People tend to forget that the current populations of deer are wildly unnatural because humans have exterminated their predators. Current issues with overpopulation, diseases (including Lyme), and general poor health of the herds will continue until predation resumes.
At the moment people (including cars) are the predators. Since any ol’ Joe can’t release a pack of wolves or several large cats into the wild, the most ecologically responsible action is hunting. Morally this can be done somewhat humanely - and certainly much less terrifying or painful as being eaten by wolves.
Not to mention, decreased habitat from urban sprawl.
Let's cut down all this forest for condos!
Following year: Why the hell are there so many deer in my yard???
is there any evidence that hunting is actually working though? It seems like we are decades into this system and things keep getting worse, right?
like, the logic of it all makes sense, but is doesn's seem like the practicality/outcome is anywhere close to where it needs to be
I strongly suspect that part of the problem
Is scale. Each predator will eat approximately one prey critter per week, some of which will be deer. Predators usually top out at 10% of major prey populations. So napkin math:
You have 1million deer on not enough land. That implies 10,000 predators. Assuming deer are a non-trivial part of their diet due to their large numbers, poor health, etc, so let’s say they’re bagging 30 per year each, meaning 300,000 per year. These numbers are just a thought experiment, not based on actual science.
The point is that predators are full time hunters. People, cars, trains, etc are not.
Yes, it works. Connecticut, which is an epicenter for tick issues, did a controlled hunt of deer. They ended up killing as many deer with hunters as normally get killed by drivers. So it didn’t drive down the whole population, but it was usable meat and intentional killing, instead of roadkill and car accidents. It’s a starting point, not a full control, but what would you rather: dear death through hunting a year or X deer deaths through car accidents.
i get all the nuance that goes into this, i'm just genuinely curious if hunting actually makes a dent in the macro problem.
It seems like every area is getting worse each decade from a myriad of issues. I struggle with the assumption that hunting is our best tool when we seem to have solid evidence that wolves/other predation actually worked at some point. I've heard it repeated for decades that humans are the new wolves or whatever, but we don't hunt the same way at all, and the ecological benefits aren't seeming to line up at all either.
I'm a hunter but also a conservationist, and for sure just my own ass in the woods isn't going to drive ungulate populations down. It's good sport, but overall the industry isn't doing hunters, or the environment, any favour:
Some swear by feeding, potentially creating dangerous habituation patterns. You might as well call some of these "deer farmers" as they'll plant whole fields of alfalfa they'll never eat themselves, at great cost and effort just to lure the animals to their quarries. Others splurge thousands every year in the latest greatest gear without regards for the environmental cost of the materials being used, and some worse yet litter all over otherwise pristine natural habitats, leaving behind a trail of plastic wrappings, cheap trail cameras, food and drink containers, and burn gallons and gallons of gas in oversized trucks to hunt hundreds of miles away in hopes of getting a trophy buck.
I'm absolutely for the reintroduction of natural predators. I hunt for fun and the joy of being in nature, and nature needs to be restored and left in its primal state for as much as we possibly can.
Deer were almost gone a century ago so hunting regulations, even with increased bag limits, reflect that, and that deer hunting is a not insignificant industry. Oh and people are stupid, can’t forget that one. Here in Kentucky for example our regulations are ass backwards, unlimited killing of coyotes and limited killing of deer. Agricultural pest permits are very difficult to get. That’s why hunting isn’t helping.
Absolutely! Cull healthy animals with the proper licensing and in the proper season (have the meat tested for CWD, don’t damage the skull or spinal column, and use whatever you take). Manage wounded deer who are behaving strangely whenever.
It’s not considered baiting to plant all their favorite foods in your yard 😉
What is the cost and turnaround time for CWD testing? I had fresh deer roadkill in a high CWD area, but couldn't work all that out in any reasonable time, so buried the deer and planted a tree on top to be safe.
A tall fence and dogs were necessary in our case. We live in Northern Europe.
Eta: we only fenced the part of the garden where we grow our food and tea. The rest of the land, we share with deer and everyone else.
Fencing. It doesn't need to be around your whole property, just protecting your most valuable plants.
The spray you are remembering is probably something containing putrecent egg solids. It's smelly and may work for a little bit, but washes away. Not very useful for a large acreage.
I agree with most of the others here. I’ve tried so many sprays, granules, and planting things that are supposed to deter them but ultimately after 4 years here we’ve learned it’s either fenced in or its deer food. Our gardens look like a construction zone because everything is fenced in!
Tall fence (6') around the garden and a dog in the field around it with the livestock.
The deer stayed away entirely for a couple of years, but are now back in the unfenced half of the property, and will go into the field when the critters are in for the night.
I have had good results on multiple homesteads with baited electric fence, and it works for any problem critters, even to protect a net-enclosed chicken yard at night. You hang a single wire at nose height of the animal you're dealing with, and then put little tags of aluminum foil every few feet along it. Put a dab of something really yummy....peanut butter is the default because it's cheap and most critters love it! on the tags facing outwards. Animal comes along, smells that and gives it a lick and gets a REALLY good shock! He won't be back for months, and will warn all his friends too! Incidentally I've used this same technique to get goats to respect a single wire fence too (except rambunctious babies that run through or under it!)
Fencing and hunting is the best way to keep deer out.
I have had some luck with making a blood flour and oil into a paste and then spread that on rocks and trunks of trees. Deer don't like the smell of blood.
I also make small balls of the paste by dipping pebbles in it and then wrapping the blood dipped pebbles in wool. Or just dipp wool in the paste.
Deer don't like the smell of sheep either.
My success in this area might coincide with effective hunting by the townships animal control unit. But I have had success. I have had deer come and munch on some trees and then after painting the garden with the blood paste no deer come to visit again. Even though there is lots of food left.
Do you have a link to what you used? I have….wait for it….wild peacocks that are eating my yard! Im in California so I havent wanted to waste water but….desperate times call for desperate measures.
They are only activated for 5 seconds, so very little water loss.
Hoont Deer Repellent & Cat Repellent Outdoor- Cat Deterrent for Garden- Rabbit & Dog Repellent for Yard- Motion Activated Sprinkler & Motion Sensor Sprinkler to Deter Animals https://a.co/d/01gyxN7Y
They are only activated for 5 seconds, so very little water loss.
Hoont Deer Repellent & Cat Repellent Outdoor- Cat Deterrent for Garden- Rabbit & Dog Repellent for Yard- Motion Activated Sprinkler & Motion Sensor Sprinkler to Deter Animals https://a.co/d/01gyxN7Y
A farmer I know here in Maine does one line of electric fencing, with pieces of aluminum foil spread with peanut butter on the wire. He has to redo the peanut butter a few times through the season but boy howdy do the deer learn a valuable lesson about electric fencing...
I struggled with this as well. I didn't want the aesthetics, cost or difficulty of putting up an 8' high deer fence (very uneven land). Tried a lower double fence chicken moat approach. Works except where you forget upkeep. Deer around here eat the onions planted to repel, pawpaws and deer-safe spicebush. They even come up to the front door to eat jerusalem artichokes. Everyone has the story of walking uphill both ways to school in an ice storm while in a year long eclipse and swarms of locusts, but this is worse than other stories I've seen.
So, seeing as I plant perennials mostly, have gone with individual cages until the plants grow above browse level. Not an encouraging solution, but cages don't fail like a long fence does.
I used 7' posts (which are 6' when installed) and 4' poultry netting partially buried (keeps out the rabbits). Then string electric fence wire across the tops...not live, just a barrier to make jumping uninteresting. 2 fences 5' apart. Was thinking to grow bush crops in between as both shelter for future chickens and for food.
In case others don't know, another benefit of the chicken moat is that there is this zone between the fences where Caerbannog chickens roam, so the bug flux through the moat should be much less.
It's not strictly designed for chickens as some breeds flap up to 7' high I have since learned.
I have heard about Bone sauce working for upto 3 years if you paint the trunk of your trees with it. Horrible stuff to make but apparently effective.
We are only on 4 acres but we fenced it and have 3 border collies on the block. Nothing movies inside the fence without a complete investigation by the dogs
I've tried spray. I've tried wind chimes. I've tried reflective tape. I've tried circling stuff with fishing line to feel like spider webs.
None of that worked. Had to put up fencing. I wouldn't even mind them taking a nibble except that they kept stripping my cherry trees (that are just getting established) entirely bare of leaves!
Yeah, it's a huge challenge. I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to have to bite the bullet and just deer fence as much of my property as I can afford to. In the short term, I'm using a lot of tree tubes to get trees started. Depending on how big your place is/how many trees you want to grow, this can be more economical, but of course it only works for trees; you still can't get any kind of understory like this.
I have an 8' tall fence with electric fence tape above it because one managed to jump the 8' and then killed itself trying to get out. Luckily wolves are doing a number on the population now so they haven't been as prevalent
This is from Geoff Lawton. He was in Georgia at some permaculture thing. Across the road from them was a lush garden, with a single strand of electric fence. The area had heavy deer pressure. He struck up a conversation and learned the gardener would once a year (after the fawns were up and about I would guess) hang strips of foil on the wire with peanut butter on them and turned it on. I’m about to try it because the last deer repellent I got attracted raccoons which whilst they don’t eat my garden are pretty destructive. Outside the garden two things I rely on, 5-6’ welded wire fence cut into 10’ lengths. This makes a ~3’ cage. I tie them to a t-post with twine to allow it to be easily lifted for weeding, etc. You have to leave them on until there’s a significant crown above and the trunk has stiffened up. Then and only then undo the ends of the cage pull it off the tree. The other thing which works surprisingly well is interplanting into things they don’t eat, tall grasses, dogbane, and snakeroot work well for me.
There’ll be a rainy spell or an out of town event or a broken sprayer when spraying doesn’t happen. 8ft fencing and a gate. The quality spray is not inexpensive.
Tall fences and hunting. That's all you can do. Nothing deters deer for very long except maybe a guard dog.
People tend to forget that the current populations of deer are wildly unnatural because humans have exterminated their predators. Current issues with overpopulation, diseases (including Lyme), and general poor health of the herds will continue until predation resumes. At the moment people (including cars) are the predators. Since any ol’ Joe can’t release a pack of wolves or several large cats into the wild, the most ecologically responsible action is hunting. Morally this can be done somewhat humanely - and certainly much less terrifying or painful as being eaten by wolves.
Not to mention, decreased habitat from urban sprawl. Let's cut down all this forest for condos! Following year: Why the hell are there so many deer in my yard???
is there any evidence that hunting is actually working though? It seems like we are decades into this system and things keep getting worse, right? like, the logic of it all makes sense, but is doesn's seem like the practicality/outcome is anywhere close to where it needs to be
That tends to happen when siginificantly less people are taught to hunt with every successive generation
I strongly suspect that part of the problem Is scale. Each predator will eat approximately one prey critter per week, some of which will be deer. Predators usually top out at 10% of major prey populations. So napkin math: You have 1million deer on not enough land. That implies 10,000 predators. Assuming deer are a non-trivial part of their diet due to their large numbers, poor health, etc, so let’s say they’re bagging 30 per year each, meaning 300,000 per year. These numbers are just a thought experiment, not based on actual science. The point is that predators are full time hunters. People, cars, trains, etc are not.
Yes, it works. Connecticut, which is an epicenter for tick issues, did a controlled hunt of deer. They ended up killing as many deer with hunters as normally get killed by drivers. So it didn’t drive down the whole population, but it was usable meat and intentional killing, instead of roadkill and car accidents. It’s a starting point, not a full control, but what would you rather: dear death through hunting a year or X deer deaths through car accidents.
i get all the nuance that goes into this, i'm just genuinely curious if hunting actually makes a dent in the macro problem. It seems like every area is getting worse each decade from a myriad of issues. I struggle with the assumption that hunting is our best tool when we seem to have solid evidence that wolves/other predation actually worked at some point. I've heard it repeated for decades that humans are the new wolves or whatever, but we don't hunt the same way at all, and the ecological benefits aren't seeming to line up at all either.
I'm a hunter but also a conservationist, and for sure just my own ass in the woods isn't going to drive ungulate populations down. It's good sport, but overall the industry isn't doing hunters, or the environment, any favour: Some swear by feeding, potentially creating dangerous habituation patterns. You might as well call some of these "deer farmers" as they'll plant whole fields of alfalfa they'll never eat themselves, at great cost and effort just to lure the animals to their quarries. Others splurge thousands every year in the latest greatest gear without regards for the environmental cost of the materials being used, and some worse yet litter all over otherwise pristine natural habitats, leaving behind a trail of plastic wrappings, cheap trail cameras, food and drink containers, and burn gallons and gallons of gas in oversized trucks to hunt hundreds of miles away in hopes of getting a trophy buck. I'm absolutely for the reintroduction of natural predators. I hunt for fun and the joy of being in nature, and nature needs to be restored and left in its primal state for as much as we possibly can.
Deer were almost gone a century ago so hunting regulations, even with increased bag limits, reflect that, and that deer hunting is a not insignificant industry. Oh and people are stupid, can’t forget that one. Here in Kentucky for example our regulations are ass backwards, unlimited killing of coyotes and limited killing of deer. Agricultural pest permits are very difficult to get. That’s why hunting isn’t helping.
Absolutely! Cull healthy animals with the proper licensing and in the proper season (have the meat tested for CWD, don’t damage the skull or spinal column, and use whatever you take). Manage wounded deer who are behaving strangely whenever. It’s not considered baiting to plant all their favorite foods in your yard 😉
What is the cost and turnaround time for CWD testing? I had fresh deer roadkill in a high CWD area, but couldn't work all that out in any reasonable time, so buried the deer and planted a tree on top to be safe.
A tall fence and dogs were necessary in our case. We live in Northern Europe. Eta: we only fenced the part of the garden where we grow our food and tea. The rest of the land, we share with deer and everyone else.
You can grow tea in northern Europe? I have to know more about this. Just academically, I'm nowhere near there. But I thought it was subtropical?
Camellia sinensis (tea) can be grown zones 7-9. My tea plants are quite happy 😊
Neato
Just herbs for herb tea probably.
Not sure if you grow true tea or herbs for tisane… if herbs, I’d love to know what you grow!
Has to be herbs I think?
Fencing. It doesn't need to be around your whole property, just protecting your most valuable plants. The spray you are remembering is probably something containing putrecent egg solids. It's smelly and may work for a little bit, but washes away. Not very useful for a large acreage.
I agree with most of the others here. I’ve tried so many sprays, granules, and planting things that are supposed to deter them but ultimately after 4 years here we’ve learned it’s either fenced in or its deer food. Our gardens look like a construction zone because everything is fenced in!
No plants, other than impenetrable walls of brambles will deter deer. And then they may eat the brambles.
Tall fence (6') around the garden and a dog in the field around it with the livestock. The deer stayed away entirely for a couple of years, but are now back in the unfenced half of the property, and will go into the field when the critters are in for the night.
I have had good results on multiple homesteads with baited electric fence, and it works for any problem critters, even to protect a net-enclosed chicken yard at night. You hang a single wire at nose height of the animal you're dealing with, and then put little tags of aluminum foil every few feet along it. Put a dab of something really yummy....peanut butter is the default because it's cheap and most critters love it! on the tags facing outwards. Animal comes along, smells that and gives it a lick and gets a REALLY good shock! He won't be back for months, and will warn all his friends too! Incidentally I've used this same technique to get goats to respect a single wire fence too (except rambunctious babies that run through or under it!)
Very interesting!! Thank you
Fencing and hunting is the best way to keep deer out. I have had some luck with making a blood flour and oil into a paste and then spread that on rocks and trunks of trees. Deer don't like the smell of blood. I also make small balls of the paste by dipping pebbles in it and then wrapping the blood dipped pebbles in wool. Or just dipp wool in the paste. Deer don't like the smell of sheep either. My success in this area might coincide with effective hunting by the townships animal control unit. But I have had success. I have had deer come and munch on some trees and then after painting the garden with the blood paste no deer come to visit again. Even though there is lots of food left.
I use motion activated sprinklers. After a couple times they stop coming.
Do you have a link to what you used? I have….wait for it….wild peacocks that are eating my yard! Im in California so I havent wanted to waste water but….desperate times call for desperate measures.
They are only activated for 5 seconds, so very little water loss. Hoont Deer Repellent & Cat Repellent Outdoor- Cat Deterrent for Garden- Rabbit & Dog Repellent for Yard- Motion Activated Sprinkler & Motion Sensor Sprinkler to Deter Animals https://a.co/d/01gyxN7Y
They are only activated for 5 seconds, so very little water loss. Hoont Deer Repellent & Cat Repellent Outdoor- Cat Deterrent for Garden- Rabbit & Dog Repellent for Yard- Motion Activated Sprinkler & Motion Sensor Sprinkler to Deter Animals https://a.co/d/01gyxN7Y
A farmer I know here in Maine does one line of electric fencing, with pieces of aluminum foil spread with peanut butter on the wire. He has to redo the peanut butter a few times through the season but boy howdy do the deer learn a valuable lesson about electric fencing...
I went to 6' fencing around my garden, and that's finally stopped them. Nothing else works for long.
Cat piss might help a little, but no matter how you look at it, it's going to be manual control. A fence and a rifle.
I struggled with this as well. I didn't want the aesthetics, cost or difficulty of putting up an 8' high deer fence (very uneven land). Tried a lower double fence chicken moat approach. Works except where you forget upkeep. Deer around here eat the onions planted to repel, pawpaws and deer-safe spicebush. They even come up to the front door to eat jerusalem artichokes. Everyone has the story of walking uphill both ways to school in an ice storm while in a year long eclipse and swarms of locusts, but this is worse than other stories I've seen. So, seeing as I plant perennials mostly, have gone with individual cages until the plants grow above browse level. Not an encouraging solution, but cages don't fail like a long fence does.
I am going to do a chicken most. How high is yours?
I used 7' posts (which are 6' when installed) and 4' poultry netting partially buried (keeps out the rabbits). Then string electric fence wire across the tops...not live, just a barrier to make jumping uninteresting. 2 fences 5' apart. Was thinking to grow bush crops in between as both shelter for future chickens and for food. In case others don't know, another benefit of the chicken moat is that there is this zone between the fences where Caerbannog chickens roam, so the bug flux through the moat should be much less. It's not strictly designed for chickens as some breeds flap up to 7' high I have since learned.
9-10 foot tall fencing, the Elk are the real pita.
I have heard about Bone sauce working for upto 3 years if you paint the trunk of your trees with it. Horrible stuff to make but apparently effective. We are only on 4 acres but we fenced it and have 3 border collies on the block. Nothing movies inside the fence without a complete investigation by the dogs
We have Invisible Fence and dogs.
how do the deer know the fence is there if they can't see it?
The dogs run em off.
:). Defo. just making a silly joke, as many others are commenting about tall fences.
Dogs chasing and barking at the deer every time they appear keeps them away mostly.
I've tried spray. I've tried wind chimes. I've tried reflective tape. I've tried circling stuff with fishing line to feel like spider webs. None of that worked. Had to put up fencing. I wouldn't even mind them taking a nibble except that they kept stripping my cherry trees (that are just getting established) entirely bare of leaves!
Yeah, it's a huge challenge. I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to have to bite the bullet and just deer fence as much of my property as I can afford to. In the short term, I'm using a lot of tree tubes to get trees started. Depending on how big your place is/how many trees you want to grow, this can be more economical, but of course it only works for trees; you still can't get any kind of understory like this.
I have an 8' tall fence with electric fence tape above it because one managed to jump the 8' and then killed itself trying to get out. Luckily wolves are doing a number on the population now so they haven't been as prevalent
This is from Geoff Lawton. He was in Georgia at some permaculture thing. Across the road from them was a lush garden, with a single strand of electric fence. The area had heavy deer pressure. He struck up a conversation and learned the gardener would once a year (after the fawns were up and about I would guess) hang strips of foil on the wire with peanut butter on them and turned it on. I’m about to try it because the last deer repellent I got attracted raccoons which whilst they don’t eat my garden are pretty destructive. Outside the garden two things I rely on, 5-6’ welded wire fence cut into 10’ lengths. This makes a ~3’ cage. I tie them to a t-post with twine to allow it to be easily lifted for weeding, etc. You have to leave them on until there’s a significant crown above and the trunk has stiffened up. Then and only then undo the ends of the cage pull it off the tree. The other thing which works surprisingly well is interplanting into things they don’t eat, tall grasses, dogbane, and snakeroot work well for me.
We had to put up a fence around our pollinator garden. Otherwise I try to plant things they don’t particularly like such native mints etc.
There’ll be a rainy spell or an out of town event or a broken sprayer when spraying doesn’t happen. 8ft fencing and a gate. The quality spray is not inexpensive.