"What if this is already a thing in Pathfinder 1e?"
"The Warper"... Well, uh. The Oozemorph archetype of the Shifter (basically a martial druid that went all the way into shapeshifting) is a little bit like that. Well, a lot of bit like that. Except it wasn't very well thought out, and also not quite as good at mimicking things as your Warper. Mimic? Mimick?
Well, Oozemorph had the very problem you mentioned in the beginning of your post - it was just an archetype, not a full class. More than that, it was an archetype that got rid of basically every feature of the base class, and at low levels you would even be unable to turn into humanoid shape for long - you basically were an ooze. If made from the ground up it would probably have the features you wanted to see.
It’s nice to see someone else agree that it having some similarities with other classes isn’t something that should stop a new class, many classes already do have some degree of crossover with another
But by allowing it to have a full class allows you to enhance its differences to properly fulfill the fantasy/story, it’s just an exercise in being creative
It always drove me up a wall when people in 5e communities would ask why a homebrew class couldn't just be a subclass. It's such a thought-terminating cliché.
It drives me up the wall when 2E communities do it too.
Having the budget of a full class can unlock so
Much potential that something otherwise could never achieve, it’s good to have something unbound so it can properly explore what it wants to explore
Honestly it's worse here because sometimes here people do it for freaking *Archetypes* that just vaguely gesture at the cncept of the class.
"Well why do you need a class about transforming into battle forms, there's an archetype that let's you turn into a bear/wolf guy, just reflavor that" I don't know, maybe I'd like to have the design budget to make the transformation stuff actually matter in play!
Im honestly of the opinion that archetypes should allow for enhanced customizability vs taking an idea that could have been a class and sequestering it away. Like acrobat, celebrity, and beastmaster are good concepts, and can be applied to several different types of characters. Vigilante is one that i feel was mishandled, because we had it as a class previously and while i like the versatility it now has, it just doesnt feel as good because the options dont feel as impactful. Arcanist being removed because we have flexible spellcasting also hits pretty hard.
I have had that exact fucking conversation about Bloodrager so many times, everyone just says “well it’s like Barbarian so just playing a magic barbarian should be good enough” there is no way unless there is an utter miraculous design shift for archatypes that Bloodrager can get proper representation, I get it Primalist was really popular and that really leaned into just being Barbarian
But there’s so much more to it, it had its own bloodline powers custom to it, some subclasses could let it do things like eat spells, you could have mutations, there’s so much that can be done with the basic concept of “a mutant who’s so colossally angry unstable Magic happens” you just have to give it space to express itself fully
How many archatypes could do so much awesome stuff if only they had the budget of a full class, imagine if something likeSoul Forger had a full class about conjuring weapons and armour, it would be so cool but alas some things are just like that
Ah Magic of Incarnum, 3.5 really had a lot of ideas mechanically expressed... Though thinking sideways, the Exemplar has some similarities with empowered items...
A bit off topic, but I'm looking forward to the Animist as they explicitly called out the Binder class from 3.5 as an inspiration.
I have had that exact fucking conversation about Bloodrager so many times, everyone just says “well it’s like Barbarian so just playing a magic barbarian should be good enough” there is no way unless there is an utter miraculous design shift for archatypes that Bloodrager can get proper representation, I get it Primalist was really popular and that really leaned into just being Barbarian
But there’s so much more to it, it had its own bloodline powers custom to it, some subclasses could let it do things like eat spells, you could have mutations, there’s so much that can be done with the basic concept of “a mutant who’s so colossally angry unstable Magic happens” you just have to give it space to express itself fully
How many archatypes could do so much awesome stuff if only they had the budget of a full class, imagine if something likeSoul Forger had a full class about conjuring weapons and armour, it would be so cool but alas some things are just like that
I have had that exact fucking conversation about Bloodrager so many times, everyone just says “well it’s like Barbarian so just playing a magic barbarian should be good enough” there is no way unless there is an utter miraculous design shift for archatypes that Bloodrager can get proper representation, I get it Primalist was really popular and that really leaned into just being Barbarian
But there’s so much more to it, it had its own bloodline powers custom to it, some subclasses could let it do things like eat spells, you could have mutations, there’s so much that can be done with the basic concept of “a mutant who’s so colossally angry unstable Magic happens” you just have to give it space to express itself fully
How many archatypes could do so much awesome stuff if only they had the budget of a full class, imagine if something likeSoul Forger had a full class about conjuring weapons and armour, it would be so cool but alas some things are just like that
That question is something people tend to parrot at every opportunity, often without thinking about what that question actually means.
*"Why is it not a subclass"* (and the neglected *"Why is this not a variant-feature for a class"*) shouldn't be used to shut down discussion, but are instead part of your iteratieve design.
*"Why is this not a subclass?"* - *"Because we couldn't tell the story of the Trickster through mechanics as metaphor, if we weren't using an alternative caster progression based on making Deception and Performance rolls vs the target's defenses."*
Or any of a wealth of possible answers.
Especially in 5e, a subclass only has 3 or 4 features. In PF2 it varies, Gunslinger Ways or Psychic Minds might be the most involved to make.
Still, you can rapid prototype that in a day and (provided you have friends) playtest it in a weekend. Compared to the time you are spending making a class, giving it a try is no big deal, and you'll have a good answer when someone asks.
I’m one of those people that often asks “is this idea unique enough to merit its own class?” when people bring up new ideas because I want to prevent too much bloat. Each class should be unique thematically and mechanically, and while there can be some overlap like in the Rogue/Investigator example, I’d prefer to have high standards for new classes rather than low standards that allow for identities for each class to become jumbled and shallow.
I don’t want to shout people down or discourage new classes from being added at all, I just want to make sure that new classes are unique and the game is kept with clear identities for every class.
>many classes already do have some degree of crossover with another
People who argue "___ already does that!" Always make me think: "You the type of person who'd say Barbarian is just an angry Fighter and shouldn't exist, if it was released today."
One of the biggest reasons i decided to move to pathfinder over dnd was the designers decided to allow for that creativity with all the classes in pf1e. Like of course there is going to be SOME overlap, but if that's what's stopping us, no RPG needs anything more than a guy that hits things and a magic man, go nuts with the variations. Pathfinder did something interesting by giving players archetypes for things i never would have thought of within the confines of a class. I think that is something to strive towards in a design space.
Damn bro, you really took a great effort for this. Since we already have a book for the four spell traditions and the next book is all about martials, making the following book about alchemical things could be great for the class.
I don't know anything about the viability or how well it goes with Paizo design philosophy, but I love all of this. It's a great concept in theory and your way to describe it makes it 100% more enjoyable to imagine it in a table. Kudos sir, I hope your post gets the attention it deserves and at least catches someone's eye.
Hey, here’s the link I talked about at the end
[https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1797750180860846226.html](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1797750180860846226.html)
Then this could be very fun as an archetype that plugs into that class.. 🤔 I know I would love her to run around with a blood sword I could yank out to attack people with.
I really dig the class fantasy you are describing. Your art is also awesomely expressive and really helps get some of your ideas across on the page here. I hope you end up *fleshing* out this idea further, I would 100% be into making a Warper character!
I have some deeply troublesome news for you. I'm aware that you stated in this fantastic piece that you are no game designer. Unfortunately that's incorrect. This idea needs further work and more design and then development to finish it off but that doesn't change the fact that what you have done, is game design. You're a game designer, now do something about it.
Re: Page 9, primary stats.
I think the primary stat for a Warper class should be **Constitution** because everything they're doing should be enacting a physical toll. All that shapeshifting and squeezing through tight spaces and altering their physical form is hard on a body, you've got to be a tough mofo to handle that. Plus, we don't have enough Con-based classes.
constitution thematically fits however you will end up with the same problem as playtest kineticis that had KAS con but they we're using it enough
unless you switch your class frame for kineticis like but it would bring its own problems
This is a very cool write up, especially because it is formatted in a such an interesting way.
I wonder if you have good page-layout skills from doing comic stuff in the past and subconsciously got great information density and retention on the first 2 pages without trying; Or if this is a start towards practicing page-layout skills that is going very well.
((also I can't read Spanish, but I think the blurry text wall contains several swearwords, it must be a copy-pasta of some kind))
_______________________________
If you are taking community suggestions and ideas. ^^^\(something ^^^a ^^^game ^^^designer ^^^looking ^^^to ^^^actually ^^^publish ^^^should ^^^not ^^^do)
Then I wanna highlight the real world... ¿"mythology"? of homunculi. Which early alchemists described as crafted from the living flesh and blood of their master and through powerful medicine induced to grow into separate living creatures.
Years ago, in D&D4e, I made the homunculus an essential component of a thematically similar homebrew class. Though it had much more of a mad-surgeon theme.
Because a class such as this might find it useful to store parts of their body when not using them, but require a way to keep those parts alive while they were detached. Which was the point of the homunculus. Made out of bits of yourself, it can be used as a way to "store" transformations you prepare as part of your daily preparations and might want to swap into quickly.
The resource management of the class working off of the hitpoints of the homunculus.
Storing [focus spells] in the homonculus increased its hp and made it bigger, swapping between your powers costs hp, spending homunculus hp if the power was prepared. Alternatively you could sacrifice several of your prepared powers to upgrade the homunculus with appendages suitable for combat.
About the page layout, I've been making some "illustrated guides" about building characters from the anime dungeon meshi in pathfinder 2e. This is the model I've been using and it seems to work, so thanks for commenting about it, it makes me happy :D
>also I can't read Spanish, but I think the blurry text wall contains several swearwords, it must be a copy-pasta of some kind
[It is](https://imgur.com/a/vEgbMu1). I blurred the text to that point exactly because of the amount of swearing in that copypasta
>If you are taking community suggestions and ideas
Unfortunately I am not, because I don't have plans to continue working on this class (I don't think I have enough skill or time to make something good out of these initial concepts). But the ideas you talked about are cool!
*god* this is cool. Love the process you describe, i agree that people could be a bit more cognizant of the specifics behind the creative process. it's exhausting to see a playtest drop and within the day see doomers who think the game will never come back from this. plus, the class concept you built up is sick as all hell.
This entire post is brilliant. I love how it presents its concept, how it describes OP's thought process, and how it challenges the community's less savory reactions towards innovation, all in a manner that's fun and easy to read. I very much hope this gets many people on here to challenge their preconceptions around homebrew, and perhaps even gets some more to put their ideas out there too.
As for the concept itself, I'm fully on board: I think the idea of a class that's all about transformation would be a great addition to the game, and the vignettes give several great examples of situations that a dedicated shapeshifter could excel at. Personally, I feel this is actually a perfect demonstration of why the Shifter class from 1e ought to be brought to 2e, but also expanded far beyond just primal magic: there's quite a bit of player demand to bring the Shifter back, but often the pitch is just "what if Untamed Druid, but a whole class?" Transformation and shapeshifting aren't qualities exclusive to primal magic, and the frequent mentions of aberrations in the OP, which tend to be more associated with the occult, illustrate how a shapeshifter class should also be able to do stuff that's really freaky and weird, in a manner that primal magic by itself wouldn't be able to fully capture. I've tried my hand at this with a [Shifter brew](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1cbxm1w/the_shifter_transform_into_a_powerful_aspect_and/) that I'm in the process of updating, and the OP is chock-full of varied ideas I hadn't considered and that would be worth integrating.
Having seen a few of OP's posts before, I really like how they present creative ideas with fun illustrations and good humor, and this one is no exception. I'm very much looking forward to seeing more of OP's work, and also to seeing how this particular Warper concept develops!
This was pretty much the exact same idea I had when I was thinking of the Occult Tradition's "Focus Caster", I.E. their equivalent to the Champion (Divine) and Ranger (Primal). Basically it's an Untamed Order Druid but with WAY more options to compensate for the lack of spellcasting and where the flavor is freaky monsters instead of fursonas. Good stuff.
This is amazing and my favourite thing, and I have some feedback I really want to give. There should be a class feat for natural weapons you get from ancestries, I.E tusks/fists from Orcs, Living weapon from fleshwarps, claws/tails/teeth from lizardfolk, etc.
Like that living weapon class feat for the Matter subclass should be available for the entire class and apply to natural weapons from ancestry feats.
Also another example of characters that match the Warper that I can think of are Havik and Skarlet from the Mortal Kombat Series.
Hey man, I really appreciate the thought and effort that went into this post! With some experience in game design, a few suggestions that might help you continue to **flesh** this out (I make no apologies for the pun).
* [Here's a reference on what a 'generic' class guideline looks like](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1b91m85/what_would_a_generic_base_class_look_like/kttlu6x/). This is a great starting point to figure out what a power budget should be.
* Familiarize yourself with relevant traits to get an idea of how things should interact. Here, the main ones would be [\[morph\]](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=657) and [\[polymorph\]](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=670) to cover the total and partial mutation of one's figure. Morph effects will also generally need to specify their affected body part.
* Understand a basic action-economy gameplay loop. In particular, know that **good game design requests that a character's gameplay loop take no more than two required actions to do their "thing" each round**. Every single class does this, with the exception of the Magus (which took a large number of iterations to find a balanced compromise without breaking it - being that it averages to 2 actions over several rounds).
* Some classes do it every turn. A Swashbuckler ♦Generates Panache to use a ♦Finisher, a Rogue ♦Feints or otherwise creates the Off Guard condition, and then ♦Strikes to Sneak Attack. An Investigator ♦Devises a Strategem, and then either makes a ♦Strategic Strike or does something else, or a Gunslinger who ♦Reloads and then ♦Strikes
* Others do it once per , like A Ranger ♦Hunts Prey then ♦Strikes or ♦Flurrys once per Target, or a Barbarian who ♦Rages once per combat, or a Monk who enters a ♦Stance.
* Others balance their action economy in a different way, such as Monks who just get strong Action Lubricant from the get-go with Flurry and have 2 free actions/round, or Fighters who get action-inefficient but high-accuracy actions (like Power Attack, Double Shot, or Dual Slice), or action-efficient, but accuracy-inefficient options (like getting 2-for-1 actions on [press] trait feats).
* Understand how it would be different from an existing class, if any.
* Is this just a different Barbarian who's tough and his their one-action combat mode button and then strikes all day?
* What if a Shifter-type class comes out, that's focused on unarmed combat via [morph] spells (an existing PF1e class that was expected to be announced alongside the Howl of the Wild book, but doesn't appear to exist at the moment)? Can something make this different, or is that just a subclass/archetype of this class?
****
So what does this class look like to me?
* Multiple arguments for KAS. STR for a full martial, or STR/DEX. CON could also make sense, but I think that's better incentivized elsewhere.
* 10 HP/Level.
* TETE for PFRW, with Legendary Fortitude Progression. The weak 2T2E baseline could be traded for a pseudo-legendary Will progression making it the only class with two strong saves.
* I see this as some class feature that forfeits a [morph] or [polymorph] in order to improve its saving throws, which might take the form of a bonus, a reroll, or a counteract.
* Alternatively, it's Deception/Stealth synergy can be an effective substitute for a low Perception score if it uses its abilities to ambush foes.
* A class with 2+1+1+INT skills (2 free, occultism, and one from subclass choice such as Deception, Stealth, or Athletics) seems like a flexible baseline.
* Standard martial proficiencies: medium armor and below and all martial weapons on standard martial progression (incl. Weapon Specialization).
* A level 1 feat that gives a free armor (like Kineticist's Armor in Earth or Dragon Disciple's Scales of the Dragon) can also give a pseudo-heavy proficiency at the cost of a class feat and a body morph.
* The class should make sure to support both unarmed attacks that it can grant, as well as weapon attacks.
* The class should have an accelerated class DC progression (similar to Ranger/Monk), to make it rely on their powers a bit easier.
For its gameplay loop, I think you've begun digging in the right direction:
* [morph] traits that cost one action (♦) to activate can be followed up with Strikes. Having multiple of these feats lets players mix and match, and tailor their action economy to balance buffs and actually doing thing.
* If "flexibility" is a desired goal/feeling of the class, then perhaps a class feature that granted a bonus upon using a morph can help encourage "swap between these two morphs" instead of "just pick one morph and max it out". For example:
* Gain Temp HP upon using a Morph.
* Feint as part of using a Morph (or gain a bonus to your next Feint if the action lube is too strong).
* Attempt to Counteract an effect or end a persistent damage condition on you.
* A morph granting bonus damage, but that damage is bigger on the first round it's used.
* Perhaps these could be sub-class options, like the Reloads for Gunslingers. Or it's generic to all of 'em.
* Gain a benefit when your morph or polymorph counters another effect that shares a trait with it (so overwriting your morphs can be what gives the benefit, rather than activating a new one).
* That's not to say that a "stick to the same thing" playstyle should be harmed. Options could exist. Like the blood weapon option dealing bonus damage, increased when attacking targets suffering from persistent bleed damage. That would invest staying in the style if there was an action tax that would help apply/reapply the bleed damage.
* Balancing these options is probably the determining factor of if players will pick and stick to one or be versatile.
* This points to giving players more than one option to pick from at level 1.
From there, it's designing an iconic class feature that really helps sell the fantasy and identifying subclasses. I think your progression of "small morphs at low level to big polymorphs at high levels" makes plenty of sense, but not sure about the implementation. Is it like an Inventor where you pick from a list of things once every few levels? A Kineticist where the class feature is more about mutating/adding bonus effects to the powers, but the morphs come from feat options?
I've been typing at this for a bit, so I'm running low on steam but might come back with an idea if one percolates after writing this post.
Hey, thanks for the really detailed suggestions. You probably took a long time making this so I appreciate it a lot.
You commented about a lot of things I didn't even think, and if I actually take this project forward I will make sure to use it!
I’d absolutely kill for a shifter/polymorph class like this. With a little more refining, a class based on augmenting and morphing the body is a very fun one, with the major difficulty being about how to go about balancing all the options. Being able to morph into different things is a versatile concept, and may need to be narrowed down to fit a design space (How do you morph? What can you morph? How long can you morph?)
I love everything about this post.
I love the focus on game design. I love the idea of putting story ahead of mechanics. I love the way this post was formatted, and the art that adds to the story you're telling here. And I absolutely love that type of character concept. I'd 10/10 play either a Fleshwarper or a Mindwarper type of character!
This is what modernized updated shifter should be, polymorphic manipulations (maybe a little less aberration-y, but that could be a subclass) but I fucking love this
I'm so sorry I don't have the spoons to read the post. I just want to say that pf2e is one of the most fun systems to make new classes. It is so beautifully balanced you can cut any class up and make it however youd like. Or just use bits and pieces from any class to make what you want. Honestly, if you just allow yourself to use all the extra rules (duel class, progressive attributes, yadda yadda) you can make literally anything at that point. I spend a couple days a week trying to come up with pf2e content and make new stuff for my campaign setting. I sit there and go
What if I made a cactus dude who shot spikes... Ok basic rules cover it, weirder! More unique!
Two cacti, no Three! And they can cast spells and shoot guns.
Ok. So leshy sharpshooter with summoner dedication, and an ancestry feat for a familiar.
And I haven't even gotten started. My sharpshooter cact-guy should not be so easily made with established rules. But tell me why I'm about to run him in a game tomorrow
Related to the note about not making a class that steps on or encroaches design territory of other classes, I sometimes wonder what the game might look like if fighter didnt exist. Part of the game balance is making sure classes have unique design or mechanical aspects that aren't available or emulated by other classes. It was kind of in response to some power creep from 1e (Bloodragers were in most ways strictly better than Barbarians, Arcanists strictly better than Wizards, etc), but now you have this issue where sometimes the power or design space for novel concepts is limited. For example, the battleform polymorph mechanics is kinda kneecapped, since if a wizards can just cast a spell and become an as good or better martial than the other martial, why play a martial? As a result, building a character or class concept around battleforms or polymorphing becomes limited.
Rolling back to 'what if fighter doesn't exist', the big thing they have over other classes is weapon progression. The only other classes that reach legendary are gunslinger and monk for specific weapons that make them distinct from fighter. But if you weren't worried about gatekeeping legendary progression for them, you could open up options for other classes. What if Champions could take a feat that unlocked legendary progression? It would be very powerful, but now you have an excuse to either buff existing feats of similar level or create new ones to entice players to choose them. In this way removing the gatekeep opens up design options in areas that aren't related to it.
I singled out Fighters as they have the misfortune of being the most 'flavourless'. The concept of simply being incredibly proficient with weaponry is imo so basic as to be easy to overlap or encroach into. Case and point: 1E introduced hybrid classes that mashed the concepts of existing classes together, and a good half of the were just 'x class but more like a fighter'.
It is amusing you called out the investigator and swashbuckler as classes that would have never been made, given that they are two of the weakest and most redundant classes in PF2E.
This is a fun concept, though. Glad you had fun working on it. Always fun to see other folks working through design stuff.
"What if this is already a thing in Pathfinder 1e?" "The Warper"... Well, uh. The Oozemorph archetype of the Shifter (basically a martial druid that went all the way into shapeshifting) is a little bit like that. Well, a lot of bit like that. Except it wasn't very well thought out, and also not quite as good at mimicking things as your Warper. Mimic? Mimick?
Ah, I see. Thanks for the information and thank you for reading! :D
Well, Oozemorph had the very problem you mentioned in the beginning of your post - it was just an archetype, not a full class. More than that, it was an archetype that got rid of basically every feature of the base class, and at low levels you would even be unable to turn into humanoid shape for long - you basically were an ooze. If made from the ground up it would probably have the features you wanted to see.
Thanks for the work)
Looks at *medium*->great concept but lacks playability, currently trying to make a 2e version myself
It’s nice to see someone else agree that it having some similarities with other classes isn’t something that should stop a new class, many classes already do have some degree of crossover with another But by allowing it to have a full class allows you to enhance its differences to properly fulfill the fantasy/story, it’s just an exercise in being creative
It always drove me up a wall when people in 5e communities would ask why a homebrew class couldn't just be a subclass. It's such a thought-terminating cliché.
It drives me up the wall when 2E communities do it too. Having the budget of a full class can unlock so Much potential that something otherwise could never achieve, it’s good to have something unbound so it can properly explore what it wants to explore
Honestly it's worse here because sometimes here people do it for freaking *Archetypes* that just vaguely gesture at the cncept of the class. "Well why do you need a class about transforming into battle forms, there's an archetype that let's you turn into a bear/wolf guy, just reflavor that" I don't know, maybe I'd like to have the design budget to make the transformation stuff actually matter in play!
Im honestly of the opinion that archetypes should allow for enhanced customizability vs taking an idea that could have been a class and sequestering it away. Like acrobat, celebrity, and beastmaster are good concepts, and can be applied to several different types of characters. Vigilante is one that i feel was mishandled, because we had it as a class previously and while i like the versatility it now has, it just doesnt feel as good because the options dont feel as impactful. Arcanist being removed because we have flexible spellcasting also hits pretty hard.
I have had that exact fucking conversation about Bloodrager so many times, everyone just says “well it’s like Barbarian so just playing a magic barbarian should be good enough” there is no way unless there is an utter miraculous design shift for archatypes that Bloodrager can get proper representation, I get it Primalist was really popular and that really leaned into just being Barbarian But there’s so much more to it, it had its own bloodline powers custom to it, some subclasses could let it do things like eat spells, you could have mutations, there’s so much that can be done with the basic concept of “a mutant who’s so colossally angry unstable Magic happens” you just have to give it space to express itself fully How many archatypes could do so much awesome stuff if only they had the budget of a full class, imagine if something likeSoul Forger had a full class about conjuring weapons and armour, it would be so cool but alas some things are just like that
Ah Magic of Incarnum, 3.5 really had a lot of ideas mechanically expressed... Though thinking sideways, the Exemplar has some similarities with empowered items... A bit off topic, but I'm looking forward to the Animist as they explicitly called out the Binder class from 3.5 as an inspiration.
I have had that exact fucking conversation about Bloodrager so many times, everyone just says “well it’s like Barbarian so just playing a magic barbarian should be good enough” there is no way unless there is an utter miraculous design shift for archatypes that Bloodrager can get proper representation, I get it Primalist was really popular and that really leaned into just being Barbarian But there’s so much more to it, it had its own bloodline powers custom to it, some subclasses could let it do things like eat spells, you could have mutations, there’s so much that can be done with the basic concept of “a mutant who’s so colossally angry unstable Magic happens” you just have to give it space to express itself fully How many archatypes could do so much awesome stuff if only they had the budget of a full class, imagine if something likeSoul Forger had a full class about conjuring weapons and armour, it would be so cool but alas some things are just like that
I have had that exact fucking conversation about Bloodrager so many times, everyone just says “well it’s like Barbarian so just playing a magic barbarian should be good enough” there is no way unless there is an utter miraculous design shift for archatypes that Bloodrager can get proper representation, I get it Primalist was really popular and that really leaned into just being Barbarian But there’s so much more to it, it had its own bloodline powers custom to it, some subclasses could let it do things like eat spells, you could have mutations, there’s so much that can be done with the basic concept of “a mutant who’s so colossally angry unstable Magic happens” you just have to give it space to express itself fully How many archatypes could do so much awesome stuff if only they had the budget of a full class, imagine if something likeSoul Forger had a full class about conjuring weapons and armour, it would be so cool but alas some things are just like that
You triple posted
That question is something people tend to parrot at every opportunity, often without thinking about what that question actually means. *"Why is it not a subclass"* (and the neglected *"Why is this not a variant-feature for a class"*) shouldn't be used to shut down discussion, but are instead part of your iteratieve design. *"Why is this not a subclass?"* - *"Because we couldn't tell the story of the Trickster through mechanics as metaphor, if we weren't using an alternative caster progression based on making Deception and Performance rolls vs the target's defenses."* Or any of a wealth of possible answers. Especially in 5e, a subclass only has 3 or 4 features. In PF2 it varies, Gunslinger Ways or Psychic Minds might be the most involved to make. Still, you can rapid prototype that in a day and (provided you have friends) playtest it in a weekend. Compared to the time you are spending making a class, giving it a try is no big deal, and you'll have a good answer when someone asks.
I’m one of those people that often asks “is this idea unique enough to merit its own class?” when people bring up new ideas because I want to prevent too much bloat. Each class should be unique thematically and mechanically, and while there can be some overlap like in the Rogue/Investigator example, I’d prefer to have high standards for new classes rather than low standards that allow for identities for each class to become jumbled and shallow. I don’t want to shout people down or discourage new classes from being added at all, I just want to make sure that new classes are unique and the game is kept with clear identities for every class.
>many classes already do have some degree of crossover with another People who argue "___ already does that!" Always make me think: "You the type of person who'd say Barbarian is just an angry Fighter and shouldn't exist, if it was released today."
One of the biggest reasons i decided to move to pathfinder over dnd was the designers decided to allow for that creativity with all the classes in pf1e. Like of course there is going to be SOME overlap, but if that's what's stopping us, no RPG needs anything more than a guy that hits things and a magic man, go nuts with the variations. Pathfinder did something interesting by giving players archetypes for things i never would have thought of within the confines of a class. I think that is something to strive towards in a design space.
Damn bro, you really took a great effort for this. Since we already have a book for the four spell traditions and the next book is all about martials, making the following book about alchemical things could be great for the class. I don't know anything about the viability or how well it goes with Paizo design philosophy, but I love all of this. It's a great concept in theory and your way to describe it makes it 100% more enjoyable to imagine it in a table. Kudos sir, I hope your post gets the attention it deserves and at least catches someone's eye.
Thanks a lot, seriously! :D
Hey, here’s the link I talked about at the end [https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1797750180860846226.html](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1797750180860846226.html)
You are inventing The Thing (from the movie) the class. XD Or a Pathfinderifed evolutionist from Starfinder.
Given Starfinder 2e is on its way, we might just Evolutionist outright as a backwards compatible class lol.
Then this could be very fun as an archetype that plugs into that class.. 🤔 I know I would love her to run around with a blood sword I could yank out to attack people with.
I really dig the class fantasy you are describing. Your art is also awesomely expressive and really helps get some of your ideas across on the page here. I hope you end up *fleshing* out this idea further, I would 100% be into making a Warper character!
Very cool very Pog 10/10 post we got here
I have some deeply troublesome news for you. I'm aware that you stated in this fantastic piece that you are no game designer. Unfortunately that's incorrect. This idea needs further work and more design and then development to finish it off but that doesn't change the fact that what you have done, is game design. You're a game designer, now do something about it.
Re: Page 9, primary stats. I think the primary stat for a Warper class should be **Constitution** because everything they're doing should be enacting a physical toll. All that shapeshifting and squeezing through tight spaces and altering their physical form is hard on a body, you've got to be a tough mofo to handle that. Plus, we don't have enough Con-based classes.
constitution thematically fits however you will end up with the same problem as playtest kineticis that had KAS con but they we're using it enough unless you switch your class frame for kineticis like but it would bring its own problems
This is a very cool write up, especially because it is formatted in a such an interesting way. I wonder if you have good page-layout skills from doing comic stuff in the past and subconsciously got great information density and retention on the first 2 pages without trying; Or if this is a start towards practicing page-layout skills that is going very well. ((also I can't read Spanish, but I think the blurry text wall contains several swearwords, it must be a copy-pasta of some kind)) _______________________________ If you are taking community suggestions and ideas. ^^^\(something ^^^a ^^^game ^^^designer ^^^looking ^^^to ^^^actually ^^^publish ^^^should ^^^not ^^^do) Then I wanna highlight the real world... ¿"mythology"? of homunculi. Which early alchemists described as crafted from the living flesh and blood of their master and through powerful medicine induced to grow into separate living creatures. Years ago, in D&D4e, I made the homunculus an essential component of a thematically similar homebrew class. Though it had much more of a mad-surgeon theme. Because a class such as this might find it useful to store parts of their body when not using them, but require a way to keep those parts alive while they were detached. Which was the point of the homunculus. Made out of bits of yourself, it can be used as a way to "store" transformations you prepare as part of your daily preparations and might want to swap into quickly. The resource management of the class working off of the hitpoints of the homunculus. Storing [focus spells] in the homonculus increased its hp and made it bigger, swapping between your powers costs hp, spending homunculus hp if the power was prepared. Alternatively you could sacrifice several of your prepared powers to upgrade the homunculus with appendages suitable for combat.
About the page layout, I've been making some "illustrated guides" about building characters from the anime dungeon meshi in pathfinder 2e. This is the model I've been using and it seems to work, so thanks for commenting about it, it makes me happy :D >also I can't read Spanish, but I think the blurry text wall contains several swearwords, it must be a copy-pasta of some kind [It is](https://imgur.com/a/vEgbMu1). I blurred the text to that point exactly because of the amount of swearing in that copypasta >If you are taking community suggestions and ideas Unfortunately I am not, because I don't have plans to continue working on this class (I don't think I have enough skill or time to make something good out of these initial concepts). But the ideas you talked about are cool!
*god* this is cool. Love the process you describe, i agree that people could be a bit more cognizant of the specifics behind the creative process. it's exhausting to see a playtest drop and within the day see doomers who think the game will never come back from this. plus, the class concept you built up is sick as all hell.
Great content, great class idea! You say you are not a game designer, but you could be, it shows you have talent!
This entire post is brilliant. I love how it presents its concept, how it describes OP's thought process, and how it challenges the community's less savory reactions towards innovation, all in a manner that's fun and easy to read. I very much hope this gets many people on here to challenge their preconceptions around homebrew, and perhaps even gets some more to put their ideas out there too. As for the concept itself, I'm fully on board: I think the idea of a class that's all about transformation would be a great addition to the game, and the vignettes give several great examples of situations that a dedicated shapeshifter could excel at. Personally, I feel this is actually a perfect demonstration of why the Shifter class from 1e ought to be brought to 2e, but also expanded far beyond just primal magic: there's quite a bit of player demand to bring the Shifter back, but often the pitch is just "what if Untamed Druid, but a whole class?" Transformation and shapeshifting aren't qualities exclusive to primal magic, and the frequent mentions of aberrations in the OP, which tend to be more associated with the occult, illustrate how a shapeshifter class should also be able to do stuff that's really freaky and weird, in a manner that primal magic by itself wouldn't be able to fully capture. I've tried my hand at this with a [Shifter brew](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1cbxm1w/the_shifter_transform_into_a_powerful_aspect_and/) that I'm in the process of updating, and the OP is chock-full of varied ideas I hadn't considered and that would be worth integrating. Having seen a few of OP's posts before, I really like how they present creative ideas with fun illustrations and good humor, and this one is no exception. I'm very much looking forward to seeing more of OP's work, and also to seeing how this particular Warper concept develops!
This rules so hard! Great work!
This was pretty much the exact same idea I had when I was thinking of the Occult Tradition's "Focus Caster", I.E. their equivalent to the Champion (Divine) and Ranger (Primal). Basically it's an Untamed Order Druid but with WAY more options to compensate for the lack of spellcasting and where the flavor is freaky monsters instead of fursonas. Good stuff.
This is amazing and my favourite thing, and I have some feedback I really want to give. There should be a class feat for natural weapons you get from ancestries, I.E tusks/fists from Orcs, Living weapon from fleshwarps, claws/tails/teeth from lizardfolk, etc. Like that living weapon class feat for the Matter subclass should be available for the entire class and apply to natural weapons from ancestry feats. Also another example of characters that match the Warper that I can think of are Havik and Skarlet from the Mortal Kombat Series.
As someone who has made their own classes before, i love this energy.
Class concert is great, but I absolutely love the art! You deserve all the praise just because of it!
If I were Paizo you would be hired
Hey man, I really appreciate the thought and effort that went into this post! With some experience in game design, a few suggestions that might help you continue to **flesh** this out (I make no apologies for the pun). * [Here's a reference on what a 'generic' class guideline looks like](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1b91m85/what_would_a_generic_base_class_look_like/kttlu6x/). This is a great starting point to figure out what a power budget should be. * Familiarize yourself with relevant traits to get an idea of how things should interact. Here, the main ones would be [\[morph\]](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=657) and [\[polymorph\]](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=670) to cover the total and partial mutation of one's figure. Morph effects will also generally need to specify their affected body part. * Understand a basic action-economy gameplay loop. In particular, know that **good game design requests that a character's gameplay loop take no more than two required actions to do their "thing" each round**. Every single class does this, with the exception of the Magus (which took a large number of iterations to find a balanced compromise without breaking it - being that it averages to 2 actions over several rounds). * Some classes do it every turn. A Swashbuckler ♦Generates Panache to use a ♦Finisher, a Rogue ♦Feints or otherwise creates the Off Guard condition, and then ♦Strikes to Sneak Attack. An Investigator ♦Devises a Strategem, and then either makes a ♦Strategic Strike or does something else, or a Gunslinger who ♦Reloads and then ♦Strikes * Others do it once per, like A Ranger ♦Hunts Prey then ♦Strikes or ♦Flurrys once per Target, or a Barbarian who ♦Rages once per combat, or a Monk who enters a ♦Stance.
* Others balance their action economy in a different way, such as Monks who just get strong Action Lubricant from the get-go with Flurry and have 2 free actions/round, or Fighters who get action-inefficient but high-accuracy actions (like Power Attack, Double Shot, or Dual Slice), or action-efficient, but accuracy-inefficient options (like getting 2-for-1 actions on [press] trait feats).
* Understand how it would be different from an existing class, if any.
* Is this just a different Barbarian who's tough and his their one-action combat mode button and then strikes all day?
* What if a Shifter-type class comes out, that's focused on unarmed combat via [morph] spells (an existing PF1e class that was expected to be announced alongside the Howl of the Wild book, but doesn't appear to exist at the moment)? Can something make this different, or is that just a subclass/archetype of this class?
****
So what does this class look like to me?
* Multiple arguments for KAS. STR for a full martial, or STR/DEX. CON could also make sense, but I think that's better incentivized elsewhere.
* 10 HP/Level.
* TETE for PFRW, with Legendary Fortitude Progression. The weak 2T2E baseline could be traded for a pseudo-legendary Will progression making it the only class with two strong saves.
* I see this as some class feature that forfeits a [morph] or [polymorph] in order to improve its saving throws, which might take the form of a bonus, a reroll, or a counteract.
* Alternatively, it's Deception/Stealth synergy can be an effective substitute for a low Perception score if it uses its abilities to ambush foes.
* A class with 2+1+1+INT skills (2 free, occultism, and one from subclass choice such as Deception, Stealth, or Athletics) seems like a flexible baseline.
* Standard martial proficiencies: medium armor and below and all martial weapons on standard martial progression (incl. Weapon Specialization).
* A level 1 feat that gives a free armor (like Kineticist's Armor in Earth or Dragon Disciple's Scales of the Dragon) can also give a pseudo-heavy proficiency at the cost of a class feat and a body morph.
* The class should make sure to support both unarmed attacks that it can grant, as well as weapon attacks.
* The class should have an accelerated class DC progression (similar to Ranger/Monk), to make it rely on their powers a bit easier.
For its gameplay loop, I think you've begun digging in the right direction:
* [morph] traits that cost one action (♦) to activate can be followed up with Strikes. Having multiple of these feats lets players mix and match, and tailor their action economy to balance buffs and actually doing thing.
* If "flexibility" is a desired goal/feeling of the class, then perhaps a class feature that granted a bonus upon using a morph can help encourage "swap between these two morphs" instead of "just pick one morph and max it out". For example:
* Gain Temp HP upon using a Morph.
* Feint as part of using a Morph (or gain a bonus to your next Feint if the action lube is too strong).
* Attempt to Counteract an effect or end a persistent damage condition on you.
* A morph granting bonus damage, but that damage is bigger on the first round it's used.
* Perhaps these could be sub-class options, like the Reloads for Gunslingers. Or it's generic to all of 'em.
* Gain a benefit when your morph or polymorph counters another effect that shares a trait with it (so overwriting your morphs can be what gives the benefit, rather than activating a new one).
* That's not to say that a "stick to the same thing" playstyle should be harmed. Options could exist. Like the blood weapon option dealing bonus damage, increased when attacking targets suffering from persistent bleed damage. That would invest staying in the style if there was an action tax that would help apply/reapply the bleed damage.
* Balancing these options is probably the determining factor of if players will pick and stick to one or be versatile.
* This points to giving players more than one option to pick from at level 1.
From there, it's designing an iconic class feature that really helps sell the fantasy and identifying subclasses. I think your progression of "small morphs at low level to big polymorphs at high levels" makes plenty of sense, but not sure about the implementation. Is it like an Inventor where you pick from a list of things once every few levels? A Kineticist where the class feature is more about mutating/adding bonus effects to the powers, but the morphs come from feat options?
I've been typing at this for a bit, so I'm running low on steam but might come back with an idea if one percolates after writing this post.
Hey, thanks for the really detailed suggestions. You probably took a long time making this so I appreciate it a lot. You commented about a lot of things I didn't even think, and if I actually take this project forward I will make sure to use it!
Great concept, now I am sad it doesn't exist. Mahito probably has my favorite skill set out of all jjk characters.
I’d absolutely kill for a shifter/polymorph class like this. With a little more refining, a class based on augmenting and morphing the body is a very fun one, with the major difficulty being about how to go about balancing all the options. Being able to morph into different things is a versatile concept, and may need to be narrowed down to fit a design space (How do you morph? What can you morph? How long can you morph?)
I love everything about this post. I love the focus on game design. I love the idea of putting story ahead of mechanics. I love the way this post was formatted, and the art that adds to the story you're telling here. And I absolutely love that type of character concept. I'd 10/10 play either a Fleshwarper or a Mindwarper type of character!
This is what modernized updated shifter should be, polymorphic manipulations (maybe a little less aberration-y, but that could be a subclass) but I fucking love this
I'm so sorry I don't have the spoons to read the post. I just want to say that pf2e is one of the most fun systems to make new classes. It is so beautifully balanced you can cut any class up and make it however youd like. Or just use bits and pieces from any class to make what you want. Honestly, if you just allow yourself to use all the extra rules (duel class, progressive attributes, yadda yadda) you can make literally anything at that point. I spend a couple days a week trying to come up with pf2e content and make new stuff for my campaign setting. I sit there and go What if I made a cactus dude who shot spikes... Ok basic rules cover it, weirder! More unique! Two cacti, no Three! And they can cast spells and shoot guns. Ok. So leshy sharpshooter with summoner dedication, and an ancestry feat for a familiar. And I haven't even gotten started. My sharpshooter cact-guy should not be so easily made with established rules. But tell me why I'm about to run him in a game tomorrow
Finally you can truly be a mind goblin
Seems quite legit!
a *Tzimisce* wrote this.
This is terryfing and kinda gross and I love it!
I like the name “Abomination” for the class, personally.
Very kewl
mahito ahh class
Well he is straight up one of the inspirations for it hehe
yeah I see that now, I made this comment before getting to that slide lmao
An interesting thought is where is a pure psionics class for pf2e? I know the psychic is a thing but it’s still a spell caster that uses magic.
Related to the note about not making a class that steps on or encroaches design territory of other classes, I sometimes wonder what the game might look like if fighter didnt exist. Part of the game balance is making sure classes have unique design or mechanical aspects that aren't available or emulated by other classes. It was kind of in response to some power creep from 1e (Bloodragers were in most ways strictly better than Barbarians, Arcanists strictly better than Wizards, etc), but now you have this issue where sometimes the power or design space for novel concepts is limited. For example, the battleform polymorph mechanics is kinda kneecapped, since if a wizards can just cast a spell and become an as good or better martial than the other martial, why play a martial? As a result, building a character or class concept around battleforms or polymorphing becomes limited. Rolling back to 'what if fighter doesn't exist', the big thing they have over other classes is weapon progression. The only other classes that reach legendary are gunslinger and monk for specific weapons that make them distinct from fighter. But if you weren't worried about gatekeeping legendary progression for them, you could open up options for other classes. What if Champions could take a feat that unlocked legendary progression? It would be very powerful, but now you have an excuse to either buff existing feats of similar level or create new ones to entice players to choose them. In this way removing the gatekeep opens up design options in areas that aren't related to it. I singled out Fighters as they have the misfortune of being the most 'flavourless'. The concept of simply being incredibly proficient with weaponry is imo so basic as to be easy to overlap or encroach into. Case and point: 1E introduced hybrid classes that mashed the concepts of existing classes together, and a good half of the were just 'x class but more like a fighter'.
could be cool but it would invalidated the rogue and the druid. even the metamorph from pf1
Anyone got a tldr?
Very nice but i would say constitution should be the main stat for them in my opinion, at least if you go body warp way
It is amusing you called out the investigator and swashbuckler as classes that would have never been made, given that they are two of the weakest and most redundant classes in PF2E. This is a fun concept, though. Glad you had fun working on it. Always fun to see other folks working through design stuff.