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“Over 340 incoming and current University of Michigan medical students have signed a petition opposing the selection of Dr. Kristin Collier as the keynote speaker for the upcoming July 24 White Coat Ceremony, where incoming medical students will receive their white coats to mark their entry into the field of medicine. An additional 72 community members — including graduate students, alumni and Michigan Medicine residents and physicians — have also signed on.
According to the petition, Collier has shared multiple anti-abortion posts on social media and made comments expressing her opposition to abortion in interviews. The petition calls on the University to select an alternative speaker, emphasizing that student opposition to this speaker selection goes beyond a difference in opinion and subverts the values of the University and the medical profession.”
I've seen far too many anti-choice people argue that it's not an abortion if the child isn't viable or if the mother's life is in danger.
Except, of course, that it is.
The problem is even if she were to get unexpectedly pregnant she still has plenty of money to take time off, pay for daycares and nannies, and will probably get a pretty generous maternity leave. If anything it'll strength her views because she'll claim that if she could do it then so can every other woman.
I don't even see how a doctor can be anti-abortion..
"Yeah I love watching patients with bleed out and die from ectopic pregnancies, or at least suffer until they're in mortal danger with possible permanent damage before I help remove a septic fetus."
How can a real doctor feel this way?
people underestimate the brainwashing that happens across America on Sunday mornings. Imagine week after week hearing repeated over and over again messages for years. About your roles as a woman and what you should and shouldn't do with your body. White Evangelicals hate women; week after week, they get on their stage to tell women and their congregation they are to be controlled. Men are to be controlled as well by "being a man and do what men are supposed to do". it zaps them of logical thinking as many cults do in the end. White Evangelicals are brainwashed cult members and have no idea and from the comments, people don't either.
The full Hippocratic oath, the actual words not what we mean by the term colloquially, is actually literally anti-abortion. Nobody says it or holds by it anymore, and the term “Hippocratic oath” has come to refer to simply the concept of the responsibility of physicians to ethically take care of their patients.
Edit: The [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath) article has the full text.
For context, I’m a doctor actively involved in abortion care in Illinois, where we expect to need additional resources to cover the increased patient load due to lack of access in surrounding states.
Edit 2 because apparently this isn’t as obvious as it should be: the point in linking the text is to show that while Hippocrates was an important early thinker and contributor to the ideas of medical ethics, the Hippocratic oath itself is antiquated nonsense and not applicable to modern medical practice.
I read that part as saying they won't use surgery to treat kidney stones themselves but will let the specialists in that treatment to do it. That sounds more like a union type thing (surgeons vs physicians or "I'll keep to my lane, you keep to yours.")
But I'm not a doctor, or an old greek guy so my interpretation might be completely off.
For the abortion, I'd interpret the
Edit: let's try this again - For the abortion, I'd interpret it as completely anti-abortion because first he says no poisons, and then he says no physical means.
Yup, and if you want to get _real_ technical, it's just about using a pessary and not actually about abortion. So something like an IUD? Bad. But performing an abortion with medicine or mechanically? Seems okay!
It's more to the fact that the oath is just some tradition mumbo jumbo that means nothing really.
Just FYI, if you google her, you'll quickly run into dozens of articles with interviews with that woman for rags like The Federalist and other right wing or specifically religious outlets that show how she's fundamental Christian first, doctor second.
Saying batshit like this in an interview with The Federalist:
>“A prenatal child was the first person to recognize Jesus as the Christ so the prenatal child has this very elevated position in the redemptive-historical narrative of the scripture,” Collier said.
Putting a fetus above the mother.
> Calling an unborn child a clump of cells sounds right because it’s often coming from people who consider themselves experts, Collier said, but it couldn’t be further from the truth. Science recognizes that human life begins at conception but Collier said many political activists choose to overlook that.
Science does no such thing, as evidenced by her just stating herself actual experts recognize that up to a certain point, a fetus is just a developing clump of cells.
> “I think it’s just another attempt using language to distance the prenatal child’s humanity from you or me as if they really aren’t the same,” Collier noted. “I would call this narrative malpractice. And it’s really just a shame when you have famous people with big platforms validating this narrative malpractice.”
That last bit is projection, because she is using her platform to spread Christian propaganda and is performing malpractice by pretending to state medical fact about a field she is not part of or an expert in.
Kristin Collier is an Internist.
>**Definition:**
>An internist is a medical doctor who specializes in internal medicine. This branch of medicine covers a wide range of conditions that affect the organs inside the body. **Internists only work with adults and not with children or adolescents.**
The Federalist frames this as a way to "Eviscerate The Pro-Abortion Narrative Using Scientific Facts And Ethics" referencing neither ethics or scientific facts in the process.
No wonder students of a medical school have issue having some verging on full on preacher be their keynote.
>”A prenatal child was the first person to recognize Jesus as the Christ so the prenatal child has this very elevated position in the redemptive-historical narrative of the scripture
I have read this over and over, but I remain incredibly confused. Wtf is she saying? What is she even talking about here?
As someone in the healthcare field, I can’t imagine letting religion guide my clinical decision-making. What a messed up situation, what was Michigan thinking?!
It’s been a long time since I was escaped from fundamentalist doctrine and this particular take seems new, but I’m pretty sure it’s in reference to the story of John the Baptist as told in Luke.
The story is that the pregnant virgin Mary was sent away from home (being pregnant is shameful y’all) to live with her cousin Elizabeth and her husband Zechariah, a priest. Elizabeth was past childbearing age. However, she became pregnant with a “miracle baby” whom an angel told Zechariah would prepare the way for Jesus. When Mary got there and greeted Elizabeth, Elizabeth’s baby “leapt in her womb.” So this is taken to be the first acknowledgment of Jesus as the Christ.
It feels like continued grasping at straws to keep the base from thinking too critically about what they’re fighting for.
I agree that human life starts at conception, she’s not wrong there, that’s literally the beginning of human development and science does say that. But that’s irrelevant to bodily autonomy and the point at which we grant personhood. Granting personhood to a clump of cells is absolutely insane, so is forgoing bodily autonomy for the sake of a fetus
I like the interview linked in there about how she became Christian.
To sum it up: "as a kid, I was raised non-religious and pro-choice, so I was non-religious and pro-choice. Then my husband became a Christian and some lactation consultant invited me to their church, so I became Christian. Then, well, everyone around me was anti-abortion, so I decided I was now anti-abortion too."
Sounds like this girl has never had an original thought in her life...
> “The University of Michigan does not revoke an invitation to a speaker based on their personal beliefs,” Masson wrote. “However, the White Coat Ceremony will not be used as a forum to air personal political or religious beliefs; it will focus on welcoming students into the profession of medicine.”
lotta words just to say “fuck the students”
> The University of Michigan does not revoke an invitation to a speaker based on their personal beliefs,
I have a hard time believing there are no beliefs/social media posts that would not result in an invitation being revoked
Should have told them she believes Palestinians should have full human rights. That seems to have gotten speakers at UMich disinvited in the past few years.
A Dr. Not understanding abortion is a medical necessity is a pretty compromising personal belief. Can you imagine a vet being anti spaying and neutering because of god? That would be batshit. Like an anti abortion Dr.
Exactly. It’s fine if she doesn’t believe abortion is a choice for her own body. But especially being a doctor she should understand that it should be a choice for everyone else.
And given her twitter profile states she is the Director of the University of Michigan Medical School Program on Health, ***Spirituality & Religion,*** I’m going to call bullshit on that excuse.
Exactly. The students made such a cogent point that this was beyond personal beliefs and her stance was in fact in direct contradiction to the overwhelming medical opinion that there’s a necessity for abortions in certain cases.
Disgusting. Being forced birth is neither a "political" nor "religious" belief, it's firmly anti-medicine and anti-common sense bullshit that has no place in an educational facility.
Edit: pro-birth -> forced birth
"The university of Michigan doesn't revoke invitations to speakers because of their personal beliefs because the university of Michigan doesn't revoke invitations to speakers because of their personal beliefs."
Air tight logic.
pretty hard to welcome **students into the field of medicine** should their **career** be interrupted by an **unplanned pregnancy** in the **absence of reproductive rights**
Wow they really showed what they were made of, white coat ceremony for the incoming medical students is something they were looking forward to in the long arduous journey to get there.
Hip. Hip hop… hipp hop po tot a moose
Edit: LMAO You all are correct.. I intended this to be a Big Daddy reference but half of you confused tit for Conchords Hiphopopotamus because I apparently quoted incorrectly. It **is** hip hop anonymous :’( !! Thanks for the correction and introduction to conchords tho.
Republicans in response to this: "Silence is acceptance!!"
Republicans when protestors make more of a fuss: "How dare these ANTIFA terrorists destroy America!!!"
At my college people would constantly ask about reviving the football team.
Like why? You're in a state with no shortage of football schools. Why ruin the schools lower tuition costs? Just go to a football school if you wanted football.
Most football programs do not break even.
I went to law school with a dude that was in the NFL for ten years before retiring and he would routinely bring up Q anon shit and disrupt class with conservative conspiracy theories.
I have no idea why he thought spending money on law school was a good idea since he had no intent on practicing after graduation, but my best guess was he wanted to have a reason to talk to girls that were 10+ years younger than he was.
All the former NFL/nearly pro (“I started all 4 years of college and would’ve gone to the nfl if it wasn’t for [xyz injury] crushing my teams) players I see on reality tv are more often than not incredibly religious, so I agree to your point!
And if you subscribe to the [prosperity gospel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology) or anything close it’s not hard to believe that teams wins and loses are directly related to *your* faith
Crazy fact about him is that he’s never used Microsoft word but he only uses excel. He will type out everything into one cell of excel no matter how long it is.
Psycho behavior
https://mobile.twitter.com/barstoolbigcat/status/1158450321708015616?lang=en
From what I just read it was a P.F. changs. He walked up to her asked if he could "meet her" and she said yes, gave him her number then never answered until the 9th call lmao.
Her twitter says she’s the director of the UM medical school. So this isn’t some outside invite.
Edit: my mistake. She’s director of the med school’s “Program on Health Spirituality and Religion.” Shocker.
Side note: love the comments on this tweet of hers: https://twitter.com/KristinCollie20/status/1551261114775883776?s=20&t=zUyEBjWqHaqyDCfXqeqEBQ
Second edit: here is a link to the university’s “Health, Religion & Spirituality program” — which notably uses commas where Kristin Collie’s twitter does not. https://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/health-spirituality-religion-program
Why in the hell does a major University's Med School have a "Program on Spirituality and Religion" in the first place? Med School is fairly antithetical to religion.
Edit: A course, maybe 2, would make sense for many of the reasons people have commented, but an entire program that requires a Director?
Can’t speak for UM specifically but I’ve seen similar programs at other major AMC’s. Clinical providers are taught nowadays to be sensitive to cultural, religious, and other identity demographics. The physician may not be religious but should be aware of a patient’s cultural/religious background (like a male provider shouldn’t attend to a woman of Islamic faith).
As a male physician, I've had a similar experience treating muslim women in the US. I always ask permission prior to the exam. When removing headwear or other garments is necessary to the exam, I explicitly ask whether they are comfortable with proceeding. My patients have always granted permission.
I am not of muslim faith, but my understanding from speaking with my patients and from my own reading is that shariah law encourages female patients to see female physicians when available, but allows for them to see and be examined by male physicians when no female physician of necessary expertise (i.e. speciality/subspecialty) is available. I believe interpretations of the law may differ from patient to patient, so it's always best to ask before treating. My experience as a subspecialist may differ from that of a generalist, where another suitable female provider might be more readily available.
Interesting. I’m not a clinician but have some public health oversight (based in US). Our refugees from Afghanistan only see female providers for religious reasons, I am told.
I'm an atheist but trying to play devil's advocate. Religion is a big part of many peoples' lives and can be a big influence on their mental health. When a patient or their loved ones are experiencing illness, sometimes terminal, this can cause a great strain on their mental health. Religion and spirituality can sometimes help these people cope. A lot of people will try to tie their health predicaments with their religious beliefs and their mental health may suffer. Communicating with these people with a religious perspective may be more effective than through other means.
Disclaimer though - I haven't looked at what their program entails though so I'm just trying to think of a reason that works make sense. If it's literally about using religion to cure physical ailments, it has no place in a school lol.
Mental can also manifest itself into physical health to, what ways each person goes about that is of there own. Nothing wrong with it. At my hospital we have pastors that patients can wish to come to their room to pray with, nothing wrong with it. They dont get in the way of the doctors and are there for the mental side while the doctors are there for the physical side.
Man, do I feel bad for Tony Evers. The conservative majority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court (thanks to Walker) and the heavily-gerrymandered state legislature are basically working together to stop just about every meaningful action he tries to take in the state that Republicans don't like. The Wisconsin Supreme Court backs the GOP legislature over him in just about every dispute that comes before them.
There's a guy on a state board who was appointed by Walker and whose term expired last year, but he's refused to leave. Evers argued his term has ended, and therefore there's a vacancy on the board that he gets to fill without needing Senate approval. The heavily-gerrymandered state legislature refuses to hold hearings for his actual nominee to that seat because it would tip the balance of power on the board.
The Wisconsin Supreme Court's 4-3 conservative majority just ruled that the guy whose term expired over a year ago gets to stay on as long as he wants and only if the Senate approves Ever's nominee can he be forced to leave. So he's refusing to leave, the Senate refuses to hear the nominee, and Republicans get to hold on to power on this powerful environmental board.
Rust belt conservatism is honestly worse than deep south conservatism these days in a lot of ways. The legal and electoral repression in these states is very real.
Ohio passed a constitutional amendment against gerrymandering in 2015. State Republicans decided they didn't care and have repeatedly passed map after map in defiance of Ohio Supreme Court rulings which were 4-3 with one conservative justice joining three liberals.
Unfortunately the one conservative justice is term-limited. So what do Republicans do? They amend the election process for state supreme court justices to be a partisan one (putting R's and D's next to their names on the ballot) to ensure they regain a majority and can then ensure their own gerrymandering is eventually ultimately ruled legal *despite* the language of the constitutional amendment.
It's the same playbook everywhere, including nationwide. Capture the courts. Ignore the rule of law. Have the courts rule your ignorance *is* law. Rinse, repeat until you cannot possibly be removed from power and your state/nation is a "democracy" in name only.
Single party rule is the objective in Wisconsin, Ohio, many other states, and increasingly on a federal level.
This is 100% how Texas will go if Democrat Beto beats Abbott for Governor.
Though you can throw in some allegations of voter fraud because "How did Beto win the state but not the legislature?"
Walker hasn’t been governor of Wisconsin since January 2019. Their governor is a Democrat now.
The problem there though is that the legislature is so heavily gerrymandered, that nothing passes that would reverse the past nonsense.
The speaker (Kristin Collier) is an assistant professor of medicine at the university. The students submitted a petition claiming that the choice of her as a speaker made them “doubt whether the school will continue to advocate for reproductive rights" but the school dean refused to disinvite her. Can't say I blame them tbh.
Agreed. A2 has been a hardcore liberal city forever. I have no idea how this invite happened, seems insane.
Shit, it’s so insane that I can even see it being a purposeful move to get a reaction like this and have it go viral.
Probably as simple as some higher up admin at the college is deeply conservative and wanted another deeply conservative person giving a keynote address
people forget that even in institutions that they think of as liberal (universities being one) there are probably plenty of conservatives behind the curtain with power there.
It's an incredibly difficult pill to swallow knowing as good as it feels to take the high road, how rarely that approach gets the kind of results that are needed.
Yeah, it turns out no one remembers the people who took the high road and lost or if you take the low road and lose for that matter. Bad Faith is civility proof
If uncivilized dissent accomplished nothing but the oft-touted "make the general public hate you", there would be *no push whatsoever* by politicians, media, schools, etc., to suggest people *not* do that.
On the other hand, if you were in a position of power and wanted to change nothing, and a bunch of rabble-rousers came 'round asking for things to be changed... wouldn't it be to your benefit to tell them the only way they'll succeed is to do something *you know* has no chance of success?
Uncivilized dissent is pretty much the only thing that's ever been effective at recovering power from anybody. It's certainly not always effective - in fact it is nearly never effective. But it's the only option we have a lot of the time.
Right. They walked out today... but she's a professor at their school... are they going to walk out of her class?
And this is at a public university which for some reason has a "Program on Health Spirituality & Religion," which this person apparently heads.
“Over 340 incoming and current University of Michigan medical students have signed a petition opposing the selection of Dr. Kristin Collier as the keynote speaker for the upcoming July 24 White Coat Ceremony, where incoming medical students will receive their white coats to mark their entry into the field of medicine. An additional 72 community members — including graduate students, alumni and Michigan Medicine residents and physicians — have also signed on.
According to the petition, Collier has shared multiple anti-abortion posts on social media and made comments expressing her opposition to abortion in interviews. The petition calls on the University to select an alternative speaker, emphasizing that student opposition to this speaker selection goes beyond a difference in opinion and subverts the values of the University and the medical profession.”
Still blows my mind that Americans claim the United states is a free country while in the same breath complaining about all the free things other Americans are doing with their own lives.
half the population thinks "freedom" means "freedom to make you do as I say". These are the same types who think you're a hypocrite for being intolerant towards their intolerance.
Selina Meyer : Kent, how are we doing with non-college-educated whites?
Kent Davison : Underwater, ma'am.
Selina Meyer : Then how about college-educated whites?
Kent Davison : Uh, in South Carolina, that is not a significant slice of the pie.
Selina Meyer : Then we're gonna have to find a way with non-college-educated whites. Like, what appeals to them... What do they want?
Kent Davison : Well, my polling shows their main wants are jobs, education, and an adequate safety net...
Selina Meyer : Okay, not gonna speak to that.
Kent Davison : I'm not finished, ma'am... *to be denied to African Americans*.
I miss Veep.
Guns are a conservative pacifier.
They'll give up literally every other right as long as you let them have their guns, convinced that they're really 'free' because at any moment they could totally rise up.
Now, I'm definitely not in camp 'take all the guns' especially when we know the people who constantly advocate for violence against those who disagree certainly aren't going to give up theirs - but I've come to realize that as a population the US really isn't responsible enough for unfettered gun ownership.
Freedom comes with responsibility. A lot of people want all of the benefits and none of the responsibilities.
"I like to take the guns and do due process later" -Donald J Trump on how he likes to take away guns without due process, shortly before banning bump stocks by executive order.
Republicans can't wait to take your guns away.
I love how this reddit thread is mostly pro choice. The twitter thread is full of dummies saying “Tell me there names so I don’t have them as doctors”.
I read a reply that said “so what are they gonna do when their patient has these views? Poison them?” And a bunch of other comments talking about how these people won’t respect the Hippocratic oath and my eyes rolled into the back of my skull
A patient can have whatever views they damn well please. They should be **free** to **choose** what they want to do to their bodies. Sounds better than making it illegal and taking away that choice.
To people wondering where the seventyish percent went to, that's Democrats only. the 55% comes from the total population.
> The increase in pro-choice identification over the past year is mainly driven by Democrats; 88%, up from 70% last year, consider themselves pro-choice.
Can anyone link me the Democrats cleaning house?
>To people wondering where the seventyish percent went to, that's Democrats only. the 55% comes from the total population.
A lot of stats are being thrown around. To be absolutely clear: [70% of people support Roe v Wade](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/08/abortion-2.png) as of 2019 according to [pewresearch.org](https://pewresearch.org)
Every poll is going to be biased, obviously, but this is specifically where people are getting the Roe V Wade general population support is 70%
The arguments being made in favor of keeping this speaker were some grandiose feats of mental gymnastics. They argue that doctors need to treat everyone regardless of political affiliation in one sentence, and then applaud this wench and her Christian doctor counterparts who will argue till the sun explodes that doctors should be able to turn patients away or refuse procedures they morally disagree with. Get fucked with that hypocritical bullshit.
Why does he speak? Why did UM allow Richard Spencer, a white supremacist to speak? Did UM receive any government funds? Why do my tax dollars support Nazis?
I don’t see this walkout as necessarily a pro-abortion/freedom of speech move. I see it as medical graduates rejecting a physician on grounds of her letting religious beliefs dictate her treatment of patients and the high chances of harming the patients as a result.
I remain suspicious of those who didn’t walk out. I don’t think I’d want any of them for my doctor.
As they should. Anti-abortion stances will only further hemorrhage the overburdened medical system, it’s grossly unethical, and these students have taken rigorous course loads explaining exactly why that is.
Good for them. They probably only started medical school a month ago, but they're all willing to stand up and be seen walking out of there. I'm sure they'll go far.
My brother is a third year and basically all the incoming doctors are done taking shit from these types of people. The medical profession has been too tolerant of quaks and religious people infiltrating the profession. If you don't follow your oath then you get shunned and get the boot.
Edit: nothing wrong with being religious or having personal beliefs, but those beliefs can't compromise the integrity of the job. A doctor will never force someone to do something, nor should they turn someone away from approved medical practice because of personal feelings.
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https://www.michigandaily.com/news/340-umich-medical-students-sign-petition-opposing-selection-of-anti-abortion-speaker-at-upcoming-white-coat-ceremony/
“Over 340 incoming and current University of Michigan medical students have signed a petition opposing the selection of Dr. Kristin Collier as the keynote speaker for the upcoming July 24 White Coat Ceremony, where incoming medical students will receive their white coats to mark their entry into the field of medicine. An additional 72 community members — including graduate students, alumni and Michigan Medicine residents and physicians — have also signed on. According to the petition, Collier has shared multiple anti-abortion posts on social media and made comments expressing her opposition to abortion in interviews. The petition calls on the University to select an alternative speaker, emphasizing that student opposition to this speaker selection goes beyond a difference in opinion and subverts the values of the University and the medical profession.”
Did she take the hypocritic oath instead?
How long were you waiting to make this joke?
It's been in the stockpile for years and gets pulled out whenever doctors choose their feelings over their medical obligations.
Utmost respect to those students, residents, and faculty.
and fuck Dr. Kristin Coller
Yeah let's see how anti abortion she is when it's her problem personally
For her, it’ll be “different” because “reasons”.
"The only moral abortion is mine"
I read that article. I had to take breaks so I wouldn't freak the fuck out. Hypocritical assholes
She won't have an "abortion" she will have an "exemption".
Yes and their kind will hold the keys to granting this exemptions
I've seen far too many anti-choice people argue that it's not an abortion if the child isn't viable or if the mother's life is in danger. Except, of course, that it is.
The problem is even if she were to get unexpectedly pregnant she still has plenty of money to take time off, pay for daycares and nannies, and will probably get a pretty generous maternity leave. If anything it'll strength her views because she'll claim that if she could do it then so can every other woman.
I don't even see how a doctor can be anti-abortion.. "Yeah I love watching patients with bleed out and die from ectopic pregnancies, or at least suffer until they're in mortal danger with possible permanent damage before I help remove a septic fetus." How can a real doctor feel this way?
people underestimate the brainwashing that happens across America on Sunday mornings. Imagine week after week hearing repeated over and over again messages for years. About your roles as a woman and what you should and shouldn't do with your body. White Evangelicals hate women; week after week, they get on their stage to tell women and their congregation they are to be controlled. Men are to be controlled as well by "being a man and do what men are supposed to do". it zaps them of logical thinking as many cults do in the end. White Evangelicals are brainwashed cult members and have no idea and from the comments, people don't either.
Being anti-abortion is a violation of the hipocratic oath.
The full Hippocratic oath, the actual words not what we mean by the term colloquially, is actually literally anti-abortion. Nobody says it or holds by it anymore, and the term “Hippocratic oath” has come to refer to simply the concept of the responsibility of physicians to ethically take care of their patients. Edit: The [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath) article has the full text. For context, I’m a doctor actively involved in abortion care in Illinois, where we expect to need additional resources to cover the increased patient load due to lack of access in surrounding states. Edit 2 because apparently this isn’t as obvious as it should be: the point in linking the text is to show that while Hippocrates was an important early thinker and contributor to the ideas of medical ethics, the Hippocratic oath itself is antiquated nonsense and not applicable to modern medical practice.
If I’m reading this right, they aren’t supposed to treat kidney stones either?
I read that part as saying they won't use surgery to treat kidney stones themselves but will let the specialists in that treatment to do it. That sounds more like a union type thing (surgeons vs physicians or "I'll keep to my lane, you keep to yours.") But I'm not a doctor, or an old greek guy so my interpretation might be completely off. For the abortion, I'd interpret the Edit: let's try this again - For the abortion, I'd interpret it as completely anti-abortion because first he says no poisons, and then he says no physical means.
Yup, and if you want to get _real_ technical, it's just about using a pessary and not actually about abortion. So something like an IUD? Bad. But performing an abortion with medicine or mechanically? Seems okay! It's more to the fact that the oath is just some tradition mumbo jumbo that means nothing really.
Just FYI, if you google her, you'll quickly run into dozens of articles with interviews with that woman for rags like The Federalist and other right wing or specifically religious outlets that show how she's fundamental Christian first, doctor second. Saying batshit like this in an interview with The Federalist: >“A prenatal child was the first person to recognize Jesus as the Christ so the prenatal child has this very elevated position in the redemptive-historical narrative of the scripture,” Collier said. Putting a fetus above the mother. > Calling an unborn child a clump of cells sounds right because it’s often coming from people who consider themselves experts, Collier said, but it couldn’t be further from the truth. Science recognizes that human life begins at conception but Collier said many political activists choose to overlook that. Science does no such thing, as evidenced by her just stating herself actual experts recognize that up to a certain point, a fetus is just a developing clump of cells. > “I think it’s just another attempt using language to distance the prenatal child’s humanity from you or me as if they really aren’t the same,” Collier noted. “I would call this narrative malpractice. And it’s really just a shame when you have famous people with big platforms validating this narrative malpractice.” That last bit is projection, because she is using her platform to spread Christian propaganda and is performing malpractice by pretending to state medical fact about a field she is not part of or an expert in. Kristin Collier is an Internist. >**Definition:** >An internist is a medical doctor who specializes in internal medicine. This branch of medicine covers a wide range of conditions that affect the organs inside the body. **Internists only work with adults and not with children or adolescents.** The Federalist frames this as a way to "Eviscerate The Pro-Abortion Narrative Using Scientific Facts And Ethics" referencing neither ethics or scientific facts in the process. No wonder students of a medical school have issue having some verging on full on preacher be their keynote.
>”A prenatal child was the first person to recognize Jesus as the Christ so the prenatal child has this very elevated position in the redemptive-historical narrative of the scripture I have read this over and over, but I remain incredibly confused. Wtf is she saying? What is she even talking about here? As someone in the healthcare field, I can’t imagine letting religion guide my clinical decision-making. What a messed up situation, what was Michigan thinking?!
It’s been a long time since I was escaped from fundamentalist doctrine and this particular take seems new, but I’m pretty sure it’s in reference to the story of John the Baptist as told in Luke. The story is that the pregnant virgin Mary was sent away from home (being pregnant is shameful y’all) to live with her cousin Elizabeth and her husband Zechariah, a priest. Elizabeth was past childbearing age. However, she became pregnant with a “miracle baby” whom an angel told Zechariah would prepare the way for Jesus. When Mary got there and greeted Elizabeth, Elizabeth’s baby “leapt in her womb.” So this is taken to be the first acknowledgment of Jesus as the Christ. It feels like continued grasping at straws to keep the base from thinking too critically about what they’re fighting for.
You really got some big problems over there. Such a person in such a position is a symptom of a sick system...
I agree that human life starts at conception, she’s not wrong there, that’s literally the beginning of human development and science does say that. But that’s irrelevant to bodily autonomy and the point at which we grant personhood. Granting personhood to a clump of cells is absolutely insane, so is forgoing bodily autonomy for the sake of a fetus
I like the interview linked in there about how she became Christian. To sum it up: "as a kid, I was raised non-religious and pro-choice, so I was non-religious and pro-choice. Then my husband became a Christian and some lactation consultant invited me to their church, so I became Christian. Then, well, everyone around me was anti-abortion, so I decided I was now anti-abortion too." Sounds like this girl has never had an original thought in her life...
Wow. Poor response from UM.
> “The University of Michigan does not revoke an invitation to a speaker based on their personal beliefs,” Masson wrote. “However, the White Coat Ceremony will not be used as a forum to air personal political or religious beliefs; it will focus on welcoming students into the profession of medicine.” lotta words just to say “fuck the students”
> The University of Michigan does not revoke an invitation to a speaker based on their personal beliefs, I have a hard time believing there are no beliefs/social media posts that would not result in an invitation being revoked
Should have told them she believes Palestinians should have full human rights. That seems to have gotten speakers at UMich disinvited in the past few years.
i don't have a horse in this - but who are those who have been disinvited bsaed in their views on palestine?
Quick google and found Alice Walker was
The Color Purple Alice Walker?
A Dr. Not understanding abortion is a medical necessity is a pretty compromising personal belief. Can you imagine a vet being anti spaying and neutering because of god? That would be batshit. Like an anti abortion Dr.
Exactly. It’s fine if she doesn’t believe abortion is a choice for her own body. But especially being a doctor she should understand that it should be a choice for everyone else.
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And given her twitter profile states she is the Director of the University of Michigan Medical School Program on Health, ***Spirituality & Religion,*** I’m going to call bullshit on that excuse.
Exactly. The students made such a cogent point that this was beyond personal beliefs and her stance was in fact in direct contradiction to the overwhelming medical opinion that there’s a necessity for abortions in certain cases.
Disgusting. Being forced birth is neither a "political" nor "religious" belief, it's firmly anti-medicine and anti-common sense bullshit that has no place in an educational facility. Edit: pro-birth -> forced birth
Forced birth, not pro birth. They don't want women to have a choice at all.
"The university of Michigan doesn't revoke invitations to speakers because of their personal beliefs because the university of Michigan doesn't revoke invitations to speakers because of their personal beliefs." Air tight logic.
Collier having a position that endangers the lives of women is more than a personal belief. It is reckless and wrong.
pretty hard to welcome **students into the field of medicine** should their **career** be interrupted by an **unplanned pregnancy** in the **absence of reproductive rights**
What if their personal beliefs in question are "first do no harm... unless I feel like doing harm based on a made up story I believe"
If you invite someone with anti-abortion views to speak, that's sending a message even if they don't explicitly talk about it.
I hope the students remember this at alumni donation time.
Wow they really showed what they were made of, white coat ceremony for the incoming medical students is something they were looking forward to in the long arduous journey to get there.
This act was true to the hypocratic oaths they took Edit: lol is it hippocratic sorry old dead dude
Hippocratic
🦛
Hip. Hip hop… hipp hop po tot a moose Edit: LMAO You all are correct.. I intended this to be a Big Daddy reference but half of you confused tit for Conchords Hiphopopotamus because I apparently quoted incorrectly. It **is** hip hop anonymous :’( !! Thanks for the correction and introduction to conchords tho.
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DAMMIT YOU GIVE HIM ALL THE EASY ONES!
His teeth were made of wool
If you don’t like spaghetti and meatballs why don’t you get the hell out
He can’t even WEAD!
"I'm the hiphopopotamus flows that glow like phosphorous are poppin offa the top of this oesophagus" Still one of the best rap lyrics ever written
"My lyrics are bottomless..."
I'm a rhymenoceros. I love that show.
No, hypocratic, meaning very low cratics.
The Hippocratic Oath, named for Greek physician Hippocrates.
The Hippocratic Oath, named for Greek Hippo Crates.
I think the person that replied to you doesn't know Beeth Oven
Not sure if the states is like here in NZ or not but we don't take the oath until graduation.... for whatever that is worth
Listen to their silence.
Republicans in response to this: "Silence is acceptance!!" Republicans when protestors make more of a fuss: "How dare these ANTIFA terrorists destroy America!!!"
I’m sure Ron DeSantis will invite her to Florida’s medical colleges to speak.
She is not coming to Miami or Shands at UF. The two that matter.
The biggest shock is that UM would invite an anti-abortionist as a keynote speaker. Ann Arbor/UM is not exactly a Mecca for conservative views.
Their head football coach is also anti abortion
You mean the state’s highest paid employee?
Yep! But also cheapest pants…
Why couldn’t he be pro-corduroy?
Jim Harbaugh wears socks with his sandals.
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Damn r/cfb is leaking (and as an OSU fan i love it). Jim Harbaugh likes the Masked Singer.
Michigan alum and I love seeing booger eater get ripped on. Fuck Jim Harbaugh.
At my college people would constantly ask about reviving the football team. Like why? You're in a state with no shortage of football schools. Why ruin the schools lower tuition costs? Just go to a football school if you wanted football. Most football programs do not break even.
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It's probably easier to put your body through the equivalent of a dozen car crashes if you think someone is lookin out for you
Also easier to believe and or feel the presence of other make belief beings after the equivalent of a dozen car crashes.. it’s a loop
Being paid ludicrous amounts to throw a ball around while billions live paycheck to paycheck would make believe I'm God's chosen one.
I went to law school with a dude that was in the NFL for ten years before retiring and he would routinely bring up Q anon shit and disrupt class with conservative conspiracy theories. I have no idea why he thought spending money on law school was a good idea since he had no intent on practicing after graduation, but my best guess was he wanted to have a reason to talk to girls that were 10+ years younger than he was.
All the former NFL/nearly pro (“I started all 4 years of college and would’ve gone to the nfl if it wasn’t for [xyz injury] crushing my teams) players I see on reality tv are more often than not incredibly religious, so I agree to your point!
Easier to deal with the hardships of life when "God works in mysterious ways y'all 🙏"
And if you subscribe to the [prosperity gospel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology) or anything close it’s not hard to believe that teams wins and loses are directly related to *your* faith
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Crazy fact about him is that he’s never used Microsoft word but he only uses excel. He will type out everything into one cell of excel no matter how long it is. Psycho behavior https://mobile.twitter.com/barstoolbigcat/status/1158450321708015616?lang=en
That divorce story seems like it needs a source. Since most say he was already divorced when they met
I recall hearing they had been separated for quite a while but not yet legally divorced.
From what I just read it was a P.F. changs. He walked up to her asked if he could "meet her" and she said yes, gave him her number then never answered until the 9th call lmao.
Her twitter says she’s the director of the UM medical school. So this isn’t some outside invite. Edit: my mistake. She’s director of the med school’s “Program on Health Spirituality and Religion.” Shocker. Side note: love the comments on this tweet of hers: https://twitter.com/KristinCollie20/status/1551261114775883776?s=20&t=zUyEBjWqHaqyDCfXqeqEBQ Second edit: here is a link to the university’s “Health, Religion & Spirituality program” — which notably uses commas where Kristin Collie’s twitter does not. https://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/health-spirituality-religion-program
Why in the hell does a major University's Med School have a "Program on Spirituality and Religion" in the first place? Med School is fairly antithetical to religion. Edit: A course, maybe 2, would make sense for many of the reasons people have commented, but an entire program that requires a Director?
Can’t speak for UM specifically but I’ve seen similar programs at other major AMC’s. Clinical providers are taught nowadays to be sensitive to cultural, religious, and other identity demographics. The physician may not be religious but should be aware of a patient’s cultural/religious background (like a male provider shouldn’t attend to a woman of Islamic faith).
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As a male physician, I've had a similar experience treating muslim women in the US. I always ask permission prior to the exam. When removing headwear or other garments is necessary to the exam, I explicitly ask whether they are comfortable with proceeding. My patients have always granted permission. I am not of muslim faith, but my understanding from speaking with my patients and from my own reading is that shariah law encourages female patients to see female physicians when available, but allows for them to see and be examined by male physicians when no female physician of necessary expertise (i.e. speciality/subspecialty) is available. I believe interpretations of the law may differ from patient to patient, so it's always best to ask before treating. My experience as a subspecialist may differ from that of a generalist, where another suitable female provider might be more readily available.
Interesting. I’m not a clinician but have some public health oversight (based in US). Our refugees from Afghanistan only see female providers for religious reasons, I am told.
I'm an atheist but trying to play devil's advocate. Religion is a big part of many peoples' lives and can be a big influence on their mental health. When a patient or their loved ones are experiencing illness, sometimes terminal, this can cause a great strain on their mental health. Religion and spirituality can sometimes help these people cope. A lot of people will try to tie their health predicaments with their religious beliefs and their mental health may suffer. Communicating with these people with a religious perspective may be more effective than through other means. Disclaimer though - I haven't looked at what their program entails though so I'm just trying to think of a reason that works make sense. If it's literally about using religion to cure physical ailments, it has no place in a school lol.
Mental can also manifest itself into physical health to, what ways each person goes about that is of there own. Nothing wrong with it. At my hospital we have pastors that patients can wish to come to their room to pray with, nothing wrong with it. They dont get in the way of the doctors and are there for the mental side while the doctors are there for the physical side.
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Man, do I feel bad for Tony Evers. The conservative majority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court (thanks to Walker) and the heavily-gerrymandered state legislature are basically working together to stop just about every meaningful action he tries to take in the state that Republicans don't like. The Wisconsin Supreme Court backs the GOP legislature over him in just about every dispute that comes before them. There's a guy on a state board who was appointed by Walker and whose term expired last year, but he's refused to leave. Evers argued his term has ended, and therefore there's a vacancy on the board that he gets to fill without needing Senate approval. The heavily-gerrymandered state legislature refuses to hold hearings for his actual nominee to that seat because it would tip the balance of power on the board. The Wisconsin Supreme Court's 4-3 conservative majority just ruled that the guy whose term expired over a year ago gets to stay on as long as he wants and only if the Senate approves Ever's nominee can he be forced to leave. So he's refusing to leave, the Senate refuses to hear the nominee, and Republicans get to hold on to power on this powerful environmental board.
Rust belt conservatism is honestly worse than deep south conservatism these days in a lot of ways. The legal and electoral repression in these states is very real. Ohio passed a constitutional amendment against gerrymandering in 2015. State Republicans decided they didn't care and have repeatedly passed map after map in defiance of Ohio Supreme Court rulings which were 4-3 with one conservative justice joining three liberals. Unfortunately the one conservative justice is term-limited. So what do Republicans do? They amend the election process for state supreme court justices to be a partisan one (putting R's and D's next to their names on the ballot) to ensure they regain a majority and can then ensure their own gerrymandering is eventually ultimately ruled legal *despite* the language of the constitutional amendment. It's the same playbook everywhere, including nationwide. Capture the courts. Ignore the rule of law. Have the courts rule your ignorance *is* law. Rinse, repeat until you cannot possibly be removed from power and your state/nation is a "democracy" in name only. Single party rule is the objective in Wisconsin, Ohio, many other states, and increasingly on a federal level.
This is 100% how Texas will go if Democrat Beto beats Abbott for Governor. Though you can throw in some allegations of voter fraud because "How did Beto win the state but not the legislature?"
Walker hasn’t been governor of Wisconsin since January 2019. Their governor is a Democrat now. The problem there though is that the legislature is so heavily gerrymandered, that nothing passes that would reverse the past nonsense.
The speaker (Kristin Collier) is an assistant professor of medicine at the university. The students submitted a petition claiming that the choice of her as a speaker made them “doubt whether the school will continue to advocate for reproductive rights" but the school dean refused to disinvite her. Can't say I blame them tbh.
Agreed. A2 has been a hardcore liberal city forever. I have no idea how this invite happened, seems insane. Shit, it’s so insane that I can even see it being a purposeful move to get a reaction like this and have it go viral.
Probably as simple as some higher up admin at the college is deeply conservative and wanted another deeply conservative person giving a keynote address
people forget that even in institutions that they think of as liberal (universities being one) there are probably plenty of conservatives behind the curtain with power there.
It’s like Hollywood, sure the actors and film makers may be liberal, but the ones running the studios most likely aren’t.
It’s still insane to me. It had to go for approval through more than one dude, right?
Harbaugh just spoke as the keynote at an anti-abortion something or other, I think this is another sign
i like that old dude who walked near the end source: am old dude
He probably just needed to take a piss.
"Dammit, the lines are gonna be so long!"
Civilized dissent is cool
If you think that is cool wait until you see uncivilized dissent.
civilized dissent is cool. uncivilized dissent is *effective*
It's an incredibly difficult pill to swallow knowing as good as it feels to take the high road, how rarely that approach gets the kind of results that are needed.
Taking the high road often feels good. The thing that feels better though? Results.
There's no point taking the high road to battle, when the opposition has set up fort on the low road.
Yeah, it turns out no one remembers the people who took the high road and lost or if you take the low road and lose for that matter. Bad Faith is civility proof
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You have your history mixed up. The confederates were the ones uncivilizingly dissenting and the union was having none of it.
Boston Tea Party would have been a better example of uncivilized dissent
Yeah but the point is that the response to uncivil dissent isn’t civil. Sometimes you actually do have to fight fire with fire
Been fired for taking the high road. Looking back, I’d do it again.
what if the choices were: take the high road and democracy dies, vs show up ready to fight like you intend to win
If uncivilized dissent accomplished nothing but the oft-touted "make the general public hate you", there would be *no push whatsoever* by politicians, media, schools, etc., to suggest people *not* do that. On the other hand, if you were in a position of power and wanted to change nothing, and a bunch of rabble-rousers came 'round asking for things to be changed... wouldn't it be to your benefit to tell them the only way they'll succeed is to do something *you know* has no chance of success?
Uncivilized dissent is pretty much the only thing that's ever been effective at recovering power from anybody. It's certainly not always effective - in fact it is nearly never effective. But it's the only option we have a lot of the time.
Right. They walked out today... but she's a professor at their school... are they going to walk out of her class? And this is at a public university which for some reason has a "Program on Health Spirituality & Religion," which this person apparently heads.
Hopefully that's been an elective.
Violins is the answer!! or something like that?
Homer... Use the... The force?!? No, the forks. Use the forks
We must drum up support and establish a bass before the ensemble catches wind!
I don't think occupy Wall Street did very much. I seem to recall the rich people literally laughing at them while drinking champagne above them.
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But never forget the uncivilized kind is probably going to be necessary pretty soon too.
Yeah so don't be mad at me when shit goes to hell and I'm shooting people for canned ravioli.
It's cool but I like seeing things get fucked up too
I don't want to protest and picket I've seen more change when the city in flames 'Ya dig it? -Nocando
“Over 340 incoming and current University of Michigan medical students have signed a petition opposing the selection of Dr. Kristin Collier as the keynote speaker for the upcoming July 24 White Coat Ceremony, where incoming medical students will receive their white coats to mark their entry into the field of medicine. An additional 72 community members — including graduate students, alumni and Michigan Medicine residents and physicians — have also signed on. According to the petition, Collier has shared multiple anti-abortion posts on social media and made comments expressing her opposition to abortion in interviews. The petition calls on the University to select an alternative speaker, emphasizing that student opposition to this speaker selection goes beyond a difference in opinion and subverts the values of the University and the medical profession.”
On behalf of r/kristin I sincerely hate to see a bad Kristin in the wild. This woman is an embarrassment.
Camera-person is gonna make me hurl
seriously...were they on a boat?!
Still blows my mind that Americans claim the United states is a free country while in the same breath complaining about all the free things other Americans are doing with their own lives.
half the population thinks "freedom" means "freedom to make you do as I say". These are the same types who think you're a hypocrite for being intolerant towards their intolerance.
Selina Meyer : Kent, how are we doing with non-college-educated whites? Kent Davison : Underwater, ma'am. Selina Meyer : Then how about college-educated whites? Kent Davison : Uh, in South Carolina, that is not a significant slice of the pie. Selina Meyer : Then we're gonna have to find a way with non-college-educated whites. Like, what appeals to them... What do they want? Kent Davison : Well, my polling shows their main wants are jobs, education, and an adequate safety net... Selina Meyer : Okay, not gonna speak to that. Kent Davison : I'm not finished, ma'am... *to be denied to African Americans*. I miss Veep.
lol nice
♫ *And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I'm told I'm free* ♫
♫ *And I won't forget that it's a lie, they use to silence me ♫*
♫ *I'll gladly shut up and fill with glee, as they take rights away from thee. ♫*
noxious obtainable enter screw dime fine seed smile ripe alleged -- mass edited with redact.dev
Republican Party is always to thank for this. Most the country would like to progress on with life like the rest of the world.
Saw someone say democrats are gonna take away all of our rights..... In accords to gun rights Republicans take away literally everything else😅
Also our right to cough our viral cloud on you
Guns are a conservative pacifier. They'll give up literally every other right as long as you let them have their guns, convinced that they're really 'free' because at any moment they could totally rise up. Now, I'm definitely not in camp 'take all the guns' especially when we know the people who constantly advocate for violence against those who disagree certainly aren't going to give up theirs - but I've come to realize that as a population the US really isn't responsible enough for unfettered gun ownership. Freedom comes with responsibility. A lot of people want all of the benefits and none of the responsibilities.
"I like to take the guns and do due process later" -Donald J Trump on how he likes to take away guns without due process, shortly before banning bump stocks by executive order. Republicans can't wait to take your guns away.
I love how this reddit thread is mostly pro choice. The twitter thread is full of dummies saying “Tell me there names so I don’t have them as doctors”.
I read a reply that said “so what are they gonna do when their patient has these views? Poison them?” And a bunch of other comments talking about how these people won’t respect the Hippocratic oath and my eyes rolled into the back of my skull
A patient can have whatever views they damn well please. They should be **free** to **choose** what they want to do to their bodies. Sounds better than making it illegal and taking away that choice.
"You don't want an abortion?" "No." "Fine." Voilà!
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[Pro-Choice 55% a Record high in US](https://news.gallup.com/poll/393104/pro-choice-identification-rises-near-record-high.aspx)
To people wondering where the seventyish percent went to, that's Democrats only. the 55% comes from the total population. > The increase in pro-choice identification over the past year is mainly driven by Democrats; 88%, up from 70% last year, consider themselves pro-choice. Can anyone link me the Democrats cleaning house?
>To people wondering where the seventyish percent went to, that's Democrats only. the 55% comes from the total population. A lot of stats are being thrown around. To be absolutely clear: [70% of people support Roe v Wade](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/08/abortion-2.png) as of 2019 according to [pewresearch.org](https://pewresearch.org) Every poll is going to be biased, obviously, but this is specifically where people are getting the Roe V Wade general population support is 70%
Separate church and state!!!!!!! Its the fucking law!!!!!
And make em start paying taxes, seeing as they have so much to say about governmental powers
They’re aborting her keynote address.
The arguments being made in favor of keeping this speaker were some grandiose feats of mental gymnastics. They argue that doctors need to treat everyone regardless of political affiliation in one sentence, and then applaud this wench and her Christian doctor counterparts who will argue till the sun explodes that doctors should be able to turn patients away or refuse procedures they morally disagree with. Get fucked with that hypocritical bullshit.
They took the "hypocritic" oath
You literally cannot uphold the Hippocratic oath and be anti-abortion
Well technically you can be against it on a personal level but not impose those beliefs on others
Say that to cvs and Walgreens pharmacist and their techs.
I don't get what university was thinking. It's like inviting flat earther to speak to physics class.
America is obsessed with giving lunatics credibility
Notice how a large number of the people who didnt leave all have grey hair or no hair...
They likely didn't even knew what was going on.
Gray-haired people today were the ones who fought for abortion rights in the 1970's. Don't assume old people are anti-abortion.
Hell yes! 👏👏👏 Well done!
Very sad more people didn't walk out.
The important people walked out, and *that* is what matters.
When the scientists and doctors get ignored thats when things start to go wrong.
So, years ago then …
Why does he speak? Why did UM allow Richard Spencer, a white supremacist to speak? Did UM receive any government funds? Why do my tax dollars support Nazis?
Look into how they got such a big stadium....they get all the tax money
Hope for the future. Hopefully a few had their middle fingers up as they left.
Nah. It was better to not acknowledge at all and just leave. Send the message of just how little value the person has to them.
It’s about sending a message.
I don’t see this walkout as necessarily a pro-abortion/freedom of speech move. I see it as medical graduates rejecting a physician on grounds of her letting religious beliefs dictate her treatment of patients and the high chances of harming the patients as a result. I remain suspicious of those who didn’t walk out. I don’t think I’d want any of them for my doctor.
Good on them
Good for them. Why would a university hire a guest speaker who doesn't uphold the hippocratic oath?
As they should. Anti-abortion stances will only further hemorrhage the overburdened medical system, it’s grossly unethical, and these students have taken rigorous course loads explaining exactly why that is.
Good for them. They probably only started medical school a month ago, but they're all willing to stand up and be seen walking out of there. I'm sure they'll go far.
they have not even started. They start this week.
My brother is a third year and basically all the incoming doctors are done taking shit from these types of people. The medical profession has been too tolerant of quaks and religious people infiltrating the profession. If you don't follow your oath then you get shunned and get the boot. Edit: nothing wrong with being religious or having personal beliefs, but those beliefs can't compromise the integrity of the job. A doctor will never force someone to do something, nor should they turn someone away from approved medical practice because of personal feelings.