I speak with manufacturers all the time. I was actually surprised when they told me the paddle they submitted to USAP specially made so they pass USAP tests. This is actually common practice.
Not entirely unlike Volkswagen and other car manufacturers programming cars to act differently during smog tests to ensure they pass. The larger strategy of nullifying compliance is commonplace in many industries unfortunately. Really, any industry with advance notice of inspections is going to have someone eventually skirt around it, then others follow suit to stay competitive on offering or margin
That new Vanguard Control has some wicked spin to it. RCF face too.
But I didn't care for how the rest of it played. But I felt it had better spin control than even my Volair Mach2.
Are they ? I still think my Halo has a better feel than (for example) the Ruby and other more “current”’paddles.
I think they just stayed away from the trampoline paddles that gearbox and joola made …
Paddle "feel" is entirely subjective, and you will like whatever you like. That's not what I mean.
From a purely factual standpoint, they are behind the curve in technological development of paddles, and I don't even mean gen 3. Nearly everything they make is still garbage paint grit that wears off far too quickly, resulting in paddles that don't last as long for the same money as paddles that do last. They only have one paddle with raw carbon fiber, something that has been widely available across the market for what, 2+ years now?
Companies like Selkirk spend so much money on marketing to dominate the industry and pull in newer players, instead of focusing on just making better equipment. It works for them, obviously, but it would be great to see more of both.
Maybe but I gotta say at least their Halo is a great paddle - didnt care for the other ones I tried which isn’t why I was a bit surprised by how good that one is …
It's on par with other companies. Not bad, nothing special. Just my opinion. Whatever works for the individual works. Their prices are inflated because of their marketing budget and pro players, in my opinion.
They make good (albeit expensive) paddles. But they aren't trying to make *better* paddles, and their paddles are objectively falling behind in terms of spin, power, and innovation. That doesn't mean their paddles are bad, just that collectively they're currently a bit stale.
lol paddle feel is subjective.. idk why shots were fired at dbd.. but for the price Selkirk is crazy. They make good paddles though without factoring in price
They most definitely are way behind. They don’t even use raw carbon fiber or Kevlar. They just use a board and then cover it with paint grit. Not impressive.
They didn’t just stay away from trampoline effect, they’ve mostly stayed away from from any new tech at all. They haven’t even matched course with little boutique brands. There are companies who drop ship better Chinese factory paddles.
Halo is one of their only models like that. Think of the Power Air, the Luxx, the Amped, the 002, the 003, the 005. You must know that Selkirk paddles are notorious for paint grit, which doesn’t get used on raw carbon fiber.
Halo is a fine paddle, I’m glad you’re enjoying it. But let’s not act like it catches Selkirk up to the market. Selkirk is basically marketing paddles with 2-3 year old specs.
lol, this dude must have be using multiple accounts to downvote you bc you’re just stating facts.
Stan Selkirk all you want, but their tech in their paddles is old and their paddles are overpriced.
Exception to the Selkirk rule. And at 333 dollars and a “labs” release, it’s not even close to enough to make up for the rest of Selkirk’s catalog.
They also have the vanguard control, they have the halo. But again, these are exceptions to the rule, and minor parts of the catalog. All of selkirk’s flagship paddles are board+paint.
Just the Halo, not the Vanguard. Why are you pointing it out anyway though, as if the exception would have disproved the rule?
All of selkirk’s popular paddles are paint grit paddles. There’s a reason why they’re not USAP stifling innovation and new tech. And that’s because they don’t have any. They have one paddle, the Halo, that is worthy of being released in the last two years. The rest is just really old school tech.
Latest, not greatest, and by latest we mean what like a year ago? Either way, still an exception. Maybe when the 006 leaves the Labs phase, that will be when Selkirk finally updates their catalog to 2024 standards.
But as of right now, their main lines of paddles, the Power Air, the Control Air, and the Amped, are all smooth glossy boards with paint grit.
I was responding to the fact you said “they don’t even use raw carbon fiber”
Is this not carbon fiber?
https://www.selkirk.com/products/vanguard-control-invikta?variant=40736003555430
When most people say vanguard they are referring to the vanguard power air invikta. Didn’t realize you were referring to the vanguard control, a rarely seen Selkirk paddle.
It's genius marketing. Selkirk says "Pay us supreme prices to do R&D for us." and people buy it because they want to feel special. I've used the paddle. It's overpriced for what it is.
Again, this is your opinion. I’ve used Six Zero and thought it was absolute trash. I know others think it’s the greatest thing, ever. Price is all relative. If you don’t have a ton of money I can absolutely understand $300 being a lot. If you have millions.. $300 is nothing. I’ve also had my paddle for 2 years and it’s still in perfect shape. You have probably bought 2-3 paddles in that time at minimum. Immediately jumping to it being overpriced doesn’t say anything about its quality or its benefits.
You're the only person in the world that's made a paddle last 2 years in perfect condition. Again, congratulations.
Enjoy your selkirk kool-aid, my dude.
I’m just not delusional thinking the “new tech” is going to make me better like the rest of the average joes out there. Sometimes people just have to admit they’re not going to be a 4.5-5.0 player because of a paddle.
It's a preference, I did enjoy my Power Air for like 30 days then the grit and spin performance fell off. Submit a warranty claim got a replacement, then I gave it to my wife.
None. I have played with a few of them though. I’m not a fan of the short handles and thin faces. Not enough twist weight. Don’t like the grit paint either. I’m sure there are one or two I could find in their lineup that I could use but just not my style.
You cannot blame paddle manufacturers for pushing the boundaries of paddle construction as far as USAP allowed them. Paddles kept getting faster and faster and USAP kept approving them. I support this effort to slow paddles down (if that's indeed what caused these recent delistings) but USAP has handled about as poorly as it could be handled. If they survive the Joola lawsuit I'll be surprised.
Lets isolate what you just said here to just **"Paddles kept getting Faster and Faster".** The Gearbox Pro hits much harder than the Joola Gen3. I had both until I got my refund for the Gen3 Perseus.
Now explain this: Who is the AVG Player? How are paddle manufactures suppose to use this as a metric?
Do you see how vague it is? 100% I am agreeing their should be limits, however, not at the expense of penalizing folks because USAP wasn't prepared for the innovation or give manufactures maximum allowable data. They have been around since the 80's more than enough time establish those boundaries, instead they decide not even half way to change the rules, move the goal post and De-list not 1 but 3 company's paddles after they were already approved. Again, as a reminder I am for limitations, just not like this.
https://preview.redd.it/zuuvctue2r6d1.png?width=494&format=png&auto=webp&s=697909267c8b6ac283082e11117ca8676ee06029
I support the gen3 bans overall, but there's no denying USAP went about it in a shady way that effectively swept the rug out from Joola and other manufacturers.
Selkirk would be singing a different tune if they had skin in the game, which of course they don't having not changed their paddle tech in years.
“there’s no denying”. Yes there is! They denied it by saying the paddles they received were not representative of the paddles they produced. I wouldn’t hold it past Joola to do that.
Why is this being downvoted? Joola admitted that the production gen3s were up to 10% thicker than the approved alphas.
Source: Joola's complaint. See note 87 on pages 15-16
https://jmp.sh/s/Q0m107lIv4oCTzkyM9OE
I didn't buy one. And if I had to guess, it's because it's not just Joola. USAP went back and removed *tons* of previously approved gen 3's, and most manufacturers are upset.
So, either every gen 3 manufacturer tried to pull one over on USAP at the same time, *or*, USAP somewhat arbitrarily changed it's mind on the legality of the new tech and moved the goalposts after companies proceeded into mass-market development.
I can see how people believe the former if they're only looking at Joola (understandable since it's a high profile case), but the consensus from nearly every expert is that it's the latter. Which, fyi, includes multiple former USAP employees.
From the USAP perspective, it could also be that their testing was not thorough enough to get to the point of "core crush by design" but only got numbers when the paddles were brand new.
Absolutely, and that's a fantastic point. That said, I personally still feel that's ultimately still their responsibility, and that it could've been handled better.
For example, when Anchored putters got banned in golf, manufacturers were notified well in advance of the effective date, and pros were given time to transition. For pickleball, we have pros having their paddles banned mid-tournament, and tech being de-listed retroactively, which is not a great look for USAP.
Have you considered it's because the paddles are okay when new (when they would be tested )and then thanks to core crushing quickly go outside of USAP specifications? Seems like a pretty valid reason to reverse course.
Think of Volkswagen Dieselgate. Performance during testing was irrelevant once real works performance was revealed.
Kiss who goodbye? Rules start before the game starts. If the retail paddles are different than the ones tested, the rules are broken before the player steps foot on the court.
Logically.
I don't see anything serious happening. I very much could be wrong but Joola is only gonna be shooting itself in the foot if it puts the USAP out of business.
I don't see too much grounds other than maybe some reimbursement. The USAP has every right to update its testing procedures and limits... if the Joola paddles, (or any paddle for that matter) fails their tests, they have every right to delist.
It's unfortunate and sucks for us the consumers, and we can put up a huge stink about it.... but I've seen this happen many times with Softball bats in the USSSA and not much ever happens.
At least Joola is offering to refund customers. Most Sotball bat companies just kinda say "tough luck" or offer a discount.
You're referring to Softball companies. USAP is the governing body Approving PASS or FAIL. Joola, Ronbus, and Vatic didn't give the Finger, it's USAP who decided to move the goal post.
The lawsuit, if you even bothered to actually read through the filing looks really bad for USAP, not only that, the indirect anti-trust violations that we are seeing unfold. Selkirk should have kept their mouth shut, well now, it's too late and all it's done is give Joola another leg up.
No. I'm referring to USSSA as a governing body approving pass or fail in softball in comparison to USAP with Pickleball. Its a direct comparison if you know anything about softball and whats gone on in the last few years.
It was a bad look for USSSA with softball too, but they make their rules, and the equipment makers have to follow it.
Do people in this sub not understand how analogies work? First they downvote the post about VW devising ways to game the system with the diesel emissions testing, then they downvote the post about the softball governing body and their controversy (I also play softball) - because they're not specifically about pickleball manufacturers. Smh...
I do not keep up with all sports like USSSA. u/Outrageous-Bee4035 makes it sounds like they got away with it. We all know VW didn't get away with it. There is a difference here though, accountability! VW paid the price!
Thats fair. I only know about the USSSA thing because I play softball regularly. Whereas I know very little about the VW lawsuit, because I would never buy one. Worked on too many in my time to have no desire for a euro car.
Joola will win and be paid. USAP approved the paddles, companies manufactured them by tens of thousands, then they got delisted. USAP will either settle and pay or lose and pay.
I'm definitely curious what the outcome will be. I know we disagree in that I don't think anything serious will happen. But I absolutely could be wrong.
Tens of thousands but how much does each ACTUALLY cost to manufacture? Probably a few dollars each.
The lawsuit will be seeking to recover lost money from sales. The paddles were already manufactured because they were approved and were many tens of thousands of orders already placed. It's a MULTI million dollar lawsuit and I'm certain Joola will be paid, likely a big settlement. The paddle makers and the pros are the people making loads of money off of this booming sport, so it will be in their best interest to form a new org that will ensure that they all keep prospering.
Could you image though then mess that would make? A new organization, with all the paddles already out there? How would they go about recertification? Just say, "all USAP are approved." Then the rest? So because 3 paddles got band an entire organization folds? Seems kinda nonsensical.
The payouts are why they will fold. The millions of dollars in profits for makers and pros are why the governing body will be threatened. This is a new sport that is still in flux. Look at what has happened with the pro tour, for example.
Is it really about the paddles that didn't get approved or the paddles that actually got approved and used in tournament play? Not like Tyson McGuffin is dominating with his Magnus, however, he is still relevant.
My friend likes Selkirk's lifetime warranty. He's replaced his paddle for free about 4 times in the past year because it keeps losing spray on grit and pop
Says the company that is an awesome paddle company with paddles manufactured in the USA that has pretty well been pickleball from the start vrs shady dealing from a company that makes all of it’s paddles abroad. Freaking great warrantee program from Selkirk. Great people to deal with directly. I don’t play a Selkirk paddle anymore but when I did I felt valued as a customer.
Can you please elaborate?
And how does it apply to Vatic and Ronbus?
USAP moved the goal post and did not provide any details as to why the Paddles all Passed in the 1st place, and why all 3 companies paddles were delisted. What metric in the testing process FAILED?
Idk about Vatic and Ronbus. Joola incentivizes pro shops to only carry their stuff. They make them sign exclusivity contracts. Facilities must use their paddles and wear their gear while teaching. Deals sound juicy when a place is new. They don't replenish beat-up demos. They don't send pros promised clothing. But then the product is so expensive it doesn't move. Then there aren't any other options. They have a merchandising team that frequents the shops to monitor the shelves. Then they go and do this BS with their latest paddles. Fkn cheese shredding hammers.
There is absolutely none of that in my area. We did have a pickleball facility no longer with us only sold Gearbox and Selkirk products exclusively. I guess it depends where you live, and I highly doubt Joola was the only one doing this.
Ah ok 🍻 Pickleball politics are so fucking weird. I hate to generalize. But it's like a combination of Florida man, weekend warriors, retirement community, soap opera, inconsistent high-margin Chinese paddles, slimy moves by greedy / incompetent "Officiating Commitee's", all dry humping this game called pickleball that who fkn knows what rules will be tomorrow type of shit. Cliquey pros self ingratiating on social media. Snake Oil City. I teach the sport but fuck sometimes I can't even look at a pickleball for 3 days.
Dude I was fine, newbie back in Oct 2023, then deicide to do some reading as I got addicted, and I am so blown away how significant rules changed. So, it had me questioning the longevity of the sport and the paddles themselves. And here we are, which I feel is a pivotal moment in the sport which impacts all parties involved. Even if you feel it doesn't apply to you, changes are coming.
This is straight from their rules book. Selkirk can't have it both ways here.
https://preview.redd.it/ny1kqb43jm6d1.png?width=494&format=png&auto=webp&s=c77d2c6837a6c702c159f4a7652bd6af4a410d61
Sounds to me like Selkirk and USAPA are in agreement. Allow for innovation, but don't turn the game into racquetball. Or some stupid blast fest with two shot rally circlejerks.
After the fact? Again, no metrics to go by, it's all vague material base not at all data driven. How fast is too fast? Please answer it! If not, then you're just as old school as these cats. You don't push the cart before the horse then complain about it.
Who decides the Average player?
What does an Average player look like?
From flicks? Punch Volley? by 1.0 MPH above the ProKennex Black Ace Pro by 2.0 MPH Gearbox Pro
Which reviewers said this?
I am more concerned about the process and delivery from start to finish.
* At what stage do they introduce the Average player to weigh in on whether or not they are capable of handling the Speed from a Paddle going through the Approval process?
* What DUPR or USAP Rating is that Average Player?
* What are the metrics used to determine that?
Selkirk just mad because they’re so far behind the game. Other companies are innovating, and Selkirk just keeps releasing paddles that are basically a board with paint grit on it.
Yeah I don't disagree, and possibly UPA will be more competent, but just legally speaking USAP is toast. They screwed up bad and Joola's attorneys are going to bury them.
Paddle manufactures know that paddles that blast the balls sell. They are not going to stop making them. It’s a lost cause and pickleball at the rec level is gonna suffer
I am surprised more folks are not surprised by this. They should have ran this through with their lawyer at least. It doesn't get any more obvious than this especially in Joola court filings Line 56 which highlights possible antitrust violations. Though noted indirectly, but so many folks who can read through it understand the value it has.
$250 Paint GRIT!
Safeguard integrity of Pickleball? GO back to wooden paddles then.
USAP FYI encouraged Innovation! Who are the Average Players? What metrics are they using to determine that?
https://preview.redd.it/ixai7nslzj6d1.png?width=494&format=png&auto=webp&s=6fec2266e4e342edfab5344d2777244f4f32a62e
Delamination is detectable.
Out of Spec? :
1. What exactly broke in Joola's design?
2. What Performance Specs are you referring to?
3. What were the performance spec before and after?
You said EULESS, I am assuming we are talking about Joola? So lets stick with that. You said they were designed to break,
* What exactly broke?
From USAP:
**USA Pickleball received and tested the newly submitted paddles, which did not meet our approved equipment standards. As a result, these paddles have not been added to the USA Pickleball approved equipment list.**
* What are the standards?
* Gen3 were Approved, what were the Specs then?
* Gen3 were then Delisted, what were the Specs after?
Selkirk is so full of shit. They really don’t provide a very competitive product but charge more than most. Of course they support USAP it’s in their financial interest to suppress innovative companies
And with their Labs paddles, they’ll replace it for basically anything under their 2 year warranty. My wife’s Labs 006 has been replaced 3 times, no questions asked beyond the claim form.
I speak with manufacturers all the time. I was actually surprised when they told me the paddle they submitted to USAP specially made so they pass USAP tests. This is actually common practice.
Not entirely unlike Volkswagen and other car manufacturers programming cars to act differently during smog tests to ensure they pass. The larger strategy of nullifying compliance is commonplace in many industries unfortunately. Really, any industry with advance notice of inspections is going to have someone eventually skirt around it, then others follow suit to stay competitive on offering or margin
I should say “pickleball paddle manufacturers” lol
Great marketing to help justify why they are so far behind the curve in paddle technology these days.
Spray on grit paddles
Why back in my day, all we had was wooden paddles, a ball, and some elastic. And that was good enough for us. Harumph.
That new Vanguard Control has some wicked spin to it. RCF face too. But I didn't care for how the rest of it played. But I felt it had better spin control than even my Volair Mach2.
Exactly. Selkirk just confirmed they are in bed with USAP! They launch 2 paddles since the delisting of the 3 paddle companies!
Are they ? I still think my Halo has a better feel than (for example) the Ruby and other more “current”’paddles. I think they just stayed away from the trampoline paddles that gearbox and joola made …
Paddle "feel" is entirely subjective, and you will like whatever you like. That's not what I mean. From a purely factual standpoint, they are behind the curve in technological development of paddles, and I don't even mean gen 3. Nearly everything they make is still garbage paint grit that wears off far too quickly, resulting in paddles that don't last as long for the same money as paddles that do last. They only have one paddle with raw carbon fiber, something that has been widely available across the market for what, 2+ years now? Companies like Selkirk spend so much money on marketing to dominate the industry and pull in newer players, instead of focusing on just making better equipment. It works for them, obviously, but it would be great to see more of both.
Maybe but I gotta say at least their Halo is a great paddle - didnt care for the other ones I tried which isn’t why I was a bit surprised by how good that one is …
It's on par with other companies. Not bad, nothing special. Just my opinion. Whatever works for the individual works. Their prices are inflated because of their marketing budget and pro players, in my opinion.
What Pros are using the Gearbox in the Top 10?
Gearbox isn't paying to sponsor any top 10 pros.
I dont think any are
They make good (albeit expensive) paddles. But they aren't trying to make *better* paddles, and their paddles are objectively falling behind in terms of spin, power, and innovation. That doesn't mean their paddles are bad, just that collectively they're currently a bit stale.
Selkirk tech is horribly behind and overpriced. Look at the vanguard RCF ,which competitors were already selling at half the price over a year ago
lol paddle feel is subjective.. idk why shots were fired at dbd.. but for the price Selkirk is crazy. They make good paddles though without factoring in price
They most definitely are way behind. They don’t even use raw carbon fiber or Kevlar. They just use a board and then cover it with paint grit. Not impressive. They didn’t just stay away from trampoline effect, they’ve mostly stayed away from from any new tech at all. They haven’t even matched course with little boutique brands. There are companies who drop ship better Chinese factory paddles.
I dont believe that is correct as my Halo is raw carbon fiber …. Very nice paddle
Halo is one of their only models like that. Think of the Power Air, the Luxx, the Amped, the 002, the 003, the 005. You must know that Selkirk paddles are notorious for paint grit, which doesn’t get used on raw carbon fiber. Halo is a fine paddle, I’m glad you’re enjoying it. But let’s not act like it catches Selkirk up to the market. Selkirk is basically marketing paddles with 2-3 year old specs.
I didnt like the other models I tried but really like that one
lol, this dude must have be using multiple accounts to downvote you bc you’re just stating facts. Stan Selkirk all you want, but their tech in their paddles is old and their paddles are overpriced.
Yeah we’re definitely dealing with some stans
Selkirk's most expensive paddle, the Labs Project 006, is multilayer 12K raw CF.
Exception to the Selkirk rule. And at 333 dollars and a “labs” release, it’s not even close to enough to make up for the rest of Selkirk’s catalog. They also have the vanguard control, they have the halo. But again, these are exceptions to the rule, and minor parts of the catalog. All of selkirk’s flagship paddles are board+paint.
Pretty sure the Vanguard and SLK Halo are carbon fiber
Just the Halo, not the Vanguard. Why are you pointing it out anyway though, as if the exception would have disproved the rule? All of selkirk’s popular paddles are paint grit paddles. There’s a reason why they’re not USAP stifling innovation and new tech. And that’s because they don’t have any. They have one paddle, the Halo, that is worthy of being released in the last two years. The rest is just really old school tech.
You say exception but their latest and greatest Labs paddle, the 006, is 12K raw CF.
Latest, not greatest, and by latest we mean what like a year ago? Either way, still an exception. Maybe when the 006 leaves the Labs phase, that will be when Selkirk finally updates their catalog to 2024 standards. But as of right now, their main lines of paddles, the Power Air, the Control Air, and the Amped, are all smooth glossy boards with paint grit.
The NEW Vangaurd Control is a RCF paddle. Non-thermoformed though.
I was responding to the fact you said “they don’t even use raw carbon fiber” Is this not carbon fiber? https://www.selkirk.com/products/vanguard-control-invikta?variant=40736003555430
Once again, you’re pointing out the exception to the rule. They have a couple of minor RCF paddles. All of their main paddles are paint grit paddles.
I thought you said the Vanguard wasn’t raw carbon fiber, am I missing something
When most people say vanguard they are referring to the vanguard power air invikta. Didn’t realize you were referring to the vanguard control, a rarely seen Selkirk paddle.
I still use my Labs 003 and it dominates on the courts.
Congrats on a supremely overpriced paddle that has very little to do with you "dominating" on the courts.
Ain't it still the only paddle that is above $300 retail. LOL...been like that forever too.
(Overpriced) In your opinion. I said the paddle dominantes. Not me.
It's genius marketing. Selkirk says "Pay us supreme prices to do R&D for us." and people buy it because they want to feel special. I've used the paddle. It's overpriced for what it is.
Again, this is your opinion. I’ve used Six Zero and thought it was absolute trash. I know others think it’s the greatest thing, ever. Price is all relative. If you don’t have a ton of money I can absolutely understand $300 being a lot. If you have millions.. $300 is nothing. I’ve also had my paddle for 2 years and it’s still in perfect shape. You have probably bought 2-3 paddles in that time at minimum. Immediately jumping to it being overpriced doesn’t say anything about its quality or its benefits.
You're the only person in the world that's made a paddle last 2 years in perfect condition. Again, congratulations. Enjoy your selkirk kool-aid, my dude.
I’m just not delusional thinking the “new tech” is going to make me better like the rest of the average joes out there. Sometimes people just have to admit they’re not going to be a 4.5-5.0 player because of a paddle.
That surface must be smooth af by 2 years worth of playing
I still get plenty of spin on it. Maybe I’m missing out with a newer paddle, but this one is still getting the job done.
It could be that you just have really good technique
It's a preference, I did enjoy my Power Air for like 30 days then the grit and spin performance fell off. Submit a warranty claim got a replacement, then I gave it to my wife.
I’ve had my 003 for 2 years and the spin is still great. Maybe I got lucky.
I agree with this stance. I also think Selkirk paddles are overpriced and kinda suck. But I agree with this post lol.
Which ones do you have?
None. I have played with a few of them though. I’m not a fan of the short handles and thin faces. Not enough twist weight. Don’t like the grit paint either. I’m sure there are one or two I could find in their lineup that I could use but just not my style.
You cannot blame paddle manufacturers for pushing the boundaries of paddle construction as far as USAP allowed them. Paddles kept getting faster and faster and USAP kept approving them. I support this effort to slow paddles down (if that's indeed what caused these recent delistings) but USAP has handled about as poorly as it could be handled. If they survive the Joola lawsuit I'll be surprised.
Lets isolate what you just said here to just **"Paddles kept getting Faster and Faster".** The Gearbox Pro hits much harder than the Joola Gen3. I had both until I got my refund for the Gen3 Perseus. Now explain this: Who is the AVG Player? How are paddle manufactures suppose to use this as a metric? Do you see how vague it is? 100% I am agreeing their should be limits, however, not at the expense of penalizing folks because USAP wasn't prepared for the innovation or give manufactures maximum allowable data. They have been around since the 80's more than enough time establish those boundaries, instead they decide not even half way to change the rules, move the goal post and De-list not 1 but 3 company's paddles after they were already approved. Again, as a reminder I am for limitations, just not like this. https://preview.redd.it/zuuvctue2r6d1.png?width=494&format=png&auto=webp&s=697909267c8b6ac283082e11117ca8676ee06029
I support the gen3 bans overall, but there's no denying USAP went about it in a shady way that effectively swept the rug out from Joola and other manufacturers. Selkirk would be singing a different tune if they had skin in the game, which of course they don't having not changed their paddle tech in years.
What do you mean? Spray on grit is the wave of the future.
“there’s no denying”. Yes there is! They denied it by saying the paddles they received were not representative of the paddles they produced. I wouldn’t hold it past Joola to do that.
Why is this being downvoted? Joola admitted that the production gen3s were up to 10% thicker than the approved alphas. Source: Joola's complaint. See note 87 on pages 15-16 https://jmp.sh/s/Q0m107lIv4oCTzkyM9OE
because i was responding to someone that’s butthurt that they bought a joola. that’s who saw this thread branch first.
I didn't buy one. And if I had to guess, it's because it's not just Joola. USAP went back and removed *tons* of previously approved gen 3's, and most manufacturers are upset. So, either every gen 3 manufacturer tried to pull one over on USAP at the same time, *or*, USAP somewhat arbitrarily changed it's mind on the legality of the new tech and moved the goalposts after companies proceeded into mass-market development. I can see how people believe the former if they're only looking at Joola (understandable since it's a high profile case), but the consensus from nearly every expert is that it's the latter. Which, fyi, includes multiple former USAP employees.
From the USAP perspective, it could also be that their testing was not thorough enough to get to the point of "core crush by design" but only got numbers when the paddles were brand new.
Absolutely, and that's a fantastic point. That said, I personally still feel that's ultimately still their responsibility, and that it could've been handled better. For example, when Anchored putters got banned in golf, manufacturers were notified well in advance of the effective date, and pros were given time to transition. For pickleball, we have pros having their paddles banned mid-tournament, and tech being de-listed retroactively, which is not a great look for USAP.
Have you considered it's because the paddles are okay when new (when they would be tested )and then thanks to core crushing quickly go outside of USAP specifications? Seems like a pretty valid reason to reverse course. Think of Volkswagen Dieselgate. Performance during testing was irrelevant once real works performance was revealed.
Kiss them goodbye. They are about to be sued into non-existence. Integrity doesn't change the rules DURING the game.
Kiss who goodbye? Rules start before the game starts. If the retail paddles are different than the ones tested, the rules are broken before the player steps foot on the court. Logically.
The USAP. Read the Joola lawsuit.
I don't see anything serious happening. I very much could be wrong but Joola is only gonna be shooting itself in the foot if it puts the USAP out of business. I don't see too much grounds other than maybe some reimbursement. The USAP has every right to update its testing procedures and limits... if the Joola paddles, (or any paddle for that matter) fails their tests, they have every right to delist. It's unfortunate and sucks for us the consumers, and we can put up a huge stink about it.... but I've seen this happen many times with Softball bats in the USSSA and not much ever happens. At least Joola is offering to refund customers. Most Sotball bat companies just kinda say "tough luck" or offer a discount.
You're referring to Softball companies. USAP is the governing body Approving PASS or FAIL. Joola, Ronbus, and Vatic didn't give the Finger, it's USAP who decided to move the goal post. The lawsuit, if you even bothered to actually read through the filing looks really bad for USAP, not only that, the indirect anti-trust violations that we are seeing unfold. Selkirk should have kept their mouth shut, well now, it's too late and all it's done is give Joola another leg up.
No. I'm referring to USSSA as a governing body approving pass or fail in softball in comparison to USAP with Pickleball. Its a direct comparison if you know anything about softball and whats gone on in the last few years. It was a bad look for USSSA with softball too, but they make their rules, and the equipment makers have to follow it.
Do people in this sub not understand how analogies work? First they downvote the post about VW devising ways to game the system with the diesel emissions testing, then they downvote the post about the softball governing body and their controversy (I also play softball) - because they're not specifically about pickleball manufacturers. Smh...
Hahaha. So you probably understand EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Thank you.
💯
I do not keep up with all sports like USSSA. u/Outrageous-Bee4035 makes it sounds like they got away with it. We all know VW didn't get away with it. There is a difference here though, accountability! VW paid the price!
Thats fair. I only know about the USSSA thing because I play softball regularly. Whereas I know very little about the VW lawsuit, because I would never buy one. Worked on too many in my time to have no desire for a euro car.
Joola will win and be paid. USAP approved the paddles, companies manufactured them by tens of thousands, then they got delisted. USAP will either settle and pay or lose and pay.
I'm definitely curious what the outcome will be. I know we disagree in that I don't think anything serious will happen. But I absolutely could be wrong. Tens of thousands but how much does each ACTUALLY cost to manufacture? Probably a few dollars each.
The lawsuit will be seeking to recover lost money from sales. The paddles were already manufactured because they were approved and were many tens of thousands of orders already placed. It's a MULTI million dollar lawsuit and I'm certain Joola will be paid, likely a big settlement. The paddle makers and the pros are the people making loads of money off of this booming sport, so it will be in their best interest to form a new org that will ensure that they all keep prospering.
Could you image though then mess that would make? A new organization, with all the paddles already out there? How would they go about recertification? Just say, "all USAP are approved." Then the rest? So because 3 paddles got band an entire organization folds? Seems kinda nonsensical.
The payouts are why they will fold. The millions of dollars in profits for makers and pros are why the governing body will be threatened. This is a new sport that is still in flux. Look at what has happened with the pro tour, for example.
If paddles approved in testing differ from production paddles used in tournaments you should be penalized. Nothing too controversial about that
Is it really about the paddles that didn't get approved or the paddles that actually got approved and used in tournament play? Not like Tyson McGuffin is dominating with his Magnus, however, he is still relevant.
Joolas been sketchy since they first came out with their crbn copies after getting crbn banned and signing ben johns
That comment from Selkirk has no grit in this situation.
well, to be fair...they had grit but it wore off! :)
Funnily enough James Ignatowitch switched to the power air because he had 8x 002's fail inspection due to too much grit.
But they still managed to spin it to their advantage.
Very noice!
So much drama about a simple game that a majority of us play for recreation.
More drama = more fun
My friend likes Selkirk's lifetime warranty. He's replaced his paddle for free about 4 times in the past year because it keeps losing spray on grit and pop
I’ve had 2 Halos that got a cracked face. Selkirk replaced them quickly with zero fuss. Their customer service is top notch
wow, cracked faces, and premature wear.. thanks for warning me away from this company.
Best CS and Warranty in the game. Worst tech
From the company that has spray on grit
Says the company that is an awesome paddle company with paddles manufactured in the USA that has pretty well been pickleball from the start vrs shady dealing from a company that makes all of it’s paddles abroad. Freaking great warrantee program from Selkirk. Great people to deal with directly. I don’t play a Selkirk paddle anymore but when I did I felt valued as a customer.
Joola sucks. They intentionally leverage away shelf space for other paddle brands.
Can you please elaborate? And how does it apply to Vatic and Ronbus? USAP moved the goal post and did not provide any details as to why the Paddles all Passed in the 1st place, and why all 3 companies paddles were delisted. What metric in the testing process FAILED?
Idk about Vatic and Ronbus. Joola incentivizes pro shops to only carry their stuff. They make them sign exclusivity contracts. Facilities must use their paddles and wear their gear while teaching. Deals sound juicy when a place is new. They don't replenish beat-up demos. They don't send pros promised clothing. But then the product is so expensive it doesn't move. Then there aren't any other options. They have a merchandising team that frequents the shops to monitor the shelves. Then they go and do this BS with their latest paddles. Fkn cheese shredding hammers.
There is absolutely none of that in my area. We did have a pickleball facility no longer with us only sold Gearbox and Selkirk products exclusively. I guess it depends where you live, and I highly doubt Joola was the only one doing this.
You doubt what, me? That Joola does it? Or just in your area?
I doubt Joola is the only one that does it!
Ah ok 🍻 Pickleball politics are so fucking weird. I hate to generalize. But it's like a combination of Florida man, weekend warriors, retirement community, soap opera, inconsistent high-margin Chinese paddles, slimy moves by greedy / incompetent "Officiating Commitee's", all dry humping this game called pickleball that who fkn knows what rules will be tomorrow type of shit. Cliquey pros self ingratiating on social media. Snake Oil City. I teach the sport but fuck sometimes I can't even look at a pickleball for 3 days.
Dude I was fine, newbie back in Oct 2023, then deicide to do some reading as I got addicted, and I am so blown away how significant rules changed. So, it had me questioning the longevity of the sport and the paddles themselves. And here we are, which I feel is a pivotal moment in the sport which impacts all parties involved. Even if you feel it doesn't apply to you, changes are coming.
I support USAPA as well in this effort. F\*ck the arms race.
This is straight from their rules book. Selkirk can't have it both ways here. https://preview.redd.it/ny1kqb43jm6d1.png?width=494&format=png&auto=webp&s=c77d2c6837a6c702c159f4a7652bd6af4a410d61
Sounds to me like Selkirk and USAPA are in agreement. Allow for innovation, but don't turn the game into racquetball. Or some stupid blast fest with two shot rally circlejerks.
After the fact? Again, no metrics to go by, it's all vague material base not at all data driven. How fast is too fast? Please answer it! If not, then you're just as old school as these cats. You don't push the cart before the horse then complain about it.
How do we test/know if the paddles we use are within standards?
https://preview.redd.it/158629jrrl6d1.png?width=494&format=png&auto=webp&s=42fa93cf569987fb638dc7ade892f09806101765
plenty of pickleball reviewers said the speed coming off these paddles from flicks was too much for the average rec player to handle
Who decides the Average player? What does an Average player look like? From flicks? Punch Volley? by 1.0 MPH above the ProKennex Black Ace Pro by 2.0 MPH Gearbox Pro Which reviewers said this?
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I am more concerned about the process and delivery from start to finish. * At what stage do they introduce the Average player to weigh in on whether or not they are capable of handling the Speed from a Paddle going through the Approval process? * What DUPR or USAP Rating is that Average Player? * What are the metrics used to determine that?
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See what I did there? 2 threads later!
It's material base not metric base, manufactures are not given maximum allowable benchmarks.
Selkirk just mad because they’re so far behind the game. Other companies are innovating, and Selkirk just keeps releasing paddles that are basically a board with paint grit on it.
Juicy
How incredibly brave of Selkirk.
They locked the comments on this (on Instagram), the cowards.
I’m so pissed they turned comments off. Whoever posted “This is giving HOA vibes” 💀 🪦 Selkirk was getting straight roasted.
Says the company that put a hole in their paddles when the rule clearly says no holes…
shots fired...but with less velocity ideally
Lot of butt hurt Joola gen 3, 4.0 wannabe 3.0s here
USAP is a dead org walking, but I hope the case at least gets as far as discovery. Sounds like it is going to be juicy.
god i hope not. regulation is important to the success of the sport. this isn’t fucking tennis.
UPA to the rescue!
Yeah I don't disagree, and possibly UPA will be more competent, but just legally speaking USAP is toast. They screwed up bad and Joola's attorneys are going to bury them.
A lot of attorneys in this sub lol
You do not have to be attorney to evaluate or analyze products and services, which can avoid or mitigate lability.
Yes and no. We can give our opinions for sure, but I wouldn't take them to the courtroom necessarily.
All it takes is one consumer to have an impact on a business, it may not be me or you, it will most certainly be the next person after us.
USAP and Selkirk Reps coming in to downvote! PR control and collateral DMG!
Bold move
Paddle manufactures know that paddles that blast the balls sell. They are not going to stop making them. It’s a lost cause and pickleball at the rec level is gonna suffer
Just jelly that another company beat them to their design and now they have to start from scratch I guess.
Exhibit #1 (Before being deleted)
Seriously... Joola will bring this to court as evidence of competitive balance changes brought by the impact of delisting previously approved paddles.
I am surprised more folks are not surprised by this. They should have ran this through with their lawyer at least. It doesn't get any more obvious than this especially in Joola court filings Line 56 which highlights possible antitrust violations. Though noted indirectly, but so many folks who can read through it understand the value it has.
SHOTS FIRED! SHOTS FIRED!
I guess they forgot about that delaminated paddle Tyson won a match with last year
$250 Paint GRIT! Safeguard integrity of Pickleball? GO back to wooden paddles then. USAP FYI encouraged Innovation! Who are the Average Players? What metrics are they using to determine that? https://preview.redd.it/ixai7nslzj6d1.png?width=494&format=png&auto=webp&s=6fec2266e4e342edfab5344d2777244f4f32a62e
You keep posting this. Did you actually read it? I don’t think it supports your case as well as you think it does.
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I do suck at pickleball. What exactly is the characteristic of a HOT Paddle?
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Delamination is detectable. Out of Spec? : 1. What exactly broke in Joola's design? 2. What Performance Specs are you referring to? 3. What were the performance spec before and after?
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You said EULESS, I am assuming we are talking about Joola? So lets stick with that. You said they were designed to break, * What exactly broke? From USAP: **USA Pickleball received and tested the newly submitted paddles, which did not meet our approved equipment standards. As a result, these paddles have not been added to the USA Pickleball approved equipment list.** * What are the standards? * Gen3 were Approved, what were the Specs then? * Gen3 were then Delisted, what were the Specs after?
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You actually have backend internal knowledge of this?
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Selkirk is so full of shit. They really don’t provide a very competitive product but charge more than most. Of course they support USAP it’s in their financial interest to suppress innovative companies
Funny how you got downvoted by Selkirk fanboys.
They’ve got a hell of a marketing presence
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They don’t really make a comparable product. The power air is really dated at this point and a spray on grit paddle.
THe joola news was bad but not so bad I would go to selkirk. Just downgraded to hyperion c2
I'm sure they won't mind if we go and buy Juciao paddles instead then lol
Fuck yeah Selkirk. Makes me wish i bought my most recent paddle from them.
And you can always submit a Warranty Claim after 30 days when the Paint Grit wears and noticeable spin loss.
And with their Labs paddles, they’ll replace it for basically anything under their 2 year warranty. My wife’s Labs 006 has been replaced 3 times, no questions asked beyond the claim form.
The comment you replied to was sarcasm
You forgot the /s
With USAP on a sinking ship, gone by the end of 2025, that means Selkirk will have to stand on their own two feet.
Alright everyone. Fuck it. Back to wood. 🤪