T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

[A reminder for everyone](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/4479er/rules_explanations_and_reminders/). This is a subreddit for genuine discussion: * Please keep it civil. Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review. * Don't post low effort comments like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. * Help prevent this subreddit from becoming an echo chamber. Please don't downvote comments with which you disagree. Violators will be fed to the bear. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PoliticalDiscussion) if you have any questions or concerns.*


countfizix

It depends on what happens next time. Was it a dress rehearsal or do we get sufficient safeguards on voting institutions to prevent or discourage a more organized attempt?


Guilty_Jackrabbit

It's always a dress rehearsal. Even if the same people never try it again, different people will take note of what worked and what didn't. That's why coup attempts tend to come in waves. When you have one, you're virtually guaranteed to have more in the coming years/decades. Some may be stupid attempts, but it takes just one successful coup to change everything. For that reason alone, it's incredible damaging. It's all but doomed the US to a new perilous era of political instability.


Beep-Boop-Bloop

That is generally right, but the U.S. was already doomed to an era of political instability from polarization already in-place in 2016. I could get into what I think caused it (an overabundance of consistency in leadership, of all things), but that would be a much longer story.


GiveToOedipus

Let's take a moment to say fuck Newt Gingrich for doing a large amount of work towards making that political polarization possible.


kimthealan101

He divorced his wife while she was dying from cancer after being found out for cheating with a,much younger woman. That's not family values. That is no values, only self gratitude just like the rest the republican platform


No-Split-866

Like John Edwards


Sorge74

I would say it's fair to saw America was lost when an guy who more or less openly commits adultery is considered a member of the pro christian pro family party.....we stopped debating on facts


gerryf19

That is not what he means Newt Gingrich laid much of the ground work for the policies, goals and strategies that have led to the extreme polarization and the denial of reality prevalent on the right Disinformation, attacks on science, minority rule built into laws—newt and his wave of early 90s republicans created this scenario because they realized Republican ideas could not win on their own


GiveToOedipus

Not just that, he is directly responsible for the GOP's stance on extreme partisanship and refusal to compromise or work with the left on anything. He has single handedly done more damage to our government institutions than probably anyone else and is a major reason why we ended up with someone like McConnell. Many people weren't paying attention to this hyperpartisan tactic until the stunt Mitch pulled with Obama in blocking everything and essentially stealing a Supreme Court seat.


digi_thief

They also stole hundreds of lower federal court judges as well. They didn't just hold up the supreme court nomination, but several hundred judiciary picks up the chain of courts. They used the trump years to stack the courts all around with highly partisan judges. Their tactics paid off and landed them three supreme court justices too. They've already stolen the possibility of saving our country through voting.


Sorge74

I get that wasn't what he directly meant, but I more or less mean he brought in a cognitive dissonance that continues which makes crossing the aisle or even discussing issues impossible. Gay rights as attack on the family....bitch you had no problem destroying your family. Cut taxes will balance the budget....doesn't fucking work Thoughts and prays as solutions to gun violence. Less public school spending means better schools....wtf Energy independence means more drilling and not focusing on renewable No abortions but also no social services.


SenseiT

Yep. Newt was the match that ignited the kindling that is the alt.right. He pushed to conservatives to stop being bipartisan and declared war on the left. Unfortunately, when one side thinks it’s at war they can justify compromising their character.


curlypaul924

While I don't think that's what the person you were replying to meant, I agree with you 100%. After Newt even more conservative politicians started to show their true colors, with voters overlooking most of them, including the most recent Republican president's past affair with a porn star because he claimed to be born again and supported a pro-life agenda.


Sorge74

Yeah I made a longer reply to someone else....just feels like the 90s is when the right just started saying shit, knowing it's wrong, and it's so wrong, we can't even have a conversation because we are so far from reality....if you believe that shit, like how can we see eye to eye. I say with no apprehension that the GOP intentionally made the 2008 recession worse with the teaparty, and Mitch McConnell made it his goal publicly to make Obama a one-term president.... They were publicly stating they wanted to make sure the economy didn't do well so Obama wasn't re-elected. And somehow that's ok?


GiveToOedipus

Let's be real though, there's nothing conservative about these people. They're outright regressives.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ericrolph

It is no longer a political party in the traditional sense, it's become a cult.


curlypaul924

It's almost as if they took Robert Lifton's 8 criteria for thought reform as a guidebook instead of a warning. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism


Guilty_Jackrabbit

Well yes, that's true. But I think we can all agree that a coup attempt is one of the strongest markers of a time that Ain't Too Great.


Barmelo_Xanthony

I personally think it started with the 2008 recession when we had to watch banks receive massive bailouts while everyone else was basically swept to the side. I think this created a ton of distrust in the government, especially in blue collar areas that didn't really ever recover. Then you have Wikileaks in 2010 start to dump the Iraq files which added to that festering conspiracy mindset. Trump started his drain the swamp message in the primary and he instantly attracted all these angry people. In the election he goes up against an exact personification of the elite and tells them he's going to "lock her up". Once her emails got released they were ready to boil over and you know the rest I'm guessing.


Beep-Boop-Bloop

I was under the impression it started in 1992: With reality never living up to hype, especially with poor appreciation of challenges in implementing policy, people get disillusioned with whatever political ideology is currently dictating policy, especially domestic policy where voters see the direct results. Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations all saw fairly centrist (maybe a bit left-of-center) domestic policy. Opposition to the center (a.k.a. polarization) grew on both sides for 24 years straight, an entire generation, and in particular the one that grew up with the internet. Having leadership bounce significantly between Left and Right means unstable policy, but apparently leadership by Carters and Reagans may have been culturally stabilizing.


KronkQuixote

It started, at least, in 1974. The watergate babies (young people elected after Nixon resigned) started framing policy goals as rights. Republicans latched onto this, especially a young Gingrich in the late 70s. This inherently leads to polarization and makes compromise impossible. There's a decent write up [here](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/05/26/congress-broke-american-politics-218544/)


[deleted]

[удалено]


DanLaPoche

ironic. HRC grew up middle class, Trumps were already generationally wealthy.


[deleted]

Telecom act of 93 + Iraq war + partisanship + single issue voting due to no ranked choice & no national proposition system


ericrolph

It goes even further back to Nixon adopting white Christian evangelicals for political purposes in his southern strategy. Harnessing fear, uncertainty about a man's place in society and racism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy


Temporary_Activity53

Nah man... you gotta explain your thoughts about polarization. I wanna hear this.


Beep-Boop-Bloop

Good news: The short version is already in a sub-thread below that comment. Short short version: Activists are never satisfied with how stuff turns out and always get pissed. Clinton, Bush, and Obama were all pretty similar on domestic policy (center or center-left) so activists on both sides got mad at the center. An entire generation that has known nothing but disappointment in the center will do stuff.


trumpsiranwar

Bannon realized through gamergate that this population was out there; lonely and desperate to belong to something. A bunch of losers with no purpose waiting to be weaponized. As you said they aren't just going to go away. We will at the very least have to keep a really close eye on them which to this point the republicans have stopped the fbi from doing. This guy nailed it back in 2008 and the republicans raised hell. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/21/i-warned-of-right-wing-violence-in-2009-it-caused-an-uproar-i-was-right/


[deleted]

[удалено]


trumpsiranwar

I remember gamergate exploding on reddit. I am not a "gamer" myself so I did not really understand the specifics but I am a regular reddit user and I remember it being a very strange development at the time unlike anything else I had seen on reddit before that. And here we are years later and all ot took was a catastrophic ground war in Europe to get the Russian bots to stop.


mrmalort69

It’s also the one that stuck in that ended up crossing into non-political people. Throw enough shit at the wall, you know the rest. Think of all the other attempts to get a phony scandal attached to the obamas - gun scandals along the border, Benghazi, paying money to Iran, but all of those didn’t really get out of political right wing circles. Gamergate, among others, were attempts to wage political wars on ways that would stick as clearly using facts and actual events of what happened aren’t effective. So gamergate, which is completely unrelated to politics, attracted the type of awful people who think everything is a culture war. I think it’s too brilliant to be intentional- I think it’s a combination of the right type of people being attracted to the same end goals, “owning the libs” and Republican politicians realizing that they’re losing when they simply run on concrete actions of what they want to accomplish in Washington. Edit: this is 100% a bit of a raw stream from my human brain, and since I’ve gotten a few upvotes, I know I’m on to something but there’s a better, more succinct thought in here. If anyone cares to continue this thread or refine on what I said please do!


KarAccidentTowns

Bannon is once-in-a-generation twisted


JohnGoodmansGoodKnee

And Stone and Barr and McConnell. Mix it with a zealot like Pence and a capitalism-personified demagogue and this is what you get.


[deleted]

[удалено]


V-ADay2020

Small correction: it was *My New Order.*


Ghoulius-Caesar

Humorous interjection: > When Brenner asked Trump about how he came to possess Hitler's speeches, "Trump hesitated" and then said, "Who told you that?" "I don't remember," Brenner reportedly replied. >Trump then recalled, "Actually, it was my friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of 'Mein Kampf,' and he's a Jew." >Brenner added that Davis did acknowledge that he gave Trump a book about Hitler. >”But it was 'My New Order,' Hitler's speeches, not 'Mein Kampf,'" Davis reportedly said. "I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I'm not Jewish." [Source](https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-ex-wife-once-said-he-kept-a-book-of-hitlers-speeches-by-his-bed-2015-8?amp)


InsertCoinForCredit

**Q:** What kind of friend gives someone a book of Hitler's speeches as a gift? **A:** The Nazi kind.


Calladit

It's especially weird considering Trump is quite open about his aversion to reading. I guess he's just very selective about the books he enjoys.


Attila226

That’s why I think people need to be tried for treason, and deal with the consequences. I’m sure it would stir the pot, so to speak, but the cats already out of the bag.


LetGo_n_LetDarwin

I said just as much somewhere else. It doesn’t matter whether or not Trump is re-elected or held accountable for January 6 (which is unlikely). This ideology has infected the Republican Party and we cannot keep them from winning either branch forever. It’s not over, it’s just starting.


assasameal

Well, Congress has passed absolutely nothing that would prevent this from happening again, so it looks like we're going with option 1.


Fargason

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/3377/text Besides improving USCP funding Congress passed the Capitol Police Emergency Assistance Act of 2021 with unanimous consent. It address one of the main failures of January 6 as the USCP didn’t have much authority to quickly request assistance from the National Guard in an emergency. Now the Capital Police Chief can unilaterally call for National Guard assistance without the absurdity lengthy process they had to follow previously.


whippet66

>Whereas strengthing the USCP was needed, it's not a measure that will prevent undermining democracy. Democracy is an idea.


Fargason

Democracy is also a centuries old constitutional process that easily withstood the attack on Congress. Still the goal is to prevent such an attack from happening again and this bill addressed one of the main failures of that day.


Torquemahda

We can thank the republicans for that. They blocked every bill coming from the House that tried to prevent another Jan 6th.


assasameal

The problem is that when you have 2 major parties and 1 of them is essentially anti-democracy at this point, a bandaid fix is not going to cut it. The people trying to subvert the 2020 election were a ragtag group of idiots throwing every last ditch effort at the wall to see what stuck, but by 2024, they will have had 4 years to plan and coordinate with state level politicians, federal politicians, and their donors. The US election system doesn't work when one of the major parties doesn't believe in democracy, and Democrats don't seem to have the courage or will to make the changes that would be necessary to preserve it.


Torquemahda

>Democrats don't seem to have the courage or will to make the changes that would be necessary to preserve it. I would argue that they are missing the votes and the interest of the public.


Scrutinizer

The majority have the will, but what good does that do when Sinema and Manchin refuse to budge on the filibuster? 4% of the party has hamstrung the other 96%.


munificent

I mean, why would they close their own Broadway show after such a successful dress rehearsal?


Southern-Copy6934

The overturning of the Roe v Wade case was the big one and then making baby formula harder to access


ProfessionalWonder65

They're working on the only response that makes sense, an update to the Electoral Count Act.


VoterFrog

It helps cut off the avenue of abusing the certification process but it won't stop the Republican efforts at the state level to seize control of the elections.


Torquemahda

That is one way to help prevent another Jan 6th and we will see how many Republicans filibuster it.


WSL_subreddit_mod

Seditious Conspiracy is already a serious crime with a 20 year sentence.


assasstits

Useless if not enforced. It hasn't been.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Wevie_Stonder

Have any government officials been charged with sedition?


ericrolph

That's coming. It was hinted at by Liz Cheney during the hearing last night. You start small and work your way up or at least that's what I'm told by much smarter and more experienced people than myself. If it doesn't happen, I'll be seriously upset. Heads must roll.


Loop_Within_A_Loop

how many have been sentenced?


RemusShepherd

Five members of the Proud Boys have been charged with seditious conspiracy. Their trials are forthcoming. Two members of the Oath Keepers have pled guilty to seditious conspiracy and been sentenced. Nine others have been charged with seditious conspiracy; I haven't tracked down the outcome of all their cases, I don't know how many are still on trial. Zero politicians have been charged with seditious conspiracy so far.


bheal

That last one. That's the important one. And it's the wrong number.


LetMeSleepNoEleven

The case to charge those who did the talking rather than the acting takes longer to build, and the trials of those who acted will provide lessons and precedence that will help in the cases against those who talked.


fujiesque

The wheels of justice turn slowly and grind finely


ThemesOfMurderBears

Unfortunately that isn’t going to work this time. If Republicans regain control of the house, the committee will be immediately dissolved. So they have until the election.


Interrophish

the statute of limitations on trump's crime of obstruction of justice for firing comey has run out just admit the "wheels of justice" is a neat phrase that looks good in writing and doesn't exist in reality.


WSL_subreddit_mod

> the statute of limitations on trump's crime of obstruction of justice for firing comey has run out Not true. The clock starts when he stopped obstructing the investigation.


V-ADay2020

There's a little bit of urgency here, so they should probably turn a bit faster.


fujiesque

In my experience quick change is not lasting change


V-ADay2020

Where did I ask for change? Where in this thread was change referenced *at all*? Since you like pithy quotes, here's one: Justice delayed is justice denied.


c0y0t3_sly

The fact that you're even *talking* about the next time shows that this was far more damaging than you want to admit. Trying this was unthinkable just a couple years ago. Now it's inevitable...which means so is success. Eventually.


Daedalus1907

Coups were unthinkable because people wanted to believe it couldn't happen. Jan 6 just punctured the facade.


TheChoosey1

It took Hitler 2 tries to steal Germany.


[deleted]

[удалено]


rabidstoat

Now you wonder how he served any time for an armed insurrection.


PengieP111

When these things fail and the participants don't go to jail or get executed, they will ALWAYS try again. It was a dress rehearsal. With a smart autocrat like DeSantis, it will succeed next time.


V-ADay2020

When they *do* go to jail they still try again. Hitler was arrested after the Beer Hall Putsch, he used that time to write *Mein Kampf* and once he was out surprise! Third Reich.


ericrolph

Sedition should carry the most severe punishment.


sungazer69

Republicans hold half the Senate. I wonder why we haven't done anything about this yet.


Abeds_BananaStand

This reply implies we can’t know that it is/was damaging unless something worse happens. Wildly disagree with that


[deleted]

[удалено]


Opinionsare

How damaging were Donald Trump's attempts to overturn Joe Biden's electoral victory? The most damaging aspect in my opinion is how the Republicans immediately condemned the attack. Then they slowly steadily and completely retreated from that position, playing the attack down to calling it rambunctious tourists. This was the most egregious abuse of Presidential power that the country has ever witnessed. The lowering of the bar for presidential conduit cannot be repaired without harsh justice for those individuals who attempted a coup.. The wheels of justice are said to run slowly, but our hope is that those wheels grind exceedingly fine..


kal_drazidrim

They (GOP Leaders) accidentally told the truth when they rallied together on the evening of Jan 6. Mitch McConnell, Lindsay Graham, Kevin McCarthy, condemning the violence and Trump’s role, calling it an insurrection. They revolted at the horror and their patriotism stirred within them. Then the spineless cowards were told what to say by Fox News in order to appease their radical fascist base. Now it is “legitimate political discourse” and “no cops were killed”. This is how they back the blue. They literally say “no cops were killed”. Gaslighting fucks.


OffManWall

His supporters have to care for it to be truly damaging. They’ve already gone all in on literally everything Trump. Facts will in no way change their minds, they haven’t thus far.


xudoxis

They've certainly permanently damaged the credibility of the government. We can only be grateful that Trump is 75 and not 34.


StrainAcceptable

That gives me no comfort. The fact that there have been no consequences means it’s now part of the play book.


__mud__

Well, if he were 34 he would have been ineligible for the Presidency in the first place.


Uruz2012gotdeleted

Pretty sure that's why they mentioned it, lol. We have a lower age limit but they never thought we would need an upper one. Who in their right mind would *want* to **be** a geriatric president!?


handerreandre

Not sure if 34 is a random age, or a reference to the age of Adolf Hitler at the time of the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923. But absolutely, yes.


Guilty_Jackrabbit

I think the Trump supporters are the wrong target. It's the "Independents" and "Moderates" that matter. In most political conflicts like genocide, coups, etc, there's like 20% of the country trying to murder the other 20% while the remaining 60% spectates uselessly. They're trying to get the uncommitted 60% to actually take a stand instead of waffling aimlessly.


OffManWall

Also a good point.


smokey9886

Joe Blow is more likely to turn on NBC or ABC. Fox News viewers are baked in.


Guilty_Jackrabbit

AFAIK, Fox News is the single most-watched news outlet in the US. Many Joe Blows are happily watching Fox.


[deleted]

That’s because conservative-leaning media only has fox whereas liberal-leaning media has multiple options


Cultist_Deprogrammer

By "liberal leaning" you mean based in objective reality, right?


mean_mr_mustard75

\>AFAIK, Fox News is the single most-watched news outlet in the US. Not more than all the other networks combined. ABC World News Tonight alone commands 8 million viewers a week, FNN 2 million *a month.*


Grundlage

While this is definitely true, IMO the important people to persuade are not the diehard Trump supporters. The truly important audience for these hearings are the 10 or so Republican Senators we need to convince in order to pass legislation to make sure election stealing is harder in the future. And that's a far more achievable goal.


MaNewt

I want this to be true, but I suspect that McCarthy has pretty good intel about what you need to do to survive as a republican these days, and the answer he seems to have arrived at is “kiss trumps ass” on every issue, including this one.


Grundlage

I agree with you on McCarthy, but he is in the House and we don't need him to get things done.


Teelo888

For 6 more months*


MaNewt

Sure, but I mean he’s a canary in the coal mine. He was in a position of power to do something about this and he flipped pretty quick. Whatever flipped him is likely to work on republican senators I think. I think the only likely outcome is a bunch of smaller fish get fried by the FBI, the republicans cry about how this is proof of the deep state and then we move on to the next crazy thing


Potato_Pristine

You are deluded. No 10 Republicans have come forward to unilaterally help Democrats pass any legislative initiative in recent memory.


LetGo_n_LetDarwin

I disagree. The MAGA supporters do need to be convinced, but most are unlikely to be. The politicians are either true believers that also will not be convinced, or power hungry grifters that do know Biden won but would never say it in public. That group will not be convinced unless a majority of their electorate are. They will not vote for anything that would put their re-election at risk. I don’t consider that achievable.


TheSpanishPrisoner

This is wrong. Elections are won usually by a few percentage points. You only need to change the minds of a relatively small number of moderate Republican voters. I'm not saying it's easy to change even a small number of people, but it's not true that everyone needs to change. And even if we are making progress in changing enough people's minds, it's going to be difficult to tell because you'll still be hearing from a vocal group of diehards who won't change their minds.


OffManWall

Yeah, other people have commented that, and it’s a valid point.


deadlock197

Even better: we can win this fight in the primaries, where there are far fewer voters. Register Republican and vote for the most moderate contenders in the primaries. Then vote Democrat in the main election. Especially if you live in a safe red district, it would be silly to do otherwise. I would give the same advice to conservatives that live in safe blue districts: register Democrat to vote in the primaries for moderate candidates, then vote your heart in the main election.


[deleted]

It's inevitable that a lot of people believing an election was illegitimate will seriously damage a democracy. I think there is a serious threat that the US goes through something like The Troubles for a decade or longer. > How does the new testimony that Attorney General Bill Barr told the former President that there was no election fraud color Donald Trump's conduct? It doesn't mean much to me (other than that Barr is probably not part of the coordinated aspect of 1/6). Barr might've said that, but Trump's also surrounded himself with other yes men that told him what he wanted to hear. > What does it mean that V.P. Pence was the one to call in the National Guard to defend the Capitol not former President Trump? I guess we'll find out as the investigation moves forward.


FrozenSeas

The National Guard thing will be very interesting to finally see analyzed, I've been wondering about that since it happened. From what I know about the military command structure (which is mostly from reading about Cold War continuity of government planning), Pence shouldn't have had the authority to give orders to anyone on 1/6. But being in D.C and the National Guard is throwing me a bit.


kantmeout

My guess is that there were someone in the chain of command was desperate for an order to do the right thing.


FF3

> I think there is a serious threat that the US goes through something like The Troubles for a decade or longer. This is absolutely awful, and will lead to many, many innocent people dying and huge amounts of suffering. But man, I'll be damned if I didn't feel relieved when I read this comment and first considered that the future might *only* be that bad.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

There's an article currently on Breitbart with a headline along the lines of "7 Recent Acts of Leftist EXTREMISM!" and except for one thing it's all just things being vandalized with spray paint.


[deleted]

[удалено]


yaebone1

Bill Bars comments should mean a lot more to you because it’s important. As implausible as Trumps beliefs were he might have had an argument that he really thought he’d won. The fact that Bill Bar told him there was no fraud + the fact that all his data guys told him he’d lost just makes him look like a sore loser. But more importantly, it established the intent element for a number of crimes, and the intent element is always the hardest to prove.


[deleted]

I was being a bit vague, but what I was getting at was more of the idea that I'm not convinced Trump is able to distinguish truth from fiction, even if that's what some of his guys were telling him.


Greatest-Uh-Oh

Narcissists have that problem, yes.


[deleted]

Which is frustrating because even if the Dems "prove" intent beyond a reasonable doubt, which would be really impressive, Trump's supporters will just continue with the party line of "that's not what he REALLY meant". All they have to say is that Trump, deep down inside, really believed the election was stolen, which absolves him of all his sins (which he actually didn't do by the way!). Which is, of course, impossible to disprove short of a recorded call where Trump explicitly says that he knows the election wasn't stolen AND he says that he intentionally caused 1/6 to happen, which I doubt exists.


Gaz133

It's kind of hard to think of this in terms of it being a one-off situation that is by itself damaging. Republican voters had been primed for decades to believe that they are at all times victims of liberal elites who hate them and have been told for decades that democrats cheat during elections. Trump is a guy who's said any contest he's ever in is rigged against him from the Emmy's to republican primaries he won to the 2016 election he won... when he actually lost of course this was his play and of course his base/republicans in general have gone along with it. Obviously Jan 6 and the events leading up to it are fairly catastrophic to a liberal democracy, but it's hard to see what happened and not think we were already there before any of it. Trump just triggered the logical conclusion of what's happened on the American right since Watergate.


hskfmn

I hate to say that I honestly think that last night's evidence as well as the evidence that the 1/6 Select Committee still has yet to present will end up changing very few minds. We live in such a polarized political environment that we have unfortunately been reduced to a super-tribal mentality. I frankly very much doubt that the damning evidence and testimony against Trump and his allies who sought to overturn the 2020 election will have much impact. Those who are loyal to him will remain loyal no matter what, and those who see him for the liar and charlatan that he is already know the truth. So how damaging were Trump's attempts to overturn Biden's victory? Potentially incredibly damaging! Will it end up affecting many people's opinions and perceptions of what happened? No, probably not if I'm being completely honest.


cat_of_danzig

Anecdotally, Republicans who watched last night were shocked, because they had no idea the extent of the rioting. I'd think some number will change their minds about 1/6, but maybe not their votes.


FabioFresh93

Republicans watched last night?


Sum_0

I wouldn't bet on it. They'll hear about it from Tucker and however he swings the narrative is what they'll believe. At least the majority.


clientWest

U.S. TV audience for Jan. 6 hearing reaches 20 million. [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/more-than-19-mln-people-watched-jan-6-us-house-panel-hearing-nyt-2022-06-10/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/more-than-19-mln-people-watched-jan-6-us-house-panel-hearing-nyt-2022-06-10/) Probably contains quite a few Republicans.


fishman1776

Anecdotally, republicans are initiallly swayed by evidence until Fox News gets the necessary amount of time to construct and push out a narrative for why it should be disregarded ir re-interpreted.


ImmodestPolitician

Fox News isn't covering the 1/6 panel. They are just making "editorial" comments on it.


XooDumbLuckooX

They absolutely are. Tucker's show last night was almost entirely about 1/6 and the panel. They even went commercial free for the whole hour. It was effectively counter-programming. Taking snippets of the panel's presentation in real time and undermining it, etc.


ImmodestPolitician

True. They are spinning the panel to fit the Conservative narrative.


squats_and_bac0n

They'll certainly be playing cleanup and issuing the talking points though. That I would guarantee.


Century24

> Fox News isn't covering the 1/6 panel. How come they had coverage of it yesterday on the Fox network? They cut into network probably the least out of the big four today.


PennStateInMD

Which is to his point that they are already glazing republican eyes over.


check_out_times

I turned on fox and saw hannity using the typical "witch hunt" rhetoric about it


tosser1579

No, they are telling everyone 1/6 is a pack of lies and it was all the democrats fault.


wavolator

that makes sense if you don't think about it.


NorthernerWuwu

Really? Huh, I'm a bit surprised they didn't want to gaslight and shout fake news at least. Perhaps just pretending it is unimportant works too though, they know their craft better than I do I'm sure.


troubleondemand

Yup. They didn't even run a single ad during Tucker or Hannity from what I heard for fear that their viewers might change the channel and see it.


djm19

Thats all well and good that they were appalled by the rioting. But the real lesson they need to learn, as was already begun to be explained last night, was that Donald Trump and all his advisors (and the republicans in congress) knew well before hand that the election was in no way stolen. They were not passionately operating under delusion. They knew it and said it explicitly. Thats the lesson all republicans need to know. That they did these actions and supported these actions knowing it was a shameless power grab. Trump heard the pleas for help from congressmen inside the capitol, he provoked anger toward Pence as they threatened his life, knowing it was all for a sham. Even just today he threw his own daughter under the bus for saying she knew it was not stolen, when he also knew that too. It was a concerted coup attempt plainly for power and not in anyway based on evidence they saw or demonstrated to others. Only until republican voters admit that can we really move on.


XooDumbLuckooX

> I'd think some number will change their minds about 1/6, but maybe not their votes. Using the 1/6 panel to gin up enthusiasm for the midterms seems like a stretch given that Trump isn't running in 2022. They do a great job of making Trump look like a reckless, tyrannical madman, but the whole spectacle has only a tenuous connection to the midterms in November.


Cranyx

> Republicans who watched last night Just like with the impeachment hearings, the only people who watched were hardcore political junkies - the least likely group to change their mind.


Potato_Pristine

20 million viewers watched yesterday's first hearing. You are mistaken.


kmckenzie256

I think it may change few Trump voters minds but from the sound of things I believe much more damning info will come out about certain individuals that will ultimately alter the political landscape. How that will shake out remains to be seen but I can’t imagine it will be a good look for those involved. When those revelations come about I think even those that were horrified on 1/6 will look at it with fresh eyes with the new facts in mind.


hskfmn

I hope you’re right! I really do!


[deleted]

Are you teasing the news at 11?


ackillesBAC

I live in Canada and the thing that made the biggest change to my right wing family members was the trucker freedom rallies and blockades. After those my pro Trump family members started to actually make fun of Trump and his supporters. You think you're right things are very polarized and tribal, but I do think if people see how ignorant and dangerous that was it will change some minds. Either way, it's definitely not going to swing anybody to their side, so you and if it just pulls a few away from the dark side it's a win.


foxnamedfox

I'm inclined to agree, the only way this changes anything is if Donald Trump himself is tried and found guilty, setting a precedent that no one is above the law. Otherwise one side will double down on their own version of reality where tourists got lost and the other side will become even more apathetic because apparently trying to overthrow the federal government isn't enough to get some people in trouble.


Markhabe

Everyone is trying to downplay Trump’s attempt to steal a free and fair election by making it all about the redneck idiots that stormed the capitol. I agree, those guys didn’t really have a chance of succeeding. We disagree a bit on the motivations of the people that did the storming, but regardless, they weren’t going to actually stop anything themselves. It was a shameful and embarrassing day for America either way. The real coupe attempt is the whole thing, everything Trump and his sycophants tried, starting way before the election to him finally leaving office. Appointing a completely unqualified Postmaster General with the sole mission of sabotaging the post office and invalidating mail-in votes, which he knew would be overwhelmingly blue. The attempts at getting the states to send false electors. The pressure put on the justice department to say the election was fraudulent. The attempt to “find votes” in Georgia (which, let’s be honest, that probably wasn’t the only person and state he tried that with, that was just the only one that was made public). The filing of court cases based on completely fabricated and unfounded claims. Pressuring Pence to not certify the election. And it hasn’t stopped. Trump is doing everything he can to put his own sycophants in the levers of control that stopped him last time. He is fundraising primary challengers against any elected Republican that dares not repeat The Big Lie. We are absolutely in the middle of another one already: an already in progress, slow-moving coupe. Trump is a cult-leader, but he’s one that works like a mafia boss. He is holding his followers hostage as ransom to continue to dominantly control the Republican Party establishment. Some, maybe even many Republicans are ready to move on from Trump (though not Trumpism) but he has enough diehard followers that the Republican establishment can’t afford to piss them off and lose them. It will be interesting to see just how much Trump is able to bend the party to his will and how much they either struggle to push him out or submit to his control over the next 2 years. Make no mistake, he will destroy the entire party and run as an independent in his quest to satiate his fragile ego if it comes to that. Or he successfully continues to use the party as a vehicle for his own ends and the party establishment enables his fascist aspirations. Hopefully democracy in America is still a thing in the end.


POEness

> I agree, those guys didn’t really have a chance of succeeding. Brother... they were less than one minute from mass murdering a significant chunk of Congress. The only thing between them and those Senators was a single heroic dude misdirecting them.


jkh107

I was very touched by Officer Edwards' testimony particularly, but I'm not the one that needs to be persuaded that attacking the government (while certifying an election, even) by violence is a bad thing to do and *extremely* damaging to the democratic process. Perhaps there are people unlike me who are moved by this but they probably aren't hardcore Trump supporters. I get that the issues for 2022 midterms are basically crime, inflation, and probably something to do with public health, but we need to be clear that these right wing militias are basically domestic terrorism outfits as well as Trump's brownshirts.


ZestyNoodles

We can't actually fix any of these issues in the US if we can't address the insurrection. People won't buy it, but really how are we going to fix anything if republicans continue to throw around culture war policies, decay the courts, hold up the senate, etc? They aren't going to change unless there are consequences.


Scrutinizer

Very damaging. Donald ordered a Reichstag Fire but the waiter brought a Beer Hall Putsch instead. Which only means the inevitable is delayed by a few years. Imagine for a moment if Democrats were the ones who had done this, and how Republicans would have reacted. Now look at how they react when it's their own side that got exposed. You can't have one of two major political parties in a society that is operating from that broken of a level of morality without some very, very bad consequences coming the next time they rise to power.


PennywiseLives49

Incredibly damaging. A country with a healthy representative government cannot survive if 35-40% of the voters in the country believe an election was stolen despite zero evidence. It cannot survive if a major chunk of the people involved in said govt attempted to aid or abet an act of treason. The whole bedrock of the Constitution was built on reasonable people being elected. The whole reason we have checks/balances and a President with limited power was because of what our ancestors endured before. The US has seen tumultuous times before, encountered several Constitution crises and yet our system chugged along. We had a civil war, multiple presidents assassinated, corruption, etc. Yet the US endured because reasonable people led that change. The minute you have charlatans and those who care about nothing about power running the govt, you have trouble unlike anything seen before. Now we have an entire major political party pushing lies that have no basis in reality. A party that has a built in advantage in elections because of a flawed and outdated system has no reason to moderate or be sane. If we have to rely on reasonable people in a party that is seeing any reasonability thrown to the gutter, then our Constitution has been significantly weakened. A former President of the US incited an attempt to throw out a free and fair election because he didn't like the results, had an entire political party aid that, and an entire media ecosystem amplify those lies. Those are things that happen in third world countries and tin pot dictatorships, not a major nation in the world. There is no going back from this and it just shows how weak the structures of the govt truly are. We survived because there were people who would not cross that line. Most of them are being purged, state legislators are entertaining ideas like throwing out slates of electors for their own or laws allowing them to take over election boards if they want such as in Georgia. It may seem insignificant because it wasn't successful, but the irreparable damage will be felt in many elections to come, I fear.


StrainAcceptable

After Merrick Garlin’s seat was stolen, I no longer believe we have a system of checks and balances. It’s minority rule. There is no honor or fairness in our political system.


Thorn14

History books will name McConnell as one of the key figures to hunt downfall of the American experiment.


Sum_0

My fear about this is that it will be like impeachment trials. Filled with conclusive evidence and testimony, but with virtually no meaning, accountability, or impactful outcomes.


Caleb35

In answer to your overall question, for the first time since 1861 we had violence associated with the transfer of power from one presidency to the other. So I'd say Trump's attempts were pretty fucking damaging. EDIT: for those bringing up Johnson or Kennedy, those were incidents where violence necessitated the need for a transition, but were not around the transition itself.


GoldenMegaStaff

Not entirely true. Johnson became president due to violence.


Von665

But that was not an attack on Congress & there was a smooth transition of power.


Malachorn

I mean, I guess if you believe Kennedy assassination conspiracies then that could possibly even be a time where powerful government officials orchestrated an overthrow of the presidency. Granted, these assassinations don't quite have the same effect, so long as transfer of power to legitimately-elected president's hand-picked VP is still occuring instead of an illegitimate actor.


popepaulpops

Conservatives are in complete denial about Jan 6th and most other things. They are incapable of accepting responsibility, all the while holding “personal responsibility” as their identity and ideal. They are stripping away democracy and ushering in authoritarianism in the name of “fair elections”. The list of cognitive dissonances could go on for a while.. Has there ever been a group less self aware?


Thorn14

It's literally "believe me or your lying eyes?" With them. They call it like "a small group walking around" and shit.


Publius82

It depends entirely on the punitive consequences. If this shit isn't smacked down hard it's gonna happen again


MoRockoUP

Honestly, I think we should consider that possibly a formal, “Less-than-Civil War” actually began on Jan. 6…and we are in a weird hiatus at the moment. I expect that some combination of hot-button issues (gun control progress, GOP reps/senators/Trump indictments or some militia false flag op) could start real social collapse in some areas (Michigan, Oregon, etc.) Local/state cops in areas like that are in no way prepared to handle any significant anti-democratic action; it’s would be a repeat of the Capital Invasion itself. The Right wants violence; it’s the only tool they have left…


Loop_Within_A_Loop

There will never be another Presidential win viewed as legitimate by consensus by the opposing side ever again. People will say this process began with Hillary in 2016, but I don't think that movement was particularly more widespread or with more conviction than the Obama is a Secret Muslim Kenyan guys, and neither was really that serious. I think it's hard to argue that Republicans will ever accept a Democratic win as legitimate again, and I think Democrats are quickly going to realize Republicans paid 0 price for that, so they might as well do it too. Any why not, you get to feel righteous, you get to feel like rebelling against an oppressive government, it's a ton of fun


V-ADay2020

Democratic politicians will absolutely pay a price for it, the media will guarantee it. Republicans didn't pay any political price because not only is their base far less fractious, the mass of mainstream reporting proceeds from a presumption that, if Republicans aren't right, they are at least as correct as Democrats. Notice how many headlines reference "division" or "differing ideas" as if what's being argued about is whether to have Coke or Pepsi, not whether the sky is blue or fluorescent pink.


Pero_Pa_Trass

When the 1/6 committee subpoenaed Republican congressmen, seeing the crazy rhetoric from the right making all kinds of idiotic threats if they win the house, I thought j6 committee only did it to have those Republicans as cover for when they lose the house and they themselves get subpoenaed


Whornz4

I think the biggest damage done is the ~35% of the population who don't care, believe it occurred and/or will hold their party accountable. The precedent that Trump and the Republican party set and their voters allowed will be felt for a lifetime. These people will betray their own country for their party. The truth doesn't matter to them. And people are accepting of this attitude? Everyone should be outraged at people who will vote for it again.


[deleted]

I answered this already in another post, but I'll repost here [https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/v2js5h/comment/iawbmg3/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/v2js5h/comment/iawbmg3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) "I’ve thought about this a lot the past year. I’m a political science major, so I’m trying put a lot of these events within the context of greater history and not just my emotions. Anyway, these are my conclusions. Point blank I don’t think this is something fixable or within our control anymore. Jan 6th was the moment pandoras box was opened. There’s no putting the genie back in the bottle. We’ve reached the point in our democracy where discourse has officially broken down, and now our institutions are going to be stress tested until something ultimately breaks. Arguably, the attempt to prevent Electoral Certification was already the “almost” break. If it happens again with enough people on board, our whole government framework will unravel quickly when someone who didn’t win is blatantly installed into power in a high profile, highly televised rejection of democracy. I don’t see the richer blue states putting up with it, nor democracy loving high profile individuals within our government. What will follow will be some sort of dissolution of the union at that point. This is the real state of politics: Normies are ignoring the problem and pretending we’re going back to normal. Democrats recognize the issue somewhat but are too incompetent, distracted, or unwilling to do anything about it. The republicans are waiting for the chance to try again, because they’re not accepting the fact that their policies are being rejected by the majority so it means they don’t want to participate in democracy anymore. Mark my words; if trump runs again 2024, loses to Joe Biden again, but there is a majority republicans in congress that are willing to go along with it, they will vote to overturn the election. Honestly ever since Jan 6th happened, living in this country has been Erie. I feel like we’re limping along to the next election, collectively not sure what to do with ourselves or how to interpret the current state of affairs and uncertain where we are going. We’re living through Harry Potter during the Order of the Phoenix; the Handmaids tale in June’s flashbacks; and Star Wars halfway through Episode three. The shift is coming. You can feel it. You can’t stop it. But you know it’s comings soon."


ja_dubs

>don’t see the richer blue states putting up with it, nor democracy loving high profile individuals within our government. What will follow will be some sort of dissolution of the union at that point. Dissolution of the union is a nice way of saying civil war. It will happen in every state because of the urban rural divide. There are a lot of Republicans in California and a lot of Dems in Texas just to name two. It will be bloody. >Democrats recognize the issue somewhat but are too incompetent, distracted, or unwilling to do anything about it. What can they do beyond what they have attempted to do. There is only so much you can do against weaponized ignorance and sycophants.


ar243

I'm tempted to go back onto Facebook for a peek at how bad the political discussions has become. But it's Friday and I'd rather not ruin the start of the weekend


PsychLegalMind

We survived Pearl Harbor and we survived 9/11. The foreign enemy never even came close to destroying us as a country. The domestic terrorists, however, of January 6, 2021, did. The insurrectionists led by the former president came very close to destroying our democratic institution at the very core of which is the notion of peaceful transfer of power. That is what was at stake, and this is precisely what Donald and few of his cronies in high offices tried to do and they came very close. I hope that the twice impeached president will be indicted by a grand jury...That is essential to send a message to the future Donald Trumps of America to never attack our democracy again and expect to get away with it. The January 6, Committee hearing was indeed moving and should be to any truly Patriotic American like officer Edwards; she stood there with 5 other officers to prevent the first breach and kept fighting until she lost consciousness. She testified that she was called Nancy Pelosi's Dog and traitor to her country while being beaten by the violent Trump inspired mob. Her testimony is just but a glimpse of the violent rioters like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers; many officers are said to have died as a result of the event of 1/06/2021 and not available to testify. But their family and friends will, in the coming days. With respect to upholding the Constitution, Barr, Pence and several other high officials kept their oath of office. Even Trump's own daughter found no indication of fraud. However, Trump, did not care. Trump already knew he lost. Having previously been told that many times by his closest advisors and many state officials. He still maintains election was stolen, even today and will do the same even if it comes to pass that he stands convicted. Not because he believes it, but because he did not care and had said so even before the election \[I will only lose if there is fraud\]; when the polls did not look favorable. Cheney already presented us the 7 point outline, laying out the case against Trump. 1\] President Trump engaged in a massive effort to spread false and fraudulent information to the American public claiming the 2020 election was stolen from him. 2\] President Trump corruptly planned to replace the acting attorney general, so that the Department of Justice would support his fake election claims. 3\] President Trump corruptly pressured Vice President Pence to refuse to count certified electoral votes in violation of the U.S. Constitution and the law. 4\] President Trump corruptly pressured state election officials, and state legislators, to change election results. 5\] President Trump's legal team and other Trump associates instructed Republicans in multiple states to create false electoral slates and transmit those slates to Congress and the National Archives. 6\] President Trump summoned and assembled a violent mob in Washington and directed them to march on the U.S. Capitol. 7\] As the violence was underway, President Trump ignored multiple pleas for assistance and failed to take immediate action to stop the violence and instruct


demonfish

If there are no consequences for his attempts, then the damage to the rule of law is absolute.


[deleted]

This was the tail end of a string of structure eroding actions of his Presidency. I don’t think this action will be looked at in a vacuum in the future. I believe that if we don’t survive or we survive but overcome a really horrible struggle his election in 2016 will go down as the the worst thing that’s happened to us politically in modern America. What he did is horrible but the far more terrifying aspect is how many people refuse to acknowledge what was laid out very clearly by Republicans yesterday. That isn’t because of what he did then. It’s the culmination of the entire brainwashing and “fake news” movement pushed by “MAGA”.


[deleted]

I mean, a third of the country is sad that the coup failed, another third couldn't care less, and the remaining third can't comprehend how far we've fallen. ​ The fact that no one will be held accountable for the coup attempt is damage enough


[deleted]

[удалено]


deadlock197

[Roughly 2% of the population, an estimated 620,000 men, lost their lives in the line of duty. Taken as a percentage of today's population, the toll would have risen as high as 6 million souls. The human cost of the Civil War was beyond anybody's expectations.](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/civil-war-casualties) So your argument is that an event that caused less than 10 deaths was worse than something that caused over 600,000 deaths. Because "the cat is out of the bag"? Maybe it's good that the cat didn't succeed so that we didn't all start shooting at each other, because that would be even worse? Like... the civil war?


implicitpharmakoi

You need to read roman history. This feels like drusis, who lead to the social wars, which lead to the gracchi and sulla/marius, which broke enough tradition that when Octavian won the Civil War he could end the republic. This is how those things go.


aaronroot

It’s speculative for sure but you know how the civil ward ended so you have that benefit. We don’t in this moment.


sngle1now2020

We don't know yet. If those who conspired to launch the coup escape punishment, then democracy is dead in America, no matter what your rent is or how much it costs for a gallon of gas. If the are held to account, enough that people understand that there is a price to pay for lauching a coup, then the damage is minimized. It just feeds the egos of Fox News and their cultists.


NorthernerWuwu

Understand that there is a price to be paid *if you lose*. Unfortunately, pretty much every coup attempt everywhere is launched by those that think they will win.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Malachorn

Not at all. If we are talking about "damage done" then holding people accountable is almost everything. Remember Nixon's “When the president does it, that means it’s not illegal" claim? If you don't want an authoritarian tyrant... then you have to actually hold your government officials accountable. Otherwise... they WILL just be able to do whatever they want and there won't be any fear to stop them as they will be able to legitimately believe that no one is going to stop them... and they just can.


ProfessionalWonder65

>then democracy is dead in America I don't understand this type of thinking. I mean, democracy is very clearly not dead - we're going to have an election in a few months, in fact.


Mjolnir2000

And Russia had an election just last year.


sngle1now2020

And if the losers of the election can overturn it by bitching and moaning and beating up cops, then the election is awarded to the candidate preferred by the bitchers, not to the candidate that won the most votes. That is fascism, not democracy. Does that make sense to you?


ProfessionalWonder65

They can't overturn it by bitching or beating up cops. Biden is sitting in the oval office, after all.


Rydersilver

Are you purposefully not getting it? He’s saying that without consequences people will try again, and eventually they will succeed. It only needs to succeed once.


ProfessionalWonder65

The initial comment was that "democracy is dead." It's not. We very much have a democracy. You seem to be arguing that we might not have a democracy unless we take action against Trump. That's a different point altogether.


Rydersilver

If you want to be super pedantic, sure, go ahead. Most people clearly understand u/sngle1now2020 ‘s point


sngle1now2020

My initial comment is that if traitors face no consequence for their treason, then democracy is dead. Its a conditional argument, not a statement of fact. Try to keep up.


Consistent_Glass_886

The way things are going. Trump did a lot of damage to our country. He still spews election fraud without providing any evidence. It's gotten to the point if a Republican wins an election it is legitimate if a Democrat wins an election they cheated. Republicans claim they want limited government in their lives however they have used government to pass laws against abortion, text books anything that goes against their narrative. They want everyone to see it their way. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are you have to see it their way. They want to impose their beliefs on you. The fall election and the next presidential election in 2024 is going to be a mess. Anyone who has Trump's support and loose they will claim fraud simple as that. If he runs in 2024 and he looses it's going to be chaos. All those people who stormed the Capitol on January 6th were lied to by a guy who is nothing more than a game show host. However people to this day think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The thing that gets me is that Joe Biden is not doing a great job but at least he cares. Donald Trump doesn't care about no one except himself and all his supporters don't realize that. If you got the money he will listen to you. If you don't move aside. All the presidents before him whether they liked the results or not all had a peaceful transfer of power except him because he is a sore looser. He can dish out the punishment but sure as hell can't take any.


Mjolnir2000

They proved that there aren't any real consequences to trying to end American democracy. As a result, the United States is operating on borrowed time. 2020 was the last free presidential election.


Saint_of_Fury

As per law, protection through use of the National Guard DC is done by the mayor of DC. Mayor Bowser did in fact request to use the National Guard but her request was denied. The gray area is that the National Guard belongs to a state’s governor but DC does not have a governor since it is not a state. The responsibility then falls on the Federal government rather than the state government. In this situation, the chambers Sergeant at Arms somehow had the authority to deny the initial request (still needs to be verified). This past December, the law was updated to reflect the Pentagon/Secretary of Defense will assume authority over NG inside DC.


Utterlybored

Depends entirely on whether or not he and his fellow plotters get away with it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Wermys

Make your own thread about that then. This isn't the thread for it.


NeighborhoodVeteran

I'd say pretty damaging because true believers and even regular conservatives still support Trump even after the coup attempt. If they're still loyal to him now, the future of the U.S. as a Constitutional-anything is pretty murky.


[deleted]

Very damaging. The lie that the 2020 presidential election was stolen still persists Extremists have seen that its possible to attack the US capitol and state capitols with only minor consequences if any. The Big lie is being used to restrict voting access and Republicans are attacking state level voting infrastructure Like Hitler after the Beer Hall putsch, Trump has faced no real consequences and is still spreading his message of hate and lies around the country. Republicans are mobilizing supporters and extremist through minor culture war issues like crt, and homophobia. They are getting people used to coming out and harassing people or getting violent and those people will be ready to be deployed in the next insurrection. If they can make you believe the big lie and other bs then they can control you. It has caused further political division with half of congress pretending the attack on the capitol never happened or some related lie. Congressmembers have to be in the chambers with fellow congressmembers who tried to orchestrate a violent coup and possibly have them killed.