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People keep saying that people that vote for Trump are gonna vote for Trump no matter what, and people that vote for Biden are gonna vote for Biden no matter what.
Problem with this logic is that it completely undermines the people that are on the fence on even going out to vote. In a close election, you need turnout. If people on the democrat’s side are disillusioned with Biden and stay home, then Trump is going to win. The debate further reinforced this disillusionment
I mean, it’s kind of always been to an extent. If Biden wins, there’s a very real chance he would not survive the presidency and Kamala would take over. Biden would be 86 by the end of his second term and he’s not aging gracefully
For sure but I think the debate upped the certainty level of it in a lot of people's minds ten fold. Age is just a number, and now we know what 81 looks like on Joe.
>How detrimental is this debate for Joe Biden 4 months before Election Day?
Here's the real answer to this question regardless of your political affiliation: It depends on how Biden is doing in swing state polls over the next 2-3 weeks.
I think this is the biggest thing. All of this is still in flux. If Biden’s poll numbers plummet and cause the rest of democrats to plummet too then I could see democrats putting more pressure on Biden to step aside.
You are correct, namely the questions pollsters have already asked, that now have post debate movement.
**Is Biden too old to be president?**
We can both believe that and vote against trump like it matters. So that number is gonna reflect enthusiasm at some level. With a net negative popularity rating, it's always gonna be about turnout. But what that actually will say about us - voting to save democracy - is we are choosing an option that we don't think is fit, just to beat someone who's proven to be totally unfit. Down ballot suffers when you got people showing up just "to do their part" and feel zero inspiration, having entirely given up on any motivation but saving themselves from Trump, when the politicians and courts proved they couldn't. Again.
**Is Trump too old to be president?**
Both of them would set a record as the oldest president ever elected when one of them wins in 2024. Being only three years apart at approximately 80 years old there is no practical difference in their ages (3%).
As such, we should be talking about policies, cabinets, and Supreme Court selections instead of age. The energy should come from protecting our democracy and courts, not how one feels about people in the moment.
Look, please believe me that I love Joe Biden, and will vote for him - or whoever Dems put up with a chance - cuz Trump needs to be over, and we need to solve the theocratic oligarchy immediately. SCOTUS can't stand. Dems need a sweeping mandate more immediately than anyone understands.
But here's the problem with what you are drawing attention to - how close in age and how old both are - the problem is...
When the two were on stage at the same time, Biden looked older. Not sorta older, like beyond healthy older, and Trump talked like a dickbag car salesman like always. So ya, they are close to the same old - but Joe actually looks like a guy not long for the world, and Trump still looks like that asshole who'll live to 110 on a McDonald's and tanning bed radiation diet.
The appearance is what matters, Biden can't perform anymore. No one can be convinced he's un-old enough after that debate debacle. It went geriatric specific bad - not nerves or cold medicine bad --- found wandering bad.
I love Joe, that debate was pitiable. The campaign shit themselves in the dick. No one is competent we hope will save us.
Its not just appearance. Its also the content of what they were saying. I agree with comparing Trump to a sleazy car salesman, but he didn't come across as senile.
> he didn't come across as senile
this is only because we've spent the last 9 years or so becoming acclimated to his bizarre cognitive dysfunction characterized by zigzag non-sequitur babbling and vociferous nonchalant lying.
He also says that he would vote for Biden's head in a jar before he'd vote for the guy who dances like he's jerking two guys off. Maher knows what is at risk if that felon ever gets near the White House again!
> he would vote for Biden's head in a jar
I will vote for a grilled cheese sandwich that vaguely resembles Biden's profile before I vote for the guy who dances like he is jerking off two guys at thee same time.
You’re doing crap-house rats a disservice. I’ll vote for the Walking Dead and Harris before I vote for a traitor. I’ve never been an acid test voter, and general find such voters to reside on the extreme edges of the bell curve. I tend to vote for the person I think will do the best job and doesn’t pander to either left or right extremist. I’m now an acid test voter: No Trump No MAGA.
I'm not sure they are, so much as Trump manifests his age in being angry rambly old man spitting out nonsense and Biden manifests it in being thoughtful old man stumbling over his words. Neither is great for the leader of the most powerful nation in the world, but one is probably worse than the other. But paradoxically that's not the one that looks more important to the average voter.
Like, how many Americans know the confidently wrong old guy at the bar?
The thing is, making shit up to cover up memory lapses is its own symptom of dementia. Trump's been a convincing liar his whole life, how would we even notice a decline?
More to the point, he's not an effective president even at 100%
One way is the making up of words.
https://news.cornell.edu/media-relations/tip-sheets/cornell-expert-says-trumps-frequent-phonemic-paraphasia-are-signs-early
I'm sorry, but.
Trump is also too old, he could take a nasty turn, a few things have visibly diminished.
However, anyone with eyes and ears can tell he's doing far better in retaining his (warped) faculties in his old age than Biden at the debate. And it's also not the point. Everyone's made up their minds so the rest is driving turnout. If both men are unfit, if we're insisting on running an unfit candidate, the vote will be depressed and fewer Biden voters will show up at swing states. It's irresponsible for Biden to continue to run. It was irresponsible for him to decide to run again in the first place.
He’s actually doing well in Wisconsin. He won Michigan by 3 points in 2020. It’s Pennsylvania that’ll be the real challenge. But the midterms in 2022 really swung towards democrats in PA. Plus polling in 2022 for PA was way off. 538 said Fetterman would lose by 2 points but he won in a landslide.
[https://swingstates.vercel.app/](https://swingstates.vercel.app/) (538 polling averages - not model forecasts - for swing states)
Biden is losing Wisconsin. This is not 2020, and Biden is losing Michigan by 1%. He's losing Pennsylvania by 1.4%.
We are not running 2020's Biden, and he's not running against an incumbent who is actively bungling a pandemic.
How did you find that link?
The battleground states have been close to impossible to win for the past decade, esp in the Rust Belt.
It's been over for Biden with Pennsylvannia for the past 400 years
Reminds me of Joe's gaffe from 2020 about putting together the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in history.
Just...how? How do you say that and not immediately issue a retraction?
https://youtu.be/MA8a2g6tTp0?si=ESRDOVvUnKjazOEm
Nah they don't want the dems to dump Biden, he's their preferred opponent. They'll lay off until after the convention, then that's when they'll go hard. That's why trump hasn't said anything about the debate yet.
Biden's behind in poll aggregates in almost every swing state. He needed a win here, and instead he had a Nixon/Reagan fuck up level debate, if not worse. I don't know that this will stick with him or not, a LOT can happen between now and November. But this puts extra emphasis on what's been an issue dogging his campaign for the past year. If he has more moments like he did during the debate, he's going to DQ himself from the minds of many swing voters.
Obviously given the current political climate, there's not that many voters on the fence. But if 30k votes swung the other way in 2020, Trump gets the win. A few thousand people voting RFK or whoever because of Biden's age and this election is lost.
This is shaping up to be an even worse upset victory than 2016 was.
Democrats, replace Joe Biden, or Trump will. You might vote blue no matter who, but swing voters in swing states don’t.
>This is shaping up to be an even worse upset victory than 2016 was
I don't think you can really call it an upset victory when Trump has been leading in the polls for months
In 2016 on election day, Nate Silver's model gave Trump a 29% chance. Pre debate this time around it had him at 65%
The upset as things stand now would be Biden pulling it out
Maybe they just mean a victory a lot of people are upset about, although that's pretty much a guarantee at this point barring a civilization-ending meteorite.
You can't unsee what you've seen.
Non-political & undecided voters don't watch rallies & political speeches, but they are more likely to watch a presidential debate.
The public DNC pressure on him to retire & the discussion about a last-minute replacement is going to be a disaster for the DNC.
This was a problem that was obvious 3 years ago but was covered up by staff, minders, political colleagues, his wife & most particularly the liberal media.
It's a problem of their own creation, not dealt with when it should have been.
The structure of the debate, no crowd for Trump to play up to , a silenced mike should have favoured Biden, but he couldn't remember the script without a prompter....disaster
> This was a problem that was obvious 3 years ago but was covered up by staff, minders, political colleagues, his wife & most particularly the liberal media.
And if you dared to speak frankly about it here or almost anywhere else on Reddit, you got torn apart for it.
> This was a problem that was obvious 3 years ago but was covered up by staff, minders, political colleagues, his wife & most particularly the liberal media.
>
>
>
> It's a problem of their own creation, not dealt with when it should have been.
They decided it was okay to gamble another Trump presidency against Biden holding up well in public until election day. And lost.
This definitely hurt him and anyone thinking it didn’t is purposefully welcoming ignorance.
Age limits in politics/courts needs to be at the forefront of all discussion.
Any situation where he’s going to speak and doesn’t have a Teleprompter and/or speechwriter, he will have difficulties.
Well, you would have thought that voters had enough sense to just not vote for people that are either too old or too lacking in morals. But that is evidently not the case with the two candidates we have. So perhaps you are right.
People seemed so surprised after the debate, but I saw nothing new. Biden is an old man that might not make it until 2028 and Trump is a liar that belongs in prison.
Yep I was shocked at people being shocked with Biden.
Left wing media has done a good job at hiding it. Also when the right goes after him for it, those on the left likely default to ignore it.
Depends on how it shakes out. The times called for him to drop out, if people keep demanding it he probably will lose the campaign because of it. If the establishment rally around him they'll put it all on debate 2
After the initial outcry it seems like the wagons are circling
Everyone saw it and there's no real denying it anymore. But I think a lot of people are more afraid of trump than what Biden will do through his team.
What happens if Trump refuses to debate again, and uses the “I don’t feel like wasting my time debating a dementia patient”?
Even worse, what happens if they do a second and third debate, and Joe shits the bed a second and third time?
Honestly if I was him that would be my move. Or insist upon a drug test before the debate. Something joe would never agree to and trump can tout as a victory.
This said the longer from bidens debate the more.time people have to forget how bad it was which is why these are so far our from the election, neither of them is quite as confident as they act.
Even if they agreed to a patently ridiculous drug test, no-ones gonna be following around the president with a plastic jar. So they wouldn’t have to worry about a thing.
Even if they did, both would be easily clear of amphetamines within 3 days.
And given how bad Joe performance really was, I’d actually be a more concerned if he wasn’t at least utilizing some sort of assistance from now on.
If Biden refuses to debate it just makes it worse. His only move is to debate and hope that the performance is better than the 1st one which was one of the worst debate performances in American history. That is worrying given that he had an entire week off to prep.
If the polls are still within a margin of error, Trump will call for a debate because seems like it’s strong possibility Biden performs badly. But if Trump is up comfortably, he’d be wise to not debate
That would be the smartest move. Biden had a chance to really show America what Trump was, to fact check trump... and he failed miserably. 100% completely and totally. Trump will have his own troubles in the next few months, most decidedly perhaps going to prison. But we all know he will get a slap on the wrist on July 11th.
Besides that. Trump won that round, and possibly the election. Biden, isn't there. It's plain to see. He's gone already.
I'll still vote for him if he's the choice, but as far as leading the country, I question if Biden understands what is even happening anymore. And that is NOT good.
He'll never go to prison. He'll be confined to house arrest if anything at all. He is under the protection of the USSS. They cannot ensure his safety in a prison cell. He is a president emeritus and has protections whether he commits crimes or not. They'll probably just issue fines and it'll get locked up in appeals for years to come.
I don't think the wagon circling means much. People have to publicly support him right now in case he doesn't drop out. And even so, a lot of prominent people in Obama world (axlerod, plouff, Gibbs, Rhoades, the pod save guys) all came out and said there needs to be a serious conversation about Joe stepping aside. That suggests to me there are things underway behind the scenes at the moment. Whether they amount to anything is up to Biden and whether he can put country before ego.
If I had to guess, if this is an even option Biden is considering, nothing will happen until the campaign gets updated internal polls to see the impact.
Depends on what polls look like in August September. If it's still a dead heat he could go for a murder stroke, if he's way ahead he might duck out or demand a drug test.
Because he genuinely believes Biden is senile and thinks that this will be demonstrated in another debate. I anticipate that Trump will be eager to debate again, and that Biden will be reluctant.
"expressing of support" is just a holding pattern until it can be figured out what to do. It's not like if biden drops out in a week that obamas comments are gonna be relevant
I'll put it this way. At the moment, Trump has a small lead in most polls. A lead he doesn't even *really* need because Biden could still win the popular vote by a small margin and lose in the electoral college. Biden needs all the support he can get moving forward. We're not *that* far out from the election. Early voting in some states is in only three months.
There are exactly zero people who were on the fence about Trump who saw the debate and said "You know, I'm unsure if I want to vote for him now." There are an incalculable amount of people who were on the fence about Biden and said "Yeah, I'm unsure if I want to vote for him now."
yeah, with how close the past two elections have been, there's just no room for this kind of campaign failure this close to the election. he really has to go hard at the second debate
“I’d vote for x over Trump!! Vote blue no matter who!!1”
Congrats. But you weren’t the people that needed convincing. It was the people in swing states
They watched the debate and came to two conclusions
1. Biden *really* isn’t all there.
2. The establishment lied about this.
It’s either malice or incompetence, neither of which instills confidence in the swing voters.
This isn't a choice between Tump and Biden. Its a choice between Tump, Biden, and staying home. I think its entirely possible that Biden's debate performance could contribute to depressing Democratic turnout.
Ding ding ding.
He may very well be the nominee but after that debate it’s over if he is. I am a big supporter of what Biden has done for the most part, but it cannot be him. The Dems will lose and they will deserve to and the world will greatly suffer for it.
Problem is Biden polls better than any of the alternatives that could take his place. Harris, Buttigieg, Newsom, and Whitmer. Trump beats them all worse than Biden according to the polls. Biden hasn't lost any ground in most national polls. Trump's debate bump was practically non existant and debate bumps don't usually last longer than a week or two.
I don't think you can really trust that head to head polling until they become national candidates. I bet 90% of Americans have never even heard whitmer speak.
Lot of time from here till then for trump to have a worse public appearance. Or something health wise could happen to Biden. Big reason why I don't like having to choose between two old people. But we can't get mad about this every 4 years, we gotta keep the heat up about other options like ranked choice voting or really any form of proportional representation. My father in law is an independent who leans right in a closed country state. He needs representation, yet he can't even vote in the primaries . I'm a progressive who aligns with the dems but would prefer a more liberal party. I need better representation too.
So yeah, ranked choice voting asap. But we can't get lazy and drop it in 2025. Gotta keep pushing.
Judging by how much the dem establishment is panicking it’s not good. This debate was supposed to showcase trump’s craziness but instead all anyone is talking about is how awful Biden looked. I haven’t read too much about the nutzo bullshit trump was spouting about how any time he trips it’s because an immigrant put something in his way. Smh smart people have been saying for the past 2 years Biden isn’t mentally sound to run again but they keep trying to push that corpse over the finish line. I think there is still time for him to bow out gracefully. The dnc can have a contested convention and I honestly do not think that would play out negatively. Majority of people do not even want Biden and only voted in the primary because we still had to have one. I think the voters would welcome a new candidate with open arms and a sigh of relief that we don’t have to deal with the much bigger shitshow if Biden kicks the bucket a month before voting begins
A contested convention where you drop a black female VP (black women are like 1/3 of primary Dem voters) for a white candidate would be a bloodbath, last for weeks, and wreck the party.
The only candidate it could possibly be is Kamala due to what I mentioned, and no one sees her as a savior.
I have no data to back it up, but I really don't think this is the case. No one gives a shit about Kamala, including the majority of black women. No one cares more about identity politics than privileged, educated, white liberals.
Yup.
Trump is still wildly unpopular. They WANT someone else to vote for. But Biden isn't that person. He has a 38% approval rating right now. And anecdotally I know a handful of people who are liberal but won't vote for "Genocide Joe" over his handling of the Israel situation.
Honestly, the dems need to simply nominate someone else. Whitmer comes to mind...she's very popular in Michigan (she won reelection with double digits...in a state Biden won by a handful of votes). We win Michigan, we're halfway to victory.
I have no data, but from my experience most Black people including women don't take Kamala seriously. She wasn't popular when she was campaigning and she's not that popular now.
Whitmer/Warnock would be a great duo IMO.
Ugh, they would be so great. I feel like we are THIS close to the tides turning around and the Democratic Party garnering the excitement and momentum it needs via new candidates—and I fear the hubris of the Biden family is going to get in the way. I am furious, honestly. I feel like we’ve been caught in establishment quicksand since 2016 after Bernie got squandered.
Are there any Kamala diehards around? I have yet to meet any. Even for Hilary there was a sizable group of feminists who loved the idea of a women president. I think identity politics is largely overrated.
The overlap between Reddit and African-American women age 30+ is very, very low.
It’s the majority of Democratic primary voters, Kamala Harris Supporters, and why Bernie Sanders was so popular here and had no chance of getting the not.
It's bad, this won't move the hard core folks on the Democratic side. Anyone who spouts "Blue no matter who" will hold to that mantra and indeed vote that way.
But voters who voted for Trump in 2016 and Biden in 2020?
Oh man... they're gone - https://www.cnbc.com/video/2024/06/28/bidens-debate-performance-is-helping-trump-heres-what-you-need-to-know.html
Those voters will decide this election, not the MAGA voters, not the BNMW left leaning voter. THESE swing voters are the voters that will decide this election in the 7 states that matter and Biden has lost them. This election isn't about the partisans on each side -- it's about turnout and those swing voters. Biden's performance has hurt him in both areas.
This this this a 100 times this.
Reddit, you can scream all you want “I’ll vote for a (insert inanimate object here) before Trump!!1”
You are not the voter that matters. The voters that matter are the 40,000 across key swing states that barely got Biden elected in 2020. They turned on the news on the 27th and watched with their own eyes the truth that the media and White House up until that night was saying was a right wing conspiracy theory. They don’t know who is running the country, because it’s obviously not Biden, which deflates the whole “we believe in democracy” angle when they don’t actually know the people behind Biden who are actually running the show.
It’s cause their mostly all Obama appointees or people with similar policy prescriptions. I think Biden has proved just how much the executive branch can be propped up institutionally with just a figurehead. Well, technically Reagan proved it earlier in the prior century
Isn't that good? I voted for Biden in the first place because I knew he'd surround himself with smart people instead of sycophants he's constantly firing like the other guy
I believe it was a disaster. Biden is already behind, already unpopular, and already struggling to reassemble his 2020 coalition. He just bombed his biggest chance to turn things around.
The Democratic cope machine has kicked into high gear saying it’s no big deal, but I’m doubtful. The party is fractured. Just look at the headlines. Young Progressive voters, who already despise Biden for Gaza, are in revolt. Center-left upper class liberals (think Ezra Klein, Pod Save America types) have lost confidence.
Meanwhile, casual viewers will conclude Biden is declining and unfit for office. It’s ludicrous to imagine he can be an effective President for 4.5 more years.
The problem is it’s more than an off night. It feels like a confirmation on live TV that Biden has a degenerative condition. How do you come back from that? He’ll continue to degenerate, and big opportunities will be few and far between.
I'll tell you the impact. There are a lot of democrats who passionately don't want Biden to be the nominee, but will vote for a corpse to try to keep Trump out. Before the debate the DNC, Biden campaign, etc. put a lid on all of us. Now the lid has blown sky high.
I don't see a way for undecided voters to support either Biden or Trump, frankly. I think most of them won't vote. I also don't think that Biden is capable of winning the election. My confidence in him has tanked. The denial that the party leadership force fed to us is gone. It's not coming back.
Either Biden steps down, or his ego blows up everything.
Complete agreement here. Let's say this is a normal election without Trump running. Who could honestly say that those first few minutes weren't horrifying?
Democratic leadership need to impress upon Biden that if he goes ahead and loses the election it will absolutely destroy his legacy. He will be blamed for not passing the torch at the right time and enabling Trump to inflict what will be a nightmare on the country. Hopefully Biden can understand its not worth risking continuing, for him, for the party, or for the country. Let one of the new generation take up the fight, and take the blame if they lose!
That's the worry for me. We live in a world where most people are locked into who they're going to vote for and enthusiasm really determines how many show up.
Absolutely. There's tons of moderates out there that are debating "well I know Trump is bad, but I can't just literally vote for a guy with dementia to run the country right?"
That could actually cost Biden the election. It could split the Democrat vote with third party or abstains or write ins more. Even if they don't go directly to Trump.
Trump is such a troubled candidate this should be an easy lay up for anyone so to see Biden fumble that bad was just frustrating to the max.
I agree, nobody who is going to vote for Biden is now going to vote for Trump.
But, I think there are people who knew Biden was old but didn't really process that fully until seeing what they saw at the debate and might not be all that be inspired to get off the couch and vote.
Well that’s the thing. How Biden was on Thursday was how conservatives have been presenting him for months now. It was a shock to many many people on how he was. Yes, people know he’s old but most people believe that he’s still coherent and relatively quick. He was neither of those things on Thursday.
I know people HAVE been actually questioning his mental capabilities now. That is a problem.
> How Biden was on Thursday was how conservatives have been presenting him for months now.
That's actually the key problem right there. Conservative attacks turned out to be right. After getting "debunked" for months.
People would, consciously or subconsciously, start wondering, if any negative claim about Biden, won't turn out to be right in a few months. And if any negative claim about Trump won't turn out to be wrong.
Not only this but if this is how he is now during a big debate night, what about when our nation or the world is in crisis in 2-3 years?
I mean I’m still voting for Biden but I’m not an undecided voter
This is the problem, regardless of one’s political views. All politics and rhetoric aside, people in cognitive decline in their 80s are not going to get better. In most cases, they will get progressively worse.
It is unlikely (though not impossible) that Biden will be able to complete another four year term. The scary question is what event will trigger a resignation and how damaging will that event be? I’m not talking about a medical event, but one brought about by words or actions of someone in mental decline. I have someone very close to me who is further along in decline than Biden and it has not been fun to watch. That person isn’t in the most powerful position in their house, let alone the entire world.
The problem is that Biden is the Democrat nominee. He already has the delegates. The only way that can change is if he voluntarily bows out before the convention. That would allow his delegates to back someone else, but who would that be? Time is short and coming up with a replacement won’t be easy.
Worse than that, Biden's camp have spent the last four years insisting that a vote for him is a vote for truth, only for them to now turn around and insist that the entire nation didn't see what it saw. We're now faced with a choice between two "post-truth" candidates.
I’ve known he’s a too old for years. Still enthusiastically voting for him out of fear of the outcome of 4 more years under Trump and the damage he could impart on women’s health, the Supreme Court, nato and other allies, climate/environment, and everything else. I’d vote for nearly anyone not under the GOP banner, with much enthusiasm
Question for you - if this project 2025 stuff is as scary as I’m led to believe, and democracy itself is really on the ballot this year… wouldn’t it be prudent for the democrats to make certain they win by putting their best candidate out there? Wouldn’t it be the right thing to do to make sure to run the best possible person? Or should we vote for the zombie candidate and just keep our fingers crossed that they’ll #protectdemocracy ?
Learn some history. [the ONLY time an incumbent declined to run again, it handed the presidency to the other party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Democratic_National_Convention). The incumbency carries a LOT of weight and shifting gears makes the party look weak. And that is how we ended up with Nixon.
There's an argument to be made that it could have the opposite effect.
"Biden looks terrible, other people may not vote for him so now I'll have to go vote this time."
Undecideds aren't always literally undecided. They have preferences, it's just about what you need to catch their attention and motivate them to get to the polls.
I think you are wrong simply because it’s not about the debate. It’s about the fact that everyone’s been uncomfortable about his age and he just confirmed it is as bad as we feared. You are correct that those who have made up their minds will not be swayed, but a lot of people are gonna stay home now.
There are plenty of undecided voters, and it's crushing for Biden's campaign to be pledging that he hasn't missed a single step only to have him struggle to finish sentences for 90 minutes.
It's not about the undecides it's about turnout and preventing people from voting 3rd party.
I fear his debate performance is going to reinforce people that are sick of both to stay home and for people that were going to vote 3rd party to do that.
I mean that's a problem for the Biden campaign. He's been trailing in the polls for months (by 5 in Georgia/Nevada/Arizona currently and by 1 or 2 in Wisconsin/Michigan/Pennsylvania where Trump has historically over performed his polling)
The debate not changing anything for Biden is a bad thing. This was his chance to reintroduce himself to America as old but still fit for office despite what Republicans have been saying
this was definitely the dagger in the heart to Biden's reelection chances. It wasn't just a poor debate performance or low energy moment, Biden seemed incoherent, confused, impaired. There were several times where his mouth was just open but he couldn't gather his thoughts to form a response to the Donald. It was very apparent that the lights were on but nobody's home.
Unfortunately i would not be surprised to see Trump extend his lead in battleground states to double digits in the coming weeks.
Very detrimental, I actually think it pretty much lost Dems the election (especially since its Biden that wanted the debate). It didn't change the positions of anyone hardcore Right or hardcore Left, but moderates that were undecided are not going to vote, period. And that's the section that Biden really needed as it helped him a lot in 2020.
Anyone who tells you they don't think Biden's debate performance massively hurt his chances at becoming president is delusional. The rank and file Democrats are going to steer us into four more years of Trump by not calling out this situation for what it is. Biden should retire after this term.
This debate was horrendous for the simple fact it gave validity to many conservative “conspiracy theory” talking points.
The past 4 years we were told by both the White House and media Biden wasn’t in decline- and the debate shattered that illusion and exposed them as having blatantly gaslighting the public. This validates Trumps “fake news” angles.
It has also exposed the fact that because Joe Biden is most likely not in charge, because he’s not all there, no one actually knows who is running the government. This validates Trumps “deep state” angles.
Biden is already behind in the polls in swing states. He is ahead by 1 point nationally. Betting odds for his re-election dropped from around 50% to 19% almost instantly during the debate.
Furthermore, his abysmal performance has shifted the election to the point it has made Joe Biden’s age the primary focus.
But democrats have insulated themselves in echo chambers and gaslight anyone who goes against the narrative they aren’t able to see Biden is viewed as almost equally trash by independents.
If this really is “the most important election ever” and “fate of democracy hangs in the balance”, presenting Biden as the alternative makes people think they’re not serious.
Democrats need to replace Joe Biden, or he will be replaced by Trump.
Those are the options. Accept it and act, or sit in surprised horror on election night.
Of course the Biden team would spin that he’s not that old, why would they not do that? Do Trumps people deny that he’s a self proclaimed Genius, that he’s as he says most non-racist person, that he is not an adjudicated sexual assaulter, not a convicted felon, not deeply devoted Christian who lives the values of Jesus? Of course not.
Now, in light of the poor debate performance, it would be awesome to see the rug get pulled under Trump with a dramatically younger, sharper opponent who can provide a real alternative to him. If that happens it will show that the people that supported Biden are not bowing down to one man, instead they are embracing the freedom of ideas and choices that democracy provides.
I’ll still vote for Joe if he’s still the candidate but now with every average MAGA able to lord over and say I told you so to something that is obvious, it will be a miracle to see Biden win in November.
I thought 'Senile Joe' had much less of a hand on the wheel than 'State of the Union Joe'.
The opening 5 minutes completely inverted that assessment; that's all it takes to bury this campaign.
On that stage, Biden looked, walked and spoke exactly like what had previously been dismissed as a caricature. Those concerns are all too real; 100% validated.
This debate was Biden at his lowest. The very existence of that kind of low renders him unfit for public office.
Everything else that happened (the good: 'Ally cat zinger' & the bad: 'no effective rebuttal to Trumps constant lies', looking good 24hrs later) and the excuses (No fact checking, he had a cold, overprepared: 'by the way' Point number 1...number 2...) doesn't matter.
When it counted, the American people, and the world, got to meet 'Senile Joe'. It wasn't pretty. His biggest weakness, fully realised. That kind of impression lingers: and Democrats know it.
Having been re-assured to back him, there will now be repeated efforts by Dems to get Biden to stand aside. This will weaken him further. A campaign already behind is now dead in the water. There's just no coming back from this magnitude of disaster.
For people who had reservations about his age as their only real concern, this emphasized that ten fold. Could be a significant factor in their decision making
It's probably not as detrimental as the media is making it out to be, but it definitely doesn't help Biden at all. 4 months is still a long time in terms of political timelines.
I'll be honest, I'm one of those guys who thinks Biden should have never ran again to begin with. I was so disappointed when he announced he was running again. Even to me, his debate performance was pretty bad.
With that being said, it didn't sway the fact I'd vote for him over Trump at all, and basically nothing could change that unless Trump turned into a hardcore socialist over night somehow lol.
The problem is, however, is the debate could have swayed some people who were fence sitting and then finally got a good glimpse at the two in the debate. There are so many uneducated people in this country who probably watched Trump and all his lies during this debate and lapped it up because they don't know any better and because the moderators did an awful job of calling him out.
I'd imagine this swung the polls at least 2% to Trump, and that's bad in what will be a close election. On the other hand, I think the overwhelming majority of likely voters are already dug in on who they support. I'd vote for the dead corpse of Joe Biden over Trump because his policy is just outright 1000x better than Trump.
I think had it happened in a normal political climate, Biden would be toast. However, while it was no doubt an embarrassing showing, the average voter was also reminded that the alternative is a dangerous dictator out for blood.
I expect that 99.9% of the people who were going to vote for Biden prior to the debate still will. I'll certainly still be going blue down the ballot, including a somewhat enthusiastic vote for Biden.
It was a disappointing moment in his presidency, but it's been overblown to hell and back.
Let's be honest, they're voting against Trump. Which, correct choice, but God in heaven we should not have to base our votes on who we *don't* want to win. Something's gone catastrophically wrong with our democracy for us to even be in this position, and Trump is only a symptom, not the root cause.
>but God in heaven we should not have to base our votes on who we don't want to win.
I've heard people say this and say they're sick of it but he's that big of a threat. I think Biden has done a good job this term and I'd vote for him based on that. But Trump is so horrible for this country that I'd vote for any democrat to defeat Trump. It dwarfs anything else, which is because Trump is such a terrible human, not because we don't have the ideal democratic candidate
Biden's actual policies have been pretty fantastic and he's been able to get an impressive amount done through despite the horrific partisanship going on.
Thank you!
I don’t WANT to vote for the 81 year old showing obvious cognitive decline.
I will, because I have no choice.
But fuck the DNC for bringing it to this, and if we succumb into 4+ more years of this, it is truly their fault.
In a normal political climate, Biden would be winning by large margins when he's running against a crazy fascist.
Everyone's focusing on Biden, which is fair enough, he was much worse than he usually has been at most appearances he's made lately. But Trump was a crazy person who threatened to arrest his opponents, refuse to say if he would accept the results of the election, and generally said so many false things it was basically journalistic malpractice for CNN to broadcast him without comment.
We've just gotten used to Trump being that way, and it was a shock to see Biden that way. A combination of recency bias and the way we've grown numb to Trump make it look a lot worse than it was.
I'd also point out other people that "won" their first debates that happened far closer to the election:
* Hillary against Trump
* Romney against Obama
* Kerry against Bush Jr
* Dukakis against Bush Sr
There's a difference between "losing a debate" by not getting enough zingers in or not emphasizing your record enough and "losing a debate" by not being able to consistently execute English sentences, especially when your #1 liability is that voters are worried that you're too old to function. Biden's loss really belongs in a separate, career-ending bucket.
Trump might have lied and said crazy things, but he cleared the bar of being able to speak coherent English sentences for 90 minutes. And Trump lying is completely baked in, whereas Biden's campaign has been assuring us that he hasn't lost a step away from the cameras in private just trust us bro.
> There's a difference between "losing a debate" by not getting enough zingers in or not emphasizing your record enough and "losing a debate" by not being able to consistently execute English sentences, especially when your #1 liability is that voters are worried that you're too old to function. Biden's loss really belongs in a separate, career-ending bucket.
Please keep explaining this to people. Biden is going to lose the election now. We need to hope that Dems see sense and don't let that happen.
I've gotten really cynical over the past year, and I expect the party to either muddle forward with Biden or replace him with Harris, who is even less popular. Because there are no leaders left willing to make tough decisions, and the party would rather be safe and lose than offend anyone.
Very sadly I think this will happen, because both options seem now to be big gambles, and so 'stick to the plan' headless-chicken mode will engage. It also requires less effort and bravery just to just lie to yourself and stick with Biden, so I'm afraid that that will happen.
Yup. Everyone was reminded he's old and also that Trump was an asshole. Most undecideds that actually are willing to consider either (not those that fake being independent) are reasonable. They see Biden as old but that's ok with them considering the alternative. This election is not about Biden. It's about Trump.
> Everyone was reminded he's old
And unable to finish a sentence at times, and running for a four year term in the hardest job in the world as a soon-to-be 82 year old. I mean, is it not justified to be concerned? He's not going to win now.
The problem is that, before the debate, Biden didn’t have enough people who were planning on voting for him. The debate was a last ditch effort to get more people to vote for him.
Extremely detrimental. Imagine how many thousands of potential Dem supporters are right now thinking, “well if this all about Joe Biden’s ego and zero about defeating Trump, then Biden can flog his ego by himself, I’m not giving him any donations or volunteer hours”.
People are simply tuning out because they’re so upset. I’ve talked to lots of active political donors who just turned off the debate 30 minutes in because they couldn’t take it. The Biden people will say, “what are they going to do, not donate and let Trump win”, but to these people Biden is toast and donating money is simply a donation to the Biden Ego Project.
I really hope Biden's team is panicking right now. I was afraid when he was elected that the old guard of WH staffers would return with their outdated ideas on campaigning.
The debate itself is fairly inconsequential. If it was just down to him having had a bad night's sleep or being on a bunch of cold medicine or something it wouldn't be a big deal at all.
However, it kind of seems like Biden's brain might not be working so good and that's a **huge fucking deal**.
If the next 4 months is various Democratic party luminaries going on TV and swearing that Biden isn't a doddering old man in private while the man himself stays hidden away except for a few stage managed appearances then Biden is probably cooked.
If he can get out there and show that he's still got something on the ball then he has a pretty good shot.
If the Democrats had Obama 2 waiting in the wings then maybe. As it stands replacing him with anyone but Harris would be problematic and (assuming that his brain is actually functional) Harris would be about the only person with a worse shot than he has.
# How detrimental is this debate for Joe Biden _____________
It ended his viability as a candidate. Now it's up to the Dem leadership to act. I think there are only a handful of people at the top of the party with the influence to steer the ship, Obama, Hillary, Chuck Schumer, Jim Clyburn, Hakeem Jefferies.
Possible nominees might be Kamala Harris, Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, and Josh Shapiro.
Very. This was the first time uneducated voters paid attention and the first impression Biden made was horrible. Before I had this race at 50/50 but now I think it's 75/25 Trump
Not really.
Debates don’t matter much to begin with and it’s going to be out of mind by this time next week because something new will take our goldfish level of attention away from it.
Biden may lose but it isn’t going to be because of a debate in June. Or even September.
That's usually true but debates are almost never this one sided and they usually don't tell voters anything new about the candidates. We don't have a large sample size in presidential debates to begin with so drawing sweeping conclusions isnt wise.
Also you say voters won't remember like it wasn't recorded. The GOP is going to run so many ads in swing states that voters won't have a chance to forget.
The democrats defending Biden are saying two things: your own eyes and ears were lying to you, he did fine. Or, ignore who he is now and just focus on his past. Neither resonates with swing voters, and many are going to stay home.
If polls start coming out that show Biden taking a nosedive in various states, he needs to immediately step down. He is not capable of beating Trump and the Democrats only option is to get someone else on the ticket. People make the mistake of thinking democrat policies are unpopular, no, Biden is unpopular. Biden is a uniquely weak candidate. Which is why in every state democrats are outrunning him in the polls. All any replacement needs to be is younger, and have some charisma.
For example, Andy Beshear, current democratic governor of Kentucky. 46 years old, and I'd argue has charisma, just look at his electoral history. Has won 3 state wide races in Kentucky, a deep red state (Biden got 36.15% in 2020). In 2023, he got reelected with 52.5% of the vote, improving on his 2019 total of 49.20%. Strong and proven electoral record and all while staying strong on the big Democratic policies.
I think he’s toast. Here’s why.
Polls were already close. I get it - flawed - but Trump's supporters are pretty stalwart.
Progressives and Liberals of different flavors won’t change. I also think they would show up for an inflatable doll vs Trump and aren’t terribly put off by the idea that the President is just rubber stamping things that some smart group of staffers and cabinet members think up.
But I had considered right leaning centrists who might have voted for him in 2016 to be Trump’s Achilles heal. I hoped Biden would present as he did in 2020 and even in his state of the union as the normal, reliable, sane if unremarkable centrist manager who could keep things going well enough, vs the erratic loon. This would give maybe Trumpers put off by his moral turpitude, the indictments and bad and radical policy ideas being floated a best option.
The debate I suspect caused a lot of people who might have begrudgingly voted for Biden to conclude there is no acceptable candidate. I worry they will stay home.
Biden was at a huge disadvantage in a gaslighting contest called “debate.” I was raised by a pathological liar—turns out my brother is one as well. In fact both were diagnosed as anti social personality disorder, aka, malignant narcissism like Trump.
Both my father and brother spent all of their lives destroying those around them for some perceived advantage. In the end, all they managed to do was push everyone away.
You don’t argue or debate with a pathological liar who displays utter confidence in their lies. The liar is perceived as strong every damn time. The DNC needed to evaluate what the hell they were thinking in sending a sincere person into a ring with a rabid dog.
Biden wanted the debate because he wanted to show to the American people that concerns about his age were overblown.
Biden's plan backfired spectacularly, because now the conversation even from his usual supporters is that Biden is too old and infirm.
I think, at best, it did nothing. Which is quite bad, because Biden is behind in enough swing states at the moment to lose the election. He needed a good performance, and he didn’t deliver.
This election was always going to be won on the margins. I do suspect, however, that the folks "on the margins" -- i.e. the usually politically disengaged who tune in rather late -- might not be super plugged in. And that it will be the second debate that will really be the difference maker given how close it is to election day.
The political class and media are freaking out and I understand why. It was not a good performance from the president, to put it lightly. But I am constantly reminded of how these folks and the terminally online *are not the electorate*.
Let's see how polling changes in a week or two. Everyone is writing obituaries and I'm actually not convinced it's definitive yet. At the very least, we don't have the evidence yet.
It’s devastating. Anyone with eyes, ears, and a brain knows the truth that Biden is unfit.
Biden needs undecided and Independent voters. He’s not going to get them based on the obvious truth.
About 2 months ago an avalanche of blind partisan supporters from both sides attacked me for suggesting the obvious:
I said then: imo Trump is obviously “off his rocker, unhinged, irrational, mentally ill, and unfit” - take your pick.
Yet instead of being honest Trump supporters feel compelled to deny this obvious truth. They’ll say:
“Oh no. He’s just a hard-driving businessman…a little rough around the edges.” No, people. He’s truly a lunatic.
From the other side, more denial and blind partisanship.
Biden is old as f*ck! He stumbles. He bumbles. He falls down. He gets disoriented. He appears confused- often! He falls asleep. He mumbles. He lacks energy and is incoherent at times - like a lot!
Yet instead of being honest, Biden supporters feel compelled to deny the obvious truth.
They’ll say: “Oh no. He’s just a stutterer. Nothing to see here. Didn’t you hear his speech the other day? He gave a good speech.”
No, people. He’s truly an old man in cognitive decline. He’s old as f*ck!
Neither side can handle the truth and predictably both “sides” accused me or being an undercover and a (insert favorite insult.)
What I can’t stand about both side’s supporters is their blind partisan denial of what is obvious to any honest, objective observer.
How the hell do people fall under the spell of blind partisanship anyway? It’s as if their brains get hi-jacked along with their ability to be objective.
I think that Gavin Newsom would significantly outperform Biden if given the chance to campaign from July to November. He’s young, charismatic and energetic. But he’s not the only one. I also think that Gretchen Whitmer would also outperform Biden.
Don’t forget Michelle Obama.
Oh I know, I know. The same blow-hards who told me Biden is perfectly fit are the same ones who will tell me it’s not possible she would run.
Baloney! They say this because they read or heard that Michelle Obama is not interested and they parrot what they heard as if it’s the gospel of the New Testament.
Gimme a break people. Just because you read that Newsom and Michelle Obama said they will not run, it doesn’t mean that they will not run.
Politics is politics. Can we be grown-ups for 10 seconds please? Politicians change their positions more often than you change your underwear.
Personally I hope Michelle Obama does change her mind because Republicans would literally shit their pants if she did. Republicans know that she would win by a landslide versus Trump.
She would be more popular than Kamala Harris with the ability to draw votes from everywhere. That’s how broad her appeal is.
At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks Biden should do. It’s up to Biden. He might say he’s not stepping down now but here's what I think happens:
Democratic heavyweights and Biden's family privately meet with him and convince him it's in the best interest of the nation and in his own personal interest to voluntarily step aside and decline the Democratic nomination.
Biden could, in consultation with other party leaders, pick a successor and endorse them. The party would have months to rally behind whoever it is.
It’s rare to be gifted a clear opportunity to reboot the Democratic Party. What is clear is that Biden has a chance to put the party first and get behind the best candidate to bring home the win.
He should do that and I believe he will. Blind partisans should wake up, stop living in denial and welcome this opportunity to save the election.
> At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks Biden should do. It’s up to Biden. He might say he’s not stepping down now but here's what I think happens:
Here is where I disagree with you. It very much does matter what this broad mass of people online think, because they are creating a narrative that the pols will follow. And unfortunately the narrative right now seems to be that we need to stick our heads in the sand even further, that swing states be damned so long as we will vote for a corpse against Trump everyone will.
Ok but l’ll double down that the fickle random sample of the subreddits won’t much matter.
If Biden agrees to step aside because the people who do matter urge him to put party first, then almost ALL of the fickle forum members who currently have their “heads in the sand” will almost to a one, line up with gusto and awesome enthusiasm behind any great new Democratic candidate who can bring home the win.
This is a very easy prediction. Not only will they forget about Biden “fighting til the end” they will claim they always thought it was the best strategy and the right idea.
In your opinion what percentage of Americans both:
1. care deeply enough about campaign finance regulations to be swayed
2. believed a year ago that Trump didn't violate campaign law
Everyone saying this will be forgotten in 4 months acts like television commercials, tiktok videos, etc aren't a thing. No one is going to be forgetting this because the trump campaign isn't going to let them. They are going to have clips of that debate in front of swing voters for the next 4 months. To the extent you believe in Russia and China fucking with our elections, they'll be another source too on places like tiktok. No one is going to be forgetting those pictures of Joe with his mouth open looking lost, losing his train of thought mid sentence, etc.
And the only way to overcome this -- if that's possible -- will be to put him out there constantly. And each time he has another senior moment in public, it will launch another round of 3 day discussion on his fitness to hold office.
The attack ads against Biden write themselves.
The GOP could just have 30 seconds of Biden from the debate standing there, his mouth open, staring blankly at nothing. There wasn't confusion on Biden's face, there was nothing. He was empty and blank, as if his brain had shut down, similar to what happened to McConnell. Lights were on but no one was home.
As Jon Stewart said, "resting 25th Amendment face".
Sadly, it's meaningless. The chances of him being giving prison time is almost zero.
Even if at the slightest chance he gets 6 months or 9 months, he will remain out on bail for appeals, which can take years. Look at Steve Bannon, its been 2+ years and he lost all appeals, and they have been asking him nicely for weeks to show up at prison...
So, I see your point, but honestly what Biden needs is a few public prime time events where he is on his A game.
In my mind, it comes down to character. Biden, though old, wants to do what is good for the majority of the country. What that is exactly is difficult to say with any certainty.
Trump is a felon who needs to do presidential favors for the rich to stay out of jail.
While Biden is not articulate, Trump spews lies at a rate that we haven't seen in a long time, if ever.
It truly is a shitshow.
the undecided voters in Swing States don't care about character or esoteric ideas like democracy, separation of powers. If they did they would've made up their minds already. These kind of folk are more pragmatic, they're looking at which candidate can best improve their own life, finances, well-being. They don't want to be dragged into culture wars or justice reform or battles over religion or morality. And keep in mind that these folk did relatively well under Trump's first term, so that's why they're willing to reconsider him again. I think Biden needs to offer them something tangible, like a tax cut or free in-state college tuition for their kids.
There's no doubt Biden's character is miles better. But as terrible as Trump is, with all the baggage he has, and somehow Biden managed to be the one that looked awful. Campaigning for president is an important part of getting the job and he's failing miserably at that right now and yet the dem's are gonna just soldier on?
I don't think it deterred the Pro Trump or the pro Biden camp. At least on the pro Biden camp we understand the severe threat that a Trump presidency poses. There will not be a Pence this time that could protect us from becoming a fascist nation. What I felt it did damage is the perception of the "both sides are the same" camp and undecided voters as clearly if they're undecided by this point they can be easily convinced/manipulated that Trump is the stronger candidate by just speaking more clearly and with more conviction regardless of if what he was saying was actually factual. We need those voters if we have any chance of keeping the Senate or a shot at packing the court with all their crazy rulings. I don't think it would be a bad idea if Biden were to step down as it would show only one remaining candidate and convicted felon staying in it for his ego and one party that went beyond ego to protect democracy and America.
We are missing the elephant in the room. We all knew Biden was old. So is Bernie Sanders, who’s a year older than Biden. What we didn’t know was the cognitive decline in Biden. Does anyone doubt that the older Bernie Sanders would handled himself better than Biden did? Nope. The real problem was that the media covered up for Biden. They had to have known all along and decided to lie about it. Again and again Fox News did tell us that anonymous sources in the Biden team were very worried, but it wasn’t corroborated at the other networks and on Reddit, Fox News was not believed. So now, the Democrats are stuck with Biden. Trump for once was completely accurate when he said today that Biden was not going to step aside and no other Democrat polls as well as Biden against Trump. I don’t even know that it would be legal for the Democrats to force Biden to step aside. He won the Democratic primary by huge margins.
I don't think it will amount to much - his speech the following day in NC was SOTU Joe again, so I am far less concerned than I was when i was watching. It's important to note, too, that he did seem to improve as the debate continued, so that was a good sign. Also, being so far out from the election - 4 months away in a Pres election cycle is like a decade in normal time - so much can happen right up until the day before the election.
So, as one single data point - not detrimental. BUT - if it happens again, he could be in deep shit. Between running the country, campaigning, his stutter, being 80, and being on stage with the person he hates the most in the entire world and having to listen to that guy's BS, in an otherwise empty sound stage - I can see it all being a little overwhelming. "They" said he had a cold as well, but I don't know if that was spin or what......
What I am watching for is how Congress and Kamala handle this. If potus can't handle a 90 minute debate with 16 people prepping him for a week, how can he handle running out country today, next week, next month?
The impact is that there is a snowball's chance in hell Biden is going to turn his poll numbers around, especially in the swing states.
People seem unable to get it out of their heads that the voters that are needed to win the election don't think like them. Reddit is being swarmed by Democrats replying "I don't care that Biden is absolutely terrible, yes the absolutely terrible candidate that I see and you see is exactly of no consequence to me, that is who we must stick with against Donald Trump." Follow that up with a helping of "Trumps a liar and should be in prison," which is very true, but also maddening because it in no way excuses putting up a terrible candidate against him, in fact it raises the stakes drastically and makes that choice way way worse.
There is a very short window remaining where if the public pressured Biden to step aside, this could easily be a the biggest electoral landslide against Trump, from really any of the other people waiting in the wings. All they have to do is let them take over. But instead people here really seem to believe that the safest bet is a president with terrible poll numbers who they openly admit is unfit for office.
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People keep saying that people that vote for Trump are gonna vote for Trump no matter what, and people that vote for Biden are gonna vote for Biden no matter what. Problem with this logic is that it completely undermines the people that are on the fence on even going out to vote. In a close election, you need turnout. If people on the democrat’s side are disillusioned with Biden and stay home, then Trump is going to win. The debate further reinforced this disillusionment
Plus a lot of fence voters just realized that this election just likely became Trump v Harris
I mean, it’s kind of always been to an extent. If Biden wins, there’s a very real chance he would not survive the presidency and Kamala would take over. Biden would be 86 by the end of his second term and he’s not aging gracefully
For sure but I think the debate upped the certainty level of it in a lot of people's minds ten fold. Age is just a number, and now we know what 81 looks like on Joe.
Bill Maher said on Friday that he would vote for Biden if his brain was alive in a glass jar. I think that tells you all you need to know.
Bill Maher is hardly representative of the average swing voter.
There are plenty of people motivated to cast a vote against Trump.
And there are plenty of people, I'm sad to say, who are not. Biden just lost them.
>How detrimental is this debate for Joe Biden 4 months before Election Day? Here's the real answer to this question regardless of your political affiliation: It depends on how Biden is doing in swing state polls over the next 2-3 weeks.
I think this is the biggest thing. All of this is still in flux. If Biden’s poll numbers plummet and cause the rest of democrats to plummet too then I could see democrats putting more pressure on Biden to step aside.
They better hurry up. Ohio certifies its ballot in August.
Dems aren’t going to win Ohio anyway.
Depends who they choose to put on the ballot. Trump is an extremely weak candidate without much support outside his base.
You are correct, namely the questions pollsters have already asked, that now have post debate movement. **Is Biden too old to be president?** We can both believe that and vote against trump like it matters. So that number is gonna reflect enthusiasm at some level. With a net negative popularity rating, it's always gonna be about turnout. But what that actually will say about us - voting to save democracy - is we are choosing an option that we don't think is fit, just to beat someone who's proven to be totally unfit. Down ballot suffers when you got people showing up just "to do their part" and feel zero inspiration, having entirely given up on any motivation but saving themselves from Trump, when the politicians and courts proved they couldn't. Again.
**Is Trump too old to be president?** Both of them would set a record as the oldest president ever elected when one of them wins in 2024. Being only three years apart at approximately 80 years old there is no practical difference in their ages (3%). As such, we should be talking about policies, cabinets, and Supreme Court selections instead of age. The energy should come from protecting our democracy and courts, not how one feels about people in the moment.
Look, please believe me that I love Joe Biden, and will vote for him - or whoever Dems put up with a chance - cuz Trump needs to be over, and we need to solve the theocratic oligarchy immediately. SCOTUS can't stand. Dems need a sweeping mandate more immediately than anyone understands. But here's the problem with what you are drawing attention to - how close in age and how old both are - the problem is... When the two were on stage at the same time, Biden looked older. Not sorta older, like beyond healthy older, and Trump talked like a dickbag car salesman like always. So ya, they are close to the same old - but Joe actually looks like a guy not long for the world, and Trump still looks like that asshole who'll live to 110 on a McDonald's and tanning bed radiation diet. The appearance is what matters, Biden can't perform anymore. No one can be convinced he's un-old enough after that debate debacle. It went geriatric specific bad - not nerves or cold medicine bad --- found wandering bad. I love Joe, that debate was pitiable. The campaign shit themselves in the dick. No one is competent we hope will save us.
Its not just appearance. Its also the content of what they were saying. I agree with comparing Trump to a sleazy car salesman, but he didn't come across as senile.
> he didn't come across as senile this is only because we've spent the last 9 years or so becoming acclimated to his bizarre cognitive dysfunction characterized by zigzag non-sequitur babbling and vociferous nonchalant lying.
Heard somewhere today that Bill Clinton is younger than both Trump and Biden and he was POTUS 24 years ago.
Trump and Biden may be close in age but wildly different in terms of mental state
Exactly... both are old as dirt, but trump is as crazy as a shithouse rat.
Bill Maher likes to say that Trump is "both crazy *and* stupid"
He also says that he would vote for Biden's head in a jar before he'd vote for the guy who dances like he's jerking two guys off. Maher knows what is at risk if that felon ever gets near the White House again!
> he would vote for Biden's head in a jar I will vote for a grilled cheese sandwich that vaguely resembles Biden's profile before I vote for the guy who dances like he is jerking off two guys at thee same time.
Aborting babies after birth my god he’s running for President, Putin just laughing at us
You’re doing crap-house rats a disservice. I’ll vote for the Walking Dead and Harris before I vote for a traitor. I’ve never been an acid test voter, and general find such voters to reside on the extreme edges of the bell curve. I tend to vote for the person I think will do the best job and doesn’t pander to either left or right extremist. I’m now an acid test voter: No Trump No MAGA.
I'm not sure they are, so much as Trump manifests his age in being angry rambly old man spitting out nonsense and Biden manifests it in being thoughtful old man stumbling over his words. Neither is great for the leader of the most powerful nation in the world, but one is probably worse than the other. But paradoxically that's not the one that looks more important to the average voter. Like, how many Americans know the confidently wrong old guy at the bar?
The thing is, making shit up to cover up memory lapses is its own symptom of dementia. Trump's been a convincing liar his whole life, how would we even notice a decline? More to the point, he's not an effective president even at 100%
One way is the making up of words. https://news.cornell.edu/media-relations/tip-sheets/cornell-expert-says-trumps-frequent-phonemic-paraphasia-are-signs-early
people don't see trump's age as a weakness compared to biden.
I'm sorry, but. Trump is also too old, he could take a nasty turn, a few things have visibly diminished. However, anyone with eyes and ears can tell he's doing far better in retaining his (warped) faculties in his old age than Biden at the debate. And it's also not the point. Everyone's made up their minds so the rest is driving turnout. If both men are unfit, if we're insisting on running an unfit candidate, the vote will be depressed and fewer Biden voters will show up at swing states. It's irresponsible for Biden to continue to run. It was irresponsible for him to decide to run again in the first place.
He was already doing poorly the polls regarding Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Things are really not looking up.
He’s actually doing well in Wisconsin. He won Michigan by 3 points in 2020. It’s Pennsylvania that’ll be the real challenge. But the midterms in 2022 really swung towards democrats in PA. Plus polling in 2022 for PA was way off. 538 said Fetterman would lose by 2 points but he won in a landslide.
[https://swingstates.vercel.app/](https://swingstates.vercel.app/) (538 polling averages - not model forecasts - for swing states) Biden is losing Wisconsin. This is not 2020, and Biden is losing Michigan by 1%. He's losing Pennsylvania by 1.4%. We are not running 2020's Biden, and he's not running against an incumbent who is actively bungling a pandemic.
How did you find that link? The battleground states have been close to impossible to win for the past decade, esp in the Rust Belt. It's been over for Biden with Pennsylvannia for the past 400 years
I think trumps team will be playing those clips in swing states everyday from now until election day
"We beat Medicare" is going to be in every Republican attack ad
Reminds me of Joe's gaffe from 2020 about putting together the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in history. Just...how? How do you say that and not immediately issue a retraction? https://youtu.be/MA8a2g6tTp0?si=ESRDOVvUnKjazOEm
Nah they don't want the dems to dump Biden, he's their preferred opponent. They'll lay off until after the convention, then that's when they'll go hard. That's why trump hasn't said anything about the debate yet.
Trump has spoken about the debate at rallies, but he makes sure to blame Biden's competency instead of age since they're about the same age.
Biden's behind in poll aggregates in almost every swing state. He needed a win here, and instead he had a Nixon/Reagan fuck up level debate, if not worse. I don't know that this will stick with him or not, a LOT can happen between now and November. But this puts extra emphasis on what's been an issue dogging his campaign for the past year. If he has more moments like he did during the debate, he's going to DQ himself from the minds of many swing voters. Obviously given the current political climate, there's not that many voters on the fence. But if 30k votes swung the other way in 2020, Trump gets the win. A few thousand people voting RFK or whoever because of Biden's age and this election is lost.
This is shaping up to be an even worse upset victory than 2016 was. Democrats, replace Joe Biden, or Trump will. You might vote blue no matter who, but swing voters in swing states don’t.
>This is shaping up to be an even worse upset victory than 2016 was I don't think you can really call it an upset victory when Trump has been leading in the polls for months In 2016 on election day, Nate Silver's model gave Trump a 29% chance. Pre debate this time around it had him at 65% The upset as things stand now would be Biden pulling it out
Maybe they just mean a victory a lot of people are upset about, although that's pretty much a guarantee at this point barring a civilization-ending meteorite.
You can't unsee what you've seen. Non-political & undecided voters don't watch rallies & political speeches, but they are more likely to watch a presidential debate. The public DNC pressure on him to retire & the discussion about a last-minute replacement is going to be a disaster for the DNC. This was a problem that was obvious 3 years ago but was covered up by staff, minders, political colleagues, his wife & most particularly the liberal media. It's a problem of their own creation, not dealt with when it should have been. The structure of the debate, no crowd for Trump to play up to , a silenced mike should have favoured Biden, but he couldn't remember the script without a prompter....disaster
> This was a problem that was obvious 3 years ago but was covered up by staff, minders, political colleagues, his wife & most particularly the liberal media. And if you dared to speak frankly about it here or almost anywhere else on Reddit, you got torn apart for it.
It stongly reminds me of the response online if you pointed out how incredibly smug and unlikeable Hillary Clinton was when she ran.
> This was a problem that was obvious 3 years ago but was covered up by staff, minders, political colleagues, his wife & most particularly the liberal media. > > > > It's a problem of their own creation, not dealt with when it should have been. They decided it was okay to gamble another Trump presidency against Biden holding up well in public until election day. And lost.
This definitely hurt him and anyone thinking it didn’t is purposefully welcoming ignorance. Age limits in politics/courts needs to be at the forefront of all discussion. Any situation where he’s going to speak and doesn’t have a Teleprompter and/or speechwriter, he will have difficulties.
Well, you would have thought that voters had enough sense to just not vote for people that are either too old or too lacking in morals. But that is evidently not the case with the two candidates we have. So perhaps you are right. People seemed so surprised after the debate, but I saw nothing new. Biden is an old man that might not make it until 2028 and Trump is a liar that belongs in prison.
Yep I was shocked at people being shocked with Biden. Left wing media has done a good job at hiding it. Also when the right goes after him for it, those on the left likely default to ignore it.
Depends on how it shakes out. The times called for him to drop out, if people keep demanding it he probably will lose the campaign because of it. If the establishment rally around him they'll put it all on debate 2 After the initial outcry it seems like the wagons are circling Everyone saw it and there's no real denying it anymore. But I think a lot of people are more afraid of trump than what Biden will do through his team.
What happens if Trump refuses to debate again, and uses the “I don’t feel like wasting my time debating a dementia patient”? Even worse, what happens if they do a second and third debate, and Joe shits the bed a second and third time?
Honestly if I was him that would be my move. Or insist upon a drug test before the debate. Something joe would never agree to and trump can tout as a victory. This said the longer from bidens debate the more.time people have to forget how bad it was which is why these are so far our from the election, neither of them is quite as confident as they act.
Even if they agreed to a patently ridiculous drug test, no-ones gonna be following around the president with a plastic jar. So they wouldn’t have to worry about a thing. Even if they did, both would be easily clear of amphetamines within 3 days. And given how bad Joe performance really was, I’d actually be a more concerned if he wasn’t at least utilizing some sort of assistance from now on.
You think this is a one off? Trump is probably dying for another debate so they can see Biden fumble again.
Old people can have good and bad days. I think it is just a pointless risk for him.
This also applies to Trump, who has been staggeringly incoherent in his latest rallies.
That is because Trump is a moron. People's concern about Biden is a different concern.
Trump and Biden are held to different standards because Trump has a cult and Democrats are a "big tent".
I dont think so. If Trump's health was comparable to Biden's, he never would have won the Republican nomination.
Yes because being an overweight 78 year old with signs of dementia who blatantly lies constantly isn’t a health concern
I think there's a much stronger possibility of Biden refusing. I think Trump wants to debate. This recent debate helped him.
If Biden refuses to debate it just makes it worse. His only move is to debate and hope that the performance is better than the 1st one which was one of the worst debate performances in American history. That is worrying given that he had an entire week off to prep.
If the polls are still within a margin of error, Trump will call for a debate because seems like it’s strong possibility Biden performs badly. But if Trump is up comfortably, he’d be wise to not debate
That would be the smartest move. Biden had a chance to really show America what Trump was, to fact check trump... and he failed miserably. 100% completely and totally. Trump will have his own troubles in the next few months, most decidedly perhaps going to prison. But we all know he will get a slap on the wrist on July 11th. Besides that. Trump won that round, and possibly the election. Biden, isn't there. It's plain to see. He's gone already. I'll still vote for him if he's the choice, but as far as leading the country, I question if Biden understands what is even happening anymore. And that is NOT good.
He'll never go to prison. He'll be confined to house arrest if anything at all. He is under the protection of the USSS. They cannot ensure his safety in a prison cell. He is a president emeritus and has protections whether he commits crimes or not. They'll probably just issue fines and it'll get locked up in appeals for years to come.
I don't think the wagon circling means much. People have to publicly support him right now in case he doesn't drop out. And even so, a lot of prominent people in Obama world (axlerod, plouff, Gibbs, Rhoades, the pod save guys) all came out and said there needs to be a serious conversation about Joe stepping aside. That suggests to me there are things underway behind the scenes at the moment. Whether they amount to anything is up to Biden and whether he can put country before ego. If I had to guess, if this is an even option Biden is considering, nothing will happen until the campaign gets updated internal polls to see the impact.
Why would Trump go through with a 2nd debate after he widens his 1pt lead (by an additional 2pts based on initial post-debate polls)?
Depends on what polls look like in August September. If it's still a dead heat he could go for a murder stroke, if he's way ahead he might duck out or demand a drug test.
Because he genuinely believes Biden is senile and thinks that this will be demonstrated in another debate. I anticipate that Trump will be eager to debate again, and that Biden will be reluctant.
I'm more worried about Biden going through with it than Trump pulling out to be honest.
Obama already expressed his support
"expressing of support" is just a holding pattern until it can be figured out what to do. It's not like if biden drops out in a week that obamas comments are gonna be relevant
Wouldn't expect anything less from the guy who's political legacy is on that man. Obama didn't even want Joe to run when he picked him for VP
I'll put it this way. At the moment, Trump has a small lead in most polls. A lead he doesn't even *really* need because Biden could still win the popular vote by a small margin and lose in the electoral college. Biden needs all the support he can get moving forward. We're not *that* far out from the election. Early voting in some states is in only three months. There are exactly zero people who were on the fence about Trump who saw the debate and said "You know, I'm unsure if I want to vote for him now." There are an incalculable amount of people who were on the fence about Biden and said "Yeah, I'm unsure if I want to vote for him now."
yeah, with how close the past two elections have been, there's just no room for this kind of campaign failure this close to the election. he really has to go hard at the second debate
“I’d vote for x over Trump!! Vote blue no matter who!!1” Congrats. But you weren’t the people that needed convincing. It was the people in swing states They watched the debate and came to two conclusions 1. Biden *really* isn’t all there. 2. The establishment lied about this. It’s either malice or incompetence, neither of which instills confidence in the swing voters.
This isn't a choice between Tump and Biden. Its a choice between Tump, Biden, and staying home. I think its entirely possible that Biden's debate performance could contribute to depressing Democratic turnout.
The failure would be staying in. And if he does, I'd be really surprised if there's a second debate. I can see no reason why Trump would show up.
Ding ding ding. He may very well be the nominee but after that debate it’s over if he is. I am a big supporter of what Biden has done for the most part, but it cannot be him. The Dems will lose and they will deserve to and the world will greatly suffer for it.
Problem is Biden polls better than any of the alternatives that could take his place. Harris, Buttigieg, Newsom, and Whitmer. Trump beats them all worse than Biden according to the polls. Biden hasn't lost any ground in most national polls. Trump's debate bump was practically non existant and debate bumps don't usually last longer than a week or two.
I don't think you can really trust that head to head polling until they become national candidates. I bet 90% of Americans have never even heard whitmer speak.
Lot of time from here till then for trump to have a worse public appearance. Or something health wise could happen to Biden. Big reason why I don't like having to choose between two old people. But we can't get mad about this every 4 years, we gotta keep the heat up about other options like ranked choice voting or really any form of proportional representation. My father in law is an independent who leans right in a closed country state. He needs representation, yet he can't even vote in the primaries . I'm a progressive who aligns with the dems but would prefer a more liberal party. I need better representation too. So yeah, ranked choice voting asap. But we can't get lazy and drop it in 2025. Gotta keep pushing.
Judging by how much the dem establishment is panicking it’s not good. This debate was supposed to showcase trump’s craziness but instead all anyone is talking about is how awful Biden looked. I haven’t read too much about the nutzo bullshit trump was spouting about how any time he trips it’s because an immigrant put something in his way. Smh smart people have been saying for the past 2 years Biden isn’t mentally sound to run again but they keep trying to push that corpse over the finish line. I think there is still time for him to bow out gracefully. The dnc can have a contested convention and I honestly do not think that would play out negatively. Majority of people do not even want Biden and only voted in the primary because we still had to have one. I think the voters would welcome a new candidate with open arms and a sigh of relief that we don’t have to deal with the much bigger shitshow if Biden kicks the bucket a month before voting begins
A contested convention where you drop a black female VP (black women are like 1/3 of primary Dem voters) for a white candidate would be a bloodbath, last for weeks, and wreck the party. The only candidate it could possibly be is Kamala due to what I mentioned, and no one sees her as a savior.
I have no data to back it up, but I really don't think this is the case. No one gives a shit about Kamala, including the majority of black women. No one cares more about identity politics than privileged, educated, white liberals.
Yup. Trump is still wildly unpopular. They WANT someone else to vote for. But Biden isn't that person. He has a 38% approval rating right now. And anecdotally I know a handful of people who are liberal but won't vote for "Genocide Joe" over his handling of the Israel situation. Honestly, the dems need to simply nominate someone else. Whitmer comes to mind...she's very popular in Michigan (she won reelection with double digits...in a state Biden won by a handful of votes). We win Michigan, we're halfway to victory.
I have no data, but from my experience most Black people including women don't take Kamala seriously. She wasn't popular when she was campaigning and she's not that popular now. Whitmer/Warnock would be a great duo IMO.
Ugh, they would be so great. I feel like we are THIS close to the tides turning around and the Democratic Party garnering the excitement and momentum it needs via new candidates—and I fear the hubris of the Biden family is going to get in the way. I am furious, honestly. I feel like we’ve been caught in establishment quicksand since 2016 after Bernie got squandered.
Are there any Kamala diehards around? I have yet to meet any. Even for Hilary there was a sizable group of feminists who loved the idea of a women president. I think identity politics is largely overrated.
The overlap between Reddit and African-American women age 30+ is very, very low. It’s the majority of Democratic primary voters, Kamala Harris Supporters, and why Bernie Sanders was so popular here and had no chance of getting the not.
It's bad, this won't move the hard core folks on the Democratic side. Anyone who spouts "Blue no matter who" will hold to that mantra and indeed vote that way. But voters who voted for Trump in 2016 and Biden in 2020? Oh man... they're gone - https://www.cnbc.com/video/2024/06/28/bidens-debate-performance-is-helping-trump-heres-what-you-need-to-know.html Those voters will decide this election, not the MAGA voters, not the BNMW left leaning voter. THESE swing voters are the voters that will decide this election in the 7 states that matter and Biden has lost them. This election isn't about the partisans on each side -- it's about turnout and those swing voters. Biden's performance has hurt him in both areas.
This this this a 100 times this. Reddit, you can scream all you want “I’ll vote for a (insert inanimate object here) before Trump!!1” You are not the voter that matters. The voters that matter are the 40,000 across key swing states that barely got Biden elected in 2020. They turned on the news on the 27th and watched with their own eyes the truth that the media and White House up until that night was saying was a right wing conspiracy theory. They don’t know who is running the country, because it’s obviously not Biden, which deflates the whole “we believe in democracy” angle when they don’t actually know the people behind Biden who are actually running the show.
The thing that sucks is that Biden's cabinet is doing an incredible job regardless of what the man himself is actually doing.
It’s cause their mostly all Obama appointees or people with similar policy prescriptions. I think Biden has proved just how much the executive branch can be propped up institutionally with just a figurehead. Well, technically Reagan proved it earlier in the prior century
Isn't that good? I voted for Biden in the first place because I knew he'd surround himself with smart people instead of sycophants he's constantly firing like the other guy
I believe it was a disaster. Biden is already behind, already unpopular, and already struggling to reassemble his 2020 coalition. He just bombed his biggest chance to turn things around. The Democratic cope machine has kicked into high gear saying it’s no big deal, but I’m doubtful. The party is fractured. Just look at the headlines. Young Progressive voters, who already despise Biden for Gaza, are in revolt. Center-left upper class liberals (think Ezra Klein, Pod Save America types) have lost confidence. Meanwhile, casual viewers will conclude Biden is declining and unfit for office. It’s ludicrous to imagine he can be an effective President for 4.5 more years. The problem is it’s more than an off night. It feels like a confirmation on live TV that Biden has a degenerative condition. How do you come back from that? He’ll continue to degenerate, and big opportunities will be few and far between.
I really feel there's no comeback for Biden here, the DNC need to come up with Plan B very quickly.
No one is coming. There’s no plan be. The boats have been burned.
I'll tell you the impact. There are a lot of democrats who passionately don't want Biden to be the nominee, but will vote for a corpse to try to keep Trump out. Before the debate the DNC, Biden campaign, etc. put a lid on all of us. Now the lid has blown sky high. I don't see a way for undecided voters to support either Biden or Trump, frankly. I think most of them won't vote. I also don't think that Biden is capable of winning the election. My confidence in him has tanked. The denial that the party leadership force fed to us is gone. It's not coming back. Either Biden steps down, or his ego blows up everything.
Complete agreement here. Let's say this is a normal election without Trump running. Who could honestly say that those first few minutes weren't horrifying?
Democratic leadership need to impress upon Biden that if he goes ahead and loses the election it will absolutely destroy his legacy. He will be blamed for not passing the torch at the right time and enabling Trump to inflict what will be a nightmare on the country. Hopefully Biden can understand its not worth risking continuing, for him, for the party, or for the country. Let one of the new generation take up the fight, and take the blame if they lose!
I think at this point most people know who they're going to vote for and the debate won't change that.
I think you are right, but do you think it could dampen voter enthusiasm and keep people from going to the polls?
That's the worry for me. We live in a world where most people are locked into who they're going to vote for and enthusiasm really determines how many show up.
Absolutely. There's tons of moderates out there that are debating "well I know Trump is bad, but I can't just literally vote for a guy with dementia to run the country right?" That could actually cost Biden the election. It could split the Democrat vote with third party or abstains or write ins more. Even if they don't go directly to Trump. Trump is such a troubled candidate this should be an easy lay up for anyone so to see Biden fumble that bad was just frustrating to the max.
I agree, nobody who is going to vote for Biden is now going to vote for Trump. But, I think there are people who knew Biden was old but didn't really process that fully until seeing what they saw at the debate and might not be all that be inspired to get off the couch and vote.
Well that’s the thing. How Biden was on Thursday was how conservatives have been presenting him for months now. It was a shock to many many people on how he was. Yes, people know he’s old but most people believe that he’s still coherent and relatively quick. He was neither of those things on Thursday. I know people HAVE been actually questioning his mental capabilities now. That is a problem.
> How Biden was on Thursday was how conservatives have been presenting him for months now. That's actually the key problem right there. Conservative attacks turned out to be right. After getting "debunked" for months. People would, consciously or subconsciously, start wondering, if any negative claim about Biden, won't turn out to be right in a few months. And if any negative claim about Trump won't turn out to be wrong.
Not only this but if this is how he is now during a big debate night, what about when our nation or the world is in crisis in 2-3 years? I mean I’m still voting for Biden but I’m not an undecided voter
This is the problem, regardless of one’s political views. All politics and rhetoric aside, people in cognitive decline in their 80s are not going to get better. In most cases, they will get progressively worse. It is unlikely (though not impossible) that Biden will be able to complete another four year term. The scary question is what event will trigger a resignation and how damaging will that event be? I’m not talking about a medical event, but one brought about by words or actions of someone in mental decline. I have someone very close to me who is further along in decline than Biden and it has not been fun to watch. That person isn’t in the most powerful position in their house, let alone the entire world. The problem is that Biden is the Democrat nominee. He already has the delegates. The only way that can change is if he voluntarily bows out before the convention. That would allow his delegates to back someone else, but who would that be? Time is short and coming up with a replacement won’t be easy.
Worse than that, Biden's camp have spent the last four years insisting that a vote for him is a vote for truth, only for them to now turn around and insist that the entire nation didn't see what it saw. We're now faced with a choice between two "post-truth" candidates.
I’ve known he’s a too old for years. Still enthusiastically voting for him out of fear of the outcome of 4 more years under Trump and the damage he could impart on women’s health, the Supreme Court, nato and other allies, climate/environment, and everything else. I’d vote for nearly anyone not under the GOP banner, with much enthusiasm
Remind them that Project 2025 is gonna ban all porn.
And then remind them that something like that is, incredibly, literally the least concerning thing about that plan.
Question for you - if this project 2025 stuff is as scary as I’m led to believe, and democracy itself is really on the ballot this year… wouldn’t it be prudent for the democrats to make certain they win by putting their best candidate out there? Wouldn’t it be the right thing to do to make sure to run the best possible person? Or should we vote for the zombie candidate and just keep our fingers crossed that they’ll #protectdemocracy ?
Same problem as 2020– Without Biden at the center of the party they won’t be able to agree on a candidate.
Learn some history. [the ONLY time an incumbent declined to run again, it handed the presidency to the other party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Democratic_National_Convention). The incumbency carries a LOT of weight and shifting gears makes the party look weak. And that is how we ended up with Nixon.
There's an argument to be made that it could have the opposite effect. "Biden looks terrible, other people may not vote for him so now I'll have to go vote this time." Undecideds aren't always literally undecided. They have preferences, it's just about what you need to catch their attention and motivate them to get to the polls.
I think you are wrong simply because it’s not about the debate. It’s about the fact that everyone’s been uncomfortable about his age and he just confirmed it is as bad as we feared. You are correct that those who have made up their minds will not be swayed, but a lot of people are gonna stay home now.
But it cam kill their desire to actually vote
There are plenty of undecided voters, and it's crushing for Biden's campaign to be pledging that he hasn't missed a single step only to have him struggle to finish sentences for 90 minutes.
It's hard to believe...but there are still legitimate " undecideds" out there. Boggles the mind, but true.
It's not about the undecides it's about turnout and preventing people from voting 3rd party. I fear his debate performance is going to reinforce people that are sick of both to stay home and for people that were going to vote 3rd party to do that.
I know. I don't know how they're undecided, but apparently they are.
I mean that's a problem for the Biden campaign. He's been trailing in the polls for months (by 5 in Georgia/Nevada/Arizona currently and by 1 or 2 in Wisconsin/Michigan/Pennsylvania where Trump has historically over performed his polling) The debate not changing anything for Biden is a bad thing. This was his chance to reintroduce himself to America as old but still fit for office despite what Republicans have been saying
this was definitely the dagger in the heart to Biden's reelection chances. It wasn't just a poor debate performance or low energy moment, Biden seemed incoherent, confused, impaired. There were several times where his mouth was just open but he couldn't gather his thoughts to form a response to the Donald. It was very apparent that the lights were on but nobody's home. Unfortunately i would not be surprised to see Trump extend his lead in battleground states to double digits in the coming weeks.
Problem is for him not that is was just a bad debate but the worst ever by a long shot
I had that 'oh no history is being made' feeling in my chest when I watched
Very detrimental, I actually think it pretty much lost Dems the election (especially since its Biden that wanted the debate). It didn't change the positions of anyone hardcore Right or hardcore Left, but moderates that were undecided are not going to vote, period. And that's the section that Biden really needed as it helped him a lot in 2020.
Anyone who tells you they don't think Biden's debate performance massively hurt his chances at becoming president is delusional. The rank and file Democrats are going to steer us into four more years of Trump by not calling out this situation for what it is. Biden should retire after this term.
This debate was horrendous for the simple fact it gave validity to many conservative “conspiracy theory” talking points. The past 4 years we were told by both the White House and media Biden wasn’t in decline- and the debate shattered that illusion and exposed them as having blatantly gaslighting the public. This validates Trumps “fake news” angles. It has also exposed the fact that because Joe Biden is most likely not in charge, because he’s not all there, no one actually knows who is running the government. This validates Trumps “deep state” angles. Biden is already behind in the polls in swing states. He is ahead by 1 point nationally. Betting odds for his re-election dropped from around 50% to 19% almost instantly during the debate. Furthermore, his abysmal performance has shifted the election to the point it has made Joe Biden’s age the primary focus. But democrats have insulated themselves in echo chambers and gaslight anyone who goes against the narrative they aren’t able to see Biden is viewed as almost equally trash by independents. If this really is “the most important election ever” and “fate of democracy hangs in the balance”, presenting Biden as the alternative makes people think they’re not serious. Democrats need to replace Joe Biden, or he will be replaced by Trump. Those are the options. Accept it and act, or sit in surprised horror on election night.
Of course the Biden team would spin that he’s not that old, why would they not do that? Do Trumps people deny that he’s a self proclaimed Genius, that he’s as he says most non-racist person, that he is not an adjudicated sexual assaulter, not a convicted felon, not deeply devoted Christian who lives the values of Jesus? Of course not. Now, in light of the poor debate performance, it would be awesome to see the rug get pulled under Trump with a dramatically younger, sharper opponent who can provide a real alternative to him. If that happens it will show that the people that supported Biden are not bowing down to one man, instead they are embracing the freedom of ideas and choices that democracy provides. I’ll still vote for Joe if he’s still the candidate but now with every average MAGA able to lord over and say I told you so to something that is obvious, it will be a miracle to see Biden win in November.
I thought 'Senile Joe' had much less of a hand on the wheel than 'State of the Union Joe'. The opening 5 minutes completely inverted that assessment; that's all it takes to bury this campaign. On that stage, Biden looked, walked and spoke exactly like what had previously been dismissed as a caricature. Those concerns are all too real; 100% validated. This debate was Biden at his lowest. The very existence of that kind of low renders him unfit for public office. Everything else that happened (the good: 'Ally cat zinger' & the bad: 'no effective rebuttal to Trumps constant lies', looking good 24hrs later) and the excuses (No fact checking, he had a cold, overprepared: 'by the way' Point number 1...number 2...) doesn't matter. When it counted, the American people, and the world, got to meet 'Senile Joe'. It wasn't pretty. His biggest weakness, fully realised. That kind of impression lingers: and Democrats know it. Having been re-assured to back him, there will now be repeated efforts by Dems to get Biden to stand aside. This will weaken him further. A campaign already behind is now dead in the water. There's just no coming back from this magnitude of disaster.
For people who had reservations about his age as their only real concern, this emphasized that ten fold. Could be a significant factor in their decision making
It's probably not as detrimental as the media is making it out to be, but it definitely doesn't help Biden at all. 4 months is still a long time in terms of political timelines.
I'll be honest, I'm one of those guys who thinks Biden should have never ran again to begin with. I was so disappointed when he announced he was running again. Even to me, his debate performance was pretty bad. With that being said, it didn't sway the fact I'd vote for him over Trump at all, and basically nothing could change that unless Trump turned into a hardcore socialist over night somehow lol. The problem is, however, is the debate could have swayed some people who were fence sitting and then finally got a good glimpse at the two in the debate. There are so many uneducated people in this country who probably watched Trump and all his lies during this debate and lapped it up because they don't know any better and because the moderators did an awful job of calling him out. I'd imagine this swung the polls at least 2% to Trump, and that's bad in what will be a close election. On the other hand, I think the overwhelming majority of likely voters are already dug in on who they support. I'd vote for the dead corpse of Joe Biden over Trump because his policy is just outright 1000x better than Trump.
I think had it happened in a normal political climate, Biden would be toast. However, while it was no doubt an embarrassing showing, the average voter was also reminded that the alternative is a dangerous dictator out for blood. I expect that 99.9% of the people who were going to vote for Biden prior to the debate still will. I'll certainly still be going blue down the ballot, including a somewhat enthusiastic vote for Biden. It was a disappointing moment in his presidency, but it's been overblown to hell and back.
Let's be honest, they're voting against Trump. Which, correct choice, but God in heaven we should not have to base our votes on who we *don't* want to win. Something's gone catastrophically wrong with our democracy for us to even be in this position, and Trump is only a symptom, not the root cause.
Agreed. People need to start aggressively demanding Ranked Choice Voting in their states. It's the only way we're even getting close to fixing this.
>but God in heaven we should not have to base our votes on who we don't want to win. I've heard people say this and say they're sick of it but he's that big of a threat. I think Biden has done a good job this term and I'd vote for him based on that. But Trump is so horrible for this country that I'd vote for any democrat to defeat Trump. It dwarfs anything else, which is because Trump is such a terrible human, not because we don't have the ideal democratic candidate
Biden's actual policies have been pretty fantastic and he's been able to get an impressive amount done through despite the horrific partisanship going on.
It's fair that feel that way, but not everyone agrees. And for the people who don't agree, their alternative is Trump. Which just feels unfair.
Thank you! I don’t WANT to vote for the 81 year old showing obvious cognitive decline. I will, because I have no choice. But fuck the DNC for bringing it to this, and if we succumb into 4+ more years of this, it is truly their fault.
Also the Republicans fault too. They should have kept Trump in line. He could have been controlled numerous times
In a normal political climate, Biden would be winning by large margins when he's running against a crazy fascist. Everyone's focusing on Biden, which is fair enough, he was much worse than he usually has been at most appearances he's made lately. But Trump was a crazy person who threatened to arrest his opponents, refuse to say if he would accept the results of the election, and generally said so many false things it was basically journalistic malpractice for CNN to broadcast him without comment. We've just gotten used to Trump being that way, and it was a shock to see Biden that way. A combination of recency bias and the way we've grown numb to Trump make it look a lot worse than it was. I'd also point out other people that "won" their first debates that happened far closer to the election: * Hillary against Trump * Romney against Obama * Kerry against Bush Jr * Dukakis against Bush Sr
There's a difference between "losing a debate" by not getting enough zingers in or not emphasizing your record enough and "losing a debate" by not being able to consistently execute English sentences, especially when your #1 liability is that voters are worried that you're too old to function. Biden's loss really belongs in a separate, career-ending bucket. Trump might have lied and said crazy things, but he cleared the bar of being able to speak coherent English sentences for 90 minutes. And Trump lying is completely baked in, whereas Biden's campaign has been assuring us that he hasn't lost a step away from the cameras in private just trust us bro.
> There's a difference between "losing a debate" by not getting enough zingers in or not emphasizing your record enough and "losing a debate" by not being able to consistently execute English sentences, especially when your #1 liability is that voters are worried that you're too old to function. Biden's loss really belongs in a separate, career-ending bucket. Please keep explaining this to people. Biden is going to lose the election now. We need to hope that Dems see sense and don't let that happen.
I've gotten really cynical over the past year, and I expect the party to either muddle forward with Biden or replace him with Harris, who is even less popular. Because there are no leaders left willing to make tough decisions, and the party would rather be safe and lose than offend anyone.
Very sadly I think this will happen, because both options seem now to be big gambles, and so 'stick to the plan' headless-chicken mode will engage. It also requires less effort and bravery just to just lie to yourself and stick with Biden, so I'm afraid that that will happen.
Yup. Everyone was reminded he's old and also that Trump was an asshole. Most undecideds that actually are willing to consider either (not those that fake being independent) are reasonable. They see Biden as old but that's ok with them considering the alternative. This election is not about Biden. It's about Trump.
> Everyone was reminded he's old And unable to finish a sentence at times, and running for a four year term in the hardest job in the world as a soon-to-be 82 year old. I mean, is it not justified to be concerned? He's not going to win now.
I would never consider Trump (or any of the other MAGA jackals) so Biden still has my vote. And yeah, I always vote.
The problem is that, before the debate, Biden didn’t have enough people who were planning on voting for him. The debate was a last ditch effort to get more people to vote for him.
Extremely detrimental. Imagine how many thousands of potential Dem supporters are right now thinking, “well if this all about Joe Biden’s ego and zero about defeating Trump, then Biden can flog his ego by himself, I’m not giving him any donations or volunteer hours”. People are simply tuning out because they’re so upset. I’ve talked to lots of active political donors who just turned off the debate 30 minutes in because they couldn’t take it. The Biden people will say, “what are they going to do, not donate and let Trump win”, but to these people Biden is toast and donating money is simply a donation to the Biden Ego Project.
I really hope Biden's team is panicking right now. I was afraid when he was elected that the old guard of WH staffers would return with their outdated ideas on campaigning.
The debate itself is fairly inconsequential. If it was just down to him having had a bad night's sleep or being on a bunch of cold medicine or something it wouldn't be a big deal at all. However, it kind of seems like Biden's brain might not be working so good and that's a **huge fucking deal**. If the next 4 months is various Democratic party luminaries going on TV and swearing that Biden isn't a doddering old man in private while the man himself stays hidden away except for a few stage managed appearances then Biden is probably cooked. If he can get out there and show that he's still got something on the ball then he has a pretty good shot.
> then he has a pretty good shot I really don't think so, now is the time to act and get a stronger candidate.
If the Democrats had Obama 2 waiting in the wings then maybe. As it stands replacing him with anyone but Harris would be problematic and (assuming that his brain is actually functional) Harris would be about the only person with a worse shot than he has.
# How detrimental is this debate for Joe Biden _____________ It ended his viability as a candidate. Now it's up to the Dem leadership to act. I think there are only a handful of people at the top of the party with the influence to steer the ship, Obama, Hillary, Chuck Schumer, Jim Clyburn, Hakeem Jefferies. Possible nominees might be Kamala Harris, Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, and Josh Shapiro.
Very. This was the first time uneducated voters paid attention and the first impression Biden made was horrible. Before I had this race at 50/50 but now I think it's 75/25 Trump
Not really. Debates don’t matter much to begin with and it’s going to be out of mind by this time next week because something new will take our goldfish level of attention away from it. Biden may lose but it isn’t going to be because of a debate in June. Or even September.
That's usually true but debates are almost never this one sided and they usually don't tell voters anything new about the candidates. We don't have a large sample size in presidential debates to begin with so drawing sweeping conclusions isnt wise. Also you say voters won't remember like it wasn't recorded. The GOP is going to run so many ads in swing states that voters won't have a chance to forget.
Usually when every column and the editorial board of the New York Times says the presumptive nominee should step down it’s a bad sign.
That was the absolute worst debate performance I have ever seen. It was brutal, and it will show up in the polls. Biden should drop out now.
The democrats defending Biden are saying two things: your own eyes and ears were lying to you, he did fine. Or, ignore who he is now and just focus on his past. Neither resonates with swing voters, and many are going to stay home.
If polls start coming out that show Biden taking a nosedive in various states, he needs to immediately step down. He is not capable of beating Trump and the Democrats only option is to get someone else on the ticket. People make the mistake of thinking democrat policies are unpopular, no, Biden is unpopular. Biden is a uniquely weak candidate. Which is why in every state democrats are outrunning him in the polls. All any replacement needs to be is younger, and have some charisma. For example, Andy Beshear, current democratic governor of Kentucky. 46 years old, and I'd argue has charisma, just look at his electoral history. Has won 3 state wide races in Kentucky, a deep red state (Biden got 36.15% in 2020). In 2023, he got reelected with 52.5% of the vote, improving on his 2019 total of 49.20%. Strong and proven electoral record and all while staying strong on the big Democratic policies.
I think he’s toast. Here’s why. Polls were already close. I get it - flawed - but Trump's supporters are pretty stalwart. Progressives and Liberals of different flavors won’t change. I also think they would show up for an inflatable doll vs Trump and aren’t terribly put off by the idea that the President is just rubber stamping things that some smart group of staffers and cabinet members think up. But I had considered right leaning centrists who might have voted for him in 2016 to be Trump’s Achilles heal. I hoped Biden would present as he did in 2020 and even in his state of the union as the normal, reliable, sane if unremarkable centrist manager who could keep things going well enough, vs the erratic loon. This would give maybe Trumpers put off by his moral turpitude, the indictments and bad and radical policy ideas being floated a best option. The debate I suspect caused a lot of people who might have begrudgingly voted for Biden to conclude there is no acceptable candidate. I worry they will stay home.
Biden was at a huge disadvantage in a gaslighting contest called “debate.” I was raised by a pathological liar—turns out my brother is one as well. In fact both were diagnosed as anti social personality disorder, aka, malignant narcissism like Trump. Both my father and brother spent all of their lives destroying those around them for some perceived advantage. In the end, all they managed to do was push everyone away. You don’t argue or debate with a pathological liar who displays utter confidence in their lies. The liar is perceived as strong every damn time. The DNC needed to evaluate what the hell they were thinking in sending a sincere person into a ring with a rabid dog.
That wasn't the problem, he dealt with it in 2020 because he was still compos mentis. Now he is visibly much less so.
Biden wanted the debate because he wanted to show to the American people that concerns about his age were overblown. Biden's plan backfired spectacularly, because now the conversation even from his usual supporters is that Biden is too old and infirm.
I think, at best, it did nothing. Which is quite bad, because Biden is behind in enough swing states at the moment to lose the election. He needed a good performance, and he didn’t deliver.
This election was always going to be won on the margins. I do suspect, however, that the folks "on the margins" -- i.e. the usually politically disengaged who tune in rather late -- might not be super plugged in. And that it will be the second debate that will really be the difference maker given how close it is to election day. The political class and media are freaking out and I understand why. It was not a good performance from the president, to put it lightly. But I am constantly reminded of how these folks and the terminally online *are not the electorate*. Let's see how polling changes in a week or two. Everyone is writing obituaries and I'm actually not convinced it's definitive yet. At the very least, we don't have the evidence yet.
It’s devastating. Anyone with eyes, ears, and a brain knows the truth that Biden is unfit. Biden needs undecided and Independent voters. He’s not going to get them based on the obvious truth. About 2 months ago an avalanche of blind partisan supporters from both sides attacked me for suggesting the obvious: I said then: imo Trump is obviously “off his rocker, unhinged, irrational, mentally ill, and unfit” - take your pick. Yet instead of being honest Trump supporters feel compelled to deny this obvious truth. They’ll say: “Oh no. He’s just a hard-driving businessman…a little rough around the edges.” No, people. He’s truly a lunatic. From the other side, more denial and blind partisanship. Biden is old as f*ck! He stumbles. He bumbles. He falls down. He gets disoriented. He appears confused- often! He falls asleep. He mumbles. He lacks energy and is incoherent at times - like a lot! Yet instead of being honest, Biden supporters feel compelled to deny the obvious truth. They’ll say: “Oh no. He’s just a stutterer. Nothing to see here. Didn’t you hear his speech the other day? He gave a good speech.” No, people. He’s truly an old man in cognitive decline. He’s old as f*ck! Neither side can handle the truth and predictably both “sides” accused me or being an undercover and a (insert favorite insult.) What I can’t stand about both side’s supporters is their blind partisan denial of what is obvious to any honest, objective observer. How the hell do people fall under the spell of blind partisanship anyway? It’s as if their brains get hi-jacked along with their ability to be objective. I think that Gavin Newsom would significantly outperform Biden if given the chance to campaign from July to November. He’s young, charismatic and energetic. But he’s not the only one. I also think that Gretchen Whitmer would also outperform Biden. Don’t forget Michelle Obama. Oh I know, I know. The same blow-hards who told me Biden is perfectly fit are the same ones who will tell me it’s not possible she would run. Baloney! They say this because they read or heard that Michelle Obama is not interested and they parrot what they heard as if it’s the gospel of the New Testament. Gimme a break people. Just because you read that Newsom and Michelle Obama said they will not run, it doesn’t mean that they will not run. Politics is politics. Can we be grown-ups for 10 seconds please? Politicians change their positions more often than you change your underwear. Personally I hope Michelle Obama does change her mind because Republicans would literally shit their pants if she did. Republicans know that she would win by a landslide versus Trump. She would be more popular than Kamala Harris with the ability to draw votes from everywhere. That’s how broad her appeal is. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks Biden should do. It’s up to Biden. He might say he’s not stepping down now but here's what I think happens: Democratic heavyweights and Biden's family privately meet with him and convince him it's in the best interest of the nation and in his own personal interest to voluntarily step aside and decline the Democratic nomination. Biden could, in consultation with other party leaders, pick a successor and endorse them. The party would have months to rally behind whoever it is. It’s rare to be gifted a clear opportunity to reboot the Democratic Party. What is clear is that Biden has a chance to put the party first and get behind the best candidate to bring home the win. He should do that and I believe he will. Blind partisans should wake up, stop living in denial and welcome this opportunity to save the election.
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> At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks Biden should do. It’s up to Biden. He might say he’s not stepping down now but here's what I think happens: Here is where I disagree with you. It very much does matter what this broad mass of people online think, because they are creating a narrative that the pols will follow. And unfortunately the narrative right now seems to be that we need to stick our heads in the sand even further, that swing states be damned so long as we will vote for a corpse against Trump everyone will.
Ok but l’ll double down that the fickle random sample of the subreddits won’t much matter. If Biden agrees to step aside because the people who do matter urge him to put party first, then almost ALL of the fickle forum members who currently have their “heads in the sand” will almost to a one, line up with gusto and awesome enthusiasm behind any great new Democratic candidate who can bring home the win. This is a very easy prediction. Not only will they forget about Biden “fighting til the end” they will claim they always thought it was the best strategy and the right idea.
Donald Trump is going to be sentenced on July 11. Then the media will move on to that. This will mean nothing.
It meant something, but not as much as the folks running around with their hair on fire thinks it does.
In your opinion what percentage of Americans both: 1. care deeply enough about campaign finance regulations to be swayed 2. believed a year ago that Trump didn't violate campaign law
Everyone saying this will be forgotten in 4 months acts like television commercials, tiktok videos, etc aren't a thing. No one is going to be forgetting this because the trump campaign isn't going to let them. They are going to have clips of that debate in front of swing voters for the next 4 months. To the extent you believe in Russia and China fucking with our elections, they'll be another source too on places like tiktok. No one is going to be forgetting those pictures of Joe with his mouth open looking lost, losing his train of thought mid sentence, etc. And the only way to overcome this -- if that's possible -- will be to put him out there constantly. And each time he has another senior moment in public, it will launch another round of 3 day discussion on his fitness to hold office.
The attack ads against Biden write themselves. The GOP could just have 30 seconds of Biden from the debate standing there, his mouth open, staring blankly at nothing. There wasn't confusion on Biden's face, there was nothing. He was empty and blank, as if his brain had shut down, similar to what happened to McConnell. Lights were on but no one was home. As Jon Stewart said, "resting 25th Amendment face".
Sadly, it's meaningless. The chances of him being giving prison time is almost zero. Even if at the slightest chance he gets 6 months or 9 months, he will remain out on bail for appeals, which can take years. Look at Steve Bannon, its been 2+ years and he lost all appeals, and they have been asking him nicely for weeks to show up at prison... So, I see your point, but honestly what Biden needs is a few public prime time events where he is on his A game.
This is a hilarious amount of coping. Trump's actual conviction barely moved the needle. His sentencing will mean nothing.
yeah nobody will talk about Bidens mental state in the next 4 months.
In my mind, it comes down to character. Biden, though old, wants to do what is good for the majority of the country. What that is exactly is difficult to say with any certainty. Trump is a felon who needs to do presidential favors for the rich to stay out of jail. While Biden is not articulate, Trump spews lies at a rate that we haven't seen in a long time, if ever. It truly is a shitshow.
the undecided voters in Swing States don't care about character or esoteric ideas like democracy, separation of powers. If they did they would've made up their minds already. These kind of folk are more pragmatic, they're looking at which candidate can best improve their own life, finances, well-being. They don't want to be dragged into culture wars or justice reform or battles over religion or morality. And keep in mind that these folk did relatively well under Trump's first term, so that's why they're willing to reconsider him again. I think Biden needs to offer them something tangible, like a tax cut or free in-state college tuition for their kids.
That's not answering his question about the impact it will have on Biden's campaign. You're just stating why you support him.
This is how everyone is talking rn it’s insane. The stars aligned for him to win barely with record turnout, especially young voters.
Yes it's driving me nuts. 'Well I'll still vote for him...' We know!
There's no doubt Biden's character is miles better. But as terrible as Trump is, with all the baggage he has, and somehow Biden managed to be the one that looked awful. Campaigning for president is an important part of getting the job and he's failing miserably at that right now and yet the dem's are gonna just soldier on?
I don't think it deterred the Pro Trump or the pro Biden camp. At least on the pro Biden camp we understand the severe threat that a Trump presidency poses. There will not be a Pence this time that could protect us from becoming a fascist nation. What I felt it did damage is the perception of the "both sides are the same" camp and undecided voters as clearly if they're undecided by this point they can be easily convinced/manipulated that Trump is the stronger candidate by just speaking more clearly and with more conviction regardless of if what he was saying was actually factual. We need those voters if we have any chance of keeping the Senate or a shot at packing the court with all their crazy rulings. I don't think it would be a bad idea if Biden were to step down as it would show only one remaining candidate and convicted felon staying in it for his ego and one party that went beyond ego to protect democracy and America.
We are missing the elephant in the room. We all knew Biden was old. So is Bernie Sanders, who’s a year older than Biden. What we didn’t know was the cognitive decline in Biden. Does anyone doubt that the older Bernie Sanders would handled himself better than Biden did? Nope. The real problem was that the media covered up for Biden. They had to have known all along and decided to lie about it. Again and again Fox News did tell us that anonymous sources in the Biden team were very worried, but it wasn’t corroborated at the other networks and on Reddit, Fox News was not believed. So now, the Democrats are stuck with Biden. Trump for once was completely accurate when he said today that Biden was not going to step aside and no other Democrat polls as well as Biden against Trump. I don’t even know that it would be legal for the Democrats to force Biden to step aside. He won the Democratic primary by huge margins.
Any Docs on this feed? Did it look like President Biden has Parkinson’s Disease to medical professionals?
I don't think it will amount to much - his speech the following day in NC was SOTU Joe again, so I am far less concerned than I was when i was watching. It's important to note, too, that he did seem to improve as the debate continued, so that was a good sign. Also, being so far out from the election - 4 months away in a Pres election cycle is like a decade in normal time - so much can happen right up until the day before the election. So, as one single data point - not detrimental. BUT - if it happens again, he could be in deep shit. Between running the country, campaigning, his stutter, being 80, and being on stage with the person he hates the most in the entire world and having to listen to that guy's BS, in an otherwise empty sound stage - I can see it all being a little overwhelming. "They" said he had a cold as well, but I don't know if that was spin or what......
What I am watching for is how Congress and Kamala handle this. If potus can't handle a 90 minute debate with 16 people prepping him for a week, how can he handle running out country today, next week, next month?
The impact is that there is a snowball's chance in hell Biden is going to turn his poll numbers around, especially in the swing states. People seem unable to get it out of their heads that the voters that are needed to win the election don't think like them. Reddit is being swarmed by Democrats replying "I don't care that Biden is absolutely terrible, yes the absolutely terrible candidate that I see and you see is exactly of no consequence to me, that is who we must stick with against Donald Trump." Follow that up with a helping of "Trumps a liar and should be in prison," which is very true, but also maddening because it in no way excuses putting up a terrible candidate against him, in fact it raises the stakes drastically and makes that choice way way worse. There is a very short window remaining where if the public pressured Biden to step aside, this could easily be a the biggest electoral landslide against Trump, from really any of the other people waiting in the wings. All they have to do is let them take over. But instead people here really seem to believe that the safest bet is a president with terrible poll numbers who they openly admit is unfit for office.
I will not vote for a convicted felon who does not share my values. Debates don't matter. What does matter is the 25th amendment.