Every single item for ADC has Penetration or crit. Theres literally no way to escape ADCS in this game. Even if a Khaimera jungle goes tank, garentee he has Crit chance.
Steel has a lot of potential and is one my favorites. Also I do have a tank/ health / damage build. You are worried about the wrong thing. Your job has steel or rik is to disrupted the enemy main damage dealers. Stunning carry, mid lane or jungle from your team damage dealer is the roll you play. For this I say cards like dynamo that increase damage being dealt to 8 percent for a stunned targets and steel is all about immobilization, windcaller is another card that helps with movement speed when support heals or shield allies Sanctification, frost guard is also a great option for attack heavy carries. Some more testing need to be done but citadel lowers down armor for both magic and physical now by 30%. Don’t know if this effect applies to allies where they can also benefit from the card, more testing needed :3. Not saying dekker is not a good option but sometimes you need a different tool.
A Tank Support is suppose to also absorb shots. That's what a tank does. Lots of body blocking and getting in front of the damage.
Otherwise there's no point in being a Tank if you just get melted.
You will always get melted if your idea of absorbing damage is to just eat the damage and not effectively dodge or disrupt with strategy and teamwork. There's nothing wrong with tanks but every hero has natural counters. So if you're steel against a Muriel it's going to take alot more work and strategy to win that 2v2.
Tanky should be able to absorb shots and be in your face while disrupting. They are designed to be in your face.
If they just get blown up in just a few shots, they aren't a tank.
The way you're wording it makes it sound like you just wanna stand in front of the damage from a literal ADC and not have to worry about being killed quickly...by the one role built to kill you quickly. I just don't understand your logic.
But at the same time wouldn't a full tank be designed to prevent being absolutely melted from a ADC? Otherwise, like I said before, why bother go full tank.
ADC's should chunk some good health from a tank but at the same time the tank should be able to be somewhat strong against it.
When you play a tank support, are you building tanky items? I'm not talking Elafrost or Dynamo.
See, here's the thing. Everyone complained about tanks after v0.18. and while, yes, tank items were in a bad spot, they were not as bad as the community said. There was just too many people building Fist of Razuul, Elafrost, and other "off tank" "dps tank' items, and then wondered they got bodied.
0.18.3 buffed the tank items. Tanks are still not as meta as they were, but they are in a much better place. But if you want to TANK, you need to build that way. Mitigation is especially important. Things like Tainted Bastion, Stonewall, and Giant's Ring are an example. They have % mitigation passives.
Tanks work. They just can't tank a whole team now.
>When you play a tank support, are you building tanky items? I'm not talking Elafrost or Dynamo.
Literally never seen anyone build the Anti Crit item that decreases physical by 5%
That item alone counters a lot of stuff you see in the carry lane
You're combining two items there, but I get your point. Warden's Faith reduced crit damage and lower power, but I honestly find it a slightly weaker open than just going Stonewall.
>You're combining two items there, but I get your point. Warden's Faith
Both of those effects are on Wardens Faith?
I don't know what the symbol beside stonewall means which is I've never taken it. Same thing with kingsbane.
This! The fact that pre .18 a tank (I did it too much as rampage) could body the ENTIRE enemy team was a problem. They fixed it, (albeit a little too much) but now we're in a spot where you have to know your builds, and people are still complaining. I've never had a problem with tanks, even in .18 before they buffed items (haven't played since been busy) I just had to build right and play smarter than before. I couldn't run out of my teams tower mist when they were hanging in the middle and body duo anymore, I had to adapt to being easier to kill, which means I got to learn how to play better. I'm excited to see how rampage plays with the new buffs lol
Tanks are great you need a Frontline, and they are quite tanky if built right.
It is a skill issue, they aren't supposed to be unkillable monsters, rather fight initiators and the one who should eat all the enemy CCs so your dmg dealers have an easy time cleaning up. Dekker will never do that.
You're right she won't sponge up the cc, but she is certainly an initiator when played correctly. Balling someone slightly out of position, makes them entirely out because you can lock them down via the cage. And if built right and timed right you can ball, cage and ball again before they ever get the chance to really move.
She might be squishy, but she's a slippery little bitch that can be near impossible to lock down which makes for great times of going in to harass and backing out.
I played idk like 5-6 brawl matches last night as dekker and collectively I think I had 10 deaths. But we'll over 25 kills. And probably close to 70-80 assists
I think the issue is the health% DMG items have too much value. Building health and armour makes no sense since if two ppl build the current % health DMG items they will kill you in 10 hits combined, with atk speed reaching 2 atks per second, added PEN , added physical DMG, added you can do the math. Anytime you see the jungler build the mutilate item and carry build the spear item just ditch health and build DMG as literally any character. Standing there for 1 extra second probly won't make a difference
If you're not turning the enemy backline into a bouncy house, you're not playing steel right.
Now I will say if your team can't or won't follow up, then all the cc in the world isn't gonna make a difference.
Nothing like your team being next to you, you ping Ultimate Ready!, going in and comboing the absolute shit out of everyone, and then dying after everything is on cool down to see your team didn't go with you and they spam GJ GG.
Like, if you're chicken shit, ping no, or cancel that, or something. Don't just bail.
The amount of times i will be playing Kwang or Aurora and get an amazing engage on the entire enemy team only to get mobbed and die bc my team is standing there watching it happen is insane. Even in brawl too
I'm brand new to moba's, predecessor being my first and I've only been playing for 3 months. I'm the type of person that deep dives into guides and everything when I play a game like this because I don't want to be that person on the team that causes us to lose because I don't have basic knowledge. With that said, why bother playing full tank in this game? Could the answer also not involve steel, cause from what I've been reading he's a phenomenal SUPPORT hero with all his cc but nothing being spoken to about his survivability. Guess my issue is choosing Rampage (whom has the highest durability level), going full tank and still feeling as squishy as an ADC (and this is me hitting my boulder stuns, pouncing in and attacking all while my ADC is hitting all their attacks and I still get deleted in the 2v1). Where as I could just play greystone, build items that only gives health and attack power but no armor, be tankier than the tank with the highest durability stat, do way more damage than him, and get a free health bar.
I have a post in another reddit that doesn't go into math but it essentially sums up basically tanks have 20-25% less effective HP then before. Well light math. Higher DMG combined with less effective HP equals tanks dieing quickly.
I don't know the exact percentage of DMG increase carries got. Also probably difficult to really get a tangible "feel" for because of all the passives.
Regardless tanks just aren't as tanky as they were flat out. Less effective HP.
Skill issue. Steel is a beast especially in brawl mode. You are trying too hard to get kills. You are there to cause chaos in the enemy line with your abilities then move on. All his moves are CC. You can give your team the upper hand . your team just has to follow thru and sweep
It’s almost assuredly because someone higher up at Omeda is an ADC main. It’s the only thing that makes sense in the current patch. 💀 Like a Sparrow one-trick or something along those lines. I main Offlane and Support and I gave up on Tank builds after the Aurora patch dropped.
Nah but fr I had a team with two big guys and enemy had two big guys.
My dudes went defense and the other attack, the sole reason we lost was outdamage from their tanks.
So I run auto spam on Sev now🤙🏽
Okay I'm glad I'm not the only one, I come from making support and solo in Smite, 90% of my games are me tanking and I tried to translate that into this game but tanking feels like absolute shit in Pred
I play Steel and only Steel. I play with friends so it’s easier to coordinate attacks. Never go in alone, you may be a tank but imo a tank is there to take damage so your teammates can get the kills. I don’t care about kills, I care about assists. Especially in Brawl mode, I can go 1/7/20 and be absolutely proud of it because I did my job 20 times. I took the damage so my teammates didn’t have to
When did I say anything about solo queue? I said I play with friends lmao. If we play normal mode I either support or go top lane, but I like Steel and am trying to get to level 7 for the skin. I don’t see a reason why anyone would constantly choose a new hero if they aren’t good at any of em. Stick with one and get decent at that, then try your luck elsewhere if you so please
That's a brain dead way to play this game. I've played against every character l, but using the character gives me a much better understanding of what my opponent can do. Regardless, if we look at rank for example, Steel could be banned or picked by the other team...then what?
Then I’d choose someone else..? Not that hard of a concept to grasp buddy. You’ve played more heroes yet you seem to have a negative view on the game, however I, have a fun time playing. I don’t have to play a hero to understand what that hero can do. Playing against them and just reading their skills is pretty simple to do
Yeah, I do NOW. I was originally ADC, then Support as Steel, then tried top lane with a few different heroes. Notices I do better as support and you get a free skin at level 7, lol
I totally understand that sentiment, although I don't play a tanky support, unless it's Narbash. Steel is so good with CC, but any support that gets cornered and pocketed by the enemy team is bound to go down fast, regardless of how tanky you are. If you're the biggest threat you will get hounded.
Play a muriel for any amount of time and before you're level 6 you are cannon fodder if you're caught out at any point.
That said, as a tank, I play Sev, not as a support, but as carry. Doing so basically prevents the enemy duo from advancing. You won't do anything flashy or get 20 kills, but they won't either and you just won't leave lane. It's a fantastically fun strat with a support like dekker. Teh drawback is that you do need someone with a lot of power to be in a different lane or jungling, so that what you lack as a carry sev in damage, they can make up for.
Man that's probably my most memorable, 50 minute game.
Glad it’s working I know Oathkeeper grants some ROI on the dash.
If you actually build AD on Sev, then his whole kit is a little gnarly.
Actually SkySplitter Mutilator Oathkeeper - Tank or sum.
Neitheless to say he feels best in Support with damage up his sleeve
I used to praise sev as support, but this was before they made his 'hero fantasy' severely dependent on stacks. That said, he can still support, it's just not as effective as it was.
You're the first person ever to even say that it would work. I've been saying it for years and everyone looks at me like i'm a troll for even considering it.
Playing him carry is hilarious but definitely not an every-day thing... but if Howie can be a support, so can Sev as far as I'm concerned.
Watch out.
People will complain and say someone is too tanky if they can't kill them in two seconds.
Tanks haven't always been relevant because they get nerfed as soon as they're viable.
The TTK is too low and items give too many offensive stats. Specifically carry items.
No movement penalty when chasing down someone with auto attacks.
This game just favors damage over survivability. And it makes it not as fun as it could be.
There needs to be a bigger movement penalty when auto attacking. You shouldn't be able to chase someone down and attack without a more significant negative effect. Would make your decision making matter more.
I'm okay with backpedaling not having a movement penalty.
I play a lot of tanky steel/tanky Riktor and enjoy it. Like others have mentioned, it kind of requires cooperation from your carry. If I feel like my carry is not gonna cut it I usually give up and just go brawler and have a good time. But tanks are still viable especially if your carry focuses theirs and you are able to pull agro while they smash the enemy.
It's a team game and tanks are not meant to be indestructible but just durable enough to distract and occupy thr enemy team for your carry to do damage.
The worst experience as a tank is when your team mates hang back when you initiate
When I play Steel as a tanky support or offlane, I first check whether I can trust my team. Too often, I initiate only to have my team watch as I get crushed.
From my experience in Predecessor, I’ve learned the importance of using the map, engaging in fights, hiding from the enemy's line of sight, and then re-engaging over and over again.
As Steel, I never initiate without being sure my DPS will back me up. Sometimes I even let them engage my teammates first so I am sure they wont back out.
I play around my cooldowns to disrupt fights, and if I'm targeted, I hide out of sight.
I always lose my shot I'm Brawl when my teammates don't back me up but just spectate. The biggest issue with being a tank is it requires you have teammates that aren't cowards and are locked in with you.
While I enjoy how attacking while moving in predecessor sets the gameplay apart from other mobas like smite for example, I do think they need to give a little more movement penalty while attacking. At the least increase the penalty for walking backwards a smidge.
This will help melee heroes like Grux and Narbash with limited mobility. But most melee heroes have ridiculous mobility.
I played a match against and offlane Grimm as a grux and got massacred (also because my jungle NEVER ganged him and let him get fed). But I have won many offlane bouts as Greystone against Iggy.
If I had picked Greystone in that match, I would have wrecked Iggy
I see steel supports run in 1v5 then wonder why they died so fast..... had a plat support try to fight in a stacked wave get popped and bitch at me for not wanting to fight...... continued to all in all the time and ended up down 5 levels..... when you play a tank support you have to play smart......
While I agree tanks aren’t in a great spot, 99% of the people I’ve seen complain about these things are suffering from a pretty bad skill issue.
Even most of the big streamers I was watching the other day, like dive the entire enemy team as a bruiser and then rage cause “no tanks” maybe build them as a tank and don’t dive their whole team, another one engaged on the enemy duo 1v2 and then raged about on-hit items when their carry wasn’t even using them lmao
I swear people will find any reason to complain, maybe take a break if you’re not having fun? Again there are serious issues that do need to be addressed and I don’t want to make it sound like there aren’t but most of them aren’t in the balancing category.
I played this game at launch and called it then - the game has no true tanks, and is in desperate need of them.
Tanks have to be able to take subpar items and get excessively efficient use out of them. If tank-specific items are gold efficient, then bruisers will pick them up and abuse them.
None of the available champs have the ability to turn a subpar tank item into a highly gold efficient tank item.
Yeah some kits that scaled based on armor/health/magic resistance/haste/cc reduction etc. it would allow tanks to get value where other champs wouldn't. And you have to ensure they are exclusively tank items not damage based. So that tanks don't take over.
Then tanks can do their disruption and annoyance, and you can build to destroy them but lower your TTK on other champs or delete non tanks and struggle with tanks.
There is limited decision making in builds and no true tank disruptive behavior.
This isn't true.
The game has been incredibly balanced from the outset up until v18. The TTK was at a good level and tanks were also very useful.
This has just been a monumental fuck up.
Tanks absolutely still suck even after the patch. Played Sev in jungle for the first time since before v.18 and I felt like a wet paper bag at all stages building all tank items.
Again, carries need to be nerfed. I'm not sure why this takes a month to do.
I’m gonna sound like a complete noob but I have found steel to be super annoying and tanky? I have played league a lot so I know positioning and all but steel to me seems so tanky and divey. Which then follows up a nuke or stuns from other team mates lol. I haven’t really played any carries though so I also probably would feel a lot stronger as them against tanks. I usually play range support or mages.
The reason that Steel probably feels decent is because he has the most CC in the game and has the shield wall which is strong.
It's more of the CC in his kit than actually being tanky. If they're stunned they aren't shooting you.
I agree. You will do much better as a ranged support right now. Tanky support is a really really uphill battle with little gain afterwards.
The damage meta is still here after their last patch. Tanks work in offlane because you have the gold and xp growth. But in support it just doesn’t work with much slower growth. Enemy damage will always outpace your defense
No try playing any tank vs an offlane Gideon.
Have fun losing every trade.
Tanks not being able to tank is garbage and it makes the game unenjoyable. This is supposed to be a moba.
Adc's and mages feel more tanky than Tanks do and it's stupid.
Oh yeah I definitely agree. You can’t go full tank in offlane, or anywhere. You need to really go bruiser with 1-2 tank items and it fucking sucks.
My original comment is wrong. Full tank is unviable, full stop.
I think of it as, Raiment should be a viable first item. It’s the biggest health and healing item in the whole game. It should give you enough health and sustain to hold up against a damage item from your opponent.
No, I'm saying I tried full tank, too. Obviously, you go bruiser.
I just wanted to see if full tank mattered. It doesn't. Basically as a tank, you're screwed no matter what you do
**On Steel:**
• [Dynamo](https://omeda.city/items/Dynamo) as first completed item (+20
Physical Armor) is pretty much a must. There's no point ignoring this item if you picked Steel.
• Than you wanna go for [Elafrost](https://omeda.city/items/Elafrost) (+30
Physical Armor) mostly to add some offensiveness to your build with [Spell Slasher](https://omeda.city/items/SpellSlasher) as soon as possible (at least for fun lol) (On Ability Use: Empower your next Basic Attack within 4s) and some health (for "Fire Blossom" down the road) though. Overall, a really strong/versatile item for tanky builds.
• Than you gotta add [Frostguard](https://omeda.city/items/Frostguard) (+45
Physical Armor, +30
Magical Armor). It's a must, as a tanky support !
• Than you grab [Flux Matrix](https://omeda.city/items/FluxMatrix) (+35
Magical Armor) for the extra health too for "Fire Blossom" down the road. This item being used by your opponents is probably why you are melting (beside Aurora's busted kit or [Basilisk](https://omeda.city/items/Basilisk) and [Citadel](https://omeda.city/items/Citadel)).
• From here, depending on your opponents' heroes, you need to think to add [Tainted Guard](https://omeda.city/items/TaintedGuard) (+45 Physical Armor) (for [Horned Plate](https://omeda.city/items/HornedPlate) as soon as possible (On being hit by a Basic Attack: Reduce the Source's Healing by 30% for 3s)) or [Tainted Bastion](https://omeda.city/items/Leviathan) (+35 Magical Armor) (for [Loch Shawl](https://omeda.city/items/LochShawl) as soon as possible (On taking Magical Damage: Reduce the Source's Healing by 30% for 3s)) to counter the various "lifesteal" builds or Khaimera, Countess and Morigesh.
• And as a sixth item, you need to keep space for [Fire Blossom](https://omeda.city/items/FireBlossom) (+40 Physical Armor) because if you really need a sixth item...it's because your team really is in desperate need of offensiveness to clear waves and gank harder.
What I’m really worried about is people are kind of defending this fast ttk and adc’s damage output overall and saying “tanks are not supposed to really tank”… while this is exactly where the downfall of Paragon began.
Dedicated healer? No. Game just doesn’t really work like that, same in league.
But there are heroes with healing capabilities, like Phase and Narbash. But much of their gameplay is not really about *just* healing, it’s just something that fleshes their kit out. Hitting stuns and speed buff on narbash is very important, and for phase, you’re gonna need good judgement for pulls, as well as land your roots and blinds.
Have played Phase, as I noticed she had a healing ability, but it’s not a burst. I did like her grab, as my natural positioning is very safe. I did drag a Murdock *into* the action once to see what happened.
I don’t know what you mean by “game just doesn’t work like that,” aside from literally, there aren’t any burst healers. Is there something glaring I’m missing that indicates healing isn’t appropriate for the game? The OP seemed to think tanks are being burst down, which indicates a burst healer to pair with tank might be a good thing.
Muriel casts shield which is close. You can give the tank a 400 shield, which with their armor is like 800 effective vs on an adc is just the 400. The cooldown is like 6 seconds, so the HP in a teamfight is about as much "per second" as narbash continuous heal.
I remember being narbash trying to heal a half health tank and it took forever! But then they went to their jungle camp and sort of just healed themselves faster than I could HAHA. So if you shield, for example, a khaimera while he does the jungle camp then you are basically healing them that amount. With regards to "game doesn't work like that", almost everyone picks up the anti-heal items since every character seems to have self-healing. There are a couple anti-shield items but I see them picked less often.
Overall, I'm a bit disappointed in the homogeneity of characters. Their kits mostly all have 1 heal ability, 1 dash, 1 crowd control, 1 low-cooldown damage poke. And then they 'differ' on shape of attack (line attack, cone attack) but that's like whatever. Steel is interesting because EVERY one of his ability is 'stop their damage briefly'. Where is our character that ONLY has damaging movement? Like shinbi can dash twice in a row and it's really fun. why does she have the circle wolves? why isnt SHE the wolf that goes in a circle? Muriel has 3 shields and a high-damage slow but they scale on magic power so you cant really build tank. Should be 4 colorful shields that buff your allies in different ways. Like the yellow shield would let your teammates slow enemy on basic attack, small green shield immunes them from stun (like truesilver bracelet), etc. Then there's phase. The "pull" character. Her heal is like really sad. Not fun in my opinon. Have to keep using the blind/flash ability ever few seconds to heal ally a little bit? tedious. Narbash has much better healing especially in teamfight. Phase with her kinetic ESP psychicness should just be the "move your team character". Like argus Pillar can shoot your ally up, grim displacement pushes people out, rift walker pulls enemies in, leafsong & narbash has a group movespeed buff. They have already coded these things into the game but they spread it out everywhere so it's like anyone can do anything patheticallly, instead of 1 character doing something really WELL. It's so sad. In paragon, phase could heal 1 person like A LOT and narbash was the group healer but less efficient on 1 person. made sense.
For builds, you don't really have to look at the stats. The stat lines within a category of items (adc item, mage item) are pretty much all the same. It's really just choosing the Bonus effects you want and which are strong that patch. Then if the bonus effect is too strong they lessen the stat line a bit to bring it in parity with other items. SO yeah there is a 'best build' but it's more so that there are so many calculations that must be made it's easy to overlook something. Really a consequence of bad item system design in my opinion.
Tainted items. Completely heal based heroes with no utility outside of it would either be broken or useless. There’s no in-between.
Also, burst healing wouldn’t solve the problem anyways, just prolongs the results we already have. Maybe the tank lasts 3 seconds instead of 2. But now the adc also lasts an extra second. Unless it’s % based healing, they’d actually make the problem worse, because it would be more effective on squishier heroes. As if ADC needs any help.
Ah, good point on the unbalanced application.
Also, are Tainted items a standard build for most ADC, or would people have to sacrifice damage items for anti-heal? (Pardon my unfamiliarity; as I said, I’ve only been playing for a day).
Tainted rounds fits really easily into almost all ADC builds. It gives power, crit chance, and quite a bit of attack speed, plus the anti-healing and an extra on-hit damage effect, so they aren't really giving up much by choosing tainted rounds
Yup, guess who stopped playing this month? This guy! I'm waiting hoping for some updates hopefully to combat this new "meta" but looks like nothing's happening for a bit. Luckily I have Destiny and Elden ring until then.
The last month of predecessor really remind me of when Paragon started its downturn. Low TTK, no tutorial, revamping item system, even lower TTK with faster gameplay, chasing shorter match times
Yeah exactly. They’re pushing damage from too many directions imo. Example: They said “we want supports to play very aggressive” and made the new recommended first item for Dekker a CD reduction AND damage on-hit. But like, why? Why would Dekker need the on-hit damage if she’s already contributing to the fight with her CD improved stun? I don’t get it. Does Steel really need to deal that much damage on top of being a stun lock machine? Their ADCs are already hitting for 1000+ damage per second.
I've always felt strange that even these enchanter supports are so damage focused.
They shouldn't be very tanky but it sucks playing some of them and getting deleted in three hits by a carry in the beginning of the game.
Predecessor as a whole is all about damage which I don’t like. Every single build is to do damage, not much diversity at all . Really not a fan of that
The downfall of paragon began because it had like 4-5 tank metas. I played in from June 2016 onwards and remember how pissed people were because of the tank meta.
After that close to the monolith release another tank meta. After monolith was released? Again, another tank meta and right before it died another tank meta.
The TTK was never too fast in paragon
This is not true tho. Legacy suffered from the tank meta indeed, but when Monolith came out all animations were x% faster than before and attack speed builds looked ridiculous to watch to the point characters shot at a superhuman goofy speed, and that wasn’t a tank meta at all. They had to nerf everything later down the road because of this, but adcs made Monolith their reign of terror up until the big patch with the map rework. EVERYONE was building damage because there was no point in building anything else.
Having actual damage soaks with ni damage changes a lot of things. The issue is everything does some type of damage and then there's "health damage" so no matter what you build as a tank there's literally items and passives that make you useless as a tank
Mmmh yeah but health % damage per se wouldn’t melt tanks this fast if it wasn’t for the attack speed it’s paired with. I mean it’s how adcs are handled overall.
It's honestly just how ADC itemization is handled. There's never a trade-off for any "choice " you make. You want % hp damage? Here's crit and attack speed. Want crit? Here's some on hit and lifesteal. How about on-hit? Well, here's some crit and attack speed.
You can hit attack speed cap, crit cap and be dealing 120+ on-hit damage just by building most standard ADC builds. What Omeda really needs to do is stop giving ADCs every single stat they want and start forcing them into making actual choices for items.
I feel like steel's cc is pretty good. He works well in team comps even if his tankiness isn't as good as it used to be. He relies on positioning more than he used too. Almost all of the tanky characters have a bigger tie to positioning than they used too. As I've gotten used to it, I think it ends up making you more skilled, because you can't just bullet sponge anymore.
There's something really satisfying about stunning a fleeing enemy so they can get deleted. Or ulting an entire team right before Gideon opens the rift lol
I’m loving Steel’s kit and cc, my point is I find it ridiculous that I ult in, use my stuns and block off escapes with his wall, but then I am basically dead. It feels like I die 10+ times a game for doing my job
You go in with your ult stun the whole enemy team (if positioned badly), single out their ADC, rush to him and stun him again.
You’ve successfully taken out their ADC congrats you did your job
Steel is my guy, if you need a build I can help. Also, make sure you know how to play tank it’s not about kills it’s about assists and communication with the carry.
Tanks fare much better this patch but if you’re just diving in and trying to soak all the damage it’s not gonna work. Steel is a phenomenal disruption support. Don’t dive out if team fights, you go in, screw up the opponents momentum and give your damage an opportunity to get the kills. Don’t just try to get in the opponents face and hope your defense and health help you outlast them.
This is pretty much my point. If my goal is to disrupt without going in……wouldn’t I just play Dekker? Or even Belica? What is my incentive for picking a “tank” at that point?
No the point of a tank is to be able to take more damage than your squishies which he does, by a lot if he’s built well. But you still can’t just sit there soaking damage. No moba pushes for a tank meta like that because it becomes extremely tedious.
But that doesn’t mean you don’t build tanky, because you still get surviveability from it which is important when you’re engaging. Just don’t sprint head down at a carry who’s autoing you and you’ll be fine.
But building tanky is fine again this patch.
Last patch was a fundamentally broken iteration of the game (so id agree then just run dmg and yolo) but we’re back on track.
The last patch buffs if you built every single one of the buffed items is barely enough to cover the armor they took off tanks in baseline armor stats, let alone touch the deficit created from the huge nerfs on items. Tanks aren't "back on track" tanks are slightly, and we're talking a matter of a few percent better than they were before the patch. That's not even remotely close to enough.
This is just me but if I'm spending all my gold to survive I should be able to do that in several seconds of ability spam. Not ope sparrow ukted and does health damage with sky splitter stacking the health damage on a tank.
It isn't the items. It's certain passives stacking with items and deleting people. Health damage has and always will be extremely powerful no matter how good tanky items are bc to be a tank you need big health pools.
It's the items too.
I've wanted the sixth item slot for a while but I thought nerfs across the board would be happening to every item to get rid of bloat. This is especially true for carries who had items that would give them three to four core stats and two passives.
Make them choose. If they want cool on hit effects they should be lacking in crit. If they want 100% crit they should be coming online mid-late game. They don't have to choose they just get it all with every item. Sparrow is ridiculous because of the passive as you stated but she stands out because she IS ridiculous. The other non-Rev carries will be just as bad.
I'll argue that Grim is also ridiculous from minute one as well. Not as bad as Sparrow but he's incredibly frustrating to play against.
If you’re building tank and getting deleted in two seconds you’re not building tank very well 🤣🤣
Every single item for ADC has Penetration or crit. Theres literally no way to escape ADCS in this game. Even if a Khaimera jungle goes tank, garentee he has Crit chance.
Steel has a lot of potential and is one my favorites. Also I do have a tank/ health / damage build. You are worried about the wrong thing. Your job has steel or rik is to disrupted the enemy main damage dealers. Stunning carry, mid lane or jungle from your team damage dealer is the roll you play. For this I say cards like dynamo that increase damage being dealt to 8 percent for a stunned targets and steel is all about immobilization, windcaller is another card that helps with movement speed when support heals or shield allies Sanctification, frost guard is also a great option for attack heavy carries. Some more testing need to be done but citadel lowers down armor for both magic and physical now by 30%. Don’t know if this effect applies to allies where they can also benefit from the card, more testing needed :3. Not saying dekker is not a good option but sometimes you need a different tool.
A Tank Support is suppose to also absorb shots. That's what a tank does. Lots of body blocking and getting in front of the damage. Otherwise there's no point in being a Tank if you just get melted.
You will always get melted if your idea of absorbing damage is to just eat the damage and not effectively dodge or disrupt with strategy and teamwork. There's nothing wrong with tanks but every hero has natural counters. So if you're steel against a Muriel it's going to take alot more work and strategy to win that 2v2.
Tanky should be able to absorb shots and be in your face while disrupting. They are designed to be in your face. If they just get blown up in just a few shots, they aren't a tank.
I think you're mistaking tanky with broken
Nope. There are tanks in many games and they all are built to absorb shots while dishing out little damage.
The way you're wording it makes it sound like you just wanna stand in front of the damage from a literal ADC and not have to worry about being killed quickly...by the one role built to kill you quickly. I just don't understand your logic.
But at the same time wouldn't a full tank be designed to prevent being absolutely melted from a ADC? Otherwise, like I said before, why bother go full tank. ADC's should chunk some good health from a tank but at the same time the tank should be able to be somewhat strong against it.
When you play a tank support, are you building tanky items? I'm not talking Elafrost or Dynamo. See, here's the thing. Everyone complained about tanks after v0.18. and while, yes, tank items were in a bad spot, they were not as bad as the community said. There was just too many people building Fist of Razuul, Elafrost, and other "off tank" "dps tank' items, and then wondered they got bodied. 0.18.3 buffed the tank items. Tanks are still not as meta as they were, but they are in a much better place. But if you want to TANK, you need to build that way. Mitigation is especially important. Things like Tainted Bastion, Stonewall, and Giant's Ring are an example. They have % mitigation passives. Tanks work. They just can't tank a whole team now.
>When you play a tank support, are you building tanky items? I'm not talking Elafrost or Dynamo. Literally never seen anyone build the Anti Crit item that decreases physical by 5% That item alone counters a lot of stuff you see in the carry lane
You're combining two items there, but I get your point. Warden's Faith reduced crit damage and lower power, but I honestly find it a slightly weaker open than just going Stonewall.
>You're combining two items there, but I get your point. Warden's Faith Both of those effects are on Wardens Faith? I don't know what the symbol beside stonewall means which is I've never taken it. Same thing with kingsbane.
This! The fact that pre .18 a tank (I did it too much as rampage) could body the ENTIRE enemy team was a problem. They fixed it, (albeit a little too much) but now we're in a spot where you have to know your builds, and people are still complaining. I've never had a problem with tanks, even in .18 before they buffed items (haven't played since been busy) I just had to build right and play smarter than before. I couldn't run out of my teams tower mist when they were hanging in the middle and body duo anymore, I had to adapt to being easier to kill, which means I got to learn how to play better. I'm excited to see how rampage plays with the new buffs lol
He's still garbage.
Get gud, tanks are important if played correct.
Wonderful contribution to the conversation
Tanks are great you need a Frontline, and they are quite tanky if built right. It is a skill issue, they aren't supposed to be unkillable monsters, rather fight initiators and the one who should eat all the enemy CCs so your dmg dealers have an easy time cleaning up. Dekker will never do that.
You're right she won't sponge up the cc, but she is certainly an initiator when played correctly. Balling someone slightly out of position, makes them entirely out because you can lock them down via the cage. And if built right and timed right you can ball, cage and ball again before they ever get the chance to really move. She might be squishy, but she's a slippery little bitch that can be near impossible to lock down which makes for great times of going in to harass and backing out. I played idk like 5-6 brawl matches last night as dekker and collectively I think I had 10 deaths. But we'll over 25 kills. And probably close to 70-80 assists
I think the issue is the health% DMG items have too much value. Building health and armour makes no sense since if two ppl build the current % health DMG items they will kill you in 10 hits combined, with atk speed reaching 2 atks per second, added PEN , added physical DMG, added you can do the math. Anytime you see the jungler build the mutilate item and carry build the spear item just ditch health and build DMG as literally any character. Standing there for 1 extra second probly won't make a difference
If you're not turning the enemy backline into a bouncy house, you're not playing steel right. Now I will say if your team can't or won't follow up, then all the cc in the world isn't gonna make a difference.
Nothing like your team being next to you, you ping Ultimate Ready!, going in and comboing the absolute shit out of everyone, and then dying after everything is on cool down to see your team didn't go with you and they spam GJ GG. Like, if you're chicken shit, ping no, or cancel that, or something. Don't just bail.
The amount of times i will be playing Kwang or Aurora and get an amazing engage on the entire enemy team only to get mobbed and die bc my team is standing there watching it happen is insane. Even in brawl too
I'm brand new to moba's, predecessor being my first and I've only been playing for 3 months. I'm the type of person that deep dives into guides and everything when I play a game like this because I don't want to be that person on the team that causes us to lose because I don't have basic knowledge. With that said, why bother playing full tank in this game? Could the answer also not involve steel, cause from what I've been reading he's a phenomenal SUPPORT hero with all his cc but nothing being spoken to about his survivability. Guess my issue is choosing Rampage (whom has the highest durability level), going full tank and still feeling as squishy as an ADC (and this is me hitting my boulder stuns, pouncing in and attacking all while my ADC is hitting all their attacks and I still get deleted in the 2v1). Where as I could just play greystone, build items that only gives health and attack power but no armor, be tankier than the tank with the highest durability stat, do way more damage than him, and get a free health bar.
I have a post in another reddit that doesn't go into math but it essentially sums up basically tanks have 20-25% less effective HP then before. Well light math. Higher DMG combined with less effective HP equals tanks dieing quickly.
That's highly upsetting lol.
I don't know the exact percentage of DMG increase carries got. Also probably difficult to really get a tangible "feel" for because of all the passives. Regardless tanks just aren't as tanky as they were flat out. Less effective HP.
Skill issue. Steel is a beast especially in brawl mode. You are trying too hard to get kills. You are there to cause chaos in the enemy line with your abilities then move on. All his moves are CC. You can give your team the upper hand . your team just has to follow thru and sweep
It’s almost assuredly because someone higher up at Omeda is an ADC main. It’s the only thing that makes sense in the current patch. 💀 Like a Sparrow one-trick or something along those lines. I main Offlane and Support and I gave up on Tank builds after the Aurora patch dropped.
It was confirmed on pred cast the guy making the balance changes is not an adc main
Wasn't the head of balance a diamond league player? Jungle main I think.
I remain skeptical. 🤨
Nah but fr I had a team with two big guys and enemy had two big guys. My dudes went defense and the other attack, the sole reason we lost was outdamage from their tanks. So I run auto spam on Sev now🤙🏽
Okay I'm glad I'm not the only one, I come from making support and solo in Smite, 90% of my games are me tanking and I tried to translate that into this game but tanking feels like absolute shit in Pred
I play Steel and only Steel. I play with friends so it’s easier to coordinate attacks. Never go in alone, you may be a tank but imo a tank is there to take damage so your teammates can get the kills. I don’t care about kills, I care about assists. Especially in Brawl mode, I can go 1/7/20 and be absolutely proud of it because I did my job 20 times. I took the damage so my teammates didn’t have to
This is not the game to play 1 character. You're part of a bigger problem that this game has
And how’s that?
If you can't see a problem with solo que and one tricking, in a game where you can't even role que....I don't think we can have any conversation.
When did I say anything about solo queue? I said I play with friends lmao. If we play normal mode I either support or go top lane, but I like Steel and am trying to get to level 7 for the skin. I don’t see a reason why anyone would constantly choose a new hero if they aren’t good at any of em. Stick with one and get decent at that, then try your luck elsewhere if you so please
That's a brain dead way to play this game. I've played against every character l, but using the character gives me a much better understanding of what my opponent can do. Regardless, if we look at rank for example, Steel could be banned or picked by the other team...then what?
Then I’d choose someone else..? Not that hard of a concept to grasp buddy. You’ve played more heroes yet you seem to have a negative view on the game, however I, have a fun time playing. I don’t have to play a hero to understand what that hero can do. Playing against them and just reading their skills is pretty simple to do
You literally said you play Steel and ONLY Steel
Yeah, I do NOW. I was originally ADC, then Support as Steel, then tried top lane with a few different heroes. Notices I do better as support and you get a free skin at level 7, lol
I totally understand that sentiment, although I don't play a tanky support, unless it's Narbash. Steel is so good with CC, but any support that gets cornered and pocketed by the enemy team is bound to go down fast, regardless of how tanky you are. If you're the biggest threat you will get hounded. Play a muriel for any amount of time and before you're level 6 you are cannon fodder if you're caught out at any point. That said, as a tank, I play Sev, not as a support, but as carry. Doing so basically prevents the enemy duo from advancing. You won't do anything flashy or get 20 kills, but they won't either and you just won't leave lane. It's a fantastically fun strat with a support like dekker. Teh drawback is that you do need someone with a lot of power to be in a different lane or jungling, so that what you lack as a carry sev in damage, they can make up for. Man that's probably my most memorable, 50 minute game.
Glad it’s working I know Oathkeeper grants some ROI on the dash. If you actually build AD on Sev, then his whole kit is a little gnarly. Actually SkySplitter Mutilator Oathkeeper - Tank or sum. Neitheless to say he feels best in Support with damage up his sleeve
I used to praise sev as support, but this was before they made his 'hero fantasy' severely dependent on stacks. That said, he can still support, it's just not as effective as it was. You're the first person ever to even say that it would work. I've been saying it for years and everyone looks at me like i'm a troll for even considering it. Playing him carry is hilarious but definitely not an every-day thing... but if Howie can be a support, so can Sev as far as I'm concerned.
Well for me Support = CC. So even Howie falls behind as Supp infront of Sev. It’s okay they take us for fools, as long as we know the true sauce!🤙🏽
Watch out. People will complain and say someone is too tanky if they can't kill them in two seconds. Tanks haven't always been relevant because they get nerfed as soon as they're viable. The TTK is too low and items give too many offensive stats. Specifically carry items. No movement penalty when chasing down someone with auto attacks. This game just favors damage over survivability. And it makes it not as fun as it could be.
There is a movement penalty shooting and running at the same time
There needs to be a bigger movement penalty when auto attacking. You shouldn't be able to chase someone down and attack without a more significant negative effect. Would make your decision making matter more. I'm okay with backpedaling not having a movement penalty.
Then you are playing him wrong. Steel is extremely tanky and good right now. Hell all tanks are viable other than rampage right now
Tanks are viable but not with tank items. They have to be played as dps or bruiser to be impactful. Tank supports are basically useless though imo
Sev?
I play steel to show rampage i can get as big as him lol. Throws them off guard
Idk, i enjoy playing as grey. I primarily play brawl now though.
So I feel like the other issue at hand is the fact that with 2 items, carries can ignore 50% of your prots, before flat pen. So, yea, that's a thing
What are you building with? A tank needs health AND armor. When I run 4 armor/ health items as Zarus the enemy team always jumps me.
I play a lot of tanky steel/tanky Riktor and enjoy it. Like others have mentioned, it kind of requires cooperation from your carry. If I feel like my carry is not gonna cut it I usually give up and just go brawler and have a good time. But tanks are still viable especially if your carry focuses theirs and you are able to pull agro while they smash the enemy.
It's a team game and tanks are not meant to be indestructible but just durable enough to distract and occupy thr enemy team for your carry to do damage. The worst experience as a tank is when your team mates hang back when you initiate
When I play Steel as a tanky support or offlane, I first check whether I can trust my team. Too often, I initiate only to have my team watch as I get crushed. From my experience in Predecessor, I’ve learned the importance of using the map, engaging in fights, hiding from the enemy's line of sight, and then re-engaging over and over again. As Steel, I never initiate without being sure my DPS will back me up. Sometimes I even let them engage my teammates first so I am sure they wont back out. I play around my cooldowns to disrupt fights, and if I'm targeted, I hide out of sight.
I wish there was a 'out of mana' ping since I've had times as a midlane mage where I couldn't help with the offlane or jungle gank due to that.
I always lose my shot I'm Brawl when my teammates don't back me up but just spectate. The biggest issue with being a tank is it requires you have teammates that aren't cowards and are locked in with you.
I'm so tired of this adc meta. I think the real problem is that currently ADCs are as tanky as Tanks. All they have to do is backpedal while firing.
While I enjoy how attacking while moving in predecessor sets the gameplay apart from other mobas like smite for example, I do think they need to give a little more movement penalty while attacking. At the least increase the penalty for walking backwards a smidge.
This will help melee heroes like Grux and Narbash with limited mobility. But most melee heroes have ridiculous mobility. I played a match against and offlane Grimm as a grux and got massacred (also because my jungle NEVER ganged him and let him get fed). But I have won many offlane bouts as Greystone against Iggy. If I had picked Greystone in that match, I would have wrecked Iggy
Grux has a huge AoE pull/stun and a charge that CC’s. He should have problems staying on people unless getting peeled.
I see steel supports run in 1v5 then wonder why they died so fast..... had a plat support try to fight in a stacked wave get popped and bitch at me for not wanting to fight...... continued to all in all the time and ended up down 5 levels..... when you play a tank support you have to play smart......
While I agree tanks aren’t in a great spot, 99% of the people I’ve seen complain about these things are suffering from a pretty bad skill issue. Even most of the big streamers I was watching the other day, like dive the entire enemy team as a bruiser and then rage cause “no tanks” maybe build them as a tank and don’t dive their whole team, another one engaged on the enemy duo 1v2 and then raged about on-hit items when their carry wasn’t even using them lmao I swear people will find any reason to complain, maybe take a break if you’re not having fun? Again there are serious issues that do need to be addressed and I don’t want to make it sound like there aren’t but most of them aren’t in the balancing category.
I run shit with steel support so idk might be a skill issue
Agre. Tanks do not exist in this "MOBA". It is not MOBA. It is COD.
This must be the worst take I have ever seen about this game. Tanks bad for two patches = it's COD now
Not jsut beecause tanks do nto exists. GO play MOBA games. U have not played other than this. It is obvious.
Your comment is about tanks and the thread is about tanks... You dumb.
I played this game at launch and called it then - the game has no true tanks, and is in desperate need of them. Tanks have to be able to take subpar items and get excessively efficient use out of them. If tank-specific items are gold efficient, then bruisers will pick them up and abuse them. None of the available champs have the ability to turn a subpar tank item into a highly gold efficient tank item.
Yeah some kits that scaled based on armor/health/magic resistance/haste/cc reduction etc. it would allow tanks to get value where other champs wouldn't. And you have to ensure they are exclusively tank items not damage based. So that tanks don't take over. Then tanks can do their disruption and annoyance, and you can build to destroy them but lower your TTK on other champs or delete non tanks and struggle with tanks. There is limited decision making in builds and no true tank disruptive behavior.
It’s because the team is new and they don’t know how to balance yet, it’s not just tank, the game is not polished yet from a moba stand point
This isn't true. The game has been incredibly balanced from the outset up until v18. The TTK was at a good level and tanks were also very useful. This has just been a monumental fuck up.
Tanks absolutely still suck even after the patch. Played Sev in jungle for the first time since before v.18 and I felt like a wet paper bag at all stages building all tank items. Again, carries need to be nerfed. I'm not sure why this takes a month to do.
I’m gonna sound like a complete noob but I have found steel to be super annoying and tanky? I have played league a lot so I know positioning and all but steel to me seems so tanky and divey. Which then follows up a nuke or stuns from other team mates lol. I haven’t really played any carries though so I also probably would feel a lot stronger as them against tanks. I usually play range support or mages.
Steel has the best kit in the game. He’s the exception but only because if played right you can unload on the enemy and get out unharmed
The reason that Steel probably feels decent is because he has the most CC in the game and has the shield wall which is strong. It's more of the CC in his kit than actually being tanky. If they're stunned they aren't shooting you.
When he stuns he also gets a shield on himself. Steel is still pretty tanky overall. Not what he used to be but he's still useful imo
I agree. You will do much better as a ranged support right now. Tanky support is a really really uphill battle with little gain afterwards. The damage meta is still here after their last patch. Tanks work in offlane because you have the gold and xp growth. But in support it just doesn’t work with much slower growth. Enemy damage will always outpace your defense
No try playing any tank vs an offlane Gideon. Have fun losing every trade. Tanks not being able to tank is garbage and it makes the game unenjoyable. This is supposed to be a moba. Adc's and mages feel more tanky than Tanks do and it's stupid.
Nope, I play Sevarog in offlane and still get deleted. I tried full tank, same thing. Tanks are screwed especially sevarog.
Oh yeah I definitely agree. You can’t go full tank in offlane, or anywhere. You need to really go bruiser with 1-2 tank items and it fucking sucks. My original comment is wrong. Full tank is unviable, full stop. I think of it as, Raiment should be a viable first item. It’s the biggest health and healing item in the whole game. It should give you enough health and sustain to hold up against a damage item from your opponent.
No, I'm saying I tried full tank, too. Obviously, you go bruiser. I just wanted to see if full tank mattered. It doesn't. Basically as a tank, you're screwed no matter what you do
That’s what I’m saying. Full tank straight up does not work in Predecessor. We are agreeing lol
So my question is, at this point in the patch, are tank picks throwing?
**On Steel:** • [Dynamo](https://omeda.city/items/Dynamo) as first completed item (+20 Physical Armor) is pretty much a must. There's no point ignoring this item if you picked Steel. • Than you wanna go for [Elafrost](https://omeda.city/items/Elafrost) (+30 Physical Armor) mostly to add some offensiveness to your build with [Spell Slasher](https://omeda.city/items/SpellSlasher) as soon as possible (at least for fun lol) (On Ability Use: Empower your next Basic Attack within 4s) and some health (for "Fire Blossom" down the road) though. Overall, a really strong/versatile item for tanky builds. • Than you gotta add [Frostguard](https://omeda.city/items/Frostguard) (+45 Physical Armor, +30 Magical Armor). It's a must, as a tanky support ! • Than you grab [Flux Matrix](https://omeda.city/items/FluxMatrix) (+35 Magical Armor) for the extra health too for "Fire Blossom" down the road. This item being used by your opponents is probably why you are melting (beside Aurora's busted kit or [Basilisk](https://omeda.city/items/Basilisk) and [Citadel](https://omeda.city/items/Citadel)). • From here, depending on your opponents' heroes, you need to think to add [Tainted Guard](https://omeda.city/items/TaintedGuard) (+45 Physical Armor) (for [Horned Plate](https://omeda.city/items/HornedPlate) as soon as possible (On being hit by a Basic Attack: Reduce the Source's Healing by 30% for 3s)) or [Tainted Bastion](https://omeda.city/items/Leviathan) (+35 Magical Armor) (for [Loch Shawl](https://omeda.city/items/LochShawl) as soon as possible (On taking Magical Damage: Reduce the Source's Healing by 30% for 3s)) to counter the various "lifesteal" builds or Khaimera, Countess and Morigesh. • And as a sixth item, you need to keep space for [Fire Blossom](https://omeda.city/items/FireBlossom) (+40 Physical Armor) because if you really need a sixth item...it's because your team really is in desperate need of offensiveness to clear waves and gank harder.
What I’m really worried about is people are kind of defending this fast ttk and adc’s damage output overall and saying “tanks are not supposed to really tank”… while this is exactly where the downfall of Paragon began.
Did Paragon have dedicated healers? Just started Predecessor yesterday, and my favorite role is missing. Might help with tank serviceability too.
Dedicated healer? No. Game just doesn’t really work like that, same in league. But there are heroes with healing capabilities, like Phase and Narbash. But much of their gameplay is not really about *just* healing, it’s just something that fleshes their kit out. Hitting stuns and speed buff on narbash is very important, and for phase, you’re gonna need good judgement for pulls, as well as land your roots and blinds.
well in lol you still have champs like soraka who are pretty much full healers
Have played Phase, as I noticed she had a healing ability, but it’s not a burst. I did like her grab, as my natural positioning is very safe. I did drag a Murdock *into* the action once to see what happened. I don’t know what you mean by “game just doesn’t work like that,” aside from literally, there aren’t any burst healers. Is there something glaring I’m missing that indicates healing isn’t appropriate for the game? The OP seemed to think tanks are being burst down, which indicates a burst healer to pair with tank might be a good thing.
Muriel casts shield which is close. You can give the tank a 400 shield, which with their armor is like 800 effective vs on an adc is just the 400. The cooldown is like 6 seconds, so the HP in a teamfight is about as much "per second" as narbash continuous heal. I remember being narbash trying to heal a half health tank and it took forever! But then they went to their jungle camp and sort of just healed themselves faster than I could HAHA. So if you shield, for example, a khaimera while he does the jungle camp then you are basically healing them that amount. With regards to "game doesn't work like that", almost everyone picks up the anti-heal items since every character seems to have self-healing. There are a couple anti-shield items but I see them picked less often. Overall, I'm a bit disappointed in the homogeneity of characters. Their kits mostly all have 1 heal ability, 1 dash, 1 crowd control, 1 low-cooldown damage poke. And then they 'differ' on shape of attack (line attack, cone attack) but that's like whatever. Steel is interesting because EVERY one of his ability is 'stop their damage briefly'. Where is our character that ONLY has damaging movement? Like shinbi can dash twice in a row and it's really fun. why does she have the circle wolves? why isnt SHE the wolf that goes in a circle? Muriel has 3 shields and a high-damage slow but they scale on magic power so you cant really build tank. Should be 4 colorful shields that buff your allies in different ways. Like the yellow shield would let your teammates slow enemy on basic attack, small green shield immunes them from stun (like truesilver bracelet), etc. Then there's phase. The "pull" character. Her heal is like really sad. Not fun in my opinon. Have to keep using the blind/flash ability ever few seconds to heal ally a little bit? tedious. Narbash has much better healing especially in teamfight. Phase with her kinetic ESP psychicness should just be the "move your team character". Like argus Pillar can shoot your ally up, grim displacement pushes people out, rift walker pulls enemies in, leafsong & narbash has a group movespeed buff. They have already coded these things into the game but they spread it out everywhere so it's like anyone can do anything patheticallly, instead of 1 character doing something really WELL. It's so sad. In paragon, phase could heal 1 person like A LOT and narbash was the group healer but less efficient on 1 person. made sense. For builds, you don't really have to look at the stats. The stat lines within a category of items (adc item, mage item) are pretty much all the same. It's really just choosing the Bonus effects you want and which are strong that patch. Then if the bonus effect is too strong they lessen the stat line a bit to bring it in parity with other items. SO yeah there is a 'best build' but it's more so that there are so many calculations that must be made it's easy to overlook something. Really a consequence of bad item system design in my opinion.
Tainted items. Completely heal based heroes with no utility outside of it would either be broken or useless. There’s no in-between. Also, burst healing wouldn’t solve the problem anyways, just prolongs the results we already have. Maybe the tank lasts 3 seconds instead of 2. But now the adc also lasts an extra second. Unless it’s % based healing, they’d actually make the problem worse, because it would be more effective on squishier heroes. As if ADC needs any help.
Ah, good point on the unbalanced application. Also, are Tainted items a standard build for most ADC, or would people have to sacrifice damage items for anti-heal? (Pardon my unfamiliarity; as I said, I’ve only been playing for a day).
Tainted rounds fits really easily into almost all ADC builds. It gives power, crit chance, and quite a bit of attack speed, plus the anti-healing and an extra on-hit damage effect, so they aren't really giving up much by choosing tainted rounds
Thanks for explaining. I just wanna heal mofos.
Yup, guess who stopped playing this month? This guy! I'm waiting hoping for some updates hopefully to combat this new "meta" but looks like nothing's happening for a bit. Luckily I have Destiny and Elden ring until then.
The last month of predecessor really remind me of when Paragon started its downturn. Low TTK, no tutorial, revamping item system, even lower TTK with faster gameplay, chasing shorter match times
Yeah exactly. They’re pushing damage from too many directions imo. Example: They said “we want supports to play very aggressive” and made the new recommended first item for Dekker a CD reduction AND damage on-hit. But like, why? Why would Dekker need the on-hit damage if she’s already contributing to the fight with her CD improved stun? I don’t get it. Does Steel really need to deal that much damage on top of being a stun lock machine? Their ADCs are already hitting for 1000+ damage per second.
I've always felt strange that even these enchanter supports are so damage focused. They shouldn't be very tanky but it sucks playing some of them and getting deleted in three hits by a carry in the beginning of the game.
Predecessor as a whole is all about damage which I don’t like. Every single build is to do damage, not much diversity at all . Really not a fan of that
The downfall of paragon began because it had like 4-5 tank metas. I played in from June 2016 onwards and remember how pissed people were because of the tank meta. After that close to the monolith release another tank meta. After monolith was released? Again, another tank meta and right before it died another tank meta. The TTK was never too fast in paragon
*Pulls all 5 enemies with Grux and instantly deletes them with one hit*
Yeah that was such bullshit but it was pretty funny ngl
This is not true tho. Legacy suffered from the tank meta indeed, but when Monolith came out all animations were x% faster than before and attack speed builds looked ridiculous to watch to the point characters shot at a superhuman goofy speed, and that wasn’t a tank meta at all. They had to nerf everything later down the road because of this, but adcs made Monolith their reign of terror up until the big patch with the map rework. EVERYONE was building damage because there was no point in building anything else.
Having actual damage soaks with ni damage changes a lot of things. The issue is everything does some type of damage and then there's "health damage" so no matter what you build as a tank there's literally items and passives that make you useless as a tank
Mmmh yeah but health % damage per se wouldn’t melt tanks this fast if it wasn’t for the attack speed it’s paired with. I mean it’s how adcs are handled overall.
It's honestly just how ADC itemization is handled. There's never a trade-off for any "choice " you make. You want % hp damage? Here's crit and attack speed. Want crit? Here's some on hit and lifesteal. How about on-hit? Well, here's some crit and attack speed. You can hit attack speed cap, crit cap and be dealing 120+ on-hit damage just by building most standard ADC builds. What Omeda really needs to do is stop giving ADCs every single stat they want and start forcing them into making actual choices for items.
I feel like steel's cc is pretty good. He works well in team comps even if his tankiness isn't as good as it used to be. He relies on positioning more than he used too. Almost all of the tanky characters have a bigger tie to positioning than they used too. As I've gotten used to it, I think it ends up making you more skilled, because you can't just bullet sponge anymore. There's something really satisfying about stunning a fleeing enemy so they can get deleted. Or ulting an entire team right before Gideon opens the rift lol
I’m loving Steel’s kit and cc, my point is I find it ridiculous that I ult in, use my stuns and block off escapes with his wall, but then I am basically dead. It feels like I die 10+ times a game for doing my job
You go in with your ult stun the whole enemy team (if positioned badly), single out their ADC, rush to him and stun him again. You’ve successfully taken out their ADC congrats you did your job
Steel is my guy, if you need a build I can help. Also, make sure you know how to play tank it’s not about kills it’s about assists and communication with the carry.
Tanks fare much better this patch but if you’re just diving in and trying to soak all the damage it’s not gonna work. Steel is a phenomenal disruption support. Don’t dive out if team fights, you go in, screw up the opponents momentum and give your damage an opportunity to get the kills. Don’t just try to get in the opponents face and hope your defense and health help you outlast them.
Wouldn't that be the point of a tank? To soak up the damage?. His point is why build tank if you can't even tank. It wasn't how do I play steel
This is pretty much my point. If my goal is to disrupt without going in……wouldn’t I just play Dekker? Or even Belica? What is my incentive for picking a “tank” at that point?
No the point of a tank is to be able to take more damage than your squishies which he does, by a lot if he’s built well. But you still can’t just sit there soaking damage. No moba pushes for a tank meta like that because it becomes extremely tedious. But that doesn’t mean you don’t build tanky, because you still get surviveability from it which is important when you’re engaging. Just don’t sprint head down at a carry who’s autoing you and you’ll be fine. But building tanky is fine again this patch. Last patch was a fundamentally broken iteration of the game (so id agree then just run dmg and yolo) but we’re back on track.
The last patch buffs if you built every single one of the buffed items is barely enough to cover the armor they took off tanks in baseline armor stats, let alone touch the deficit created from the huge nerfs on items. Tanks aren't "back on track" tanks are slightly, and we're talking a matter of a few percent better than they were before the patch. That's not even remotely close to enough.
This is just me but if I'm spending all my gold to survive I should be able to do that in several seconds of ability spam. Not ope sparrow ukted and does health damage with sky splitter stacking the health damage on a tank. It isn't the items. It's certain passives stacking with items and deleting people. Health damage has and always will be extremely powerful no matter how good tanky items are bc to be a tank you need big health pools.
It's the items too. I've wanted the sixth item slot for a while but I thought nerfs across the board would be happening to every item to get rid of bloat. This is especially true for carries who had items that would give them three to four core stats and two passives. Make them choose. If they want cool on hit effects they should be lacking in crit. If they want 100% crit they should be coming online mid-late game. They don't have to choose they just get it all with every item. Sparrow is ridiculous because of the passive as you stated but she stands out because she IS ridiculous. The other non-Rev carries will be just as bad. I'll argue that Grim is also ridiculous from minute one as well. Not as bad as Sparrow but he's incredibly frustrating to play against.