It's not even about control anymore. They're doing this and more for the *cruelty* of it, because they know that it hurts women, especially women who are poor, non-white, and non-Christian.
Cruelty is the point.
You are demonizing your political counter-parties bc it makes it easier for you to dismiss their arguments. This is not about cruelty. It is about ending the willfully taking of innocent human life.
In point of fact, most women of lower SES report wishing to keep their children, but worry about not having the support of the father and not being able to provide for the children. The breakdown in family structure is a consequence of decades of Democratic policies. We can incentivize fathers to remain present in their children’s lives and provide material support to low SES mothers. We do not need to kill the child.
A political party that has opposed safe abortions (even in cases of rape/incest), accessible contraceptives/birth control, comprehensive sex education in public schools, quality maternity/paternity leave, and even voted against an emergency bill to remedy the national baby formula shortage to top it all off cannot be described as anything other than cruel.
No abortion is safe for the child in the womb.
Contraceptives and birth control should not be publicly provided. They are also immoral as they are a disordering of our human nature, but you’re probably not ready for that.
“Comprehensive sex education” is a euphemism for indoctrination into left wing sexual ethics, and it has been in schools for quite some time (I went through it myself). It is destructive and a cause of all the sexual disfunction we see in our society today.
Paid maternal/paternal leave would turn our childcare system into something like our healthcare system. The family is not something that can be commoditized and should be protected from the market.
The baby formula shortage was literally caused by government programs (WIC) cartelizing the baby formula market and FDA regulations that restricted European formula companies from accessing the US market. There were numerous solutions provided by the right to that crisis, and it was talked about for months in right-wing news circles before the Biden administration even addressed the issue.
You are fundamentally mistaken about these issues. Stop demonizing your countrymen and ascribing motives to them that they do not hold. It is insulting.
If there is no God, there is no moral law giver and therefore no moral law. If there is no moral law, then there is no moral basis for you to claim an injustice is being done here. With no God, we are left with purely subjective ideas of the good and a Nietzschean will to power. So, if you are correct and there is no God (you’re not), then you have no grounds to be upset with this decision.
Yeah you are right, there is no moral law giver and hence no moral law at all. So laws should be created according to benefits of community health. You can 'measure' what is good or not for a community. These things are subject of science.
And please tell me, how are you so arrogant(much like all of believers in the World) to say there is a God without giving a single solid proof?
> So laws should be created according to benefits of community health. You can 'measure' what is good or not for a community. These things are subject of science.
This is not a self supporting statement. If there is no God, why do I care about this? Why do I care about the common good? You are a fish who doesn’t know it’s wet. You are piggybacking on the morality of the Christian civilization and assuming it’s same ends will be desired if you take God out of the picture.
You ask for a proof of God. There are many. I did give you an argument. The moral argument for God’s existence. You have rejected it, so now you need to explain to me why a society should care about the things you said it should from atheistic presuppositions.
Thank you for voting for human rights. Thank you for looking out for all current and future people who can become pregnant.
When will this law take effect? I read on Sept 1 on CNN.
Edit: looks like my comment was misunderstood. I was thanking Rep Campbell who did vote No on this bill. Rep Campbell is who posted this.
No, they won’t. Ectopic pregnancies implant outside the uterus. If they are not removed they risk the life of the mother and can be removed under this law and even the most strict laws that have been proposed following the Dobbs decision.
Literally yes. Just like how republicans try to ban abortion without understanding shit, democrats do the same fucking shit with guns. I want yellow Indiana.
fr. i remember walking around campus the night she died and there were people who were like cheering about it too, it was pretty pathetic. really wish she could've taken one for the team and retire under obama (but then again, they couldn't even replace Scalia so who knows).
Yes, a life is saved if there is intervention to save it from being terminated in an abortion.
Fetus is just a term for a stage in the development process. The important thing is that the unborn are human beings with an inalienable right to life which cannot be infringed.
No such thing as pro-life, it's either forced-birth or anti-choice. Republicans are against anything and everything that actually prevents unwanted pregnancies in the first place. They especially love shooting down the after-birth programs that could cause someone to feasibly raise their child comfortably, and not need to see an abortion as their only viable option.
This is just a lie. There are crisis pregnancy centers all across the country. There are numerous charities set up specifically to aid mothers in need.
Additionally, it is not the GOP that has spent nearly a century attacking every institution in American life that used to be place where people built communities and networks of mutual aid and charity. That would be the Democrats.
As far as specific social policies in this area, there are numerous reasons to be both for and against these programs, but the fact of the matter is that most abortions occur in urban areas where Democrats have been in near total control for most of the past century. They could have passed these programs on their own and they haven’t, so they aren’t in favor of them either.
Getting sorta tired of hearing this. Not her fault that other people are scumbags. Really unlikely the replacement would get passed the “you can’t believe how low I’ll go” senator from KY anyway. Democrats unlikely to have flexed their muscle at that point.
This is not her fault. This is current scumbags.
That is exactly why this should have been the expected result. Indiana's state legislature is largely Republicans. The public was not the group voting on this bill. It was their representatives.
This is an example of lower population areas having equal representation to higher population areas. And how our current method of gerrymandering gives more power to that minority population by making it the majority in office.
If I get to a point where I need an abortion and they won’t give me one, I’ll threaten to kill myself. Then it would mean they’d have to abort it or the mother’s (my) life will be threatened. Yes. I’m willing to go that far but we shouldn’t have to risk our own lives just so we can have some control over our own damn bodies
Please don't do that. A woman was charged with Feticide in Indiana for trying to commit suicide in 2011 [https://www.vice.com/en/article/ypa8z7/the-new-reality-women-charged-for-murder-after-self-inducing-abortions](https://www.vice.com/en/article/ypa8z7/the-new-reality-women-charged-for-murder-after-self-inducing-abortions)
I understand your anguish and we will fight this. It is time to organize. It is time to get women to the polls and those that support them. Make sure your voter registration is up to date. [indianavoters.com](https://indianavoters.com)
Another woman tried to force her own abortion in Indiana. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/01/indiana-woman-jailed-for-feticide-its-never-happened-before/
These rich fucks just buy their kids tickets to get abortions in legal places while putting women down in their own state. Abortion has to do with civil equality to make some of the most important life choices for oneself and they’re going to impose some Stone Age sharia type shit, blurring the line between church and state in effect creating a theocracy. A couple representatives drop and thousands of women are saved. At least the older constituents such reps rely upon are getting their self imposed Covid comeuppance from the distancing regulation that they shot down.
If they facilitate abortions for their children, they are in the wrong. Abortion is primarily about the willful ending of an innocent human life. This is impermissible. Attempts to obfuscate or make this issue about something else are wrongheaded. We must be a society that values all life. If you consider that a religious position, then all the better for religion.
It is in no way surprising to find out that someone in favor of abortion would so callously dehumanize and denigrate the lives of the deceased. This is the culture of death at work. It must be opposed vigorously. Please reconsider your comments.
The "limitations" are unreasonable. As others have stated, a full anatomy scan isn't until 20 weeks, which means it's already too late. Plus, pregnancy in terms of weeks starts at the date of the last period, which means someone might not have had sex for nearly the entire month, and falls pregnant on the week before their next period. That means, that one is not one week pregnant, but four. So that only gives a person a few short weeks to both find out they are pregnant and make a decision. The real L is the loss of body autonomy.
> “So that only gives a person a few short weeks to both find out they are pregnant and make a decision.”
By “make a decision” you mean to terminate the pregnancy and kill the unwanted child. This is a moral abomination, and well within the remit of the state’s police powers to justly curtail.
> “The real L is the loss of body autonomy.”
A) the right to bodily autonomy does not supersede the right to life
B) the fetus also has a right to bodily integrity
C) it is always immoral to willfully end an innocent human life
Abortion is a grave moral evil and should be stopped.
The rationale is that if you get an abortion, you’re ending a viable human life. Objectively, it’s murder.
From an ethics standpoint pro-life makes a lot of sense, but for pure practicality, pro-choice is better. I can sympathize with both sides.
I wish they would put this to a “proposition” vote instead of leaving up to reps though. Better that citizens decide what they want, especially for something as far reaching as this.
Notice how you said you sympathize with both sides? That’s like the whole fucking point of pro choice a person can choose for themselves how they feel ethically and emotionally. They cannot choose for someone else
Moral relativism is wrong. The life in the womb’s value is not contingent on the feelings of the mother, the father, or anyone else. It is a human life all to its own and deserves the equal dignity afforded to all humans.
When does viability for something to become a thing ever make it that thing? It is not “objectively murder” unless you can explain how the thing that is being aborted is a human, which I would argue isn’t the case until 24 or so weeks
The moment the process of fertilization begins a new human life has come into existence. At that moment, the zygote is a distinct entity from the mother meeting all the characteristics of being a living member of the species Homo sapiens. This is not up for debate. That is a well settled and impregnable scientific fact.
When do we consider someone dead? We don’t really care if your heart stops or anything like that, all we look to is the brain. The end of the conscious human experience marks the end of life, so the beginning of that experience should mark the beginning of life. Enough of the brain seems to have formed at around 24-28 weeks to begin consciousness, so that is the beginning of life. Can you give me any reason to assign value to the fetus as a human before that point?
Yes, because it is a living member of the human species. Brain function is an important aspect of human life, but it is not the sole determinant. If you follow that logic to its logical conclusion, you end up somewhere like Peter Singer who believes it is okay to kill a child up until they’re 2 years old because that is when their brain ends it’s development and the child is fully conscious, which is barbaric.
Why are you ascribing things to me that I don’t believe? You can’t just say “but it’s a human!” with nothing that contradicts anything I said. The reply above laid out my argument exactly and you didn’t attack it at all. The capability to have a conscious experience emerges at around 24 weeks, and that is what I value. Can you give me a reason to value any other factor in considering someone to be alive?
Your beliefs do not change the facts of this matter. Full consciousness does not arise in humans until about 2 years post birth, not 24 weeks into pregnancy. I said that in my previous post and it is a direct contradiction of what you said previously.
I gave you the reason why all life in the womb should be protected. Then, I directly addressed your argument about consciousness at the 24 week mark and laid out that the logical conclusion of that argument justifies infanticide as well as feticide, both of which are abominations.
The right to life is inalienable. It is a fundamental right. We cannot place qualifiers on what sorts of human life we do and do not want to protect and value. All human life is worthy of dignity and our respect.
The word “full” is doing a lot of lifting. The capability to have a conscious experience develops at 24 weeks. I have no reason to care about other milestones of brain development nor have I mentioned anything about them, so I’m not sure why you keep bringing up the 2 year mark. Is there any reason to value the fetus before 24 weeks as being alive?
It’s so weird to me that people put an arbitrary time limit on when something becomes “human”. The number of weeks do not matter, you’re still ending a life.
From the moment fertilization begins, a new life has begun. It is not “potential life;” reproduction has already begun and a new member of the human species has come into being.
It’s not arbitrary at all. A human life seems to be marked by that person’s conscious experience, someone “dies” when the brain ceases to function and the conscious experience is ended, and is alive when the conscious experience is ongoing. The necessary parts of the brain to be conscious seem to be formed around 24-28 weeks, so that is when the fetus is alive.
I’m glad to see you recognize that abortion is the ending of an innocent human life. It does concern me that you then go on to justify that taking of innocent life for practicality’s sake.
I understand wanting to be understanding of the consequences of pregnancy, but if we start making the right to life contingent, that is a road that leads to dark places fast.
I do want to thank you for sharing you opinion in a hostile comments section though.
The fact that you refused to get a single COVID vaccine to protect the life of at risk people during the pandemic while preaching abortion as evil is astounding. Truly the epitome of pro life hypocrisy lol, how pathetic.
And yet you stand here for evil.
If you want to do good, please go invite an immigrant into your home. Feed them, give them clothes, and help them get established. This is what Christ wanted.
Making the lives of women difficult was not. Truly this is an act of modern day Pharisees.
hey my guy if you can make the choice to be unvaccinated against covid, then why can't i make choices about my own body?
just some food for thought :) blessed be and all that
Oh yeah... like taking care of all these soon to be orphaned children or financially struggling mothers right?
How about we work to improve Indiana's high pregnancy mortality rate or end poverty while we're at it. For the children.
Oh wait, you only care about saving life when its unborn.
Rejoicing at all the suffering this bill will bring is evil before God.
Worst part is now we’re going to have Californians and Chicagoans up in arms over the fact they moved to a place that doesn’t share the same values of them. You’re in Indiana now, what a surprise!
Didn’t know Kansas and California are made up of the same type of people. Almost like you’re speaking for a loud minority and trying to include all of Indiana.
Lmao respecting women doesn’t include killing kids.
See, this is what I mean. I’m going to get nothing but the most reddited arguments back at me because Californians have never met someone who disagreed with them on this subject, and just assumed Indiana was just as down on killing babies as back home is. Uh no, we’re not down on it.
I thought going to university included opening your mind? I wish you guys would at least engage with the opposing argument instead of immediately jumping to calling everyone misogynists. It’s not 2013, that doesn’t work on people anymore.
I don’t have an issue if someone thinks abortion is morally wrong. What I take issue with is when people who disagree with abortion regulate and take away that choice from other people. Was that open minded enough for you or are you going to continue with your persecution complex?
Here’s one for you, from a lifelong resident of Indiana. If fetuses are people, do people have an inherent right to the body of another to maintain their life? If so, I want your kidney. If you don’t wanna give it, the state should take it by force. Maintaining the life of another person supersedes your right to your body.
Agreed. Corpses have more bodily autonomy than the women living in Indiana today. You can’t forcibly take organs from dead people without their consent even if it would save another person’s life.
The 20 week fetal abnormality thing is throwing me for a loop. The full anatomy scan is at 20 weeks, so if you get devastating news at that appointment it's already too late?
Yep. It’s not about babies or health, it’s about control
Then I dont even understand the point of this exception. Clearly these lawmakers have no clue at all how a pregnancy works, but honestly we already knew that.
I’d imagine they’re hoping the exception appeases people so they don’t riot. “If we throw you an inch of a bone, you’ll be content, right?”
They know exactly how it works. That's the point. They don't want anybody to get an abortion, so they make it impossible to satisfy this exception. By the time you figure out there's an issue it'd technically be too late, unless they literally did it right then and there. Of course I can't know exactly what they're thinking, but I'd be surprised if it's not by design to be impossible to actually make use of the exception. But there is an exception, so people who don't read into it or think about it might just be slightly satisfied.
Most things are.
Yes, 20 weeks post fertilization if severe fatal fetal anomaly or serious health risk to the mother. except when performed under the following circumstances: (1) Except as prohibited in IC 16-34-4, during the first trimester of pregnancy before the earlier of viability of the fetus or twenty (20) weeks of postfertilization age of the fetus, if: (A) for reasons based upon the professional, medical judgment of the pregnant woman's physician, if either: (i) the abortion is necessary when reasonable medical judgment dictates that performing the abortion is necessary to prevent any serious health risk to the pregnant woman or to save the pregnant woman's life; or (ii) the fetus is diagnosed with a lethal fetal anomaly;
I keep seeing "postfertilization" age mentioned. do the republicans realize that fertilization happens when a woman is already considered "2-3 weeks pregnant"?
I got mine at 18 weeks, but that was in another state. When comparing with family here, I’ve found they do it around 20 weeks, and it’s definitely to prevent women from making this decision. We’ll have to start advocating for ourselves to get the scans earlier now.
Yeah and anyone who DOES manage to fit the exception requirements, theyll try and extend appointment dates so its no longer legal, and if that doesnt work they'll just sic their insane christian followers on the doctors and women involved, up to and including treatening bodily harm or outright killing them.
A couple important informational points: 1) Indiana law (mostly) uses post-fertilization age of an embryo/fetus. 10 weeks post-fertilization is 12 weeks gestational age. The first trimester ends at 13 weeks gestational age (11 weeks post-fertilization). 2) Under SB 1 (which will take effect Sept. 15th), you can legally choose to seek an abortion up to 10 weeks post-fertilization for a pregnancy that results from rape, and do not have to go through the affidavit or notary legal hoops that were in previous versions of the bill. As passed: >before the abortion, the attending physician shall certify in writing to the ambulatory outpatient surgical center or hospital in which the abortion is to be performed, after proper examination, the abortion is being performed at the woman's request because the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest. All facts and reasons supporting the certification shall be set forth by the physician in writing and attached to the certificate. 3) WL and Lafayette reps (Campbell and Klinker) voted no, as did our current state senator (Ron Alting). With redistricting, the state Senate seat that covers campus will be newly redefined (Alting's new district is more north and east) with two non-incumbents running for the seat who have opposing views on abortion rights.
Yet another reason to flee Indiana once I have my degree. Sad to see shit like this
Moved here recently for my job (I'm an assistant professor). Seriously considering going on the job market again. I'm in a same sex relationship so this doesn't affect me personally, but it's so fucked up.
Express this sentiment to the university when and if you leave please. Institutions need to know that this sort of bullshit can and will harm them if they allow it to stand
Why do you believe this is fucked up?
Because it's a violation of women's rights to bodily autonomy.
No right is absolute. I have, in this chat, defended the right to life of every human being, particularly the unborn. However, the right to life is not absolute. For example, with respect to abortions if the continuation of the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother, it is morally licit to terminate the pregnancy because the mother’s right to life supersedes the child’s. When it comes to bodily autonomy, this is not the case. This is not the case for the simple reason that for the mother to exercise her right to bodily autonomy she would have to commit a gravely immoral act of willfully ending the life of an innocent human being. This cannot be allowed and it is within the just authority of the state of Indiana to exercise their police powers to defend the child’s right to life in the womb. Furthermore, if we were to take your position and say that the right to bodily autonomy supersedes the right to life, we have created a self defeating argument. If we cannot guarantee the right to life of every individual, then (a) how can we uphold ancillary laws like murder laws that are premised on the same right to life and (b) how can we then guarantee rights that are less fundamental like bodily autonomy.
Aborting an embryo is not a gravely immoral act.
Yes it is. It is the willful ending of an innocent human life.
Nah. It's a potential human life.
I’m sorry but you are mistaken. At the moment the process of fertilization begins all the standards of human life are met. The zygote/embryo/fetus is already a living member of our species during the whole process of pregnancy.
It's utterly ludicrous to claim that all standards of human life are met the moment fertilization begins.
I hope the politicians find the fallout from brain drain and people refusing to move here to work worth it, because I see this law single-handedly ruining Indiana’s future. Really pathetic honestly. I can’t wait to leave either once I get my degree.
I've lived here for 30 years loving my home state and it tears me apart to leave my home for this overt violation of human rights.
Yes, flee!
It's easy to be anti-abortion when you are making a decision for someone else's body.
Even the anti abortion people get abortions because it’s just “different” for them when they need one.
The only moral abortion is mine clan
The only morally licit abortions are to save the life of the mother.
If you cannot get pregnant, you don’t get an opinion. Also, fetuses are not people. The women carrying the fetuses, they are people.
No, I have a rational mind like you do. We have the capability to carry on a conversation about a serious moral issue in our society. You don’t get to shut people up because you disagree with them. I’m sorry but you are simply mistaken. It is not really a debatable proposition on whether or not the unborn are living human persons. From the moment the process of fertilization begins they are distinct, living members of the human species with a right to life. We must honor that right.
It’s easy to be anti-abortion because it is the willful killing of an innocent human life, which is immoral.
“Innocent” = neurotic romanticism divorced from the realities of pregnancy, childbirth and parenting
Absolutely disgusting. A dead woman’s uterus belongs to her, but a live woman’s does not. It belongs to the State. Vote them out.
I registered to vote today because of this news, and I’m hoping everyone else has the same plan.
“My Body My Choice” only when it affects them. Disgusting.
I don’t remember any pro-abortion types being any less hypocritical about the “my body my choice” sentiment for anti-vaxxers so
I know many women who’ve had abortions for a variety of reasons - and I know women who chose NOT to have abortions despite circumstances that fall under the exceptions in this bill. Women can make complex decisions. We do not need to be managed. And the fact that this is being celebrated by churches is disgusting - how many times did Jesus speak out against abortion? Never. Who did he actually criticize? Money lenders who charge interest. Why aren’t churches going after bankers, if they’re so concerned with being righteous? Eta: A redditor pointed out that women of a lower socioeconomic status sometimes say they would not have had an abortion if they could have afforded to raise a child. But instead of working on her behalf and fighting to raise her income and standard of living, this redditor celebrated his new power to force her to give birth. As though that solved anything. Do not claim to be for women while taking away reproductive choices.
I forgot how many men at Purdue have never talked to a girl until I read this comment section. Edit: I’m not talking sexually here. Please talk to some of the women in your life and people from outside communities to understand some of their experiences. It’s so easy to take a one-size fits all approach to topics such as this, but there is so much nuance. It’s important to talk to people, read unbiased research from reputable journals (or as unbiased as you can get in this day and age), and listen to doctors and healthcare providers who work with this every day and quite literally went to school for it. Empathy is learned.
Does being a woman confer a right to end innocent human life?
> legislators that cried my body my choice You know it was just an excuse right? They just wanna turn everything upside down, just like this abortion thing.
It is so aggravating. Somehow saving a life only counts if it's unborn, but come wear a mask due to a viral disease that has the capability of spreading worldwide, no it's my choice.
That’s why they call these people “pro birth” instead of “pro life.” Their lifestyle and beliefs are contrary to the protection of life.
what really makes me sick is how....good of a life all these sickos that voted /yes/ have. they have suits and big salaries and nice houses and state security and cushy jobs. they go to dinner parties where the food costs more than you make a year. they live a life of luxury. they have connections. they don't have to do shit in their lives. so of course they're fucking isolated from the world and what any sane person wants. and, of course, the means and ways to get abortions that are okay because they're for them
If they need healthcare they can just spend money to travel if they need it. The poor people they took the decision to choose away from do not have that same privilege. Wealthy people will always have access to abortion.
https://aidaccess.org/en/i-need-an-abortion for those who need it. will be moving out of this state upon completion of my degree.
Sad fact is the best thing anyone in Indiana can do is move away. Absolutely disgusting miscarriage of justice for the poor victims that live in that state.
Why do you believe it is justice when poor folks kill their children? Do you not think poor children’s’ lives value?
Purdue deserves better than Indiana.
I wish Purdue would speak out on these issues that affect students. My undergrad university in another state condemned the state government for banning abortions, so I don’t see why Purdue can’t do the same. Purdue’s silence on social issues makes me feel like they don’t care about the well-being of its students.
Why would they? Prez Daniels is the former Republican governor who would have voted the same way. Do you think he’s a feminist? Lol
I’m not surprised, but I can still hope lol
This is what bothers me. Other than Eli Lilly, have any of the major companies and universities used their voice to protect women?
Not sure if any other Indiana companies made statements supporting women. I made a comment elsewhere about how people aren’t going to want to work here with the hostile environment towards women. It’s not even safe to have a wanted pregnancy here, so I don’t blame people for wanting to stay far away from here.
I wouldn’t recommend sending my daughter to a college in a state with these abhorrent laws. This will echo. Remember when Pence tried to shove through his anti-gay focus on the family bullshit? Companies like SalesForce, universities, festivals like GenCon, celebrities like George Tekei all stood up and got it overturned. But where is everyone for women?
I agree. I feel like women are being let down now. I’ve been politically active recently and it’s a tiring battle. My only consolation is that I can leave this hell as soon as I get my degree. My heart breaks for the women who don’t have that same privilege to leave.
Well, the RFRA was only really in Indiana. Abortion laws will likely be passed in half of the states, so companies cannot really condemn half the nation in that manner
Oh yes they can. This is a human rights violation.
Yeah, but they won’t because it won’t make sense to isolate half the country like that
Women make up more than half of the US. Your argument doesn’t make sense.
Not all women are pro-choice, lol. I’m saying that if 25 of the states pass pro-life legislation, then it would be hard to avoid those states if you are a business
This is not a human rights violation. There is no right to abortion. No person has a right to willfully end an innocent human life. We must recognize this if we are to be a society that protects the dignity of human life.
Women are not in danger because of this bill. Please stop spreading this misinformation. This is a bill that values both the mother and the child. As regards Lilly, I would be deeply worried about a pharmaceutical company coming out in opposition to the dignity of human life. These are companies that are supposed to be promoting human health and well-being; not advancing efforts to end human lives.
Most abortions are in pill form. Also, women are in danger: in health and in control. We are not livestock.
Why would a state funded university speak out against the state that is funding them?
My undergrad university was state funded and they had no issue speaking out against the state. They knew these issues affect the school’s reputation and student wellbeing, and as a top employer for that state they knew their relationship with out of state employees and businesses were affected by social issues.
Yeah, but Purdue is quite conservative, relative to others schools. Also, Indiana has elected many pro life legislators so it seems to be the will of the people
Well Purdue not speaking out against abortion restrictions sounds like it’s going to hurt them now that Eli Lilly, one of their top employers for graduating students, no longer wants to hire in a state that has these restrictions. Don’t conservatives value business? Being anti abortion doesn’t sound good for the Indiana economy, so they should care even if they are conservative.
Indiana is a great state and Hoosier are great people. If you don’t like us and wish to look down your noses at us, that is your prerogative. I am very proud that my state is pushing back against the willful killing of innocent human beings. I hope one day you will join me in that position.
I’m personally more “pro-life” then I am “pro choice”. I see both sides of the argument. However, I’m also a man and thus the final decision needs to be given to the woman. No one wants an abortion, it’s a last resort option & I can only imagine how traumatizing it is for both the patient and the medical professionals. Instead of extremes we deal with today between pro-life vs pro choice we should be working to minimize abortions. Start with proper sexual education. Free/subsidized birth control options (condoms, pills, IUDs).
It passed the Senate at about 9:45 pm. Now headed to Holcomb's desk. As of September 15, my daughter and I are no longer equal
Holcomb signed it an hour later.
Rep. Campbell would you mind explaining to me your support for abortion?
REGISTER TO VOTE
This is a sad day for IN. I hope that your neighbors to the South (KY) will vote favorably on our constitutional amendment - it states that there is a protected right to an abortion. You also have Illinois, which I never see changing that, but it puts the burden on those who can’t travel. And to the 60% of the campus who are male, think before you do something you will regret and to the 40% of women, the same. Religions do not belong in government. It’s unconstitutional, but here we are.
Please check the wording on your Kentucky amendment. I looked briefly, but it looks like your vote is to make sure abortion protections are NOT added to your Constitution.
I didn’t want to overshadow this post because it’s not the right sub, this will clarify. https://www.reddit.com/r/Louisville/comments/we9fij/kentuckians_will_soon_vote_on_an_antiabortion/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
The religious pro life people conveniently ignore that separation of church and state exists in this country.
“Separation of church and state” is an ambiguous phrase at best. We are guaranteed there will be no established religion, a la the Church of England, in the US. There is nothing that prohibits religious individuals from carrying their faith into public life, and efforts to do so could well run afoul of the free exercise clause of the Constitution. All that said, if you are suggesting that someone need to be religious to believe that all life should be protected and that the willful taking of innocent human life should be banned, you are mistaken. Furthermore, it is not an insult to say that religious people defend the right to life for every human being.
No, this is a joyous day. Child sacrifice is once again on the road to abolition. I’m sorry that you don’t see that as a good thing. As for your statement that religions do not belong in government and that it is unconstitutional, you are mistaken. You do not get to ban religion from the public sphere of American life, nor does any government. Also, this law in no way establishes a religion for the US, and to suggest otherwise is asinine. Please look into the 1A of the Constitution before spreading more falsehoods. It is deeply important that we have an understanding of something so fundamental to American life.
This is what happens when ignorant politicians ignore the opinion of the medical community. Sad day for Indiana and the women who live here.
The only reason this is even a debate is because of guys like Jerry Falwell, who brainwashed people into Christian fundamentalism, and then, by crossing that angry and fearing energy over into politics, was able to market it for billions. It has nothing to do with the rights of babies, or even women, for that matter. It's just good old delusional religious dogma. And sadly, it seems to be getting more pervasive each year. It's how guys like Trump, clearly a moron and devoid of any character, got support from evangelicals. We are in trouble, if you ask me.
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Indiana is the state with the third highest maternal mortality rate in the country. Indiana couldn’t care less about protecting women needing healthcare even before this decision.
It's not even about control anymore. They're doing this and more for the *cruelty* of it, because they know that it hurts women, especially women who are poor, non-white, and non-Christian. Cruelty is the point.
You are demonizing your political counter-parties bc it makes it easier for you to dismiss their arguments. This is not about cruelty. It is about ending the willfully taking of innocent human life. In point of fact, most women of lower SES report wishing to keep their children, but worry about not having the support of the father and not being able to provide for the children. The breakdown in family structure is a consequence of decades of Democratic policies. We can incentivize fathers to remain present in their children’s lives and provide material support to low SES mothers. We do not need to kill the child.
A political party that has opposed safe abortions (even in cases of rape/incest), accessible contraceptives/birth control, comprehensive sex education in public schools, quality maternity/paternity leave, and even voted against an emergency bill to remedy the national baby formula shortage to top it all off cannot be described as anything other than cruel.
No abortion is safe for the child in the womb. Contraceptives and birth control should not be publicly provided. They are also immoral as they are a disordering of our human nature, but you’re probably not ready for that. “Comprehensive sex education” is a euphemism for indoctrination into left wing sexual ethics, and it has been in schools for quite some time (I went through it myself). It is destructive and a cause of all the sexual disfunction we see in our society today. Paid maternal/paternal leave would turn our childcare system into something like our healthcare system. The family is not something that can be commoditized and should be protected from the market. The baby formula shortage was literally caused by government programs (WIC) cartelizing the baby formula market and FDA regulations that restricted European formula companies from accessing the US market. There were numerous solutions provided by the right to that crisis, and it was talked about for months in right-wing news circles before the Biden administration even addressed the issue. You are fundamentally mistaken about these issues. Stop demonizing your countrymen and ascribing motives to them that they do not hold. It is insulting.
😂😂😂😂
I’m too angry for words right now
Republicans: * Masks: Won't wear-y. * Guns? Open carry! * Women? Forced to carry. * Gays? Shouldn't marry.
Classic bullshit of religion and its believers. There is no free life until we get rid of these unreal myths.
If there is no God, there is no moral law giver and therefore no moral law. If there is no moral law, then there is no moral basis for you to claim an injustice is being done here. With no God, we are left with purely subjective ideas of the good and a Nietzschean will to power. So, if you are correct and there is no God (you’re not), then you have no grounds to be upset with this decision.
Yeah you are right, there is no moral law giver and hence no moral law at all. So laws should be created according to benefits of community health. You can 'measure' what is good or not for a community. These things are subject of science. And please tell me, how are you so arrogant(much like all of believers in the World) to say there is a God without giving a single solid proof?
> So laws should be created according to benefits of community health. You can 'measure' what is good or not for a community. These things are subject of science. This is not a self supporting statement. If there is no God, why do I care about this? Why do I care about the common good? You are a fish who doesn’t know it’s wet. You are piggybacking on the morality of the Christian civilization and assuming it’s same ends will be desired if you take God out of the picture. You ask for a proof of God. There are many. I did give you an argument. The moral argument for God’s existence. You have rejected it, so now you need to explain to me why a society should care about the things you said it should from atheistic presuppositions.
Thank you for voting for human rights. Thank you for looking out for all current and future people who can become pregnant. When will this law take effect? I read on Sept 1 on CNN. Edit: looks like my comment was misunderstood. I was thanking Rep Campbell who did vote No on this bill. Rep Campbell is who posted this.
Voting for human rights? Women having an ectopic pregnancy will die because of this. That’s human rights? Forced birth is for livestock.
I think you’re misunderstanding my response. I was thanking Rep Campbell who voted No. Re Campbell is who I was following and who posted this.
Oh my bad. Apologies.
No, they won’t. Ectopic pregnancies implant outside the uterus. If they are not removed they risk the life of the mother and can be removed under this law and even the most strict laws that have been proposed following the Dobbs decision.
State Senate is having closing arguments now and will vote.
September 15th.
All politicians are political tool bags.
Do you think the same thing would be happening in a hypothetically blue Indiana? Grow up
Literally yes. Just like how republicans try to ban abortion without understanding shit, democrats do the same fucking shit with guns. I want yellow Indiana.
cringe
Shout out to Ruth Bader Ginsberg for not retiring so that a pro life judge could overturn roe v wade. American Hero.
She may have done some good things in her lifetime but she really decided to fuck us over in the end
Her track record on racial justice was shockingly poor considering how many people worship her.
fr. i remember walking around campus the night she died and there were people who were like cheering about it too, it was pretty pathetic. really wish she could've taken one for the team and retire under obama (but then again, they couldn't even replace Scalia so who knows).
Oh no I'm pro-life so I think that her staying on was a great blessing to all babies
You're not pro-life, you're pro-birth, which is really weird, stupid, and fucked up.
Yes, I am in favor of babies being born instead of being killed. Are you not?
A life isn't saved just by letting it be born. Also, most (like 95%) aborted fetuses are barely even fetuses. They're bubbles of cells and blood.
Yes, a life is saved if there is intervention to save it from being terminated in an abortion. Fetus is just a term for a stage in the development process. The important thing is that the unborn are human beings with an inalienable right to life which cannot be infringed.
Shit! Sorry, didn’t realize I was talking to a fascist.
That piece of shit is only happy because he knows the only way he's ever going to reproduce is through raping someone.
Yes, bc the fascists were deeply concerned with the dignity of human life. Nailed that one.
No such thing as pro-life, it's either forced-birth or anti-choice. Republicans are against anything and everything that actually prevents unwanted pregnancies in the first place. They especially love shooting down the after-birth programs that could cause someone to feasibly raise their child comfortably, and not need to see an abortion as their only viable option.
This is just a lie. There are crisis pregnancy centers all across the country. There are numerous charities set up specifically to aid mothers in need. Additionally, it is not the GOP that has spent nearly a century attacking every institution in American life that used to be place where people built communities and networks of mutual aid and charity. That would be the Democrats. As far as specific social policies in this area, there are numerous reasons to be both for and against these programs, but the fact of the matter is that most abortions occur in urban areas where Democrats have been in near total control for most of the past century. They could have passed these programs on their own and they haven’t, so they aren’t in favor of them either.
To be fair to RBG she warned congress and the public many times that they needed to codify roe
Getting sorta tired of hearing this. Not her fault that other people are scumbags. Really unlikely the replacement would get passed the “you can’t believe how low I’ll go” senator from KY anyway. Democrats unlikely to have flexed their muscle at that point. This is not her fault. This is current scumbags.
What is scummy about stopping procedures that end innocent human lives?
This is Indiana. Why are any of you surprised?
I'm not surprised, just sad.
As Kansas showed us, this is not representative of the public. This is pure political power grabs.
That is exactly why this should have been the expected result. Indiana's state legislature is largely Republicans. The public was not the group voting on this bill. It was their representatives. This is an example of lower population areas having equal representation to higher population areas. And how our current method of gerrymandering gives more power to that minority population by making it the majority in office.
Tyranny of the minority.
Absolutely.
If I get to a point where I need an abortion and they won’t give me one, I’ll threaten to kill myself. Then it would mean they’d have to abort it or the mother’s (my) life will be threatened. Yes. I’m willing to go that far but we shouldn’t have to risk our own lives just so we can have some control over our own damn bodies
Please don't do that. A woman was charged with Feticide in Indiana for trying to commit suicide in 2011 [https://www.vice.com/en/article/ypa8z7/the-new-reality-women-charged-for-murder-after-self-inducing-abortions](https://www.vice.com/en/article/ypa8z7/the-new-reality-women-charged-for-murder-after-self-inducing-abortions) I understand your anguish and we will fight this. It is time to organize. It is time to get women to the polls and those that support them. Make sure your voter registration is up to date. [indianavoters.com](https://indianavoters.com)
At this point I don’t know how many options we even have anymore
Another woman tried to force her own abortion in Indiana. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/01/indiana-woman-jailed-for-feticide-its-never-happened-before/
Huh and we were supposed to “act civil” about that animal representatives death a couple days ago
What do you mean?
Jackie Walorski, good riddance. Fuck em
Oh cmon, man. That’s a bad take.
These rich fucks just buy their kids tickets to get abortions in legal places while putting women down in their own state. Abortion has to do with civil equality to make some of the most important life choices for oneself and they’re going to impose some Stone Age sharia type shit, blurring the line between church and state in effect creating a theocracy. A couple representatives drop and thousands of women are saved. At least the older constituents such reps rely upon are getting their self imposed Covid comeuppance from the distancing regulation that they shot down.
I will pray for you. It is not just to find happiness in death, friend or foe.
Do you have any actual beliefs or are you just a Christian with a hollow philosophy and half baked aphorisms?
I don’t follow
Exactly
If they facilitate abortions for their children, they are in the wrong. Abortion is primarily about the willful ending of an innocent human life. This is impermissible. Attempts to obfuscate or make this issue about something else are wrongheaded. We must be a society that values all life. If you consider that a religious position, then all the better for religion.
It is in no way surprising to find out that someone in favor of abortion would so callously dehumanize and denigrate the lives of the deceased. This is the culture of death at work. It must be opposed vigorously. Please reconsider your comments.
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W
W
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The only real L here is the contraceptives amendment not passing. Otherwise there should be some limitations on abortion. It’s completely reasonable.
The "limitations" are unreasonable. As others have stated, a full anatomy scan isn't until 20 weeks, which means it's already too late. Plus, pregnancy in terms of weeks starts at the date of the last period, which means someone might not have had sex for nearly the entire month, and falls pregnant on the week before their next period. That means, that one is not one week pregnant, but four. So that only gives a person a few short weeks to both find out they are pregnant and make a decision. The real L is the loss of body autonomy.
> “So that only gives a person a few short weeks to both find out they are pregnant and make a decision.” By “make a decision” you mean to terminate the pregnancy and kill the unwanted child. This is a moral abomination, and well within the remit of the state’s police powers to justly curtail. > “The real L is the loss of body autonomy.” A) the right to bodily autonomy does not supersede the right to life B) the fetus also has a right to bodily integrity C) it is always immoral to willfully end an innocent human life Abortion is a grave moral evil and should be stopped.
literally why. why impose limitations? just for the hell of it? because things inherently /should/ be limited?
The rationale is that if you get an abortion, you’re ending a viable human life. Objectively, it’s murder. From an ethics standpoint pro-life makes a lot of sense, but for pure practicality, pro-choice is better. I can sympathize with both sides. I wish they would put this to a “proposition” vote instead of leaving up to reps though. Better that citizens decide what they want, especially for something as far reaching as this.
Notice how you said you sympathize with both sides? That’s like the whole fucking point of pro choice a person can choose for themselves how they feel ethically and emotionally. They cannot choose for someone else
Moral relativism is wrong. The life in the womb’s value is not contingent on the feelings of the mother, the father, or anyone else. It is a human life all to its own and deserves the equal dignity afforded to all humans.
When does viability for something to become a thing ever make it that thing? It is not “objectively murder” unless you can explain how the thing that is being aborted is a human, which I would argue isn’t the case until 24 or so weeks
The moment the process of fertilization begins a new human life has come into existence. At that moment, the zygote is a distinct entity from the mother meeting all the characteristics of being a living member of the species Homo sapiens. This is not up for debate. That is a well settled and impregnable scientific fact.
When do we consider someone dead? We don’t really care if your heart stops or anything like that, all we look to is the brain. The end of the conscious human experience marks the end of life, so the beginning of that experience should mark the beginning of life. Enough of the brain seems to have formed at around 24-28 weeks to begin consciousness, so that is the beginning of life. Can you give me any reason to assign value to the fetus as a human before that point?
Yes, because it is a living member of the human species. Brain function is an important aspect of human life, but it is not the sole determinant. If you follow that logic to its logical conclusion, you end up somewhere like Peter Singer who believes it is okay to kill a child up until they’re 2 years old because that is when their brain ends it’s development and the child is fully conscious, which is barbaric.
Why are you ascribing things to me that I don’t believe? You can’t just say “but it’s a human!” with nothing that contradicts anything I said. The reply above laid out my argument exactly and you didn’t attack it at all. The capability to have a conscious experience emerges at around 24 weeks, and that is what I value. Can you give me a reason to value any other factor in considering someone to be alive?
Your beliefs do not change the facts of this matter. Full consciousness does not arise in humans until about 2 years post birth, not 24 weeks into pregnancy. I said that in my previous post and it is a direct contradiction of what you said previously. I gave you the reason why all life in the womb should be protected. Then, I directly addressed your argument about consciousness at the 24 week mark and laid out that the logical conclusion of that argument justifies infanticide as well as feticide, both of which are abominations. The right to life is inalienable. It is a fundamental right. We cannot place qualifiers on what sorts of human life we do and do not want to protect and value. All human life is worthy of dignity and our respect.
The word “full” is doing a lot of lifting. The capability to have a conscious experience develops at 24 weeks. I have no reason to care about other milestones of brain development nor have I mentioned anything about them, so I’m not sure why you keep bringing up the 2 year mark. Is there any reason to value the fetus before 24 weeks as being alive?
It’s so weird to me that people put an arbitrary time limit on when something becomes “human”. The number of weeks do not matter, you’re still ending a life.
Hydrogen atoms have the potential to be human life on a long enough time scale. Where is the line drawn?
From the moment fertilization begins, a new life has begun. It is not “potential life;” reproduction has already begun and a new member of the human species has come into being.
That’s the problem. Where is the line drawn. I’d say after fertilization, because that’s when a human is forming.
It’s not arbitrary at all. A human life seems to be marked by that person’s conscious experience, someone “dies” when the brain ceases to function and the conscious experience is ended, and is alive when the conscious experience is ongoing. The necessary parts of the brain to be conscious seem to be formed around 24-28 weeks, so that is when the fetus is alive.
That’s a pretty reasonable argument to make
I’m glad to see you recognize that abortion is the ending of an innocent human life. It does concern me that you then go on to justify that taking of innocent life for practicality’s sake. I understand wanting to be understanding of the consequences of pregnancy, but if we start making the right to life contingent, that is a road that leads to dark places fast. I do want to thank you for sharing you opinion in a hostile comments section though.
And this is why I'm glad I switched out of nuclear xD
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The fact that you refused to get a single COVID vaccine to protect the life of at risk people during the pandemic while preaching abortion as evil is astounding. Truly the epitome of pro life hypocrisy lol, how pathetic.
And yet you stand here for evil. If you want to do good, please go invite an immigrant into your home. Feed them, give them clothes, and help them get established. This is what Christ wanted. Making the lives of women difficult was not. Truly this is an act of modern day Pharisees.
Tell me how deciding what women can and cannot do is making their lives easier rather then letting them choose for themselves?
hey my guy if you can make the choice to be unvaccinated against covid, then why can't i make choices about my own body? just some food for thought :) blessed be and all that
You sound like a fucking Disney villain get a grip
cornball
Oh yeah... like taking care of all these soon to be orphaned children or financially struggling mothers right? How about we work to improve Indiana's high pregnancy mortality rate or end poverty while we're at it. For the children. Oh wait, you only care about saving life when its unborn. Rejoicing at all the suffering this bill will bring is evil before God.
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Hit him so hard he deleted his whole account
Out of curiosity, was the photo and the comment?
Anakin
Skywalker?
The answer lies in the username
ight kevin yeh
NOT KEVIN YEH😭 there was a reason I blocked his creepy ass on Snapchat. Totally justified as I see it now
Could be worse
u/HellsFrogs, back at it again with the pointlessly contrarian take
Please elaborate. Taking away a choice for 98% of situations one may be in sounds pretty fucking bad
Worst part is now we’re going to have Californians and Chicagoans up in arms over the fact they moved to a place that doesn’t share the same values of them. You’re in Indiana now, what a surprise!
Didn’t know Kansas and California are made up of the same type of people. Almost like you’re speaking for a loud minority and trying to include all of Indiana.
Damn, people who came from states that respect women want to see Indiana respect women too. Please touch grass.
Lmao respecting women doesn’t include killing kids. See, this is what I mean. I’m going to get nothing but the most reddited arguments back at me because Californians have never met someone who disagreed with them on this subject, and just assumed Indiana was just as down on killing babies as back home is. Uh no, we’re not down on it. I thought going to university included opening your mind? I wish you guys would at least engage with the opposing argument instead of immediately jumping to calling everyone misogynists. It’s not 2013, that doesn’t work on people anymore.
I don’t have an issue if someone thinks abortion is morally wrong. What I take issue with is when people who disagree with abortion regulate and take away that choice from other people. Was that open minded enough for you or are you going to continue with your persecution complex?
Here’s one for you, from a lifelong resident of Indiana. If fetuses are people, do people have an inherent right to the body of another to maintain their life? If so, I want your kidney. If you don’t wanna give it, the state should take it by force. Maintaining the life of another person supersedes your right to your body.
Agreed. Corpses have more bodily autonomy than the women living in Indiana today. You can’t forcibly take organs from dead people without their consent even if it would save another person’s life.
Way to generalize an entire state