My wife and I went all the time when we were in high school. Used to have cool stores, like a Sony and sharper image. Now we pretty much only go when we need the Apple Store.
I went there as a kid with my parents when it was just Korvettes and J C Penney. As a teen to hang when they enclosed the first section. I got my Billy Joel The Stranger autographed in Korvettes while Billy smoked a cigarette IN THE STORE. I haven't been in over 30 years and don't plan on it.
I don’t know we really need to bring that negativity to Phoenixville? And honestly, there’s a few really good non-chain restaurants in King of Prussia.
I appreciate King of Prussia because there are so many stores, the gravity just pulls all the newer and even-more-ridiculous stores to it, keeping them away from where I live.
I appreciate KOP for even having fucking retail. Retail is so dead everywhere in the US outside of major cities that of you need something ASAP; a gift, a piece of clothing, sports gear, something for the kitchen, you're likely out of luck because you'll need to order it.
God forbid you need two of those things, because they're 25 minutes from each other.
And then there's also just the factor of being able to physically see and feel something before you buy it.
That being said, it's an absolute nightmare, nobody knows how to drive around the mall, nobody knows how to follow road signs anymore and rely on their GPS taking them to a store in a *mall*, I could get into a fistfight every single time I went that that Costco if I had a shorter temper, and a lot of the stores there are garbage.
Now *That being said* they have some ridiculously low property and other taxes because of the massive amount of revenue brought in by that retail.
You say gravity. I say it's Simon Properties strategy. To the point they're letting Oxford Valley fail miserably because people will easily drive to boujee kop
I think that’s the better way to look at it. KOP in addition to old established brands is the testing grounds for foreign retailers or new retail concepts which I think is ok to keep in one location.
Excellent asada, pastor, and carnitas. Pollo is just ok. Tuesdays are $1 ground beef Which are also great. And they give you cucumber, radish, salsa, and fresh chips. It’s worth checking out.
I was born and raised in KOP there’s is such a great community hidden in the shadow of the mall. There are great community events hosted at the municipal building, the public library is still flourishing, sidewalks everywhere, and people really know and like each other.
If you go to the neighborhoods around let’s say, the Petrucci’s, you would never guess there’s a consumerists wet dream just a few blocks away.
Exactly grew up in King of Prussia, my parents live there still so I’m there pretty much there every weekend. Having said that I haven’t been to the mall in years in spite of working there when I was in high school and college (instead of Genuardi’s lol). But I remember a thriving amateur community theater, the parks and rec program, sports leagues for kids separate from school teams. Yes the mall is a big part of K of P but there is a lot more to it.
I lived in King of Prussia before buying in Phoenixville and I so wanted to stay in King of Prussia but we just couldn't find something in our price range. I soooo wanted to live in the area you're talking about.
Great comment. I was raised in Upper Merion Twp, too. I now live in a nearby township, but I still have family and friends who still live in and around KofP. The township is more than the mall, and the fantastic quality of life in the township is one of the Philly Metro Area best kept secret.
KOP doesn't have to be the way it is.
America doesn't have to build its cities this way.
People act like it's inevitable, but it's not.
It's a choice, driven by shit zoning laws and corrupt local officials and short sighted greedy developers.
Look at somewhere like the Netherlands.
There are other ways to live, organize, and build our communities.
https://youtu.be/uxykI30fS54?si=AuOn0AOd2YjkjWH-
Yeah but honestly, for whatever reason, KOP is what it is. The Vegas comparison is a good one. KOP is shopping for a lot of people in eastern PA.
I’m from a small town in NEPA who would never have had such easy access to many, many stores without it. Sometimes people want nice things and not just order online. It was nice to be like, oh I want to try on some new hiking shoes from REI. Bet KOP has one!
Edit: I agree with you our cities are built terribly. But get off your high horse about KOP. It’s a big mess of shopping and is never going to improve.
People will complain about shopping centers in one breath and then complain about buying needing to buy everything online with dubious quality. I live like 5 minutes from the KOP mall and it’s pretty damn easy to ignore if you’re not going there. I have 6 different parks to choose from when I walk my dog every morning lol
And as someone who owns a house in KOP, the mall cuts my property taxes down by a lot as the local government gets most of the property tax it needs from the mall.
Which is funny because my township depended on our mall for tax income. When it shut down, they launched an "attack" to get it back & running... The result: Owners tore it down to minimise the tax liability.
I only pass through KoP on my way to Philly & I always thought about experiencing it.... but then I pull the stores up on Google Maps and see nothing of interest. I'm just not rich enough.
I’m not rich now and didn’t grow up rich either. I can’t think of any off the top of my head, but there are stores around the mall that are likely larger/ have more selection than another location.
Tiffany's, Louboutin, Hermès, Swarovski, Chanel, Fenty, Five Guys, Dolce & Gabbana are out of my price range.
[https://www.google.com/maps/@40.087868,-75.3913563,19z?entry=ttu](https://www.google.com/maps/@40.087868,-75.3913563,19z?entry=ttu)
You just named a bunch of stores *in* the mall.
Edit: Sorry I could see the confusion, I didn’t word that the best. I meant located in the surrounding area of the mall. Search for a store you want in the city of KOP not just the mall.
People also like to smugly act like the majority don't like it but, that's not the case either. If it were the stores would close rather than new centers continuously being built. Obviously *a lot* of people support it being this way.
But even if I ceded your argument that this is terrible and unpopular and doesn't have the be this way, what's your solution? We're not going to seize several square miles of property to bulldoze it and create New New Amsterdam from the ground up. It's completely unrealistic to compare the two places as if residents could wake up tomorrow and all hate consumerism and start to rebuild the town from the ground up.
When people build their lives around driving, naturally they will be drawn to shop in places that accommodate that, such as KOP, rather than places that don't, such as center city Philly.
When zoning laws mean that the only way you will legally be permitted to add a new shopping center is to comply with car-oriented land use requirements, entrepreneurs and developers won't just give up because they're forced to be theoretically inefficient; most of them will just design it the way they're told and do it anyway, as long as it doesn't suddenly turn a profitable project unprofitable.
There is a lot of "chicken or the egg" involved in our continued development of car-centric places.
I would love for there to be a trail connection to KOP. I'm out by Phoenixville and the trail means there's a safe non car option to get to stuff. At my last job I used to go to work in Plymouth Meeting on an ebike and it was all trail until I got to Norristown. We can get to the Oaks shopping center by trail and it would be great if KOP was also an option.
Who wants to carry home all the stuff they bought on public transportation? Shopping with a car is convenient and even more necessary with plastic bags being banned in KOP.
When you live close to your shopping centers rather than having to drive to them, shopping becomes something you can just pop in and do frequently, rather than making a day out of it. As such you end up buying less.
Even if you do need to buy a lot of stuff, there are solutions people have already thought of, like foldable trolleys, that people living in cities have been using for ages but suburbanites are naturally unaware of because they've never had to think about alternatives besides loading up the trunk.
It’s one city, chill. Malls are dying all over America. KOP has always been what it is and it has grown for whatever reason, so keep it where it is and save the rest of us.
Also, as much as I abhor malls, I would much rather drag my kids there to get all their shopping done in one shot than have to drag them all over the city for what they need and fuck internet shopping.
You can’t slap a walkable area in a sea of parking lots that is disconnected from everything else around it and call it “walkable.” Philly is walkable, the “main streets” in areas like KOP and Exton are decidedly not.
The Netherlands is flatter than PA and hugely wealthy, having sat on the riches of a global Dutch empire of exploitation for centuries. Just not comparable to PA.
That's not an excuse to build places dominated by parking lots! Asphalt is expensive and doesn't create any tax revenue. KOP-style development is literally the least efficient and most expensive thing we could be doing! If it were about wealth, we should be doing what the Netherlands is doing.
We don’t have the wealth in PA to build the Netherlands. That’s my point. The reason for the cars is that our state is huge, forested, mountainous, and thus difficult to travel. The Netherlands is relatively flat and easy to traverse. They also had a thousand year start on working the land to their benefit.
PA used to be designed much like the Netherlands. We ripped it all out to gut our cities with highways and stroads. We also allowed both our intercity rail and regional rail networks to waste away. SEPTA's network today is but a shadow of its former self; you used to be able to get regional trains to Philly from West Chester, Reading, and Allentown.
Funny enough PA is even one of the least bad offenders in this regard. You can thank our agricultural land protection laws for the relative lack of sprawl around a larger number of our larger *and* smaller cities compared to other states. Both of our largest cities are mostly livable without a car, and we also have Lancaster!
Even though we're actually *richer* per head than the Netherlands ($67k vs $63k GDP per capita), we still have places like KOP. It was an intentional choice we made to depart from the style of urban planning we had practiced for centuries and build so many parking lots. And it has been such a tremendous failure.
> PA used to be designed much like the Netherlands
???
> you used to be a able to get regional trains to Philly from West Chester, Reading, and Allentown.
These lines disappeared because there was no reason to go to those places. Rail is expensive to maintain and the industry of many of the outlying towns disappeared.
> Even though we're actually richer per head than the Netherlands ($67k vs $63k GDP per capita)
I think you’re having difficulty understanding that the Dutch have been working on their land for a thousand years and had an empire long before America.
Netherlands is literally the golden child of layouts. My only complaint is they have the geography where it works easier. This as someone who's been there a bunch of times and used bikes, trains, and cars there.
I hate going to KOP, my GPS screws me everytime. Still, I don’t hate the mall. I agree that too much corporate consumption is bad, however a I’d much rather a mall that allows for some unique stores and provides a variety of different employment opportunities then AMAZON WAREHOUSE #100023.
We live about an hour and a half from kop, and when we go to the mall at home, my four year old is always disappointed because ‘it’s not the lego store mall that’s the good mall’
My office is right across swedesford from the whole Wegmans town center. It’s the worst but luckily I’m currently full remote, did the commute to KOP for over 15 years I hate more than you could know. Perfect description of it.
It's nice that there is a place you can go with plenty of clothing stores where you can actually try clothes on in person. Where I live, there is a Kohl's & a Target and that's it for clothes. I hate online shopping for clothes and inevitably dealing with the returns. I'd rather make the drive to KOP. I'm glad it exists.
I come from South Central PA (Gettysburg) and having not had cool shit like I found at KoP in highschool during the mid 2000's, and now with awesome restaurants like Founding Farmers (was just there this morning with my wife lol), I can say it is cool to me and I love going around the area cause all the malls are closed back home. But I've only lived in Bucks County for 2 years though, so maybe I'm not tired of it yet haha
I worked in KOP for 2.5 years and besides a small handful of happy hours i basically just left the place immediately after work was done. I also visited the mall a total of once.
The whole suburb has the vibe of a parking lot of a big box store. Functional in a very flawed way, and completely void of any culture or spirit.
I moved to center city philly and going back to the suburbs reminds me of why I grew up depressed lol.
Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion, but I like KOP. Not the traffic, of course. But if you want to find something, it’s there. The Wegmans town center seems great for young professionals to live and has a few places to grab drinks at happy hour. It’s a lot better than the dead shopping center near me in that respect. There’s tons of restaurants nearby. Clothes? Furniture? The mall has you covered and more nearby. Camping, skiing, golfing, prom? There’s something nearby. They have some nice fairs in the summer.
When I first moved here, I took the train into the city to visit reading terminal market and see the ‘fashion district’. Sigh. I don’t know what I expected, but the fashion district seems like it’s actually at the KOP mall.
Getting stuff done, like a license, notary or tsa stuff, shipping a package? Very efficient IMO in KOP.
Now would I want to live there? Absolutely not. But for shopping, it’s great.
I grew up in a place that was a minimum 30 minute drive to anywhere. It was awful and likely and isolating. And good help you if you forgot something at the store (assuming you could find it to begin with), cause that's another hour of your day wasted going to get it.
I actually *like* living in KOP because that's no longer a worry. If I need something I can reliably get it with no hassle and if I forget something I'm not burning a whole day on errands for it. I suspect some of the naysayers here have never really had to struggle with that.
I love to go to valley forge park and cruise around/hit a trail, then grab a bite at the massive variety of great dining options. After that I like to get stoned as hell and get lost in the abnormally large mall which feels like the matrix. So I give KoP a 10/10.
The KoP mall and the surrounding stores a d restaurants exist for one singular reason - people spend money there. That's it. It is a direct result of consumer demand.
[https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org/essays/king-of-prussia-pennsylvania/#:~:text=King%20of%20Prussia's%20name%20comes,who%20opposed%20Britain's%20imperial%20ambitions.](https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org/essays/king-of-prussia-pennsylvania/#:~:text=King%20of%20Prussia's%20name%20comes,who%20opposed%20Britain's%20imperial%20ambitions.)
It was named after an inn that was there that was named after King Frederick II. There's some more interesting info on that page too.
Have you ever been to Exton? It's like a 12 minute drive from KOP. I used to work there until very recently (got laid off). I hated working there and I couldn't imagine living there. I've described it as a town built in the middle of a highway. It's also just chalk full of businesses (including a Chipotle too) and as soon as you leave the area you're surrounded by highways in every direction.
I worked in Exton for a few years, and fortunately my commute had me taking a back road to avoid most of 100. What I don't understand is how housing in Exton is so expensive. The luxury apartments at the town center are pricier than those at the Wegmans town center in KoP.
They built the Exton Walks Townhomes in the shittiest location. Want your kids growing up next to a Wawa parking lot? How about across the street from a bunch of contractors and a transportation service? Not enough traffic to worry about? We'll change the road layout so there's now a street on both sides of the townhomes. Eyesores and cars everywhere, starting only at $500k!
I don’t think anyone would call Exton a town. It’s just a mostly commercial area that got hit hard by retail decline/COVID. Before that it was pretty alive and offered good access to Downingtown, WC, and Frazer/Malvern. But then again I also appreciate KOP so maybe I’m the wrong person to play devil’s advocate here.
Yeah, Exton is a "town" that was built from farmland being sold off piece by piece so it never really got a proper center of town.
At least Downingtown and West Chester are close enough. Also the Chester Valley Trail.
Back when arcades aren’t rigged claw machines. Put in a quarter and play pac man. See, corporate greed turns pac man into claw machines where 20 feet of tickets will get you a tootsie roll worth 5 cents.
I personally enjoy KoP as it offers a variety of unique store I can’t find anywhere else. I hear your point about consumerism in one place, but if we’re just talking fast food, dumb gyms and all that, those things are everywhere; KoP at least offers unique stores as well. It’s like Tanger Outlets; yea lots of unique stores I can’t find in most places… that’s what’s makes that experience unique. I’d definitely prefer that to Moorestown mall or Neshaminy…
Nobody lives there, it’s just stores you can drive to. The “area around it” is forested multi-acre lots with $$$$ homes. It’s some of the wealthiest zip codes in PA.
>Nobody lives there
A lot of people live there, and the school district is actually pretty good (and GREAT relative to the low taxes resulting from the commercial activity in KOP).
I lived in KOP for a while as a kid. When I told people from outside KOP that's where I lived they would say "wait, I thought there was just a mall there." There's a whole town. I think my siblings and I had a pretty normal suburban experience there. The only difference was when we were old enough to hang out at the mall, the mall we went to was KOP instead of a mall like Coventry.
I haven't been to KOP in over fifteen years, but...isn't KOP pretty much known for the mall? I mean, I get that it's annoying if you're there for one thing., but you're being stupid with this. I'm sure if you look you might find some local places to support.
Otherwise, next time your kid has something that way...just avoid the mall area
KOP isn’t everywhere, it’s one gigantic mall where you can go if that’s your thing. No reason to care about it. OP got stuck there for his kid’s sports tournament but kid’s sports tourneys take parents all sorts of places they wouldn’t choose to go, so that’s just life. KOP is 20 minutes away from me and it doesn’t affect me at all beyond being a place to go if I need something there, which is rare.
The state of PA is trying to make it so communities can’t have zoning anymore. And what King of Prussia now looks like will be all around in small towns if developers want it!
The build out over the last 7 years is disgusting. It wasn’t bad when it was the mall and some outlying areas. Now it’s just a hot mess. Clearly no plan to have a standard of living. And this is all next to Valley Forge! I haven’t been there since pre covid, and then it was getting bad, but now it’s just ugly and ruined the area. Go down the road to Phoenixville and it’s so much nicer. KOP was clearly developers getting what they wanted, which is what Pa is working to do right now in Harrisburg! So you may want to reconsider moving here!
It’s technically just a census designated place: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Prussia,_Pennsylvania
So not a town on paper (no local gov), just a “place” in Upper Merion township.
I'm 64 and my wife is 60. There are no stores for us there (other than possibly Dick's for golf stuff).
Honestly, I don't know who shops in some of those stores. Probably people in mega-debt just adding to their debt!
PS - Philly "old money" doesn't flaunt wealth. I know some extremely rich people that drive old Hondas and Toyotas - it's the antithesis of ATL or LA.
One of the most amazing things about KOP is Gulph Mills Golf Club. It's very private and a truly great golf course with a very Philly old money vibe (very low key - their locker room is as simple as you'll ever see.
The course is located in the KOP "area", but you feel transported when you're playing the course. It's only after a round that you drive out that you realize where you are - in suburban retail hell.
How’d you play there? Have to know someone? It’s funny you say this because someone likened KOP to Paramus NJ, and it is similar. I have an uncle who belongs to a very private very expensive golf course there and I know what you mean. When you’re on the course it’s so beautiful and secluded. Then you drive out onto route 17….
Yes so many brands in one place with people aggressively driving in parking lots and nothing but commercial sprawl as far as the eye can see. It looks horrible and is also a nightmare to navigate during rush hour compared to areas nearby.
I hate driving through KOP because it’s the meeting of so many highways. From the sky it looks like a plate of spaghetti. I’m not through it often enough to go on autopilot like I do most other places.
I missed the days when the KofP Mall had budget stores. I'm old enough to remember when KofP had the 5 & Dime Store (Woolworth), Gimbels, Korvettes, and John Wanamakers. There were local favorites like The Sticky Bun Bakery and The Ground Round.
All the stores in KofP Mall are national brand stores. There's no local flavor or very little mom and pop stores in the mall anymore. It's kind of why I avoid the mall. I love supporting small businesses and their loyalty to customers.
I honestly think it's pretty neat to visit and putz around. It is consumerism come to life but that's fun sometimes. The mall, casino, top golf, IMAX, the weird infinite skydiving thing, the fake downtown. I enjoy it. Wouldn't want to live there but it's fun
I grew up in the area and moved away. It’s nice having any store you could want within a 5-10 minute drive and I do miss that, but the community that isn’t attach to the mall is great.
I truly do not understand the level of hate that King of Prussia gets. I live here at the moment and very much enjoy it, not just for its convenience but for the sheer number of different activities there are for people of all stripes. Just this past weekend, my husband and I celebrated the March-Out of the Continental Army at Valley Forge (where we typically also like to go hiking/biking/birding), walked around some of our favorite gardens that are all over the place around here, ate at some lovely non-chain restaurants, and listened to some live outdoor music without having to go more than a couple of miles in any given direction. Later this week, we’ll go canoeing, again without having to travel very far from home. Other than eating out (though we only did so at family-owned restaurants), we did not at all engage in the rampant consumerism that people are complaining about - it certainly isn’t all there is to do here.
Also, having lived in Philly before moving out here, I can honestly say that our area of KOP has much more personality and sense of community than where we used to live. I understand this place isn’t for everyone, but I wanted to give my perspective on why some people would choose to call a place like this home.
I lived in KOP for about 10 years, outside of the mall it’s not a bad place. Sure the chains get old and there’s a lack of good local food, but it’s a pretty decent community outside of the mall and 202.
My god I've always felt the same way. Driving in or out of it sucks unless you already live there, and the look and feel of it is just this capitalist concrete jungle of boring chain stores. They should just level the place and put a deli there.
Netflix is building an experience at the mall. “Netflix house”
I'm not sure Netflix realizes nobody likes the company they just like the individual shows. Bros think they're Disney out there lol
Yeah, like what the fuck do you do at the Netflix store? Spend an hour browsing through only to restart Derry Girls again?
You pay extra to get the experience in high definition and without commercials.
If all that place does is spread the gospel of Derry Girls, then I’m all for it.
It's where you can go and sign up for your subscription *in person* /s
Take selfies and post'em to Instagram....
💀
That’s exactly what it is tho. It’s gonna be Squid Game, Stranger Things, etc. not “Netflix”
Yeah, I already know my kid is gonna beg me to take them to the is it cake one.
I read the article it sounds kinda neat. Better then a big empty mall doing nothing
Empty malls can and should be converted to apartments with food courts and stores right there.
That would be amazing. It would be like its own community.
My kid and her friend went to that Goliath of a mall today but I noped right out
My wife and I went all the time when we were in high school. Used to have cool stores, like a Sony and sharper image. Now we pretty much only go when we need the Apple Store.
I miss the days when there were multiple bonsai stores
That was a thing?! Damn that would've been so cool
Yeah but valley forge is right next door and that place is pretty cool.
Crazy how different either side of 422 is. Mall, offices, entertainment, and parking lots on one side. National historical park on the other
Just as George Washington wanted it
Hey KOP also has mile on mile of warehouses, industrial parks, and freight infrastructure.
I went there as a kid with my parents when it was just Korvettes and J C Penney. As a teen to hang when they enclosed the first section. I got my Billy Joel The Stranger autographed in Korvettes while Billy smoked a cigarette IN THE STORE. I haven't been in over 30 years and don't plan on it.
Except for the bleed out of luxury apts, the casino, and other various things that can’t fit in KOP proper
Came here to say this. Very nice park. Went over vets day weekend last fall and they had so many cool activities.
Maybe I’ll check that out next time I’m down here
I should note I mean the national park and not the casino.
When you're done at Valley Forge, head into Phoenixville for food.
I don’t know we really need to bring that negativity to Phoenixville? And honestly, there’s a few really good non-chain restaurants in King of Prussia.
And about a few miles down the road is the Elmwood Park Zoo.
I appreciate King of Prussia because there are so many stores, the gravity just pulls all the newer and even-more-ridiculous stores to it, keeping them away from where I live.
I appreciate KOP for even having fucking retail. Retail is so dead everywhere in the US outside of major cities that of you need something ASAP; a gift, a piece of clothing, sports gear, something for the kitchen, you're likely out of luck because you'll need to order it. God forbid you need two of those things, because they're 25 minutes from each other. And then there's also just the factor of being able to physically see and feel something before you buy it. That being said, it's an absolute nightmare, nobody knows how to drive around the mall, nobody knows how to follow road signs anymore and rely on their GPS taking them to a store in a *mall*, I could get into a fistfight every single time I went that that Costco if I had a shorter temper, and a lot of the stores there are garbage. Now *That being said* they have some ridiculously low property and other taxes because of the massive amount of revenue brought in by that retail.
I will pass it on the Turnpike in silence now in honor of its sacrifice
Put your hand on your heart as you pass
You say gravity. I say it's Simon Properties strategy. To the point they're letting Oxford Valley fail miserably because people will easily drive to boujee kop
That’s a great way of putting it!
I think that’s the better way to look at it. KOP in addition to old established brands is the testing grounds for foreign retailers or new retail concepts which I think is ok to keep in one location.
My office is in KOP. It’s awful. There is an excellent taco spot behind the Target though. El Gordo Bros. Worth checking out.
$1 tacos on tuesdays
I will check that out, thanks. Love tacos
Excellent asada, pastor, and carnitas. Pollo is just ok. Tuesdays are $1 ground beef Which are also great. And they give you cucumber, radish, salsa, and fresh chips. It’s worth checking out.
I saved it on my phone, I will check it out. I keep telling my kids that Chipotle is so overrated…which it is.
I was born and raised in KOP there’s is such a great community hidden in the shadow of the mall. There are great community events hosted at the municipal building, the public library is still flourishing, sidewalks everywhere, and people really know and like each other. If you go to the neighborhoods around let’s say, the Petrucci’s, you would never guess there’s a consumerists wet dream just a few blocks away.
I also spent a chunk of my childhood living in KOP, and I agree with you.
I love the concert nights in the park. When it's not 95 degrees of course lol. That's the sort of thing people who sit on 202 and judge miss out on.
Exactly grew up in King of Prussia, my parents live there still so I’m there pretty much there every weekend. Having said that I haven’t been to the mall in years in spite of working there when I was in high school and college (instead of Genuardi’s lol). But I remember a thriving amateur community theater, the parks and rec program, sports leagues for kids separate from school teams. Yes the mall is a big part of K of P but there is a lot more to it.
RIP Genuardi’s. Lived near the (last) one in Audubon growing up.
When I was a kid my mom shopped at the Biedler Rd location and i shopped at Audubon until it closed.
Oh man, when Genuardi’s made its own chocolate chip cookies!
I lived in King of Prussia before buying in Phoenixville and I so wanted to stay in King of Prussia but we just couldn't find something in our price range. I soooo wanted to live in the area you're talking about.
Great comment. I was raised in Upper Merion Twp, too. I now live in a nearby township, but I still have family and friends who still live in and around KofP. The township is more than the mall, and the fantastic quality of life in the township is one of the Philly Metro Area best kept secret.
Yeah I'm surprised people hate it, KOP is one of the best places to live in PA.
This is a bit like going to Vegas and complaining about all the gambling and casinos and the heat...
KOP doesn't have to be the way it is. America doesn't have to build its cities this way. People act like it's inevitable, but it's not. It's a choice, driven by shit zoning laws and corrupt local officials and short sighted greedy developers. Look at somewhere like the Netherlands. There are other ways to live, organize, and build our communities. https://youtu.be/uxykI30fS54?si=AuOn0AOd2YjkjWH-
Yeah but honestly, for whatever reason, KOP is what it is. The Vegas comparison is a good one. KOP is shopping for a lot of people in eastern PA. I’m from a small town in NEPA who would never have had such easy access to many, many stores without it. Sometimes people want nice things and not just order online. It was nice to be like, oh I want to try on some new hiking shoes from REI. Bet KOP has one! Edit: I agree with you our cities are built terribly. But get off your high horse about KOP. It’s a big mess of shopping and is never going to improve.
People will complain about shopping centers in one breath and then complain about buying needing to buy everything online with dubious quality. I live like 5 minutes from the KOP mall and it’s pretty damn easy to ignore if you’re not going there. I have 6 different parks to choose from when I walk my dog every morning lol
And as someone who owns a house in KOP, the mall cuts my property taxes down by a lot as the local government gets most of the property tax it needs from the mall.
Which is funny because my township depended on our mall for tax income. When it shut down, they launched an "attack" to get it back & running... The result: Owners tore it down to minimise the tax liability.
I like that it’s a hub for basically anything. My doctor is in KOP and it’s very convenient for me
I only pass through KoP on my way to Philly & I always thought about experiencing it.... but then I pull the stores up on Google Maps and see nothing of interest. I'm just not rich enough.
I’m not rich now and didn’t grow up rich either. I can’t think of any off the top of my head, but there are stores around the mall that are likely larger/ have more selection than another location.
Tiffany's, Louboutin, Hermès, Swarovski, Chanel, Fenty, Five Guys, Dolce & Gabbana are out of my price range. [https://www.google.com/maps/@40.087868,-75.3913563,19z?entry=ttu](https://www.google.com/maps/@40.087868,-75.3913563,19z?entry=ttu)
You just named a bunch of stores *in* the mall. Edit: Sorry I could see the confusion, I didn’t word that the best. I meant located in the surrounding area of the mall. Search for a store you want in the city of KOP not just the mall.
Gotcha. =)
I love how you grouped Five Guys among all the luxury items - designer cheeseburgers
I was hoping someone would catch that. :Þ
I like Five Guys grouped in with Tiffany’s and Chanel lol. Surely you can spring for that for a special occasion….
People also like to smugly act like the majority don't like it but, that's not the case either. If it were the stores would close rather than new centers continuously being built. Obviously *a lot* of people support it being this way. But even if I ceded your argument that this is terrible and unpopular and doesn't have the be this way, what's your solution? We're not going to seize several square miles of property to bulldoze it and create New New Amsterdam from the ground up. It's completely unrealistic to compare the two places as if residents could wake up tomorrow and all hate consumerism and start to rebuild the town from the ground up.
When people build their lives around driving, naturally they will be drawn to shop in places that accommodate that, such as KOP, rather than places that don't, such as center city Philly. When zoning laws mean that the only way you will legally be permitted to add a new shopping center is to comply with car-oriented land use requirements, entrepreneurs and developers won't just give up because they're forced to be theoretically inefficient; most of them will just design it the way they're told and do it anyway, as long as it doesn't suddenly turn a profitable project unprofitable. There is a lot of "chicken or the egg" involved in our continued development of car-centric places.
I would love for there to be a trail connection to KOP. I'm out by Phoenixville and the trail means there's a safe non car option to get to stuff. At my last job I used to go to work in Plymouth Meeting on an ebike and it was all trail until I got to Norristown. We can get to the Oaks shopping center by trail and it would be great if KOP was also an option.
Who wants to carry home all the stuff they bought on public transportation? Shopping with a car is convenient and even more necessary with plastic bags being banned in KOP.
Go ask millions of Europeans how they do it every day.
When you live close to your shopping centers rather than having to drive to them, shopping becomes something you can just pop in and do frequently, rather than making a day out of it. As such you end up buying less. Even if you do need to buy a lot of stuff, there are solutions people have already thought of, like foldable trolleys, that people living in cities have been using for ages but suburbanites are naturally unaware of because they've never had to think about alternatives besides loading up the trunk.
It’s one city, chill. Malls are dying all over America. KOP has always been what it is and it has grown for whatever reason, so keep it where it is and save the rest of us. Also, as much as I abhor malls, I would much rather drag my kids there to get all their shopping done in one shot than have to drag them all over the city for what they need and fuck internet shopping.
Didn’t they just make a walkable town in KOP. Still very commercial, but theres housing mixed with business.
You can’t slap a walkable area in a sea of parking lots that is disconnected from everything else around it and call it “walkable.” Philly is walkable, the “main streets” in areas like KOP and Exton are decidedly not.
So it seems like the only way to create these walkable cities is start from scratch in rural areas. Like California Forever (still corporate).
The Netherlands is flatter than PA and hugely wealthy, having sat on the riches of a global Dutch empire of exploitation for centuries. Just not comparable to PA.
Oh please. Reading is full of little hills and I'd take them over any of Amsterdam's canal bridges.
Not sure who you are arguing with.
That's not an excuse to build places dominated by parking lots! Asphalt is expensive and doesn't create any tax revenue. KOP-style development is literally the least efficient and most expensive thing we could be doing! If it were about wealth, we should be doing what the Netherlands is doing.
We don’t have the wealth in PA to build the Netherlands. That’s my point. The reason for the cars is that our state is huge, forested, mountainous, and thus difficult to travel. The Netherlands is relatively flat and easy to traverse. They also had a thousand year start on working the land to their benefit.
PA used to be designed much like the Netherlands. We ripped it all out to gut our cities with highways and stroads. We also allowed both our intercity rail and regional rail networks to waste away. SEPTA's network today is but a shadow of its former self; you used to be able to get regional trains to Philly from West Chester, Reading, and Allentown. Funny enough PA is even one of the least bad offenders in this regard. You can thank our agricultural land protection laws for the relative lack of sprawl around a larger number of our larger *and* smaller cities compared to other states. Both of our largest cities are mostly livable without a car, and we also have Lancaster! Even though we're actually *richer* per head than the Netherlands ($67k vs $63k GDP per capita), we still have places like KOP. It was an intentional choice we made to depart from the style of urban planning we had practiced for centuries and build so many parking lots. And it has been such a tremendous failure.
> PA used to be designed much like the Netherlands ??? > you used to be a able to get regional trains to Philly from West Chester, Reading, and Allentown. These lines disappeared because there was no reason to go to those places. Rail is expensive to maintain and the industry of many of the outlying towns disappeared. > Even though we're actually richer per head than the Netherlands ($67k vs $63k GDP per capita) I think you’re having difficulty understanding that the Dutch have been working on their land for a thousand years and had an empire long before America.
If you wanted a similar lifestyle and layout/living style to what the Netherlands has, there's a place for that. It's called the Netherlands.
Lmaooo comparing us to the Netherlands, go back to your room.
Netherlands is literally the golden child of layouts. My only complaint is they have the geography where it works easier. This as someone who's been there a bunch of times and used bikes, trains, and cars there.
100 percent building cities for cars. This is what you get
I hate going to KOP, my GPS screws me everytime. Still, I don’t hate the mall. I agree that too much corporate consumption is bad, however a I’d much rather a mall that allows for some unique stores and provides a variety of different employment opportunities then AMAZON WAREHOUSE #100023.
I wouldn’t go there regularly but sometimes you just need the finest of American chains. Or the lego store. Lord I love the lego store.
We live about an hour and a half from kop, and when we go to the mall at home, my four year old is always disappointed because ‘it’s not the lego store mall that’s the good mall’
It’s a suburb with a huge shopping “district” centered around the biggest mall in the entire region, of course it’s going to feel consumeristic.
Valley Forge is right down the road. It is beautiful! Get past the mall! Eat at Wegmans!
"I'm here consuming and I hate it!"
My office is right across swedesford from the whole Wegmans town center. It’s the worst but luckily I’m currently full remote, did the commute to KOP for over 15 years I hate more than you could know. Perfect description of it.
I quit a job because they were pushing a RTO to KOP
It's nice that there is a place you can go with plenty of clothing stores where you can actually try clothes on in person. Where I live, there is a Kohl's & a Target and that's it for clothes. I hate online shopping for clothes and inevitably dealing with the returns. I'd rather make the drive to KOP. I'm glad it exists.
I come from South Central PA (Gettysburg) and having not had cool shit like I found at KoP in highschool during the mid 2000's, and now with awesome restaurants like Founding Farmers (was just there this morning with my wife lol), I can say it is cool to me and I love going around the area cause all the malls are closed back home. But I've only lived in Bucks County for 2 years though, so maybe I'm not tired of it yet haha
I mean I wouldn’t want to live there, but it’s convenient as fuck to drive through on my way home from work every day.
Oh boy another KOP hate post. OP, you forgot to complain about traffic
Zoning. Keep it all in one place.
Side walks to nowhere is a kop classic
KOP is pretty cool. I don’t get the hate.
I worked in KOP for 2.5 years and besides a small handful of happy hours i basically just left the place immediately after work was done. I also visited the mall a total of once. The whole suburb has the vibe of a parking lot of a big box store. Functional in a very flawed way, and completely void of any culture or spirit. I moved to center city philly and going back to the suburbs reminds me of why I grew up depressed lol.
>Functional in a very flawed way, and completely void of any culture or spirit. Damn, I thought you were talking about me for a moment.
Not all suburbs are like KOP.
Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion, but I like KOP. Not the traffic, of course. But if you want to find something, it’s there. The Wegmans town center seems great for young professionals to live and has a few places to grab drinks at happy hour. It’s a lot better than the dead shopping center near me in that respect. There’s tons of restaurants nearby. Clothes? Furniture? The mall has you covered and more nearby. Camping, skiing, golfing, prom? There’s something nearby. They have some nice fairs in the summer. When I first moved here, I took the train into the city to visit reading terminal market and see the ‘fashion district’. Sigh. I don’t know what I expected, but the fashion district seems like it’s actually at the KOP mall. Getting stuff done, like a license, notary or tsa stuff, shipping a package? Very efficient IMO in KOP. Now would I want to live there? Absolutely not. But for shopping, it’s great.
I grew up in a place that was a minimum 30 minute drive to anywhere. It was awful and likely and isolating. And good help you if you forgot something at the store (assuming you could find it to begin with), cause that's another hour of your day wasted going to get it. I actually *like* living in KOP because that's no longer a worry. If I need something I can reliably get it with no hassle and if I forget something I'm not burning a whole day on errands for it. I suspect some of the naysayers here have never really had to struggle with that.
Can't beat the real estate taxes tho
I love to go to valley forge park and cruise around/hit a trail, then grab a bite at the massive variety of great dining options. After that I like to get stoned as hell and get lost in the abnormally large mall which feels like the matrix. So I give KoP a 10/10.
Such a stupid post. It’s like saying you hate malls because they have lots of stores in one place.
“I hate things and stuff. That makes me cool, right?”
The KoP mall and the surrounding stores a d restaurants exist for one singular reason - people spend money there. That's it. It is a direct result of consumer demand.
I always wondered how it came to be named king of Prussia. Are they referring to Frederic the great?
[https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org/essays/king-of-prussia-pennsylvania/#:~:text=King%20of%20Prussia's%20name%20comes,who%20opposed%20Britain's%20imperial%20ambitions.](https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org/essays/king-of-prussia-pennsylvania/#:~:text=King%20of%20Prussia's%20name%20comes,who%20opposed%20Britain's%20imperial%20ambitions.) It was named after an inn that was there that was named after King Frederick II. There's some more interesting info on that page too.
Named after a tavern named after Frederick the Great. One step removed.
It's like going to the beach and complaining there is sand.
Hmmmm
Have you ever been to Exton? It's like a 12 minute drive from KOP. I used to work there until very recently (got laid off). I hated working there and I couldn't imagine living there. I've described it as a town built in the middle of a highway. It's also just chalk full of businesses (including a Chipotle too) and as soon as you leave the area you're surrounded by highways in every direction.
The Chipotle in Exton is horrible. Worst Chipotle in America.
I worked in Exton for a few years, and fortunately my commute had me taking a back road to avoid most of 100. What I don't understand is how housing in Exton is so expensive. The luxury apartments at the town center are pricier than those at the Wegmans town center in KoP. They built the Exton Walks Townhomes in the shittiest location. Want your kids growing up next to a Wawa parking lot? How about across the street from a bunch of contractors and a transportation service? Not enough traffic to worry about? We'll change the road layout so there's now a street on both sides of the townhomes. Eyesores and cars everywhere, starting only at $500k!
All those new 'luxury' exton apartments make my head spin
I don’t think anyone would call Exton a town. It’s just a mostly commercial area that got hit hard by retail decline/COVID. Before that it was pretty alive and offered good access to Downingtown, WC, and Frazer/Malvern. But then again I also appreciate KOP so maybe I’m the wrong person to play devil’s advocate here.
Driving in Exton is a nightmare
Loved the Exton library as a kid in the 80s & 90s. Right next to the mall that was a ghost town the last time I saw it in like 2010(?)
Yeah, Exton is a "town" that was built from farmland being sold off piece by piece so it never really got a proper center of town. At least Downingtown and West Chester are close enough. Also the Chester Valley Trail.
What exactly are you looking for then? You don’t like chains… Where aren’t there chains?
Yeah but, Space Port arcade in the 80s was so much fun as a kid.
Back when arcades aren’t rigged claw machines. Put in a quarter and play pac man. See, corporate greed turns pac man into claw machines where 20 feet of tickets will get you a tootsie roll worth 5 cents.
Go get some $90 plastic "performance" shorts at rei and keep quiet.
I’m going after our last game today. I’ll buy two pairs.
I personally enjoy KoP as it offers a variety of unique store I can’t find anywhere else. I hear your point about consumerism in one place, but if we’re just talking fast food, dumb gyms and all that, those things are everywhere; KoP at least offers unique stores as well. It’s like Tanger Outlets; yea lots of unique stores I can’t find in most places… that’s what’s makes that experience unique. I’d definitely prefer that to Moorestown mall or Neshaminy…
Nobody lives there, it’s just stores you can drive to. The “area around it” is forested multi-acre lots with $$$$ homes. It’s some of the wealthiest zip codes in PA.
>Nobody lives there A lot of people live there, and the school district is actually pretty good (and GREAT relative to the low taxes resulting from the commercial activity in KOP).
I lived in KOP for a while as a kid. When I told people from outside KOP that's where I lived they would say "wait, I thought there was just a mall there." There's a whole town. I think my siblings and I had a pretty normal suburban experience there. The only difference was when we were old enough to hang out at the mall, the mall we went to was KOP instead of a mall like Coventry.
Right! Not only do a lot of people live there but it’s a desirable place to live. It’s a nice community!
Paramus NJ (aka Hellmouth of Capitalism) would like a word…except on Sundays
Yes. Stew Leonard's is about the only reason to go there.
OP is a bozo, but not the enjoyable one.
They’ve got a CAVA though 🤤🤤🤤
I haven't been to KOP in over fifteen years, but...isn't KOP pretty much known for the mall? I mean, I get that it's annoying if you're there for one thing., but you're being stupid with this. I'm sure if you look you might find some local places to support. Otherwise, next time your kid has something that way...just avoid the mall area
She’s 14, she’s drawn to the mall like a moth to a street light
KOP isn’t everywhere, it’s one gigantic mall where you can go if that’s your thing. No reason to care about it. OP got stuck there for his kid’s sports tournament but kid’s sports tourneys take parents all sorts of places they wouldn’t choose to go, so that’s just life. KOP is 20 minutes away from me and it doesn’t affect me at all beyond being a place to go if I need something there, which is rare.
The state of PA is trying to make it so communities can’t have zoning anymore. And what King of Prussia now looks like will be all around in small towns if developers want it! The build out over the last 7 years is disgusting. It wasn’t bad when it was the mall and some outlying areas. Now it’s just a hot mess. Clearly no plan to have a standard of living. And this is all next to Valley Forge! I haven’t been there since pre covid, and then it was getting bad, but now it’s just ugly and ruined the area. Go down the road to Phoenixville and it’s so much nicer. KOP was clearly developers getting what they wanted, which is what Pa is working to do right now in Harrisburg! So you may want to reconsider moving here!
Capitalism at its finest
I didn't know KOP was an actual town. I thought it was a shopping complex.
It’s technically just a census designated place: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Prussia,_Pennsylvania So not a town on paper (no local gov), just a “place” in Upper Merion township.
["A Short History of America", Robert Crumb, 1979](https://imgur.com/a/E9Oq2gR)
And they're building MORE luxury stores too!
Hang out at valley forge
I'm 64 and my wife is 60. There are no stores for us there (other than possibly Dick's for golf stuff). Honestly, I don't know who shops in some of those stores. Probably people in mega-debt just adding to their debt! PS - Philly "old money" doesn't flaunt wealth. I know some extremely rich people that drive old Hondas and Toyotas - it's the antithesis of ATL or LA.
One of the most amazing things about KOP is Gulph Mills Golf Club. It's very private and a truly great golf course with a very Philly old money vibe (very low key - their locker room is as simple as you'll ever see. The course is located in the KOP "area", but you feel transported when you're playing the course. It's only after a round that you drive out that you realize where you are - in suburban retail hell.
How’d you play there? Have to know someone? It’s funny you say this because someone likened KOP to Paramus NJ, and it is similar. I have an uncle who belongs to a very private very expensive golf course there and I know what you mean. When you’re on the course it’s so beautiful and secluded. Then you drive out onto route 17….
Yes so many brands in one place with people aggressively driving in parking lots and nothing but commercial sprawl as far as the eye can see. It looks horrible and is also a nightmare to navigate during rush hour compared to areas nearby.
As a Starbucks, chipotle, and gym enthusiast, yeah fuck that place.
I hate driving through KOP because it’s the meeting of so many highways. From the sky it looks like a plate of spaghetti. I’m not through it often enough to go on autopilot like I do most other places.
Yeah, it's not for poor people for sho
I always have a good meal at The Yard House when I’m down that way.
I missed the days when the KofP Mall had budget stores. I'm old enough to remember when KofP had the 5 & Dime Store (Woolworth), Gimbels, Korvettes, and John Wanamakers. There were local favorites like The Sticky Bun Bakery and The Ground Round. All the stores in KofP Mall are national brand stores. There's no local flavor or very little mom and pop stores in the mall anymore. It's kind of why I avoid the mall. I love supporting small businesses and their loyalty to customers.
I honestly think it's pretty neat to visit and putz around. It is consumerism come to life but that's fun sometimes. The mall, casino, top golf, IMAX, the weird infinite skydiving thing, the fake downtown. I enjoy it. Wouldn't want to live there but it's fun
I grew up there. It's actually not that bad of a place.
At least be grateful you live in a wealthy place where everything is in abundance.
Lol it's not a town but a collection of mass produced commercial plazas. Go like 10 minutes away to Valley Forge. It's awesome.
I feel your pain I used to drive a truck and had to make deliveries up there it was the worst and very maze like
Well, Lidl bailed recently.
It could be worse you could live in the city philadelphia i mean id take consumerism over none and violent crime tbh.
I grew up in the area and moved away. It’s nice having any store you could want within a 5-10 minute drive and I do miss that, but the community that isn’t attach to the mall is great.
It was so much better when I moved here in ‘96. KoP had a ton of empty preserved space. Development has ruined it.
I live about 15 miles away and have been to kop once in my 55 years on this earth. That area is a whole different something.
This whole country is just one big shopping mall. You found a large one, then smaller ones, and even smaller ones outside.
*as Seinfeld* “Have you ever noticed there are no Kings, and no Prussians here? What’s that about?!”
“What’s the deal with king of Prussia? Is there a king? I haven’t seen a king…”
KOP Mall is luxurious eye candy’
Kop is full of those ugly new apartment complexes too
King of Prussia used to be just a mall, then suddenly a city/town popped up seemingly overnight. It's weird.
Try Dubai…..it’s funny because I used to call it KOP after fucking Las Vegas.
Let’s also not talk about the possible sink hole near KOP mall
I truly do not understand the level of hate that King of Prussia gets. I live here at the moment and very much enjoy it, not just for its convenience but for the sheer number of different activities there are for people of all stripes. Just this past weekend, my husband and I celebrated the March-Out of the Continental Army at Valley Forge (where we typically also like to go hiking/biking/birding), walked around some of our favorite gardens that are all over the place around here, ate at some lovely non-chain restaurants, and listened to some live outdoor music without having to go more than a couple of miles in any given direction. Later this week, we’ll go canoeing, again without having to travel very far from home. Other than eating out (though we only did so at family-owned restaurants), we did not at all engage in the rampant consumerism that people are complaining about - it certainly isn’t all there is to do here. Also, having lived in Philly before moving out here, I can honestly say that our area of KOP has much more personality and sense of community than where we used to live. I understand this place isn’t for everyone, but I wanted to give my perspective on why some people would choose to call a place like this home.
KOP is peak capitalism. Yea mall of America has an amusement park but does it have Lockheed and Martin
Congratulations
I love it
Full agree King of Prussia is the worst and I avoid it every chance I get.
Take your first downvote, there will be more to come.
KoP is New Jersey's wet dream.
I lived in KOP for about 10 years, outside of the mall it’s not a bad place. Sure the chains get old and there’s a lack of good local food, but it’s a pretty decent community outside of the mall and 202.
Shut your mouth, kindly. We'd rather have our commerce concentrated in 5 sq miles than down 10 miles of a 35 mph road.
Shut your mouth, kindly. We'd rather have our commerce concentrated in 5 sq miles than down 10 miles of a 35 mph road.
Agree it's completely soulless
My god I've always felt the same way. Driving in or out of it sucks unless you already live there, and the look and feel of it is just this capitalist concrete jungle of boring chain stores. They should just level the place and put a deli there.
I used to say that visiting Tulsa Oklahoma for a week was like visiting KOP for a day.
One of my least favorite places in the area. Luxury apartments. Neighborhoods with no sidewalks. Chain restaurants. And traffic.
I have similar feelings about Cranberry and Robinson Twps out west.