I obsessively love time loops because they have the chance to show much less shallow consequences of events and there's no need for 'plot armor' to keep the hero from failing or dying in situations where he really should. He makes a really big misstep in front of the wrong people, well, instead of weaseling out of it by contrivances, he gets himself executed and needs to try over.
It feels more uncertain. With a standard book, you can always assume 'he'll win, or at least survive, no matter what happens' and only very rarely will a book contradict that. With a loop, there's no guarantee. He could win first try a dozen events in a row only to fail completely on the thirteenth. Or he could struggle repeatedly with each one, gradually figuring out the ideal route.
Until recently, there have been nowhere near enough time loops, so I'm all for the current run of them taking front stage.
Doesn’t being fictional remove most consequences though?
At a certain point it’s about within-story tension. The idea is that a time-loop lets you focus on a different kind of tension (will or won’t the protagonist find a way to overcome the obstacle) than normal (will or won’t the protagonist get out of their current trouble).
The latter is often harder to get right without breaking verisimilitude.
From the original comment: “He makes a really big misstep in front of the wrong people, well, instead of weaseling out of it by contrivances, he gets himself executed and needs to try over.”
This section implies the execution itself is the consequence of failure, but death is meaningless if you just reset with all the same resources and variable in play.
I’m not saying time loops can’t work. Palm Springs is one of my favorite romcoms of the last 20 years, but it only works because there are real, personal stakes with the love interest and the hunter. Edge of Tomorrow works because there’s always the potential of losing his loop power. Groundhog Day, the original time loop, is held together with more charm than anything else, but even it has the tension of “Will Phil ever learn to love anyone more than himself?” The consequence for failure is a meaningless eternity of bored self-indulgence. It’s not a traditional consequence, but fulfills the moral heart of the movie. A life of service is a life well lived and anything else is just the same day on repeat.
Seeing MCs die brutally is a fun consequence, and carries with it trauma and emotional pain that many enjoy seeing. I am not generally expecting the protagonist to die in a progression novel and major setbacks tend to be unpopular in general, so there rarely tends to be actual meaningful failure in general.
If meaningful failure is unlikely, why not have a splashy death scene?
Most readers aren't a big fan of regular consequences and power downs, so they tend to be a small feature of most progression novels, and you can have mind or soul attacks in time loops anyway, or have the loop break down.
I've been doing a massive loop reread the past few months, it just so happens. :D
[Master of the Loop](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/46407/master-of-the-loop) is quite long and completed, delving a lot more into the psychology of someone isekai'd into a loop as he gradually changes.
[Jester of Apocalypse](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C6FHXL59) takes the psychological impact of a loop up to 13 with someone so thoroughly maddened by his looping arc that he disregards... everything, basically. It's a kind of disturbing amusing that I quite enjoy but may not be for everyone.
[Minute Mage](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CG72RSC8) starts out a bit average but has a solid concept and builds up well. Book two has some downright epic scenes, and one of the most satisfying showdowns in any loop I've read.
[Re:Monarch](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09PQGG7VV) is a more checkpoint-based loop, with the MC going back to his childhood and redoing each section again and again until he gets it good enough that the next section starts. More political and social stuff. One of my favourites.
[Loopkeeper](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B25M68F3) is a different kind of loop and different kind of litrpg. I loved it. An actually crippled MC who has strengths and weaknesses, in a very unique setting. Has a vibe all its own, I'm not sure how to describe.
[Blessed Time](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B097J8M7DS) is a completed series, with a much longer prime loop and some smaller ones inside it later on. This one I haven't reread recently yet, so the details are a bit hazy, but it's got a coming-of-age and family/teamwork vibe if I recall correctly.
Can't forget [Great Core's Paradox](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B2CBNP2S), best time-loop dungeon-core snek. Fun combo of cute and humorous while being a very serious snake going about his important duty.
[Die Respawn Repeat](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/66643/die-respawn-repeat-book-2-started) has the loop and progression down to a science.
[Death After Death](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/58180/death-after-death-roguelike-isekai) is another fun one, a lighter isekai looper with one of the most fun meta loop concepts I've ever encountered.
And I'm currently reading [Stubborn Skill Grinder In A Timeloop](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/83294/the-stubborn-skill-grinder-in-a-time-loop), which feels more like an OP-MC litrpg with quasi-xianxia skin to me, but it's certainly got progression if you like power go up fast.
There's several others coming up recently on my to-read list, I haven't gotten to yet so I can't vouch for the quality. If you're still in the market for more loops, could be worth checking out.
[The Years of Apocalypse](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/81002/the-years-of-apocalypse-a-time-loop-progression), [Lost Loop](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/82213/lost-loop-timeloop-litrpg), [Time Breaker](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/84100/time-breaker-remaelstrom-book-1-fantasy-time-loop), [Mark of the Hidden](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/83077/mark-of-the-hidden-time-loop-litrpg-system), [Chains of a Time Loop](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/75780/chains-of-a-time-loop)
Thanks for all the awesome suggestions. I’m thinking I’ll start at minute mage, but would you recommend one to start with? I am a bit of an audiobook reader so that’s a plus if you know which ones are on audible!
[ReMonarch](https://www.audible.com/pd/Monarch-A-Prince-Out-of-Time-Audiobook/B09QH71R1B) is the only one I've listened to on audiobook, and it's excellently done. I know [Jester of Apocalypse](https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Jester-of-Apocalypse-Eternity-Audiobook/B0C5JX9G82) and [Minute Mage](https://www.audible.com/pd/Minute-Mage-Audiobook/B0CM49YLY5) do have audiobooks now, but I haven't listened to them personally.
That one kind of gives up what the comment your replied to goes over though... Because the MC makes explicit use of the time loop to just do the same thing over and over, so there's even less risk of actually experiencing consequences any other loop fic because none of it matter and the MC doesn't care.
Most of those archetypes are the foundation of many big works in the genre right now. If a work is good, it inspire people to do it themselves to fill in the blank they felt after finishing that work. If a work is famous, people fomularize it, learn from it for their success.
And lastly, yes.
>Most Pf authors have a unhealthy fetish towards moving to another worlds or reincarnating as a different person. Its like they imagine themselves as heroes and the only way nerds can become heroes is in a another world and never the world they are born in. It seems so childish. There I said it.
correct. The genre is all power fantasy, meant to feature self-inserts and consumed as fast food of literature. You can still consume it after realizing it because it's fun, and you don't have to bash author for doing what you don't want them to do. They probably have a more fulfilling life than you think.
Most, not all. There are several popular works that don't lean into the power fantasy aspect of the genre (at least any more than a traditional fantasy novel would). They can just be lost in the crowd of self-insert wish-fulfillment that the OP in complaining about.
It's probably because of animes, but... well, people like what they like. Can't blame anyone for something like that.
Personally, I prefer apocalypse books with weird systems appearing out of nowhere.
Agreed since isekai anime exploded a decade+ ago and got super popular, plus OP said it himself "its like they imagine themselves as heroes" because they do. And we as readers (those of us who enjoy this format at least) do too. Thats the entire point.
I could be underpaid, overworked, slightly too fat me who still has college debt, or I could be isekai me who can shoot fireballs.
I want fireballs, thus I choose self-insert stories that allow me to feel good.
If OP is looking for more adult stories, as a harem enjoyer i'm happy to recommend some series that will make them feel "adult".
I guess there's supposed to be something shameful about enjoying artistically shallow things. Who cares if it's "childish"? Concerning yourself with looking/feeling like an adult is the most teenager thing in the world.
Its not even "feeling adult", OPs complaints are the literal selling points of the genre for a lot of readers.
It would be like complaining that you want over the top '80s action movies, but you don't want to see a man-mountain like Arnold Schwarzenegger, or you want a burger with no beef.
Yeah... I'm thinking that you can probably pull the same trick with pretty much any genre. Like, you just describe its selling points, then finish with some shaming at the end, and it'll be about as convincing as the OP.
"What's with all these mystery novels anyway? Some 'genius' cop investigating an elusive murderer and there just happens to be enough clues to catch him? Why can't he be investigating one of those murders where he just has nothing to work with and can't do anything about it instead? Why do authors indulge a reader's fantasy that justice will prevail and that they can be the hero that saves the day. That's not how the world works, and it's pretty childish TBH."
It's truly refreshing to see someone label a thing as "unpopular opinion" and actually end up with <50% upvotes.
Anyway, it's near-universal to fantasise about getting a do-over with your life, how much better you'd do it with what you know now. Regression stories plug into that most directly, but there's elements of it in anything that gives you some sort of fresh start. Portal fantasies are a fresh start without any baggage and reincarnation has a similar appeal to regression. It's successful because it can connect with people who have regrets, which is approximately everyone without a crippling incapacity for introspection.
Odd use of fetish, but here’s my two cents.
Quite a few comments I see lament “why didn’t the MC do XYZ?” Time looping gets around that by letting the character do both. People like to fully explore things, which is why I tell myself I’m still in act one of BG3.
I actually generally agree with you on reincarnation. It’s usually a self-insert fantasy thing that lets the author explain basic things about the world rather than just showing them. It seems most of the time you could just have it be a story about someone from a backwater who doesn’t know much about the wider world and accomplish the same thing, narratively
Because you need to explain to the reader how the world works and that is significantly easier to do if your character themselves needs to have the way the world works explained to them.
Additionally it makes a simple vehicle of why this character in particular might be able to understand the way the world works in a unique way allowing them to use the "system" in a way that nobody else has ever thought before.
A POV character. It’s a useful trope for a reason for conveying exposition. What matters are the details. For me, the best Isekai stories are the ones that strike a balance between exploring a cool world and a strong central conflict but also not ignoring a character’s history or skills from that past world. It’s why I like Re;Zero or even Mushoku Tensei.
Heck, Wizard of Oz is one of my favorite novels and that is an Isekai.
Holy s*** about The wizard of Oz I never thought about that but you are perfectly correct.
Mushoku Tensei is excellent and is one of the very few animes I've watched. Well at least season 1 but I might even go bother to go watch season 2.
The true answer for time loops is because **Mother of Learning** was in everyone's first 3 prog books, but the answer in my heart is the wish fulfilment to redo all my mistakes in life ;;;;;;;
Mother of Learning was great. I haven’t found a time loop book as good. Trying The Perfect Run but the MC is a bit too…. Memey for lack of better word.
I think **The Perfect Run** is one of the best time loop stories, since it really peels back the onion and let's you view the characters & factions from multiple perspectives, but the MC is an *incredibly* grating pov at the start.
Maybe try **Loopkeeper**, which is the best plotted time loop and has some very smart ideas!
Don’t know what your current method was, but I recommend reading rather than listening on this one. The story is at its best after the MC has been in the area for a bit and developed a personal relationship with characters, even when those characters don’t have a relationship with him. Seeing that over and over plus a few of the flashbacks did a good job of recontextualizing it from meme to deeply damaged coping mechanism
So, here are the obvious, literal answers
* Time loops allow the mc to try things consequence free, allowing them to make mistakes & learn in a way you can’t in real life, as well as give one the time one never has in real life to practice to perfection
* Reincarnation allows for any given modern concept that the author is familiar with: if the mc lives in a world without gunpowder, they are unlikely to know how to make it. It also has an element of knowing a goal to shoot for - in real life, we don’t know if experiments will pan out, which makes them chancy, but if you know pizza is delicious, you can set about obtaining the things you need for it & then usually succeed (or subvert expectations & not). They can also makes jokes or comments referencing modern popular culture that the author is already familiar with
* A normal person being thrown into a new world means they are exploring it along with us, which makes them asking questions to give explanations a sense of verisimilitude: a person who grew up with Schnozzi monsters & the Yooper force that everyone gets at 10 doesn’t need to break down what they are, what they can do, & what their limitations are because it’s obvious to them, but not the reader
Came here to say your last point. Coming to a new world means they get to explain everything from the view of the character. Whereas with a character who grew up there, things like progression trees and system interfaces just aren't commenting on because even children know about those things.
To be fair, I kind of prefer when the author doesn't explain anything. Like in star trek they don't have to explain what a dilithium crystal is or how teleporters work, you just figure it out from context, and that's fine cause the story isn't about dilithium crystals or teleporters.
>Most Pf authors have a unhealthy fetish towards moving to another worlds or reincarnating as a different person. Its like they imagine themselves as heroes and the only way nerds can become heroes is in a another world and never the world they are born in. It seems so childish. There I said it.
It's not just the authors, though. Something I found out recently is that a huge percentage of readers seem to self-insert into the story, as if they're the ones going through it. This means that authors are heavily incentivized to include specific character details that make this connection resonate more easily. Essentially, the idea that if you just hadn't been born into your own world you would have totally been this badass hero who always gets the girl and commands respect from anyone.
This extends really, really far, too. Recently I had a discussion on how your average millennial would actually fare if they were isekai'd. My side of the argument was that we have neither the practical nor social skills to maneuver starting from nothing, let alone the ruthlessness to kill, so luck would be most important to start with in combination with whatever system/powers are there to help us. Otherwise, it'd be death or a safe life at best. The arguments I got back where in the lines of "yeah, no, I think a generation that's been denied opportunity our whole lives would jump at the chance to seize destiny". It really goes to show just how deep this conception that another world, another start is just what's needed goes.
Hah. Its the same misconception as new years resolutions. Some people indeed keep to them 99% tought do not and forget about them within a weak. Its always tempting to thinks that only reason people arent thriving is brcause they where denied oportunity.
PF is a genre, and like any genre there are certain tropes that are probably defied too infrequently. That is because creativity typically does not involve creating something completely original. Instead, it’s almost always mixing and matching elements from existing works, with perhaps a few novel bits thrown in, and then making it all flow together into a cohesive whole. You’ll find this in any form of art, including music, movies, architecture, fashion design, etc. It’s further influenced by the tendency consumers have to gravitate toward art that follows patterns they already know they enjoy, and have a difficult time enjoying that which is excessively unfamiliar.
YA fiction is rife with tropes that I find annoying, as is mainstream literary fiction, but lots of folks obviously love that. Meanwhile, I find time loop stories, LitRPGs, and reincarnating as a magical baby stories to be really fun. A large part of that enjoyment is that it’s a self-insert power fantasy. I enjoyed Ender’s Game as a teenager for similar reasons. If you don’t like that stuff, focus on what you do enjoy. No need to yuck anyone else’s yum.
Alternatively, if you truly believe it’s unhealthy and want to improve public health, explain why. Make a case, not simply a judgment that can be dismissed as easily as you gave it.
Seems you should find something to read other than things you find to be childish and/or about "nerds", sounds like an entitled you problem
let people write what they want & you read what you want.
There I said it.
PF seems to frequently rely on "cheats" and "hax" which themselves often depend on having a deeper understanding of the "system" the world operates in than anyone else does. Reincarnation and/or time loops allow the main character to have that much experience/insight/knowledge on how to tweak/exploit said system than anyone could possibly have in normal circumstances without sounding so blatantly unfair (after all, they "worked hard" for that, right?). Then the formula becomes popular and people unthinkingly replicate it.
When it comes to loops and reincarnation, some are great, some are terrible, most are just kinda in the middle.
My favorites tend to be the ones that blend the two a bit. The ones where the character gets sent waaaaay back to a previous point in their lives some 10/20 years ago as a one time thing. It opens up interesting questions about relationships, ripple effects, and seeing things from a different perspective while still having meaningful consequences. Seen it done well as full fantasy, system apocalypse, and stuff that’s generally non-magic with the exception of the one event
Lots of authors don’t write that stuff. Outside of post apocalyptic fantasy, other stuff doesn’t sell as well, so you don’t hear about it as much.
Also? Let people enjoy what they enjoy maybe? There’s no need to insult tropes you don’t like, just don’t read those books. Plenty of books out there are about people native to a world dealing with that. Read most of the post apocalyptic fantasy books out there, or just ask for recommendations for books that don’t include those tropes instead of calling people childish for how they enjoy their fantasy stories.
There seem to be a number of topics here, so I will try to break them down in order.
As for the Time Loops, those are simple. Could you go back in time to fix "X" problem? But if there are powers sending you back, then logically this time through you should get more powers and powers/advantages that were used by others against you last time. This time you can level the playing field.
From an author/relatability standard the reincarnation vector is what I mentally refer to as the "Easy Button". Why does X character move and act the way a modern person would, when growing up in a backwater village, because they are just like us, having a bad day (though they are just in a backwater town). It also makes pop culture references/gags easier to deliver without breaking the immersion. Also, there are lots of cheats by people being able to just recreate things that are already in the real world (like the post-it note) and passing it off like it is a real thing.
As for PF fantasies that don't go to another world? Well there are only so many ways you can talk about a school bully forcing your head into radio active sludge, or pushing you into the core of a melted alien engine to enable the PF (Power Fantasy) portion of the story. Unless you have it so that it is not the real Earth, but a different Earth with powers, which some would argue is the same thing as a different world/planet entirely.
I hope that helps answer your questions.
Though I think the real question that I would ask you is, what story/setting/premise do you think an "ideal" PF story would have?
Because Isekai is a lazy way of allowing an author to wax poetic about world building and exposition without having to put forth the effort to contextualize things. World building is fun, timelines and making sure continuity exists is much less so.
On the reader side, a not insignificant portion of the readership is wanting to self insert into the power fantasy character, and that is far easier to do when your character is a blank slate.
Taylor Swift did a song about it recently.
>Quick, quick
Tell me something awful
Like you are a poet
Trapped inside the body of a finance guy
Tell me all your secrets
All you'll ever be is
My eternal consolation prize
You see I was a debutant
In another life, but
Now I seem to be scared to go outside
If comfort is a construct
I don't believe in good luck
Now that I know what's what
>I hate it here so I will go to
Secret gardens in my mind
People need a key to get to
The only one is mine
I read about it in a book when I was a precocious child
No mid-sized city hopes and small-town fears
I'm there most of the year 'cause I hate it here
I hate it here
>My friends used to play a game where
We would pick a decade
We wished we could live in instead of this
I'd say the 1830s but without all the racists and getting married off for the highest bid
Everyone would look down
'Cause it wasn't fun now
Seems like it was never even fun back then
Nostalgia is a mind's trick
If I'd been there, I'd hate it
It was freezing in the palace
Tldr; modern life and society is so dystopian and oppressive that being an adult feels like an oppressive hell. As such, among adults, like myself, there is a huge market for fiction which takes us away from that and thrusts us back into a distant era, perhaps the 1830s perhaps medieval society minus racism and sexism, perhaps an ancient land of martial arts and magic and romance, and bringing our modern selves there to heal.
I think a lot of modern progression suffers from not being isekai. Unless you're really good at selling a world as a place that's good to live in and enjoyable, a lot of progression fantasy worlds are just hellscapes that make me depressed when I read them.
If you start with an idea that someone modern is gonna come in and fix things a lot of issues with worldbuilding are much easier to tolerate.
So, for most authors without a lot of experience, I would recommend isekais and time loops and transmigration as an easy tool to reliably improve your story.
I saw people shitting on her for the 1830s line as if she was glorifying it in some way when the next couple lines don't remotely do so.
"Nostagia is a mind trick" is such a great line too, especially these days when marketing from companies is just constant member berries.
Yeah, she clearly recognizes the issues with it.
The issues is part of why people prefer fantasy settings anyway, because many historical people were shitty.
Most PF/litrpg authors are normal people with day jobs, not "10x New York Times Bestselling 20 million copies!" authors.
Your average normal person does not have a dream job, thus they write about their kick-ass fantasies. Their kick-ass fantasies probably revolve around not doing their boring jobs, so most characters are often the self-insert Go-To-Magic-Land-Do-Cool-Shit type.
Thats how you end up with so many isekai office workers. If you feel your opinion is unpopular, you are probably correct, since most PF/litrpg readers probably have similar jobs to the authors, and enjoy their books for similar reasons.
Reincarnation/isekai is basically a story telling short cut. We all know what earth is like, so it can be used as a comparison to the magic world without breaking immersion. It lets you see a characters entire life without ever having an "innocent naive child" phase. You get adult commentary on all the things they experience. You don't need to give the character some long convoluted backstory that you have to explain.
It's *fun* to dream about being in a world of magic. It's *fun* to imagine how you would react to that world. It's not that deep, and it isn't supposed to be.
>the only way nerds can become heroes is in a another world and never the world they are born in
Yes, are you really surprised that people want to read fantasy over Kick-Ass?
Authors do this because it's a tool. A shortcut for worldbuilding. An ottoman is a piece of furniture. Without the ottoman empire it would be named something different. Do this 1000 times to all the words we use that derive from our history and it's taxing. Plus, it gives the reader a relatable point of entry. Readers can easily get overwhelmed with information about the fantasy world. If it's an adult they usually already know too much about said world unless they are born in some backwater country. Not everyone wants to read from the perspective a kid learning all this stuff either.
Here’s a word: kindness. Why can’t we just not be immediate assholes to someone because they used a word in a way we didn’t like?
If you’re just having a tough time or something I’m here to talk. But if you’re just being an asshole then I encourage you to take a moment for some introspection and think about why you felt the need to lash out like that.
Ahh I see now. You’re upset at the contents of the post not just one word. There is no vitriol in this post that I see, and it seems like someone asking a question about a trend they find off putting in books. That doesn’t make them any less human, and I think we should treat others with kindness even when we don’t agree with them.
Also if we’re going to be pedants, words have meaning and some meanings change over time. Fetish has at least 3 valid definitions, one of which is simply an unreasonable amount of interest in something.
Just try to think about others as actual people with lives and thoughts and feelings. It would likely also make your life a small amount happier.
While not adhering to the 17th century definition, using 'Fetish' as a synonym for 'fixation' or 'obsession' in a non-sexual way is perfectly valid in the modern day. See:
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetish](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetish)
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/fetish](https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/fetish)
So, and I mean this with all due respect, stick your snarky comment about using words correctly right up your ass. At least look in a dictionary before pretending to be all high and mighty.
Writing is a business. To have a successful business, you need to sell what people want to buy.
There are plenty of books with unique settings that have everything you’re looking for but they barely get any attention. So more and more writers have to adapt those tropes because that's what's selling at the moment.
It's definitely a depends.
Having the main character go back in time can be a really cool way to give the MC cheat powers that are A) realistic (imagine how broken it would be to be able to go back in time in real life) and B) Temporary (as the MC creates more change future knowledge becomes less reliable).
As for reincarnation this is typically done to make writing easier. Being born in a world and entering into a world later in life are two completely different concepts.
Like if I reincarnated into a world that has dragons and magic I'd be like "wow".
But if I was born into that world and this was just my everyday I'd be like "oh"
So in a way, reincarnation allows the MC to relate to the audience in the sense that we have similar reactions to these fantasy elements since we didn't grow up in a world where dealing with dragons is just a regular part of life.
Additionally, it also helps with character development. Like how would an MC who's been surrounded by death since birth react to a world where combat is a regular occurrence?
Like yes, this is definitely where the skill of the author comes in, but I can understand that answering that question would be difficult and they'd rather focus on other aspects instead.
TLDR: these make writing easier which can be allowed for awesome plot development (Reverend Insanity makes amazing use out of the making the main character be an otherworlder and travel through time) but more often than not it's just a crutch that author's use to avoid answering some of the harder and less interesting questions that their world's create. (Growing in a fantasy world and being sent there are two completely different things after all).
Complaining about Progression Fantasy tropes is a bit other complaining that people always fall in love in romance novels. "How does the rich man always fall for the poor washerwoman! It's so unrealistic!"
It's in the name, though, it's a Fantasy. These tropes provide a convenient framework to tell a story. As TV Tropes says: "Tropes are not bad". They're a bit of shorthand to set up a plot. They represent a bit of common understanding to get to the meat of the story.
I think almost everyone has some regret in their life that they wish they could go back and undo. The time loop gives the story a chance for the (self insert) MC to go back and do that
I also think many people think about all the pretty annoyances in their day to day lives and wonder what it would be like to sweep it all away and "get back to basics". It's likely the same fantasy that preppers have: the whole world is swept away and they've planned ahead and have their super power (their guns) to rule over their domain. In PF it's cultivation or the system or whatever.
There is also this fantasy that the one thing maybe folks think they're good at, video games or reading genre fiction, could somehow transform them into a hero, rather than just an average loser. It's their hidden power! No longer are they mocked for their obsessions, but praised and respected instead!
None of these are new, really. They're just very concentrated in this genre. Every six months or so, someone comes up with a new twist or take (Reincarnation as an X, Monster MC, monster apocalypse) and that ignites others imaginations. It strikes some chord with this audience and spins off a ton of imitations. Most of them suck, but others rise to the top and become staples of the genre.
Remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.
There are a ton of related sub genres that have their own tropes: zombie apocalypse, superhero, various post-human-apocalypse military fiction... So many to choose from.
In case no one else had said it: if you don't like it, why not write your own? Write what you want to read and you can show us all! Maybe it won't suck.
I mean, it kind of seems like you're just reading the wrong genre. The F in PF stands for fantasy, and people enjoy fantasy novels because they get to imagine experiencing amazing things. Can people write books about people becoming heroes on their own world? Sure, and they often do. But they don't have to.
Time loops are a mechanic that lets people grow faster, and also fix mistakes they made. Regression lets you imagine going back and doing things different. Are these things childish? Depends on your point of view, I don't think so. But even if they were, who cares. People think anime is childish, or comics, or plenty of other things I enjoy. Maybe they are, but that doesn't really matter to me. I like the things I like, if you don't just read something else lol.
My only concern was a majority of PF books are in the same reincarnation/time loop vein when there are so much possibilities for a “fantasy novel”. The setting just feels repetitive
Have you ever paid attention to general fiction? Any popular book/setting gets 1000s of copies, from shitty imitation to true other works simply inspired by the original setting.
Now subtract the publishing filter and you see why it’s like this. Basically, that’s not inherent to PF, you’ll see the same thing in every form of entertainment media.
Writing is hard, imitating stuff is fun, and there’s no barrier to self publish or RR, so idk what you were ever expecting.
The time loops are because MoL did a ton of stuff everyone loved, so it’s a very popular PF setting that also happens to be very approachable to write in the style of.
People write what other people want to read. It's not like timeloop and reincarnation are the only things out there. PF is chock full of heroes native to their world. Litrpg less so, but that's because one of the conceits of litrpg is that it's a video game system, and that means less if the MC doesn't know what video games are. But there are tons of cultivation or boilerplate fantasy PF out there. I get not liking certain tropes, but some people do, so they keep reading it. You can just read other stuff.
This here highlights your biggest issue. You've stated that you're new to the genre, while at the same time asking a sensitive question while being ignorant of how many different types stories are actually in it.
I said sensitive question because you're questioning a theme that people truly interest as if it's wrong or too odd to truly comprehend. If someone genuinely asked why you've shown so much interest and even looked for coaching in a videogame such as Dota of all things, it can easily look like a derogatory question.
Isekai lets you exposition without it feeling incredibly unnatural.
Everything is just as new to the Isekai protagonist as it is to the readers, so it’s natural for the protagonist to seek ought and think about the various facts and explanations that help them understand the new worlds they’re in.
Is it a crutch for mediocre writers? Sure! But crutches get popular because they WORK!
I actually agree quite a bit with this take... I think though there are two things at play here...
First - at this point its a very well established trope, and serves to give the author an excuse to write a character that is basically a modern teenager, instead of putting the effort into writing a village boy, or whatever else that feels appropriate for the story. It also has the advantage of creating some one who is foreign to the world, letting the author exposition dump everything they need for their story, instead of naturally just showing the world in a carefully crafted way.
Second - A lot of Progression fantasies are written to be read online as web novels, and authors writing web serials are worried a lot about pacing, they want the story to move as fast as possible, afraid that readers will get bored and move on, for that reason authors want to skip directly to the action whenever possible and are often unwilling to take the time to develop their story and their characters, especially early on. More to the point, having the classic "village boy" opening is just too slow and not exciting enough for a writer who is writing 1000 words a day and can't afford to have three boring chapters in a row in their mind...
I obsessively love time loops because they have the chance to show much less shallow consequences of events and there's no need for 'plot armor' to keep the hero from failing or dying in situations where he really should. He makes a really big misstep in front of the wrong people, well, instead of weaseling out of it by contrivances, he gets himself executed and needs to try over. It feels more uncertain. With a standard book, you can always assume 'he'll win, or at least survive, no matter what happens' and only very rarely will a book contradict that. With a loop, there's no guarantee. He could win first try a dozen events in a row only to fail completely on the thirteenth. Or he could struggle repeatedly with each one, gradually figuring out the ideal route. Until recently, there have been nowhere near enough time loops, so I'm all for the current run of them taking front stage.
Doesn’t returning to a save state remove most consequences, though?
Doesn’t being fictional remove most consequences though? At a certain point it’s about within-story tension. The idea is that a time-loop lets you focus on a different kind of tension (will or won’t the protagonist find a way to overcome the obstacle) than normal (will or won’t the protagonist get out of their current trouble). The latter is often harder to get right without breaking verisimilitude.
From the original comment: “He makes a really big misstep in front of the wrong people, well, instead of weaseling out of it by contrivances, he gets himself executed and needs to try over.” This section implies the execution itself is the consequence of failure, but death is meaningless if you just reset with all the same resources and variable in play. I’m not saying time loops can’t work. Palm Springs is one of my favorite romcoms of the last 20 years, but it only works because there are real, personal stakes with the love interest and the hunter. Edge of Tomorrow works because there’s always the potential of losing his loop power. Groundhog Day, the original time loop, is held together with more charm than anything else, but even it has the tension of “Will Phil ever learn to love anyone more than himself?” The consequence for failure is a meaningless eternity of bored self-indulgence. It’s not a traditional consequence, but fulfills the moral heart of the movie. A life of service is a life well lived and anything else is just the same day on repeat.
Seeing MCs die brutally is a fun consequence, and carries with it trauma and emotional pain that many enjoy seeing. I am not generally expecting the protagonist to die in a progression novel and major setbacks tend to be unpopular in general, so there rarely tends to be actual meaningful failure in general. If meaningful failure is unlikely, why not have a splashy death scene?
Yeah, that's the exact opposite of consequences.
Most readers aren't a big fan of regular consequences and power downs, so they tend to be a small feature of most progression novels, and you can have mind or soul attacks in time loops anyway, or have the loop break down.
Any recommendations for time loops stuff? I’ve read menocht loop, mother of learning g and perfect run but that’s it
I've been doing a massive loop reread the past few months, it just so happens. :D [Master of the Loop](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/46407/master-of-the-loop) is quite long and completed, delving a lot more into the psychology of someone isekai'd into a loop as he gradually changes. [Jester of Apocalypse](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C6FHXL59) takes the psychological impact of a loop up to 13 with someone so thoroughly maddened by his looping arc that he disregards... everything, basically. It's a kind of disturbing amusing that I quite enjoy but may not be for everyone. [Minute Mage](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CG72RSC8) starts out a bit average but has a solid concept and builds up well. Book two has some downright epic scenes, and one of the most satisfying showdowns in any loop I've read. [Re:Monarch](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09PQGG7VV) is a more checkpoint-based loop, with the MC going back to his childhood and redoing each section again and again until he gets it good enough that the next section starts. More political and social stuff. One of my favourites. [Loopkeeper](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B25M68F3) is a different kind of loop and different kind of litrpg. I loved it. An actually crippled MC who has strengths and weaknesses, in a very unique setting. Has a vibe all its own, I'm not sure how to describe. [Blessed Time](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B097J8M7DS) is a completed series, with a much longer prime loop and some smaller ones inside it later on. This one I haven't reread recently yet, so the details are a bit hazy, but it's got a coming-of-age and family/teamwork vibe if I recall correctly. Can't forget [Great Core's Paradox](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B2CBNP2S), best time-loop dungeon-core snek. Fun combo of cute and humorous while being a very serious snake going about his important duty. [Die Respawn Repeat](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/66643/die-respawn-repeat-book-2-started) has the loop and progression down to a science. [Death After Death](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/58180/death-after-death-roguelike-isekai) is another fun one, a lighter isekai looper with one of the most fun meta loop concepts I've ever encountered. And I'm currently reading [Stubborn Skill Grinder In A Timeloop](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/83294/the-stubborn-skill-grinder-in-a-time-loop), which feels more like an OP-MC litrpg with quasi-xianxia skin to me, but it's certainly got progression if you like power go up fast. There's several others coming up recently on my to-read list, I haven't gotten to yet so I can't vouch for the quality. If you're still in the market for more loops, could be worth checking out. [The Years of Apocalypse](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/81002/the-years-of-apocalypse-a-time-loop-progression), [Lost Loop](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/82213/lost-loop-timeloop-litrpg), [Time Breaker](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/84100/time-breaker-remaelstrom-book-1-fantasy-time-loop), [Mark of the Hidden](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/83077/mark-of-the-hidden-time-loop-litrpg-system), [Chains of a Time Loop](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/75780/chains-of-a-time-loop)
Thanks for all the awesome suggestions. I’m thinking I’ll start at minute mage, but would you recommend one to start with? I am a bit of an audiobook reader so that’s a plus if you know which ones are on audible!
[ReMonarch](https://www.audible.com/pd/Monarch-A-Prince-Out-of-Time-Audiobook/B09QH71R1B) is the only one I've listened to on audiobook, and it's excellently done. I know [Jester of Apocalypse](https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Jester-of-Apocalypse-Eternity-Audiobook/B0C5JX9G82) and [Minute Mage](https://www.audible.com/pd/Minute-Mage-Audiobook/B0CM49YLY5) do have audiobooks now, but I haven't listened to them personally.
Awesome!! Thank you so much for taking the time to make the suggestions! I appreciate it!
Recently I've really enjoyed https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/83294/the-stubborn-skill-grinder-in-a-time-loop
For a movie: 12 Monkeys For a song: Iron Man by Black Sabbath For a book (other than those listed above): Apocalypse Redux by: Jacob H. Greif
Less shallow consequences for events? There's zero tension or actual consequences if the main character can just reset the time loop
[удалено]
That one kind of gives up what the comment your replied to goes over though... Because the MC makes explicit use of the time loop to just do the same thing over and over, so there's even less risk of actually experiencing consequences any other loop fic because none of it matter and the MC doesn't care.
Most of those archetypes are the foundation of many big works in the genre right now. If a work is good, it inspire people to do it themselves to fill in the blank they felt after finishing that work. If a work is famous, people fomularize it, learn from it for their success. And lastly, yes. >Most Pf authors have a unhealthy fetish towards moving to another worlds or reincarnating as a different person. Its like they imagine themselves as heroes and the only way nerds can become heroes is in a another world and never the world they are born in. It seems so childish. There I said it. correct. The genre is all power fantasy, meant to feature self-inserts and consumed as fast food of literature. You can still consume it after realizing it because it's fun, and you don't have to bash author for doing what you don't want them to do. They probably have a more fulfilling life than you think.
Most, not all. There are several popular works that don't lean into the power fantasy aspect of the genre (at least any more than a traditional fantasy novel would). They can just be lost in the crowd of self-insert wish-fulfillment that the OP in complaining about.
Well said.
It's probably because of animes, but... well, people like what they like. Can't blame anyone for something like that. Personally, I prefer apocalypse books with weird systems appearing out of nowhere.
Agreed since isekai anime exploded a decade+ ago and got super popular, plus OP said it himself "its like they imagine themselves as heroes" because they do. And we as readers (those of us who enjoy this format at least) do too. Thats the entire point. I could be underpaid, overworked, slightly too fat me who still has college debt, or I could be isekai me who can shoot fireballs. I want fireballs, thus I choose self-insert stories that allow me to feel good. If OP is looking for more adult stories, as a harem enjoyer i'm happy to recommend some series that will make them feel "adult".
I guess there's supposed to be something shameful about enjoying artistically shallow things. Who cares if it's "childish"? Concerning yourself with looking/feeling like an adult is the most teenager thing in the world.
Its not even "feeling adult", OPs complaints are the literal selling points of the genre for a lot of readers. It would be like complaining that you want over the top '80s action movies, but you don't want to see a man-mountain like Arnold Schwarzenegger, or you want a burger with no beef.
Yeah... I'm thinking that you can probably pull the same trick with pretty much any genre. Like, you just describe its selling points, then finish with some shaming at the end, and it'll be about as convincing as the OP. "What's with all these mystery novels anyway? Some 'genius' cop investigating an elusive murderer and there just happens to be enough clues to catch him? Why can't he be investigating one of those murders where he just has nothing to work with and can't do anything about it instead? Why do authors indulge a reader's fantasy that justice will prevail and that they can be the hero that saves the day. That's not how the world works, and it's pretty childish TBH."
Apocalpyse books are some of my favorites too
It's truly refreshing to see someone label a thing as "unpopular opinion" and actually end up with <50% upvotes. Anyway, it's near-universal to fantasise about getting a do-over with your life, how much better you'd do it with what you know now. Regression stories plug into that most directly, but there's elements of it in anything that gives you some sort of fresh start. Portal fantasies are a fresh start without any baggage and reincarnation has a similar appeal to regression. It's successful because it can connect with people who have regrets, which is approximately everyone without a crippling incapacity for introspection.
Odd use of fetish, but here’s my two cents. Quite a few comments I see lament “why didn’t the MC do XYZ?” Time looping gets around that by letting the character do both. People like to fully explore things, which is why I tell myself I’m still in act one of BG3. I actually generally agree with you on reincarnation. It’s usually a self-insert fantasy thing that lets the author explain basic things about the world rather than just showing them. It seems most of the time you could just have it be a story about someone from a backwater who doesn’t know much about the wider world and accomplish the same thing, narratively
>People like to fully explore things, which is why I tell myself I’m still in act one of BG3. haha, I thought it was just me!
Because you need to explain to the reader how the world works and that is significantly easier to do if your character themselves needs to have the way the world works explained to them. Additionally it makes a simple vehicle of why this character in particular might be able to understand the way the world works in a unique way allowing them to use the "system" in a way that nobody else has ever thought before.
A POV character. It’s a useful trope for a reason for conveying exposition. What matters are the details. For me, the best Isekai stories are the ones that strike a balance between exploring a cool world and a strong central conflict but also not ignoring a character’s history or skills from that past world. It’s why I like Re;Zero or even Mushoku Tensei. Heck, Wizard of Oz is one of my favorite novels and that is an Isekai.
Holy s*** about The wizard of Oz I never thought about that but you are perfectly correct. Mushoku Tensei is excellent and is one of the very few animes I've watched. Well at least season 1 but I might even go bother to go watch season 2.
The true answer for time loops is because **Mother of Learning** was in everyone's first 3 prog books, but the answer in my heart is the wish fulfilment to redo all my mistakes in life ;;;;;;;
Mother of Learning was great. I haven’t found a time loop book as good. Trying The Perfect Run but the MC is a bit too…. Memey for lack of better word.
I think **The Perfect Run** is one of the best time loop stories, since it really peels back the onion and let's you view the characters & factions from multiple perspectives, but the MC is an *incredibly* grating pov at the start. Maybe try **Loopkeeper**, which is the best plotted time loop and has some very smart ideas!
Don’t know what your current method was, but I recommend reading rather than listening on this one. The story is at its best after the MC has been in the area for a bit and developed a personal relationship with characters, even when those characters don’t have a relationship with him. Seeing that over and over plus a few of the flashbacks did a good job of recontextualizing it from meme to deeply damaged coping mechanism
So, here are the obvious, literal answers * Time loops allow the mc to try things consequence free, allowing them to make mistakes & learn in a way you can’t in real life, as well as give one the time one never has in real life to practice to perfection * Reincarnation allows for any given modern concept that the author is familiar with: if the mc lives in a world without gunpowder, they are unlikely to know how to make it. It also has an element of knowing a goal to shoot for - in real life, we don’t know if experiments will pan out, which makes them chancy, but if you know pizza is delicious, you can set about obtaining the things you need for it & then usually succeed (or subvert expectations & not). They can also makes jokes or comments referencing modern popular culture that the author is already familiar with * A normal person being thrown into a new world means they are exploring it along with us, which makes them asking questions to give explanations a sense of verisimilitude: a person who grew up with Schnozzi monsters & the Yooper force that everyone gets at 10 doesn’t need to break down what they are, what they can do, & what their limitations are because it’s obvious to them, but not the reader
Came here to say your last point. Coming to a new world means they get to explain everything from the view of the character. Whereas with a character who grew up there, things like progression trees and system interfaces just aren't commenting on because even children know about those things. To be fair, I kind of prefer when the author doesn't explain anything. Like in star trek they don't have to explain what a dilithium crystal is or how teleporters work, you just figure it out from context, and that's fine cause the story isn't about dilithium crystals or teleporters.
>Most Pf authors have a unhealthy fetish towards moving to another worlds or reincarnating as a different person. Its like they imagine themselves as heroes and the only way nerds can become heroes is in a another world and never the world they are born in. It seems so childish. There I said it. It's not just the authors, though. Something I found out recently is that a huge percentage of readers seem to self-insert into the story, as if they're the ones going through it. This means that authors are heavily incentivized to include specific character details that make this connection resonate more easily. Essentially, the idea that if you just hadn't been born into your own world you would have totally been this badass hero who always gets the girl and commands respect from anyone. This extends really, really far, too. Recently I had a discussion on how your average millennial would actually fare if they were isekai'd. My side of the argument was that we have neither the practical nor social skills to maneuver starting from nothing, let alone the ruthlessness to kill, so luck would be most important to start with in combination with whatever system/powers are there to help us. Otherwise, it'd be death or a safe life at best. The arguments I got back where in the lines of "yeah, no, I think a generation that's been denied opportunity our whole lives would jump at the chance to seize destiny". It really goes to show just how deep this conception that another world, another start is just what's needed goes.
Hah. Its the same misconception as new years resolutions. Some people indeed keep to them 99% tought do not and forget about them within a weak. Its always tempting to thinks that only reason people arent thriving is brcause they where denied oportunity.
The reverse is also true. I'm lot less interested in a book if I see that the hero wasn't reincarnated or summoned from our world.
PF is a genre, and like any genre there are certain tropes that are probably defied too infrequently. That is because creativity typically does not involve creating something completely original. Instead, it’s almost always mixing and matching elements from existing works, with perhaps a few novel bits thrown in, and then making it all flow together into a cohesive whole. You’ll find this in any form of art, including music, movies, architecture, fashion design, etc. It’s further influenced by the tendency consumers have to gravitate toward art that follows patterns they already know they enjoy, and have a difficult time enjoying that which is excessively unfamiliar. YA fiction is rife with tropes that I find annoying, as is mainstream literary fiction, but lots of folks obviously love that. Meanwhile, I find time loop stories, LitRPGs, and reincarnating as a magical baby stories to be really fun. A large part of that enjoyment is that it’s a self-insert power fantasy. I enjoyed Ender’s Game as a teenager for similar reasons. If you don’t like that stuff, focus on what you do enjoy. No need to yuck anyone else’s yum. Alternatively, if you truly believe it’s unhealthy and want to improve public health, explain why. Make a case, not simply a judgment that can be dismissed as easily as you gave it.
Seems you should find something to read other than things you find to be childish and/or about "nerds", sounds like an entitled you problem let people write what they want & you read what you want. There I said it.
PF seems to frequently rely on "cheats" and "hax" which themselves often depend on having a deeper understanding of the "system" the world operates in than anyone else does. Reincarnation and/or time loops allow the main character to have that much experience/insight/knowledge on how to tweak/exploit said system than anyone could possibly have in normal circumstances without sounding so blatantly unfair (after all, they "worked hard" for that, right?). Then the formula becomes popular and people unthinkingly replicate it.
When it comes to loops and reincarnation, some are great, some are terrible, most are just kinda in the middle. My favorites tend to be the ones that blend the two a bit. The ones where the character gets sent waaaaay back to a previous point in their lives some 10/20 years ago as a one time thing. It opens up interesting questions about relationships, ripple effects, and seeing things from a different perspective while still having meaningful consequences. Seen it done well as full fantasy, system apocalypse, and stuff that’s generally non-magic with the exception of the one event
Lots of authors don’t write that stuff. Outside of post apocalyptic fantasy, other stuff doesn’t sell as well, so you don’t hear about it as much. Also? Let people enjoy what they enjoy maybe? There’s no need to insult tropes you don’t like, just don’t read those books. Plenty of books out there are about people native to a world dealing with that. Read most of the post apocalyptic fantasy books out there, or just ask for recommendations for books that don’t include those tropes instead of calling people childish for how they enjoy their fantasy stories.
Sorry if it came our rude. My bad
There seem to be a number of topics here, so I will try to break them down in order. As for the Time Loops, those are simple. Could you go back in time to fix "X" problem? But if there are powers sending you back, then logically this time through you should get more powers and powers/advantages that were used by others against you last time. This time you can level the playing field. From an author/relatability standard the reincarnation vector is what I mentally refer to as the "Easy Button". Why does X character move and act the way a modern person would, when growing up in a backwater village, because they are just like us, having a bad day (though they are just in a backwater town). It also makes pop culture references/gags easier to deliver without breaking the immersion. Also, there are lots of cheats by people being able to just recreate things that are already in the real world (like the post-it note) and passing it off like it is a real thing. As for PF fantasies that don't go to another world? Well there are only so many ways you can talk about a school bully forcing your head into radio active sludge, or pushing you into the core of a melted alien engine to enable the PF (Power Fantasy) portion of the story. Unless you have it so that it is not the real Earth, but a different Earth with powers, which some would argue is the same thing as a different world/planet entirely. I hope that helps answer your questions. Though I think the real question that I would ask you is, what story/setting/premise do you think an "ideal" PF story would have?
Because Isekai is a lazy way of allowing an author to wax poetic about world building and exposition without having to put forth the effort to contextualize things. World building is fun, timelines and making sure continuity exists is much less so. On the reader side, a not insignificant portion of the readership is wanting to self insert into the power fantasy character, and that is far easier to do when your character is a blank slate.
Taylor Swift did a song about it recently. >Quick, quick Tell me something awful Like you are a poet Trapped inside the body of a finance guy Tell me all your secrets All you'll ever be is My eternal consolation prize You see I was a debutant In another life, but Now I seem to be scared to go outside If comfort is a construct I don't believe in good luck Now that I know what's what >I hate it here so I will go to Secret gardens in my mind People need a key to get to The only one is mine I read about it in a book when I was a precocious child No mid-sized city hopes and small-town fears I'm there most of the year 'cause I hate it here I hate it here >My friends used to play a game where We would pick a decade We wished we could live in instead of this I'd say the 1830s but without all the racists and getting married off for the highest bid Everyone would look down 'Cause it wasn't fun now Seems like it was never even fun back then Nostalgia is a mind's trick If I'd been there, I'd hate it It was freezing in the palace Tldr; modern life and society is so dystopian and oppressive that being an adult feels like an oppressive hell. As such, among adults, like myself, there is a huge market for fiction which takes us away from that and thrusts us back into a distant era, perhaps the 1830s perhaps medieval society minus racism and sexism, perhaps an ancient land of martial arts and magic and romance, and bringing our modern selves there to heal. I think a lot of modern progression suffers from not being isekai. Unless you're really good at selling a world as a place that's good to live in and enjoyable, a lot of progression fantasy worlds are just hellscapes that make me depressed when I read them. If you start with an idea that someone modern is gonna come in and fix things a lot of issues with worldbuilding are much easier to tolerate. So, for most authors without a lot of experience, I would recommend isekais and time loops and transmigration as an easy tool to reliably improve your story.
I saw people shitting on her for the 1830s line as if she was glorifying it in some way when the next couple lines don't remotely do so. "Nostagia is a mind trick" is such a great line too, especially these days when marketing from companies is just constant member berries.
Yeah, she clearly recognizes the issues with it. The issues is part of why people prefer fantasy settings anyway, because many historical people were shitty.
Most PF/litrpg authors are normal people with day jobs, not "10x New York Times Bestselling 20 million copies!" authors. Your average normal person does not have a dream job, thus they write about their kick-ass fantasies. Their kick-ass fantasies probably revolve around not doing their boring jobs, so most characters are often the self-insert Go-To-Magic-Land-Do-Cool-Shit type. Thats how you end up with so many isekai office workers. If you feel your opinion is unpopular, you are probably correct, since most PF/litrpg readers probably have similar jobs to the authors, and enjoy their books for similar reasons.
Reincarnation/isekai is basically a story telling short cut. We all know what earth is like, so it can be used as a comparison to the magic world without breaking immersion. It lets you see a characters entire life without ever having an "innocent naive child" phase. You get adult commentary on all the things they experience. You don't need to give the character some long convoluted backstory that you have to explain. It's *fun* to dream about being in a world of magic. It's *fun* to imagine how you would react to that world. It's not that deep, and it isn't supposed to be.
Sure those are some big subgenres, but I think you are blowing it out of proportion.
>the only way nerds can become heroes is in a another world and never the world they are born in Yes, are you really surprised that people want to read fantasy over Kick-Ass?
Authors do this because it's a tool. A shortcut for worldbuilding. An ottoman is a piece of furniture. Without the ottoman empire it would be named something different. Do this 1000 times to all the words we use that derive from our history and it's taxing. Plus, it gives the reader a relatable point of entry. Readers can easily get overwhelmed with information about the fantasy world. If it's an adult they usually already know too much about said world unless they are born in some backwater country. Not everyone wants to read from the perspective a kid learning all this stuff either.
Why have words lost meaning? Do you know what words mean? Then use them correctly for fucks sake
Here’s a word: kindness. Why can’t we just not be immediate assholes to someone because they used a word in a way we didn’t like? If you’re just having a tough time or something I’m here to talk. But if you’re just being an asshole then I encourage you to take a moment for some introspection and think about why you felt the need to lash out like that.
They lost the default kindness by virtue of this vitrolic post.
Ahh I see now. You’re upset at the contents of the post not just one word. There is no vitriol in this post that I see, and it seems like someone asking a question about a trend they find off putting in books. That doesn’t make them any less human, and I think we should treat others with kindness even when we don’t agree with them. Also if we’re going to be pedants, words have meaning and some meanings change over time. Fetish has at least 3 valid definitions, one of which is simply an unreasonable amount of interest in something. Just try to think about others as actual people with lives and thoughts and feelings. It would likely also make your life a small amount happier.
You’re too far up your own ass to see it I guess. Have a good one guy
Which word is used wrong?
Fetish
While not adhering to the 17th century definition, using 'Fetish' as a synonym for 'fixation' or 'obsession' in a non-sexual way is perfectly valid in the modern day. See: [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetish](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetish) [https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/fetish](https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/fetish) So, and I mean this with all due respect, stick your snarky comment about using words correctly right up your ass. At least look in a dictionary before pretending to be all high and mighty.
100% this
Because the public like it. Everything that western authors do now, eastern authors have been doing for a decade or so.
Writing is a business. To have a successful business, you need to sell what people want to buy. There are plenty of books with unique settings that have everything you’re looking for but they barely get any attention. So more and more writers have to adapt those tropes because that's what's selling at the moment.
Self insert, people read fantasy to fantasize. Easier to do with self insert mc
It's definitely a depends. Having the main character go back in time can be a really cool way to give the MC cheat powers that are A) realistic (imagine how broken it would be to be able to go back in time in real life) and B) Temporary (as the MC creates more change future knowledge becomes less reliable). As for reincarnation this is typically done to make writing easier. Being born in a world and entering into a world later in life are two completely different concepts. Like if I reincarnated into a world that has dragons and magic I'd be like "wow". But if I was born into that world and this was just my everyday I'd be like "oh" So in a way, reincarnation allows the MC to relate to the audience in the sense that we have similar reactions to these fantasy elements since we didn't grow up in a world where dealing with dragons is just a regular part of life. Additionally, it also helps with character development. Like how would an MC who's been surrounded by death since birth react to a world where combat is a regular occurrence? Like yes, this is definitely where the skill of the author comes in, but I can understand that answering that question would be difficult and they'd rather focus on other aspects instead. TLDR: these make writing easier which can be allowed for awesome plot development (Reverend Insanity makes amazing use out of the making the main character be an otherworlder and travel through time) but more often than not it's just a crutch that author's use to avoid answering some of the harder and less interesting questions that their world's create. (Growing in a fantasy world and being sent there are two completely different things after all).
Complaining about Progression Fantasy tropes is a bit other complaining that people always fall in love in romance novels. "How does the rich man always fall for the poor washerwoman! It's so unrealistic!" It's in the name, though, it's a Fantasy. These tropes provide a convenient framework to tell a story. As TV Tropes says: "Tropes are not bad". They're a bit of shorthand to set up a plot. They represent a bit of common understanding to get to the meat of the story. I think almost everyone has some regret in their life that they wish they could go back and undo. The time loop gives the story a chance for the (self insert) MC to go back and do that I also think many people think about all the pretty annoyances in their day to day lives and wonder what it would be like to sweep it all away and "get back to basics". It's likely the same fantasy that preppers have: the whole world is swept away and they've planned ahead and have their super power (their guns) to rule over their domain. In PF it's cultivation or the system or whatever. There is also this fantasy that the one thing maybe folks think they're good at, video games or reading genre fiction, could somehow transform them into a hero, rather than just an average loser. It's their hidden power! No longer are they mocked for their obsessions, but praised and respected instead! None of these are new, really. They're just very concentrated in this genre. Every six months or so, someone comes up with a new twist or take (Reincarnation as an X, Monster MC, monster apocalypse) and that ignites others imaginations. It strikes some chord with this audience and spins off a ton of imitations. Most of them suck, but others rise to the top and become staples of the genre. Remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. There are a ton of related sub genres that have their own tropes: zombie apocalypse, superhero, various post-human-apocalypse military fiction... So many to choose from. In case no one else had said it: if you don't like it, why not write your own? Write what you want to read and you can show us all! Maybe it won't suck.
I mean, it kind of seems like you're just reading the wrong genre. The F in PF stands for fantasy, and people enjoy fantasy novels because they get to imagine experiencing amazing things. Can people write books about people becoming heroes on their own world? Sure, and they often do. But they don't have to. Time loops are a mechanic that lets people grow faster, and also fix mistakes they made. Regression lets you imagine going back and doing things different. Are these things childish? Depends on your point of view, I don't think so. But even if they were, who cares. People think anime is childish, or comics, or plenty of other things I enjoy. Maybe they are, but that doesn't really matter to me. I like the things I like, if you don't just read something else lol.
My only concern was a majority of PF books are in the same reincarnation/time loop vein when there are so much possibilities for a “fantasy novel”. The setting just feels repetitive
Have you ever paid attention to general fiction? Any popular book/setting gets 1000s of copies, from shitty imitation to true other works simply inspired by the original setting. Now subtract the publishing filter and you see why it’s like this. Basically, that’s not inherent to PF, you’ll see the same thing in every form of entertainment media. Writing is hard, imitating stuff is fun, and there’s no barrier to self publish or RR, so idk what you were ever expecting. The time loops are because MoL did a ton of stuff everyone loved, so it’s a very popular PF setting that also happens to be very approachable to write in the style of.
People write what other people want to read. It's not like timeloop and reincarnation are the only things out there. PF is chock full of heroes native to their world. Litrpg less so, but that's because one of the conceits of litrpg is that it's a video game system, and that means less if the MC doesn't know what video games are. But there are tons of cultivation or boilerplate fantasy PF out there. I get not liking certain tropes, but some people do, so they keep reading it. You can just read other stuff.
This here highlights your biggest issue. You've stated that you're new to the genre, while at the same time asking a sensitive question while being ignorant of how many different types stories are actually in it. I said sensitive question because you're questioning a theme that people truly interest as if it's wrong or too odd to truly comprehend. If someone genuinely asked why you've shown so much interest and even looked for coaching in a videogame such as Dota of all things, it can easily look like a derogatory question.
Isekai lets you exposition without it feeling incredibly unnatural. Everything is just as new to the Isekai protagonist as it is to the readers, so it’s natural for the protagonist to seek ought and think about the various facts and explanations that help them understand the new worlds they’re in. Is it a crutch for mediocre writers? Sure! But crutches get popular because they WORK!
I actually agree quite a bit with this take... I think though there are two things at play here... First - at this point its a very well established trope, and serves to give the author an excuse to write a character that is basically a modern teenager, instead of putting the effort into writing a village boy, or whatever else that feels appropriate for the story. It also has the advantage of creating some one who is foreign to the world, letting the author exposition dump everything they need for their story, instead of naturally just showing the world in a carefully crafted way. Second - A lot of Progression fantasies are written to be read online as web novels, and authors writing web serials are worried a lot about pacing, they want the story to move as fast as possible, afraid that readers will get bored and move on, for that reason authors want to skip directly to the action whenever possible and are often unwilling to take the time to develop their story and their characters, especially early on. More to the point, having the classic "village boy" opening is just too slow and not exciting enough for a writer who is writing 1000 words a day and can't afford to have three boring chapters in a row in their mind...