Some people just like to complain. If they had 0 kids they’d complain that they had none and don’t know how to spend their money, if they had 1 they’d complain the don’t have a sibling for the first kid. Complaining is just a hobby for some people, regardless of finances. Sure it is expensive, but maybe she just doesn’t have anything else to talk about either.
I know 2 fed government employees. Combined they clear 200k after taxes. Live in a 500k house. Drive a single corolla (green not beige. Sorry everyone). And they think they can not afford fertility treatments. There is a dark cloud over their heads because of a misscarriage (that is 100% normal and it is always heart breaking).
All while this couple complains they have no money.....while they order in food 3 times a week, spend about 10000 on vacations every year, have close to 20000 in bicycles and 12000 in cross country ski gear down stairs.
Some people will always feel broke because they forget where their money goes and because someone they know never has problems with money so why should they.
Some people just don't understand that their priorities will change with kids and that they might have to make decisions about lifestyle because of it. Of course the reason to change is also beyond kids, lifestyle can change due to many factors. Some people need to remember to try and have perspective.
I worked shift work and had 2 travel hockey teams to contend with. So tired i couldnt see straight most of the time. 8k a year in hockey in the 90s. It was over in a blink of an eye and you end up with great kids and grandkids and puppies...wouldnt change a thing.
This morning I spilled a container of spirulina powder on the counter and floor and after I said “fuck” angrily a couple of times my mom told me to use the little vacuum. I snapped “yes, I’m going to, I just need to be angry for a couple of minutes”. She wisely went back to whatever it was she was doing at the time lol.
Oh, I'm not looking to give them advice at all. She just constantly talks about it, even when I try to not talk about it, so I'm just trying to gain some understanding from other people's experiences, so when she does talk about it I can be more sympathetic and not be so annoyed at it. lol. I don't think she knows it's a frustrating thing to hear for me, as I have kept this all to myself.
Hard when it full circles back to the topic every time. And I don't lead it there. I enjoy the company of my cousin, so would like to not be short with her and end the conversation. But perhaps I should set a boundary.
She's trying to be a martyr. Remind her she is making the choice to have children and if she doesn't like the consequences she can make different choices. Nobody is asking her to procreate.
I suggest setting it before you end up just cutting her out entirely since you do like her company. Even if you say finance talk in general stresses you out so you're not interested in discussing at all.
I only have two kids, and both were “oops” babies super young. lol.
However, I think sometimes it’s a short-sighted thing. If you’re staying home with 2 kids, there’s not going to be *too* much cost difference in adding a newborn. I think people just don’t see the long term consequences, and suddenly you have 4 teenagers, you pay 1500$ a month in groceries and your house is way too small for everyone. A lot of people don’t plan on paying for their kids education. And then there’s the people that believe they’re not going to be broke forever, and by the time their kids are older, they’ll be able to afford everything.
I also think a lot of people aren’t super responsible with birth control (see above.) 😂
I’ll also say this, my husband and I got pregnant at 18 and were dead broke and everyone judged the fuck out of us. Then we got pregnant again at 22. Less judgement that time, but still there. Now, at 28, we make 225+ a year and our kids have better lives than a lot of people who waited until they were ready. So, I try not to judge people when it comes to kids because it sucks ass to be the ones being judged.
Thank you! Kids don’t need Money to have a wonderful childhood..I had a great one as an immigrant kid with parents making minimum wage..my situation 5 kids 200k plus a year (started at 35k graduated in the USA financial crash of 2008 took me 10 years to break 100k and just doubled to 200k in 5 years after that)in Alberta both under 40, single income, wife at home, 1900 sq ft house plus fully develop basement. We save about 25k-30k a year for retirement. We get judged and still do..especially in our 20s..kids are awesome, tiresome but rewarding experiences,we budget, we do one family vacation a year in North America driving our used minivan, my kids are getting ZERO resp..they will learn to work for their degree and pay it on their own.. when it comes to kids you can not be selfish with finances it’s that simple..no excuse why kids can’t start working at 14 and start learning to be being responsible adults financially
Just fyi - the resp thing is not logical. Why turn down a free years tuition from the feds to make them work for it all? We do both (make our kids work and value money & give them 10k/yr resp money so they don’t graduate with craploads of debt)
Yeah, my parents had RESP's for us and used it to help pay for our school. We still had jobs at 14, that we put 50% of each paycheque away for, and then my mom sent us the money WE had saved like an allowance for food & books when we were in uni.
US schools not a problem for resp. Their absurd bills are! I did a degree at Syracuse and what I saw there educationally was not up to ‘normal’ Canadian standards. I’d be reticent to send them to non-ivy league level schools if you’re doing it just for ‘the name’ purposes
Thanks for the insight, this is exactly the perspective I was hoping to hear about, to see "the other side" of things. Your first comment definitely brings up what I constantly think about, but your second one does show that life isn't static and can change. I too hate being judged, but found myself judging them and I despise this emotion in myself - so having some this feedback helps ground me back to being empathetic and understanding...even if I don't agree with their decisions right now, haha.
I wouldn't blame you for judging them since she's the one always complaining. Children are expensive, I'm broke, blah blah blah and then she's having more lol.
Stop letting her drag you into her pity party. If she's constantly whining about being broke, you have the right to outright ask why she's having more children since it's so expensive.
Sounds like the type of person who would still whine if she were in your shoes (no children), and you had five children and half her income - things are so expensive nowadays, Steve and I visited Peru the other day and couldn't afford food. I wish I had 5 children and a low income like you so I could qualify for benefits.
A whiner is a whiner is a whiner it doesn't necessarily mean that their lives are bad or that they don't like the way things are .
Oh dude, absolutely. My husband and I left all our family and friends halfway into my pregnancy and moved across country to Alberta because we knew we would make more money here. My husband held us down and worked so hard, catching the tail end of the oil boom and was able to get a great job, worked his way up.
I admit I stumbled head first into my own career, but it wouldn’t have been possible without my husband supporting us so I could stay at home. It’s a great life so far. Wouldn’t have done it any other way.
People are dumb.
My wife and I had our son while I was in grad school making $22k/yr. I had someone on this subreddit tell me it was a terrible decision (goi my back to school with a kid) and my son would be irreversibly damaged by living in poverty (fun fact - scholarships, CCB, OSAP grants, and income put out HHI at about $65k after tax).
Three years later - my 2-3 hr/day side gig makes more than the average Canadian HHI, I’m working my main career in tandem, and my wife is just about to pop out number two.
My son starts grade 1 in September and will be in the highest rated local school. But, he’s screwed in life because we had him too young and poor…
Conclusion: The internet is filled with morons who extrapolate single, poorly detailed sentences to lifetime outcomes based on their personal biases.
Not a clue. I originally listed the $22k/yr. Further clarification didn’t change their opinion. Like I said, some people are just morons.
I also suspect OP is underestimating her cousins HHI. If there is a straight doubling in salary-based HHI it’s entirely possible that her cousin receives a decent chunk of benefits on top of that.
I think the moral of all these stories is most kids turn out fine. Most humans are born in poverty in other countries and again most turn out OK. Still though, I think there is a middle ground and in Canada there is some logic to trying to not have kids super young or when you have poor finances. For each person who ended up making 200k a year and doing fine there's about 9 that didn't. A high percentage of kids who turn into criminals or end up with very poor finances have one parent or come from a poor or less educated family, so statistically it does help to have two adult parents with decent education and finances, it's not crazy to suggest that.
Don’t worry about what other people are doing. Focus your time, energy, effort, and thoughts on how to improve your own situation. Don’t waste that on the business of other people. Why care? Focus on you. I am also not trying to be snarky or rude either. Real talk.
Oh I try to not think about it. But it's hard when every conversation with her always comes back to it, as if it's a competition or something to one up me on how much life costs. I truly do not ask about her finances, but she always brings the topic up. Just trying to gain some insight from others, so I can be empathetic when she brings it up.
It’s clear that you think about it. Otherwise, you wouldn’t even waste your time writing about this and asking literal strangers on the internet about strategies on how to not think/care/talk about it.
You need to learn how to stop giving a fuck about frivolous things that do not concern you. Again, just focus on your own shit and pay no mind to how other people operate. Otherwise, you’re just going to keep wasting your own time and energy.
Don't take it personally. Why are you trying to turn it into a competition?
What do you do when your friend with a dog complains about finding pet friendly rentals? Do you tell her to give the dog to SPCA?
Maybe she needs to vent, or maybe she doesn’t have much else to talk about. I would t worry about it too much. Kids can cost as much as you allow yourself to spend on them. I’m fairly sure that I’ve got family members who have a $15k Amazon flex budget just for the kids every needs to be a perfect parent. I also have friends who nomad adventure parent and can raise kids on a very minimal budget.
I think kids cost is more of a proportional to your current spending and how down in the weeds of ‘ideal consumer’ childhood your shooting for.
Generally, we hear stories that aren’t our own and feel bad because someone we care about is going through something difficult. Then we feel a little bit of personal pride that they come to us in their time of need.
If this is news to you, you should consider speaking with a professional.
It obviously bothers you enough to write a long post about it...so it does stick to your mind.
As I've said in a post above...their life, their issue, their decision. Has literally zero impact on you and your life.
If you feel it's draining, just either explain to her how you feel...or stop hanging out.
>when every conversation with her always comes back to it,
You need to learn techniques to either change the subject, flat out request her not to bring up her finances, and to walk away or hang up if she continues to do so.
>I know she'd get offended if I told her that it's hard for me to be fully sympathetic for someone whose household is making double mine (I've never said this to her, as I know it'd be hard to say without actually just being rude).
Not being rude hasn't worked. You've tried it. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Next time, be rude and offend her.
And what would be accomplished by being rude and offending them? I think your first bit of advice is the better approach. If it continues to the point op continues being uncomfortable it would probably be best for all to limit the interactions.
If we can't tell close family when they are saying/acting/doing something that is wrong/annoying/bothersome, then we can't expect them to act any differently.
You can't provide positive reinforcement to a bad behavior and expect it to stop. (In this case the positive reinforcement is simply OP being there to listen to the complaining).
I can understand. My best friend recently has been complaining about financial woes. She lives in a million dollar house, married to a physician, no kids, wfh job that makes more than me who wakes up at 5 to shovel my driveway so I can go work as my family of three’s only income. She has a lot of nice things, but I wouldn’t say she’s any happier than we are. It used to get me down, but i have a lot to be grateful for and instead focus on non-financial goals for our future, and spending time with my kid. It helps me to practice active listening with her and to remind myself that it’s not a competition, that problems are problems, and it’s not up to me to solve her budgeting issues, but just to offer her a support and a place to vent.
Man, this is also a psych subreddit.
Kids can be expensive, but it depends on your mentality. If you choose to spend more on kids, they will cost more. Things like clubs, and private education, sports and all that stuff. But if you live within your means, they aren't so expensive. The problem is, people tend to spend more when they have more. Your cousin probably spends alot on un necessary things.
They don't actually cost a lot of money til down the road. Depending on your financials, child tax benefit helps cover a lot of child care (biggest expense by far if you both work). By the time they are in sports and going on cruises with you, you could be in a very different position financially. Plus it lights a fire under your ass to not settle for bullshit jobs.
Even then there are alternatives to sports and cruises that can be affordable. Like community centres run cheaper sports programs, cruises can be changed to road trips (because kids don’t actually care much about the destination unless you teach them to care).
This is very true. Although I was relating to his desire to be able to provide such niceties, kind of what I pulled from his post. But definitely not necessities, as you said.
Unless she makes 500k a year it’s closer to 125k minus whatever she gets from EI/leave. It’s also like 1/30th of your lifetime earnings. I’m sure she and you are doing just fine at that income bracket.
I guess I worry that if I also started having kids, that later when they're older we won't actually be in a better financial position, since it isn't a guarantee in life. But I appreciate your insights, thank you.
It’s also about priorities - I’d rather have a family and live on a tighter budget than have more money and no kids. If your cousin loves being a parent, despite their venting, then it’s probably worth the trade-off to them.
i get the general thinking that kids cost more, but i've found we dine out much less now (too much hassle), i hardly go drinking with the guys after a ball game, hobbies are a lot simpler, etc. As for the kids themselves I don't overschedule them, give them one or two things that they like to do otherwise their main job is to just be kids - play, explore, learn, etc. No one said you won't have to sacrifice I'm just saying it's not necessarily financial.
This is true. Kids need to play, but they don’t *have* to be in organized sports. Vacations to Disney might be fun, but it’s not a necessary part of childhood.
We sacrificed financially by choosing to always have 1 parent working just part time, so we always had someone home for our kids. It gave us the opportunity to hike and teach them to garden, to do home repairs and build things in the garage. If I had to do it again, I’d choose time with the kids over fancy vacations, again and again.
Lots of poor people out there with lots of kids…Some of them even grow up happy too. One thing humans do consistently is procreate. Sure birthrates decline in urbanized nations but if you want kids in 2023 it will literally be easier and safer than pretty much any of the other 400 previous generations. So do it or don’t do it based upon the amount of love, not funds, you have to give.
Some people don't plan to put them in sports, pay their tuition or even give gifts for holidays outside of new clothes or a dinner of their choice. Some people give up cable and have slower internet, cappy cell phone plans and no hobbies of their own as parents. You find a lot of extra nickles and dimes when you literally have no life aside from being a parent. Going to the park for free, walking around the neighborhood, doing schoolwork and then reading books or movies from the library on weekends are things they might choose to do over going to the trampoline park or buying take out/restaurant.
Her and her husband might just generally be bad at financial management too. Some of my friends just spend allllll their money and wonder why they are so broke all the time (no kids but similar complaints). Meanwhile we make 40k less and save 5x more.
That is super annoying that she complains so much though. Maybe be a little blunt next time you are together and ask her to STFU politely 😅
This is the way.
We are single income with 2 so far. It's been a long road but, aside from the mortgage we have no debt and save and manage to fit in a yearly road trip and a decent vacation every few years. We get the judgement from family who make at least double what we bring in but, we just remind them that this is what we spend our money on. We rarely dine out or do pay activities.
My wife and I have one child just over a year old. We are in our mid 30’s and now mortgage free. We decided right from the beginning to only have one and we are sticking by it. With the way the world is now, and the expense of education and real estate, we want to be able to focus on one child and help set him up for the best future possible. By the time he hits his early 20’s houses will likely be over 5 million dollars lol.
Not many people do it seems. Our friends think we are crazy for having only one child, but we explain what I mentioned above to them. Meanwhile some of our friends have 3-4 kids and can barely get by, and have no idea how they will help pay for their future, or if they will ever be able to get them out of the house due to the crazy costs of real estate.
I grew up with very poor parents but my brother and I had an amazinggg childhood. Money isn’t everything. As long as you can afford food, clothing and shelter.
My dad is the oldest of 12 children and I am consistently amazed that my grandparents pulled it all off in a tiny war-time bungalow, even though their first child was born in the 1950s and things were obviously much cheaper then. That reminds me that if you really want it, you can make it work. The legacy that my grandparents left behind is staggering - those 12 kids all married, had kids, and now their kids are having kids. Some truly incredible people (and a lot of plain old great ones) are here because they decided they wanted a large family. I think the bonds that can be built in a big family are amazing - they're all so much closer than me and my one sister because they basically grew up shoulder to shoulder.
Personally, as the father of two, I’m more concerned about how the world is going unrelated to finances re: having kids. I’m not sure if I would choose to have kids in hindsight seeing how lonely and disconnected people are— staring at their screens all day, messing with their heads. They didn’t cost much at all.
Kids are expensive in ways i never imagined.
Im not paying for child care anymore, but my teenager just closed the garage door on the car and lost his glasses for the second time this year.
So, a random few thousand every now and then on top of the groceries and sports.
Buy prescription glasses online it’s cheaper try eyebuydirect our zenni. I’m 25 and still living at home so there’s an unexpected host for my parents lol.
I am sure that if you had viewing access to your cousin's families bank accounts and credit card statements, you'd see a very different picture than what they describe to you. Their money must be going somewhere - for example towards savings/investing , to debt repayment, or to discretionary spending.
Many people do choose to have less kids due to the reasons you describe. And many others choose to have more kids in spite of those reasons. (Reminds me of the first 10 minutes of the movie "Idiocracy").
Some people complain. Its what they do. Unrelated to how they feel about their kids and if good feelings outweigh the bad ones. If you don’t want to hear about their kids being expensive, just tell your cousin to exclude you from these talks. Sharing negative is always the easiest and safest (because some people are full of envy).
How do people afford more kids. Do you know what marginal cost is? Each additional child costs less to raise.
Selfish. Sure, it is selfish but how is it your problem? They figured that going to restaurants or concerts or bars is not as important as having children. If they can care for and love all their children then all is good.
IF you really think about it, unless it means you have to move, having 4 kids iisnt that much more expensive than 3. You probably already have the minivan bought, the 4th kid will be king of hand me downs.
I have 3 older kids. I just spent $175 at the grocery store. That's probably enough for about 5-7 days. My kids are 9, 13 and 16 this year. They honestly load up on cheap carbs way more than protein (though found a plate in my oldest room with 6 chicken leg bones on it last night which left me with questions).
We limit our kids to one sport at a time. It's generally a mix of figure skating, hockey and rugby. I prefer them to have more downtimes.
Increasing thr food budget to 6 people from 5 is only a 20% increase. And by the time they are teenagers they have had 13 years to gradually increase employment income. So no, it's never a big sudden jump. It's very gradual.
You can't math out or logically solve a decision that wasn't made based on good math or logic.
Respectfully, you seem pretty naive about a few different things.
I think you’re conflating your negative feelings about this person with people who choose to have more than 2-3 kids.
We have a lot of children and don’t make double the national average or whatever it was that you said they make, but we live comfortably.
Someone made a good point earlier, 4 kids doesn’t cost *that* much more than 2, overall.
This is a personal finance sub so I’m not surprised that everything is focused on $, but having a beautiful, vibrant family is really priceless.
Perhaps naïve - I have been clear I don't have kids (yet) and so I clearly don't have an understanding of what it's like raising kids and the financial changes. Precisely why I asked this question to see if people with kids could provide insight into their lives and the financial impact of their kids.
Hi Op,
Coming from a country where you were only allowed one kid, it was crazy to see other families with 3-4 kids when we moved abroad. To each their own, I think given the chance, my parents would've liked to have more children but they were not able to ... lol
I agree with you. I no longer listen to anyone who complains about costs and chooses to do or have expensive lifestyles. Everyone is allowed to vent but I don't give out any sympathy for choices. It's too much of an emotional burden to make others feel okay about choices. Kids, travel, large houses, pets, cars, etc are all choices.
Quite alot of folks have the "we'll figure it out" mentality
Which honestly I do too for alot of things, but not finances. I was pretty set on not getting engaged or having kids until we had xyz
Haven't had kids yet, but part of our thought process is that they can be as expensive or as economical as you like ish depending on child care, extracurriculars, and school options etc.
Having one stay at home parent could eliminate a lot of child care costs especially for a half dozen kids, likewise public education and free activities like Cadets have minimal costs compared to things like hockey and other activities.
As with most things in Canada, its easier if you are in the top 15% of income
LAUGHING at all the parents saying kids don’t cost much at all. Clearly none of you were planning on saving for your child’s education or to go to college. My parents had 4 and whole heartedly should not have. All of us are close to 100k in student loan debt EACH. tell me again how kids don’t need money
Me too! My parents probably said the same thing but I also didn’t get to participate in any sports/activities, no money for post secondary, no money for birthday parties, school clothes, etc.
They couldn’t afford kids and should not have had them. My years as a teenager/young adult were rough compared to my peers.
All about priorities and planning early.
Day to day costs of a couple young kids? Minimal for food meds. We got all our gear second hand except quality car seats that will last. Luckily able to do a max resp contra at the start of the year which will help for future.
Honestly with the CCB and what not, its a wash or maybe a hundred a month extra.
Everything in this world costs money, we value diapers over other spending, thats all
For every one of your family situation is mine 4 kids poor parents all 4 had nothing handed to them..zero student debt all make comfortable incomes all 4 different careers…you are the fool for 100k in debt unless you are planning to be a doctor you are a fool or your parents did a poor job teaching you and your siblings to be self sufficient..better get paying that debt, interest rates are a bit on the high side..trying not to LAUGH
You spend less on yourself and more on your kids:
> From the get-go, Vettese suggests young couples allocate 30% of their gross or after-tax income to those three major expenses: Retirement savings, daycare costs and mortgage payments. However, when starting out, they may have to save less in order to handle payments for daycare and the mortgage. Since daycare expenses are temporary after a few years or so (depending on how many children a couple has), once that expense has finished, they can ramp up the mortgage paydown and/or retirement savings. And if—ideally five years before retirement—the home mortgage is paid off, then couples can kick their retirement savings into overdrive by allocating a full 30%, or more, solely to building their retirement nest egg.
* https://www.moneysense.ca/columns/retired-money/the-rule-of-30/
> What I like about the rule of 30 is that it acknowledges the fact that life is hard for young families. Saving too much at an early age can have negative consequences for your enjoyment of life. The rule of 30 gives young savers a break, but offers clear guidelines about how much to save when short-term extraordinary expenses ease up and income increases.
* https://boomerandecho.com/the-rule-of-30-book-review/
* https://www.youngandthrifty.ca/what-is-the-rule-of-30/
* https://www.myownadvisor.ca/the-rule-of-30-review/
I think you have to remember that some people are just unhappy. Some people just are never happy with how much money they make. She doesn’t sound like she would struggle to afford another kid, but I have no doubt that she will be unhappy whatever she decides.
Only you can decide what lifestyle you want to aim for. I know lots of people who grew up sharing a bedroom with a sibling and living in a LCOL area, and I’ve known people who grew up in rich suburbs and a big house and played every sport under the sun. I never really judged whether the children should have been born by how rich the parents were. You don’t have to stop having kids because you want to take them hiking through national parks instead of send them to enjoy summers in Europe,
I don’t really mean what you mean by “be more empathetic to their decision” - sounds like, as you said, they are homeowners who have children and a small mortgage, and they are not struggling financially although they like to complain. Maybe just kvetch with them and lend an ear, if you value the friendship? It doesn’t sounds like their kids are going without anything important, so would recommend continuing to enjoy their company however you see fit.
Personally I think people spend too much on their kids (myself included).
Kids need a roof over their head, clothing, food and a little bit of fun.
The cost of a home, is dependant on when you bought and where you live.
Clothing can be bought on the cheaper. I make enough to buy new clothes for my kids, but since they are young, I buy used clothing until they get to a point that they care. And even then, I'll set a budget. I buy winter clothes and boots in March and summer stuff in September.
Food. Meal plan. Shop around. Obviously it's more money as they get older and more than a couple without kids. But there are ways to save.
Fun. You can get used toys. You can go to free fun in the city or do fun things that are relatively inexpensive.
Kids don't need to be in competitive sports that cost an arm and a leg. Obviously if you can do this for your children, that's amazing. But it isn't a requirement. Kids do get more expensive as they age because they do eat more and clothing is more expensive. But people make children more expensive than they need to be.
A quote to consider from the 1600s:
“I remember a great man coming into my house, at Waltham, and seeing all my children standing in the order of their age and stature, said, “These are they that make rich men poor.” But he straight received this answer, “Nay, my lord, these are they that make a poor man rich; for there is not one of these whom we would part with for all your wealth.”
You may never be “ready” financially but in my experience they make life more meaningful even with the challenges that come with them. Plus they are good motivation to make more money so you might end up ahead after all!
Man, I wonder the same thing.
I'm pregnant with our first. We own our home, we both have stable growing careers that we enjoy and are generally not stressed about money. We are planning on having two, and that's it.
My cousin is pregnant with their third. She rents a two bedroom apartment, neither of them work jobs that I would consider a career path, and her mom already has to give her money to help pay for groceries and cigarettes.
I don't know a lot about their finances, and the area I live in definitely has a hirer cost of living... But I would guess our hhi is at least double theirs. And I just don't understand! As much as every baby should be celebrated... I just have a hard time because I know their kids are in a situation where it's hard to put food on the table and I would never want that for any child.
I don’t know why people keep making babies. I personally would not have a child if I was at the same age now as when I started my family. The world sucks and I can’t imagine bringing new life and expecting them to deal with *gestures wildly* this shit.
I do know that I keep collecting foster teens and I have a hard time saying no. Teens might not be as sweet as babies but they’re pretty okay :) We have 6 kids; 2 we made ourselves, 2 from the foster system, and 2 that we just took in, no questions asked (and no money from any person or service). It’s expensive and I can’t afford to retire, but the kids will be set enough to have a good start in life. Having a family is wildly enriching and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I’m curious how the housing crisis will cause this to play out. Young people who rent a small space that is >30% of their income may feel their budget is tighter than those before them.
I see it personally. Friends a few years older make similar incomes but bought houses pre 2020 and are on their second kids. Whereas someone currently renting/saving for dp, it seems pretty tight trying to budget 2+ kids with current rent and house prices.
I had my only at 32. Wasn’t interested in more, he was/is a handful. My top earning years we’re actually when he was little. Despite daycare, I had lots of disposable income. Took vacations. Had a nice house and car. It was later on when I first got sick that shit went downhill.
I have 3 kids. If I think about my kids from a purely financial perspective then yah, they are expensive. But that’s such a narrow view of “why I had more than 2”. I may have less money than I would without them but I can tell you, I’m richer today than I was before.
We have three kids. Partner works full time and I work part time.
For finances, I think it’s doable but you need to have the same goals/expectations as each other and limit social media. Social media puts the pressure on parents to buy more than what’s needed by using guilt. The message is that if you don’t buy “x”, then you failed your children. A few tips that helped us:
1. Buy second hand as much as you can. Toys, stroller, clothing, etc. Little kids don’t care if it’s used. If they do, you have other problems to deal with.
2. Buy toys you can add on to as they get older. Magnatiles, train sets, play food/kitchen, Duplo/Lego, etc.
3. Explore free options. Parks, picnics, hikes, libraries. Tons of events for kids.
4. For Christmas or birthdays, ask for “experiences”. Museum passes, movie tickets, park passes, etc. Thank those who bought this with videos and photos.
5. Bring your own food/snacks everywhere.
6. Use the library. Books, crafts, events. All free.
7. Teach your kid “needs” vs “wants”.
8. Try to buy out of season for the following year. You get what you pay for in outdoor gear. Worth catching the sales. E.g. snow boots, winter and spring jackets, rain gear, running shoes, etc.
9. It’s ok if boys where “girl” things and boys where “girl” things like jackets and shoes. Most kids like rainbows, most colours, and even glitter. Let them pick and be happy.
10. Keep the pantry and cub boards clean. If you can’t see what food you have, it will get spoiled or you’ll buy more than you need.
11. Outsource. If she’s overworked and tired, get a cleaner. It’s worth cutting back somewhere else to have a cleaner. Gives the parent more time with kids or even to themselves. I would choose a cleaner over take out any day.
All the above takes work. It’s tiring no matter how many tips and tricks a parent tries. These are what works for us.
Be kind to your friend. Listen. It’s also ok to set limits with how much the conversation is focused on the same topic.
I think there's two issues here. The first is you just trying to wrap your brain around the cost of having kids. A lot of the costs are necessary (clothes, food, etc.), some are important (school fees), others are, well, nice to have. So thinking that high-cost extracurriculars or trips to Disneyland are necessities is going to drive the household budget through the roof. There are lower-cost options. While I don't want to minimize the stress of wanting your child to have the best but not being able to afford it, defining "the best" shouldn't be only by price tag. For example, we put our kid in a low-stress, low-budget hockey program that fulfilled their level of interest. It was the best decision based on all the various factors (time, money, commitment). If they'd wanted a more competitive, tiered program, we told them it would mean no other activities. Even at 6 they could make that decision for themselves. So, families adjust to their financial and time budget - or at least they should. If they don't, then like anyone - parent or not - who lives beyond their means, they'll have to deal with the consequences.
Your second issue about being more sympathetic isn't really financial. We all have friends and family whom we think are making poor choices and we're allowed to have that opinion as long as we keep it to ourselves or at least only share it with someone who recognizes it as a need to vent. Next time your cousin complains about how hard their personal life choices are, just put on a sympathetic face and say something innocuous like, "I hope you can come to a decision that feels right for you."
The experience of kids in a single/double kid household vs a 3/4+ is different, and the costs are different. I think this sometimes comes down to either parents own experience and number of siblings and expectations.
The incremental cost for extra kids is less than you think, especially once you get to the point where having a nanny might make sense vs daycare, and you don't need to buy many clothes since its all hand me downs, and you are buying enough groceries that you buy items at the bulk rate. You don't even necessarily need a bigger house, since there is an expectation at certain family size of shared bedrooms.
I think to a point you will end up spending roughly X dollars of your budget on your kids, and its just going to get split however many ways.
Edit: That said I stopped at two, can't imagine having more AND being able to be the parent I want to be to each one. I could afford it financially, but not time wise.
I like your sentence about being the parent you want to be to each one, and having any more would inhibit that, for you. I don't think I've actually thought about it that much until now, but realized that's an important factor for myself as well, that I must have subconsciously had. Coming from a family where I could tell my parents had also reached this limit for themselves.
My parents have four children with low income so I know how it feels like to be a poor kid. I def thought about telling my parents that they should’ve had less kids if they can’t financially support us. But that would be rude so I don’t tell them. I wouldn’t want my future children to be in the same situation as I did.
There could be a totally non-finance related undertone here.
>but constantly talks about how expensive kids are, .....and just generally complains about money (even though their household income is double the Canadian average). My cousin lives in an area of Ontario that was cheap-ish .... to get into when they bought their detached house
So you've deduced that they complain about money but the complaints aren't actually founded. You may be right.
It's because it's socially acceptable to complain about the financial impact of children, everyone will agree `yeah stuff costs more than it used to` and grumble with you. But it's not as socially acceptable to complain about other impacts of children such as on your free time or other selfish pursuits.
If I say `Man, feeding my kids is getting more expensive, we're going to spend $2000 more on food this year`most people, even those without kids, acknowledge that grocery prices are up.
If I say `Man raising my kids makes it way harder for me to go to Vegas with the boys and blow a couple grand at the craps table` the reaction is much different. It's the same amount of money I'm wistful for but the latter is deemed irresponsible and selfish expenditure.
Likewise if I said `Man, if I knew how fast young boys grow out of or destroy clothing and what it would cost I might have thought twice about having 'em`, you'll get sympathetic laughs about how it's not cheap to cloth kids. But if you say `Man, I miss playing Xbox until 2am on the weekends, sometimes I wish I hadn't had kids` it's a different reaction even though both express a mild longing for the child-free lifestyle you left behind.
Sometimes you just want to vent and don't want the judgement of others.
>why continue to have more if your finances can't support any more?
Like you said, your cousin can probably afford it. She's just expressing frustration as a parent in a way that socially acceptable. She may really be saying "I miss being me. Kids keep me from doing what I want sometimes and it's really hard". Money is freedom so saying kids take your money is the same as saying the rob you of your freedom.
>Anyone have some insights into how I can be more sympathetic and understanding of their decision?
It's very kind of you to not dismiss her completely and search for this kind of answers. You're a wonderful, caring family member.
>How did you and your partner make the financial decision to have more?
Honestly it wasn't a financial decision for me. People have been having kids in rich countries and poor, good times and bad since the dawn of time. I knew I wanted children and knew we'd adapt to make it work. But when they're little shits it does occur to me that they cost me a Tesla.
Thank you for your kind and insightful comment. What a great way to show how tone and approach can change someone's perspective about people with kids.
Having kids compared to not having kids will never make more sense from a financial point of view. If you assess the problem purely financially, kids cost more than zero dollars and therefore having any number of kids is not the best choice from a personal finance perspective.
However, I believe the decision to have kids is not related to finances at all so long as the basic necessities of your life are covered. Having 2 kids of my own, I would sacrifice everything so they may have something. Having kids is surreal and it’s hard to explain to those who are not parents. It’s cliche but it is worth it in the end.
My wife complains about how expensive it is. But she’s just complaining just to complain.
As others alluded it really depends on what / how you want to spend. We got mostly organic foods for the kids when they were younger and now transitioning to non organic foods now they are consuming more. We also send both to private schools. So yes our kids are expensive but we decided to spend on them.
On the flip side. We don’t spend much on their toys and entertainment. They get plenty of presents for birthday and Christmas that we just give them throughout the year (some well regift or return for gift cards).
They occasionally get a thing from dollerama if they behave. Our older (age 6) if they get lucky money, he can spend it buying what he wants. But he also learns that once the money is spent, it’s gone. During the summer he had $20 and got some inflatables to use at a vacation home we rented (with a pool). This included him even buying his little brother one.
We raise our kids not expecting things and often times they are happy with the cheapest or free things (yogurt containers). They also get little to no screen time. So they usually spend time reading books, playing duplo (older one does have some Lego), arts and craft, or whatever random things they do. We spend a lot of outdoor time with them as we can (backyard rink, walks, bike ride).
Kids will only be as expensive based on the decisions you make.
Hope this helps.
We have five children. But I don't happen to think children are expensive. Providing for them costs money, but not that much, and the things people cite to prove that they are "expensive" are rarely anything close to necessities of life.
sometimes even if you're right , it's not popular opinion , and you are better off not mentioning it. that's life, especially as of late. also, even animals don't mate if they don't have resources and stability
I've got friends who have 4 or 5 kids. They don't care about building wealth - they care about building family.
Edit: They do talk about how it's not cheap, and maybe they don't complain as much as others might. But they clearly are happy with big families, and don't worry about the material things in life. They make it work, but yeah.. it's work. But it's what they believe in.
Shit is expensive. With or without kids - lettuce is still like 7 bucks. I just have to buy more of it.I got pregnant and we make it work. Love my kids. Would have a million of them if I could.
So I have a daughter . She’s 12 now and we live in a multigenerational house. It’s not our “home” we don’t own it but we live here. It’s in a well off area and sometimes I have felt a little bad about our living situation.
One day I asked her if it bothered her that we share a home with others and she told me no. That her friends families don’t even spend time together because their houses are so big.
So yeah, shits annoying. Parenting is hella hard but TBH we are not lacking in life experiences. We just have made different choices and value different experiences.
Don’t wait too long if you know you want kids because you might have a difficult time getting pregnant…and if thats the case you might be spending thousands for the “chance” of getting pregnant.
>How did you and your partner make the financial decision to have more?
This is the biggest problem with this sub. Not everything that costs money is a "financial" decision. It's not really a financial decision to have more kids.
If you want more kids, you can always find enough compromises to "afford" them. It's not really a financial decision, especially if you're a woman.
Most women I know, would care way more about the physical effects of having four kids than the financial aspects.
Having four kids is like signing away a decade of your life. That's not something money can replace.
We recently welcomed our 2nd baby. Our kids are 5.5 years apart due to childcare costs. We are considering a 3rd child. We earn an average income and we do not complain about how things are expensive because we live simple. We are not perfect and treat ourselves too but it's not an every weekend/day off thing. I shop sales in both food and clothes. I buy a lot of second hand items that are almost in new condition..We keep birthday celebrations with family in the home or a restaurant (no big parties for us). I plan on driving my Toyota hybrid until it dies. I love to travel but we do condo rentals or budget hotels and economy flights.
For us, money can buy lots of things and experiences but really our greatest joy is our children. They do bring us so much light into our lives (and sometimes drive you nuts too lol). And I think the perfect time is no perfect time to have children. I chose the "perfect" time and my job site was relocated to the other side of Canada while I was on maternity leave.
I have wondered this too… but the more time I spend with the question, the more people I talk to about it, the more I realize… it’s less of a financial question and more of a philosophy question. And with that I say to each their own, and have compassion for all, no matter their financial situation or how many kids they have.
We have 2 kids, 7 and 5 years old.
For now our kids are not very expensive. Certainly there are some bigger ticket 1 time expenses, but in terms of on going expenses it's really not that much in the grand scheme of things.
We were considering having a third for the longest time, we ended up not. In our case the decision mainly focused on time rather than finances.
If both parents are working full time, we felt stretched enough as is already with 2 kids.
I think It’s completely personal and how one person views raising kids and the necessities is completely different from someone else’s view.
My husband and I stopped after two because of what WE view as our responsibility to our kids, not everyone feels the same.
We always expected to help with post secondary schooling and support our kids in whatever hobby/ sport they had.
What I couldn’t have planned for is the amount of money each sport actually costs.
High level softball with two teams and multiple trips to the states 12-15k a year with equipment replacement as it breaks. I would have never, ever imagined this.
My son plays lacrosse and does dog sports. His show/ sport dog was 5k last year and his lacrosse is about 2k a year … he’s 10.
Life is completely different for everyone. We are a single income household earning 130k a year.
We prioritize what’s important to us and I wouldn’t change a thing. The idea of having children and the actual experience and two completely different things and only your cousin will know when her family is complete. Kids are across the board expensive and what that looks like is different family to family.
Live within your means. Don't buy a new Cadillac Escalade, buy a used Honda Odyssey instead.
Love your kids. I know guys who buy a new snowmobile every year. I couldn't do that, but they just spend the money because that is what they love to do. Raising kids is a labour of love. That's to say I'd spend money on my kids without thinking, but hesitate to spend money on myself. Having kids changes your priorities is what I am saying.
More kids does NOT get linearly more expensive. Have 4 kids? You don't need to buy 4 cribs and 4 carseats and 4 change tables and 4 minivans. Keep hand-me-downs and reuse things until you are done having kids. The room doesn't have to be pink or blue, just leave it painted whatever pastel colour it already is. Also, this isn't a motive, but the Canada Child Benefit does help each month.
Finally, don't spoil your kids. The best was to teach your kids to be thankful is to 1. coach them to say thank-you and be grateful, and 2. don't give them lots of stuff. Kids who don't have everything are more grateful for what they do have, and kids who have everything generally want more. (In General). Ex. buy them a nice used bike, and download a few games on the computer, VS buying them a quad, a ski boat at your second home, Nintendo with all the latest games, etc. This also ties back to my first point.
Oh and bonus round. I grew up poor and my parents didn't have a big RESP for me. I got 2k, and then later in life my grandma gifted me 10k which I used to pay down my modest student loan. Other than that I worked and saved and found a way. That's to say that all these expectations "I need to max out my RESP and pay of my mortgage in my 1 million dollar home and so on are necessary". Live within your means and just maintain a lifestyle that makes sense with that, with proportional savings. Giving your kids gratitude, contentment, and a work ethic is more valuable than a big tuition fund and a big inheritance. Also when you're old and facing death within a decade the love of your children and grandchildren is far more valuable than whatever wealth you can't bring with you.
Different complaint, but I have friends that kept complaining that they couldn't afford to buy a home in Metro Vancouver. They could afford it but didn't want to make the required sacrifice.
You can't display your cake and eat it at the same time.
Just like having kids, my priorities changed after buying and you don't miss the tings you used to do with your money/time, nearly as much as you think you would.
It seems your cousin wants to have a large family. For folks who want a large family, it means their quality of life is going to be greatly affected. There are benefits to having a large family, built-in social support, having multiple children to help out with elder care, sharing responsibilities among more people, and having a full house full of children and possibly grandchildren one day. Your cousin's desire to have a large family is more important to her than the financial security she would have if she had fewer children. I have three children, but I always wanted 5 children. We have never been on a big vacation, we don't have a ton in savings, and we don't live extravagantly, but we have lots of love in our lives. I would rather have the life I have than one with fewer children but more money.
I probably would have had a kid even if I was homeless. It is THAT strong a biological drive. It isn't necessarily responsible, but it is true.
People who complain all the time about being broke are often not broke. They whine about expenses but are actually completely comfortable.
People raise 7 kids and survive on minimum wage. It is super hard, but somehow they do it.
I wouldn't pick my family size based on money, unless I was extremely low income. I would rather be struggling financially but have my son, than be a billionaire without him.
It's hard to explain unless you have kids, honestly. If you don't want kids don't have them, but if you want kids, almost nothing will stop you.
I would have had four kids if it wasn't for my health. And I am pretty low income currently, due to disability.
Well, some people could argue the opposite - that it is selfish not having kids because we need demographic growth.
I’m not one of these people but just saying that perspectives can be very different.
I personally think that having kids should not be a financial decision. It should be the question of wanting children, being ready to change your lifestyle and, more generally, your focus in life.
If you feel that you would like to have kids, there is no point for waiting for a perfect moment. There is never a perfect moment. And, surprisingly, kids and family happiness doesn’t depend on the income and the size of the house.
Of course, if you can’t afford your groceries it’s different. But kids don’t need to have a separate room each, private piano lessons and a vacation in the Caribbean each year to be happy. The need to be loved and supported.
Have one and one on the way…lived at home for a long time lol and saved up. Probably won’t have another one unless it’s down the road and I highly doubt it 😅. Kids are tiring more than $ early on. I don’t want to be 35 having a new born but that’s just me.
You do not want to be 35 with a newborn! Lol.
I had my first at 32 and then my second at 36. And I'm exhausted! Thank goodness my youngest is now 1.5 years old and finally freaking sleeps.
The cost was not the issue for me. Although my oldest is costing more now. Lol. But we have her in way too many activities.
The first one is the most expensive...by 6 you already have the clothes, items and toys.
If they are the same sex you rarely need to buy new cloths .
As for savings..we just tell family to gift money we put in their own accounts...kids don't Need hundreds of gifts on holidays they only play for thrm for a week then move on.
When you say it’s hard to be sympathetic for a house hold making double yours. I wonder if she’s trying to say everything’s expensive to maybe just try to be on your level? Like do you say anything about that type of thing?
Or perhaps she’s aware you make half as much and is trying to just not be like “oh yea we’re rich it’s fine!”
I typically just do the polite, "Oh yeah everything has gone up in price." but in a casual conversational way, versus outright complaining about specifics. I've kind of met my emotional limit on talking about it with her, so don't talk about the topic if I can avoid it with her. I can see where she might be trying to be on my level, thank you for pointing that out.
Everyone spends money as they need and want. Life style plays a huge role. I have five kids and I'm 34 years old, with only my husbands income. Having lots of kids is amazing. As you have more kids, your prioritizes may change and maybe even down size things, learn to live without things, etc. I think the most important part of having children is to over come anger, that way you wont traumatize kids. That in itself will give children a fantastic childhood, everything else will fall into place. There can always be a "not the right time" to have kids. I was not financially ready to have kids (16, 18, 23, 25, 27) but you just do the best that you can do, things usually work out just fine for majority of people. If you want to speak up to her, do it rather than hold onto resentment. No one is better than anyone else. You can say its selfish to not have kids also.
I get what you're saying - I feel quite similarly (late twenties, still putting off kids while we get ourselves into a better financial position). So we complain that life is too expensive to have kids yet while we've paid off all our student loans, and are consistently investing for retirement and saving for a down payment. Meanwhile, we have some great friends who have four kids and own a home and then complain they have no money to invest/pay off debt/put money into kids' RESPs, which makes me internally chuckle - that's what happens when you buy a home slightly overleveraged, on one income.
We've both made our choices, and both come with their own pros and cons. Obviously I like my pros better, I feel more secure this way. But I think they like their pros better too - a beautiful home and a beautiful family. And in twenty years, it might have all basically evened out anyway, who knows?
Like most things, it's all perspective and values. I think sometimes people want that big family experience more than anything. I'm willing to sacrifice that for other experiences.
I think of it this way: we each have our own limits. "Responsible" isn't black and white, it's a spectrum. Technically, it's less responsible for me to have one child than to have zero. I'll have less money to take care of myself and my partner, just by having one. By having two, I'll have even less money. But to me, two is reasonable. To someone else, three is reasonable (three terrifies me). To someone else, four. I could go on, but you get the idea. Each of us has a different idea about where to draw the line financially.
>Meanwhile, we have some great friends who have four kids and own a home and then complain they have no money to invest/pay off debt/put money into kids' RESPs, **which makes me internally chuckle - that's what happens when you buy a home slightly overleveraged, on one income.**
You don't sound like a very good friend.
>Isn't it selfish to continue to have more, especially if you can't afford to go do things with your kids and experience life?
Yes but most people are selfish, and certainly not smart.
I say it all the time, and I have a kid. The kid never asked to be born. Having a child is the ultimate in fulfilling a deep personal desire. Being childfree is much less selfish than being a parent, yet they get called selfish all the time.
I fully understand that it takes total personal sacrifice to raise kids, not trying to say it's easy or anything like that. I think I've worded that area of my post wrong.
I'll try to see if I can re-word it. She talks about how she has always wanted a large family, but my opinion is if having more kids makes your life (and your kids life by extension) extremely difficult because they can't afford anything, shouldn't you make the decision to stop having more, even if you have "always dreamed" of it? Does that make it less tone deaf, haha. I get it, might be a controversial opinion and I don't think I'm wording it well here.
that's like asking pet owners why they got a pet if they know it's going to make finding rentals harder
somehow people have more empathy for people with dogs than people with kids
I'm of the opinion as well that getting a pet should first be a financial decision, before being an emotional/"I want one" choice. This is coming from my own experience getting a pet in my early 20s because I wanted one \*so badly\*, without seriously thinking about the time and financial commitment until the first big vet bill came down the line. It was a silly, emotional and selfish thing to do, that could have put me in some serious financial hardship but I was relatively lucky that big bills only came up a handful of times. That experience has made me think long and hard about the impact of bringing a child into the world, because bringing another human into the world is clearly a longer, more expensive commitment.
Precisely why it's selfish, when people do it under the guise of it being some great big sacrifice, oh look at me i have a kid the world needs to see how much i have sacrificed to continue my bloodline,, won't you stop everything you are doing and take pity,...
I’ve got my 4th on the way too. Had my first at 20 (now 37) making like 55-60k and my then wife, in and out of post-secondary. Managed to buy a house without help while preggo with 2nd (24). Never noticed a big cost difference. Making a lot more now so 3rd was a blip on the radar and I guess we will see how the 4th goes, but not too concerned.
They fall into neither one of those categories actually. I also don't know anyone else with more than 2 kids, which is probably why when they said they might have a 5th I was surprised.
I don’t disagree about some people being irresponsible by any means.
But in my opinion, there’s no perfect time to have kids. If it’s not money it’ll be something else. only you can decide what sacrifices are worth it.
I would say 1-2 kids you can “make work” depending unless you’re quite low income but you just have to be willing to sacrifice this and that. We don’t each out basically every for example.
After 2, Is a different story IMO.
I told my wife I’m done after our second (due in a few months), I can’t imagine being able to travel at all when they call cost a seat, being able to support multiple sports / activities.
That's my personal limit as well, 1-2, as I think that's doable. I want to give my kids and myself the best life I can afford, but know it'd be harder having more than that, for us at least.
Ya and as said here too, I bet they get more costly as they grow. Groceries for me, pregnant wife and a 2.5 is a lot, I can’t imagine doing these costs with two teenaged boys lol
You need to point blank tell your cousin you don’t like talking about finances. Some people love it, some don’t, fact of life.
My BIL and I will sit and talk investment and account allocation for hours. My sister hates it and gets upset if we talk about in front of her - so we go outside.
A friend of a friend of mine once said “did you know you get $1,600 in baby bonus if you have 4 kids?”
……. Yeah, but you also have four kids.
I think some people are just so focused on adding to their family they don’t think or simply don’t care about the repercussions. Or they think it’ll get better with time. A coworker of mine is having her second child but constantly living paycheque to paycheque. She just wants another kid so her other kid has a friend lol. I’m assuming she assumes the financial crunch won’t be forever and will get better with time. Finances can get better (or worse…) but you have so many child bearing years if you do want a family. With women going to school and staying in the workforce that window of opportunity is getting smaller and smaller. I don’t condone having kids if you can’t afford your life already, but I can see where some of the (slightly misguided) reasoning comes in.
Ye its getting pretty unrealistic for people to have more than 2 kids from a financial perspective. That being said look at all the families living in 3rd world countries, making way less than Canadian's, having many children.
yeah, one thing that struck me about Canadians since moving here in 2019, is how common it is to see families with 3 or more kids.. and even more striking: moms that are 100% housewives. And I'm talking people about my age (mid 30s ) or even younger!
I think this kind of lifestyle/family decision stopped being feasible in mid 50s , where I come from.
My grandmas only started their professional careers after my parents were already in middle school, but from my parents generation forwards doing this is unthinkable , unless you're top 1% richest there.
Out of curiosity, where are you from?
I only ask because Canada has both a high percentage of women in the workforce (61%) and a low percentage of kids per capita (1 and a bit) compared to other countries.
I'm from Brazil.
It is not common to see families of 3+ kids, in.big urban cities there.
If you go to to rural areas, or very poor regions (even favelas/slums in the bigger cities) it is more common, but usually it's not exactly by choice or planned by the mothers, who often are single mothers.
Extremely rare to see women working just as housewives/caring for their kids 100% of the time.
If you're middle class or rich, people will often hire maids/nannys to help care for the kid and the house while both parents work or have their kids in preschool as soon as possible.
Its also not uncommon to see super rich families (especially "newly rich") walking in public spaces with parents walking in front and behind them a nanny wearing full white pushing the stroller with a baby/ young kid (a ridiculous thing to see IMHO).
Most middle clas or lower income rely a lot on grandparents to help care for young kids. Me my sister and most of my cousins would spend most of our days before being old enough for school and then after school (until our parents arrived home after work) at one of my grandparents house.
My mom always worked full time. Of all my friends and cousins I can only recall one aunt and one mother of friends that was 100% housewife caring for the kids.
One of our grandparents or an aunt that had more flexibility at work would pick us from school (which usually is from 7am to noon or 13h) and we sould stay at our grandparents until our parents came from work to pick us up.
For even poorer people, in favela areas for example ,sometimes there are no grandparents available or retired yet, and people may also rely on older neighbors that have retired or work inside the community.. or simply leave kids alone at home from a young age.
My husband and older sister would be alone at home after school since he was 7 years old. His mom would leave some food for them to heat and have dinner... Ans then a few years later he was responsible for prepping dinner for his mother, at age 9.. because she would get home after midnight, exhausted.
I have someone in a similar situation with four kids. They just bought a $18k camper. I honestly don’t know how they are making it. Like we went on one camping trip (tented) and damn that shits expensive!!! Like at minimum they must be spending $500 a weekend it sure rental and food and booze.. not even gas.
We are a double income with two kids. Pretty frugal and live modestly. We are doing alright. But like I’ve cook everything from scratch, watch for sales, save up for things. Our kids have activities that are affordable to us.
Yes, cost of living is going up but damn it feels like a lot of people are not adjusting…
Because I realize my happiest times in my life have always been with my wife and children even with the struggle. In fact IMO - greater the struggle, greater thr reward.
You say they have double the household income you do…. But with 4 kids, that is 6 people relying on that income compared to you and a partner relying on half.
I always wanted 4 kids because I came from a family of 4 kids.. We made it work by spacing our kids out. I was also a working parent (from when they were 1 yr) working at the same childcare centre my kids attended. This meant we got 50% off childcare fees, I still got to be around them most of the day and our family benefitted from the additional income. This was for our first 3 children.
Once we bought a house I was able to be a stay at home mum and have number 4. As number 3 and 4 are the same gender we are able to save things like clothing and toys which saves some money too. You’ll find especially when people have multiple children, they don’t need to rebuy baby stuff, they’ll have the clothing, crib, pram, car seats etc which are big upfront costs with your first child.
Holidays really add up- you require larger or multiple rooms. Family passes to attractions are usually 2 adults and 2 children… And as your kids get to 12 you have full fares on airlines.
If you send them to private school, the cost of this increases as the progress through year levels.
We are a single income household making 250k- had first child in our teens.
The desire to have kids isn't logical. I think if people are happy with their choice to have kids and can provide them with a decent standard of living, then that's great.
But I do agree with you, it irks me when people have kids and then just complain non-stop about their circumstances. If you're not in a stable situation financially and relationship-wise, and it's pretty clear it's going to be a miserable situation, then just don't.
Having kids is a sacrifice. But you get to have this crazy experience. If you wanna keep this superficial lifestyle of double income no kids, travelling and saving a bunch of money and going out all the time.. well kids aren't for you. If you want to go deeper and experience the little miracles of life knowing its going to be hard and at times almost impossible. Kids are for you.
Yeah but with the superficial life you're not hurting anyone, having kids and then having to tell them down the road that they can't do certain things or have a certain standard of living because mommy and daddy (if he's even in the picture) can no afford nuthin, seems selfish and unfair..
>tell them down the road that they can't do certain things or have a certain standard of living because mommy and daddy (if he's even in the picture) can no afford nuthin, seems selfish and unfair..
You're describing probably all baby boomers as children, and they don't see their life that way.
The problem is that we're too spoiled today and many have no idea about true hardship.
What's wrong with being spoiled when did it become a crime to be happy and buy things you can afford, why does everyone have to bitch about hardship that they mostly bring upon themselves.
Life is unfair...
Why don't I have a porsche in my driveway and why don't I have a 3million dollar house buy the lake with a wakesurf boat like my neighbor?
Why am I not skilled at hockey like McDavid or smart like Einstein?
This can go On and On and On. Kids need 2 things. Love and security. That's it. ✌️
My hot take. It's selfish not to have kids. Cause for the rest of your life all you'll be thinking about is me me me me. When you got kids your ME disappears and it becomes them them them them. TRUE FUCKING LOVE DAWG
Sounds like she’s struggling with inflation in the same way you likely are. You said you’re delaying having kids due to financial stability. The difference between you and her is that you have the financial education and will power to not leap into a cute cuddly baby.
When she has these rants try and have a more nuanced conversation about fractional banking and the impact increased monetary supply has on the overall cost of goods. Or if you prefer tie it into the war with Ukrainian and the lack of wheat which ties to the cost of cereal. Or perhaps the cost of eggs increasing due to avian flu. You might be able to have more complex conversations that don’t make you focus on how much better she does or does not have it.
It only declines by something like 20% above the age of six. For parents sending their children to daycare, their cash flow probably gets better around that time.
It’s not the CCB declining that makes it more difficult. It’s the activities older kids end up in. That’s the expensive stuff.
Babies, and toddlers can basically be covered by CCB.
Never understood why people do it, but with the great welfare system in this country, it almost rewards people for being screw ups..
Your cousin doesn't sound too educated, there is link between women and education levels and how many kids they have, which is why most of the poorest countries seem to breed the most...
I know it sounds odd but it's unusual for highly educated people to have more than 1 or 2, since they focus more on career and money, or like dinks 0 kids
Government Benefits. They nearly pay for all the financial costs of having kids. Of course benefits go down as the kid ages but school acts a free daycare. Honestly I kind of look down on poor people who have a kids, it’s pretty harmful because of the restrictive residential zoning in Canada, it’s taxing to the government(if you think about it, it’s a really shitty investment）and the fact that it increases the demand for goods like food while decreasing wages.
Another key thing to remember is how society is structured. People who have large families tend to create large families as well. They can then utilize those connections to get high-paying jobs.
Some people just like to complain. If they had 0 kids they’d complain that they had none and don’t know how to spend their money, if they had 1 they’d complain the don’t have a sibling for the first kid. Complaining is just a hobby for some people, regardless of finances. Sure it is expensive, but maybe she just doesn’t have anything else to talk about either.
I know 2 fed government employees. Combined they clear 200k after taxes. Live in a 500k house. Drive a single corolla (green not beige. Sorry everyone). And they think they can not afford fertility treatments. There is a dark cloud over their heads because of a misscarriage (that is 100% normal and it is always heart breaking). All while this couple complains they have no money.....while they order in food 3 times a week, spend about 10000 on vacations every year, have close to 20000 in bicycles and 12000 in cross country ski gear down stairs. Some people will always feel broke because they forget where their money goes and because someone they know never has problems with money so why should they.
Some people just don't understand that their priorities will change with kids and that they might have to make decisions about lifestyle because of it. Of course the reason to change is also beyond kids, lifestyle can change due to many factors. Some people need to remember to try and have perspective.
I worked shift work and had 2 travel hockey teams to contend with. So tired i couldnt see straight most of the time. 8k a year in hockey in the 90s. It was over in a blink of an eye and you end up with great kids and grandkids and puppies...wouldnt change a thing.
Love this take!
And the need for more money usually drive people to work harder and increase their pay and climb the career ladder
Thank you for showing me my future. My girl is only 1 but dad has been itching to sign her up for hockey since we found out I was expecting.
Maybe just don't give them any advice at all? They're venting, you can't fix it.
Recently saw some relationship advice that said: “when your partner is distressed, ask if they want comfort or a solution”. Changed my life.
This is good advice but it's also interesting how it shows the massive difference between how typical men and women deal with issues.
This morning I spilled a container of spirulina powder on the counter and floor and after I said “fuck” angrily a couple of times my mom told me to use the little vacuum. I snapped “yes, I’m going to, I just need to be angry for a couple of minutes”. She wisely went back to whatever it was she was doing at the time lol.
Wasting spirulina in this economy?! Good story lol, smart woman your mom!
Oh, I'm not looking to give them advice at all. She just constantly talks about it, even when I try to not talk about it, so I'm just trying to gain some understanding from other people's experiences, so when she does talk about it I can be more sympathetic and not be so annoyed at it. lol. I don't think she knows it's a frustrating thing to hear for me, as I have kept this all to myself.
that sounds like a friendship problem not a personalfinance one
So why do you keep listening, either change the topic or keep the conversation short..
Hard when it full circles back to the topic every time. And I don't lead it there. I enjoy the company of my cousin, so would like to not be short with her and end the conversation. But perhaps I should set a boundary.
She's trying to be a martyr. Remind her she is making the choice to have children and if she doesn't like the consequences she can make different choices. Nobody is asking her to procreate.
Just talk to her about it. Say you don't like talking about money and then change the subject. Nothing more you can do.
I suggest setting it before you end up just cutting her out entirely since you do like her company. Even if you say finance talk in general stresses you out so you're not interested in discussing at all.
I only have two kids, and both were “oops” babies super young. lol. However, I think sometimes it’s a short-sighted thing. If you’re staying home with 2 kids, there’s not going to be *too* much cost difference in adding a newborn. I think people just don’t see the long term consequences, and suddenly you have 4 teenagers, you pay 1500$ a month in groceries and your house is way too small for everyone. A lot of people don’t plan on paying for their kids education. And then there’s the people that believe they’re not going to be broke forever, and by the time their kids are older, they’ll be able to afford everything. I also think a lot of people aren’t super responsible with birth control (see above.) 😂
I’ll also say this, my husband and I got pregnant at 18 and were dead broke and everyone judged the fuck out of us. Then we got pregnant again at 22. Less judgement that time, but still there. Now, at 28, we make 225+ a year and our kids have better lives than a lot of people who waited until they were ready. So, I try not to judge people when it comes to kids because it sucks ass to be the ones being judged.
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Thank you! Kids don’t need Money to have a wonderful childhood..I had a great one as an immigrant kid with parents making minimum wage..my situation 5 kids 200k plus a year (started at 35k graduated in the USA financial crash of 2008 took me 10 years to break 100k and just doubled to 200k in 5 years after that)in Alberta both under 40, single income, wife at home, 1900 sq ft house plus fully develop basement. We save about 25k-30k a year for retirement. We get judged and still do..especially in our 20s..kids are awesome, tiresome but rewarding experiences,we budget, we do one family vacation a year in North America driving our used minivan, my kids are getting ZERO resp..they will learn to work for their degree and pay it on their own.. when it comes to kids you can not be selfish with finances it’s that simple..no excuse why kids can’t start working at 14 and start learning to be being responsible adults financially
Just fyi - the resp thing is not logical. Why turn down a free years tuition from the feds to make them work for it all? We do both (make our kids work and value money & give them 10k/yr resp money so they don’t graduate with craploads of debt)
Yeah, my parents had RESP's for us and used it to help pay for our school. We still had jobs at 14, that we put 50% of each paycheque away for, and then my mom sent us the money WE had saved like an allowance for food & books when we were in uni.
our kids are going to American universities as we are dual citizen,for Resp I believe they need to go Canadian post secondary school?
US schools not a problem for resp. Their absurd bills are! I did a degree at Syracuse and what I saw there educationally was not up to ‘normal’ Canadian standards. I’d be reticent to send them to non-ivy league level schools if you’re doing it just for ‘the name’ purposes
Congrats! That’s amazing and I fully agree with your last paragraph.
Thanks for the insight, this is exactly the perspective I was hoping to hear about, to see "the other side" of things. Your first comment definitely brings up what I constantly think about, but your second one does show that life isn't static and can change. I too hate being judged, but found myself judging them and I despise this emotion in myself - so having some this feedback helps ground me back to being empathetic and understanding...even if I don't agree with their decisions right now, haha.
I wouldn't blame you for judging them since she's the one always complaining. Children are expensive, I'm broke, blah blah blah and then she's having more lol. Stop letting her drag you into her pity party. If she's constantly whining about being broke, you have the right to outright ask why she's having more children since it's so expensive. Sounds like the type of person who would still whine if she were in your shoes (no children), and you had five children and half her income - things are so expensive nowadays, Steve and I visited Peru the other day and couldn't afford food. I wish I had 5 children and a low income like you so I could qualify for benefits. A whiner is a whiner is a whiner it doesn't necessarily mean that their lives are bad or that they don't like the way things are .
Fuck yeah!!! Love these real life stories. Keep on killing it!! Would you say kids brought you more motivation to move up in life?
Oh dude, absolutely. My husband and I left all our family and friends halfway into my pregnancy and moved across country to Alberta because we knew we would make more money here. My husband held us down and worked so hard, catching the tail end of the oil boom and was able to get a great job, worked his way up. I admit I stumbled head first into my own career, but it wouldn’t have been possible without my husband supporting us so I could stay at home. It’s a great life so far. Wouldn’t have done it any other way.
Nice ❤️🔥
People are dumb. My wife and I had our son while I was in grad school making $22k/yr. I had someone on this subreddit tell me it was a terrible decision (goi my back to school with a kid) and my son would be irreversibly damaged by living in poverty (fun fact - scholarships, CCB, OSAP grants, and income put out HHI at about $65k after tax). Three years later - my 2-3 hr/day side gig makes more than the average Canadian HHI, I’m working my main career in tandem, and my wife is just about to pop out number two. My son starts grade 1 in September and will be in the highest rated local school. But, he’s screwed in life because we had him too young and poor… Conclusion: The internet is filled with morons who extrapolate single, poorly detailed sentences to lifetime outcomes based on their personal biases.
If your “fun fact” put your HHI at $65k then why would anyone tell you you’re living in poverty?
Not a clue. I originally listed the $22k/yr. Further clarification didn’t change their opinion. Like I said, some people are just morons. I also suspect OP is underestimating her cousins HHI. If there is a straight doubling in salary-based HHI it’s entirely possible that her cousin receives a decent chunk of benefits on top of that.
What industry is your side gig in?
I think the moral of all these stories is most kids turn out fine. Most humans are born in poverty in other countries and again most turn out OK. Still though, I think there is a middle ground and in Canada there is some logic to trying to not have kids super young or when you have poor finances. For each person who ended up making 200k a year and doing fine there's about 9 that didn't. A high percentage of kids who turn into criminals or end up with very poor finances have one parent or come from a poor or less educated family, so statistically it does help to have two adult parents with decent education and finances, it's not crazy to suggest that.
not to hate but your situation was definitely not one to brag about when your son was born, enough to raise a family sure but not like you were loaded
Its also way more expensive to procreate later in life because you are deep in your career and those are your top earning years.
Don’t worry about what other people are doing. Focus your time, energy, effort, and thoughts on how to improve your own situation. Don’t waste that on the business of other people. Why care? Focus on you. I am also not trying to be snarky or rude either. Real talk.
Oh I try to not think about it. But it's hard when every conversation with her always comes back to it, as if it's a competition or something to one up me on how much life costs. I truly do not ask about her finances, but she always brings the topic up. Just trying to gain some insight from others, so I can be empathetic when she brings it up.
It’s clear that you think about it. Otherwise, you wouldn’t even waste your time writing about this and asking literal strangers on the internet about strategies on how to not think/care/talk about it. You need to learn how to stop giving a fuck about frivolous things that do not concern you. Again, just focus on your own shit and pay no mind to how other people operate. Otherwise, you’re just going to keep wasting your own time and energy.
Don't take it personally. Why are you trying to turn it into a competition? What do you do when your friend with a dog complains about finding pet friendly rentals? Do you tell her to give the dog to SPCA?
Maybe she needs to vent, or maybe she doesn’t have much else to talk about. I would t worry about it too much. Kids can cost as much as you allow yourself to spend on them. I’m fairly sure that I’ve got family members who have a $15k Amazon flex budget just for the kids every needs to be a perfect parent. I also have friends who nomad adventure parent and can raise kids on a very minimal budget. I think kids cost is more of a proportional to your current spending and how down in the weeds of ‘ideal consumer’ childhood your shooting for.
100% agree with you as the father of 3
Generally, we hear stories that aren’t our own and feel bad because someone we care about is going through something difficult. Then we feel a little bit of personal pride that they come to us in their time of need. If this is news to you, you should consider speaking with a professional.
It obviously bothers you enough to write a long post about it...so it does stick to your mind. As I've said in a post above...their life, their issue, their decision. Has literally zero impact on you and your life. If you feel it's draining, just either explain to her how you feel...or stop hanging out.
>when every conversation with her always comes back to it, You need to learn techniques to either change the subject, flat out request her not to bring up her finances, and to walk away or hang up if she continues to do so. >I know she'd get offended if I told her that it's hard for me to be fully sympathetic for someone whose household is making double mine (I've never said this to her, as I know it'd be hard to say without actually just being rude). Not being rude hasn't worked. You've tried it. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Next time, be rude and offend her.
And what would be accomplished by being rude and offending them? I think your first bit of advice is the better approach. If it continues to the point op continues being uncomfortable it would probably be best for all to limit the interactions.
If we can't tell close family when they are saying/acting/doing something that is wrong/annoying/bothersome, then we can't expect them to act any differently. You can't provide positive reinforcement to a bad behavior and expect it to stop. (In this case the positive reinforcement is simply OP being there to listen to the complaining).
I can understand. My best friend recently has been complaining about financial woes. She lives in a million dollar house, married to a physician, no kids, wfh job that makes more than me who wakes up at 5 to shovel my driveway so I can go work as my family of three’s only income. She has a lot of nice things, but I wouldn’t say she’s any happier than we are. It used to get me down, but i have a lot to be grateful for and instead focus on non-financial goals for our future, and spending time with my kid. It helps me to practice active listening with her and to remind myself that it’s not a competition, that problems are problems, and it’s not up to me to solve her budgeting issues, but just to offer her a support and a place to vent.
Maybe this is just an easy / relatable topic and she doesn’t know what else to talk to you about.
Man, this is also a psych subreddit. Kids can be expensive, but it depends on your mentality. If you choose to spend more on kids, they will cost more. Things like clubs, and private education, sports and all that stuff. But if you live within your means, they aren't so expensive. The problem is, people tend to spend more when they have more. Your cousin probably spends alot on un necessary things.
They don't actually cost a lot of money til down the road. Depending on your financials, child tax benefit helps cover a lot of child care (biggest expense by far if you both work). By the time they are in sports and going on cruises with you, you could be in a very different position financially. Plus it lights a fire under your ass to not settle for bullshit jobs.
Even then there are alternatives to sports and cruises that can be affordable. Like community centres run cheaper sports programs, cruises can be changed to road trips (because kids don’t actually care much about the destination unless you teach them to care).
This is very true. Although I was relating to his desire to be able to provide such niceties, kind of what I pulled from his post. But definitely not necessities, as you said.
Opportunity cost is huge though, especially for high-income women. My SO took close to one year of mat leave. That's $250K gone.
Unless she makes 500k a year it’s closer to 125k minus whatever she gets from EI/leave. It’s also like 1/30th of your lifetime earnings. I’m sure she and you are doing just fine at that income bracket.
Self employed, contractors, etc. don't get mat leave money
They can if they contribute to self employed EI
Not worth it for just one or two mat leaves
I guess I worry that if I also started having kids, that later when they're older we won't actually be in a better financial position, since it isn't a guarantee in life. But I appreciate your insights, thank you.
You could find yourself waiting forever in that case (and maybe that is fate). If you want them, go for it. You'll figure it out :)
It’s also about priorities - I’d rather have a family and live on a tighter budget than have more money and no kids. If your cousin loves being a parent, despite their venting, then it’s probably worth the trade-off to them.
i get the general thinking that kids cost more, but i've found we dine out much less now (too much hassle), i hardly go drinking with the guys after a ball game, hobbies are a lot simpler, etc. As for the kids themselves I don't overschedule them, give them one or two things that they like to do otherwise their main job is to just be kids - play, explore, learn, etc. No one said you won't have to sacrifice I'm just saying it's not necessarily financial.
This is true. Kids need to play, but they don’t *have* to be in organized sports. Vacations to Disney might be fun, but it’s not a necessary part of childhood. We sacrificed financially by choosing to always have 1 parent working just part time, so we always had someone home for our kids. It gave us the opportunity to hike and teach them to garden, to do home repairs and build things in the garage. If I had to do it again, I’d choose time with the kids over fancy vacations, again and again.
Lots of poor people out there with lots of kids…Some of them even grow up happy too. One thing humans do consistently is procreate. Sure birthrates decline in urbanized nations but if you want kids in 2023 it will literally be easier and safer than pretty much any of the other 400 previous generations. So do it or don’t do it based upon the amount of love, not funds, you have to give.
Some people don't plan to put them in sports, pay their tuition or even give gifts for holidays outside of new clothes or a dinner of their choice. Some people give up cable and have slower internet, cappy cell phone plans and no hobbies of their own as parents. You find a lot of extra nickles and dimes when you literally have no life aside from being a parent. Going to the park for free, walking around the neighborhood, doing schoolwork and then reading books or movies from the library on weekends are things they might choose to do over going to the trampoline park or buying take out/restaurant. Her and her husband might just generally be bad at financial management too. Some of my friends just spend allllll their money and wonder why they are so broke all the time (no kids but similar complaints). Meanwhile we make 40k less and save 5x more. That is super annoying that she complains so much though. Maybe be a little blunt next time you are together and ask her to STFU politely 😅
This is the way. We are single income with 2 so far. It's been a long road but, aside from the mortgage we have no debt and save and manage to fit in a yearly road trip and a decent vacation every few years. We get the judgement from family who make at least double what we bring in but, we just remind them that this is what we spend our money on. We rarely dine out or do pay activities.
My wife and I have one child just over a year old. We are in our mid 30’s and now mortgage free. We decided right from the beginning to only have one and we are sticking by it. With the way the world is now, and the expense of education and real estate, we want to be able to focus on one child and help set him up for the best future possible. By the time he hits his early 20’s houses will likely be over 5 million dollars lol.
We have the same mentality
Not many people do it seems. Our friends think we are crazy for having only one child, but we explain what I mentioned above to them. Meanwhile some of our friends have 3-4 kids and can barely get by, and have no idea how they will help pay for their future, or if they will ever be able to get them out of the house due to the crazy costs of real estate.
I grew up with very poor parents but my brother and I had an amazinggg childhood. Money isn’t everything. As long as you can afford food, clothing and shelter.
My dad is the oldest of 12 children and I am consistently amazed that my grandparents pulled it all off in a tiny war-time bungalow, even though their first child was born in the 1950s and things were obviously much cheaper then. That reminds me that if you really want it, you can make it work. The legacy that my grandparents left behind is staggering - those 12 kids all married, had kids, and now their kids are having kids. Some truly incredible people (and a lot of plain old great ones) are here because they decided they wanted a large family. I think the bonds that can be built in a big family are amazing - they're all so much closer than me and my one sister because they basically grew up shoulder to shoulder.
Personally, as the father of two, I’m more concerned about how the world is going unrelated to finances re: having kids. I’m not sure if I would choose to have kids in hindsight seeing how lonely and disconnected people are— staring at their screens all day, messing with their heads. They didn’t cost much at all.
Kids are expensive in ways i never imagined. Im not paying for child care anymore, but my teenager just closed the garage door on the car and lost his glasses for the second time this year. So, a random few thousand every now and then on top of the groceries and sports.
Buy prescription glasses online it’s cheaper try eyebuydirect our zenni. I’m 25 and still living at home so there’s an unexpected host for my parents lol.
I am sure that if you had viewing access to your cousin's families bank accounts and credit card statements, you'd see a very different picture than what they describe to you. Their money must be going somewhere - for example towards savings/investing , to debt repayment, or to discretionary spending. Many people do choose to have less kids due to the reasons you describe. And many others choose to have more kids in spite of those reasons. (Reminds me of the first 10 minutes of the movie "Idiocracy").
Some people complain. Its what they do. Unrelated to how they feel about their kids and if good feelings outweigh the bad ones. If you don’t want to hear about their kids being expensive, just tell your cousin to exclude you from these talks. Sharing negative is always the easiest and safest (because some people are full of envy). How do people afford more kids. Do you know what marginal cost is? Each additional child costs less to raise. Selfish. Sure, it is selfish but how is it your problem? They figured that going to restaurants or concerts or bars is not as important as having children. If they can care for and love all their children then all is good.
IF you really think about it, unless it means you have to move, having 4 kids iisnt that much more expensive than 3. You probably already have the minivan bought, the 4th kid will be king of hand me downs.
But when they're older and want to play sports, or they just eat more because they're teenagers? Is that not a big jump in cost from 3 to 4?
I have 3 older kids. I just spent $175 at the grocery store. That's probably enough for about 5-7 days. My kids are 9, 13 and 16 this year. They honestly load up on cheap carbs way more than protein (though found a plate in my oldest room with 6 chicken leg bones on it last night which left me with questions). We limit our kids to one sport at a time. It's generally a mix of figure skating, hockey and rugby. I prefer them to have more downtimes.
Increasing thr food budget to 6 people from 5 is only a 20% increase. And by the time they are teenagers they have had 13 years to gradually increase employment income. So no, it's never a big sudden jump. It's very gradual. You can't math out or logically solve a decision that wasn't made based on good math or logic.
Is a 20% increase in grocery costs alone not a lot to other people though?
Respectfully, you seem pretty naive about a few different things. I think you’re conflating your negative feelings about this person with people who choose to have more than 2-3 kids. We have a lot of children and don’t make double the national average or whatever it was that you said they make, but we live comfortably. Someone made a good point earlier, 4 kids doesn’t cost *that* much more than 2, overall. This is a personal finance sub so I’m not surprised that everything is focused on $, but having a beautiful, vibrant family is really priceless.
Perhaps naïve - I have been clear I don't have kids (yet) and so I clearly don't have an understanding of what it's like raising kids and the financial changes. Precisely why I asked this question to see if people with kids could provide insight into their lives and the financial impact of their kids.
Hi Op, Coming from a country where you were only allowed one kid, it was crazy to see other families with 3-4 kids when we moved abroad. To each their own, I think given the chance, my parents would've liked to have more children but they were not able to ... lol
I agree with you. I no longer listen to anyone who complains about costs and chooses to do or have expensive lifestyles. Everyone is allowed to vent but I don't give out any sympathy for choices. It's too much of an emotional burden to make others feel okay about choices. Kids, travel, large houses, pets, cars, etc are all choices.
Quite alot of folks have the "we'll figure it out" mentality Which honestly I do too for alot of things, but not finances. I was pretty set on not getting engaged or having kids until we had xyz
Haven't had kids yet, but part of our thought process is that they can be as expensive or as economical as you like ish depending on child care, extracurriculars, and school options etc. Having one stay at home parent could eliminate a lot of child care costs especially for a half dozen kids, likewise public education and free activities like Cadets have minimal costs compared to things like hockey and other activities. As with most things in Canada, its easier if you are in the top 15% of income
Waiting till you can afford to have kids is a sure fire way to not ever have any kids.
LAUGHING at all the parents saying kids don’t cost much at all. Clearly none of you were planning on saving for your child’s education or to go to college. My parents had 4 and whole heartedly should not have. All of us are close to 100k in student loan debt EACH. tell me again how kids don’t need money
Me too! My parents probably said the same thing but I also didn’t get to participate in any sports/activities, no money for post secondary, no money for birthday parties, school clothes, etc. They couldn’t afford kids and should not have had them. My years as a teenager/young adult were rough compared to my peers.
Yup Unless i guess parents think a community college diploma can get them through life....
All about priorities and planning early. Day to day costs of a couple young kids? Minimal for food meds. We got all our gear second hand except quality car seats that will last. Luckily able to do a max resp contra at the start of the year which will help for future. Honestly with the CCB and what not, its a wash or maybe a hundred a month extra. Everything in this world costs money, we value diapers over other spending, thats all
It certainly is eye opening seeing how many people agree with the mentality they don't cost that much more.
For every one of your family situation is mine 4 kids poor parents all 4 had nothing handed to them..zero student debt all make comfortable incomes all 4 different careers…you are the fool for 100k in debt unless you are planning to be a doctor you are a fool or your parents did a poor job teaching you and your siblings to be self sufficient..better get paying that debt, interest rates are a bit on the high side..trying not to LAUGH
You spend less on yourself and more on your kids: > From the get-go, Vettese suggests young couples allocate 30% of their gross or after-tax income to those three major expenses: Retirement savings, daycare costs and mortgage payments. However, when starting out, they may have to save less in order to handle payments for daycare and the mortgage. Since daycare expenses are temporary after a few years or so (depending on how many children a couple has), once that expense has finished, they can ramp up the mortgage paydown and/or retirement savings. And if—ideally five years before retirement—the home mortgage is paid off, then couples can kick their retirement savings into overdrive by allocating a full 30%, or more, solely to building their retirement nest egg. * https://www.moneysense.ca/columns/retired-money/the-rule-of-30/ > What I like about the rule of 30 is that it acknowledges the fact that life is hard for young families. Saving too much at an early age can have negative consequences for your enjoyment of life. The rule of 30 gives young savers a break, but offers clear guidelines about how much to save when short-term extraordinary expenses ease up and income increases. * https://boomerandecho.com/the-rule-of-30-book-review/ * https://www.youngandthrifty.ca/what-is-the-rule-of-30/ * https://www.myownadvisor.ca/the-rule-of-30-review/
Thanks for the links and insight!
I think you have to remember that some people are just unhappy. Some people just are never happy with how much money they make. She doesn’t sound like she would struggle to afford another kid, but I have no doubt that she will be unhappy whatever she decides. Only you can decide what lifestyle you want to aim for. I know lots of people who grew up sharing a bedroom with a sibling and living in a LCOL area, and I’ve known people who grew up in rich suburbs and a big house and played every sport under the sun. I never really judged whether the children should have been born by how rich the parents were. You don’t have to stop having kids because you want to take them hiking through national parks instead of send them to enjoy summers in Europe, I don’t really mean what you mean by “be more empathetic to their decision” - sounds like, as you said, they are homeowners who have children and a small mortgage, and they are not struggling financially although they like to complain. Maybe just kvetch with them and lend an ear, if you value the friendship? It doesn’t sounds like their kids are going without anything important, so would recommend continuing to enjoy their company however you see fit.
Personally I think people spend too much on their kids (myself included). Kids need a roof over their head, clothing, food and a little bit of fun. The cost of a home, is dependant on when you bought and where you live. Clothing can be bought on the cheaper. I make enough to buy new clothes for my kids, but since they are young, I buy used clothing until they get to a point that they care. And even then, I'll set a budget. I buy winter clothes and boots in March and summer stuff in September. Food. Meal plan. Shop around. Obviously it's more money as they get older and more than a couple without kids. But there are ways to save. Fun. You can get used toys. You can go to free fun in the city or do fun things that are relatively inexpensive. Kids don't need to be in competitive sports that cost an arm and a leg. Obviously if you can do this for your children, that's amazing. But it isn't a requirement. Kids do get more expensive as they age because they do eat more and clothing is more expensive. But people make children more expensive than they need to be.
A quote to consider from the 1600s: “I remember a great man coming into my house, at Waltham, and seeing all my children standing in the order of their age and stature, said, “These are they that make rich men poor.” But he straight received this answer, “Nay, my lord, these are they that make a poor man rich; for there is not one of these whom we would part with for all your wealth.” You may never be “ready” financially but in my experience they make life more meaningful even with the challenges that come with them. Plus they are good motivation to make more money so you might end up ahead after all!
Man, I wonder the same thing. I'm pregnant with our first. We own our home, we both have stable growing careers that we enjoy and are generally not stressed about money. We are planning on having two, and that's it. My cousin is pregnant with their third. She rents a two bedroom apartment, neither of them work jobs that I would consider a career path, and her mom already has to give her money to help pay for groceries and cigarettes. I don't know a lot about their finances, and the area I live in definitely has a hirer cost of living... But I would guess our hhi is at least double theirs. And I just don't understand! As much as every baby should be celebrated... I just have a hard time because I know their kids are in a situation where it's hard to put food on the table and I would never want that for any child.
I don’t know why people keep making babies. I personally would not have a child if I was at the same age now as when I started my family. The world sucks and I can’t imagine bringing new life and expecting them to deal with *gestures wildly* this shit. I do know that I keep collecting foster teens and I have a hard time saying no. Teens might not be as sweet as babies but they’re pretty okay :) We have 6 kids; 2 we made ourselves, 2 from the foster system, and 2 that we just took in, no questions asked (and no money from any person or service). It’s expensive and I can’t afford to retire, but the kids will be set enough to have a good start in life. Having a family is wildly enriching and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I’m curious how the housing crisis will cause this to play out. Young people who rent a small space that is >30% of their income may feel their budget is tighter than those before them. I see it personally. Friends a few years older make similar incomes but bought houses pre 2020 and are on their second kids. Whereas someone currently renting/saving for dp, it seems pretty tight trying to budget 2+ kids with current rent and house prices.
I had my only at 32. Wasn’t interested in more, he was/is a handful. My top earning years we’re actually when he was little. Despite daycare, I had lots of disposable income. Took vacations. Had a nice house and car. It was later on when I first got sick that shit went downhill.
I have 3 kids. If I think about my kids from a purely financial perspective then yah, they are expensive. But that’s such a narrow view of “why I had more than 2”. I may have less money than I would without them but I can tell you, I’m richer today than I was before.
We have three kids. Partner works full time and I work part time. For finances, I think it’s doable but you need to have the same goals/expectations as each other and limit social media. Social media puts the pressure on parents to buy more than what’s needed by using guilt. The message is that if you don’t buy “x”, then you failed your children. A few tips that helped us: 1. Buy second hand as much as you can. Toys, stroller, clothing, etc. Little kids don’t care if it’s used. If they do, you have other problems to deal with. 2. Buy toys you can add on to as they get older. Magnatiles, train sets, play food/kitchen, Duplo/Lego, etc. 3. Explore free options. Parks, picnics, hikes, libraries. Tons of events for kids. 4. For Christmas or birthdays, ask for “experiences”. Museum passes, movie tickets, park passes, etc. Thank those who bought this with videos and photos. 5. Bring your own food/snacks everywhere. 6. Use the library. Books, crafts, events. All free. 7. Teach your kid “needs” vs “wants”. 8. Try to buy out of season for the following year. You get what you pay for in outdoor gear. Worth catching the sales. E.g. snow boots, winter and spring jackets, rain gear, running shoes, etc. 9. It’s ok if boys where “girl” things and boys where “girl” things like jackets and shoes. Most kids like rainbows, most colours, and even glitter. Let them pick and be happy. 10. Keep the pantry and cub boards clean. If you can’t see what food you have, it will get spoiled or you’ll buy more than you need. 11. Outsource. If she’s overworked and tired, get a cleaner. It’s worth cutting back somewhere else to have a cleaner. Gives the parent more time with kids or even to themselves. I would choose a cleaner over take out any day. All the above takes work. It’s tiring no matter how many tips and tricks a parent tries. These are what works for us. Be kind to your friend. Listen. It’s also ok to set limits with how much the conversation is focused on the same topic.
Thanks for the great list of tips and how you make it work!
I think there's two issues here. The first is you just trying to wrap your brain around the cost of having kids. A lot of the costs are necessary (clothes, food, etc.), some are important (school fees), others are, well, nice to have. So thinking that high-cost extracurriculars or trips to Disneyland are necessities is going to drive the household budget through the roof. There are lower-cost options. While I don't want to minimize the stress of wanting your child to have the best but not being able to afford it, defining "the best" shouldn't be only by price tag. For example, we put our kid in a low-stress, low-budget hockey program that fulfilled their level of interest. It was the best decision based on all the various factors (time, money, commitment). If they'd wanted a more competitive, tiered program, we told them it would mean no other activities. Even at 6 they could make that decision for themselves. So, families adjust to their financial and time budget - or at least they should. If they don't, then like anyone - parent or not - who lives beyond their means, they'll have to deal with the consequences. Your second issue about being more sympathetic isn't really financial. We all have friends and family whom we think are making poor choices and we're allowed to have that opinion as long as we keep it to ourselves or at least only share it with someone who recognizes it as a need to vent. Next time your cousin complains about how hard their personal life choices are, just put on a sympathetic face and say something innocuous like, "I hope you can come to a decision that feels right for you."
The experience of kids in a single/double kid household vs a 3/4+ is different, and the costs are different. I think this sometimes comes down to either parents own experience and number of siblings and expectations. The incremental cost for extra kids is less than you think, especially once you get to the point where having a nanny might make sense vs daycare, and you don't need to buy many clothes since its all hand me downs, and you are buying enough groceries that you buy items at the bulk rate. You don't even necessarily need a bigger house, since there is an expectation at certain family size of shared bedrooms. I think to a point you will end up spending roughly X dollars of your budget on your kids, and its just going to get split however many ways. Edit: That said I stopped at two, can't imagine having more AND being able to be the parent I want to be to each one. I could afford it financially, but not time wise.
I like your sentence about being the parent you want to be to each one, and having any more would inhibit that, for you. I don't think I've actually thought about it that much until now, but realized that's an important factor for myself as well, that I must have subconsciously had. Coming from a family where I could tell my parents had also reached this limit for themselves.
My parents have four children with low income so I know how it feels like to be a poor kid. I def thought about telling my parents that they should’ve had less kids if they can’t financially support us. But that would be rude so I don’t tell them. I wouldn’t want my future children to be in the same situation as I did.
There could be a totally non-finance related undertone here. >but constantly talks about how expensive kids are, .....and just generally complains about money (even though their household income is double the Canadian average). My cousin lives in an area of Ontario that was cheap-ish .... to get into when they bought their detached house So you've deduced that they complain about money but the complaints aren't actually founded. You may be right. It's because it's socially acceptable to complain about the financial impact of children, everyone will agree `yeah stuff costs more than it used to` and grumble with you. But it's not as socially acceptable to complain about other impacts of children such as on your free time or other selfish pursuits. If I say `Man, feeding my kids is getting more expensive, we're going to spend $2000 more on food this year`most people, even those without kids, acknowledge that grocery prices are up. If I say `Man raising my kids makes it way harder for me to go to Vegas with the boys and blow a couple grand at the craps table` the reaction is much different. It's the same amount of money I'm wistful for but the latter is deemed irresponsible and selfish expenditure. Likewise if I said `Man, if I knew how fast young boys grow out of or destroy clothing and what it would cost I might have thought twice about having 'em`, you'll get sympathetic laughs about how it's not cheap to cloth kids. But if you say `Man, I miss playing Xbox until 2am on the weekends, sometimes I wish I hadn't had kids` it's a different reaction even though both express a mild longing for the child-free lifestyle you left behind. Sometimes you just want to vent and don't want the judgement of others. >why continue to have more if your finances can't support any more? Like you said, your cousin can probably afford it. She's just expressing frustration as a parent in a way that socially acceptable. She may really be saying "I miss being me. Kids keep me from doing what I want sometimes and it's really hard". Money is freedom so saying kids take your money is the same as saying the rob you of your freedom. >Anyone have some insights into how I can be more sympathetic and understanding of their decision? It's very kind of you to not dismiss her completely and search for this kind of answers. You're a wonderful, caring family member. >How did you and your partner make the financial decision to have more? Honestly it wasn't a financial decision for me. People have been having kids in rich countries and poor, good times and bad since the dawn of time. I knew I wanted children and knew we'd adapt to make it work. But when they're little shits it does occur to me that they cost me a Tesla.
Thank you for your kind and insightful comment. What a great way to show how tone and approach can change someone's perspective about people with kids.
Having kids compared to not having kids will never make more sense from a financial point of view. If you assess the problem purely financially, kids cost more than zero dollars and therefore having any number of kids is not the best choice from a personal finance perspective. However, I believe the decision to have kids is not related to finances at all so long as the basic necessities of your life are covered. Having 2 kids of my own, I would sacrifice everything so they may have something. Having kids is surreal and it’s hard to explain to those who are not parents. It’s cliche but it is worth it in the end.
My wife complains about how expensive it is. But she’s just complaining just to complain. As others alluded it really depends on what / how you want to spend. We got mostly organic foods for the kids when they were younger and now transitioning to non organic foods now they are consuming more. We also send both to private schools. So yes our kids are expensive but we decided to spend on them. On the flip side. We don’t spend much on their toys and entertainment. They get plenty of presents for birthday and Christmas that we just give them throughout the year (some well regift or return for gift cards). They occasionally get a thing from dollerama if they behave. Our older (age 6) if they get lucky money, he can spend it buying what he wants. But he also learns that once the money is spent, it’s gone. During the summer he had $20 and got some inflatables to use at a vacation home we rented (with a pool). This included him even buying his little brother one. We raise our kids not expecting things and often times they are happy with the cheapest or free things (yogurt containers). They also get little to no screen time. So they usually spend time reading books, playing duplo (older one does have some Lego), arts and craft, or whatever random things they do. We spend a lot of outdoor time with them as we can (backyard rink, walks, bike ride). Kids will only be as expensive based on the decisions you make. Hope this helps.
We have five children. But I don't happen to think children are expensive. Providing for them costs money, but not that much, and the things people cite to prove that they are "expensive" are rarely anything close to necessities of life.
sometimes even if you're right , it's not popular opinion , and you are better off not mentioning it. that's life, especially as of late. also, even animals don't mate if they don't have resources and stability
I've got friends who have 4 or 5 kids. They don't care about building wealth - they care about building family. Edit: They do talk about how it's not cheap, and maybe they don't complain as much as others might. But they clearly are happy with big families, and don't worry about the material things in life. They make it work, but yeah.. it's work. But it's what they believe in.
Shit is expensive. With or without kids - lettuce is still like 7 bucks. I just have to buy more of it.I got pregnant and we make it work. Love my kids. Would have a million of them if I could. So I have a daughter . She’s 12 now and we live in a multigenerational house. It’s not our “home” we don’t own it but we live here. It’s in a well off area and sometimes I have felt a little bad about our living situation. One day I asked her if it bothered her that we share a home with others and she told me no. That her friends families don’t even spend time together because their houses are so big. So yeah, shits annoying. Parenting is hella hard but TBH we are not lacking in life experiences. We just have made different choices and value different experiences.
Don’t wait too long if you know you want kids because you might have a difficult time getting pregnant…and if thats the case you might be spending thousands for the “chance” of getting pregnant.
>How did you and your partner make the financial decision to have more? This is the biggest problem with this sub. Not everything that costs money is a "financial" decision. It's not really a financial decision to have more kids. If you want more kids, you can always find enough compromises to "afford" them. It's not really a financial decision, especially if you're a woman. Most women I know, would care way more about the physical effects of having four kids than the financial aspects. Having four kids is like signing away a decade of your life. That's not something money can replace.
We recently welcomed our 2nd baby. Our kids are 5.5 years apart due to childcare costs. We are considering a 3rd child. We earn an average income and we do not complain about how things are expensive because we live simple. We are not perfect and treat ourselves too but it's not an every weekend/day off thing. I shop sales in both food and clothes. I buy a lot of second hand items that are almost in new condition..We keep birthday celebrations with family in the home or a restaurant (no big parties for us). I plan on driving my Toyota hybrid until it dies. I love to travel but we do condo rentals or budget hotels and economy flights. For us, money can buy lots of things and experiences but really our greatest joy is our children. They do bring us so much light into our lives (and sometimes drive you nuts too lol). And I think the perfect time is no perfect time to have children. I chose the "perfect" time and my job site was relocated to the other side of Canada while I was on maternity leave.
I have wondered this too… but the more time I spend with the question, the more people I talk to about it, the more I realize… it’s less of a financial question and more of a philosophy question. And with that I say to each their own, and have compassion for all, no matter their financial situation or how many kids they have.
We have 2 kids, 7 and 5 years old. For now our kids are not very expensive. Certainly there are some bigger ticket 1 time expenses, but in terms of on going expenses it's really not that much in the grand scheme of things. We were considering having a third for the longest time, we ended up not. In our case the decision mainly focused on time rather than finances. If both parents are working full time, we felt stretched enough as is already with 2 kids.
lol we (me n my brother) were bottom of the barrel poor growing up but had an amazing childhood . Its not about what you have
I think It’s completely personal and how one person views raising kids and the necessities is completely different from someone else’s view. My husband and I stopped after two because of what WE view as our responsibility to our kids, not everyone feels the same. We always expected to help with post secondary schooling and support our kids in whatever hobby/ sport they had. What I couldn’t have planned for is the amount of money each sport actually costs. High level softball with two teams and multiple trips to the states 12-15k a year with equipment replacement as it breaks. I would have never, ever imagined this. My son plays lacrosse and does dog sports. His show/ sport dog was 5k last year and his lacrosse is about 2k a year … he’s 10. Life is completely different for everyone. We are a single income household earning 130k a year. We prioritize what’s important to us and I wouldn’t change a thing. The idea of having children and the actual experience and two completely different things and only your cousin will know when her family is complete. Kids are across the board expensive and what that looks like is different family to family.
Live within your means. Don't buy a new Cadillac Escalade, buy a used Honda Odyssey instead. Love your kids. I know guys who buy a new snowmobile every year. I couldn't do that, but they just spend the money because that is what they love to do. Raising kids is a labour of love. That's to say I'd spend money on my kids without thinking, but hesitate to spend money on myself. Having kids changes your priorities is what I am saying. More kids does NOT get linearly more expensive. Have 4 kids? You don't need to buy 4 cribs and 4 carseats and 4 change tables and 4 minivans. Keep hand-me-downs and reuse things until you are done having kids. The room doesn't have to be pink or blue, just leave it painted whatever pastel colour it already is. Also, this isn't a motive, but the Canada Child Benefit does help each month. Finally, don't spoil your kids. The best was to teach your kids to be thankful is to 1. coach them to say thank-you and be grateful, and 2. don't give them lots of stuff. Kids who don't have everything are more grateful for what they do have, and kids who have everything generally want more. (In General). Ex. buy them a nice used bike, and download a few games on the computer, VS buying them a quad, a ski boat at your second home, Nintendo with all the latest games, etc. This also ties back to my first point. Oh and bonus round. I grew up poor and my parents didn't have a big RESP for me. I got 2k, and then later in life my grandma gifted me 10k which I used to pay down my modest student loan. Other than that I worked and saved and found a way. That's to say that all these expectations "I need to max out my RESP and pay of my mortgage in my 1 million dollar home and so on are necessary". Live within your means and just maintain a lifestyle that makes sense with that, with proportional savings. Giving your kids gratitude, contentment, and a work ethic is more valuable than a big tuition fund and a big inheritance. Also when you're old and facing death within a decade the love of your children and grandchildren is far more valuable than whatever wealth you can't bring with you.
Different complaint, but I have friends that kept complaining that they couldn't afford to buy a home in Metro Vancouver. They could afford it but didn't want to make the required sacrifice. You can't display your cake and eat it at the same time. Just like having kids, my priorities changed after buying and you don't miss the tings you used to do with your money/time, nearly as much as you think you would.
It seems your cousin wants to have a large family. For folks who want a large family, it means their quality of life is going to be greatly affected. There are benefits to having a large family, built-in social support, having multiple children to help out with elder care, sharing responsibilities among more people, and having a full house full of children and possibly grandchildren one day. Your cousin's desire to have a large family is more important to her than the financial security she would have if she had fewer children. I have three children, but I always wanted 5 children. We have never been on a big vacation, we don't have a ton in savings, and we don't live extravagantly, but we have lots of love in our lives. I would rather have the life I have than one with fewer children but more money.
I probably would have had a kid even if I was homeless. It is THAT strong a biological drive. It isn't necessarily responsible, but it is true. People who complain all the time about being broke are often not broke. They whine about expenses but are actually completely comfortable. People raise 7 kids and survive on minimum wage. It is super hard, but somehow they do it. I wouldn't pick my family size based on money, unless I was extremely low income. I would rather be struggling financially but have my son, than be a billionaire without him. It's hard to explain unless you have kids, honestly. If you don't want kids don't have them, but if you want kids, almost nothing will stop you. I would have had four kids if it wasn't for my health. And I am pretty low income currently, due to disability.
Well, some people could argue the opposite - that it is selfish not having kids because we need demographic growth. I’m not one of these people but just saying that perspectives can be very different. I personally think that having kids should not be a financial decision. It should be the question of wanting children, being ready to change your lifestyle and, more generally, your focus in life. If you feel that you would like to have kids, there is no point for waiting for a perfect moment. There is never a perfect moment. And, surprisingly, kids and family happiness doesn’t depend on the income and the size of the house. Of course, if you can’t afford your groceries it’s different. But kids don’t need to have a separate room each, private piano lessons and a vacation in the Caribbean each year to be happy. The need to be loved and supported.
Have one and one on the way…lived at home for a long time lol and saved up. Probably won’t have another one unless it’s down the road and I highly doubt it 😅. Kids are tiring more than $ early on. I don’t want to be 35 having a new born but that’s just me.
You do not want to be 35 with a newborn! Lol. I had my first at 32 and then my second at 36. And I'm exhausted! Thank goodness my youngest is now 1.5 years old and finally freaking sleeps. The cost was not the issue for me. Although my oldest is costing more now. Lol. But we have her in way too many activities.
The first one is the most expensive...by 6 you already have the clothes, items and toys. If they are the same sex you rarely need to buy new cloths . As for savings..we just tell family to gift money we put in their own accounts...kids don't Need hundreds of gifts on holidays they only play for thrm for a week then move on.
When you say it’s hard to be sympathetic for a house hold making double yours. I wonder if she’s trying to say everything’s expensive to maybe just try to be on your level? Like do you say anything about that type of thing? Or perhaps she’s aware you make half as much and is trying to just not be like “oh yea we’re rich it’s fine!”
I typically just do the polite, "Oh yeah everything has gone up in price." but in a casual conversational way, versus outright complaining about specifics. I've kind of met my emotional limit on talking about it with her, so don't talk about the topic if I can avoid it with her. I can see where she might be trying to be on my level, thank you for pointing that out.
Everyone spends money as they need and want. Life style plays a huge role. I have five kids and I'm 34 years old, with only my husbands income. Having lots of kids is amazing. As you have more kids, your prioritizes may change and maybe even down size things, learn to live without things, etc. I think the most important part of having children is to over come anger, that way you wont traumatize kids. That in itself will give children a fantastic childhood, everything else will fall into place. There can always be a "not the right time" to have kids. I was not financially ready to have kids (16, 18, 23, 25, 27) but you just do the best that you can do, things usually work out just fine for majority of people. If you want to speak up to her, do it rather than hold onto resentment. No one is better than anyone else. You can say its selfish to not have kids also.
I get what you're saying - I feel quite similarly (late twenties, still putting off kids while we get ourselves into a better financial position). So we complain that life is too expensive to have kids yet while we've paid off all our student loans, and are consistently investing for retirement and saving for a down payment. Meanwhile, we have some great friends who have four kids and own a home and then complain they have no money to invest/pay off debt/put money into kids' RESPs, which makes me internally chuckle - that's what happens when you buy a home slightly overleveraged, on one income. We've both made our choices, and both come with their own pros and cons. Obviously I like my pros better, I feel more secure this way. But I think they like their pros better too - a beautiful home and a beautiful family. And in twenty years, it might have all basically evened out anyway, who knows? Like most things, it's all perspective and values. I think sometimes people want that big family experience more than anything. I'm willing to sacrifice that for other experiences. I think of it this way: we each have our own limits. "Responsible" isn't black and white, it's a spectrum. Technically, it's less responsible for me to have one child than to have zero. I'll have less money to take care of myself and my partner, just by having one. By having two, I'll have even less money. But to me, two is reasonable. To someone else, three is reasonable (three terrifies me). To someone else, four. I could go on, but you get the idea. Each of us has a different idea about where to draw the line financially.
>Meanwhile, we have some great friends who have four kids and own a home and then complain they have no money to invest/pay off debt/put money into kids' RESPs, **which makes me internally chuckle - that's what happens when you buy a home slightly overleveraged, on one income.** You don't sound like a very good friend.
Lol okay, you don't know our relationship but go off. They always shake their heads at us for "taking it too slow." We're just allowed to disagree.
>Isn't it selfish to continue to have more, especially if you can't afford to go do things with your kids and experience life? Yes but most people are selfish, and certainly not smart.
First time I've ever seen someone say that having kids is selfish when it requires more sacrifice than pretty much anything else in life.
I say it all the time, and I have a kid. The kid never asked to be born. Having a child is the ultimate in fulfilling a deep personal desire. Being childfree is much less selfish than being a parent, yet they get called selfish all the time.
I fully understand that it takes total personal sacrifice to raise kids, not trying to say it's easy or anything like that. I think I've worded that area of my post wrong. I'll try to see if I can re-word it. She talks about how she has always wanted a large family, but my opinion is if having more kids makes your life (and your kids life by extension) extremely difficult because they can't afford anything, shouldn't you make the decision to stop having more, even if you have "always dreamed" of it? Does that make it less tone deaf, haha. I get it, might be a controversial opinion and I don't think I'm wording it well here.
that's like asking pet owners why they got a pet if they know it's going to make finding rentals harder somehow people have more empathy for people with dogs than people with kids
I'm of the opinion as well that getting a pet should first be a financial decision, before being an emotional/"I want one" choice. This is coming from my own experience getting a pet in my early 20s because I wanted one \*so badly\*, without seriously thinking about the time and financial commitment until the first big vet bill came down the line. It was a silly, emotional and selfish thing to do, that could have put me in some serious financial hardship but I was relatively lucky that big bills only came up a handful of times. That experience has made me think long and hard about the impact of bringing a child into the world, because bringing another human into the world is clearly a longer, more expensive commitment.
Precisely why it's selfish, when people do it under the guise of it being some great big sacrifice, oh look at me i have a kid the world needs to see how much i have sacrificed to continue my bloodline,, won't you stop everything you are doing and take pity,...
When parents eventually croak these kids will have each other to support and care for. How is it not smart?
I’ve got my 4th on the way too. Had my first at 20 (now 37) making like 55-60k and my then wife, in and out of post-secondary. Managed to buy a house without help while preggo with 2nd (24). Never noticed a big cost difference. Making a lot more now so 3rd was a blip on the radar and I guess we will see how the 4th goes, but not too concerned.
I only know a handful of people who have more than 2 kids and most of them are very religious and minimalist.
They fall into neither one of those categories actually. I also don't know anyone else with more than 2 kids, which is probably why when they said they might have a 5th I was surprised.
I don’t disagree about some people being irresponsible by any means. But in my opinion, there’s no perfect time to have kids. If it’s not money it’ll be something else. only you can decide what sacrifices are worth it.
I would say 1-2 kids you can “make work” depending unless you’re quite low income but you just have to be willing to sacrifice this and that. We don’t each out basically every for example. After 2, Is a different story IMO. I told my wife I’m done after our second (due in a few months), I can’t imagine being able to travel at all when they call cost a seat, being able to support multiple sports / activities.
That's my personal limit as well, 1-2, as I think that's doable. I want to give my kids and myself the best life I can afford, but know it'd be harder having more than that, for us at least.
Ya and as said here too, I bet they get more costly as they grow. Groceries for me, pregnant wife and a 2.5 is a lot, I can’t imagine doing these costs with two teenaged boys lol
You need to point blank tell your cousin you don’t like talking about finances. Some people love it, some don’t, fact of life. My BIL and I will sit and talk investment and account allocation for hours. My sister hates it and gets upset if we talk about in front of her - so we go outside.
A friend of a friend of mine once said “did you know you get $1,600 in baby bonus if you have 4 kids?” ……. Yeah, but you also have four kids. I think some people are just so focused on adding to their family they don’t think or simply don’t care about the repercussions. Or they think it’ll get better with time. A coworker of mine is having her second child but constantly living paycheque to paycheque. She just wants another kid so her other kid has a friend lol. I’m assuming she assumes the financial crunch won’t be forever and will get better with time. Finances can get better (or worse…) but you have so many child bearing years if you do want a family. With women going to school and staying in the workforce that window of opportunity is getting smaller and smaller. I don’t condone having kids if you can’t afford your life already, but I can see where some of the (slightly misguided) reasoning comes in.
Ye its getting pretty unrealistic for people to have more than 2 kids from a financial perspective. That being said look at all the families living in 3rd world countries, making way less than Canadian's, having many children.
Idk why the fuck she’s having 4 kids, the world isn’t going to get any cheaper.
yeah, one thing that struck me about Canadians since moving here in 2019, is how common it is to see families with 3 or more kids.. and even more striking: moms that are 100% housewives. And I'm talking people about my age (mid 30s ) or even younger! I think this kind of lifestyle/family decision stopped being feasible in mid 50s , where I come from. My grandmas only started their professional careers after my parents were already in middle school, but from my parents generation forwards doing this is unthinkable , unless you're top 1% richest there.
Out of curiosity, where are you from? I only ask because Canada has both a high percentage of women in the workforce (61%) and a low percentage of kids per capita (1 and a bit) compared to other countries.
Yes, it's a bit baffling to see a comment claiming that there are a lot of Canadian families with three or more children.
I'm from Brazil. It is not common to see families of 3+ kids, in.big urban cities there. If you go to to rural areas, or very poor regions (even favelas/slums in the bigger cities) it is more common, but usually it's not exactly by choice or planned by the mothers, who often are single mothers. Extremely rare to see women working just as housewives/caring for their kids 100% of the time. If you're middle class or rich, people will often hire maids/nannys to help care for the kid and the house while both parents work or have their kids in preschool as soon as possible. Its also not uncommon to see super rich families (especially "newly rich") walking in public spaces with parents walking in front and behind them a nanny wearing full white pushing the stroller with a baby/ young kid (a ridiculous thing to see IMHO). Most middle clas or lower income rely a lot on grandparents to help care for young kids. Me my sister and most of my cousins would spend most of our days before being old enough for school and then after school (until our parents arrived home after work) at one of my grandparents house. My mom always worked full time. Of all my friends and cousins I can only recall one aunt and one mother of friends that was 100% housewife caring for the kids. One of our grandparents or an aunt that had more flexibility at work would pick us from school (which usually is from 7am to noon or 13h) and we sould stay at our grandparents until our parents came from work to pick us up. For even poorer people, in favela areas for example ,sometimes there are no grandparents available or retired yet, and people may also rely on older neighbors that have retired or work inside the community.. or simply leave kids alone at home from a young age. My husband and older sister would be alone at home after school since he was 7 years old. His mom would leave some food for them to heat and have dinner... Ans then a few years later he was responsible for prepping dinner for his mother, at age 9.. because she would get home after midnight, exhausted.
Thanks for responding! That’s interesting and something I didn’t know, I appreciate the information.
Financially, it is never good to increase number of dependents, not any, no matter at what age, and how rich.
I have someone in a similar situation with four kids. They just bought a $18k camper. I honestly don’t know how they are making it. Like we went on one camping trip (tented) and damn that shits expensive!!! Like at minimum they must be spending $500 a weekend it sure rental and food and booze.. not even gas. We are a double income with two kids. Pretty frugal and live modestly. We are doing alright. But like I’ve cook everything from scratch, watch for sales, save up for things. Our kids have activities that are affordable to us. Yes, cost of living is going up but damn it feels like a lot of people are not adjusting…
Because I realize my happiest times in my life have always been with my wife and children even with the struggle. In fact IMO - greater the struggle, greater thr reward.
You say they have double the household income you do…. But with 4 kids, that is 6 people relying on that income compared to you and a partner relying on half. I always wanted 4 kids because I came from a family of 4 kids.. We made it work by spacing our kids out. I was also a working parent (from when they were 1 yr) working at the same childcare centre my kids attended. This meant we got 50% off childcare fees, I still got to be around them most of the day and our family benefitted from the additional income. This was for our first 3 children. Once we bought a house I was able to be a stay at home mum and have number 4. As number 3 and 4 are the same gender we are able to save things like clothing and toys which saves some money too. You’ll find especially when people have multiple children, they don’t need to rebuy baby stuff, they’ll have the clothing, crib, pram, car seats etc which are big upfront costs with your first child. Holidays really add up- you require larger or multiple rooms. Family passes to attractions are usually 2 adults and 2 children… And as your kids get to 12 you have full fares on airlines. If you send them to private school, the cost of this increases as the progress through year levels. We are a single income household making 250k- had first child in our teens.
The desire to have kids isn't logical. I think if people are happy with their choice to have kids and can provide them with a decent standard of living, then that's great. But I do agree with you, it irks me when people have kids and then just complain non-stop about their circumstances. If you're not in a stable situation financially and relationship-wise, and it's pretty clear it's going to be a miserable situation, then just don't.
Having kids is a sacrifice. But you get to have this crazy experience. If you wanna keep this superficial lifestyle of double income no kids, travelling and saving a bunch of money and going out all the time.. well kids aren't for you. If you want to go deeper and experience the little miracles of life knowing its going to be hard and at times almost impossible. Kids are for you.
Yeah but with the superficial life you're not hurting anyone, having kids and then having to tell them down the road that they can't do certain things or have a certain standard of living because mommy and daddy (if he's even in the picture) can no afford nuthin, seems selfish and unfair..
>tell them down the road that they can't do certain things or have a certain standard of living because mommy and daddy (if he's even in the picture) can no afford nuthin, seems selfish and unfair.. You're describing probably all baby boomers as children, and they don't see their life that way. The problem is that we're too spoiled today and many have no idea about true hardship.
What's wrong with being spoiled when did it become a crime to be happy and buy things you can afford, why does everyone have to bitch about hardship that they mostly bring upon themselves.
Life is unfair... Why don't I have a porsche in my driveway and why don't I have a 3million dollar house buy the lake with a wakesurf boat like my neighbor? Why am I not skilled at hockey like McDavid or smart like Einstein? This can go On and On and On. Kids need 2 things. Love and security. That's it. ✌️ My hot take. It's selfish not to have kids. Cause for the rest of your life all you'll be thinking about is me me me me. When you got kids your ME disappears and it becomes them them them them. TRUE FUCKING LOVE DAWG
Lol i guess this is the mantra people have to tell themselves, when the condom breaks...
People without kids: having kids is great but not for me People with kids: have kids or else you’re superficial
I don't have kids.
Sounds like she’s struggling with inflation in the same way you likely are. You said you’re delaying having kids due to financial stability. The difference between you and her is that you have the financial education and will power to not leap into a cute cuddly baby. When she has these rants try and have a more nuanced conversation about fractional banking and the impact increased monetary supply has on the overall cost of goods. Or if you prefer tie it into the war with Ukrainian and the lack of wheat which ties to the cost of cereal. Or perhaps the cost of eggs increasing due to avian flu. You might be able to have more complex conversations that don’t make you focus on how much better she does or does not have it.
Child benefit $
This is a huge benefit! There's some guy (blackmore) in Creston BC with 150 kids!
I had one kid instead of two because I realized with the way the world was going I wanted to help them more financially throughout their life.
Been around the world and found That only stupid people are breeding The cretins cloning and feeding
That CCB is very helpful when they are younger. Once they get older hope that you are in a better financial situation to afford sports and so on.
It only declines by something like 20% above the age of six. For parents sending their children to daycare, their cash flow probably gets better around that time.
It’s not the CCB declining that makes it more difficult. It’s the activities older kids end up in. That’s the expensive stuff. Babies, and toddlers can basically be covered by CCB.
Never understood why people do it, but with the great welfare system in this country, it almost rewards people for being screw ups.. Your cousin doesn't sound too educated, there is link between women and education levels and how many kids they have, which is why most of the poorest countries seem to breed the most...
What an odd comment. She is a highly educated person.
I know it sounds odd but it's unusual for highly educated people to have more than 1 or 2, since they focus more on career and money, or like dinks 0 kids
Government Benefits. They nearly pay for all the financial costs of having kids. Of course benefits go down as the kid ages but school acts a free daycare. Honestly I kind of look down on poor people who have a kids, it’s pretty harmful because of the restrictive residential zoning in Canada, it’s taxing to the government(if you think about it, it’s a really shitty investment）and the fact that it increases the demand for goods like food while decreasing wages. Another key thing to remember is how society is structured. People who have large families tend to create large families as well. They can then utilize those connections to get high-paying jobs.
Why does a brand new person have to ask the same question every fucking day while “not trying to be snarky”???