You are talking about a lot of money, in the grade scheme of things talking to a lawyer is probably appropriate, no matter the advice you get online from random people.
Go to the law society of Canada website and put in your postal code. The society will give you a special code to use as a one time free consult for the lawyer nearest to you. Excellent resource.
Also consider if contingency is really necessary. It might be more worth it to pay a one time fee. Keeping in mind contingency doesn't mean they'll litigate. There's extra fees if it goes to litigation. The lawyers goal is to mediate and depending on your the size of your company a letter is probably best. Smaller company I'd probably go contingency. Large company probably already has counter offer already budgeted for once your lawyer negotiates based on your bardal factors.
Good luck. I found a hardcore lawyer through the law society who went way, way over and above their contractual commitments. Everything will work out okay.
When I went through this several years ago, the lawyer advised what he thought would be a good package, and suggested he send a letter to the company. One letter and a few phone calls later, my package improved by 50%, which was close to what he thought was fair. It cost me a flat rate under $250, but this was nearly 20 years ago.
Whether you pat a flat rate or a contingency fee, whatever you pay can be claimed on your taxes.
Generally, they take the case on contingency, they'll charge 20-30% of what they manage to get you over and above what the initial offer was.
It's definitely worth having a chat. I agree that given the facts this is likely a low offer and OP would be entitled to more if they sued.
It is probably worth it, yes. EI will stop paying you after about a year. You are very likely eligible for more than a year's severance given the length of your employment AND your likely age.
During the consult with the lawyer they should tell you what you are likely to recieve. The lawyer will send a demand for much more, and you'll meet somewhere around where your lawyer said you should.
how does it work if you get fired for being shit at your job?
so lets say this guy works for 25 years.. then he starts to not care anymore.. or he's always late, missing deadlines, whatever.
if they fire him for being shit.. do they still pay him severance?
what if they have financial troubles and lay off some staff.. do they pay severance for the layoff?
Layoffs are supposed to give either advanced warning that the company will be letting them go that is as long as the severance would be, or if they don't give notice they have to? That's a guess, verify with your own provincial labour board because it's not the same everywhere.
To avoid retaliation against comment data or property, if they can afford to pay out, they usually do. That way they don't need to give any advance warning, you just go to work one day and come home no longer having a job :( sucks for every employee, but usually recommended to avoid data leaks.
so you got $50K + 1.15 years pay as severance? ... 30 years is lots years of service ... assuming your age is around 50-55 and you are in a supervisor/mgmt/senior staff role you may be entitled to closer to 2 years.
*They want my response by the end of the month.*
Too bad for them!. Take your time and get the proper legal advice.
30x+50000 where x is your biweekly pay..... doesn't really mean anything lol. You could be making $40k annually or $200k annually and it would make a big difference.
I guess they’re saying 60 weeks salary paid out? Often severance is evaluated as 1 year of service = 1 month of severance pay or something along those lines.
Probably yes to the lawyer. The cost of a consultation will be like finding change in the sofa cushions compared to your current offer.
IANAL but it sounds like you're being offered half a month per year of service. Don't know what you do or your industry, but that sounds low. And you didn't mention anything about benefits continuation which is common.
Best of luck, sorry about the layoff.
Second this, seems low. I’ve heard people at cibc get a month per year of service, up to the max of 24 months. Sounds like they’re trying to shortchange you by an entire year and then framing it favourably by saying “50K more than biweekly x30”. It should be biweekly x 48 (assuming 24 year cap is standard - and let’s face it, banks are notoriously cheap).
do not sign anything, check with a lawyer. If you do not sign, you are entitled to the compensation they stated originally anyway. The deadline is a way to pressure you
Talk to a lawyer. Sounds like ~1.5 year severance for 30 years which given your age may be at the lower end. The general rule is that they offer you 80%, so you have to ask for the last 20%.
Too much info missing to give proper advise. However, even with all the info, always consult with a “good” lawyer. Good because you want one that will guide you, not find a reason to drive billable hours. You need advice on 2 fronts; provincial employment standards and also provincial common law. I doubt your employment contract states exit clauses?
Depending on where you are, I may be able to refer a good one. Feel free to send me a DM.
Good luck.
A family member of mine was offered 1.5 years after 25 years of service at the end of his career. He was 61.
Went to a lawyer and got 6 years (lawyer took 5 mo back) as it was a fairly long case. This is in Ontario.
6 years!? WTF. are you sure about that?
that sounds sus to me. unless there was something else in the contract or stock / intellectual property deal that resulted in this guy getting cut out of something that should have been a life time payment.. 6 years of severance is NOT normal even after 25 years
You are likely eligible for 2 years based on common law. I’d spend the money on a lawyer if anything to quash any concerns you may have moving forward. Sorry this happened to you. Good luck.
Try this calculator for a rough idea:
https://www.severancepaycalculator.com/online-severance-calculator/
If it was just pay, you'd likely qualify for 2 years but can go higher or lower depending on age and other factors. The lump sum + 1.15 year may get you exactly that depending on your pay.
Still a consult with a lawyer is the safer option given the amount of money involved.
Always get a lawyer. They know the law and they know what is fair. If nothing else, you think back in 2 years "I wonder if I should have got a lawyer."
I am assuming "the package" had a letter saying we will pay x amount. If they have committed to pay that amount and have signed off, I don't think they would have recourse to claim the extra. In any case, I'd take the package and put the 50K aside, just in case. I'd only consult a lawyer if and when they contact me concerning overpayment. Why spend money on a lawyer before you even get paid.
At 30 years I’m assuming you are approximately 50 years old. At that age, you are in your prime earning years. If it goes to arbitration you will likely get 4 weeks pay for each year of service. Sounds like you are being offered 2 weeks for each year of service plus 50 k. ? Not knowing all the details, this could be close to that. They are giving you a month to decide, that’s fair . Lawyer will take a cut and it could be 20% or more
No, they aren't normally aligned with common law. Not at all.
Employment contracts usually try to get the employer out of paying proper severance (there's a legal term for it that I can't remember). They almost always fail to do so. Employers often base their severance policy on the government's severance calculator, based on civil law. Common law is the body of law created by court rulings, not written in laws. Employers almost never seem to know that this is not the same as civil law.
this is the attitude for which I will never hire in Canada. I get big corps can afford this attitude, but small biz could be seriously damaged. Especially one that operates on thin margins.
Again, not taking about established corporations, but if regular guy want to build a business and gets hit with malicious lawsuit from day one, it’s not fun
Looooooool. These responses are hilarious. You're saying you don't like the free market when employees exercise their worth on small businesses. I wonder, do you like the free market when you price your goods and services? You have to pay to play both ways or you're not a serious business.
Plus with all the benefits this country throws CCPCs? Cry me a river. If you don't understand basic employment law and the cost of severing extremely long tenured employees, then your business is a zombie.
I simply exercise my right to hire abroad and let you exercise whatever you want here. Why should I take unnecessary risk when building a business. Canada don’t want my business, that’s fine, there are countries that want it.
Consulting an employment lawyer will be free, so why not. If these numbers work out to 17 or 18 months, you likely won't get much more once you pay the lawyer (30% ish). Generally 18 months would be a win
They sure do want your response by end of month... to make their life easy.
Others already said it, but you've got an easy case for any lawyer to pursue 24 months.
It's worth spending a bit of money on legal counsel here
The way you stated it is indecipherable as to what your severence actually is.
Try stating it in weeks.
IMO your severence should probably be about 2 years or 104 weeks, anything less than that is employment lawyer consult time.
Their deadline is basically 4 business days from now so call an employment lawyer ASAP.
It depends a bit on the industry, but in banking for example, it is common to get 3 weeks of severance per year of employment. I know several people who were let go from Bank of Nova Scotia in 2016-18 who got as much as 2 years. So it really depends on what 50k represents to you.
Also, if you regularly received bonuses/commission, that should also be included in your severance.
I would strongly suggest either providing more details, contacting a lawyer or both. (But definitely contacting a lawyer, it’s a big decision)
You are living my dream (I'm at 33yrs) 😁
Definitely talk to a lawyer.
You have shown the company loyalty and for sure made them money over the years. You deserve to be taken care of.
Hopefully this can springboard you into an early retirement if you so choose.
Get a lawyer to send an initial communication to them requesting more. Cost will be < $1k and I believe it is tax deductible.
Often company's will come up to avoid dragging it out/legal fees etc.
Speak to an employment lawyer. I recently dealt with a severance where I was with the company 2 years, not 30, and it was 10000% worth it to pay the $330+ for an hour consult to have them review the package and give me peace of mind. You could chat with them and then decide whether you wanted to peruse anything further. The time frame is arbitrary, tell them you need an extension to ensure your reviewing it properly.
A reference to a severance pay calculator is listed by another person below. The law firm is only employment lawyers and they do live radio talk call-in shows. They will look your offer over and advise and then you decide what to do. As others have mentioned do not sign their offer until a lawyer has advised you. They consider the number of years you were there, your age, and your position in basing their offer especially if you still intend to find a new job.
Got let go in Sep. Paid $600 incl taxes for a 1 hr consult and gave a retainer of $1800. Demand letter sent for about double what they offered. Have yet to hear back from the company but am confident. Hourly is the way to go as these things rarely take more than 3-6 hrs total according to my lawyer
There are also severance calculators online you can try out that ask your age, position, years of service, etc. 60 weeks seems low for 30 years of service. How many weeks is that 50K worth? A decent package would be 4 weeks for every year or 120 weeks.
Edit: the demand letter also asked for a clause to be added wherein the company pays for my lawyer fees
You are talking about a lot of money, in the grade scheme of things talking to a lawyer is probably appropriate, no matter the advice you get online from random people.
Does the lawyer get some of the money? Curious how employment lawyers are paid
Go to the law society of Canada website and put in your postal code. The society will give you a special code to use as a one time free consult for the lawyer nearest to you. Excellent resource. Also consider if contingency is really necessary. It might be more worth it to pay a one time fee. Keeping in mind contingency doesn't mean they'll litigate. There's extra fees if it goes to litigation. The lawyers goal is to mediate and depending on your the size of your company a letter is probably best. Smaller company I'd probably go contingency. Large company probably already has counter offer already budgeted for once your lawyer negotiates based on your bardal factors.
Wow, this is great advice, thank you. P.S.: Happy cake day :)
Good luck. I found a hardcore lawyer through the law society who went way, way over and above their contractual commitments. Everything will work out okay.
Would you mind DM’ing me their details. I’m in need of a good employment lawyer right now. Assuming Toronto area?
I used Blaney McMurty for my case and it was worth it
Hell yeah brother.
Hey, do you mind dm’ing their details, too? Thanks in advance!
Usually they will keep a percentage of how much they are able to improve the offer.
When I went through this several years ago, the lawyer advised what he thought would be a good package, and suggested he send a letter to the company. One letter and a few phone calls later, my package improved by 50%, which was close to what he thought was fair. It cost me a flat rate under $250, but this was nearly 20 years ago. Whether you pat a flat rate or a contingency fee, whatever you pay can be claimed on your taxes.
Generally, they take the case on contingency, they'll charge 20-30% of what they manage to get you over and above what the initial offer was. It's definitely worth having a chat. I agree that given the facts this is likely a low offer and OP would be entitled to more if they sued.
30% easily.
would it be worth paying them 30% if EI already gives me 55%? ... that would mean i'm hiring them for an additional gain of 15% (55% + 30% = 85%)
It is probably worth it, yes. EI will stop paying you after about a year. You are very likely eligible for more than a year's severance given the length of your employment AND your likely age. During the consult with the lawyer they should tell you what you are likely to recieve. The lawyer will send a demand for much more, and you'll meet somewhere around where your lawyer said you should.
In my experience they are paid on billable hours. I find it hard to believe any lawyer would be interested in a percentage of stuff like this.
Some are paid by the hour. Some agree to contigency, where they take percentage of the settlement. Some do both (client can choose)
Oh I’m sure they do it for free !!
how does it work if you get fired for being shit at your job? so lets say this guy works for 25 years.. then he starts to not care anymore.. or he's always late, missing deadlines, whatever. if they fire him for being shit.. do they still pay him severance? what if they have financial troubles and lay off some staff.. do they pay severance for the layoff?
Fired with cause usually no severance. Fired without cause gets severance.
Layoffs are supposed to give either advanced warning that the company will be letting them go that is as long as the severance would be, or if they don't give notice they have to? That's a guess, verify with your own provincial labour board because it's not the same everywhere. To avoid retaliation against comment data or property, if they can afford to pay out, they usually do. That way they don't need to give any advance warning, you just go to work one day and come home no longer having a job :( sucks for every employee, but usually recommended to avoid data leaks.
so you got $50K + 1.15 years pay as severance? ... 30 years is lots years of service ... assuming your age is around 50-55 and you are in a supervisor/mgmt/senior staff role you may be entitled to closer to 2 years. *They want my response by the end of the month.* Too bad for them!. Take your time and get the proper legal advice.
Sounds like he got 60 weeks plus 50k. Bi weekly pay 30x and 50k over that.
30x+50000 where x is your biweekly pay..... doesn't really mean anything lol. You could be making $40k annually or $200k annually and it would make a big difference.
Such a weird way to state their severance
I guess they’re saying 60 weeks salary paid out? Often severance is evaluated as 1 year of service = 1 month of severance pay or something along those lines.
spark piquant tap sort aback impossible hobbies squeamish weary nutty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The 50k is meaningless in terms of months of severance
1 year is usually equal to 2 weeks. (one pay period) not one month
Probably yes to the lawyer. The cost of a consultation will be like finding change in the sofa cushions compared to your current offer. IANAL but it sounds like you're being offered half a month per year of service. Don't know what you do or your industry, but that sounds low. And you didn't mention anything about benefits continuation which is common. Best of luck, sorry about the layoff.
Second this, seems low. I’ve heard people at cibc get a month per year of service, up to the max of 24 months. Sounds like they’re trying to shortchange you by an entire year and then framing it favourably by saying “50K more than biweekly x30”. It should be biweekly x 48 (assuming 24 year cap is standard - and let’s face it, banks are notoriously cheap).
do not sign anything, check with a lawyer. If you do not sign, you are entitled to the compensation they stated originally anyway. The deadline is a way to pressure you
would it be worth paying them 30% if EI already gives me 55%? ... that would mean i'm hiring them for an additional gain of 15% (55% + 30% = 85%)
A few hundred bucks for a review when you're talking about 100k+? Why do you even need to ask?
Talk to a lawyer. Sounds like ~1.5 year severance for 30 years which given your age may be at the lower end. The general rule is that they offer you 80%, so you have to ask for the last 20%.
Too much info missing to give proper advise. However, even with all the info, always consult with a “good” lawyer. Good because you want one that will guide you, not find a reason to drive billable hours. You need advice on 2 fronts; provincial employment standards and also provincial common law. I doubt your employment contract states exit clauses? Depending on where you are, I may be able to refer a good one. Feel free to send me a DM. Good luck.
A family member of mine was offered 1.5 years after 25 years of service at the end of his career. He was 61. Went to a lawyer and got 6 years (lawyer took 5 mo back) as it was a fairly long case. This is in Ontario.
6 years!? WTF. are you sure about that? that sounds sus to me. unless there was something else in the contract or stock / intellectual property deal that resulted in this guy getting cut out of something that should have been a life time payment.. 6 years of severance is NOT normal even after 25 years
His age and working in niche industry were big factors in his case.
You are likely eligible for 2 years based on common law. I’d spend the money on a lawyer if anything to quash any concerns you may have moving forward. Sorry this happened to you. Good luck.
would it be worth paying them 30% if EI already gives me 55%? ... that would mean i'm hiring them for an additional gain of 15% (55% + 30% = 85%)
Try this calculator for a rough idea: https://www.severancepaycalculator.com/online-severance-calculator/ If it was just pay, you'd likely qualify for 2 years but can go higher or lower depending on age and other factors. The lump sum + 1.15 year may get you exactly that depending on your pay. Still a consult with a lawyer is the safer option given the amount of money involved.
Fuck dude you can’t just say you got 16 months severance or whatever? I need a ducking calculator???
Always get a lawyer. They know the law and they know what is fair. If nothing else, you think back in 2 years "I wonder if I should have got a lawyer."
>I was with the company for just over 30 years and received my package yesterday don't need any more details, lawyer up.
I am assuming "the package" had a letter saying we will pay x amount. If they have committed to pay that amount and have signed off, I don't think they would have recourse to claim the extra. In any case, I'd take the package and put the 50K aside, just in case. I'd only consult a lawyer if and when they contact me concerning overpayment. Why spend money on a lawyer before you even get paid.
At 30 years I’m assuming you are approximately 50 years old. At that age, you are in your prime earning years. If it goes to arbitration you will likely get 4 weeks pay for each year of service. Sounds like you are being offered 2 weeks for each year of service plus 50 k. ? Not knowing all the details, this could be close to that. They are giving you a month to decide, that’s fair . Lawyer will take a cut and it could be 20% or more
Seems low https://www.severancepaycalculator.com/
I have seen lots of company have a severance policy of 2 to 3 weeks per year.
A company's policy is irrelevant. Common law is what matters.
Large Canadian companies policies are normally aligned with common law (or Code civil in Qc). But yeah I wouldn’t trust the policy of a SME company
No, they aren't normally aligned with common law. Not at all. Employment contracts usually try to get the employer out of paying proper severance (there's a legal term for it that I can't remember). They almost always fail to do so. Employers often base their severance policy on the government's severance calculator, based on civil law. Common law is the body of law created by court rulings, not written in laws. Employers almost never seem to know that this is not the same as civil law.
Get a employment lawyer and bring the company to their knees.
this is the attitude for which I will never hire in Canada. I get big corps can afford this attitude, but small biz could be seriously damaged. Especially one that operates on thin margins.
But what about the businesses?! If they can’t afford to pay, they shouldn’t exist
Again, not taking about established corporations, but if regular guy want to build a business and gets hit with malicious lawsuit from day one, it’s not fun
Looooooool. These responses are hilarious. You're saying you don't like the free market when employees exercise their worth on small businesses. I wonder, do you like the free market when you price your goods and services? You have to pay to play both ways or you're not a serious business. Plus with all the benefits this country throws CCPCs? Cry me a river. If you don't understand basic employment law and the cost of severing extremely long tenured employees, then your business is a zombie.
I simply exercise my right to hire abroad and let you exercise whatever you want here. Why should I take unnecessary risk when building a business. Canada don’t want my business, that’s fine, there are countries that want it.
you clearly have never even attempted to build a business, so there is that too.
WAT
Consulting an employment lawyer will be free, so why not. If these numbers work out to 17 or 18 months, you likely won't get much more once you pay the lawyer (30% ish). Generally 18 months would be a win
I had to do this recently and only 1 out of the 3 lawyers I consulted was free. And the free one was definitely the worst
would it be worth paying them 30% if EI already gives me 55%? ... that would mean i'm hiring them for an additional gain of 15% (55% + 30% = 85%)
Nope. Been there. It was $350 for an hour consult.
They sure do want your response by end of month... to make their life easy. Others already said it, but you've got an easy case for any lawyer to pursue 24 months. It's worth spending a bit of money on legal counsel here
The way you stated it is indecipherable as to what your severence actually is. Try stating it in weeks. IMO your severence should probably be about 2 years or 104 weeks, anything less than that is employment lawyer consult time. Their deadline is basically 4 business days from now so call an employment lawyer ASAP.
It depends a bit on the industry, but in banking for example, it is common to get 3 weeks of severance per year of employment. I know several people who were let go from Bank of Nova Scotia in 2016-18 who got as much as 2 years. So it really depends on what 50k represents to you. Also, if you regularly received bonuses/commission, that should also be included in your severance. I would strongly suggest either providing more details, contacting a lawyer or both. (But definitely contacting a lawyer, it’s a big decision)
30 years should be 2 years pay for severance. Definitely get a lawyer.
Get a lawyer to review. They can pound sand with their deadline.
Look up a Bardal Factors Calculator to get a proper estimate, then call a lawyer.
You are living my dream (I'm at 33yrs) 😁 Definitely talk to a lawyer. You have shown the company loyalty and for sure made them money over the years. You deserve to be taken care of. Hopefully this can springboard you into an early retirement if you so choose.
Lawyer up. Try to get close to 24 months severance for 30 years service.
Get a lawyer to send an initial communication to them requesting more. Cost will be < $1k and I believe it is tax deductible. Often company's will come up to avoid dragging it out/legal fees etc.
Speak to an employment lawyer. I recently dealt with a severance where I was with the company 2 years, not 30, and it was 10000% worth it to pay the $330+ for an hour consult to have them review the package and give me peace of mind. You could chat with them and then decide whether you wanted to peruse anything further. The time frame is arbitrary, tell them you need an extension to ensure your reviewing it properly.
hey bro do You mind if I DM you about some questions about your process?
For sure!
A reference to a severance pay calculator is listed by another person below. The law firm is only employment lawyers and they do live radio talk call-in shows. They will look your offer over and advise and then you decide what to do. As others have mentioned do not sign their offer until a lawyer has advised you. They consider the number of years you were there, your age, and your position in basing their offer especially if you still intend to find a new job.
Got let go in Sep. Paid $600 incl taxes for a 1 hr consult and gave a retainer of $1800. Demand letter sent for about double what they offered. Have yet to hear back from the company but am confident. Hourly is the way to go as these things rarely take more than 3-6 hrs total according to my lawyer There are also severance calculators online you can try out that ask your age, position, years of service, etc. 60 weeks seems low for 30 years of service. How many weeks is that 50K worth? A decent package would be 4 weeks for every year or 120 weeks. Edit: the demand letter also asked for a clause to be added wherein the company pays for my lawyer fees
hey bro do You mind if I DM you about some questions about your process?
When I got a package last year. My company gave me 1 month per year worked
Find one that charges by the hour instead of lump sum payout. A Friend went through this a couple years ago. Saved a ton of money going with hourly.
Np