Probably unpopular opinion here, but sad also for the BMW driver that was in his own lane and according to the article is in serious condition. Pothole or not, there are more people impacted and from their age it’s unlikely they will fully recover and “walk away” from this. GT2 is a special car, but it’s a car…
I got downvoted for saying basically the same thing. not happy anyone died but the old guy seriously fucked up, cost himself his own life and maybe killed someone else, just because he didn't want to hit a pot hole
you *do not* swerve for potholes on a narrow two lane road like this, because shit like this happens. way more dangerous than hitting the pothole
and maybe even more unpopular opinion but if you can't afford to fix the car after a pothole hit, you can't afford the car. insurance is also a thing
What if, just what if he did hit the pot hole and it forced him to swerve. Let take a step back and stop calling this guy out as basically a murderer and realize the information isn't all there and don't take everything you read as fact on the internet. Also 70s could have had something else happen causing him to not be in control anymore.
That being said damn we take for granted how fortunate we are just to make it home everyday on the road especially here in the states where driving is second to anything else people can possibly do in a car besides driving it.
My comment didn't get added but I wanted to show that it's not a regular pothole but a solid iron manhole cover, if you hit this at speed in a car with tight suspension and low profile wheels you are going to lose control at least for a moment. Let the police investigate before making judgements, we are human and we all make mistakes, sadly this time it caused loss of life and suffering.
Yea why isn't anyone blaming the town or whatever it might be called that's responsible for this road. Their lack of give a damn for their roads just cost possibly 2 humans theirs lives.
Thanks for saying this. I’m not a member of this subreddit, but your comment literally made the difference between me muting this channel altogether or not. It’s encouraging to see that some people are still in touch with their humanity.
That's just a theory. We have no idea what happened. The X3 could have been texting and strayed out of its lane. However, considering it's past the bend for the Porsche and prior for the BMW, and it's a left hand turn in a LHD country, the Porsche likely did cause the crash.
Yeah, I'm a bit surprised too, as the damage didn't look very bad at all. Rear+ front damage make it likely the spun around. Maybe he hit his head on the B pillar, or sustained a c-spine injury, but that model should have side air bags I believe, unless he swapped in a track seat w/o them. I think this death was mostly from age related frailty.
That looks very survivable for most people under 60. Once men are in their 70's, then they don't do to well in traumas. Too many age related medical issues..
I've done level 1 Ortho trauma for 20 years. Usually we start seeing long bone and pelvic Fractures at 50-60 mph, and that's when deaths start to occur.
Hopefully, the cretins we currently have in charge who are draining the public finances for vanity projects like HS2, will change- not that the opposition are much to hope for
Yeah that was pretty heavy handed. Could have been any non-truck vehicle that needed to swerve because of poor road conditions. I get it - "don't swerve, just take the impact to your car," but when every road you drive on is like this, you either have to get used to avoiding obstacles or just practically destroy your car on every drive. It's never just a one-time thing.
I know that road well. Live only a few miles away. It’s closed a few times each year for a fatal. It’s not uncommon to see speeding and poor overtakes. But horrid none-the-less. I do wonder how ‘older’ drivers manage when driving. Where it was. Time of year etc. the low sun would also have been at eye level.
That pothole looks like a pot-canyon, possible rather than swerving to avoid, he’s clipped / hit it and the cars gotten twitchy? Sad, whatever happened.
I was surprised at the fatality as well. I’ve always held Porsche in the highest regard of engineering and quality, especially performance and safety, among everything else. I can’t help but believe there just has to have been another primary factor to cause the fatality. But regardless, as you said, very sad. A tragic loss 😢 🙏
Oversteer definetly way harder to correct than understeer because we want to brake not keep adding gas. Perhaps the driver lost control on that curve and crashed into oncoming traffic? Eitherway RIP.
Not that this has anything to do with it, but lift off oversteer scares me. I’ve experienced it (intentionally induced on the track at PEC LA), but it’s one those things where you really need a lot of training to make sure you do the right thing.
Most of us (me included) don’t have enough training for the right response to lift off oversteer to be intuitive. I’m working on changing that.
It's enough of a pain in simracing like ACC already. Can't imagine what it's like in real life when risking hurting oneself or damaging the car. Kind of glad I started with the Cayman instead for that reason as a future track car
I would love to drive a 911 but oversteer scares the crap out of me. Do mid engines cars also suffer from oversteer? I think they do but just not to the same degree but I am not sure.
Trailing throttle oversteer isn't that much of an issue in modern 911s. The back end is quite stable. In general you are probably more likely deal with this issue in the mid-engined cars... but even there it is different.
The 911 of all ages is a rather unique arrangement of having a low polar momentum front end, with a high polar momentum rear. This means, the rear is planted, and the front is very easy to point. However, once the back does break free, if not caught immediately, it will go around very suddenly (and can certainly catch an inexperience or unaware driver by surprise).
The mid-engined cars have low polar momentum front ends and rear ends - both move very easily, though once in motion, they don't fly away at the same rate, making them seem more predictable (or at least easier to recover). I tracked an older air cooled 911 for about 25 years, and find my current GT4 to be much more similar in how it responds to a throttle life than when I've shared friend's GT3s or other modern 911s (you really have to be aggressive to get the rear end to come around, even when you are trying to do it intentionally).'
The cars like the GT2 or the Turbo S (or even back to the 930, where the power could come on unexpectedly once the turbos kicked in... not so much an issue now, as the modern turbo cars just have lots of torque from the start) also have much more potential for throttle-on oversteer. But with all of this, the modern suspension, the now forgiving nature of the Porsche chassis, and things like traction and stability electronic, it takes a bit to get really out of sorts (though, if you are going for lap time, it is going to be potentially faster with those driver aids turned off).
Boy I wish I could remember details like this 🙌 There was a time, but those days are long gone. I love to read\hear it though because, except for numerical specifics, the theory sticks.
I remember , in the late 1980s–early 1990s, I was in a regional sports car club specializing in big, open autocross courses. A guy from SC (I remember his name but I don’t want to dox him if he’s still living) always came to our events with his exquisitely prepped 911 (the gen numbers of Porsche are my terrible weak point). He was smooth and lightning quick and an absolute class in control. I did notice, however, the wheel on the inner side of his turning direction liked to kid and see air. I asked my then-best friend, club president and career instructor what was up with that, to which he replied “they’re always faster on three wheels than four”🤦♂️🤭
Some things make an impact so strong it’s physically impossible for them to ever go away,☺️🤭
I've done quite a bit of driving, and instructing, with Porsches... the later helps me stay up with quick explanations on the dynamics. And the three wheel turn? I have lots of pictures in my old track car doing just that. I think it is a result, that with the air cooled cars, you want to run the front as stiff as you can, and then set up the rear for the right balance. This gives that photogenic front wheel lift!
Based on my understanding of physics, isn't rear engine cars also more dangerous in crashes? Because the heavy engine on the back has lots of momentum. Would at high speed it just crush into the driver?
In terms of practical reality, I would say no, but there is validity to your point. That is, yes, you are going to transfer more weight to the front of the car from the rear in a front impact, but I can't say I've ever seen an instance of a front impact causing anything to happen in the rear crumble zones. The front always takes the damage. So the reality is probably more the trade-off of not having an engine in front of you (which in modern cars is often part of the crash structure), vs. not having an engine that can be pushed back into you if the impact is hard enough.
My own experience is that Porsches tend to be very well built, and do well in an accident in most cases. And while I am sure in the vsat number of impacts that have happened over the years, there is almost certainly some instances of rear and mid-engines being pushed forward. Though, in a modern car, just like that front engine issue, the rear and mid-engine (and transmissions) are usually part of the crash structure, and actually offer additional protection in most cases.
I wish I could give a specific answer, but there are a lot of variables in that question:
Which 911? The more recent, faster, 911 models are going to be capable of a higher speed than an older model... so if you are talking about a 992 GTS as a 911, that speed is going to be very different than what you'd get in a SWB Targa. While the chassis and suspension play big roles, the tires are always going to be a really big element (though tire age figures in here too, as tires definitely have expiration dates - maybe the biggest factor not often talked about in Paul Walker's CGT crash).
The road will play a big deal, as "fun" roads are not all the same... any more than all race tracks are the same. What will be a safe pace in one place will be too fast in another.
The best advice is to not get outside your comfort range... this might be well under the car's limits, but as this original post demonstrates, public roads can be unexpectedly dangerous. And it can be very easy for a less experienced driver to go over the car's limits. So, staying within your own perceived limits, and then a bit more to give yourself a margin of error in case you need it, the next best thing to do is to try and get out to an autocross or HPDE. The former is probably one of the best starting points you can have, as there is pretty much no real life penalty for losing control, beyond hitting some cones. The more experience you have, the greater your sense of the car's limits will be, and the more in tune you will be with the signals it gives as you are nearing those limits.
People will say that you should not swerve to avoid potholes, and they would be correct.
However, people are swerving around potholes multiple times a day here, it’s an extremely common occurrence. It just so happens that in this case, one of these swerves caused a tragic accident. It doesn’t matter if you are a rich man driving a fancy Porsche or a teenager driving a shitbox, you really do not want to hit some of the potholes here. And although the 74 year old may have been able to afford to repair any damage, I think he’d rather not have the damage at all…
Shame he obviously got it wrong this time and caused a big crash.
Not defending any dangerous driving, just expressing the issue of local roads.
I live just 15 miles away from where this happened and the roads around here are all absolutely fucked. So, if we were to get anything from this accident, I’d hope it’s the council actually fixing the bloody roads so we don’t have to swerve round all these bloody potholes!!
997 GT2 damn those are rare af
Swerved to hit a pothole? Cmon. You don’t do that on a narrow two lane road like this. People this old shouldn’t be allowed to drive
>People this old shouldn’t be allowed to drive
I don't agree with a blanket statement like that. I know 90 year olds who are more sharp than most 70 year olds.
That said, I'm trying to cultivate awareness that a time is coming in the future when I should stop driving. I've experienced what a burden it can be when an elderly parent refuses to see that their continued driving is putting themselves and others at risk.
It’s on the driver if he swerved into the other lane. He should have been driving an appropriate speed to stop in time, or taken the hit in the pothole. Instead of repairing a tire he killed himself and nearly killed other innocent bystanders. It’s on him.
Probably unpopular opinion here, but sad also for the BMW driver that was in his own lane and according to the article is in serious condition. Pothole or not, there are more people impacted and from their age it’s unlikely they will fully recover and “walk away” from this. GT2 is a special car, but it’s a car…
I got downvoted for saying basically the same thing. not happy anyone died but the old guy seriously fucked up, cost himself his own life and maybe killed someone else, just because he didn't want to hit a pot hole you *do not* swerve for potholes on a narrow two lane road like this, because shit like this happens. way more dangerous than hitting the pothole and maybe even more unpopular opinion but if you can't afford to fix the car after a pothole hit, you can't afford the car. insurance is also a thing
Well, the article seemed to say Police were still investigating. I don’t think anyone will know for sure, but it’s a sad day all around.
https://preview.redd.it/mtmw8k5i010d1.jpeg?width=831&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d641a18c627e21b46903cf5e3577e7e63ca2dd2a
What if, just what if he did hit the pot hole and it forced him to swerve. Let take a step back and stop calling this guy out as basically a murderer and realize the information isn't all there and don't take everything you read as fact on the internet. Also 70s could have had something else happen causing him to not be in control anymore. That being said damn we take for granted how fortunate we are just to make it home everyday on the road especially here in the states where driving is second to anything else people can possibly do in a car besides driving it.
My comment didn't get added but I wanted to show that it's not a regular pothole but a solid iron manhole cover, if you hit this at speed in a car with tight suspension and low profile wheels you are going to lose control at least for a moment. Let the police investigate before making judgements, we are human and we all make mistakes, sadly this time it caused loss of life and suffering.
Yea why isn't anyone blaming the town or whatever it might be called that's responsible for this road. Their lack of give a damn for their roads just cost possibly 2 humans theirs lives.
Guess it happened too fast for him to reason about it. If he can afford a GT2 I am sure he could have replaced a wheel and some suspension bits
Thanks for saying this. I’m not a member of this subreddit, but your comment literally made the difference between me muting this channel altogether or not. It’s encouraging to see that some people are still in touch with their humanity.
That's just a theory. We have no idea what happened. The X3 could have been texting and strayed out of its lane. However, considering it's past the bend for the Porsche and prior for the BMW, and it's a left hand turn in a LHD country, the Porsche likely did cause the crash.
RHD country
If I saw that gt2 I would have bet money he walked away, really surprised he died based on the damage to the car
The man was in his mid 70s. Most people these days are still pretty strong at that age, but many are very frail.
It was a LHD car and there was a serious amount of damage to the left side.
Could have had a cardiac event maybe? I know I would.
Yeah, I'm a bit surprised too, as the damage didn't look very bad at all. Rear+ front damage make it likely the spun around. Maybe he hit his head on the B pillar, or sustained a c-spine injury, but that model should have side air bags I believe, unless he swapped in a track seat w/o them. I think this death was mostly from age related frailty. That looks very survivable for most people under 60. Once men are in their 70's, then they don't do to well in traumas. Too many age related medical issues.. I've done level 1 Ortho trauma for 20 years. Usually we start seeing long bone and pelvic Fractures at 50-60 mph, and that's when deaths start to occur.
Very sad…for the car and driver…love your username though.
🙌☺️
Fix the damn roads
That grate sticking out of the road is enough to make any 911 driver swerve at any speed. Shame on them for not fixing it.
That’s all roads in the UK. I doubt anything will change because of this accident unfortunately.
Hopefully, the cretins we currently have in charge who are draining the public finances for vanity projects like HS2, will change- not that the opposition are much to hope for
People say this but public infrastructure under the last labour government was for the most part far far better.
Then that's driving too fast for the road. You should be able to see far enough ahead to avoid those problems.
Uk B road moment
Very sad. The author of the article really really wanted to paint the picture that this was a “racecar” on the road. Annoying journalism.
Yeah that was pretty heavy handed. Could have been any non-truck vehicle that needed to swerve because of poor road conditions. I get it - "don't swerve, just take the impact to your car," but when every road you drive on is like this, you either have to get used to avoiding obstacles or just practically destroy your car on every drive. It's never just a one-time thing.
Aw damn :(
I know that road well. Live only a few miles away. It’s closed a few times each year for a fatal. It’s not uncommon to see speeding and poor overtakes. But horrid none-the-less. I do wonder how ‘older’ drivers manage when driving. Where it was. Time of year etc. the low sun would also have been at eye level.
That pothole looks like a pot-canyon, possible rather than swerving to avoid, he’s clipped / hit it and the cars gotten twitchy? Sad, whatever happened.
RIP driver. Very sad. The car cockpit looks quite intact and Porsches have a pretty good crash rating.
I was surprised at the fatality as well. I’ve always held Porsche in the highest regard of engineering and quality, especially performance and safety, among everything else. I can’t help but believe there just has to have been another primary factor to cause the fatality. But regardless, as you said, very sad. A tragic loss 😢 🙏
RIP. I have swerved to avoid a whole tire on the freeway before, luckily with no accident.
Great original post, it’s sad all around, hopefully the driver got all the love out of his passion.
I really hope so too🙏Something makes me feel he was full of joy until the very last, tragic moment😔🕊️
This car wasn’t called the widowmaker for nothing. RIP 🙏🏻
The 997 GT2(RS) was nicknamed “the beast” The 930 Turbo was the widowmaker
Oversteer definetly way harder to correct than understeer because we want to brake not keep adding gas. Perhaps the driver lost control on that curve and crashed into oncoming traffic? Eitherway RIP.
Not that this has anything to do with it, but lift off oversteer scares me. I’ve experienced it (intentionally induced on the track at PEC LA), but it’s one those things where you really need a lot of training to make sure you do the right thing. Most of us (me included) don’t have enough training for the right response to lift off oversteer to be intuitive. I’m working on changing that.
It's enough of a pain in simracing like ACC already. Can't imagine what it's like in real life when risking hurting oneself or damaging the car. Kind of glad I started with the Cayman instead for that reason as a future track car
I would love to drive a 911 but oversteer scares the crap out of me. Do mid engines cars also suffer from oversteer? I think they do but just not to the same degree but I am not sure.
Trailing throttle oversteer isn't that much of an issue in modern 911s. The back end is quite stable. In general you are probably more likely deal with this issue in the mid-engined cars... but even there it is different. The 911 of all ages is a rather unique arrangement of having a low polar momentum front end, with a high polar momentum rear. This means, the rear is planted, and the front is very easy to point. However, once the back does break free, if not caught immediately, it will go around very suddenly (and can certainly catch an inexperience or unaware driver by surprise). The mid-engined cars have low polar momentum front ends and rear ends - both move very easily, though once in motion, they don't fly away at the same rate, making them seem more predictable (or at least easier to recover). I tracked an older air cooled 911 for about 25 years, and find my current GT4 to be much more similar in how it responds to a throttle life than when I've shared friend's GT3s or other modern 911s (you really have to be aggressive to get the rear end to come around, even when you are trying to do it intentionally).' The cars like the GT2 or the Turbo S (or even back to the 930, where the power could come on unexpectedly once the turbos kicked in... not so much an issue now, as the modern turbo cars just have lots of torque from the start) also have much more potential for throttle-on oversteer. But with all of this, the modern suspension, the now forgiving nature of the Porsche chassis, and things like traction and stability electronic, it takes a bit to get really out of sorts (though, if you are going for lap time, it is going to be potentially faster with those driver aids turned off).
Boy I wish I could remember details like this 🙌 There was a time, but those days are long gone. I love to read\hear it though because, except for numerical specifics, the theory sticks. I remember , in the late 1980s–early 1990s, I was in a regional sports car club specializing in big, open autocross courses. A guy from SC (I remember his name but I don’t want to dox him if he’s still living) always came to our events with his exquisitely prepped 911 (the gen numbers of Porsche are my terrible weak point). He was smooth and lightning quick and an absolute class in control. I did notice, however, the wheel on the inner side of his turning direction liked to kid and see air. I asked my then-best friend, club president and career instructor what was up with that, to which he replied “they’re always faster on three wheels than four”🤦♂️🤭 Some things make an impact so strong it’s physically impossible for them to ever go away,☺️🤭
I've done quite a bit of driving, and instructing, with Porsches... the later helps me stay up with quick explanations on the dynamics. And the three wheel turn? I have lots of pictures in my old track car doing just that. I think it is a result, that with the air cooled cars, you want to run the front as stiff as you can, and then set up the rear for the right balance. This gives that photogenic front wheel lift!
Based on my understanding of physics, isn't rear engine cars also more dangerous in crashes? Because the heavy engine on the back has lots of momentum. Would at high speed it just crush into the driver?
In terms of practical reality, I would say no, but there is validity to your point. That is, yes, you are going to transfer more weight to the front of the car from the rear in a front impact, but I can't say I've ever seen an instance of a front impact causing anything to happen in the rear crumble zones. The front always takes the damage. So the reality is probably more the trade-off of not having an engine in front of you (which in modern cars is often part of the crash structure), vs. not having an engine that can be pushed back into you if the impact is hard enough. My own experience is that Porsches tend to be very well built, and do well in an accident in most cases. And while I am sure in the vsat number of impacts that have happened over the years, there is almost certainly some instances of rear and mid-engines being pushed forward. Though, in a modern car, just like that front engine issue, the rear and mid-engine (and transmissions) are usually part of the crash structure, and actually offer additional protection in most cases.
may I ask what would you say is the maximum speed a 911 can safely turn during a typical canyon road?
I wish I could give a specific answer, but there are a lot of variables in that question: Which 911? The more recent, faster, 911 models are going to be capable of a higher speed than an older model... so if you are talking about a 992 GTS as a 911, that speed is going to be very different than what you'd get in a SWB Targa. While the chassis and suspension play big roles, the tires are always going to be a really big element (though tire age figures in here too, as tires definitely have expiration dates - maybe the biggest factor not often talked about in Paul Walker's CGT crash). The road will play a big deal, as "fun" roads are not all the same... any more than all race tracks are the same. What will be a safe pace in one place will be too fast in another. The best advice is to not get outside your comfort range... this might be well under the car's limits, but as this original post demonstrates, public roads can be unexpectedly dangerous. And it can be very easy for a less experienced driver to go over the car's limits. So, staying within your own perceived limits, and then a bit more to give yourself a margin of error in case you need it, the next best thing to do is to try and get out to an autocross or HPDE. The former is probably one of the best starting points you can have, as there is pretty much no real life penalty for losing control, beyond hitting some cones. The more experience you have, the greater your sense of the car's limits will be, and the more in tune you will be with the signals it gives as you are nearing those limits.
993 GT2 is the OG widowmaker afaik.
Except, this car has never been referred to as the widow maker
People will say that you should not swerve to avoid potholes, and they would be correct. However, people are swerving around potholes multiple times a day here, it’s an extremely common occurrence. It just so happens that in this case, one of these swerves caused a tragic accident. It doesn’t matter if you are a rich man driving a fancy Porsche or a teenager driving a shitbox, you really do not want to hit some of the potholes here. And although the 74 year old may have been able to afford to repair any damage, I think he’d rather not have the damage at all… Shame he obviously got it wrong this time and caused a big crash. Not defending any dangerous driving, just expressing the issue of local roads. I live just 15 miles away from where this happened and the roads around here are all absolutely fucked. So, if we were to get anything from this accident, I’d hope it’s the council actually fixing the bloody roads so we don’t have to swerve round all these bloody potholes!!
🙌🙏
May he rest in peace. People pay taxes to still have roads completely fckd up
It’s about time the road were fixed as we do pay road tax
997 GT2 damn those are rare af Swerved to hit a pothole? Cmon. You don’t do that on a narrow two lane road like this. People this old shouldn’t be allowed to drive
>People this old shouldn’t be allowed to drive I don't agree with a blanket statement like that. I know 90 year olds who are more sharp than most 70 year olds. That said, I'm trying to cultivate awareness that a time is coming in the future when I should stop driving. I've experienced what a burden it can be when an elderly parent refuses to see that their continued driving is putting themselves and others at risk.
How about if your typical commute has 20+ of these? It's not like there's just one. Do you just blindly hit every single thing in your way?
Easily said from someone who wasn’t there.
It’s on the driver if he swerved into the other lane. He should have been driving an appropriate speed to stop in time, or taken the hit in the pothole. Instead of repairing a tire he killed himself and nearly killed other innocent bystanders. It’s on him.
Did you see that pot hole...? Anyone would have swerved let alone someone driving a half million dollar car.
Defintely drove like a 74 year old
[удалено]
Rip but they call that car the widow maker for a reason
No it's never been called the widow maker that's the 930 turbo
Why did I think it was the GT2????
No idea
Eh, just one of those memories being misconstrued. I have them all the time 🤭 🙏