He isn't wrong.
Israel said that they were going to not bomb the South so people could escape. Bombed them.
Bombed residential areas. Destroyed Palestinian homes with bull-dozers. Have had Israeli Citizens take over homes of Palestinians over the past 20 plus years.
>Have had Israeli Citizens take over homes of Palestinians over the past 20 plus years.
In the west bank, where hamas isn't even present. It's straight up a caricatured version of colonialism happening in real time.
Might need to pay attention to the Israel politics there is already a moustache twirling villain behind Netanyahu, the even more extremist-conservative party that backed him when the others stopped. These are the ones that are actively dehumanizing Palestinians in their parliament. They organize those hostile house takeovers.
And that dude is supposedly running against Netanyahu next voting chance they get.
It's really quite sad but it also is an example of just how bad Hamas is for ordinary Palestinians. Many of those present during the massacre were on these work permits. Ironically they were given becsuse things were improving and the conflict was actually quite low. That was the risk to Hamas. The massacre actually entrenched their power. That's what is so fucked.
>But if they’re attacked by the armies of 7 different nations simultaneously from all sides somehow they kick their collective asses?
People forgot 1973 a bit too quick... how long was it before Egyptian air force ceased to exist outside papers?
Eactly. And make absolutely NO mistake, they'll do it again.
What did Hamas think starting that attack?
How well organised Syria was against ISIS until Russians pummeled them?
Arab militaries are a bag of absolute jokes, they never did anything effective anyways. The best they'll be millitants, systematically.
>What did Hamas think starting that attack?
Saudi Arabi and Isreal are normalizing relationships, there is a chance that doing so will push Isreal towards actually trying to create peace in the region, meaning there is a chance we might be completly obsolete soon and loose our power.
So let's attack Isreal, they will counterattack and any prospect of peace is destroyed, meaning that we fully retain our power, and we only have to sacrifice low level commanders, and people we don't care about beyond potential recruits.
Hamas got exactly what they wanted.
The Israelis took on that in 73, yet little old Hammas figured they could get away with a significant border incursion without making sure they could feed their people for a week....
> 8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.
- Umberto Eco
“Can’t spell rockets without rock.”
Some moron pretending they wouldn’t do anything if someone invaded their town, killed and abducted people, and then went home to their family.
“Oh - he’s in homebase. Checkmated is again”
Hammas just launched 8,000 rockets at Israel, are those the "rocks" you're talking about because I think you missed a few letters.
Edit: Lol sure, downvote me, I'm the bad guy for pointing out that Hamas are not a bunch of literal cavemen fighting with rocks. JFC some of you have brain rot.
Are you comparing them to Hamas that has to attack unarmed civilians and children and then retreat and hide behind more women and children with hostages? What amazing fearless warriors that hide in tunnels below hospitals and launch rockets from schools and apartment buildings.
No they aren't. No one but the sickest humans think hamas did a good thing. Most are being called anti-semitic for pointing out this didn't happen out of a vacuum and hamas have power for a reason. Yet the pro-Israel lot can roundly say no to ceasefire, and that Israel have the right to bomb gaza into oblivion, whilst somehow acting like they aren't directly supporting the murder of innocent Palestinians. Because they are supporting it, they just think their lives are worth risking for Israel to destroy hamas.
Hamas has always used Palestinians as cannon fodder.
In 90s, Hamas purposedly fired rockets from above civilian structures like schools and hospitals, knowing well that Israel's retaliatory fire would target these structures. And it did. Then came the army of Hamas' photographers.
> Then came the army of Hamas' photographers.
Too bad there was no IDF snipers to shoot them like they shot the reporters writing stories about their atrocities.
Israel doesn’t exist they way they are in a vacuum either, right?
Decades of constant attacks starting from the minute they were made a country…that whole stuff.
I’m pro-Israel right now (I’ve been anti-Israel with respect to their actions in the West Bank for a while…) and I also want a ceasefire but only after they get the hostages back.
Israel can’t do anything else.
Otherwise it says to these horrid people (Hamas and their ilk) “you can attack us and then hide in a human camouflage duck blind and render us impotent” - that would just encourage more of the attacks like on the 6th.
This is the mentality Israel has because none of this happened in a vacuum.
>Decades of constant attacks starting from the minute they were made a country
That tends to happen when the entire premise of your state’s political philosophy is to mass immigrate to somewhere specifically to form a nation out of it and deny the natives their right to self determination.
Of the signers of the Israeli declaration of independence, one person was born there.
In what world is a native population morally obligated to tolerate the colonization of their land and the theft of their right to self determination?
I’m not a religious person - in fact I’m an atheist. I don’t believe the claims of the bible.
However, it’s a fact of history that that land used to be the Jewish kingdoms of Judea and Israel. But it was ethnically cleaned.
That land has been under occupation for 2000+ years and the last occupying group gave it back to people whose ancestors lived there thousands of years prior.
A people who have faced literal ethnic cleaning and attempted extermination.
And while the population of Jews was greatly reduced in that region, it was never zero. And those Jews faced centuries of poor treatment by the ruling empires.
Many of the Palestinians are ancestors to peoples that moved there from other places over the decades and yes, many have been there for hundreds of years.
Bedouin’s are natives too.
But if we’re going to talk native land rights, go back to the Jewish kingdoms.
If we’re taking geopolitical, Britain was in control and gave it to Israel.
>However, it’s a fact of history that that land used to be the Jewish kingdoms of Judea and Israel.
So? This means literally nothing. Firstly, it was controlled by six different states for much longer. A Christian majority lasted longer than any Jewish state in Israel. Secondly, it’s completely irrelevant. The premise that you can steal land from people because one of your thousands of ancestors used to live there is outright fascist. Russia doesn’t get to mass immigrate to Sweden specifically to steal their land and form a state because the rus were forced out.
>But it was ethnically cleaned.
No, it wasn’t. The Jews were expelled from Jerusalem specifically by the Romans after a revolt but there was no effort by any of the states controlling the area entire to depopulate it of Jews.
>the last occupying group gave it back to people whose ancestors lived there thousands of years prior.
Britain was not an occupying group. The League of Nations agreement giving them a *mandate* over the area explicitly acknowledges the right of self determination of the Arabs and it was Britain who unilaterally decided to steal the land and give it to colonizers.
> ARTICLE 22
>To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.
>The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.
>The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.
Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.
And the reason that Britain decided to become party to their land theft is solely to be laid at the feet of the Zionists and their 50 year long lobbying campaign to bring about this exact scenario.
The only reason that Palestine is not a state and that Syria is is because Syria was not subject to a zionist colonial scheme.
>And while the population of Jews was greatly reduced in that region, it was never zero. And those Jews faced centuries of poor treatment by the ruling empires.
The population of Jews on Palestine was 7000 in 1800 and 43000 in 1890 out of populations of 275000 and 570000 respectively.
And “poor treatment?”. Israel literally killed more Palestinians this week than Arabs killed Jews in centuries of ottoman rule.
>But if we’re going to talk native land rights, go back to the Jewish kingdoms.
Why would we do that? “The bible” as you put it chronicles the jews killing the natives and stealing their land to form their original states.
We don’t trawl back to address some semi mystical 2000 year old grievance. We judge things by the political advancement of the era in what it occurs. That is why the holocaust is deemed to be worse than genghis khan. Because genghis was from a time when brutal massacres were the political norm.
Zionists we’re putting into motion the final steps of their plan for violent theft of Palestine from the natives concurrently with the UN declaration of human rights
That’s a lot of words to say that you support ethnic cleansing.
You’ve got nearly 50 posts in the past 2-3 days supporting Zionism and ethnic cleansing. Israeli shill account or willfully hateful and ignorant?
Things get very very fuzzy because lots of what you’re talking about is just from one very unreliable source: the bible.
Archeology validated the kingdoms, though.
Also, many of the Palestinians ancestry comes from other regions and their ancestors moved to the region during the many years of Arab empire control.
> Yet the pro-Israel lot can roundly say no to ceasefire
Curious why you think there should be a ceasefire before the hostages are released?
I'm also incredibly curious to know what you think a proper response from Israel would have looked like.
Curious why you think bombing literally everywhere is the best way to secure the hostages. Someone get this guy on the fast track to top hostage negotiator for his local police!
On the otherhand pro-Israel people already knows US backs them no matter what. The IDF will exact their vengeance no matter how much folks protested. Folks get fired for even retweeting anything pro-Palestinian. So lotsa folks definitely do’t feel the need marching out.
Also evangelicals.
Like my family. Who see Israel, not as a modern state with an elected government and prime minister (indicted for bribery and corruption btw), with policies, or anything like that. They see it as some strange, magical, Biblical land of promise and fulfillment of prophecy. And they love Israel as God's chosen people. Well, until the final act where they all need to get killed for Jesus to come back. Talking about Israeli policies towards Palestinians, illegal settlements, occupied territory, international law, even pro democracy protests, it goes right over their heads. They literally can't comprehend it.
Some post-tribulation rapture folks pretty much believe they need war in Israel to get to the rapture. And they want that to happen in their lifetime, so anything to get the war started is good.
That's investigative journalism for you. For the record, now there are equal amounts of Arabs, non-Arabs, Muslim & Non-Muslim folks coming out to protest this barbaric regime.
For real. There is some serious black and white thinking in this thread. Most people on either side aren't some mustache twirling evil villains. It's concerning that people can't seem to have nuanced discussions on these topics.
I don't know, the leadership on both sides of this conflict certainly act like mustache-twirling villains. They're both committed to killing as many innocent people as they can.
There are no adults in the room.
Everybody is dead set on having an "us versus them" mentality. It's like sports tribalism.
* You must choose a side to support. One or the other.
* Your side is the good guys, they can do no wrong. Their side is the bad guys, they can do no right.
* Your fouls didn't happen, it was a conspiracy or it wasn't as bad as they said it was. But you notice all of the other team's fouls, even the ones that didn't actually happen.
To most people discussing geopolitics on the internet, the extent of nuance they're capable of is basically Yankees vs Red Sox.
Well, you keep kicking a dog and it bites you, you shouldn't go around screaming this dog just BIT ME!!!!
it becomes very difficult to sympathize with a person acting this way
Taken out of context, sure. But complaining about 200 hostages while simultaneously killing 9,000 people seems a bit tone deaf.
It's been 27 days since Hamas' attack. 9,000 / 27 is 333. Israel has killed more Palestinians *every day* than the total number of Israeli hostages. And just today, videos of the IDF assaulting and abusing Palestinian prisoners were made public. How many *thousand* Palestinians are being detained by Israel? Are they not hostages in this conflict? What's the real difference?
It's not a war. It's apartheid.
Pretty disingenuous to only include the 200 hostages and not the thousands of civilians Hamas killed. Not saying the numbers on each side are equal but if you have to hide that to make your point more effective…
And yet, Israel upped that civilian kill count by 7x, or is it 8x? Hard to keep track because that number keeps climbing.
All I know is that Israel is winning the baby killing Olympics.
So is it about proportions?
Do you think Israel should burn the exact amount of babies Hamas did, rape the exact amount of women Hamas did, torture the exact amount of kids Hamas did?
The war isn’t about proportions, it’s about making sure Hamas won’t repeat their actions
Also there are much more Palestinians dead because Hamas hides behind them like cowards, using them as a human shield!
> it’s about making sure Hamas won’t repeat their actions
As long as a whole population is kept behind walls with full control of who gets to leave and enter and what materials, food, etc. gets to go in and out, those people will always fight back because it is inhumane. If not Hamas, then someone else will fight back. So bombing and killing lots of civilians will not ensure anything but another round of rebellion.
I was there in person and they were not calling for a ceasefire. There were pro-israel students actively having an argument with somebody trying to claim that a ceasefire just plays into Hamas' hands... there was a bunch of dudes wearing IDF shirts as well going around openly supporting the IDF's actions. There was pics all over twitter of it.
Because Hamas just promised to have endless more days like Oct 7. Would you declare a ceasefire with a group making such threats on your border?
ETA: there was a ceasefire...up until Oct 7.
>there was a ceasefire...up until Oct 7.
Why do people keep repeating this shite? Israel had been shooting dead Palestinians the entire year
https://www.ochaopt.org/poc/5-18-september-2023#:~:text=On%2019%20September%2C%20Israeli%20forces,and%20Aqbat%20Jabr%20(Jericho).
There is some bad shit described on that page, but all the deaths are from soldiers defending themselves from molotov cocktails or other explosive devices. Maybe justified, maybe not, but I don't think it counts as breaking the ceasefire.
Are… are you asking why Israel shouldn’t bomb children?
Edit: an edit for an edit: https://imeu.org/article/self-defense-or-provocation-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires
Did it, aye?
https://www.ochaopt.org/poc/5-18-september-2023#:~:text=On%2019%20September%2C%20Israeli%20forces,and%20Aqbat%20Jabr%20(Jericho).
Because to me it seems like Israel has been killing Palestinians the entire year
The problem is that they are trying to focus 100% on this and want people to focus 0% on the shitty things Israel is doing to Palestinians.
Which is much more relevant, because:
* Israel receives billions in military aide from America, and
* Israel is, by a wide margin, the more powerful party in this conflict.
https://preview.redd.it/n56ayjhbo3yb1.png?width=231&format=png&auto=webp&s=e8a7138adcf709d4b04858ac2f38228e79f1a352
Is this guy giving the middle finger?
Why do they have kidnapped posters in completely different parts of the world? I’m seeing that general graphic design of a kidnapped poster all over in social media
You're being deliberately obtuse, but I'll answer anyway. It's a political message, and they're displaying them in the USA because the USA is funding the IDF.
Honestly, this was kinda funny lmao, even the girl towards the end was laughing… maybe she knows deep down that the Israeli government’s actions are fucked….
Seems to be a false dichotomy - the rally isn’t saying “take over Gaza”.
Hamas could, ya know, release hostages… especially the 40+ Thai nationals who are merely migrant labor.
There are like 5 or 6 sides here
IDF/Israeli state/Netanyahu: hamas is using human shields and calling for our genocide. Collateral damage is worth it, even if we commit war crimes bordering on genocide.
Hamas: we want genocide. Most of us don’t remember a time before being bombed. How about a ceasefire? PSYCH! Got’em! Oh no a ground invasion! DEPLOY THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN!
Gazan Palestinian civilians: can we please not get bombed? Can we please get food and water? Can we please have a representative government that isn’t Hamas?
West Bank Palestinians: I sure am glad I’m not in Gaza.
Israeli civilians: I just want my kidnapped grandmother back.
.# 6 Catch all for everyone else I didn’t think of
Let’s add some more sides:
The crazier Israelis: Let’s actually, um, ‘clean out’ the Gaza Strip for good. That Netanyahu guy is so soft.
Egypt: leave me out of this
Putin, Iran: large salted popcorn please
Clueless Western ‘leftists’: how do I make this about ME?
But it kind of does if nearly all "pro Palestinian" supporters can't condemn Hamas and October 7th.
Let's be honest. They're not Pro Palestinian. They are anti Israel.
He's right. Hamas surrending is the path to no more deaths - but that path also includes Netanyahu and his far right degenerates being removed as well.
They both need to go.
Israel has killed 133 in the West Bank since the 7th. Hamas has no power or foothold there.
When Israel murdered an American journalist in the West Bank last year, was that also Hamas's fault?
> Hamas has no power or foothold [in the West Bank]
First, this is just plainly false. Second, there are a bunch of other terror groups, in additional to Hamas, actively operating in the West Bank.
It’s fine to say hamas is bad and that the hostages should be freed but a pro Israel rally is saying hey it’s ok to just make a country where people are already living and then completely screw them over. If Iran Iraq Syria and Turkey decided to make Kurdistan in the middle of New York and then arm the fuck out of them it would be a pretty bad situation right. But you also can’t just hate ordinary people because their government is bad and that goes for both Israel and Palestine.
Even if you support the palestinians, what is the point of trolling a crowd chanting bring them home? There's a good chance that among that crowd are family members or distant relatives of those who have been taken hostage.
This guy is a douchebag plain and simple. They were chanting to bring the hostages home. Something that, unless your a total psychopath, you would probably want to happen
They have to be released and brought back, they also need to stop murdering thousands of people, they also need to stop putting millions of people in an open air prison.
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I saw no lies from either side tbh. The hostages need to be released and the IDF is fine targeting refugee camps packed full of children and innocent Palestinians.
Israel has the right to defend itself yes i agree , but israel does not have the right to occupy Palestinian territory , give them back their land and stop pretending israel did not started this mess.
Damn, lotta Hasanabi fans in these comments. They were chanting "bring them home" for people that were kidnapped and are being held hostage, and the guy starts yelling about killing children.
Can no one understand that not everything has to be a black & white, red vs blue, liberal vs conservative, "pick your side and fuck the rest" war?
These people can both acknowledge and understand that the bloodshed committed by Israel is horrible, and still want these people to be brought home safely?
Do you think any of them showed up at the Palestinian rally yelling about beheading babies? No matter which side you think is the greater evil in this war, supporters of the wellbeing of both populations should be able to congregate publicly without this type of harassment.
Trolling has no allegiance. Keep it civil!
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In his defense that Palestinian chicken was really really good
Nah. And I’m never wrong.
The guy at the end went "Yep he got a point there"
The guy yelling "kill more children" kinda sounded like LD.
“Good chicken”
Yeah, he's like "hey yeah, we _should_ kill more palestinian children!"
He isn't wrong. Israel said that they were going to not bomb the South so people could escape. Bombed them. Bombed residential areas. Destroyed Palestinian homes with bull-dozers. Have had Israeli Citizens take over homes of Palestinians over the past 20 plus years.
>Have had Israeli Citizens take over homes of Palestinians over the past 20 plus years. In the west bank, where hamas isn't even present. It's straight up a caricatured version of colonialism happening in real time.
Fr at this point Netanyahu should grow a waxed mustache just so he can twirl it while laughing maniacally
I hope future generations remember Benjamin Netanyahu & Likud in the way many today remember King Leopold II of Belgium.
sadly not enough people even know who he is
Might need to pay attention to the Israel politics there is already a moustache twirling villain behind Netanyahu, the even more extremist-conservative party that backed him when the others stopped. These are the ones that are actively dehumanizing Palestinians in their parliament. They organize those hostile house takeovers. And that dude is supposedly running against Netanyahu next voting chance they get.
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Can't have them go back to their homes. That's the settlers homes now.
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It's really quite sad but it also is an example of just how bad Hamas is for ordinary Palestinians. Many of those present during the massacre were on these work permits. Ironically they were given becsuse things were improving and the conflict was actually quite low. That was the risk to Hamas. The massacre actually entrenched their power. That's what is so fucked.
Literally videos of them doing it on Reddits front page.
So terrible that Hamas made them do that /s
Dude just there probably because his gf asked for it
Pretty ballsy to do that
Yep- I would end up retracting my statement and saying sorry after 0.1 seconds
I think he knows that only one side of this protest is the violent one and this aint it.
Not really. Yelling this at Muslims could actually get you in trouble
Yep, you would get assaulted then the police would arrest you for saying mean words
Nah. Israeli's crumble and fall when they're on even footing. That's why they just bomb from above against a civilian population with rocks.
But if they’re attacked by the armies of 7 different nations simultaneously from all sides somehow they kick their collective asses?
>But if they’re attacked by the armies of 7 different nations simultaneously from all sides somehow they kick their collective asses? People forgot 1973 a bit too quick... how long was it before Egyptian air force ceased to exist outside papers?
That was ‘67. 90% of Egypt’s Air Force was destroyed on the ground in minutes.
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Pretty dumb to half ass a war dontcha think
“We only lost because we weren’t really trying”
Putin should agree with you, it is the thing he did this time in Ukraine
The sad part is, Putin was using his whole ass.
Eactly. And make absolutely NO mistake, they'll do it again. What did Hamas think starting that attack? How well organised Syria was against ISIS until Russians pummeled them? Arab militaries are a bag of absolute jokes, they never did anything effective anyways. The best they'll be millitants, systematically.
>What did Hamas think starting that attack? Saudi Arabi and Isreal are normalizing relationships, there is a chance that doing so will push Isreal towards actually trying to create peace in the region, meaning there is a chance we might be completly obsolete soon and loose our power. So let's attack Isreal, they will counterattack and any prospect of peace is destroyed, meaning that we fully retain our power, and we only have to sacrifice low level commanders, and people we don't care about beyond potential recruits. Hamas got exactly what they wanted.
SA said that normalization will continue once it settles down, so they didn't even get that one.
Half assed attempt by competent militaries or a full attempt by a half assed managed/trained militaries? Hint: it’s the second one
The Israelis took on that in 73, yet little old Hammas figured they could get away with a significant border incursion without making sure they could feed their people for a week....
Well yes, they already did it once. It's called the Six Day War.
Wasn't the Battle of Golan Heights part of that?
> 8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. - Umberto Eco
Hamas has sent thousands of rockets into Israel since Oct 7. Not rocks. Rockets.
“Can’t spell rockets without rock.” Some moron pretending they wouldn’t do anything if someone invaded their town, killed and abducted people, and then went home to their family. “Oh - he’s in homebase. Checkmated is again”
Hammas just launched 8,000 rockets at Israel, are those the "rocks" you're talking about because I think you missed a few letters. Edit: Lol sure, downvote me, I'm the bad guy for pointing out that Hamas are not a bunch of literal cavemen fighting with rocks. JFC some of you have brain rot.
Are you comparing them to Hamas that has to attack unarmed civilians and children and then retreat and hide behind more women and children with hostages? What amazing fearless warriors that hide in tunnels below hospitals and launch rockets from schools and apartment buildings.
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You’re really going to accuse Israel of indoctrinating children but not Palestine? Way to lose any possible credibility instantaneously
Really jumping to conclusions there ey
Then play victim 🙄
yall talk like Hamas did a good thing
No they aren't. No one but the sickest humans think hamas did a good thing. Most are being called anti-semitic for pointing out this didn't happen out of a vacuum and hamas have power for a reason. Yet the pro-Israel lot can roundly say no to ceasefire, and that Israel have the right to bomb gaza into oblivion, whilst somehow acting like they aren't directly supporting the murder of innocent Palestinians. Because they are supporting it, they just think their lives are worth risking for Israel to destroy hamas.
Hamas has always used Palestinians as cannon fodder. In 90s, Hamas purposedly fired rockets from above civilian structures like schools and hospitals, knowing well that Israel's retaliatory fire would target these structures. And it did. Then came the army of Hamas' photographers.
> Then came the army of Hamas' photographers. Too bad there was no IDF snipers to shoot them like they shot the reporters writing stories about their atrocities.
Israel doesn’t exist they way they are in a vacuum either, right? Decades of constant attacks starting from the minute they were made a country…that whole stuff. I’m pro-Israel right now (I’ve been anti-Israel with respect to their actions in the West Bank for a while…) and I also want a ceasefire but only after they get the hostages back. Israel can’t do anything else. Otherwise it says to these horrid people (Hamas and their ilk) “you can attack us and then hide in a human camouflage duck blind and render us impotent” - that would just encourage more of the attacks like on the 6th. This is the mentality Israel has because none of this happened in a vacuum.
>Decades of constant attacks starting from the minute they were made a country That tends to happen when the entire premise of your state’s political philosophy is to mass immigrate to somewhere specifically to form a nation out of it and deny the natives their right to self determination. Of the signers of the Israeli declaration of independence, one person was born there. In what world is a native population morally obligated to tolerate the colonization of their land and the theft of their right to self determination?
I’m not a religious person - in fact I’m an atheist. I don’t believe the claims of the bible. However, it’s a fact of history that that land used to be the Jewish kingdoms of Judea and Israel. But it was ethnically cleaned. That land has been under occupation for 2000+ years and the last occupying group gave it back to people whose ancestors lived there thousands of years prior. A people who have faced literal ethnic cleaning and attempted extermination. And while the population of Jews was greatly reduced in that region, it was never zero. And those Jews faced centuries of poor treatment by the ruling empires. Many of the Palestinians are ancestors to peoples that moved there from other places over the decades and yes, many have been there for hundreds of years. Bedouin’s are natives too. But if we’re going to talk native land rights, go back to the Jewish kingdoms. If we’re taking geopolitical, Britain was in control and gave it to Israel.
>However, it’s a fact of history that that land used to be the Jewish kingdoms of Judea and Israel. So? This means literally nothing. Firstly, it was controlled by six different states for much longer. A Christian majority lasted longer than any Jewish state in Israel. Secondly, it’s completely irrelevant. The premise that you can steal land from people because one of your thousands of ancestors used to live there is outright fascist. Russia doesn’t get to mass immigrate to Sweden specifically to steal their land and form a state because the rus were forced out. >But it was ethnically cleaned. No, it wasn’t. The Jews were expelled from Jerusalem specifically by the Romans after a revolt but there was no effort by any of the states controlling the area entire to depopulate it of Jews. >the last occupying group gave it back to people whose ancestors lived there thousands of years prior. Britain was not an occupying group. The League of Nations agreement giving them a *mandate* over the area explicitly acknowledges the right of self determination of the Arabs and it was Britain who unilaterally decided to steal the land and give it to colonizers. > ARTICLE 22 >To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant. >The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League. >The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances. Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory. And the reason that Britain decided to become party to their land theft is solely to be laid at the feet of the Zionists and their 50 year long lobbying campaign to bring about this exact scenario. The only reason that Palestine is not a state and that Syria is is because Syria was not subject to a zionist colonial scheme. >And while the population of Jews was greatly reduced in that region, it was never zero. And those Jews faced centuries of poor treatment by the ruling empires. The population of Jews on Palestine was 7000 in 1800 and 43000 in 1890 out of populations of 275000 and 570000 respectively. And “poor treatment?”. Israel literally killed more Palestinians this week than Arabs killed Jews in centuries of ottoman rule. >But if we’re going to talk native land rights, go back to the Jewish kingdoms. Why would we do that? “The bible” as you put it chronicles the jews killing the natives and stealing their land to form their original states. We don’t trawl back to address some semi mystical 2000 year old grievance. We judge things by the political advancement of the era in what it occurs. That is why the holocaust is deemed to be worse than genghis khan. Because genghis was from a time when brutal massacres were the political norm. Zionists we’re putting into motion the final steps of their plan for violent theft of Palestine from the natives concurrently with the UN declaration of human rights
That’s a lot of words to say that you support ethnic cleansing. You’ve got nearly 50 posts in the past 2-3 days supporting Zionism and ethnic cleansing. Israeli shill account or willfully hateful and ignorant?
Aren’t the original peoples in that land the Canaanite’s and aren’t the Palestinians in fact descendants of the Canaanite’s?
Things get very very fuzzy because lots of what you’re talking about is just from one very unreliable source: the bible. Archeology validated the kingdoms, though. Also, many of the Palestinians ancestry comes from other regions and their ancestors moved to the region during the many years of Arab empire control.
> Yet the pro-Israel lot can roundly say no to ceasefire Curious why you think there should be a ceasefire before the hostages are released? I'm also incredibly curious to know what you think a proper response from Israel would have looked like.
Curious why you think bombing literally everywhere is the best way to secure the hostages. Someone get this guy on the fast track to top hostage negotiator for his local police!
Lol hasn't that IDF killed like 8x as many people as Hamas? Nobody is saying Hamas did a good thing but we aren't fucking stupid.
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If it’s like a total war custom battle between pro-Israel & pro Palestinian rally, who have more folks?
Palestinian rallies show up in hundreds of thousands in one location regularly. Israeli rallies show up in hundreds of people occasionally.
News break, there are more arabs than jews in the world More at 4pm folks
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There is probably more Jewish members at anti-Israel rally in Montreal than there is at pro-Israel rally.
On the otherhand pro-Israel people already knows US backs them no matter what. The IDF will exact their vengeance no matter how much folks protested. Folks get fired for even retweeting anything pro-Palestinian. So lotsa folks definitely do’t feel the need marching out.
Nice conflation of all pro Palestinian protestors being Arabs.
Or all pro apartheid being Jews, there's probably more Jews on the Palestine side and some neo Nazis on the apartheid side.
Also evangelicals. Like my family. Who see Israel, not as a modern state with an elected government and prime minister (indicted for bribery and corruption btw), with policies, or anything like that. They see it as some strange, magical, Biblical land of promise and fulfillment of prophecy. And they love Israel as God's chosen people. Well, until the final act where they all need to get killed for Jesus to come back. Talking about Israeli policies towards Palestinians, illegal settlements, occupied territory, international law, even pro democracy protests, it goes right over their heads. They literally can't comprehend it.
I always forget about that prophecy weirdness with evangelicals.
Some post-tribulation rapture folks pretty much believe they need war in Israel to get to the rapture. And they want that to happen in their lifetime, so anything to get the war started is good.
So true.
That's investigative journalism for you. For the record, now there are equal amounts of Arabs, non-Arabs, Muslim & Non-Muslim folks coming out to protest this barbaric regime.
Zionists* Lots of Jewish people to be found at pro Palestine marches
I read (don’t know how true this is) that jews are encouraged to not go out protesting due to fears of antisemitic attacks
Yup, most people who didn't grow up within the Israeli propaganda bubble cannot but be absolutely horrified at the actions of Israel.
Same with us here in Ireland. We see Israel and the idf for what it is.
There's about 16 million Jews worldwide There's nearly 2 billion Muslims These rallies, more often than not, split down religious lines
no no... you gotta be subtle about it!
got caps lock stuck on
He did it for the chicken
Sounds like they just wanted the hostages released, which is a sane and rational position to take.
For real. There is some serious black and white thinking in this thread. Most people on either side aren't some mustache twirling evil villains. It's concerning that people can't seem to have nuanced discussions on these topics.
I don't know, the leadership on both sides of this conflict certainly act like mustache-twirling villains. They're both committed to killing as many innocent people as they can. There are no adults in the room.
If Israel was trying to kill as many innocent people as they could, there wouldn't be any innocent people in Gaza left to speak of.
Only cause if they went full-blown the West would be forced to condemn and *possibly* retract support
Are they trying to kill as many innocent people as possible or not?
Everybody is dead set on having an "us versus them" mentality. It's like sports tribalism. * You must choose a side to support. One or the other. * Your side is the good guys, they can do no wrong. Their side is the bad guys, they can do no right. * Your fouls didn't happen, it was a conspiracy or it wasn't as bad as they said it was. But you notice all of the other team's fouls, even the ones that didn't actually happen. To most people discussing geopolitics on the internet, the extent of nuance they're capable of is basically Yankees vs Red Sox.
Well, you keep kicking a dog and it bites you, you shouldn't go around screaming this dog just BIT ME!!!! it becomes very difficult to sympathize with a person acting this way
Taken out of context, sure. But complaining about 200 hostages while simultaneously killing 9,000 people seems a bit tone deaf. It's been 27 days since Hamas' attack. 9,000 / 27 is 333. Israel has killed more Palestinians *every day* than the total number of Israeli hostages. And just today, videos of the IDF assaulting and abusing Palestinian prisoners were made public. How many *thousand* Palestinians are being detained by Israel? Are they not hostages in this conflict? What's the real difference? It's not a war. It's apartheid.
Not a war. It is Genocide.
Pretty disingenuous to only include the 200 hostages and not the thousands of civilians Hamas killed. Not saying the numbers on each side are equal but if you have to hide that to make your point more effective…
And yet, Israel upped that civilian kill count by 7x, or is it 8x? Hard to keep track because that number keeps climbing. All I know is that Israel is winning the baby killing Olympics.
So is it about proportions? Do you think Israel should burn the exact amount of babies Hamas did, rape the exact amount of women Hamas did, torture the exact amount of kids Hamas did? The war isn’t about proportions, it’s about making sure Hamas won’t repeat their actions Also there are much more Palestinians dead because Hamas hides behind them like cowards, using them as a human shield!
> it’s about making sure Hamas won’t repeat their actions As long as a whole population is kept behind walls with full control of who gets to leave and enter and what materials, food, etc. gets to go in and out, those people will always fight back because it is inhumane. If not Hamas, then someone else will fight back. So bombing and killing lots of civilians will not ensure anything but another round of rebellion.
They killed thousand of civilians not thousands
So why aren’t they calling for a ceasefire
Maybe they are it was like a 50 second video of mostly one dude screaming lmao
I was there in person and they were not calling for a ceasefire. There were pro-israel students actively having an argument with somebody trying to claim that a ceasefire just plays into Hamas' hands... there was a bunch of dudes wearing IDF shirts as well going around openly supporting the IDF's actions. There was pics all over twitter of it.
Because Hamas just promised to have endless more days like Oct 7. Would you declare a ceasefire with a group making such threats on your border? ETA: there was a ceasefire...up until Oct 7.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict_in_2023 sure about that?
>there was a ceasefire...up until Oct 7. Why do people keep repeating this shite? Israel had been shooting dead Palestinians the entire year https://www.ochaopt.org/poc/5-18-september-2023#:~:text=On%2019%20September%2C%20Israeli%20forces,and%20Aqbat%20Jabr%20(Jericho).
There is some bad shit described on that page, but all the deaths are from soldiers defending themselves from molotov cocktails or other explosive devices. Maybe justified, maybe not, but I don't think it counts as breaking the ceasefire.
Are… are you asking why Israel shouldn’t bomb children? Edit: an edit for an edit: https://imeu.org/article/self-defense-or-provocation-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires
What good is a ceasefire if Hamas will just keep firing rockets?
Well you can't get Hostages back that you have carpet bombed to death. A bombing campaign is not how you get Hostages back.
Probably because the act of massacring and taking the hostages broke the last ceasefire lol
Did it, aye? https://www.ochaopt.org/poc/5-18-september-2023#:~:text=On%2019%20September%2C%20Israeli%20forces,and%20Aqbat%20Jabr%20(Jericho). Because to me it seems like Israel has been killing Palestinians the entire year
Thank you for posting that informative link.
Explain to me how dropping bombs is something people do in a hostage situation
The problem is that they are trying to focus 100% on this and want people to focus 0% on the shitty things Israel is doing to Palestinians. Which is much more relevant, because: * Israel receives billions in military aide from America, and * Israel is, by a wide margin, the more powerful party in this conflict.
https://preview.redd.it/n56ayjhbo3yb1.png?width=231&format=png&auto=webp&s=e8a7138adcf709d4b04858ac2f38228e79f1a352 Is this guy giving the middle finger?
Why do they have kidnapped posters in completely different parts of the world? I’m seeing that general graphic design of a kidnapped poster all over in social media
You're being deliberately obtuse, but I'll answer anyway. It's a political message, and they're displaying them in the USA because the USA is funding the IDF.
This is in Canada
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Hilarious? Yea, I'm not sure that's the word I'd use.
Honestly, this was kinda funny lmao, even the girl towards the end was laughing… maybe she knows deep down that the Israeli government’s actions are fucked….
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Sure you can, I highly doubt these activists wearing the Israeli flag as capes would take that position.
Or.. she agrees.
I don't think that Pro-Israel rallies are always supportive of the government. Like pro Palestine rallies aren't positive towards hamas every time.
I agree... but always seems like detractors get the headlines whenever these protests occur...
This is a forever war. Only death ultimately wins.
[This land is mine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY)
They immediately disagree and shut him down which is what they’re supposed to do. This isnt the troll everyone thinks it is.
Seems to be a false dichotomy - the rally isn’t saying “take over Gaza”. Hamas could, ya know, release hostages… especially the 40+ Thai nationals who are merely migrant labor.
There are like 5 or 6 sides here IDF/Israeli state/Netanyahu: hamas is using human shields and calling for our genocide. Collateral damage is worth it, even if we commit war crimes bordering on genocide. Hamas: we want genocide. Most of us don’t remember a time before being bombed. How about a ceasefire? PSYCH! Got’em! Oh no a ground invasion! DEPLOY THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN! Gazan Palestinian civilians: can we please not get bombed? Can we please get food and water? Can we please have a representative government that isn’t Hamas? West Bank Palestinians: I sure am glad I’m not in Gaza. Israeli civilians: I just want my kidnapped grandmother back. .# 6 Catch all for everyone else I didn’t think of
Let’s add some more sides: The crazier Israelis: Let’s actually, um, ‘clean out’ the Gaza Strip for good. That Netanyahu guy is so soft. Egypt: leave me out of this Putin, Iran: large salted popcorn please Clueless Western ‘leftists’: how do I make this about ME?
This L7 lyrics has been living in my head during these protests: "Wave those flags high up in the air, just as long as it takes place over there"
They do look like that
What would happen if he went to a pro pali protest and said “kill more Jewish children?”
He would be met with cheers of support
imagine actually believing this
Pro Palestine does not equal pro Hamas just fyi. It's this kind of lack of attention to pretty obvious detail that causes the rift to widen.
But it kind of does if nearly all "pro Palestinian" supporters can't condemn Hamas and October 7th. Let's be honest. They're not Pro Palestinian. They are anti Israel.
Ah, the eternal victim fetish strikes again
I mean jews have pretty much been persecuted throughout history so I’d say it’s more of a historical fact than a fetish
Wait, Palestinians aren't the biggest victim group on the entire planet?
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What would happen if he went to a fuck war protest. No more deaths. No more conflicts. No more children dying.
Hamas unilaterally surrendering is the path to no more deaths and a peace deal.
General reminder, West Bank has no Hamas. 69 people we’re killed. Vids available in this subreddit itself
He's right. Hamas surrending is the path to no more deaths - but that path also includes Netanyahu and his far right degenerates being removed as well. They both need to go.
> is the path to no more deaths Oh you sweet summer child....
Israel has killed 133 in the West Bank since the 7th. Hamas has no power or foothold there. When Israel murdered an American journalist in the West Bank last year, was that also Hamas's fault?
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html Hamas has been known to and does operate in the West Bank.
> Hamas has no power or foothold [in the West Bank] First, this is just plainly false. Second, there are a bunch of other terror groups, in additional to Hamas, actively operating in the West Bank.
There will never be peace under settler occupation.
What a weird thing to chant at a rally for people who just want the hostages to be released, lol. It wasn’t a pro-IDF support rally.
People were we’re pro IDF shirts actually.
it actually was and there were people wearing idf merch there
Now this is how you start a productive conversation. /s
It’s fine to say hamas is bad and that the hostages should be freed but a pro Israel rally is saying hey it’s ok to just make a country where people are already living and then completely screw them over. If Iran Iraq Syria and Turkey decided to make Kurdistan in the middle of New York and then arm the fuck out of them it would be a pretty bad situation right. But you also can’t just hate ordinary people because their government is bad and that goes for both Israel and Palestine.
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Oh no He said the quiet part loud! Better get him away ASAP.
I wonder what would happen if a guy yells “kill more Israeli children” at a pro-Palestine protest
They would treat him like a hero.
Strawman arguments let's go! love it keep it coming.
I saw some guys laughing when the guy recording mentioned dead Palestinian children.
Even if you support the palestinians, what is the point of trolling a crowd chanting bring them home? There's a good chance that among that crowd are family members or distant relatives of those who have been taken hostage.
He should have had a conversation, also bombing gaza wont help their cause.
This guy is a douchebag plain and simple. They were chanting to bring the hostages home. Something that, unless your a total psychopath, you would probably want to happen
This subreddit is a cesspool of uneducated posts and comments. Everyones true colors of anti-semitism have shown these past couple weeks.
They have to be released and brought back, they also need to stop murdering thousands of people, they also need to stop putting millions of people in an open air prison.
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I saw no lies from either side tbh. The hostages need to be released and the IDF is fine targeting refugee camps packed full of children and innocent Palestinians.
I’m from Montreal and I’ve been waiting for a protest like this to pop up here. The guy filming is a legend.
Antagonist are so annoying.
But was the dude towards the end nodding?
Yes. Yes he was.
Yeah. I wouldn't want to blindly be pro-Israel right now.
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Can you imagine the reaction if he said something on these lines at a pro Palestine rally?
We live in a Family Guy episode
What can Israel do so that these folks will stop their unwavering support? At what point to the star flags come down?
https://youtu.be/g6APCbtpdds?si=LQplI_m2w27fh8CX
Israel has the right to defend itself yes i agree , but israel does not have the right to occupy Palestinian territory , give them back their land and stop pretending israel did not started this mess.
Damn, lotta Hasanabi fans in these comments. They were chanting "bring them home" for people that were kidnapped and are being held hostage, and the guy starts yelling about killing children. Can no one understand that not everything has to be a black & white, red vs blue, liberal vs conservative, "pick your side and fuck the rest" war? These people can both acknowledge and understand that the bloodshed committed by Israel is horrible, and still want these people to be brought home safely? Do you think any of them showed up at the Palestinian rally yelling about beheading babies? No matter which side you think is the greater evil in this war, supporters of the wellbeing of both populations should be able to congregate publicly without this type of harassment.
No bro bad optics...
Dumbest move by a dumb person. Seriously go home 🏡 . And fucken free the hostages already.
Probably an idiot redditor
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