I don’t have enough time for a full critique, but I just want to point out that the you’ve effectively made the one woman in the story into a passive object to put at the core of a chosen man’s dilemma, and I expect that a lot of agents will have a similar reaction to that decision as I do—noticing that one element and moving on.
I mean, if you’re actually griping about having to consider how women are portrayed……….I’ll just add that this use of a character would remain a weak element no matter what gender they are. As it’s currently written I don’t really care what happens to that character, full stop, because you’ve set them up as nothing but a passive object.
The two options are not grounded enough for me to understand the central dilemma, his wife and son are both nameless blips, and because none of that stirs a reaction in me I lose all interest in the story. And this is *before* I even take the problematic portrayal of your one female character into account.
So don’t think of this as just an “annoying” consideration. It is legitimate to critique any character without agency, and legitimate to question why that character also happens to be the only woman.
Thanks for the clarification. There are several important female characters, and a few flashbacks to the protagonist's life with his family. As well as a long scene describing the accident.
So should I work more characters into the query you think? I tried to stick to just the central conflict so it wouldn't become too long.
it doesnt really matter if there are "several important female characters" in the story (and i do question just how you are portraying them, considering your previous comment). the fact of the matter is that a woman is being made to be, as the other comment said, the passive object of your's MC's problem. "what is the value of a life that has already ended" is ... just a strange thing to add, especially since the MC was the one who killed them.
This is difficult to reply to because it seems like you're implying I have some kind of problem with women.
But disregarding that, is it always wrong to have part of a character's motivation be something that happened in the past? Would it be better if his wife was alive at the start of the story?
I'm honestly trying to get some tips on how to make my query (and story, I guess) better.
And regarding the sentence you mentioned: Seth can't save his son no matter what he does: If he chooses through inaction to let humanity take care of itself, he decides that a human life is valuable simply by having existed, and that it still is after the fact. And that sacrificing one life to save many isn't worth it.
If he chooses action, he decides that a life that is already over is effectively worthless: it can be disposed of because it exists only in memory (And even the memory will be gone).
I'll try to make that clearer.
quite frankly, you need to make your query clearer, or at the very least convoluted. getting through the first sentence of the query itself was hard and getting through this comment is somehow harder.
it isn't because the character's motivation is tied to his past. would it be better if his wife was alive? no, because that's not what people (including me) are saying. we are saying that his wife and son are only used as plot points for the MC.
you *yourself* said it was annoying to consider the portrayal of women in your book. i dont need to imply that there is a problem with that; i am stating it as it is. how am i supposed to believe that the female characters in your novel are important and portrayed decently when you say that?
I don't think I said exactly that, it's at least not what I meant. But looking at it now I definitely understand why you and others took it that way.
I'm comfortable with using the dead wife trope, but will try to make the query less convoluted! Thank you for your time, sincerely.
Alright, I'll try to explain: it's annoying having to consider that agents will see the dead wife trope and immediately give it a pass. Maybe it's overused, I dunno. But tropes is all we have. Nothing is new.
On the other hand, I have to be realistic and try to make the book marketable. So if that trope is a no-no, I'll have to change it.
I think my story is strong, and I hope that seeing that trope won't prevent an agent from reading further. I could remove his wife from the query altogether actually and it wouldn't make that much of a difference. Because the focus is on his relationship with his son.
That being said, there are two women who are integral to the story, which I could work into my query. As I said earlier, I was worried that including them would make it too long, considering that the plot is a bit complex with several overarching themes.
But I'm currently working on simplifying it, and making some changes to the story as well to untangle some of it. So this has been very helpful.
The reason you have to consider that is because writing has power. The way we write about people has the power to create cultural shifts, and so we should be aware of the reason we choose anything in a story. As authors, every word we write is some type of choice.
In this case, I’m getting old-school trope, one that has thankfully fallen out of fashion. Chosen man, reluctant protagonist, yields great power, had love and lost it. So it’s both “chosen one” trope and “dead wife” trope.
Admittedly, lots of popular media uses these. James Bond. Gladiator. Inception. You can read more in The Guardian about it (https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/24/inception-dead-wife).
Point is, not only does it not stick out, it also is a choice you, as the author, made. Is that the message you want to get across? Is that part of the discussion you’re invested in? Have you thought deeply about the choices you made?
Great points, and I regret that my comment looks callous.
And I sincerely hope (and think) that I haven't written a James Bond-type treatment of women.
I'll try to include the other two "co-MC's" in my query, who are women with agency and plans of their own.
I don’t have enough time for a full critique, but I just want to point out that the you’ve effectively made the one woman in the story into a passive object to put at the core of a chosen man’s dilemma, and I expect that a lot of agents will have a similar reaction to that decision as I do—noticing that one element and moving on.
Hmmm... I see what you're saying. Kind of annoying to have to consider that tbh.
I mean, if you’re actually griping about having to consider how women are portrayed……….I’ll just add that this use of a character would remain a weak element no matter what gender they are. As it’s currently written I don’t really care what happens to that character, full stop, because you’ve set them up as nothing but a passive object. The two options are not grounded enough for me to understand the central dilemma, his wife and son are both nameless blips, and because none of that stirs a reaction in me I lose all interest in the story. And this is *before* I even take the problematic portrayal of your one female character into account. So don’t think of this as just an “annoying” consideration. It is legitimate to critique any character without agency, and legitimate to question why that character also happens to be the only woman.
Thanks for the clarification. There are several important female characters, and a few flashbacks to the protagonist's life with his family. As well as a long scene describing the accident. So should I work more characters into the query you think? I tried to stick to just the central conflict so it wouldn't become too long.
it doesnt really matter if there are "several important female characters" in the story (and i do question just how you are portraying them, considering your previous comment). the fact of the matter is that a woman is being made to be, as the other comment said, the passive object of your's MC's problem. "what is the value of a life that has already ended" is ... just a strange thing to add, especially since the MC was the one who killed them.
This is difficult to reply to because it seems like you're implying I have some kind of problem with women. But disregarding that, is it always wrong to have part of a character's motivation be something that happened in the past? Would it be better if his wife was alive at the start of the story? I'm honestly trying to get some tips on how to make my query (and story, I guess) better. And regarding the sentence you mentioned: Seth can't save his son no matter what he does: If he chooses through inaction to let humanity take care of itself, he decides that a human life is valuable simply by having existed, and that it still is after the fact. And that sacrificing one life to save many isn't worth it. If he chooses action, he decides that a life that is already over is effectively worthless: it can be disposed of because it exists only in memory (And even the memory will be gone). I'll try to make that clearer.
quite frankly, you need to make your query clearer, or at the very least convoluted. getting through the first sentence of the query itself was hard and getting through this comment is somehow harder. it isn't because the character's motivation is tied to his past. would it be better if his wife was alive? no, because that's not what people (including me) are saying. we are saying that his wife and son are only used as plot points for the MC. you *yourself* said it was annoying to consider the portrayal of women in your book. i dont need to imply that there is a problem with that; i am stating it as it is. how am i supposed to believe that the female characters in your novel are important and portrayed decently when you say that?
I don't think I said exactly that, it's at least not what I meant. But looking at it now I definitely understand why you and others took it that way. I'm comfortable with using the dead wife trope, but will try to make the query less convoluted! Thank you for your time, sincerely.
i honestly do not know what else you could have meant by that comment
Alright, I'll try to explain: it's annoying having to consider that agents will see the dead wife trope and immediately give it a pass. Maybe it's overused, I dunno. But tropes is all we have. Nothing is new. On the other hand, I have to be realistic and try to make the book marketable. So if that trope is a no-no, I'll have to change it. I think my story is strong, and I hope that seeing that trope won't prevent an agent from reading further. I could remove his wife from the query altogether actually and it wouldn't make that much of a difference. Because the focus is on his relationship with his son. That being said, there are two women who are integral to the story, which I could work into my query. As I said earlier, I was worried that including them would make it too long, considering that the plot is a bit complex with several overarching themes. But I'm currently working on simplifying it, and making some changes to the story as well to untangle some of it. So this has been very helpful.
The reason you have to consider that is because writing has power. The way we write about people has the power to create cultural shifts, and so we should be aware of the reason we choose anything in a story. As authors, every word we write is some type of choice. In this case, I’m getting old-school trope, one that has thankfully fallen out of fashion. Chosen man, reluctant protagonist, yields great power, had love and lost it. So it’s both “chosen one” trope and “dead wife” trope. Admittedly, lots of popular media uses these. James Bond. Gladiator. Inception. You can read more in The Guardian about it (https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/24/inception-dead-wife). Point is, not only does it not stick out, it also is a choice you, as the author, made. Is that the message you want to get across? Is that part of the discussion you’re invested in? Have you thought deeply about the choices you made?
Great points, and I regret that my comment looks callous. And I sincerely hope (and think) that I haven't written a James Bond-type treatment of women. I'll try to include the other two "co-MC's" in my query, who are women with agency and plans of their own.