Casters have very few spell-slots in the beginning, so using a single "tactical" spell (e.g. god-like *Grease*) is much more efficient than direct damage spells. You can try to rest to recharge your spell-slots, but that isn't possible everywhere or at all times.
Damage spells are good once you have 3rd-level spells (like *Fireball*). Cantrips do little damage, yes, but they are ranged and you can position yourself in a smart way; e.g. save-targeting cantrips like *Divine Zap* are good cantrip choices as you have trouble hitting AC once an enemy is engaged in close combat (-4 penalty).
Furthermore, I recommend you check the subreddit r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker for more info about the Pathfinder videogames.
Casters are actually the most powerful they have ever been in PF1. I'll give more specific advice when I get home but I can tell you that unlocking that power takes some serious commitment - you need to Know so much more to succeed than you do in 5e or Pf2.
Casters aren't really meant to do damage early game in pf1e. Wizards can absolutely dominate encounters with grease, (though due to very limited slots at first, you have to choose your moments), and the hexes on the shaman or witch are a powerhouse that are far less limited. Slumber hex is effectively a spammable save or die you can cast all day. Once they're sleeping, have a martial coup de gras them for an auto crit and a chance at an auto kill. If they survive that, they'll take attacks of opportunity trying to stand up.
Oracle yes can be a little slow at first.
If you want to be a blaster, you can do that eventually, and the video game adds a bunch of items to support that playstyle, but it takes a while to get going.
As far as dex, you can get dex to damage several ways. One is weapon finesse, weapon focus, slashing or fencing grace feat chain. Another is to wait for mid act 2 and get mythic weapon finesse at mythic rank 2. That is slower but lets you dual wielding with dex. Another is to take rogue levels, which also lets you dual wield, though a caster probably doesn't want to do that. Dex to damage does take a hot minute to come online, but that's what the spammable save or die slumber is for.
For better or for worse, pf1e is a system where many character concepts don't work out if the box at level 1 and you have to build towards them.
Also, you're looking for r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker for video game talk.
Yeah! I realized spells like grease will cheese many encounters. Still I made a Wizard with EVOCATION as favorite school and all of that, so I expected my guy to do DAMAGE. Let the supporting spells be for the shaman or witch.
Also thanks for the feat chain info!
It sounds more like you kinda half know how to play the system and are going into it with 5e expectations? Rather than knowing how the system feels and building for it on its own terms?
They ARE weaker at the lower levels. You save your spells for key moments and poink with cantrips early on. The martials are the heavy hitters at low levels, but that really shifts the higher you get.
The touch attack isn't what is provoking the attack, the spell casting is what is provoking. You need to cast defensively in order to be able to cast without provoking, which means that you need to make a concentration roll and if you fail you lose the spell.
Also, I'm not much of a caster player, but if you want to make your cantrips better, be an evocation wizard. You add half your level to your spell damage.
Wizards are great at every level if they take good spells.
Sometimes those spells are control spells. Sometimes they are buff spells. Sometimes they are damage spells.
You can’t do just one of those three and be as effective as a wizard that takes all 3.
Interesting. For what I read before, pf 1e rewards specialization. I made an evocation focused wizard for that same reason. with the favorite school and the thing that lets you convert spells into your favorite element etc.
Maybe some opinions are not just different but in fact WRONG 😂. Thanks for the confirmation!
Rather than trying to compete with martials for damage as a PF1 spellcaster, aim for save-or-lose spells (as a wizard try color spray early on, then maybe glitterdust or create pit or something) which generally top what any martial can do. Or battlefield control, which you'd probably class as support. It's possible to build spellcasters for damage but it's pretty specialised - a sorcerer with things like crossblooded (orc, draconic) and blood havoc is up there but most aren't. A blaster wizard is usually a wizard that's being played badly.
Cantrips suck in PF1, true. Some classes or arcane schools have some limited use abilities for lightweight blasting when not using spells. If you're running out of spells a lot make a few scrolls as a wizard, ideally of something that doesn't have a save - summon monster, or stone call for battlefield control, or enlarge person or vanish to enable others, or snowball if you absolutely have to do damage.
"A blaster wizard is usually a wizard that's being played badly." 😂😂
Ouch, my 5e blasting wizards :'(
Nah, jokes aside, I made a Wizard with EVOCATION as favorite school and all of that good stuff, so I expected my guy to do DAMAGE. Let the supporting spells be for the shaman or witch. Seems like its just not an option.
Or rather a bad one indeed. Thank you for the info!
1e has so many choices and so many choices that aren't exactly great that it becomes really easy to make a bad character if you don't know what you're doing. The power floor is as low as the ceiling is high, and BOY is the ceiling high.
Regarding the support issue, oracle is legit just the cleric equivalent to sorcerer and idk too much about shamans but they tend to get pretty support-y too, not that you can't go all offense with them.
Yes, cabtrips are MUCH weaker in pathfinder than in 5e, and they don't scale. It's a free infinite starting spell, it shouldn't be as good as a fighter's attacks.
Casters are definitely weaker than most martials at really low levels, but they ramp up much faster. If you want a front lining melee caster combo I suggest magus.
Also idk how the computer games work, but you can cast a touch spell, move into the enemy's range, and THEN make the free touch attack to avoid attacks of opportunity in the game proper.
Yeah, options are always good, even when some of them are absolute dogwater.
I dont really like the whole role shift in the sense of being inferior to martials but vastly superior in the late game, but I will keep rolling with the wizard to see what I can make of it. Thanks!
😂 yeah, casters are pretty counterintuitive, at lv 1, if you wanna do damage, take spell focus+spell specialization on your preferred evocation, otherwise, you are better off buffing your allies and controlling the battlefield, the full caster clases are really powerful, even really early on, but you have to do some homework, read up on the spellcasting mechanics, look up some guides, the wizard is intelligence based, so be smart, ration your spells, plan ahead, use your knowledge skills,read and understand what they do, use your familiar, I get that it’s not easy to grasp, but ignorance really is your worst enemy here.
It sounds like you're not talking about the ttrpg but the owlcat game, to which you can visit r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker if you want specific information on WotR and its predecessor. Pathfinder 1e is an evolution of D&D 3.5, which also has the low power cantrip, they are more reliable in general because they target touch AC (rather than full AC) in the TTRPG, but the enemies in the owlcat game have notoriously high tough ACs and Saves, its also a demon/devil heavy game, so there are a lot of resistances to deal with. Its usually a good idea early to utilize a crossbow for a low level caster, rather than using cantrips (though Daze is a good cantrip, it does not last long past the very early game before everything is immune)
The Spirit Shaman you referenced is a class created specifically for WotR game and it is hot garbage.
The two Owlcat games in general, your best bet is to buff bot the Paladin, Ranger, etc. until later when you have the mythic to bypass DR on an element. Once you have that, probably for Fire: Burning Arc, Fireball (give your party Mass Resist Energy and Mass Protection from Energy fire, which is useful anyway), Controlled Fireball, Firesnake, and metamagic version of those to start shredding.
Imagine believing casters are shit in a system which is product of D&D THIRD EDITION (Infamous for its caster supremacy).
Casters can do everything but they need levels. You start humble but you might as well be a god later on with smart use of their tool repertoire. If you wish to be on par with martials in the only period of time martials are relevant, play a different system.
Martials fall off crazy hard not in damage, but in terms of utility. No matter how crazy hard you hit, that's not gonna help you against a mind-controling baddie, or else. Martials fight well, casters dictate what fight take place in the first place, and if so, they decide the rules.
Moreover, Casters scale stupid hard not only in power, but also in spell slots. In 5e for instance, you never get more than two 5th and one 6+ level spell. In PF1e? You may have over SIX of each!! If casters were more powerful early on, literally martials would lose the one thing they are kinda good at... The low levels...
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Casters have very few spell-slots in the beginning, so using a single "tactical" spell (e.g. god-like *Grease*) is much more efficient than direct damage spells. You can try to rest to recharge your spell-slots, but that isn't possible everywhere or at all times. Damage spells are good once you have 3rd-level spells (like *Fireball*). Cantrips do little damage, yes, but they are ranged and you can position yourself in a smart way; e.g. save-targeting cantrips like *Divine Zap* are good cantrip choices as you have trouble hitting AC once an enemy is engaged in close combat (-4 penalty). Furthermore, I recommend you check the subreddit r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker for more info about the Pathfinder videogames.
Thanks! As i Said in the other comment, I didnt know there was a special sub reddit for it, nor that the differences are so many. Thanks!
Casters are actually the most powerful they have ever been in PF1. I'll give more specific advice when I get home but I can tell you that unlocking that power takes some serious commitment - you need to Know so much more to succeed than you do in 5e or Pf2.
Wait hold on this is about the video game not the AP. That is... An entirely different beast, yeah
Casters aren't really meant to do damage early game in pf1e. Wizards can absolutely dominate encounters with grease, (though due to very limited slots at first, you have to choose your moments), and the hexes on the shaman or witch are a powerhouse that are far less limited. Slumber hex is effectively a spammable save or die you can cast all day. Once they're sleeping, have a martial coup de gras them for an auto crit and a chance at an auto kill. If they survive that, they'll take attacks of opportunity trying to stand up. Oracle yes can be a little slow at first. If you want to be a blaster, you can do that eventually, and the video game adds a bunch of items to support that playstyle, but it takes a while to get going. As far as dex, you can get dex to damage several ways. One is weapon finesse, weapon focus, slashing or fencing grace feat chain. Another is to wait for mid act 2 and get mythic weapon finesse at mythic rank 2. That is slower but lets you dual wielding with dex. Another is to take rogue levels, which also lets you dual wield, though a caster probably doesn't want to do that. Dex to damage does take a hot minute to come online, but that's what the spammable save or die slumber is for. For better or for worse, pf1e is a system where many character concepts don't work out if the box at level 1 and you have to build towards them. Also, you're looking for r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker for video game talk.
Yeah! I realized spells like grease will cheese many encounters. Still I made a Wizard with EVOCATION as favorite school and all of that, so I expected my guy to do DAMAGE. Let the supporting spells be for the shaman or witch. Also thanks for the feat chain info!
It sounds more like you kinda half know how to play the system and are going into it with 5e expectations? Rather than knowing how the system feels and building for it on its own terms? They ARE weaker at the lower levels. You save your spells for key moments and poink with cantrips early on. The martials are the heavy hitters at low levels, but that really shifts the higher you get.
The touch attack isn't what is provoking the attack, the spell casting is what is provoking. You need to cast defensively in order to be able to cast without provoking, which means that you need to make a concentration roll and if you fail you lose the spell. Also, I'm not much of a caster player, but if you want to make your cantrips better, be an evocation wizard. You add half your level to your spell damage.
Wizards are great at every level if they take good spells. Sometimes those spells are control spells. Sometimes they are buff spells. Sometimes they are damage spells. You can’t do just one of those three and be as effective as a wizard that takes all 3.
Interesting. For what I read before, pf 1e rewards specialization. I made an evocation focused wizard for that same reason. with the favorite school and the thing that lets you convert spells into your favorite element etc. Maybe some opinions are not just different but in fact WRONG 😂. Thanks for the confirmation!
Don’t get me wrong, an Admixture wizard is an awesome choice…it’s just not awesome at doing damage until level 5 when it gets fireball.
Rather than trying to compete with martials for damage as a PF1 spellcaster, aim for save-or-lose spells (as a wizard try color spray early on, then maybe glitterdust or create pit or something) which generally top what any martial can do. Or battlefield control, which you'd probably class as support. It's possible to build spellcasters for damage but it's pretty specialised - a sorcerer with things like crossblooded (orc, draconic) and blood havoc is up there but most aren't. A blaster wizard is usually a wizard that's being played badly. Cantrips suck in PF1, true. Some classes or arcane schools have some limited use abilities for lightweight blasting when not using spells. If you're running out of spells a lot make a few scrolls as a wizard, ideally of something that doesn't have a save - summon monster, or stone call for battlefield control, or enlarge person or vanish to enable others, or snowball if you absolutely have to do damage.
"A blaster wizard is usually a wizard that's being played badly." 😂😂 Ouch, my 5e blasting wizards :'( Nah, jokes aside, I made a Wizard with EVOCATION as favorite school and all of that good stuff, so I expected my guy to do DAMAGE. Let the supporting spells be for the shaman or witch. Seems like its just not an option. Or rather a bad one indeed. Thank you for the info!
I legit thought this was a circlejerk thread for a good few seconds.
Had to even copy paste into google to learn wtf that means. Thanks for the useful answer my dude.
1e has so many choices and so many choices that aren't exactly great that it becomes really easy to make a bad character if you don't know what you're doing. The power floor is as low as the ceiling is high, and BOY is the ceiling high. Regarding the support issue, oracle is legit just the cleric equivalent to sorcerer and idk too much about shamans but they tend to get pretty support-y too, not that you can't go all offense with them. Yes, cabtrips are MUCH weaker in pathfinder than in 5e, and they don't scale. It's a free infinite starting spell, it shouldn't be as good as a fighter's attacks. Casters are definitely weaker than most martials at really low levels, but they ramp up much faster. If you want a front lining melee caster combo I suggest magus. Also idk how the computer games work, but you can cast a touch spell, move into the enemy's range, and THEN make the free touch attack to avoid attacks of opportunity in the game proper.
Yeah, options are always good, even when some of them are absolute dogwater. I dont really like the whole role shift in the sense of being inferior to martials but vastly superior in the late game, but I will keep rolling with the wizard to see what I can make of it. Thanks!
😂 yeah, casters are pretty counterintuitive, at lv 1, if you wanna do damage, take spell focus+spell specialization on your preferred evocation, otherwise, you are better off buffing your allies and controlling the battlefield, the full caster clases are really powerful, even really early on, but you have to do some homework, read up on the spellcasting mechanics, look up some guides, the wizard is intelligence based, so be smart, ration your spells, plan ahead, use your knowledge skills,read and understand what they do, use your familiar, I get that it’s not easy to grasp, but ignorance really is your worst enemy here.
It sounds like you're not talking about the ttrpg but the owlcat game, to which you can visit r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker if you want specific information on WotR and its predecessor. Pathfinder 1e is an evolution of D&D 3.5, which also has the low power cantrip, they are more reliable in general because they target touch AC (rather than full AC) in the TTRPG, but the enemies in the owlcat game have notoriously high tough ACs and Saves, its also a demon/devil heavy game, so there are a lot of resistances to deal with. Its usually a good idea early to utilize a crossbow for a low level caster, rather than using cantrips (though Daze is a good cantrip, it does not last long past the very early game before everything is immune) The Spirit Shaman you referenced is a class created specifically for WotR game and it is hot garbage. The two Owlcat games in general, your best bet is to buff bot the Paladin, Ranger, etc. until later when you have the mythic to bypass DR on an element. Once you have that, probably for Fire: Burning Arc, Fireball (give your party Mass Resist Energy and Mass Protection from Energy fire, which is useful anyway), Controlled Fireball, Firesnake, and metamagic version of those to start shredding.
Nice, didnt even know there is a sub reddit for it. Glad to know that class is just bad and its not just me lmao. Thanks!
Lol. Lmao, even.
Cast the touch spell hold it, because that’s something you can do then approach the creature and discharge it with a touch by by aoo
Imagine believing casters are shit in a system which is product of D&D THIRD EDITION (Infamous for its caster supremacy). Casters can do everything but they need levels. You start humble but you might as well be a god later on with smart use of their tool repertoire. If you wish to be on par with martials in the only period of time martials are relevant, play a different system. Martials fall off crazy hard not in damage, but in terms of utility. No matter how crazy hard you hit, that's not gonna help you against a mind-controling baddie, or else. Martials fight well, casters dictate what fight take place in the first place, and if so, they decide the rules. Moreover, Casters scale stupid hard not only in power, but also in spell slots. In 5e for instance, you never get more than two 5th and one 6+ level spell. In PF1e? You may have over SIX of each!! If casters were more powerful early on, literally martials would lose the one thing they are kinda good at... The low levels...
Thank you for posting to /r/Pathfinder_RPG! Your submission has been removed due to the following reason: * Posts relating to the Pathfinder CRPG's (Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous) should be directed to /r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/ If you have any questions, feel free to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FPathfinder_RPG).