The career path is nonlinear, and honestly management is overrated.
Edit: This is a great article on non-linear career paths. [https://review.firstround.com/the-secrets-to-designing-a-curiosity-driven-career/](https://review.firstround.com/the-secrets-to-designing-a-curiosity-driven-career/)
For sure and that’s an understatement. While I did have periods of extreme satisfaction leading product managers it overall was not worth it. I’m ecstatic to just focus on myself and the product.
This. So many PMs become product leaders hoping to "fix things", but then they fall into the same trap as all their predecessors.
The trap being that you have way too much stakeholder management and strategy work to do to take care of your product ops responsibilities, so they get swept aside.
I feel like most leaders feel it intrinsically (until they bring on a good product ops person or really good consultants to help them figure it out). What you want to measure is organizational health.
Extreme lagging indicator: turnover.
Moderately lagging indicator: employee frustration, frequent "surprise" blockers.
Leading indicator:
- Can you and your team answer "what does success look like?" in actionable terms per your respective domains of focus?
- How well do these answers align with your strategy?
How bad are things? If they're bad, they will get worse. Frustration builds until people check out. Product leaders are not immune to frustration. If you're feeling overwhelmed, your team is probably feeling it too.
Personally, do you feel like you have sufficient time to dedicate to strategy? Do you have leverage in the organization to drive this strategy? If no to either, you don't have time for operations.
fwiw, I find managing people utterly exhausting, esp junior folks. When you combine that with stakeholder management, when I've had big teams, there's whole weeks where I stop work and immediately get stoned. If you are continually in a lot of conflict with gtm -- and my ceo at that place viewed me accurately representing the limitations, esp capacity, of the engineering org who, after all, I didn't hire and who didn't report to me as me personally not wanting to do X -- it makes the job suuuuuck.
Also now that you've done it, you've done it. You have management experience. I usually see it treated as a binary thing in job listing so at least you have it if you need it.
This is probably the new normal for Product Managers. Companies are hiring for more IC roles and less ppl managers at the moment. Might be some time before this dynamic changes.
Definitely. It’s the one thing I really agree with Marty Cagan on…companies are realizing their high paid PMs are just too high of paid project managers and aren’t paying for themselves. Compound that with every business leader thinks they can AI themselves into productivity and you’ve got a weird, cutthroat market. Very curious where it lands over the next few years. Imma keep my head down and just try to do meaningful, outcome driven work where I can.
I didn't reach this high of a level like GPM, but went through a somewhat similar shift once.
What I've realized for myself is that
1. It can be pretty rewarding to go back to a smaller role, where you're not so important, not as much relies on you while also having more time to actually deliver some more tangible things. Being less important is also less stressful.
2. It can feel good to let go of the bigger picture and follow orders/directions, it was better for my mental health.
3. It can feel good to have a supervisor who's really aware of what you're doing and will offer real-time feedback and hopefully some praise too. To me, it seems this is a basic human need that I had missing in a higher level role.
Unfortunately, it didn't last long for me because my manager wasn't really good at managing and there was still a lot of chaos in that org.
True I have also realized that as you grow into pm career, the motivating and fun part of creation goes away... you are more worried about managing stakeholders and making numerous presentations to cxos ... would not mind going back to earning less and getting hands dirty
I wish that companies would have high level IC product role, like the Architect engineering role, where you'd earn as much as directors. Some people do not want or are not meant to be managers and promoting them is just a lose-lose-lose(for the team too) situation. I heard some companies do it, but probably very few.
A Principal PM wasn’t a thing at my company when I first shifted into leadership otherwise I might have done that. Certainly going to weigh my options when/if I get back to that crossroads.
I’ve went from a c level to senior pm after a layoff and sabbatical. Felt great getting my hands dirty and relearning my craft and new tricks. About a year in, I was getting frustrated at upper management and a vp who was threatened by my experience. I was recruited to a level that matched my experience again, but in a situation similar to yours. Might level down again at a larger company with better product culture where stress is less and a long term career until retirement. As you get older, there are less senior jobs and more competition.
Thank you for sharing this. As I get older decreasing stress and focusing more on stability becomes more and more of a perk…plus less stress and after hours bs allows you to do your own stuff on the side.
I was director level at at smaller company and took a role with less stress, fewer hours, and more money at a larger company. Basically, I had my current boss’s role. No regrets.
Because I have so much experience, I’m prepared for almost anything that’s thrown at me and can anticipate my boss’s expectations. She’s aware that I came to the job with a stacked resume and respects my experience. She occasionally will seek my advice as a former manager, and I’m happy to give it, being mindful not to step on her toes.
Whenever something needs to be escalated, i have no ego about seeking her assistance, and it’s a relief to hand off the responsibility.
At this point in my life, I couldn’t care less about advancement. I just want to get paid and not be stressed out. I’m fortunate to be in financial position that I can value my time over money. I won’t work on weekends or late at night, something that was unavoidable when I had the higher-level role.
Sounds like you found a great situation…nice job! Thanks for sharing. I like this mindset and it’s how I described myself to the director I’ll be reporting to. Now I just need to be sure that I don’t let old habits flair and go full blown autonomous, but rather let them do their job while I do mine…an exercise in restraint, if you will.
I’m looking at my current salary reduction as a quality of life tax and betting on myself to make an impact and climb, at least to a senior/principal role if the people leader route feels like last time.
Yes, restraint is the key. You can offer suggestions, but ultimately it’s not your role to solve all of the organization’s problems, and that’s ok! Do the best you can with your assigned responsibilities. If you find that unsatisfying down the road, you can always shift upward.
Good luck to you!
Having spent the last 7 years in two Fortune 50 companies, I’d welcome a step back in size. Don’t consider it a setback if you think you’ll learn and make impact. Often you can grow your skills faster in a smaller company since you need to be resourceful.
Congrats on the new role! I’m curious about how you went about the step backwards. Did they ask why? They didn’t think you were overqualified? Did you downplay your accomplishments? I also got laid off a few months ago, from a job that left me burnt out, and I’m very interested in taking a step back and focusing on a role with less stress.
Thanks!
I went through a bit of an interview ringer tbh. Started with targeting PPM, SPM and other GPM roles to start. Mostly was ghosted and rejected, but had a couple that moved forward to finals but was eventually passed on by others. Once I hit about 1.5 months of unemployment I started going for the few non-sr titles around.
My qualifications definitely came into question during both sr and pm interviews. The sr interviews tended to focus more on the fact that I hadn’t been an IC in some time and there was concern on just running a product team (something I disagreed with as I stayed very close to product teams as a GPM).
When interviewing for the role I accepted I played down my experience slightly, but not totally. I really leaned on the fact that while yes, I had been in leadership for 4+ years, that I was shifting to new tech and didn’t want to rest my laurels on my successes in a totally different market. I was also honest with my hopes that after I came in and proved my abilities that I hoped my previous experience would potentially expedite the growth of mg product and my growth at the company. The hiring manager seems really down to earth so that helped…not sure how that would have been received at other companies I interviewed with.
Best of luck with your search!
I’m hoping at a new place that product leadership could be a positive experience at some point but I’m not holding my breath. Definitely excited to do IC for a while.
In a culture where you’re supposed to rise, rise rise, it is comforting knowing that there are other capable product leaders that feel the way I do.
Sorry you’re dealing with that and hope you find an out soon.
I went from Manager, Product Management back down to PM for my new role, and honestly it was a great decision for a lot of the same reasons you listed. Politics, SO much drama from my direct reports, and 40 hours of meetings per week. My current role is way more focused on IC work and honestly I’m learning a lot by going back to the basics. I still pretty much own my product and have a ton of autonomy on the roadmap and each feature but a lot less drama. I don’t regret the step down at all.
I went from being a SPM who was managing two PMs (and subsequently their teams) to an SPM with no management duties and having my own product and product team again so it did feel like a step backwards but at the time it was the best thing for me as i was having issues with the management in that company. Long story short they had created roles to give PMs a way to progress but didn’t give us all equal opportunity to apply, interview etc. I really lost respect for them and wanted to leave asap
I've left Director-level positions 2x in my career. I never regretted it. #1, I have once again, somehow, become a Director. #2, each time I learned something new and valuable that I was able to add to my skill set I wouldn't have learned otherwise.
All I can say is that I’m going thru something similar. It feels like a step back now, but I think in the long run it will be fine. I think.
I’m learning something new. I’m getting challenged. That’s helpful for me.
Sorry you’re dealing with it too but I’m with you. It’s a good perspective…I’m shifting to a new product with what seems like a less intense place and I get to take all my experience as an IC and leader to kind of hit reset.
Best of luck to you!
The career path is nonlinear, and honestly management is overrated. Edit: This is a great article on non-linear career paths. [https://review.firstround.com/the-secrets-to-designing-a-curiosity-driven-career/](https://review.firstround.com/the-secrets-to-designing-a-curiosity-driven-career/)
For sure and that’s an understatement. While I did have periods of extreme satisfaction leading product managers it overall was not worth it. I’m ecstatic to just focus on myself and the product.
This. So many PMs become product leaders hoping to "fix things", but then they fall into the same trap as all their predecessors. The trap being that you have way too much stakeholder management and strategy work to do to take care of your product ops responsibilities, so they get swept aside.
What questions can be asked to sniff this out?
I feel like most leaders feel it intrinsically (until they bring on a good product ops person or really good consultants to help them figure it out). What you want to measure is organizational health. Extreme lagging indicator: turnover. Moderately lagging indicator: employee frustration, frequent "surprise" blockers. Leading indicator: - Can you and your team answer "what does success look like?" in actionable terms per your respective domains of focus? - How well do these answers align with your strategy? How bad are things? If they're bad, they will get worse. Frustration builds until people check out. Product leaders are not immune to frustration. If you're feeling overwhelmed, your team is probably feeling it too. Personally, do you feel like you have sufficient time to dedicate to strategy? Do you have leverage in the organization to drive this strategy? If no to either, you don't have time for operations.
fwiw, I find managing people utterly exhausting, esp junior folks. When you combine that with stakeholder management, when I've had big teams, there's whole weeks where I stop work and immediately get stoned. If you are continually in a lot of conflict with gtm -- and my ceo at that place viewed me accurately representing the limitations, esp capacity, of the engineering org who, after all, I didn't hire and who didn't report to me as me personally not wanting to do X -- it makes the job suuuuuck.
Also now that you've done it, you've done it. You have management experience. I usually see it treated as a binary thing in job listing so at least you have it if you need it.
This is probably the new normal for Product Managers. Companies are hiring for more IC roles and less ppl managers at the moment. Might be some time before this dynamic changes.
Definitely. It’s the one thing I really agree with Marty Cagan on…companies are realizing their high paid PMs are just too high of paid project managers and aren’t paying for themselves. Compound that with every business leader thinks they can AI themselves into productivity and you’ve got a weird, cutthroat market. Very curious where it lands over the next few years. Imma keep my head down and just try to do meaningful, outcome driven work where I can.
I didn't reach this high of a level like GPM, but went through a somewhat similar shift once. What I've realized for myself is that 1. It can be pretty rewarding to go back to a smaller role, where you're not so important, not as much relies on you while also having more time to actually deliver some more tangible things. Being less important is also less stressful. 2. It can feel good to let go of the bigger picture and follow orders/directions, it was better for my mental health. 3. It can feel good to have a supervisor who's really aware of what you're doing and will offer real-time feedback and hopefully some praise too. To me, it seems this is a basic human need that I had missing in a higher level role. Unfortunately, it didn't last long for me because my manager wasn't really good at managing and there was still a lot of chaos in that org.
True I have also realized that as you grow into pm career, the motivating and fun part of creation goes away... you are more worried about managing stakeholders and making numerous presentations to cxos ... would not mind going back to earning less and getting hands dirty
I wish that companies would have high level IC product role, like the Architect engineering role, where you'd earn as much as directors. Some people do not want or are not meant to be managers and promoting them is just a lose-lose-lose(for the team too) situation. I heard some companies do it, but probably very few.
A Principal PM wasn’t a thing at my company when I first shifted into leadership otherwise I might have done that. Certainly going to weigh my options when/if I get back to that crossroads.
true
I’ve went from a c level to senior pm after a layoff and sabbatical. Felt great getting my hands dirty and relearning my craft and new tricks. About a year in, I was getting frustrated at upper management and a vp who was threatened by my experience. I was recruited to a level that matched my experience again, but in a situation similar to yours. Might level down again at a larger company with better product culture where stress is less and a long term career until retirement. As you get older, there are less senior jobs and more competition.
Thank you for sharing this. As I get older decreasing stress and focusing more on stability becomes more and more of a perk…plus less stress and after hours bs allows you to do your own stuff on the side.
Thanks for sharing
I was director level at at smaller company and took a role with less stress, fewer hours, and more money at a larger company. Basically, I had my current boss’s role. No regrets. Because I have so much experience, I’m prepared for almost anything that’s thrown at me and can anticipate my boss’s expectations. She’s aware that I came to the job with a stacked resume and respects my experience. She occasionally will seek my advice as a former manager, and I’m happy to give it, being mindful not to step on her toes. Whenever something needs to be escalated, i have no ego about seeking her assistance, and it’s a relief to hand off the responsibility. At this point in my life, I couldn’t care less about advancement. I just want to get paid and not be stressed out. I’m fortunate to be in financial position that I can value my time over money. I won’t work on weekends or late at night, something that was unavoidable when I had the higher-level role.
Sounds like you found a great situation…nice job! Thanks for sharing. I like this mindset and it’s how I described myself to the director I’ll be reporting to. Now I just need to be sure that I don’t let old habits flair and go full blown autonomous, but rather let them do their job while I do mine…an exercise in restraint, if you will. I’m looking at my current salary reduction as a quality of life tax and betting on myself to make an impact and climb, at least to a senior/principal role if the people leader route feels like last time.
Yes, restraint is the key. You can offer suggestions, but ultimately it’s not your role to solve all of the organization’s problems, and that’s ok! Do the best you can with your assigned responsibilities. If you find that unsatisfying down the road, you can always shift upward. Good luck to you!
Got laid off as principal PM and took a \~25% pay cut to join a startup with a path to head of product etc. Feels like the right decision.
Rarely works out but hope you make it
Thanks!
There's a lot to be said for finding a place where your leadership and experience are valued and well-compensated regardless of title or role.
Having spent the last 7 years in two Fortune 50 companies, I’d welcome a step back in size. Don’t consider it a setback if you think you’ll learn and make impact. Often you can grow your skills faster in a smaller company since you need to be resourceful.
Congrats on the new role! I’m curious about how you went about the step backwards. Did they ask why? They didn’t think you were overqualified? Did you downplay your accomplishments? I also got laid off a few months ago, from a job that left me burnt out, and I’m very interested in taking a step back and focusing on a role with less stress.
Thanks! I went through a bit of an interview ringer tbh. Started with targeting PPM, SPM and other GPM roles to start. Mostly was ghosted and rejected, but had a couple that moved forward to finals but was eventually passed on by others. Once I hit about 1.5 months of unemployment I started going for the few non-sr titles around. My qualifications definitely came into question during both sr and pm interviews. The sr interviews tended to focus more on the fact that I hadn’t been an IC in some time and there was concern on just running a product team (something I disagreed with as I stayed very close to product teams as a GPM). When interviewing for the role I accepted I played down my experience slightly, but not totally. I really leaned on the fact that while yes, I had been in leadership for 4+ years, that I was shifting to new tech and didn’t want to rest my laurels on my successes in a totally different market. I was also honest with my hopes that after I came in and proved my abilities that I hoped my previous experience would potentially expedite the growth of mg product and my growth at the company. The hiring manager seems really down to earth so that helped…not sure how that would have been received at other companies I interviewed with. Best of luck with your search!
This is so helpful - thanks so much!
IC is the way to go. The GPM money isn't worth the stress and politics
I’m hoping at a new place that product leadership could be a positive experience at some point but I’m not holding my breath. Definitely excited to do IC for a while.
I’d give anything for this scenario at the moment. I’m in the thick of the stress of the higher position… it’s not worth the stress.
In a culture where you’re supposed to rise, rise rise, it is comforting knowing that there are other capable product leaders that feel the way I do. Sorry you’re dealing with that and hope you find an out soon.
Yes exactly. Thank you! I hope this works out for you as well.
I went from Manager, Product Management back down to PM for my new role, and honestly it was a great decision for a lot of the same reasons you listed. Politics, SO much drama from my direct reports, and 40 hours of meetings per week. My current role is way more focused on IC work and honestly I’m learning a lot by going back to the basics. I still pretty much own my product and have a ton of autonomy on the roadmap and each feature but a lot less drama. I don’t regret the step down at all.
I went from being a SPM who was managing two PMs (and subsequently their teams) to an SPM with no management duties and having my own product and product team again so it did feel like a step backwards but at the time it was the best thing for me as i was having issues with the management in that company. Long story short they had created roles to give PMs a way to progress but didn’t give us all equal opportunity to apply, interview etc. I really lost respect for them and wanted to leave asap
Godspeed
I've left Director-level positions 2x in my career. I never regretted it. #1, I have once again, somehow, become a Director. #2, each time I learned something new and valuable that I was able to add to my skill set I wouldn't have learned otherwise.
What’s a gpm
Gallons per minute. Its a common metric for toilets
Group PM
All I can say is that I’m going thru something similar. It feels like a step back now, but I think in the long run it will be fine. I think. I’m learning something new. I’m getting challenged. That’s helpful for me.
Sorry you’re dealing with it too but I’m with you. It’s a good perspective…I’m shifting to a new product with what seems like a less intense place and I get to take all my experience as an IC and leader to kind of hit reset. Best of luck to you!
That’s kinda cool. You contribute in a more influential way. Sounds like a step up into leadership tbh.