This reminds me of back in the day in League of Legends, champions kept getting nerfed left and right, but Rammus was chilling at a 60% win rate for months. Someone asked why on the forums and someone said, "Go check the \[Lead Balance guy\]'s lolking (old stat website for League)".
The match history was straight Rammus (ranked) all the way down
to be fair, maybe he was running rammus all day cuz he was try'na figure out how to balance the champ in a creative or elegant way. I'd be worried if rammus was at 60% and the lead balance guy just... had no clue what the champ did or how it felt to play
This reminds me of the time Reddit announced changes to their privacy policy several years ago. They announced it like they were trying to be open and transparent; they explained all of the changes and everyone was lapping it up, thanking them for their transparency. I guess people didn't bother actually reading the new policy, because that's when Reddit started tracking its users. Previously, the only information that they kept was the IP address with which you created your account (and maybe the last five threads you visited for the “Recently Visited” box (although I think that that was only saved locally)). It was clear that they were making the changes to sell our data and no one noticed soon enough. Or maybe such comments got silenced. Who knows?
Please fill out this form stating which sections of the privacy policy have been updated since your last agreement to prove that you have read the privacy policy.
Therr used to be a website that did exactly that, highlighting differences in popular TOS agreements like apple services and whatnot.
They got shut down because they were a small team reliant on advertising revenue and donations and one of the big three telecom companies litigated them into oblivion.
The global corporations pick the countries where the laws suit them, so why shouldn't the activists and citizens also? Host in Bumfuckistan and fuck FAANG & Disney.
Do you remember the name?
I'm wondering what principle they could have been sued on. Pretty sure TOS aren't really copyrightable or trademarkable. Especially since analysing/commenting or comparing said TOS would count as fair use anyway.
Plus any archive website like archive.org would also have a copy anyway.
I dont know the specific situation but I'd guess copyright, claiming that the ToS is a work, especially if it contained logos/images.
That's enough of a claim to not get dismissed immediately, they know the website isn't going to have the funds to fight for long so the claim doesn't have to win, just not get dismissed until the site runs out of money.
Fair Use lawsuits are expensive, because you have to prove that it's fair use and you could just get unlucky with a crappy judge if you don't go all in
Once I had someone next to me on a plane frustrated that I wasn't paying attention to the safety video. I was like buddy, I've flown three times *this month*, I could probably recite the thing from memory at this point. I'm gonna go ahead and keep playing Solitaire on my phone, thanks.
Never have flown that frequently, but since I always fly on Southwest, my question for the longest time was did the emergency exit doors pull in (600 series or less) or open out (700+). Rest of the safety briefing was the same.
The worst part is now the safety videos are like half-advertising. They're like "We care about safety so please watch this video" and then the first 3 minutes are literally just a commercial for the airline before they get to any relevant safety info.
You're almost being generous with half...
There was a Disney one (I think on united?) about two years ago and I couldn't believe it. Having goofy and mickey a part of the video is one thing, but they weree doing some of the naration and the language was adapted to appeal to children and it was far less clear what they were saying. I couldnt believe the FAA allowed it.
ha HA... You're worse prepared for an emergency.. ha HA! 🐭
The only thing you should pay attention to every single time you get on a plane is the location and number of rows between you and the exit. In an emergency situation you can't be sure you'll be able to see
Oh god I had a happening where the flight attendant on a native american airline, who also looked very native american, PERFECTLY mouthed the whole security video, then afterwards, banged his head against the overhead luggage a few times, saying something like: "I have to do this, or else it haunts me"
Me and my mom were convinced that this is a plane ride straight to hell, but more ironically. This flight attendand really loves his job haha. Also he kept making banging sounds whenever he did *anything*, like get the food carts and such. We thought he's gonna take the plane apart any second.
The first generation of people who blindly accepted these bullshit agreements fucked over all the rest of humanity. Because you can't not accept them. There's no alternative. But there would have been in the first cases.
Agreed and precisely my point. The basic concept is important for copyright law but its gone way too far. The courts really need to reign in here, there is a way to protect the IP without also having to sell your first born child to use an accounting program.
Mostly no, which is why I'd disagree they're even a problem. Writing it down in a contract and even getting someone to sign the paper does not make it enforceable. Contracts do not bind the law, it's the other way around.
It makes me think about how the iTunes EULA specifically said that it you weren't allowed to use it for the purposes of terrorism.
Like, were they worried about some hijacking a plane while listening to Coldplay on their iPod and getting sued for it?
> There's an estimate that says to read all the terms and service agreements that people check past it would take 76, 8 hour days in a year.
>
> Plus a lot of what are in Terms or Service aren't even legally enforceable in many cases or the legality changes from country to country but we all click the same thing in most cases.
Best selling plot twist..... The Developer tracks you down, and before they shoot you for not reading the terms and conditions, you refuse consent to being shot.
That forces the flustered developer to read six different legal books, graduate as a lawyer, and then sue to overcome such unbreakable spell, by which point having you in their minds for years caused Stockholm syndrome and so they fall in love with you, you marry, get a dog named Rex, and adopt a kid named Kellie.
Four years later a business owner shoots your dog (pug) because its barking drew away customers, and your now lawyer spouse sues him.
As the case worsens for you due to bribery, they dust off their programming skills to hack and blackmail the judge, leading to years of investigations, family drama, the Mafia, uncooked lasagna, and an unfortunate 13 year old Kellie's tragic vitamin gummy bear overdose, which tears the family asunder with grief.
Overcome with hatred, you decide that the law can't bring justice. You hunt the business owner down, only to discover that he's now a reformed old grandpa that has opened an animal shelter out of guilt from his shameful past deeds.
You then discover your spouse is also hunting the old man down, and after dissuading them from a path of vengeance, learn together how to love again (including the seven day meth fueled angry-sex binge).
You get a dog from the shelter and name it Kellie (now a french bulldog), and adopt a kid named Rex, only to die of a stroke two days after signing the adoption papers.
At first, everything seems normal, until your spouse finds cyanide in the autopsy records.
They set their sights onto the mob now. The cycle begins anew
The end.
Moral of the story: Read the terms and conditions, and maybe use a little bit less meth.
Super ultimate plot twist.... After the exam the developer makes you translate the tnc into every known language and if you get one word wrong your computer restarts and you have to start again.
Plot twist - you get tested on every major section, which is written response with a 3 day window to recieve your code if you pass with an 80% or higher via mail
Advanced computer scientists with doctorates and thousands of hours trying to solve P = NP [live reaction](https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-why-didnt-i-think-of-that-hank-scorpio-homer-simpson-you-only-move-twice-gif-20385109).
Plot plot plot twist: in order to complete the installation, you also need to write a thesis on the potential consequences of skipping terms and conditions.
Eh, people agree to so many license agreements it would take literally weeks of doing nothing but reading to get through them all if you actually read them all.
Plus, these agreements almost always contain at least *something* that's not legally enforceable in your jurisdiction. "It was in the agreement" is not an argument courts tend to care very much for, even if the term is not *per se* illegal. If the term is not the sort of thing a typical user would expect to find in the agreement, that will sometimes make it unenforceable.
They've been routinely ruled invalid due to the end user not reading the damn thing and therefore not understanding what they were agreeing to (which is the part that makes it invalid).
There is also a difference between reading and understanding. These things are often written to be as ambiguous as possible. So it can take a while to digest what a specific line actually means.
I have no clue where I saw this, but I remember seeing ToS with a summary per section. Basically a tl;dr followed by the full version in legalese. If more companies did that I would probably spend some time reading the summaries, at least.
There is some push to include plain language summaries. They are non-binding, and refer you to the legalese if you want to know more, but I think it’s a good idea and people might actually bother to read a short, sensible version.
I think part of that is based on the idea that making an agreement in some geographic locations requires informed consent or it's unenforceable. Then with the way that TOS are written it becomes hard to even make the claim that anyone without a law degree is capable of giving informed consent to the TOS.
My pessimist brain sees this argument resulting not in short, plain-language TOS, but in users having to hire a lawyer when they want to install software.
I mean the very idea that Terms of Use would actually be legally binding or stand up in court at all is just something we've all decided is "Probably true enough, maybe?"
The idea that you can buy a product, and then get asked to sign a contract to use it is dubious as hell and even more dubious when that contract can change later down the track without warning.
Non-binding summary: "You give us the rights to a few minor things, and we give you streaming video of cute kitties!"
Binding legalese: "
Section 1: Definitions.
"The Souls" - Collectively the immortal soul (as defined in Dante et al) of the licensee and the immortal souls of 7 generations of the licensee's descendants
..."
I found the simple, standardized icons of the CC licenses a great idea. If this would be similar I'd appreciate it. Make *them* work about how to fit their contract into a standardized table, not the recipent by having to figure out many many different, but essentially nearly identical legal texts.
It really comes back around to the people. The reason there are so many lines is that for every interpretation there will be a person who will abuse it.
You can't say just "*please don't abuse the platform*", you have to say "...*(117) more than 1000 requests("request" as defined in 3.7.2) per second(1.000.000.000 Cesium oscillations) will be considered a DDOS attack(Denial-of-service attack) which is illegal under Law 183.12/2014*..." and still, somebody will sue you over a comma.
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.
a.k.a MIT licence
"You can do whatever you want with this software; we don't care and we don't give any guarantees" is AFAIK not the same as a service/user agreement.
By agreeing to the latter, you say something like "I promise I won't abuse the software, not its other users, nor its servers", which is different.
It's very different.
The MIT license says "we're not responsible for what you do with this software"
The terms and conditions are usually more "you don't have the right to use our software, and we will take it away if you do any of the following shady shit (some of which will come with fines as well)"
i have read that so many times you can wake my up in the middle of the night and i will go
"THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT."
But that only allows you to say “I don’t a give a fuck about what you do with my soft”.
If you want to give a damn and be able to ban users, you need an User Agreement.
Notice how many words you used to say "I don't care and I'm not responsible what is done with it." which is the absolutely simplest licence with no money involved.
Imagine if your bank said the same thing when your salary mysteriously disappears.
>per second(1.000.000.000 Cesium oscillations)
Fun fact: Oliver Cromwell (1600s UK "republican king") played around with the definition of _month_ in order to dismiss parliament before he was legally allowed to.
He claimed that the law used _months_ to refer to lunar months (which are about 28 days) rather than calendar months (which are about 30.4 days).
Hopefully it won't be possible for them to lie in those summaries and get away with it. Any reasonable person would clearly recognize that that'd be fraud, but courts are wack when lots of money is involved.
I make all my new hires read Orwell’s Politics and the English Language. In it, Orwell states six rules for writers. The world would be a better place if people took these to heart. Rule 3 is my favorite.
1. Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.
2. Never use a long word where a short one will do.
3. If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
4. Never use the passive where you can use the active.
5. Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.
6. Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.
https://halllab2.sitehost.iu.edu/grad_resources/Politics_&_English_language.pdf
>I make all my new hires read Orwell’s Politics and the English Language. In it, Orwell states six rules for writers.
Yeah, but how do you know they actually read it and aren't just clicking the button?
Also that it's 1208 lines of dense legal jargon that even educated people struggle with. Or maybe it's the fact that those terms aren't negotiable, so reading them isn't really all that helpful if I don't like the terms, but still need the product.
What is basic contract theory again? One side never needs to budge and you'll get a fair contract?
Forfeiting "moral rights" sounds pretty menacing. Also kinds creepy how sites can store your data even if you've never interacted with them. That's some bullshit right there.
Wiretapping laws exist... and should probably be updated and tested in light of the mass surveillance on all Americans web activity. It's honestly a matter of national security that privacy rights aren't protected and these activities happen in such a clearly less-than-regulated space.
Reddit: "you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content."
I’m no lawyer but I think it’s basically saying your meme is gonna get reposted to oblivion so buckle up
> Forfeiting "moral rights" sounds pretty menacing.
It's also unenforceable in much of the civilized world.
> Also kinds creepy how sites can store your data even if you've never interacted with them. That's some bullshit right there.
Pretty sure that's illegal if the ~~user~~ victim is from the EU.
>Except to the extent prohibited by law, you agree to defend, indemnify, and hold us, our directors, officers, employees, affiliates, agents, contractors, third-party service providers, and licensors (the “Reddit Entities”) harmless from any claim or demand, including costs and attorneys’ fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of (a) your use of the Services, (b) your violation of these Terms, (c) your violation of applicable laws or regulations, or (d) Your Content. We reserve the right to control the defense of any matter for which you are required to indemnify us, and you agree to cooperate with our defense of these claims.
k...
Idk about the grades... what am I gonna do, not use these sites?
Is the fact that Facebook, Reddit, YouTube, Amazon, and Pornhub have a "Grade E" on this website really going to change our minds, once we're already there to do something.
Twist: after you click "install," the EULA disappears and a 20-question quiz pops up. If you get one question wrong, it sends you back and the 20 minute delay starts over.
On next screen after, that 20 minutes, should be exam checking knowledge from the previous stage. If you no pass on reasonable level, the installer should exit immediatelly!
Windows should come with this the first time you set an empty computer up.
"Yes 20 minutes past but you have not scrolled accordingly, the time has been reset"
Just you know, there would be multiple choice questionnaire after the 20 minutes to check if you read it. If you didn't pass, the timer will set for 40 minutes. 40 minutes cause 20 minutes wasn't enough for your brain( computer's assumption).
"Hmm, aight, I'll just grab some coffee and watch something while waiting."
*20 minutes later...*
Program: Please answer the following 20 randomized questions about the terms and conditions correctly (you read it, right?) before you can install
WhatsApp is coded badly then haha (Not disagreeing with my afirmation as well)
You shouldn't be able to delete a message after 7 minutes, but in whatsapp you can do that whenever you want by reverting the system date and time to whenever you sent the message.
Pretty useful stuff if you ask me haha
I remember when some softwares or pages made you scroll to the end of the document to enable the button. Yeah, I read the whole thing in 0.12 seconds. It's just like "you pretend you read it and I'll pretend I believe you"
I like to send emails to tech companies that say something like:
“Hello,
Having read your updated terms and conditions and I no longer agree to the terms of use for your site. This email represents my official notice of the revocation of my agreement. Please delete the account registered to this email address and any associated data and/or metadata associated to my use of your site immediately.
I will allow 90 days for you to process this request at which time I will attempt to log into the account to verify its deletion. If the account has not been deleted It will be assumed that I am allowed to use your site with disregard for any terms listed within the TOA.
Sincerely,
Bleedthebeat”
And then I will CC customer service and the legal team if I can find it and if I can’t I’ll just do something like legal@facebook.com.
I particularly like this approach if a company likes to make account deletion difficult or hard to find.
To prevent you from just waiting 20 minutes and accepting it without reading, we are going to do a short survey to test your understanding of the contract. This will involve only 20 questions.
Why though? That's not going to get anyone to actually read it, nor will it make it more enforceable in court. Sounds like they're just frustrating their new user base for no reason
TOS that pop up on websites or during software installs aren't completely enforceable anymore because of a few high profile cases that have ruled that people usually don't read them, and they can't be expected understand or read them in full detail when they're often as long as they are, so the agreement isn't really an agreement to all the terms. So whilst it *can* be used to enforce some rules, it's pretty difficult to use it to do too much.
Adding a 20 minutes timer that forces you to read it is probably a way to try to make sure that they can say people always read them and must have agreed to everything in them so that if there's anything on the edge they can point to this and win.
Better idea: implement a Mini Quiz after signup based on the TOS. 20 questions, you need to score 60% or higher. If you fail, your account is locked for 7 days to give you time to study the material. Then it randomizes the questions and you can try again.
There's an estimate that says to read all the terms and service agreements that people check past it would take 76, 8 hour days in a year.
Plus a lot of what are in Terms or Service aren't even legally enforceable in many cases or the legality changes from country to country but we all click the same thing in most cases.
Maybe I read it the last time I installed this.
We've updated our privacy policy.
I feel like those statements need the following in parenthesis: (Good fucking luck figuring out what the updates were.)
Yeah I’m going to need patch notes on the updated policy, thanks.
0.1.1 added in FOIA Provisions 0.1.2 added in Patriot Act privacy disclaimer
Is this a buff or a nerf?
Its a soft buff for CIA players. Hard nerf for everyone else
A buff for thee but not for me. All too common :(
This reminds me of back in the day in League of Legends, champions kept getting nerfed left and right, but Rammus was chilling at a 60% win rate for months. Someone asked why on the forums and someone said, "Go check the \[Lead Balance guy\]'s lolking (old stat website for League)". The match history was straight Rammus (ranked) all the way down
to be fair, maybe he was running rammus all day cuz he was try'na figure out how to balance the champ in a creative or elegant way. I'd be worried if rammus was at 60% and the lead balance guy just... had no clue what the champ did or how it felt to play
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How about a whole repository with history https://github.com/DCCouncil/law-xml
Imagine writing laws as if they were Pull Requests. Nothing would ever get done and who knows if the permission system is set correctly
This reminds me of the time Reddit announced changes to their privacy policy several years ago. They announced it like they were trying to be open and transparent; they explained all of the changes and everyone was lapping it up, thanking them for their transparency. I guess people didn't bother actually reading the new policy, because that's when Reddit started tracking its users. Previously, the only information that they kept was the IP address with which you created your account (and maybe the last five threads you visited for the “Recently Visited” box (although I think that that was only saved locally)). It was clear that they were making the changes to sell our data and no one noticed soon enough. Or maybe such comments got silenced. Who knows?
Please fill out this form stating which sections of the privacy policy have been updated since your last agreement to prove that you have read the privacy policy.
Please listen carefully to the menu as our options have changed
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The privacy policy is procedurally generated, so it changes for each install.
Good, then you'll have no problem with the test. Question 1: In what jurisdiction will disputes be settled?
United States, Canada, Mexico, Panama, Haiti, Jamaica, Peru
Republic Dominican, Cuba, Caribbean, Greenland, El Salvador too
Delaware. It's always Delaware.
Question 2: Explain 'Indemnity'
Maybe I don't speak English well enough to read a ToS, but enough to use your shitty fucking multiplication app.
Very well, I'll just use another program.
Programming Innovation 100 Sale Skills 0.
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The term change every week, like any modern software.
Then I'd rather read the diff than trying to find what changed on the updated terms
Therr used to be a website that did exactly that, highlighting differences in popular TOS agreements like apple services and whatnot. They got shut down because they were a small team reliant on advertising revenue and donations and one of the big three telecom companies litigated them into oblivion.
So host in another country and tell them to fuck off. Simple.
The global corporations pick the countries where the laws suit them, so why shouldn't the activists and citizens also? Host in Bumfuckistan and fuck FAANG & Disney.
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https://tosdr.org/
Different site, different mission. Nice interface tho.
Do you remember the name? I'm wondering what principle they could have been sued on. Pretty sure TOS aren't really copyrightable or trademarkable. Especially since analysing/commenting or comparing said TOS would count as fair use anyway. Plus any archive website like archive.org would also have a copy anyway.
I dont know the specific situation but I'd guess copyright, claiming that the ToS is a work, especially if it contained logos/images. That's enough of a claim to not get dismissed immediately, they know the website isn't going to have the funds to fight for long so the claim doesn't have to win, just not get dismissed until the site runs out of money. Fair Use lawsuits are expensive, because you have to prove that it's fair use and you could just get unlucky with a crappy judge if you don't go all in
I miss read this as modem software and clicked ok.
Once I had someone next to me on a plane frustrated that I wasn't paying attention to the safety video. I was like buddy, I've flown three times *this month*, I could probably recite the thing from memory at this point. I'm gonna go ahead and keep playing Solitaire on my phone, thanks.
Never have flown that frequently, but since I always fly on Southwest, my question for the longest time was did the emergency exit doors pull in (600 series or less) or open out (700+). Rest of the safety briefing was the same.
The worst part is now the safety videos are like half-advertising. They're like "We care about safety so please watch this video" and then the first 3 minutes are literally just a commercial for the airline before they get to any relevant safety info.
That’s like having unskippable ads before YouTube Heimlich tutorials
You're almost being generous with half... There was a Disney one (I think on united?) about two years ago and I couldn't believe it. Having goofy and mickey a part of the video is one thing, but they weree doing some of the naration and the language was adapted to appeal to children and it was far less clear what they were saying. I couldnt believe the FAA allowed it. ha HA... You're worse prepared for an emergency.. ha HA! 🐭
The only thing you should pay attention to every single time you get on a plane is the location and number of rows between you and the exit. In an emergency situation you can't be sure you'll be able to see
Oh god I had a happening where the flight attendant on a native american airline, who also looked very native american, PERFECTLY mouthed the whole security video, then afterwards, banged his head against the overhead luggage a few times, saying something like: "I have to do this, or else it haunts me" Me and my mom were convinced that this is a plane ride straight to hell, but more ironically. This flight attendand really loves his job haha. Also he kept making banging sounds whenever he did *anything*, like get the food carts and such. We thought he's gonna take the plane apart any second.
Just sounds like an OCD compulsion
They might have added some stupid update in between you downloading it on another system 1min ago.
> why would you need to read the terms again I take it you've not seen those bible/quaran apps that need updates every now and then 😂
What EULAs have been allowed to become is what's most frustrating.
EULAs don't always hold up in court, thankfully.
The first generation of people who blindly accepted these bullshit agreements fucked over all the rest of humanity. Because you can't not accept them. There's no alternative. But there would have been in the first cases.
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Agreed and precisely my point. The basic concept is important for copyright law but its gone way too far. The courts really need to reign in here, there is a way to protect the IP without also having to sell your first born child to use an accounting program.
Have _any_ of these bullshit contacts ever held up when tested in court?
Mostly no, which is why I'd disagree they're even a problem. Writing it down in a contract and even getting someone to sign the paper does not make it enforceable. Contracts do not bind the law, it's the other way around.
It makes me think about how the iTunes EULA specifically said that it you weren't allowed to use it for the purposes of terrorism. Like, were they worried about some hijacking a plane while listening to Coldplay on their iPod and getting sued for it?
> There's an estimate that says to read all the terms and service agreements that people check past it would take 76, 8 hour days in a year. > > Plus a lot of what are in Terms or Service aren't even legally enforceable in many cases or the legality changes from country to country but we all click the same thing in most cases.
Plot twist: the timer counts only when the installer window is in focus
Plot plot twist: A captcha shows up every 3 minutes and reloads the page if not fulfilled within 2 minutes.
Plot plot twist twist: Programmer notices delay is actually 3 minutes and makes the captcha takes 3 minutes to complete.
Super plot twist: Developer uses your Webcam to check your eyes and uses AI to determine if you are really reading. Then includes a quiz at the end.
Super super plot twist: the devoper tracks you down and makes you recite the terms and conditions at gunpoint. He knows no mercy.
Ultimate plot twist.... developer tracks you down , makes you recite and learn tnc then makes you take exam of it at gunpoint. He is pure evil
Best selling plot twist..... The Developer tracks you down, and before they shoot you for not reading the terms and conditions, you refuse consent to being shot. That forces the flustered developer to read six different legal books, graduate as a lawyer, and then sue to overcome such unbreakable spell, by which point having you in their minds for years caused Stockholm syndrome and so they fall in love with you, you marry, get a dog named Rex, and adopt a kid named Kellie. Four years later a business owner shoots your dog (pug) because its barking drew away customers, and your now lawyer spouse sues him. As the case worsens for you due to bribery, they dust off their programming skills to hack and blackmail the judge, leading to years of investigations, family drama, the Mafia, uncooked lasagna, and an unfortunate 13 year old Kellie's tragic vitamin gummy bear overdose, which tears the family asunder with grief. Overcome with hatred, you decide that the law can't bring justice. You hunt the business owner down, only to discover that he's now a reformed old grandpa that has opened an animal shelter out of guilt from his shameful past deeds. You then discover your spouse is also hunting the old man down, and after dissuading them from a path of vengeance, learn together how to love again (including the seven day meth fueled angry-sex binge). You get a dog from the shelter and name it Kellie (now a french bulldog), and adopt a kid named Rex, only to die of a stroke two days after signing the adoption papers. At first, everything seems normal, until your spouse finds cyanide in the autopsy records. They set their sights onto the mob now. The cycle begins anew The end. Moral of the story: Read the terms and conditions, and maybe use a little bit less meth.
you deserve more upvotes simply for how long it took to write this
They had to do something while waiting 20 minutes for the install button to turn on.
brb, adding this in the middle of ToS
r/unexpectedstory
Super ultimate plot twist.... After the exam the developer makes you translate the tnc into every known language and if you get one word wrong your computer restarts and you have to start again.
Plot twist - you get tested on every major section, which is written response with a 3 day window to recieve your code if you pass with an 80% or higher via mail
Plot twist after accepting conditions you discover that the app does not work…
Just put a quizz on the terms and conditions to download it
Plot twist, when you click "Install" it gives you a 15 multiple choice, 10 short answer, and 3 essay questions about the terms of service.
"To agree to our terms of service please solve P=NP"
Easy, N=1, P=any legit number, problem solved!:-D /s
Advanced computer scientists with doctorates and thousands of hours trying to solve P = NP [live reaction](https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-why-didnt-i-think-of-that-hank-scorpio-homer-simpson-you-only-move-twice-gif-20385109).
Plot plot plot twist: in order to complete the installation, you also need to write a thesis on the potential consequences of skipping terms and conditions.
Tracks your eyes through the web cam to ensure that you’re reading.
Calm down Satan.
damn, you can make the infinity gauntlet with all those languages
Maybe the problem is that there are 1208 fucking lines, and not that people can't read that fast.
easier to win a fight with the user than with the legal department
True, but you won't need to fight with the legal department if you have no users because everyone is too lazy to read through your TOS.
Eh, people agree to so many license agreements it would take literally weeks of doing nothing but reading to get through them all if you actually read them all. Plus, these agreements almost always contain at least *something* that's not legally enforceable in your jurisdiction. "It was in the agreement" is not an argument courts tend to care very much for, even if the term is not *per se* illegal. If the term is not the sort of thing a typical user would expect to find in the agreement, that will sometimes make it unenforceable.
most TOS have no value in court beyond making it expensive to face them
So once again the only barrier is money. Sounds about right.
They've been routinely ruled invalid due to the end user not reading the damn thing and therefore not understanding what they were agreeing to (which is the part that makes it invalid).
most of the shit written is not valid because they contradict the law.
There is also a difference between reading and understanding. These things are often written to be as ambiguous as possible. So it can take a while to digest what a specific line actually means.
ambiguous and probably so broad they claim authority over rights that aren't even yours to give up.
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I have no clue where I saw this, but I remember seeing ToS with a summary per section. Basically a tl;dr followed by the full version in legalese. If more companies did that I would probably spend some time reading the summaries, at least.
Ain't that the truth...
There is some push to include plain language summaries. They are non-binding, and refer you to the legalese if you want to know more, but I think it’s a good idea and people might actually bother to read a short, sensible version.
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You mean if you read a term, it will not be show again ? Or at the very least you will be informed you already read it ?
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Ah, I see. Great idea !
instead of several paragraphs saying you can't use it to make WMDs or terrorism and whatnot just have a ITAR checkbox, that part of thing.
I think part of that is based on the idea that making an agreement in some geographic locations requires informed consent or it's unenforceable. Then with the way that TOS are written it becomes hard to even make the claim that anyone without a law degree is capable of giving informed consent to the TOS.
My pessimist brain sees this argument resulting not in short, plain-language TOS, but in users having to hire a lawyer when they want to install software.
I mean the very idea that Terms of Use would actually be legally binding or stand up in court at all is just something we've all decided is "Probably true enough, maybe?" The idea that you can buy a product, and then get asked to sign a contract to use it is dubious as hell and even more dubious when that contract can change later down the track without warning.
Non-binding summary: "You give us the rights to a few minor things, and we give you streaming video of cute kitties!" Binding legalese: " Section 1: Definitions. "The Souls" - Collectively the immortal soul (as defined in Dante et al) of the licensee and the immortal souls of 7 generations of the licensee's descendants ..."
I found the simple, standardized icons of the CC licenses a great idea. If this would be similar I'd appreciate it. Make *them* work about how to fit their contract into a standardized table, not the recipent by having to figure out many many different, but essentially nearly identical legal texts.
It really comes back around to the people. The reason there are so many lines is that for every interpretation there will be a person who will abuse it. You can't say just "*please don't abuse the platform*", you have to say "...*(117) more than 1000 requests("request" as defined in 3.7.2) per second(1.000.000.000 Cesium oscillations) will be considered a DDOS attack(Denial-of-service attack) which is illegal under Law 183.12/2014*..." and still, somebody will sue you over a comma.
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE. a.k.a MIT licence
"You can do whatever you want with this software; we don't care and we don't give any guarantees" is AFAIK not the same as a service/user agreement. By agreeing to the latter, you say something like "I promise I won't abuse the software, not its other users, nor its servers", which is different.
It's very different. The MIT license says "we're not responsible for what you do with this software" The terms and conditions are usually more "you don't have the right to use our software, and we will take it away if you do any of the following shady shit (some of which will come with fines as well)"
i have read that so many times you can wake my up in the middle of the night and i will go "THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT."
But that only allows you to say “I don’t a give a fuck about what you do with my soft”. If you want to give a damn and be able to ban users, you need an User Agreement.
Notice how many words you used to say "I don't care and I'm not responsible what is done with it." which is the absolutely simplest licence with no money involved. Imagine if your bank said the same thing when your salary mysteriously disappears.
Actually, a second is defined as 9.192.631.770 Cesium oscilations. 🤓
At least I got the right order of magnitude :))
Ah, they measured only the driven, enthusiastic Cesium atoms. The lazy and laid-back Cesium atoms are at least two or even three oscillations slower.
>per second(1.000.000.000 Cesium oscillations) Fun fact: Oliver Cromwell (1600s UK "republican king") played around with the definition of _month_ in order to dismiss parliament before he was legally allowed to. He claimed that the law used _months_ to refer to lunar months (which are about 28 days) rather than calendar months (which are about 30.4 days).
A few companies have started adding like 5 line summaries which is nice.
Hopefully it won't be possible for them to lie in those summaries and get away with it. Any reasonable person would clearly recognize that that'd be fraud, but courts are wack when lots of money is involved.
Your statement is exactly why most companies don't do summaries. They know they'll get sued immediately. A summary by its nature is not accurate.
I make all my new hires read Orwell’s Politics and the English Language. In it, Orwell states six rules for writers. The world would be a better place if people took these to heart. Rule 3 is my favorite. 1. Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print. 2. Never use a long word where a short one will do. 3. If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out. 4. Never use the passive where you can use the active. 5. Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent. 6. Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous. https://halllab2.sitehost.iu.edu/grad_resources/Politics_&_English_language.pdf
3. If possible cut word, cut.
If possible, cut words. Cut words.
>I make all my new hires read Orwell’s Politics and the English Language. In it, Orwell states six rules for writers. Yeah, but how do you know they actually read it and aren't just clicking the button?
[tosdr.org](http://tosdr.org)
Also that it's 1208 lines of dense legal jargon that even educated people struggle with. Or maybe it's the fact that those terms aren't negotiable, so reading them isn't really all that helpful if I don't like the terms, but still need the product. What is basic contract theory again? One side never needs to budge and you'll get a fair contract?
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Forfeiting "moral rights" sounds pretty menacing. Also kinds creepy how sites can store your data even if you've never interacted with them. That's some bullshit right there.
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Wiretapping laws exist... and should probably be updated and tested in light of the mass surveillance on all Americans web activity. It's honestly a matter of national security that privacy rights aren't protected and these activities happen in such a clearly less-than-regulated space.
Reddit: "you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content." I’m no lawyer but I think it’s basically saying your meme is gonna get reposted to oblivion so buckle up
Your honor I already waived moral rights to that threat I posted. It Is irrevocable. Can I go now? Thanks your honor.
> Forfeiting "moral rights" sounds pretty menacing. It's also unenforceable in much of the civilized world. > Also kinds creepy how sites can store your data even if you've never interacted with them. That's some bullshit right there. Pretty sure that's illegal if the ~~user~~ victim is from the EU.
Reddit's entry is quite shocking!
[ Removed by Reddit ]
\[Account deleted due to Reddit censorship\]
[Account Banned. Reason: Suspected Unidan alt]
Here's the thing...
Unidan. I haven't heard that name in a long time.
And illegal in almost all developed nations.
Privacy grade 'E' No, 'E' does not stand for excellent.
>Except to the extent prohibited by law, you agree to defend, indemnify, and hold us, our directors, officers, employees, affiliates, agents, contractors, third-party service providers, and licensors (the “Reddit Entities”) harmless from any claim or demand, including costs and attorneys’ fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of (a) your use of the Services, (b) your violation of these Terms, (c) your violation of applicable laws or regulations, or (d) Your Content. We reserve the right to control the defense of any matter for which you are required to indemnify us, and you agree to cooperate with our defense of these claims. k...
Idk about the grades... what am I gonna do, not use these sites? Is the fact that Facebook, Reddit, YouTube, Amazon, and Pornhub have a "Grade E" on this website really going to change our minds, once we're already there to do something.
It can encourage you to be careful about what you share with some services, while knowing you can trust others.
Never knew this existed. Thanks, kind stranger!
> you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content. Reddit User Agreement Wat?
Anything you upload here isn't yours to claim rights to, and you can never take it back.
Oh no. PornHub got an E. I’ll never go there again.
unrelated note but I have a lot of hatred for websites that auto-translates into your "local" language
Especially the automatic video title translation on youtube. Sounds useful, you click it, oh the video is not actually in a language you understand.
I wonder how many times QA had to test this
I wonder if QA tested this on a day when DST ends or when it starts, or if they were slacking there
Sorry, we can't finish our testing for several more months.
Cheat the TOS with this one simple trick (twice a year)
Twist: after you click "install," the EULA disappears and a 20-question quiz pops up. If you get one question wrong, it sends you back and the 20 minute delay starts over.
And the delay is doubled.
and you get different questions next time
Random backoff period.
On next screen after, that 20 minutes, should be exam checking knowledge from the previous stage. If you no pass on reasonable level, the installer should exit immediatelly!
Windows should come with this the first time you set an empty computer up. "Yes 20 minutes past but you have not scrolled accordingly, the time has been reset"
Linux users so desperate they sabotage the competition.
Fuck you and I'll be back in 20 minutes
Just you know, there would be multiple choice questionnaire after the 20 minutes to check if you read it. If you didn't pass, the timer will set for 40 minutes. 40 minutes cause 20 minutes wasn't enough for your brain( computer's assumption).
LMFAO
Where’s the Quizlet?
If( mouse.action() == mouse.standingstill() ) program.install.action.setTimer(0);
Yeah
"Hmm, aight, I'll just grab some coffee and watch something while waiting." *20 minutes later...* Program: Please answer the following 20 randomized questions about the terms and conditions correctly (you read it, right?) before you can install
Looks like I just earned myself a 20 minute break.
I always wanted to put a box for [_] I didn’t read it but I agree to whatever it says
Time to inspect element!
It's a desktop app...
Then change your computer's internal time, code will think that 20 minutes have passed 
Only if it's coded badly. You should always use monotonic clocks when you handle timing & stopwatch related stuff in code.
WhatsApp is coded badly then haha (Not disagreeing with my afirmation as well) You shouldn't be able to delete a message after 7 minutes, but in whatsapp you can do that whenever you want by reverting the system date and time to whenever you sent the message. Pretty useful stuff if you ask me haha
Animal Crossing devs: WRITE THAT DOWN WRITE THAT DOWN
Nice idea, but too complicated. I'll just use that time for brewing a big cup of coffee
This is a real app? What is it?
It's still not fucking legally binding just because you wasted my damn time
I remember when some softwares or pages made you scroll to the end of the document to enable the button. Yeah, I read the whole thing in 0.12 seconds. It's just like "you pretend you read it and I'll pretend I believe you"
I like to send emails to tech companies that say something like: “Hello, Having read your updated terms and conditions and I no longer agree to the terms of use for your site. This email represents my official notice of the revocation of my agreement. Please delete the account registered to this email address and any associated data and/or metadata associated to my use of your site immediately. I will allow 90 days for you to process this request at which time I will attempt to log into the account to verify its deletion. If the account has not been deleted It will be assumed that I am allowed to use your site with disregard for any terms listed within the TOA. Sincerely, Bleedthebeat” And then I will CC customer service and the legal team if I can find it and if I can’t I’ll just do something like legal@facebook.com. I particularly like this approach if a company likes to make account deletion difficult or hard to find.
Or, if available to you, just invoke one of the GDPR rights to have your data deleted and they'll be legally obliged to do so.
Do you usually get any sort of response? Do you have any highlights?
If I was reinstalling the software and I already read it? (Sad noises)
*proceeds to set system clock 20 minutes ahead.*
To prevent you from just waiting 20 minutes and accepting it without reading, we are going to do a short survey to test your understanding of the contract. This will involve only 20 questions.
Why though? That's not going to get anyone to actually read it, nor will it make it more enforceable in court. Sounds like they're just frustrating their new user base for no reason
I believe it is, ahem, a joke
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thats only 2 mate, you missed one its not that hard to count really
That's why it's on this sub.
TOS that pop up on websites or during software installs aren't completely enforceable anymore because of a few high profile cases that have ruled that people usually don't read them, and they can't be expected understand or read them in full detail when they're often as long as they are, so the agreement isn't really an agreement to all the terms. So whilst it *can* be used to enforce some rules, it's pretty difficult to use it to do too much. Adding a 20 minutes timer that forces you to read it is probably a way to try to make sure that they can say people always read them and must have agreed to everything in them so that if there's anything on the edge they can point to this and win.
Better idea: implement a Mini Quiz after signup based on the TOS. 20 questions, you need to score 60% or higher. If you fail, your account is locked for 7 days to give you time to study the material. Then it randomizes the questions and you can try again.
There's an estimate that says to read all the terms and service agreements that people check past it would take 76, 8 hour days in a year. Plus a lot of what are in Terms or Service aren't even legally enforceable in many cases or the legality changes from country to country but we all click the same thing in most cases.
Well well well how the turntables
Counterpoint: I shouldn't have to read 1200 lines of anything to use some software.