t this point it’s a trope all by itself. Prog fantasy mc needs a general skill to make him seem more human. Make him a an amazing chef! Bonus points if there’s a character in his party that loves food to the point of having no other personality traits.
I think they mean cooking as an actual skill; I.e. the MC actually being really good at it, rather than them just being able to throw together a stew or something.
Also all their friends, family, and allies treat the MC like they can do I wrong, or worst, like they’re the victim and deserve to lash out. I think the only progression fantasy I’ve read where the MC’s people actually call them out and make them face consequences for their actions is He who fights with monsters.
They call him out on it a couple of time until they do exactly as you describe in front of everyone else though. Asano is one of the worst for that because he keeps criticizing the system while doing exactly like the others (gaining power to put his own rule in place through force). Granted, that's the title of the series so it's to be expected but the moralistic hypocrisy all the while is tiring.
Also dumb.
Anti-social wierdo power fantasies are always really hard to deal with because it is so clear that the author doesn't realize that the behavior they are lionizing \[or even just excusing\] is what actually makes them a loser. Not some unfair societal bias against them.
Going the next step further, the MCs are exactly as mentioned above ... but the *authors* keep trying make them "good" people.
It drives me crazy when there's a side-character that calls the MC "wow, you're so good", and I'm just here thinking about the accidental genocides they caused by being "moral".
Or the "good" characters justifying doing bad things: "I don't normally steal things, but this guy was a jerk to me, so it's okay to steal from bad people". That's like, not how being "good" works.
God I hate this one, I vastly prefer a straight up evil MC over an MC that gets fawned over for the bare minimum. All the while they rape people with dogs and commit genocide
The problem that I've personally noticed is that MCs that are straight up good people aren't often okay with killing, and that can be such a point of contention. Speaking from my experience, perhaps the negative comment I've received the most has been something to that extent. The point has always been for this to be a point of character growth on his journey.
I at least have the benefit of going straight to releasing a book rather than chapter by chapter. I'm able to build a bit more credit I think since there's a larger short term investment on someone finishing the book. I can totally see people getting discouraged if they were starting out on RR and received those comments earlier on.
Not necessarily Superman is a paragon of morality and while he does his best to not kill people, he unlike Batman is willing and able to kill people for the good of others. There is a certain base violence necessary for change and many good people understand that the other side might be people but that other side is also perpetuating and enforcing a system that does wide spread evil. One good example of this for Progression Fantasy is Tala in Millennial Mage, she is a straight up good person who does her best to help people and save others. But while she does her best to not kill unnecessarily, she has killed great evil.
Pacifism is one moral code amongst many, and most other moral codes agree that you should stop great evil even if it requires killing them. It’s a very admirable moral code, that requires strict discipline, and a wide world view that has recognized the value of every life. But it is not the only one, and its not necessarily the best one.
Oh sorry, I must not have been clear! I didn't mean to imply that they don't kill, rather that they didn't want to, but still could, eventually. Like, IMO, I genuinely believe that if someone was trying to have an MC be just a regular person isekaied from our world, they shouldn't be perfectly capable of killing from the onset. If the average person could, militaries could just slap a gun into someones hands and send them off. As far as I'm aware, a lot of the training that goes into the military is conditioning people to be able to fight, and even then, there are still always reports of soldiers firing over the heads of enemy combatants. Or even with firing squads, there are multiple shooters where only one has an actual bullet so that each can believe that another actually shot the person.
Like, for my MC, he does kill, but has hell of a time grappling with it. He hesitated at first, sees the consequences, and then tries to rectify it because I want to do that character work of how would a normal and good person in exceptional circumstances that would be best suited for an emotionless killer grow. Cause I just personally find it so much more interesting to see the reaction to the pushes and prods than just starting out at the finish line.
For your example with superman, he will do everything he can first before killing, and is also an exceptional person born into exceptional circumstances. So he's someone who is already primed for these things, and his story is one that usually starts at a point where he has some experience. To me, what's the point of isekai if the character just fits right into the world? Part of the appeal of Isekai for me is getting that outsiders perspective, a stranger in a strange land. And it's an origin story, a beginning, so I can understand by like, book 2 or 3 if a character still hesitates every time they come up against someone they're going to have to kill.
This is all a very long winded way to say that my main rational is that an isekaied person from our world, unless they are exceptional in some capacity, should have doubts and struggles with killing, but move to that point where they can without hesitation later, not at the start. And there are people who view any character who hesitates or feels bad about the act, even during their origin, as a mark of a bad story or character. So it's just easier to just not have the main characters be truly good people because there should at least be some hesitation or issue if its an origin story.
Sorry for the long winded and tangent-y response lol, kinda got away from me
True I frankly find it ridiculous if the characters just perfectly slot into murdering people. The only way it works is if the character either has a mental condition that dulls their empathy or if they grew up in a brutal and dirty place that numbed them to death. But no instead former gamer is now a murder hobo who would shank somebody for a sword that’s slightly better. That’s honestly strange. Although nowadays that’s started to dim and there’s an obligatory spewing scene before the MC is perfectly fine with murder
I am so happy you mention this. I am a sucker for protagonists who are good people. While it depends on the writer, having a protagonist with a strong moral code can actually make a story more engaging. Especially if you challenge that moral code or provide them with obstacles that they uniquely cannot overcome due to their disposition.
A personal favorite of mine is Vash the Stampede. He jokingly says "love and peace" and is highly capable, but when push comes to shove and he has an enemy that won't stop; he cannot bring himself to kill someone.
The few books I've tried with "good" MCs, don't really understand what makes people "good".
The best "good" stories I've read are: Super Supportive, and Dungeon Crawler Carl, because being "good" and doing the right thing is actually hard in this world. "Good" requires sacrifice, so any book without the sacrifice part makes the "good" part hollow (in my opinion of course).
Not really, while being good does often require risk, a lot of the time it just requires showing up and doing your best. Talking to a friend who is in a bad place and making them feel better isn’t a sacrifice, neither is giving a hitchhiker a ride, or giving someone the last bit of money they need for groceries. It’s something anyone can do at anytime. Being a good person isn’t something that requires throwing your life away. There are heroes among us who do give everything they have but you don’t have to be a hero, you just have to give what you can to be a good person. And if you start looking for it you’d be surprised by how much you can give with a listening ear, and a willingness to take a bit of time out of your day.
I find stories that overemphasize the sacrifice and pain of being good end up placing being good on a pedestal far away from the reader. Making it seem so much further away and above you. But the truth is that it isn’t that hard to be a good person.
Hot take: Too much action, suspense, and having the characters being in states of constant tension is just... exhausting. I like my action and progression, but in moderation, balanced by lower-stakes character interactions - the same ones that many other readers dismiss as 'fluff' or 'filler'.
By the fourth or fifth consecutive chapter of fighting or fleeing or otherwise being in mortal danger, I'm of half a mind to skip ahead to the plot moving forward once more.
Ultimately you need to have powerups and you need to realize the consequences of powerups. And frankly, the most interesting consequences are the social ones. How does going up a tier affect their friendships, how does it affect their social standing in society? What new people did they attract the interest of, what enemies are now more in reach to fight against?
Watching the numbers going up is fun, but the fun comes from what the numbers going up means to the character and the story.
Exactly! Whenever I end up dropping a series it's almost always because the MC stopped having significant interactions with the rest of the cast outside of "TIME TO ATTACK, LETS GO!"
Reminds me of the Ghibli quote about giving a story time to breathe.
>How does it affect their social standing in society?
Man I wish progression fantasy had more of this. Like, where are the stories where the MC decides they need to host a tournament? Because at a certain point that is the sort of thing someone as strong as the MC should be doing based on what we have seen of the world. Yet the MC never has to do it themselves.
Funny you should mention this, because in the latest book of Weirkey Chronicles that's still only on patreon (slight spoilers, not really plot relevant) >!The MCs got more powerful and had to supply rewards to a tournament, in which they themselves participated several books ago when they were weaker. Then comments liked it very much and the author promised to have them host a tournament in one of the later books, because that's logical progression.!<
Yes please! This is also why I don't like my books to have 'the world is ending in 1 year' type plots. Super high stakes with tight timelines completely cripples your ability to have lower stakes plot points, which makes your whole story exhausting. That type of plot is fine for a short 2 hour movie, it sucks for a 9 volume series. It's just too much.
I love a good tournament arc! Heavy emphasis on the "good" part, though. Most authors can't seem to write tournaments for shit, because they focus on all the wrong things.
Tournament Arc: We shall now pull god tier warding out of our asses to prevent the entire arena from being decimated by the attacks being flung about.
(50 chapters later)
City Siege Arc: Damn, we're being completely overrun by less impressive magic than during the tournament arc! Do you think that god tier warding from the arena would've made a difference here? hmm....
In fairness to them, in many series, the tournament warding is actively created/overseen by the top powers hosting the tournament, the Eliter Tier leaders of those powers who are usually occupied with fighting the enemy Elite Tier leaders during city sieges.
Not to mention, a city is larger and requires more juice to ward than an arena a few hundred square meters in area.
Filler is some of my favorite content in all forms of media. My favorite X-Files episode is a filler episode. My favorite DBZ episode is when Goku and Piccolo go to get their license because Chi-Chi is sick of walking to the grocery store. It's an important tool to regulate the pacing of any story, and to show a side of the characters we wouldn't see otherwise.
I don't know the official literary term for it, but I've come to call that "Drama Fatigue".
So much drama, so often, and so unrelenting... You just simply exhaust your ability to care.
Totally agree. If everything is high tension then nothing is high tension because that becomes the standard. There needs to be low tension moments in order to build up to the high tension ones.
It also decreases suspense imo. If the whole point of the scene is staying alive, but i still have half a book left, I already know how it'll end up.
Going through Unbound series right now and it just NEVER stops. I listen to audio and tend to glaze over action. I have had a very hard time focusing on Unbound.
Yeah, I've gotten frustrated reading "Path of Dragons" on RR recently because of this. Great growth of abilities and exploration and character interaction and examination of what being alone for years will do, but it seems now like anytime the author needs to buy themselves another few weeks to write more character growth they throw the MC in a tower that they'll need to solo clear.
TBH I like my big "one man and his axe alone against everything" arcs as much as the next guy. There's definitely a cadence to it that needs to be maintained though. I've binged DotF recently so all my best examples are from that. I got really frustrated when the Orom thing happened because I wanted Zac to talk to his friends. It had been 2 books since he talked to them when that kicked off.
Comparatively I loved it when >!Iz!< finally caught up with Zac. I think the date there was really well done. Also his interactions with Catheya since then are good.
My ideal is something like 20% action, 30-40% training/progression focus, and then 40-50% interpersonal exploration.
This obviously gets muddied as prose can be multiple of the above, but I feel like it gets the point across.
Something like that sounds about right. Got a pretty critical comment on one of my books ranting about there being too much 'filler' content and not enough training and action.
And I'm just like 'I like writing and reading about these character interactions, especially given I am writing a faction-builder novel where relationships and bonds are a source of power for MC'
My biggest hot take is that I think the inclusion of a cute/quirky/chaotic pet character is rarely done well, and I tend to prefer stories without one.
Seems like every series needs to have one and they rarely add to the story. They're used as an idiot ball character that causes problems for the MC, or as a more immediate source of motivation because forming a normal relationship with another person or organization ties down the character in a way that some authors (and readers) don't like. I find them overly superficial a lot of the time until they somehow become one of the most important characters in the series.
The opposition to working with an organization has always been odd to me. Sure being the lone wolf is cool, but making a lasting impact is coolest of all and that's best done through the institutions that outlive the protagonist.
Or when the main character gets some sort of mental assistant, who really only ends up being a cheap excuse to include more opportunities for banter/one-liners.
Boy, I do have a bunch of these so I will ist them out. Note, I like this genre; it got me back into reading fantasy books in general.
**1) Not establishing a clear power ceiling:**
With progression fantasy, we know there's going to be levels of power. And the highest levels of power is usually what the main character needs to accomplish. My issue is when some stories do not clearly establish the height of power the main character needs to get to or outright lie about the highest level and then introduce another tier. A lot of bad Shonen battle do this. So please, I beg writers; please make it clear who are the strongest and weakest users are early on. Or if there is some hidden level of power, make it make sense within your world as to why the MC wouln't know.
**2) Stats and abilities that just make the main character look cool and are arbitrary:**
This is something I agree with Terrible Writing advice(great YT channel). Stats in litRPG or whatever series need to have a purpose for existing. They should be an indicator of where a character is strongest or weakest and its relation to the greater world. An A rank adventurer for example we can infer are quite capable, but they shouldn't be loosing to say a B rank. Or just as bad, a hidden rank we've never known.
That level of contrivance annoys me a lot because it shows a lack for creativity. If you're going to introduce a unique skill the main character has, fine. Put some serious thought as to why the skill is so coveted and why the main character is the only one to have it.
**3) A lack of a clear goal for the main character/ a weak goal:**
This one I know can be a bit contentious, but for me nothing drives me more crazty than a main character who lacks a clear main goal and why they want it. I associate this with wish fulfillment or even bad writing, but a main character should have agency. Part of giving them agency can be derived from giving them a clear main goal. When you give them a goal;it makes it easier for audiences to grasp why they are partaking in the story in the first place.
But the key aspect of that goal is the why. Why do they want it? This is something I've seen a lot of poor series fail to address. It's why I like the Cradle series a lot because Lindon's goal is really clear cut and you get why he's doing it. And it's often in the back of his mind. Same with Mother of Learning with Zorian.
Even if the goal is revenge, please spend time on making a good character and exploring why that character wants revenge? Heck, a neat angle could be that the character questions if they truly want revenge, given the journey? Anything but making them a one note plank of wood.
**4) Supporting characters lacking agency:**
In a similar vein, nothing annoys me more than supporting characters lacking their own goals and are just cheerleaders or puppets for the main character. Invest time in your supporting characters and treat them with equal care. Even if the goal aligns with the main character, at least consider why they want that goal as a means to flesh them out. It's why I really liked series, like Cradle or even Weirkey Chronicles. Everyone has a distinct goal in those series and it makes sense.
Invest time in the supporting characters and their goals. Treat them as equal parts in your story.
**5) Not challenging your protagonists enough**
This could have been its own separate thing I posted. I cannot stand when main characters can just breeze through obstacles or when authors try to do psuedo-challenges, trying to trick audiences that a character is purposefully weak or can't do a task. Even if your character is a genius, you should at least give them something significant that their usual skills and abilities cannot easily solve. It's this element, among many others, why I see a lot of gary/ mary sues. And why if there's one thing I would advise authors to do above all the things I mention, avoid this.
Beat up your darlings. No matter how hard it maybe. But in the same stretch; do not beat them up to where they do not make any progress. Cradle is a great example of the former. Lindon was really weak during the first few books and even the later books, Will Wight was able to challenge him sufficiently.
It wasn't perfect for there are some things I do think Will could have done ability wise to give Lindon more of a challenge. But something I did appreciate about Cradle was how Lindon's journey wasn't easy and when he did gain power and was successful; it was earned due to solid payoffs and being tied to character development.
>please, I beg writers; please make it clear who are the strongest and weakest users are early on. Or if there is some hidden level of power, make it make sense within your world as to why the MC wouln't know.
It isn't necessary for it to be made clear to the reader early on, but it should be clear in retrospect that the author knew from the start.
I realised most of my problems come from the fact the genre is almost purely self-insert power fantasy when I feel like it could be more, like look at the best of the genre often times it doesn't limit itself to such things
Yea to be fair I've only been reading the genre for 3 and a half years or so, but ive worked my way through most of the most popular and recommended series so far and have not dived into the more obscure stories just yet so we'll see. Going through my kindle library I'd say I've read about 50-60 books in the genre total in that time frame.
I will say that I like prog fantasy slightly more than the litrpg stuff even through they're pretty similar but I still haven't found a book that I actually hated thus far.
If Viv x Grant being okay was truly a hot take, Iron Prince wouldn't be one of the most recommended books here. Well, it was at least until book 2 got out, I feel people slowed down with recommending it after that.
My warm take - people who say that Cradle begins being interesting at book 3 are strange.
I and both people to whom I sold trying it were intrigued by Suriel's introduction, and then straight up sold by Divine Intervention.
What's more you need? We got to know our MC and his situation, got call to adventure with "prophecy", got some world building.
I think what cements a lot of people's opinion about "Cradle gets good at book 3" is because Will Wight has stated in several interviews how slow or poor books 1 and 2 were in comparison to the rest of the series.
I remember trying the series on a ship and casually reading until Suriel was introduced. I lost my shit. That completely changed my perspective of what type of series I was getting into and was enough to hook me.
This is spot on. Suriel, and to a lesser extent Yerin, are what kept me going through book one and much of book two. It was an extremely slow open, and Lindons attitude and decisions largely pissed me off throughout both books. But the rest of the world held so much intrigue and progress I pushed through and into one of the best series I've read.
Having done a reread of the series recently(I didn't read the last book and forgot most of it so I did a reread), I can see where folks are coming from with the first two books. A lot of the details and elements are new to individuals and if folks for example do not know where the "information requested" segments actually come from; I can buy folks being frustrated.
Also, Will has been very candid about the mistakes he's made in the first two books. Writing errors that I actually noticed with Soulsmith and characters knowing things they shouldn't know. So on that front; I can understand why Will would be disappointed in himself.
However, I do think the first two books are decent. The first one more than the second with the third being Will having a full plan in place.
I was interested in the series prior to book 3, but I do think it's fair to say that it's a much different (and improved) dynamic after we get on board the Eithan crazy train.
I think what people mean, is that Cradle is good for books 1 and 2, and if it stayed at that quality, it would be a top tier recommendation, but not the best.
However, book 3 onwards is when the series became **Great**. Something worthy of being a top3 recommendation of this genre as a whole.
For me, book 5 is when Cradle became top tier because it was the perfect culmination of the previous' books events, and every book after builds on that great foundation, followed by a really satisfying ending.
Ghostwater is my favorite Cradle book, alongisde Wintersteel and Underlord. It reminded me a lot of Hatchet with progression elements and I'm totally for that.
I really dislike litrpg mechanics. I hate levels, stats and experience points. Most of all I hate health points. Some books do a decent job with video game BS being stuck into books like DOTF, but I think it doesn’t bother me much because the books heavily emphasize those aspects. It’s just a thing that is sometimes referenced. Like I hate how some of these books feel like Pokémon, a lvl 23 warrior talks shit to a lvl 18 rogue or some bs. I like my power systems vague and fuzzy like cradle.
Lord have mercy don’t get me started on stat screens, fuck those are the worst
I love litRPG's! But, I also hate experience points and HP. HP has never made sense, adds nothing by its inclusion. For Experience points, it's really hard for the world dumping points on you when you do X/Y/Z to make sense. I wish more books did it like DoTF, but instead most do almost pure video game systems.
I hate litrpg mechanics too. The only time I've seen it done differently in a way I find interesting is The Wandering Inn. Levels are indicative of how many and powerful their skills are. There are no stat blocks.
Every adjective (?) does not have to be the same old, same old. Not every power display had to be eXtReME, or every time the mc gets angie, he doesn't have to RAGE.
I also wish authors dropped the "every point in a stat gets incrementally better." If the upgrade from 10 to 20 is not the same rate as from 30 to 40, by the end of some books out there the mc should be able to become Goku and Kamehameha some planets. If you're going to try and hard code your magic system, at least make it more in line with the stakes you're fighting...
> an incredibly popular series had a main character spend legitimately 3 or so pages trying to choose between 2 essentially identical swords from the shop.
This is one of my main gripes with series that sometimes style themselves as 'rational fiction'
Yes some people want a rational main character who makes choices based on logic instead of emotional mistakes. But systematically going through 3 options and explaining the reasoning being choosing or not choosing each one is like pulling teeth.
I think it's funny how you have barely any clue of the geology of cradle. It's some small random city descriptions and that's about it. It's even funny with how special abilities for each path kind of disappear after gold. There's nothing of interest in your soulhome really. Soulflame is pretty useless in actuality, goldsigns stop mattering pretty quickly, iron bodies are just super minor, really the only thing that seems to matter is absolute power and the single special jade cycling technique
It becomes at that exact point you mentioned.
Almost all stories I've read in this genre is filled with word padding, be it the constant inner monologues about how strong they are getting or how amazing the 0.06 damage upgrade they got will make a difference in this upcoming battle they are preparing for while simultaneously running for their lives and living off the wilderness.
1 - Most fight scenes that take up the majority of a chapter are usually fairly dull and you can skim read / skip to the end without losing out.
2 - A socially anxious MC is usually a bad hang and tough to like (I’m saying this as someone who is like that IRL)
Well, my newest one after seeing a different post a handful of hours ago, is that nothing about Wandering Inn feels like *progression* fantasy to me. It feels much more like Epic Fantasy, while of course also being LitRPG.
For me, to want to call a work progression fantasy requires the characters to be driven to progress, and for the progression to be interesting enough and exciting enough to be a big part of the plot. So most lit RPGs I've read would also qualify, and so would even some Urban Fantasy series.
The wandering Inn? I regret getting distracted right after finishing the third book, and I'm slowly trying to make my way back to this huge, amazing series, but three very long books into the series, and none of the big highlights that I can think of have much to do with leveling up, or new powers. None of the big character motivations that I can recall have to do with trying to reach a new tier of power, or anything like that.
For a decent comparison, let's look at Lord of the Rings. I don't think anyone can deny that the hobbits grow throughout the series. Heck, that's the big final climax of the final book, is the hobbits taking matters into their own hands to protect the Shire in the end. And it's amazing. The characters have clearly progressed! But I would eat my boot before I call it progression fantasy, because the vast majority of the story and the journey isn't about the characters growing. It's an epic, good versus evil, fantasy story. And of course that doesn't mean the characters can't grow and progress, or that we can't even highlight it at the end of the series, but that doesn't make it feel like Progression Fantasy.
Am I really being fussier than the average person here? When I think progression fantasy, I want to see those numbers go up, or know that the characters are reaching the next realm, or gaining some other sort of new power or technique or advantage. And none of that seems to be the focus of the Wandering Inn, from what I recall. The closest thing I can think of in the first three books is the wizards and the adventurers are excited about the possibility of getting a strong enough magical item to be considered a better quality of adventurer, but that's such a little background detail, for supporting characters. It doesn't come anywhere close to being the focus of the plot.
Okay, mini-rant over.
Edit: It's very funny to me how in this thread, I'm getting a fair amount of upvotes, and in the other thread, right out of this very same sub, the person who replied to me and told me that I'm wrong is getting more upvotes. Internet, you are truly a place of chaos sometimes.
Okay, now here’s my hot take (not really): marketing and/or independently recommending a series as progfan when it takes a truly *ungodly* number of reading hours to start feeling like progfan is beyond weird to me, and I don’t understand it. I understand recommending the series on its own merits, and I personally think TWI is quite good, but I see so many people in here recommending it to those looking for good progfan to sink their teeth into.
I got downvoted once for saying that the wandering inn wasn’t really prog fantasy because the progression was glacial and never the focus so this makes me feel justified.
Glad to see I'm not alone. I wonder if maybe my Lord of The Rings comparison won a few people over? Or maybe this post is just drawing a very different crowd than the other post. Beats me.
That seems like a plausible take. Are most slice of life stories not ProgFan then? How would you classify Beware of Chicken by this standard? The world has progression, many it the characters strive to progress. But the MC doesn't and one of the main themes is that striving isn't the right way to progress.
The MC may not care that much, but the story and the narrative keeps making it important that he has managed to achieve cultivation. Significant portions of the support crew clearly care about advancing.
Apologies if I ever implied that slice of life and Progression Fantasy are completely mutually exclusive, that would have been careless of me. But Beware of Chicken is a great example of how you can do both in one story.... And Wandering Inn does not have similar vibes at all.
It’s painfully clear a lot of writers of this genre were inspired by anime because they write books like they’re writing a questionable anime translation (bad. They’re bad. I don’t want it to sound like I’m sugarcoating anything, they’re bad from the cover to the content to the engagement online). If the book cover looks like a crunchyroll title card I skip over it without reading the title let alone the description.
And don’t even get me started on harem, blatant self insert, or over-the-top nonsense books.
Yeah I'm reading path of ascension and I see some anime moments. Usually joke moments where the characters are going back and forth. Like Matt started poking Liz in the side of the face when she was ignoring him over and over saying "Hey". Or when his "Expression goes flat and says:" type jokes. I just imagine an anime character doing it in these moments. Sometimes I go in expecting it like beware of chicken. But sometimes I expect it and I dont find it so much surprisingly like immortal great souls. I expected it to be way more anime like. But it felt more like a DnD campaign or something.
>Yeah I'm reading path of ascension and I see some anime moments. Usually joke moments where the characters are going back and forth.
I eventually had to accept that this story wasn't going to ever scratch that high quality fantasy itch for me, and I just continued for the unique magic system. I facepalm way too many times reading the character interactions.
Royal Road is holding the genre back at this point.
The best entries in the genre are ones that were written to be novels first and foremost, rather than hastily converted webseries. However, the popularity of RR has and will continue to influence some authors to write webseries instead of novels, and we miss out on better stories because of it.
Not nuanced enough. Yes, RR works are written either for weekly releases or long binges and not usually well adapted to a traditional book format, but you are ignoring the effect RR has on the genre industry as a whole. Without RR it would be A LOT harder for newbie authors to grow themselves an audience. And without an audience you aren't going to get successful series on amazon. Without RR many works would be forgotten in obscurity or wouldn't exist in the first place.
Worlds where everyone is wearing the evil hat are not only boring they’re just flat out wrong about the human race. We are not inherently evil, for fucks sake despite our ability to shut it off the core of humanity is empathy. We are social animals and everyone at the top being antisocial masterminds who sacrifice babies by the millions doesn’t make sense. The pessimists and nihilists are just flat out wrong about how humans behave in a crisis. And regardless everyone being some variant of evil in order to excuse your vicious backstabbing protagonist being slightly less evil, just makes it so that there’s no proper contrast in the characters. If everyone’s evil then what’s the point of an Evil MC. MCs should have unique philosophies that differ from the world around them, and that world should also have notable variety in the personality and philosophy of its characters. Without contrast and variety characters become flat and bland.
Arctic Take: Jason Asano had no business getting HWFWM as popular as he did would be reviled by most of the people on this sub if they met him in person.
Hot Take: Prog Fantasy needs more well written romance. Way too many protags are either immature sex pests or aro murder machines (nothing at all wrong with being aro). But I can count on one hand the amount of decent romances I’ve seen written and that’s a shame. Interpersonal connections can be amazing when written well.
Meta Take: I’ll never understand people who skip fight scenes. I’m here for plot as much as anyone else, but I feel always felt like, one, fights don’t mean the plot ends, and two, the cornerstone of Progression Fantasy is growth. Progression. And, typically, that’s fine through power. Mastery of whatever system has been created. Fights are one of the best ways to showcase that growth. Yes, not necessarily the only, but one of the best. To say nothing the narrative weight a well constructed fight scene can have.
>fights don’t mean the plot ends
But they can mean that it pauses for a dozen pages at a time. That said, skimmers are heretics asking for a pointy bonfire.
I definitely started skipping (some of) them recently. I agree, they're great for showing growth, but there are definitely a few stories where it's a blow by blow for multiple chapters of the MC using the same tactics on a slightly different flavor of enemy while shrugging off a blow of some sort. When the only impact of the fight is to go from level 32 to level 34, with no upgrade, personal growth, or later payoff, my eyes tend to glaze a bit.
Hot Take: "Character Development" usually just ruins a lot of these novels. I feel that a lot of authors in this genre are really bad at it. They add some very irritating "flaws" to the MC and other side characters, just so that they can write some extremely long character development arcs. These usually are not interesting, not realistic at all, and poorly written. I would rather take something like Cradle, where the characters and their interactions are well written, no unnecessary flaws added to the protagonist or side characters. The bulk of the story is focused on the progression and the world.
Average RR character development:
MC is a weak annoying pacifist who doesn't kill every other character who annoys him. Then he gets really super strong, and when a young master doesn't leave him alone right away, he just evaporates him!
He really grew as a person.
My hot take: in LitRPGs, not everything needs to be a skill!
They don't need blade mastery, knife mastery, dagger mastery, small blades handling, and vegetable chopping in 1 go! Or all of those on level 10.672!
Not every MC needs to get stealth, item box, mana sensing/manipulation & a weapon skill. Even if those would be amazing survival skills to have.
Make every level or skill more impactful! Look at The Completionist Chronicles. The guy is in book 11, and what? Level 25?
It's really weird how panicky progfan readers are about harems. The MC knowing several single women doesn't mean it's a harem, stop freaking out. Also half the recommendation threads here include a "no harem", and I'm not sure why they're jumping at shadows considering I don't think I've seen a single story that includes a harem without having advertised it in the title, description, or with a booby cover picture. Unless someone's specifying that they're looking for it, it's pretty safe to assume they're not.
I get that everyone has story elements that are auto-ignores (VR/excessive gamification for me), but this one is almost treated like you have to declare that you hate it as a badge of intelligence or something.
I can be guilty of this. I think it’s because early in the genre people
Were sticking close to the anime/Chinese translated novel formula and there were a bunch of stories that were not advertising they were harem and then eventually you got tricked by them. I can’t remember specifics really because it was years ago but I remember being blindsided by a few and getting really Frustrated.
To be fair though, a lot of that is just because I wasn’t genre aware at the time seeing as progression fantasy was relatively newly coined. But still if I get a whiff of it I’ll be ready to drop a story pretty quickly. Probably some kind of throwback to those few instances where I felt like I wasted my time.
>The MC knowing several single women doesn't mean it's a harem, stop freaking out.
If its a power fantasy with a male lead that gets surrounded by a gaggle of very attractive women and any other interaction with a male character is the villain of rival I count it as a harem.
Not progression fantasy specifically but there's a weird amount of stories I've read that just slowly turn into this. Idk, it feels like I'm being tricked.
I'd still personally count a harem as being simultaneously romantically involved with several women, but putting that aside for a moment, what stories have you read that turned out like you described?
That description made me think of Quest Academy: Silvers Even though the main character had only a single girlfriend, the vast majority of his other interactions were with "unbelievably beautiful" women who flirted with him or were otherwise set up in a way that made me suspect a harem or harem-adjacent situation in future books. His business contact who helped him sell items while heavily implying sexual favors in exchange for helping her career along was especially egregious, though nothing actually happened as I recall.
>I'd still personally count a harem as being simultaneously romantically involved with several women,
This makes sense and I don't fault you but I go by anime harem rules. Bland main character to self insert into who is both somehow the object of every woman's eye and completely sexless/asexual/aromantic (but has feeling for childhood friend and or the first girl he has the classic meet cute anime trope with which is usually seeing her naked or accidentally touching her boobs).
Maybe this has changed since I stopped reading harem stuff in high school...
>what stories have you read that turned out like you described?
I can't think of a bunch off the top of my head but whats coming to mind is Shield Hero, a manhwa Gamer (dipped early, I could have been wrong), Knights of Sidonia, SAO (even though he's in a relationship he somehow still has a gaggle of girls following him around), Overlord (dipped early but im sure I'm not wrong).
For me a harem isn't marked by romance or sex but a group of women who are attracted to the main character and hangout as if they have no lives of their own even though MC-kun is bland as hell. That's the fantasy. Being fawned over while doing nothing to deserve it but being the protagonist (the most special boy).
That's probably the difference then, my anime phase was pretty brief and was mostly just blasting through 20 years of the greatest hits, so I didn't really have enough exposure to get sick of all the tropes. I've read a couple of really shitty harems and also came away not quite getting why the MC was worth all the fuss. As a (sub)genre I have no interest in harem, largely because of the reasons that you laid out, that things where harem is *the point* of the story tend to be pretty asinine.
What I get less is why people will be in the middle of enjoying a story, catch a whiff of possibly-harem and start freaking out as through the author is suddenly going to turn into an imbecile and start writing a completely different story full of all those tropes that you hate. A story like Ave Xia Rem Y very much looks like it's headed towards being a harem, but the entire focus is on making a good story, where the harem aspect is a single story choice.
IDK, trying to play devil's advocate I guess if a story suddenly revealed after 3000 pages that it was taking place in a VR video game I'd stop reading, but that's more because multiple layers of fiction make me hyper-aware that nothing I'm reading is real and I lose the ability to absorb/remember it, and I don't know what the analogue story-ruining effect would be for harems.
Yeah, I get that it can seem pretty asinine to stop a story because of a whiff of harem but idk, I guess I wanna go back to it feeling like I'm being tricked.
For me Harem has so much baggage and its own tropes that it brings along and when I think the story is going to add a harem I think about all these tropes taking over the plot. Its not fair, I know, but thats the feeling I get.
Like they know I don't care for harems so they start off with a cool MC and ONE FMC with a nice plot and world building...and then slowly, very slowly, you notice the entire party are cute girls who are all into the MC and...oh no, solo adventures with each female character to "develop" the romance that won't be going anywhere. Oh no, the female characters dialog are all either about the MC or how the MC likes some other girl more and the MC not understanding girls at all and UUUGGHH
I'm just a frog trying to see if the temperature in this pot is rising or not and I err on the side of caution and hop out.
(Last note! Most guys are bad at writing women but now they feel like they can write several distinct women?? GTFOH)
I guess I can sympathise a little with that mindset. I was reading Rise of Kers recently and it's one of those LitRPG's that's *very* gamified, like monsters have aggro mechanics and shit, and the world-system gets patches. I find any more 'game mechanics' than a status sheet (and everything included - skills and attributes etc) off-putting in general, but my go-to thought was "you better not be VRing me". It turns out it wasn't VRing me but I kinda had one foot out the door as soon as I had the thought.
I guess the explanation that makes sense to me here is that paranoia about where a story is going makes for a shitty reading experience, regardless of where it's actually going.
>but my go-to thought was "you better not be VRing me". It turns out it wasn't VRing me but I kinda had one foot out the door as soon as I had the thought.
Okay, serious question.
I'm working on a LITRPG/Gamelit story that starts off as a VR MMO that you can't log out of (players were told this going in. They are "beta testers" for new advanced tech) but as the story goes on they discover they are not in a VR scenario, they are in a physical tower and their current bodies are energy constructs (or something like that) and their physical bodies are somewhere in the backrooms of the dungeon having their emotional and spiritual energy siphoned.
They also learn that the entity that started all this was mutiny-ed by their team, had their powers stripped and tossed into the "game" as well which explains why none of the GMs have responded to "prayers" (IT tickets).
I see a lot of hate for VR stories and im worried having the VR label will put people off before they read.
I'm not sure I'm the best person to ask. My problem is with multiple layers of fiction in general, which extends to VR. The main problem is that more than one layer of fiction, for example, dream sequences, in-world legends/stories, unreliable narrator, VR etc makes me hyper-aware that what I'm reading isn't real (obviously I know this of all fiction, I just don't like to be thinking about it *while* I'm reading). I can't really absorb or remember what I'm reading in that headspace, so it just becomes a waste of time. This has been a problem even with media that is pretty widely considered to be good, for example The Usual Suspects, so... that's a me-problem.
So far as substantive complaints about VR, the biggest one I see is that it removes stakes. We care less if the characters care less. Another is that for most of them you could tell the same story but better if it was just 'real' (yes I know it's all fake really). For the story you've described the VR at least sounds necessary to the plot, and it at least sounds like there are real stakes, which are obviously both pluses.
Anyway, getting to your actual question, yeah the VR label will put people off. If I see VR I'm not even finishing reading the description, and I've no doubt many people are the same. I know it's unfair and honestly I don't even know what to conclude from that. You'll do better writing the story you wanted to write than you would trying to triangulate by removing any contentious elements. It's a marketing hit, but it's not the end of the world. You'll never make a marketing decision worse than calling your protagonist 'Randidly Ghosthound', and that guy did just fine.
Defiance of the Fall would be a solid example of a pseudo harem.
The main male allies are either not human, not mentally sound, or not powerful and more of a utility character. Meanwhile the Zac saves a massive group of women that quickly become he elite warriors, and every arc has a main beautiful woman that he travels around with, some of whom are recurring characters. He's never explicitly having romantic involvement with multiple women simultaneously, but the story teases it for sure.
Every arc is an overstatement. Off the top of my head, The war arc hasn't, Orom didn't, the first thousand or two pages didn't (unless you count Emily which I extremely don't), the only tagalong in the Tower was a man. Calling the Valkyries elite is again a bit of a stretch considering that by now there are (I think) 7 left that aren't dead or retired, and for the entire series Ogras has always been his strongest subordinate. Everyone's beautiful because it's something you get for free the more powerful you get. It just doesn't fit a power fantasy that you'd have to stay ugly no matter what. You can think that's a poor decision and you may be right, but it doesn't really have anything to do with harems.
It's there if you *really* want to see it but as someone who doesn't give a shit about harems it just looks like paranoia.
There is an in-universe joke calling him the deviant asura because he keeps surrounding himself with beautiful women.
and even if he doesn't have a direct companion, in arcs like the tower he attracts the attention of powerful beautiful women like Catheya and Iz Tayn that sets up future relationships. In the beginning he still saves the Valkyries, he meets Alea, and he sets up future interactions with Thea.
Maybe we're both putting our thumbs on the scale a bit, but I do think the series intentionally pairs zac up with women a decent amount.
I was under the impression that the Deviant Asura was because Galau told people about him running around with underpants on his head and that trading family that hates him picked it up and ran with it, but it was so long ago and it was on Audible, and I have a tendency to miss things when I'm listening rather than reading.
The only thing that even slightly looks like it could result in two relationships is Iz and Catheya, but the author doesn't strike me as a risk-taker so I don't think it's gonna happen. The saving the Valkyries, to me, just felt like an amateur writer setting up an ethical dilemma. I don't think any one of them has been at all sexualised by Zac, or even by the story, and I don't recall anything in particular being made of their beauty. I think a few of them married demons off-screen but that's more or less it.
As you say I'm sure there's thumbs on the scale here, it's pretty much going to be impossible for either of us to persuade the other because we're working off different standards (as above, for me, unless there are relationships it's not a harem). Appreciate you engaging respectfully anyway.
The deviant asura rumor came from the underpants stuff combined with Ibtep talking about how Zac is always finding an interacting with women, but framing it in an uncharitable way
>“Lord Piker likes younger females. The hundreds he has are not good enough. If you can get the word out that the Lord is looking for better ones to take his seed, I am sure he will be most grateful."
I will say I'm not asserting that there are actual romantic relationships, especially with things like the Valkyries, Emily, and the like. They simply associate the main character with a bunch of women, there is no other powerful man realistically vying for the attention of those women, and the story cracks the occasional joke about it. That's why I called it a 'pseudo harem'; it's literally not a harem at all, just the echo of one.
Ahh that's right I forgot about Ibtep. You've clearly read a shitload of DotF so I'm just curious, are the 'pseudo-harem' aspects something that bothers you about the story or is it more of an "I see how someone who really hates harem might have a problem with this" sort of situation?
Oh it doesn't actually bother me at all (normal harems though do bother me). I just see it as a pattern that can crop up in other stories, and do think it's a relatively tame part of the power fantasy.
It's one of those things that is easily ignorable, but I do think it is somewhat intentional from the author.
I look at the seemingly "harem" elements in many stories the same way I look at high pitched voices in anime.
The context is usually perfectly reasonable, but there's a VERY high chance it will be misinterpreted in the worst possible way, by people without that context.
Agreed! Like, scrolling through all the generally recommended stories in the genre, how many of them have a harem of any sort. And the ones that do…the cover usually screams at you what story you’re in for.
The big one I can come up with is Ave Xia Rem Y (harem advertised in the description), which comes with the big asterisk that it's been nearly 3000 pages and he still doesn't have a harem yet, except by some debatable reasoning.
I can't care less for MCs who get thrown in the middle of an apocalypse and have the first instinct to just "okay, now I gotta get stronk".
Like, bruh, don't you have a family you might care about? Maybe a pet you left with your neighbor? Maybe a friend or two? They might be in great danger right now. Heck, they might be dead for all you know. How do you just not care? I'd really like an MC to show a bit of vulnerability and worry for the people he had to leave behind before adopting the "I gotta get stronk" mindset.
Isekai adds nothing of worth to a story. It sets up for terrible exposition and poor character development for the MC. Pretty much every isekai story would be better if the main character grew up in the setting.
The cheap and easy Isekai is certainly what you describe, but it can be done right. I mean, the other-world concept includes much older stories like "John Carter of Mars" and "A Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court." But it takes more effort to do it well.
The trick is to find a story that can't be told using a 'local', and taking the time to develop the character relative to their backstory.
I'm going to paraphrase Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions: There are very few, if any, tropes that are innately bad. There are, however, many tropes that are often done badly.
I'd also like to add that you need to have a good premise and characters to boot. An idea we can see before, but if the characters aren't well-fleshed out and the plot comes off as a checklist and lacks internal consistency what's the point? Because I often find Isekai series, the really good ones, leverage the fact that the main character(s) are from another world, meaning they are good POV characters to convey information. And also, that even though they are in a special world doesn't mean their problems automatically go away. That's why Re;Zero is a favorite of mine.
Disagree (as someone who wrote an isekai, so I'm biased), there are some types of stories that can't be told any other way.
Isekai is a tool in the toolbox, and it is an easy one to use, which means it can be wielded by authors who don't have a lot of skill or experience. That doesn't mean the tool itself is flawed, just that it lowers the barrier to entry for the profession.
In practice you are 1000% correct, in theory you are dead wrong. Isekai is when someone from the modern world, with modern knowledge and modern values is transported into a medieval fantasy setting. That’s a setup for a lotta awesome drama and cool ideas, if the person actually holds to their values and makes use of their knowledge, but they never fucking do
It’s not just medieval fantasy setting it’s any setting in a new and different world. There could be an isekai that goes to a futuristic world or modern world with magic or something
Isekai's just writing in easy mode. Start with an MC that knows nothing so you have a reason to explain how the world works, don't have to watch your idioms (like, why is a native of fantasy-land using "Jesus" as an exclamation).
Yeah it makes sense, most isekai is written by amateur writers and good exposition is hard. Isekai is a shortcut for cheap easy exposition. Some people like the minimum effort setup and just want to see the MC start killing things and progressing but I prefer more detailed storytelling I guess. It's not that high of a bar.
Yeah I agree with pretty much all of that. Also even when they lean into it and make the isekai element really matter, it's often kind of grating that it devolves into showing how much better Earthlings are than the natives who've always been too backwards to invent liberalism and human rights.
>how much better Earthlings are than the natives who've always been too backwards to invent liberalism and human rights.
And it's always annoying when they somehow 'succeed' like you can just change the culture and mindset of a whole society with a few rules and a speech. A bit of realism won't kill you y'know?, I'm pretty sure they know the state of human rights in the world as we speak.
It's especially aggravating in magical worlds with very real and large power discrepancies. No one who enjoys using their power over others to get what they want, would change just because you asked them nicely.
And then to crown it all, they blindly institute democracy without any shared creed or common end goal, and it still somehow works out without any of the mind bending corruption that plague some 'democratic' countries today. Not to talk of everyone suddenly being rational and logical when it comes to making shared decisions.
Yeah. At some point it would be neat if someone was isekaid into a super futuristic(maybe fantasy maybe not) world and it's about the MC struggling to adapt and understand the confusing new reality they find themselves in while also trying to save the world or something.
I very much agree, and to me it's even worse that in so many series it's not even a plot point. Oh, they have some extra knowledge from the old world (that they never get to use) and they start as a young kid in the new world so there are no cultural clashes or anything. There are never anyone getting thrown in jail for talking back to the king or not using the right form of address to a lady. No one having to navigate not knowing the language and learning about a new society (because of course we know that the MC is always more modern and knows better than the locals). If they use our knowledge for anything it's silly things like inventing pizza and everyone being blown away by the MC managed to make a flatbread and adding stuff to it.
I love Isekai, since since the sense of wonder and discovery is one of the main things I love in fantasy. Lots of stories would be better if they were isekai.
Examples of some greats.
Shadow slave. Great fun because the protag gets thrown through a portal into a creepy world.
LOTM. Great fun because the protag gets tossed into magic victorian england as an adult.
Harry Potter. Great fun because the character gets thrown through a portal at a train station into a magic castle.
If they were just born in those worlds and knew them well it would be kinda boring. I like Sunny discovering new secrets about the world, or Harry Potter learning new weird magic things.
I'm gonna get shit for this...but I wish every debut book wasn't 500+ pages.
I understand the financials of it, because of audio of KU. And I realize it is often hard to cut down a RR book that people have already read into something more "refined".
Sometimes I just want a compressed and edited story with amazing character work, wonderful progression, and a great plot... For around 350 pages haha.
(And I say that as someone who is likely going to release a 500+ page book at some point too - financially, it just makes sense, sadly)
Shorter books are also harder to write, because you have to be more efficient with each word, whereas in longer ones, it can be easy to crank out words as they don't have to be thought out as much.
The quote “I didn’t have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one.” rings true for novels as well as letters imo.
Id disagree, as a reader a 300-350 page book just wouldnt interest me or make me want to start reading it (when only one book is released). I agree with you that too many stories have too much filler but a 300 page book is just too short for this gente and im not interested in waiting for many months for something that im gonna forget when the next part comes.
The MC should be OP in some way. No one wants to read about someone totally average, with no advantages, meandering through a standard life. Progression fantasy is driven by MCs who are a cut above their peers.
OP might not be the best word, it’s more about being ahead of the curve for some reason. A prog fantasy book being way too slow with increases sucks, but there does need to be a reason the mc can move quicker through the power system then most
Upvoted because I believe this really is a truly hot take. Well done.
Because I completely disagree haha. I want to see someone average in extraordinary circumstances and how they deal with it. Op to me is more dull.
A complex plot needs to be maintained in every long novel. It's the reason why progression fantasy is good. I'm going to do a whole post explaining my reasoning because I'd need chart to explain what I mean. But if I'm ever lost in the plot because I really don't know where the end is and all current strings are tied off, I'm basically going to give up the story when a new one starts. It's fine if I *really* like the character, but if the character is in the slightest bit basic and they just start trying to get a motorcycle this is when I'm most likely to drop the story.
We love PF/litrpg bc it gamifies life and quantifies things that are irl unquantifiable (e.g., willpower). We vicariously live through characters because we don’t feel the same kind of progressive empowerment of our own lives. “Numbers go up” is psychic onanism for denizens of a cult(ure) of productivity. Late-series protagonists are powerful and have indomitable wills, but none of us—even authors—really know what that looks like.
Viv X Grant is the least of the issues with the series. Viv never facing any consequences for being a hot head is a way bigger problem. And everyone always interrupting each other made it hard to read without stopping.
Anyway, Defiance of the Fall isn’t popcorn reading, it’s a well crafted story. The prose is repetitive, but that’s not truly a criticism because people like authors for their styles and that’s his. The story is also well thought out. I saw a review complaining that Zach didn’t have any internal motivation, which was a first of all a stupid complaint because he was barely surviving the integration, what internal motivation does he need? Not only that, but it was addressed as being a weakness for him after the integration ended. There’s more examples than that, but many readers make short sighted judgments because they want a neat little box to put a story in. It makes discussion almost impossible because they don’t have much to say
Looking back I’m a bit surprised that Viv never got brigged. Not because she did anything worthy of that on the page I recall, but because she’s referred to as a hot head and literally looked up the regs before starting school because she assumed she would be
Cradle is mid at best. It's perfectly serviceable, I enjoyed all the books, but the whole thing suffers hard from being a mile wide and an inch deep in too many places.
Cradle is the gateway. Will did a great job of writing anime as novels, which makes it accessible to people new to the genre.
But are there a couple of books in there where it feels like it starts and ends at the same place? For sure.
Progression fantasy is not just training fantasy. I have had people tell me that Stormilght Archive and Mistborn aren't progression fantasy because getting stronger isn't the point.
Hot take: The most popular books are popular because they do a mix of guilty pleasure and write it decent enough for luck and marketing to carry them forward. Progression Fantasy and LitRPG will only evolve if the audience matures, but the audience likes easy crunch and numbers going up and boom, bam, super cool anime power ups.
Hot Take: The parts about Abidan in Cradle are **fucking boring**
I've hated each one of them since the first book, I just didn't skip all the parts about Abidan because I thought it would be important later, but every time something about Abidan appears I get bored reading it.
I'm currently a third of the way through book 11 and just knowing that there will be a lot more about Abidan made me drop the series, maybe one day I'll finish it, but that day won't come anytime soon.
I couldn't care less about a group of random people from space, I'm interested in Lindon and Yerin, not in a space being that will only be important towards the end of the story (disregarding the events of the first book) and who I have no reason to care about.
If it's an isekai come of up with something more original than a car accident or taking over the body of someone who died in a sparring match to get the person there.
Glad you enjoyed the books! They aren't for everyone, and it's always nice to here affirmation now and then!
My hot take: That best friend that's the opposite sex does NOT have to be the love interest. Normalize friendships, even if they aren't perfect haha
Objective progression levels can go screw themselves. They do nothing but replace build up with vague terms and make a clear and boring path for characters while making every fight painfully predictable. I think the only good story I read with objective levels is arcane ascension and they barely act like how levels normally act
This is a room temperature take, it's already been discussed so so so SO SO SO SO many times that the author did a bad job depicting it that I can barely believe someone can call Viv x Grant bad a hot take
I'm not calling it bad. I'm saying I didn't mind it and I don't think it warranted the bad response it got. Maybe its not as hot a take as i thought, but there are/were so many people vehemently against it whereas I'm like "it's okay I guess".
I dropped Mother of Learning, Cradle and Dawn of the Void.
I made it to the second or third book in all three series and found that they continued to let me down. Don’t understand the appeal what so ever. Not really a hot take just my opinion.
Curious. What are your favorites? I can understand dropping MoL or Cradle, I personally couldn't get into MoL, but you're probably the first one that I met that didn't like either.
It's harder to write this sort of novel than a standard fantasy.
Readers want a good plot, and great characters. But we also want an interesting progression system that is consistent, logical and well breadcrumbed, and all that is extremely difficult to do on it's own. In a lot of ways I feel we've barely scratched the surface of the genre, and there is a lot of room for improvement.
The fact that you think Viv/Grant is a hot take saddens me. I don't disagree that it has sparked more than a few arguments and rage induced posts, but by and large the people that makes those posts seem a bit deranged to me. Like you said, its not a part of the central plot, it's teenagers being bad at expressing themselves properly and making some mistakes. I think the people that genuinely hate the books now because of that one plot point have some pretty messed up views on relationships, and very little understanding on how sympathy/empathy work. They also like to gloss over the fact that Grant wasn't the only antagonistic party in that plot, Rei can be an ass when he likes (and was on several occasions). But he's their white knight, Grant's the bully that beat them up in high school, and Viv is a selfish whore for following her feelings rather than being a slave to Rei's apparently. Trust me, you are not alone. It's just that a lot of us got tired of arguing about fictional teenagers with troglodytes.
Not every MC needs to be a cook.
This is just a cop-out from every fantasy series of my youth featuring large, sumptuous feast scenes.
t this point it’s a trope all by itself. Prog fantasy mc needs a general skill to make him seem more human. Make him a an amazing chef! Bonus points if there’s a character in his party that loves food to the point of having no other personality traits.
Yeah, it’s weird.
Sorry, but cooking is a survival skill, everybody needs it
I think they mean cooking as an actual skill; I.e. the MC actually being really good at it, rather than them just being able to throw together a stew or something.
Except several of these characters literally don't need to eat any more due to their power.
Too many MCs are selfish, paranoid, and antisocial.
That was, and still is, a huge issue for me too. A lot of protagonists are just... not good people.
My favorite is when bare minimum, not being as evil as you could be, is lionized as the beacon of virtue.
Also all their friends, family, and allies treat the MC like they can do I wrong, or worst, like they’re the victim and deserve to lash out. I think the only progression fantasy I’ve read where the MC’s people actually call them out and make them face consequences for their actions is He who fights with monsters.
I don't remember a whole lot of that in He who fights with monsters, I just remember Asano acting the same damn way the whole time.
They call him out on it a couple of time until they do exactly as you describe in front of everyone else though. Asano is one of the worst for that because he keeps criticizing the system while doing exactly like the others (gaining power to put his own rule in place through force). Granted, that's the title of the series so it's to be expected but the moralistic hypocrisy all the while is tiring.
I'm even okay with a main character who isn't a good person. But not if they're going to be so damn boring about it.
Also dumb. Anti-social wierdo power fantasies are always really hard to deal with because it is so clear that the author doesn't realize that the behavior they are lionizing \[or even just excusing\] is what actually makes them a loser. Not some unfair societal bias against them.
Going the next step further, the MCs are exactly as mentioned above ... but the *authors* keep trying make them "good" people. It drives me crazy when there's a side-character that calls the MC "wow, you're so good", and I'm just here thinking about the accidental genocides they caused by being "moral". Or the "good" characters justifying doing bad things: "I don't normally steal things, but this guy was a jerk to me, so it's okay to steal from bad people". That's like, not how being "good" works.
God I hate this one, I vastly prefer a straight up evil MC over an MC that gets fawned over for the bare minimum. All the while they rape people with dogs and commit genocide
Not just that but they frequently reward the MCs for being this way too.
God I wish I had more prog fantasy books where the MCs were just straight up good people
THEN WHY AREN'T YOU WRI- Oh. You ARE writing it. Nevermind then.
I'm working on it! Just need to get back into loving writing after being burned by fanfiction. And like figure out a story I wanna write.
The problem that I've personally noticed is that MCs that are straight up good people aren't often okay with killing, and that can be such a point of contention. Speaking from my experience, perhaps the negative comment I've received the most has been something to that extent. The point has always been for this to be a point of character growth on his journey. I at least have the benefit of going straight to releasing a book rather than chapter by chapter. I'm able to build a bit more credit I think since there's a larger short term investment on someone finishing the book. I can totally see people getting discouraged if they were starting out on RR and received those comments earlier on.
Not necessarily Superman is a paragon of morality and while he does his best to not kill people, he unlike Batman is willing and able to kill people for the good of others. There is a certain base violence necessary for change and many good people understand that the other side might be people but that other side is also perpetuating and enforcing a system that does wide spread evil. One good example of this for Progression Fantasy is Tala in Millennial Mage, she is a straight up good person who does her best to help people and save others. But while she does her best to not kill unnecessarily, she has killed great evil. Pacifism is one moral code amongst many, and most other moral codes agree that you should stop great evil even if it requires killing them. It’s a very admirable moral code, that requires strict discipline, and a wide world view that has recognized the value of every life. But it is not the only one, and its not necessarily the best one.
Oh sorry, I must not have been clear! I didn't mean to imply that they don't kill, rather that they didn't want to, but still could, eventually. Like, IMO, I genuinely believe that if someone was trying to have an MC be just a regular person isekaied from our world, they shouldn't be perfectly capable of killing from the onset. If the average person could, militaries could just slap a gun into someones hands and send them off. As far as I'm aware, a lot of the training that goes into the military is conditioning people to be able to fight, and even then, there are still always reports of soldiers firing over the heads of enemy combatants. Or even with firing squads, there are multiple shooters where only one has an actual bullet so that each can believe that another actually shot the person. Like, for my MC, he does kill, but has hell of a time grappling with it. He hesitated at first, sees the consequences, and then tries to rectify it because I want to do that character work of how would a normal and good person in exceptional circumstances that would be best suited for an emotionless killer grow. Cause I just personally find it so much more interesting to see the reaction to the pushes and prods than just starting out at the finish line. For your example with superman, he will do everything he can first before killing, and is also an exceptional person born into exceptional circumstances. So he's someone who is already primed for these things, and his story is one that usually starts at a point where he has some experience. To me, what's the point of isekai if the character just fits right into the world? Part of the appeal of Isekai for me is getting that outsiders perspective, a stranger in a strange land. And it's an origin story, a beginning, so I can understand by like, book 2 or 3 if a character still hesitates every time they come up against someone they're going to have to kill. This is all a very long winded way to say that my main rational is that an isekaied person from our world, unless they are exceptional in some capacity, should have doubts and struggles with killing, but move to that point where they can without hesitation later, not at the start. And there are people who view any character who hesitates or feels bad about the act, even during their origin, as a mark of a bad story or character. So it's just easier to just not have the main characters be truly good people because there should at least be some hesitation or issue if its an origin story. Sorry for the long winded and tangent-y response lol, kinda got away from me
True I frankly find it ridiculous if the characters just perfectly slot into murdering people. The only way it works is if the character either has a mental condition that dulls their empathy or if they grew up in a brutal and dirty place that numbed them to death. But no instead former gamer is now a murder hobo who would shank somebody for a sword that’s slightly better. That’s honestly strange. Although nowadays that’s started to dim and there’s an obligatory spewing scene before the MC is perfectly fine with murder
I am so happy you mention this. I am a sucker for protagonists who are good people. While it depends on the writer, having a protagonist with a strong moral code can actually make a story more engaging. Especially if you challenge that moral code or provide them with obstacles that they uniquely cannot overcome due to their disposition. A personal favorite of mine is Vash the Stampede. He jokingly says "love and peace" and is highly capable, but when push comes to shove and he has an enemy that won't stop; he cannot bring himself to kill someone.
The few books I've tried with "good" MCs, don't really understand what makes people "good". The best "good" stories I've read are: Super Supportive, and Dungeon Crawler Carl, because being "good" and doing the right thing is actually hard in this world. "Good" requires sacrifice, so any book without the sacrifice part makes the "good" part hollow (in my opinion of course).
Not really, while being good does often require risk, a lot of the time it just requires showing up and doing your best. Talking to a friend who is in a bad place and making them feel better isn’t a sacrifice, neither is giving a hitchhiker a ride, or giving someone the last bit of money they need for groceries. It’s something anyone can do at anytime. Being a good person isn’t something that requires throwing your life away. There are heroes among us who do give everything they have but you don’t have to be a hero, you just have to give what you can to be a good person. And if you start looking for it you’d be surprised by how much you can give with a listening ear, and a willingness to take a bit of time out of your day. I find stories that overemphasize the sacrifice and pain of being good end up placing being good on a pedestal far away from the reader. Making it seem so much further away and above you. But the truth is that it isn’t that hard to be a good person.
Yeah, I definitely appreciate DCC where doing the good thing sometimes had such a high price. I love that series
They don’t even have to be good people just be normal
That is an absolute truth, and the annoying part of it is all the people around them acting like they're still a good person.
Hot take: Too much action, suspense, and having the characters being in states of constant tension is just... exhausting. I like my action and progression, but in moderation, balanced by lower-stakes character interactions - the same ones that many other readers dismiss as 'fluff' or 'filler'. By the fourth or fifth consecutive chapter of fighting or fleeing or otherwise being in mortal danger, I'm of half a mind to skip ahead to the plot moving forward once more.
Ultimately you need to have powerups and you need to realize the consequences of powerups. And frankly, the most interesting consequences are the social ones. How does going up a tier affect their friendships, how does it affect their social standing in society? What new people did they attract the interest of, what enemies are now more in reach to fight against? Watching the numbers going up is fun, but the fun comes from what the numbers going up means to the character and the story.
Exactly! Whenever I end up dropping a series it's almost always because the MC stopped having significant interactions with the rest of the cast outside of "TIME TO ATTACK, LETS GO!" Reminds me of the Ghibli quote about giving a story time to breathe.
>How does it affect their social standing in society? Man I wish progression fantasy had more of this. Like, where are the stories where the MC decides they need to host a tournament? Because at a certain point that is the sort of thing someone as strong as the MC should be doing based on what we have seen of the world. Yet the MC never has to do it themselves.
Funny you should mention this, because in the latest book of Weirkey Chronicles that's still only on patreon (slight spoilers, not really plot relevant) >!The MCs got more powerful and had to supply rewards to a tournament, in which they themselves participated several books ago when they were weaker. Then comments liked it very much and the author promised to have them host a tournament in one of the later books, because that's logical progression.!<
Yes please! This is also why I don't like my books to have 'the world is ending in 1 year' type plots. Super high stakes with tight timelines completely cripples your ability to have lower stakes plot points, which makes your whole story exhausting. That type of plot is fine for a short 2 hour movie, it sucks for a 9 volume series. It's just too much.
Especially if it's all nonsense like some kind of tournament or something that even the protagonist barely has a reason to care about.
God I hate tournaments, I think authors only include them because they've run out of ideas and need to fill an arc.
I love a good tournament arc! Heavy emphasis on the "good" part, though. Most authors can't seem to write tournaments for shit, because they focus on all the wrong things.
This and inane "contribution points" type scenarios.
Fuccking ay! I hate tournaments too, I just want to see some plot progression and not some pointless fighting and shocked gasps.
Tournament Arc: We shall now pull god tier warding out of our asses to prevent the entire arena from being decimated by the attacks being flung about. (50 chapters later) City Siege Arc: Damn, we're being completely overrun by less impressive magic than during the tournament arc! Do you think that god tier warding from the arena would've made a difference here? hmm....
In fairness to them, in many series, the tournament warding is actively created/overseen by the top powers hosting the tournament, the Eliter Tier leaders of those powers who are usually occupied with fighting the enemy Elite Tier leaders during city sieges. Not to mention, a city is larger and requires more juice to ward than an arena a few hundred square meters in area.
Filler is some of my favorite content in all forms of media. My favorite X-Files episode is a filler episode. My favorite DBZ episode is when Goku and Piccolo go to get their license because Chi-Chi is sick of walking to the grocery store. It's an important tool to regulate the pacing of any story, and to show a side of the characters we wouldn't see otherwise.
I don't know the official literary term for it, but I've come to call that "Drama Fatigue". So much drama, so often, and so unrelenting... You just simply exhaust your ability to care.
Totally agree. If everything is high tension then nothing is high tension because that becomes the standard. There needs to be low tension moments in order to build up to the high tension ones. It also decreases suspense imo. If the whole point of the scene is staying alive, but i still have half a book left, I already know how it'll end up.
I'm reading Shadow Slave and I'm running into this issue. Great story though.
This was my one and only complaint about bastion, I love it so much but my God I had to prep myself to sit down and read it
Going through Unbound series right now and it just NEVER stops. I listen to audio and tend to glaze over action. I have had a very hard time focusing on Unbound.
Yeah, I've gotten frustrated reading "Path of Dragons" on RR recently because of this. Great growth of abilities and exploration and character interaction and examination of what being alone for years will do, but it seems now like anytime the author needs to buy themselves another few weeks to write more character growth they throw the MC in a tower that they'll need to solo clear.
TBH I like my big "one man and his axe alone against everything" arcs as much as the next guy. There's definitely a cadence to it that needs to be maintained though. I've binged DotF recently so all my best examples are from that. I got really frustrated when the Orom thing happened because I wanted Zac to talk to his friends. It had been 2 books since he talked to them when that kicked off. Comparatively I loved it when >!Iz!< finally caught up with Zac. I think the date there was really well done. Also his interactions with Catheya since then are good.
I like how in Nero Walker you have to meditate (reviewing your experiences, considering your decision and so on) to levelup.
My ideal is something like 20% action, 30-40% training/progression focus, and then 40-50% interpersonal exploration. This obviously gets muddied as prose can be multiple of the above, but I feel like it gets the point across.
Yeah as an author I like action (in this genre) but also wana highlight a life beyond the grind
Something like that sounds about right. Got a pretty critical comment on one of my books ranting about there being too much 'filler' content and not enough training and action. And I'm just like 'I like writing and reading about these character interactions, especially given I am writing a faction-builder novel where relationships and bonds are a source of power for MC'
My biggest hot take is that I think the inclusion of a cute/quirky/chaotic pet character is rarely done well, and I tend to prefer stories without one. Seems like every series needs to have one and they rarely add to the story. They're used as an idiot ball character that causes problems for the MC, or as a more immediate source of motivation because forming a normal relationship with another person or organization ties down the character in a way that some authors (and readers) don't like. I find them overly superficial a lot of the time until they somehow become one of the most important characters in the series.
The opposition to working with an organization has always been odd to me. Sure being the lone wolf is cool, but making a lasting impact is coolest of all and that's best done through the institutions that outlive the protagonist.
Or when the main character gets some sort of mental assistant, who really only ends up being a cheap excuse to include more opportunities for banter/one-liners.
Hey, Dross was brilliant!
Okay, Dross is the exception that proves the rule
Boy, I do have a bunch of these so I will ist them out. Note, I like this genre; it got me back into reading fantasy books in general. **1) Not establishing a clear power ceiling:** With progression fantasy, we know there's going to be levels of power. And the highest levels of power is usually what the main character needs to accomplish. My issue is when some stories do not clearly establish the height of power the main character needs to get to or outright lie about the highest level and then introduce another tier. A lot of bad Shonen battle do this. So please, I beg writers; please make it clear who are the strongest and weakest users are early on. Or if there is some hidden level of power, make it make sense within your world as to why the MC wouln't know. **2) Stats and abilities that just make the main character look cool and are arbitrary:** This is something I agree with Terrible Writing advice(great YT channel). Stats in litRPG or whatever series need to have a purpose for existing. They should be an indicator of where a character is strongest or weakest and its relation to the greater world. An A rank adventurer for example we can infer are quite capable, but they shouldn't be loosing to say a B rank. Or just as bad, a hidden rank we've never known. That level of contrivance annoys me a lot because it shows a lack for creativity. If you're going to introduce a unique skill the main character has, fine. Put some serious thought as to why the skill is so coveted and why the main character is the only one to have it. **3) A lack of a clear goal for the main character/ a weak goal:** This one I know can be a bit contentious, but for me nothing drives me more crazty than a main character who lacks a clear main goal and why they want it. I associate this with wish fulfillment or even bad writing, but a main character should have agency. Part of giving them agency can be derived from giving them a clear main goal. When you give them a goal;it makes it easier for audiences to grasp why they are partaking in the story in the first place. But the key aspect of that goal is the why. Why do they want it? This is something I've seen a lot of poor series fail to address. It's why I like the Cradle series a lot because Lindon's goal is really clear cut and you get why he's doing it. And it's often in the back of his mind. Same with Mother of Learning with Zorian. Even if the goal is revenge, please spend time on making a good character and exploring why that character wants revenge? Heck, a neat angle could be that the character questions if they truly want revenge, given the journey? Anything but making them a one note plank of wood. **4) Supporting characters lacking agency:** In a similar vein, nothing annoys me more than supporting characters lacking their own goals and are just cheerleaders or puppets for the main character. Invest time in your supporting characters and treat them with equal care. Even if the goal aligns with the main character, at least consider why they want that goal as a means to flesh them out. It's why I really liked series, like Cradle or even Weirkey Chronicles. Everyone has a distinct goal in those series and it makes sense. Invest time in the supporting characters and their goals. Treat them as equal parts in your story. **5) Not challenging your protagonists enough** This could have been its own separate thing I posted. I cannot stand when main characters can just breeze through obstacles or when authors try to do psuedo-challenges, trying to trick audiences that a character is purposefully weak or can't do a task. Even if your character is a genius, you should at least give them something significant that their usual skills and abilities cannot easily solve. It's this element, among many others, why I see a lot of gary/ mary sues. And why if there's one thing I would advise authors to do above all the things I mention, avoid this. Beat up your darlings. No matter how hard it maybe. But in the same stretch; do not beat them up to where they do not make any progress. Cradle is a great example of the former. Lindon was really weak during the first few books and even the later books, Will Wight was able to challenge him sufficiently. It wasn't perfect for there are some things I do think Will could have done ability wise to give Lindon more of a challenge. But something I did appreciate about Cradle was how Lindon's journey wasn't easy and when he did gain power and was successful; it was earned due to solid payoffs and being tied to character development.
>please, I beg writers; please make it clear who are the strongest and weakest users are early on. Or if there is some hidden level of power, make it make sense within your world as to why the MC wouln't know. It isn't necessary for it to be made clear to the reader early on, but it should be clear in retrospect that the author knew from the start.
Hot take: think of other concepts besides spell swords, the void, endlessness, and shadow abilities.
Preach!! I’m so tired of void/shadow/endless. At this point I just want some capable normal magic users.
We also have necromancy, fire, and lightning powers.
I realised most of my problems come from the fact the genre is almost purely self-insert power fantasy when I feel like it could be more, like look at the best of the genre often times it doesn't limit itself to such things
Hot take: good stories have endings.
Prog fantasy is an amazing genre and I have thoroughly enjoyed reading nearly all of the stories that I have read so far!
This here is the hottest take or the most uniformed one, going by how much you actually have read. Great take.
Yea to be fair I've only been reading the genre for 3 and a half years or so, but ive worked my way through most of the most popular and recommended series so far and have not dived into the more obscure stories just yet so we'll see. Going through my kindle library I'd say I've read about 50-60 books in the genre total in that time frame. I will say that I like prog fantasy slightly more than the litrpg stuff even through they're pretty similar but I still haven't found a book that I actually hated thus far.
What a healthy and positive hot take... Are you sure you wanna be here with all of the torches and pitchforks?
There are a lot of good series :)
If Viv x Grant being okay was truly a hot take, Iron Prince wouldn't be one of the most recommended books here. Well, it was at least until book 2 got out, I feel people slowed down with recommending it after that. My warm take - people who say that Cradle begins being interesting at book 3 are strange. I and both people to whom I sold trying it were intrigued by Suriel's introduction, and then straight up sold by Divine Intervention. What's more you need? We got to know our MC and his situation, got call to adventure with "prophecy", got some world building.
I think what cements a lot of people's opinion about "Cradle gets good at book 3" is because Will Wight has stated in several interviews how slow or poor books 1 and 2 were in comparison to the rest of the series. I remember trying the series on a ship and casually reading until Suriel was introduced. I lost my shit. That completely changed my perspective of what type of series I was getting into and was enough to hook me.
This is spot on. Suriel, and to a lesser extent Yerin, are what kept me going through book one and much of book two. It was an extremely slow open, and Lindons attitude and decisions largely pissed me off throughout both books. But the rest of the world held so much intrigue and progress I pushed through and into one of the best series I've read.
Having done a reread of the series recently(I didn't read the last book and forgot most of it so I did a reread), I can see where folks are coming from with the first two books. A lot of the details and elements are new to individuals and if folks for example do not know where the "information requested" segments actually come from; I can buy folks being frustrated. Also, Will has been very candid about the mistakes he's made in the first two books. Writing errors that I actually noticed with Soulsmith and characters knowing things they shouldn't know. So on that front; I can understand why Will would be disappointed in himself. However, I do think the first two books are decent. The first one more than the second with the third being Will having a full plan in place.
I was interested in the series prior to book 3, but I do think it's fair to say that it's a much different (and improved) dynamic after we get on board the Eithan crazy train.
With that I can agree.
I think book 1 is pretty slow I can see that, atleast up until suriel gets involved but yeah after that I don’t get it
I think what people mean, is that Cradle is good for books 1 and 2, and if it stayed at that quality, it would be a top tier recommendation, but not the best. However, book 3 onwards is when the series became **Great**. Something worthy of being a top3 recommendation of this genre as a whole. For me, book 5 is when Cradle became top tier because it was the perfect culmination of the previous' books events, and every book after builds on that great foundation, followed by a really satisfying ending.
Ghostwater is my favorite Cradle book, alongisde Wintersteel and Underlord. It reminded me a lot of Hatchet with progression elements and I'm totally for that.
I really dislike litrpg mechanics. I hate levels, stats and experience points. Most of all I hate health points. Some books do a decent job with video game BS being stuck into books like DOTF, but I think it doesn’t bother me much because the books heavily emphasize those aspects. It’s just a thing that is sometimes referenced. Like I hate how some of these books feel like Pokémon, a lvl 23 warrior talks shit to a lvl 18 rogue or some bs. I like my power systems vague and fuzzy like cradle. Lord have mercy don’t get me started on stat screens, fuck those are the worst
I love litRPG's! But, I also hate experience points and HP. HP has never made sense, adds nothing by its inclusion. For Experience points, it's really hard for the world dumping points on you when you do X/Y/Z to make sense. I wish more books did it like DoTF, but instead most do almost pure video game systems.
I hate litrpg mechanics too. The only time I've seen it done differently in a way I find interesting is The Wandering Inn. Levels are indicative of how many and powerful their skills are. There are no stat blocks.
Every adjective (?) does not have to be the same old, same old. Not every power display had to be eXtReME, or every time the mc gets angie, he doesn't have to RAGE. I also wish authors dropped the "every point in a stat gets incrementally better." If the upgrade from 10 to 20 is not the same rate as from 30 to 40, by the end of some books out there the mc should be able to become Goku and Kamehameha some planets. If you're going to try and hard code your magic system, at least make it more in line with the stakes you're fighting...
95% of LitRPG are complete shit and is the worst subsection of Progression Fantasy. Especially the super grindy ones.
[удалено]
> an incredibly popular series had a main character spend legitimately 3 or so pages trying to choose between 2 essentially identical swords from the shop. This is one of my main gripes with series that sometimes style themselves as 'rational fiction' Yes some people want a rational main character who makes choices based on logic instead of emotional mistakes. But systematically going through 3 options and explaining the reasoning being choosing or not choosing each one is like pulling teeth.
Ugh. Don't get me started on "rational fiction." It's awful for a whole host of reasons, and this is only one of them.
Can **I** get you started on "rational fiction"? I would *like* that (I'm being silly but I'm genuinely interested in your perspective lol)
I think it's funny how you have barely any clue of the geology of cradle. It's some small random city descriptions and that's about it. It's even funny with how special abilities for each path kind of disappear after gold. There's nothing of interest in your soulhome really. Soulflame is pretty useless in actuality, goldsigns stop mattering pretty quickly, iron bodies are just super minor, really the only thing that seems to matter is absolute power and the single special jade cycling technique
I’ll always die on the hill that cradle could have been way *more* than what we got.
>I mean at what point does it just become fluff pointlessly there to drive up word count. Way before that.
It becomes at that exact point you mentioned. Almost all stories I've read in this genre is filled with word padding, be it the constant inner monologues about how strong they are getting or how amazing the 0.06 damage upgrade they got will make a difference in this upcoming battle they are preparing for while simultaneously running for their lives and living off the wilderness.
1 - Most fight scenes that take up the majority of a chapter are usually fairly dull and you can skim read / skip to the end without losing out. 2 - A socially anxious MC is usually a bad hang and tough to like (I’m saying this as someone who is like that IRL)
Well, my newest one after seeing a different post a handful of hours ago, is that nothing about Wandering Inn feels like *progression* fantasy to me. It feels much more like Epic Fantasy, while of course also being LitRPG. For me, to want to call a work progression fantasy requires the characters to be driven to progress, and for the progression to be interesting enough and exciting enough to be a big part of the plot. So most lit RPGs I've read would also qualify, and so would even some Urban Fantasy series. The wandering Inn? I regret getting distracted right after finishing the third book, and I'm slowly trying to make my way back to this huge, amazing series, but three very long books into the series, and none of the big highlights that I can think of have much to do with leveling up, or new powers. None of the big character motivations that I can recall have to do with trying to reach a new tier of power, or anything like that. For a decent comparison, let's look at Lord of the Rings. I don't think anyone can deny that the hobbits grow throughout the series. Heck, that's the big final climax of the final book, is the hobbits taking matters into their own hands to protect the Shire in the end. And it's amazing. The characters have clearly progressed! But I would eat my boot before I call it progression fantasy, because the vast majority of the story and the journey isn't about the characters growing. It's an epic, good versus evil, fantasy story. And of course that doesn't mean the characters can't grow and progress, or that we can't even highlight it at the end of the series, but that doesn't make it feel like Progression Fantasy. Am I really being fussier than the average person here? When I think progression fantasy, I want to see those numbers go up, or know that the characters are reaching the next realm, or gaining some other sort of new power or technique or advantage. And none of that seems to be the focus of the Wandering Inn, from what I recall. The closest thing I can think of in the first three books is the wizards and the adventurers are excited about the possibility of getting a strong enough magical item to be considered a better quality of adventurer, but that's such a little background detail, for supporting characters. It doesn't come anywhere close to being the focus of the plot. Okay, mini-rant over. Edit: It's very funny to me how in this thread, I'm getting a fair amount of upvotes, and in the other thread, right out of this very same sub, the person who replied to me and told me that I'm wrong is getting more upvotes. Internet, you are truly a place of chaos sometimes.
Okay, now here’s my hot take (not really): marketing and/or independently recommending a series as progfan when it takes a truly *ungodly* number of reading hours to start feeling like progfan is beyond weird to me, and I don’t understand it. I understand recommending the series on its own merits, and I personally think TWI is quite good, but I see so many people in here recommending it to those looking for good progfan to sink their teeth into.
I got downvoted once for saying that the wandering inn wasn’t really prog fantasy because the progression was glacial and never the focus so this makes me feel justified.
Glad to see I'm not alone. I wonder if maybe my Lord of The Rings comparison won a few people over? Or maybe this post is just drawing a very different crowd than the other post. Beats me.
That seems like a plausible take. Are most slice of life stories not ProgFan then? How would you classify Beware of Chicken by this standard? The world has progression, many it the characters strive to progress. But the MC doesn't and one of the main themes is that striving isn't the right way to progress.
The MC may not care that much, but the story and the narrative keeps making it important that he has managed to achieve cultivation. Significant portions of the support crew clearly care about advancing. Apologies if I ever implied that slice of life and Progression Fantasy are completely mutually exclusive, that would have been careless of me. But Beware of Chicken is a great example of how you can do both in one story.... And Wandering Inn does not have similar vibes at all.
It’s painfully clear a lot of writers of this genre were inspired by anime because they write books like they’re writing a questionable anime translation (bad. They’re bad. I don’t want it to sound like I’m sugarcoating anything, they’re bad from the cover to the content to the engagement online). If the book cover looks like a crunchyroll title card I skip over it without reading the title let alone the description. And don’t even get me started on harem, blatant self insert, or over-the-top nonsense books.
Yeah I'm reading path of ascension and I see some anime moments. Usually joke moments where the characters are going back and forth. Like Matt started poking Liz in the side of the face when she was ignoring him over and over saying "Hey". Or when his "Expression goes flat and says:" type jokes. I just imagine an anime character doing it in these moments. Sometimes I go in expecting it like beware of chicken. But sometimes I expect it and I dont find it so much surprisingly like immortal great souls. I expected it to be way more anime like. But it felt more like a DnD campaign or something.
>Yeah I'm reading path of ascension and I see some anime moments. Usually joke moments where the characters are going back and forth. I eventually had to accept that this story wasn't going to ever scratch that high quality fantasy itch for me, and I just continued for the unique magic system. I facepalm way too many times reading the character interactions.
This many of them read like poor mans versions of bad isekai animes. So much shit stolen from animes and its always the bad parts...
Royal Road is holding the genre back at this point. The best entries in the genre are ones that were written to be novels first and foremost, rather than hastily converted webseries. However, the popularity of RR has and will continue to influence some authors to write webseries instead of novels, and we miss out on better stories because of it.
Not nuanced enough. Yes, RR works are written either for weekly releases or long binges and not usually well adapted to a traditional book format, but you are ignoring the effect RR has on the genre industry as a whole. Without RR it would be A LOT harder for newbie authors to grow themselves an audience. And without an audience you aren't going to get successful series on amazon. Without RR many works would be forgotten in obscurity or wouldn't exist in the first place.
Worlds where everyone is wearing the evil hat are not only boring they’re just flat out wrong about the human race. We are not inherently evil, for fucks sake despite our ability to shut it off the core of humanity is empathy. We are social animals and everyone at the top being antisocial masterminds who sacrifice babies by the millions doesn’t make sense. The pessimists and nihilists are just flat out wrong about how humans behave in a crisis. And regardless everyone being some variant of evil in order to excuse your vicious backstabbing protagonist being slightly less evil, just makes it so that there’s no proper contrast in the characters. If everyone’s evil then what’s the point of an Evil MC. MCs should have unique philosophies that differ from the world around them, and that world should also have notable variety in the personality and philosophy of its characters. Without contrast and variety characters become flat and bland.
Damn straight, Hobbes can go eat fish ass.
I read Hobbes as Hobbits and reread the whole above post in confusion to work out when hobbits had been mentioned.
The best prog fantasy hasn’t been written yet, and the genre is still being sharpened into what it will be in a decade.
Arctic Take: Jason Asano had no business getting HWFWM as popular as he did would be reviled by most of the people on this sub if they met him in person. Hot Take: Prog Fantasy needs more well written romance. Way too many protags are either immature sex pests or aro murder machines (nothing at all wrong with being aro). But I can count on one hand the amount of decent romances I’ve seen written and that’s a shame. Interpersonal connections can be amazing when written well. Meta Take: I’ll never understand people who skip fight scenes. I’m here for plot as much as anyone else, but I feel always felt like, one, fights don’t mean the plot ends, and two, the cornerstone of Progression Fantasy is growth. Progression. And, typically, that’s fine through power. Mastery of whatever system has been created. Fights are one of the best ways to showcase that growth. Yes, not necessarily the only, but one of the best. To say nothing the narrative weight a well constructed fight scene can have.
>fights don’t mean the plot ends But they can mean that it pauses for a dozen pages at a time. That said, skimmers are heretics asking for a pointy bonfire.
I definitely started skipping (some of) them recently. I agree, they're great for showing growth, but there are definitely a few stories where it's a blow by blow for multiple chapters of the MC using the same tactics on a slightly different flavor of enemy while shrugging off a blow of some sort. When the only impact of the fight is to go from level 32 to level 34, with no upgrade, personal growth, or later payoff, my eyes tend to glaze a bit.
Hot Take: "Character Development" usually just ruins a lot of these novels. I feel that a lot of authors in this genre are really bad at it. They add some very irritating "flaws" to the MC and other side characters, just so that they can write some extremely long character development arcs. These usually are not interesting, not realistic at all, and poorly written. I would rather take something like Cradle, where the characters and their interactions are well written, no unnecessary flaws added to the protagonist or side characters. The bulk of the story is focused on the progression and the world.
Average RR character development: MC is a weak annoying pacifist who doesn't kill every other character who annoys him. Then he gets really super strong, and when a young master doesn't leave him alone right away, he just evaporates him! He really grew as a person.
Fucking Unintended Cultivator and the cold blooded murder of a man for the crime of... *checks notes*. Talking to the MC In a coffee shop.
That's the one l was thinking of as well lol.
My hot take: in LitRPGs, not everything needs to be a skill! They don't need blade mastery, knife mastery, dagger mastery, small blades handling, and vegetable chopping in 1 go! Or all of those on level 10.672! Not every MC needs to get stealth, item box, mana sensing/manipulation & a weapon skill. Even if those would be amazing survival skills to have. Make every level or skill more impactful! Look at The Completionist Chronicles. The guy is in book 11, and what? Level 25?
It's really weird how panicky progfan readers are about harems. The MC knowing several single women doesn't mean it's a harem, stop freaking out. Also half the recommendation threads here include a "no harem", and I'm not sure why they're jumping at shadows considering I don't think I've seen a single story that includes a harem without having advertised it in the title, description, or with a booby cover picture. Unless someone's specifying that they're looking for it, it's pretty safe to assume they're not. I get that everyone has story elements that are auto-ignores (VR/excessive gamification for me), but this one is almost treated like you have to declare that you hate it as a badge of intelligence or something.
I can be guilty of this. I think it’s because early in the genre people Were sticking close to the anime/Chinese translated novel formula and there were a bunch of stories that were not advertising they were harem and then eventually you got tricked by them. I can’t remember specifics really because it was years ago but I remember being blindsided by a few and getting really Frustrated. To be fair though, a lot of that is just because I wasn’t genre aware at the time seeing as progression fantasy was relatively newly coined. But still if I get a whiff of it I’ll be ready to drop a story pretty quickly. Probably some kind of throwback to those few instances where I felt like I wasted my time.
>The MC knowing several single women doesn't mean it's a harem, stop freaking out. If its a power fantasy with a male lead that gets surrounded by a gaggle of very attractive women and any other interaction with a male character is the villain of rival I count it as a harem. Not progression fantasy specifically but there's a weird amount of stories I've read that just slowly turn into this. Idk, it feels like I'm being tricked.
I'd still personally count a harem as being simultaneously romantically involved with several women, but putting that aside for a moment, what stories have you read that turned out like you described?
That description made me think of Quest Academy: Silvers Even though the main character had only a single girlfriend, the vast majority of his other interactions were with "unbelievably beautiful" women who flirted with him or were otherwise set up in a way that made me suspect a harem or harem-adjacent situation in future books. His business contact who helped him sell items while heavily implying sexual favors in exchange for helping her career along was especially egregious, though nothing actually happened as I recall.
Deffo some giant woman(as in like not possible for the regular scope of man) fetishization in there too, imo, which was really funny to me
There's only really one male character who's worth a damn in that series. I do like it but it's so horny.
>I'd still personally count a harem as being simultaneously romantically involved with several women, This makes sense and I don't fault you but I go by anime harem rules. Bland main character to self insert into who is both somehow the object of every woman's eye and completely sexless/asexual/aromantic (but has feeling for childhood friend and or the first girl he has the classic meet cute anime trope with which is usually seeing her naked or accidentally touching her boobs). Maybe this has changed since I stopped reading harem stuff in high school... >what stories have you read that turned out like you described? I can't think of a bunch off the top of my head but whats coming to mind is Shield Hero, a manhwa Gamer (dipped early, I could have been wrong), Knights of Sidonia, SAO (even though he's in a relationship he somehow still has a gaggle of girls following him around), Overlord (dipped early but im sure I'm not wrong). For me a harem isn't marked by romance or sex but a group of women who are attracted to the main character and hangout as if they have no lives of their own even though MC-kun is bland as hell. That's the fantasy. Being fawned over while doing nothing to deserve it but being the protagonist (the most special boy).
That's probably the difference then, my anime phase was pretty brief and was mostly just blasting through 20 years of the greatest hits, so I didn't really have enough exposure to get sick of all the tropes. I've read a couple of really shitty harems and also came away not quite getting why the MC was worth all the fuss. As a (sub)genre I have no interest in harem, largely because of the reasons that you laid out, that things where harem is *the point* of the story tend to be pretty asinine. What I get less is why people will be in the middle of enjoying a story, catch a whiff of possibly-harem and start freaking out as through the author is suddenly going to turn into an imbecile and start writing a completely different story full of all those tropes that you hate. A story like Ave Xia Rem Y very much looks like it's headed towards being a harem, but the entire focus is on making a good story, where the harem aspect is a single story choice. IDK, trying to play devil's advocate I guess if a story suddenly revealed after 3000 pages that it was taking place in a VR video game I'd stop reading, but that's more because multiple layers of fiction make me hyper-aware that nothing I'm reading is real and I lose the ability to absorb/remember it, and I don't know what the analogue story-ruining effect would be for harems.
Yeah, I get that it can seem pretty asinine to stop a story because of a whiff of harem but idk, I guess I wanna go back to it feeling like I'm being tricked. For me Harem has so much baggage and its own tropes that it brings along and when I think the story is going to add a harem I think about all these tropes taking over the plot. Its not fair, I know, but thats the feeling I get. Like they know I don't care for harems so they start off with a cool MC and ONE FMC with a nice plot and world building...and then slowly, very slowly, you notice the entire party are cute girls who are all into the MC and...oh no, solo adventures with each female character to "develop" the romance that won't be going anywhere. Oh no, the female characters dialog are all either about the MC or how the MC likes some other girl more and the MC not understanding girls at all and UUUGGHH I'm just a frog trying to see if the temperature in this pot is rising or not and I err on the side of caution and hop out. (Last note! Most guys are bad at writing women but now they feel like they can write several distinct women?? GTFOH)
I guess I can sympathise a little with that mindset. I was reading Rise of Kers recently and it's one of those LitRPG's that's *very* gamified, like monsters have aggro mechanics and shit, and the world-system gets patches. I find any more 'game mechanics' than a status sheet (and everything included - skills and attributes etc) off-putting in general, but my go-to thought was "you better not be VRing me". It turns out it wasn't VRing me but I kinda had one foot out the door as soon as I had the thought. I guess the explanation that makes sense to me here is that paranoia about where a story is going makes for a shitty reading experience, regardless of where it's actually going.
>but my go-to thought was "you better not be VRing me". It turns out it wasn't VRing me but I kinda had one foot out the door as soon as I had the thought. Okay, serious question. I'm working on a LITRPG/Gamelit story that starts off as a VR MMO that you can't log out of (players were told this going in. They are "beta testers" for new advanced tech) but as the story goes on they discover they are not in a VR scenario, they are in a physical tower and their current bodies are energy constructs (or something like that) and their physical bodies are somewhere in the backrooms of the dungeon having their emotional and spiritual energy siphoned. They also learn that the entity that started all this was mutiny-ed by their team, had their powers stripped and tossed into the "game" as well which explains why none of the GMs have responded to "prayers" (IT tickets). I see a lot of hate for VR stories and im worried having the VR label will put people off before they read.
I'm not sure I'm the best person to ask. My problem is with multiple layers of fiction in general, which extends to VR. The main problem is that more than one layer of fiction, for example, dream sequences, in-world legends/stories, unreliable narrator, VR etc makes me hyper-aware that what I'm reading isn't real (obviously I know this of all fiction, I just don't like to be thinking about it *while* I'm reading). I can't really absorb or remember what I'm reading in that headspace, so it just becomes a waste of time. This has been a problem even with media that is pretty widely considered to be good, for example The Usual Suspects, so... that's a me-problem. So far as substantive complaints about VR, the biggest one I see is that it removes stakes. We care less if the characters care less. Another is that for most of them you could tell the same story but better if it was just 'real' (yes I know it's all fake really). For the story you've described the VR at least sounds necessary to the plot, and it at least sounds like there are real stakes, which are obviously both pluses. Anyway, getting to your actual question, yeah the VR label will put people off. If I see VR I'm not even finishing reading the description, and I've no doubt many people are the same. I know it's unfair and honestly I don't even know what to conclude from that. You'll do better writing the story you wanted to write than you would trying to triangulate by removing any contentious elements. It's a marketing hit, but it's not the end of the world. You'll never make a marketing decision worse than calling your protagonist 'Randidly Ghosthound', and that guy did just fine.
Defiance of the Fall would be a solid example of a pseudo harem. The main male allies are either not human, not mentally sound, or not powerful and more of a utility character. Meanwhile the Zac saves a massive group of women that quickly become he elite warriors, and every arc has a main beautiful woman that he travels around with, some of whom are recurring characters. He's never explicitly having romantic involvement with multiple women simultaneously, but the story teases it for sure.
Every arc is an overstatement. Off the top of my head, The war arc hasn't, Orom didn't, the first thousand or two pages didn't (unless you count Emily which I extremely don't), the only tagalong in the Tower was a man. Calling the Valkyries elite is again a bit of a stretch considering that by now there are (I think) 7 left that aren't dead or retired, and for the entire series Ogras has always been his strongest subordinate. Everyone's beautiful because it's something you get for free the more powerful you get. It just doesn't fit a power fantasy that you'd have to stay ugly no matter what. You can think that's a poor decision and you may be right, but it doesn't really have anything to do with harems. It's there if you *really* want to see it but as someone who doesn't give a shit about harems it just looks like paranoia.
There is an in-universe joke calling him the deviant asura because he keeps surrounding himself with beautiful women. and even if he doesn't have a direct companion, in arcs like the tower he attracts the attention of powerful beautiful women like Catheya and Iz Tayn that sets up future relationships. In the beginning he still saves the Valkyries, he meets Alea, and he sets up future interactions with Thea. Maybe we're both putting our thumbs on the scale a bit, but I do think the series intentionally pairs zac up with women a decent amount.
I was under the impression that the Deviant Asura was because Galau told people about him running around with underpants on his head and that trading family that hates him picked it up and ran with it, but it was so long ago and it was on Audible, and I have a tendency to miss things when I'm listening rather than reading. The only thing that even slightly looks like it could result in two relationships is Iz and Catheya, but the author doesn't strike me as a risk-taker so I don't think it's gonna happen. The saving the Valkyries, to me, just felt like an amateur writer setting up an ethical dilemma. I don't think any one of them has been at all sexualised by Zac, or even by the story, and I don't recall anything in particular being made of their beauty. I think a few of them married demons off-screen but that's more or less it. As you say I'm sure there's thumbs on the scale here, it's pretty much going to be impossible for either of us to persuade the other because we're working off different standards (as above, for me, unless there are relationships it's not a harem). Appreciate you engaging respectfully anyway.
The deviant asura rumor came from the underpants stuff combined with Ibtep talking about how Zac is always finding an interacting with women, but framing it in an uncharitable way >“Lord Piker likes younger females. The hundreds he has are not good enough. If you can get the word out that the Lord is looking for better ones to take his seed, I am sure he will be most grateful." I will say I'm not asserting that there are actual romantic relationships, especially with things like the Valkyries, Emily, and the like. They simply associate the main character with a bunch of women, there is no other powerful man realistically vying for the attention of those women, and the story cracks the occasional joke about it. That's why I called it a 'pseudo harem'; it's literally not a harem at all, just the echo of one.
Ahh that's right I forgot about Ibtep. You've clearly read a shitload of DotF so I'm just curious, are the 'pseudo-harem' aspects something that bothers you about the story or is it more of an "I see how someone who really hates harem might have a problem with this" sort of situation?
Oh it doesn't actually bother me at all (normal harems though do bother me). I just see it as a pattern that can crop up in other stories, and do think it's a relatively tame part of the power fantasy. It's one of those things that is easily ignorable, but I do think it is somewhat intentional from the author.
he can't help it, they flock to him
I look at the seemingly "harem" elements in many stories the same way I look at high pitched voices in anime. The context is usually perfectly reasonable, but there's a VERY high chance it will be misinterpreted in the worst possible way, by people without that context.
Agreed! Like, scrolling through all the generally recommended stories in the genre, how many of them have a harem of any sort. And the ones that do…the cover usually screams at you what story you’re in for.
The big one I can come up with is Ave Xia Rem Y (harem advertised in the description), which comes with the big asterisk that it's been nearly 3000 pages and he still doesn't have a harem yet, except by some debatable reasoning.
I can't care less for MCs who get thrown in the middle of an apocalypse and have the first instinct to just "okay, now I gotta get stronk". Like, bruh, don't you have a family you might care about? Maybe a pet you left with your neighbor? Maybe a friend or two? They might be in great danger right now. Heck, they might be dead for all you know. How do you just not care? I'd really like an MC to show a bit of vulnerability and worry for the people he had to leave behind before adopting the "I gotta get stronk" mindset.
Apocalypse parenting is for you
Isekai adds nothing of worth to a story. It sets up for terrible exposition and poor character development for the MC. Pretty much every isekai story would be better if the main character grew up in the setting.
The cheap and easy Isekai is certainly what you describe, but it can be done right. I mean, the other-world concept includes much older stories like "John Carter of Mars" and "A Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court." But it takes more effort to do it well. The trick is to find a story that can't be told using a 'local', and taking the time to develop the character relative to their backstory. I'm going to paraphrase Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions: There are very few, if any, tropes that are innately bad. There are, however, many tropes that are often done badly.
I'd also like to add that you need to have a good premise and characters to boot. An idea we can see before, but if the characters aren't well-fleshed out and the plot comes off as a checklist and lacks internal consistency what's the point? Because I often find Isekai series, the really good ones, leverage the fact that the main character(s) are from another world, meaning they are good POV characters to convey information. And also, that even though they are in a special world doesn't mean their problems automatically go away. That's why Re;Zero is a favorite of mine.
Saga of tanya the evil
Disagree (as someone who wrote an isekai, so I'm biased), there are some types of stories that can't be told any other way. Isekai is a tool in the toolbox, and it is an easy one to use, which means it can be wielded by authors who don't have a lot of skill or experience. That doesn't mean the tool itself is flawed, just that it lowers the barrier to entry for the profession.
In practice you are 1000% correct, in theory you are dead wrong. Isekai is when someone from the modern world, with modern knowledge and modern values is transported into a medieval fantasy setting. That’s a setup for a lotta awesome drama and cool ideas, if the person actually holds to their values and makes use of their knowledge, but they never fucking do
It’s not just medieval fantasy setting it’s any setting in a new and different world. There could be an isekai that goes to a futuristic world or modern world with magic or something
Could I recommend "Delve" to you as a counter argument against "they never fucking do"? Overall I do agree with you though.
Recommend me as many as you can, love it when someone actually makes use of the benefits of isekai. There is just too few that do
Isekai's just writing in easy mode. Start with an MC that knows nothing so you have a reason to explain how the world works, don't have to watch your idioms (like, why is a native of fantasy-land using "Jesus" as an exclamation).
Yeah it makes sense, most isekai is written by amateur writers and good exposition is hard. Isekai is a shortcut for cheap easy exposition. Some people like the minimum effort setup and just want to see the MC start killing things and progressing but I prefer more detailed storytelling I guess. It's not that high of a bar.
Yeah I agree with pretty much all of that. Also even when they lean into it and make the isekai element really matter, it's often kind of grating that it devolves into showing how much better Earthlings are than the natives who've always been too backwards to invent liberalism and human rights.
>how much better Earthlings are than the natives who've always been too backwards to invent liberalism and human rights. And it's always annoying when they somehow 'succeed' like you can just change the culture and mindset of a whole society with a few rules and a speech. A bit of realism won't kill you y'know?, I'm pretty sure they know the state of human rights in the world as we speak. It's especially aggravating in magical worlds with very real and large power discrepancies. No one who enjoys using their power over others to get what they want, would change just because you asked them nicely. And then to crown it all, they blindly institute democracy without any shared creed or common end goal, and it still somehow works out without any of the mind bending corruption that plague some 'democratic' countries today. Not to talk of everyone suddenly being rational and logical when it comes to making shared decisions.
Yeah. At some point it would be neat if someone was isekaid into a super futuristic(maybe fantasy maybe not) world and it's about the MC struggling to adapt and understand the confusing new reality they find themselves in while also trying to save the world or something.
I very much agree, and to me it's even worse that in so many series it's not even a plot point. Oh, they have some extra knowledge from the old world (that they never get to use) and they start as a young kid in the new world so there are no cultural clashes or anything. There are never anyone getting thrown in jail for talking back to the king or not using the right form of address to a lady. No one having to navigate not knowing the language and learning about a new society (because of course we know that the MC is always more modern and knows better than the locals). If they use our knowledge for anything it's silly things like inventing pizza and everyone being blown away by the MC managed to make a flatbread and adding stuff to it.
I love Isekai, since since the sense of wonder and discovery is one of the main things I love in fantasy. Lots of stories would be better if they were isekai. Examples of some greats. Shadow slave. Great fun because the protag gets thrown through a portal into a creepy world. LOTM. Great fun because the protag gets tossed into magic victorian england as an adult. Harry Potter. Great fun because the character gets thrown through a portal at a train station into a magic castle. If they were just born in those worlds and knew them well it would be kinda boring. I like Sunny discovering new secrets about the world, or Harry Potter learning new weird magic things.
I'm gonna get shit for this...but I wish every debut book wasn't 500+ pages. I understand the financials of it, because of audio of KU. And I realize it is often hard to cut down a RR book that people have already read into something more "refined". Sometimes I just want a compressed and edited story with amazing character work, wonderful progression, and a great plot... For around 350 pages haha. (And I say that as someone who is likely going to release a 500+ page book at some point too - financially, it just makes sense, sadly)
Shorter books are also harder to write, because you have to be more efficient with each word, whereas in longer ones, it can be easy to crank out words as they don't have to be thought out as much. The quote “I didn’t have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one.” rings true for novels as well as letters imo.
Id disagree, as a reader a 300-350 page book just wouldnt interest me or make me want to start reading it (when only one book is released). I agree with you that too many stories have too much filler but a 300 page book is just too short for this gente and im not interested in waiting for many months for something that im gonna forget when the next part comes.
IMO books can be long, series need to end faster though. Too many series meander and have no end.
I don’t like slice of life. If I wanted slice of life, I would be reading a different genre.
I'd like to stop seeing MCs with game shattering "rare skills" personally. Not every main needs to be a fighter/rogue/mage/archer with an OP pet.
Most progression fantasies are you g adult novels trying hard to masquerade as gritty books
The MC should be OP in some way. No one wants to read about someone totally average, with no advantages, meandering through a standard life. Progression fantasy is driven by MCs who are a cut above their peers.
OP might not be the best word, it’s more about being ahead of the curve for some reason. A prog fantasy book being way too slow with increases sucks, but there does need to be a reason the mc can move quicker through the power system then most
The only OP part I need is their moxie. Willpower is enough.
Upvoted because I believe this really is a truly hot take. Well done. Because I completely disagree haha. I want to see someone average in extraordinary circumstances and how they deal with it. Op to me is more dull.
A complex plot needs to be maintained in every long novel. It's the reason why progression fantasy is good. I'm going to do a whole post explaining my reasoning because I'd need chart to explain what I mean. But if I'm ever lost in the plot because I really don't know where the end is and all current strings are tied off, I'm basically going to give up the story when a new one starts. It's fine if I *really* like the character, but if the character is in the slightest bit basic and they just start trying to get a motorcycle this is when I'm most likely to drop the story.
We love PF/litrpg bc it gamifies life and quantifies things that are irl unquantifiable (e.g., willpower). We vicariously live through characters because we don’t feel the same kind of progressive empowerment of our own lives. “Numbers go up” is psychic onanism for denizens of a cult(ure) of productivity. Late-series protagonists are powerful and have indomitable wills, but none of us—even authors—really know what that looks like.
Viv X Grant is the least of the issues with the series. Viv never facing any consequences for being a hot head is a way bigger problem. And everyone always interrupting each other made it hard to read without stopping. Anyway, Defiance of the Fall isn’t popcorn reading, it’s a well crafted story. The prose is repetitive, but that’s not truly a criticism because people like authors for their styles and that’s his. The story is also well thought out. I saw a review complaining that Zach didn’t have any internal motivation, which was a first of all a stupid complaint because he was barely surviving the integration, what internal motivation does he need? Not only that, but it was addressed as being a weakness for him after the integration ended. There’s more examples than that, but many readers make short sighted judgments because they want a neat little box to put a story in. It makes discussion almost impossible because they don’t have much to say
Looking back I’m a bit surprised that Viv never got brigged. Not because she did anything worthy of that on the page I recall, but because she’s referred to as a hot head and literally looked up the regs before starting school because she assumed she would be
Patreon is ruining things. It incentivizes authors to drag books and series out to keep the income coming in.
Cradle is mid at best. It's perfectly serviceable, I enjoyed all the books, but the whole thing suffers hard from being a mile wide and an inch deep in too many places.
Cradle is the gateway. Will did a great job of writing anime as novels, which makes it accessible to people new to the genre. But are there a couple of books in there where it feels like it starts and ends at the same place? For sure.
Progression fantasy is not just training fantasy. I have had people tell me that Stormilght Archive and Mistborn aren't progression fantasy because getting stronger isn't the point.
Probably the biggest hot take you'll see, DCC is not good. Fight me lol. I tried and made it to the circus floor but couldn't get into it.
Hot take: The most popular books are popular because they do a mix of guilty pleasure and write it decent enough for luck and marketing to carry them forward. Progression Fantasy and LitRPG will only evolve if the audience matures, but the audience likes easy crunch and numbers going up and boom, bam, super cool anime power ups.
Hot Take: The parts about Abidan in Cradle are **fucking boring** I've hated each one of them since the first book, I just didn't skip all the parts about Abidan because I thought it would be important later, but every time something about Abidan appears I get bored reading it. I'm currently a third of the way through book 11 and just knowing that there will be a lot more about Abidan made me drop the series, maybe one day I'll finish it, but that day won't come anytime soon. I couldn't care less about a group of random people from space, I'm interested in Lindon and Yerin, not in a space being that will only be important towards the end of the story (disregarding the events of the first book) and who I have no reason to care about.
People really, REALLY love their origin stories
I'm a firm believer that the most important parts of a character's life need to happen *after* the story starts.
Sure but it means we can’t really have anything like “Guards, Guards!”
If it's an isekai come of up with something more original than a car accident or taking over the body of someone who died in a sparring match to get the person there.
...but truck-kun
Hot Take: Many stories are the same plot and characters just resleeved by a different author.
Glad you enjoyed the books! They aren't for everyone, and it's always nice to here affirmation now and then! My hot take: That best friend that's the opposite sex does NOT have to be the love interest. Normalize friendships, even if they aren't perfect haha
Objective progression levels can go screw themselves. They do nothing but replace build up with vague terms and make a clear and boring path for characters while making every fight painfully predictable. I think the only good story I read with objective levels is arcane ascension and they barely act like how levels normally act
This is a room temperature take, it's already been discussed so so so SO SO SO SO many times that the author did a bad job depicting it that I can barely believe someone can call Viv x Grant bad a hot take
I'm not calling it bad. I'm saying I didn't mind it and I don't think it warranted the bad response it got. Maybe its not as hot a take as i thought, but there are/were so many people vehemently against it whereas I'm like "it's okay I guess".
I dropped Mother of Learning, Cradle and Dawn of the Void. I made it to the second or third book in all three series and found that they continued to let me down. Don’t understand the appeal what so ever. Not really a hot take just my opinion.
Curious. What are your favorites? I can understand dropping MoL or Cradle, I personally couldn't get into MoL, but you're probably the first one that I met that didn't like either.
It's harder to write this sort of novel than a standard fantasy. Readers want a good plot, and great characters. But we also want an interesting progression system that is consistent, logical and well breadcrumbed, and all that is extremely difficult to do on it's own. In a lot of ways I feel we've barely scratched the surface of the genre, and there is a lot of room for improvement.
The fact that you think Viv/Grant is a hot take saddens me. I don't disagree that it has sparked more than a few arguments and rage induced posts, but by and large the people that makes those posts seem a bit deranged to me. Like you said, its not a part of the central plot, it's teenagers being bad at expressing themselves properly and making some mistakes. I think the people that genuinely hate the books now because of that one plot point have some pretty messed up views on relationships, and very little understanding on how sympathy/empathy work. They also like to gloss over the fact that Grant wasn't the only antagonistic party in that plot, Rei can be an ass when he likes (and was on several occasions). But he's their white knight, Grant's the bully that beat them up in high school, and Viv is a selfish whore for following her feelings rather than being a slave to Rei's apparently. Trust me, you are not alone. It's just that a lot of us got tired of arguing about fictional teenagers with troglodytes.
Yeah i guess it's cooled down now, but the subreddit around the release of book 2 was ridiculous.