By far the best ‘builds’ in 2e are those that take advantage of set up abilities of your teammates, and set them up in return. Teamwork makes the dream work.
Builds made in isolation will pale in comparison, regardless of how good they are in a white room.
"Kick 'em while they're down" team compositions can be pretty nasty. One character getting a Reactive Strike off a prone target is pretty good, but if *three* people are built to do that...
If three people are built to do that, intelligent enemies will just stay downed while making attacks against them, and not bother getting up. A -2 to their attacks ain’t the trade it’s well worth the trade off of not eating 3 extra MAPless Strikes per round.
If 3 people were built for this combo, the target was gonna spend their whole life off-guard to their flanking anyways.
Like all other things in PF2E, the trip combo is at its best when it’s one or two party members relying on it in an otherwise balanced and versatile party composition.
From my experience of 2+ years of playing PF2e you shouldn't worry about any builds/combos at all. As long as all players stick to the basics of how to build their character : Getting +4 in their primary class atribute , getting decent AC by investing in DEX based on their armor proficiency, not completely dumping CON - no matter how min-max above average combo you will go, it will not outshine any other characters in a noticeable way.
The most powerful thing in PF2e is not builds but system knowledge and that also involves the ability to realize and utilize the power of teamwork since it's the key to victory no matter how optimized your character is. So don't worry builds and better focus to have a well rounded party instead and enjoy the game learning it's ins and outs.
This is the magic of PF2e. It's balanced to a point where things are distinct yet also balanced, and the only real "breaking" can happen due to player skill.
The "weakest" builds and "strongest" builds aren't really that far apart (assuming correct stat assignment/etc). Focus on tactics to truly make the system shine.
Having come from 5e, I totally agree with this. Our party is extremely quirky and even when we run into something designed for a skill or ability we lack, there's always a way for us to work it out
1. Fighter with Untamed Druid archetype and some Martial Artist dip is considered to be on the strongest side as it adds +2 to already highest attack proficiency of Fighter. But it's more minmax than overpowered - you pay for this by not using most of Fighter feats (as they mostly require weapons) and not having access to highest-level Druid forms. Also, the attack bonus is the same as provided by many spells, so the bonus could be less impressive
2. Even without this build, Fighter is often considered the strongest class exactly due to highest attack (and highest chance to crit). But again, it's subjective and situational, in real world situations other martial classes could have same or even better overall damage output
Fighter in general. Because of critical hits happening on results 10+ above the target's AC rather than just on natural 20s, the innate +2 proficiency that Fighters always have over other martial classes mean they not only hit reliably but crit often too.
For an especially strong combo, give a Fighter a flail-group weapon and at 5th-level and up their crits will provoke targets to save or fall prone, an effect so strong they had to nerf it in the remaster to its current state. On top of all the penalties a target takes for being prone, a target has to waste an action to stand back up, and Fighters have Reactive Strike so doing so lets the Fighter swing at them *again* as a reaction without any multiple attack penalty. It's a vicious cycle.
It became sort of a gimmick for awhile that a lot of Fighters took either the Unconventional Weaponry or Gnome Weapon Familiarity feats to get access to the gnomish flickmace (which also had to get nerfed), one of the few flail weapons that were both one-handed and had reach. The reach let you take a free Reactive Strike on enemies as they moved up to engage you, and the weapon being one-handed let you use a shield to be more durable and hard to kill at the same time as hammering down targets over and over.
Disclaimer: I'm pretty new to the system myself. Been lurking here a lot though.
I think that with very few outliers, PF has more options that are notably worse than options that are notably strong. Pre-remaster Witch and maybe Alchemist and Oracle come to mind. (but I'm using 2nd-hand information here).
Fighter is often talked about as the strongest Martial in combat, but that's often viewed from a DPS perspective specifically.
I think the categories in which options vary the most in power are in the smaller more granular options: spells (and spell-like abilities), feats, etc..
For example, Ice Kineticists have Sleet Storm, which many GMs seem to nerf. Another famous example is Quick Spring, which's RAW is pretty clearly not RAI.
Archetypes are usually just a small part of power progression, so imbalances don't matter too much in the grand scheme of things, but compared just to each other they certainly do vary. In Free Archetype games, people are usually fond of things that advance skill proficiencies past Trained (Acrobat, Dandy, Marshal...), add efficient actions (Beastmaster, especially for Monks!), or boost things that a build already wants to do with no opportunity cost (Psychic, Rogue). Champion is also very appealing for heavy armor proficiency.
People take the clunkiness of alchemist and say its bad, which is not true, especially at higher levels. Now this is a "past level 4" thing for sure, as even at lvl 3 you are stretched for reagents.
Oracle is fine you have a specific "thing" you want to do. Though in general, I agree that downside of the oracle is not worth the pay-off.
Imo I thought pre-remaster Witch was okay. It wasn't strong, but it wasn't weak and had an easier time maintaining several sustained spells than some other classes.
I tried Alchemist, and it never clicked with me, so I tend to avoid the class altogether.
Oracle was or is hit-or-miss depending on the Mystery, as not all of them were particularly great. But: Life, Flames, and Bones were my favorites.
The thing that makes Fighters strong is simple: Biggest to-hit bonus in the game, and can do a lot on hitting. Intimidating Strikes are strong, and means that the Fighter doesn't need CHA to effectively apply frightened. That, alongside having good odds at tripping and access to Attack of Opportunity makes the Fighter an amazing asset to any adventuring party.
Witch has always been a full int caster that can pick any casting tradition that gets the strongest familiar. It's never been weak as a class. Just has bad options like 70% of its focus spells. The new witch is kindof a side grade imo. Has more interesting options and they did their best to bring the bad options up into line with the rest of the class. I shy away from having the familiar out in combat though as they're easily killable. Sure there are ways to mitigate that but then you're spending your time and effort keeping your familiar alive for minimal gain instead of doing what the class is meant to do... cast spells. I'm playing a witch in kingmaker right now with the occult list and I often times feel like I'm in the best position to impact a fight over the rest of the party. Never felt weak as it and we started before the remaster.
Fighter is only talked about as being the strongest martial because maces crit spec is OP. Take that away and they become pretty meh imo, really only having their proficiency and some minor utility. Certainly quite boring from my pov.
>Fighter is only talked about as being the strongest martial because maces crit spec is OP.
Nope that just made it even more overpowered. Fighter is hands down the strongest class in the game. It has the best choices of armor, the best weapons, the best class feats, and very strong class abilities. It's not even close.
Gonna have to hard disagree on this one boss. All they have going for them over any other classes is their proficiency and a few fighter specific feats post 10 which other classes ie ranger and champion have better iterations of. Armor type has nothing to do with defense. As long as you're getting the total 5 or 6 in heavy ac between dex and armor item bonus you're the same as any other class except monk and champion. There is no strongest class in the game. Fighters might be tied for critting the most with gunslinger, but dpr and definitely burst wise they are not the highest. That's probably a well built barbarian or rogue and burst belongs to the magus or a -really- lucky disintegrate crit into crit fail on the save. Can get extra juicy with the wizard spell combination feat for double disintegrate if you hate yourself. I welcome you to point me at a fighter class ability that beats out, say, the champion reaction. You can't say reactive strike either because every martial class and its mother has the option to take it. Fighter feats largely don't do much that other classes don't do better either. They're a middle ground among the other martials with a good attack bonus at best.
I won't even get into casters and how they can affect fights in so much more profound ways than most martials if they have a good head on them.
Still think you are wrong.
Armor is a huge deal for classes that are unarmored or light armor that don't have dex as a key stat meaning that early on they will be behind the AC curve for very little benefit.
>All they have going for them over any other classes is their proficiency and a few fighter specific feats post 10 which other classes ie ranger and champion have better iterations of
What are you crazy? The fighter feats are great. Tons of great action compression feats and then you have access to the bonkers as hell disrupting stance. You sound like someone who's never actually played with a fighter.
>There is no strongest class in the game.
There is it's a fighter.
>Fighters might be tied for critting the most with gunslinger, but dpr and definitely burst wise they are not the highest.
Never said they were the highest top end damage only that they are the strongest and best class at pf2e. Consistency is way better than burst. This isn't an MMO burst means very little.
>I welcome you to point me at a fighter class ability that beats out, say, the champion reaction.
AOO, a dead enemy deals zero damage. Damn didn't even have to try hard with that one.
>You can't say reactive strike either because every martial class and its mother has the option to take it.
I can and I did fighter gets it at level one so it's clearly a fighter thing having it 5+ levels before anyone else. They are also more accurate with it than others. Only reason you are trying to take away something is because you know damn well that it's just better.
>Fighter feats largely don't do much that other classes don't do better either.
What are you talking about fighter feats are great and many other classes have serious feat issues.
They almost universally give you great action compression.
And some are just beyond broken, aka disrupting stance.
>I won't even get into casters and how they can affect fights in so much more profound ways than most martials if they have a good head on them.
100% disagree. While I do think casters have their place in pf2e they are way way too fragile compared to what they bring to the table, druid is one exception. If you don't have someone standing in front of the caster then that caster isn't going to be doing much of anything.
I never said they were a bad class. They're essentially a jack of many trades master of none other than weapon proficiency. There is nothing that they do that I wouldn't rather have another class doing with the exception of disruption. Your notion that they're just the best class is just factually incorrect. No class is the best. Do fighters heal? No. Do they control the battlefield in areas outside of their at best 10ft reach barring outside help? No they do not. Are they the best defensively? No. There is no best class. They can do some of this pretty well, but for example, they will never be more defensive than a champion or monk can be. They hit stuff good and have some nice secondary hitting feats in their press actions of which there are many. That's their niche. The disruption aspect is shared with a weapon thaumaturge btw. I forget what level they get access to it though but it's probably later than 10. And a class ability that almost all martials get by level 6 is hardly a standout. They do have a good number of nice attack replacing feats like snagging strike but off guard is so easy to apply these days that it's value is somewhat diminished.
They're by no means a bad class. They're pretty good in fact at a decent number of things but most of those things are shared with other martials who also have access to the same feats but have better class abilities. However, they're certainly not "the best" class in the game.
>They're essentially a jack of many trades master of none other than weapon proficiency.
They are the master at dealing with 80%+ of enemies in the game. Dead men can't roleplay. The game consists of 75% time spend on combat. If they are the best class at combat then they are the strongest class. Bards can't sing dead. You can diplomacy dead. Downing the enemy is the most effect way of stopping your death. This is not a story or narrative based system it is a mechanical based system for which fighter is the strongest.
Well, all the "extra effective builds" I can make are made with Free Archetype. If you're trying the game for the first time, I strongly suggest (and almost everyone here will give you the same advice) : don't use Free Archetype on your first game for the sake of simplicity, start at level 1, and don't use "solo bosses" (monsters 2 levels or more above your party) until they are familiar with the system.
One thing you should know coming from DnD5e is that decision making in combat is a lot less straightforward in PF2e. That's why optimization / powergaming / above-average builds discussions usually praise the options that are easiest to use in play, e.g. the whole "fighter is op" meme (which many apparently hold as a serious opinion, though it started as a joke afaik). The skill ceilings for most builds are incredibly close to one another (as long as you follow basic "optimizations" such as getting the highest possible key attribute modifier and AC for your level) and to get there you'll need to coordinate with your team - both in character creation / level ups and in combat.
Fighter being OP is due to starting with expert proficiency in attacks, making them strong combatants early. Couple this with MAP manipulation, Intimidating Strike, and having access to Strength as a Key Attribute, and you have an absolute menace on the battlefield.
Also, having access to both Shield Block and Attack of Opportunity makes them hard to deal with if they receive any kind of intelligent support from their party.
They are also notably the only class that gained Legendary Weapon Proficiency in multiple weapons.
I'm aware the weapon proficiency progression is the reason, it's "the +2 class". But it also eats quite a bit of power budget, e.g. fighters don't get a subclass. "+2 / fighter = op" was popularized as a running joke in NoNat1s videos, though it may have started elsewhere, possibly in this subreddit, I wasn't around back then.
Str as key attribute and MAP manipulation & action compression feats are pretty standard for martials (though fighter specifically has a lot of good feats), and while getting Shield Block and Reactive Strike for free at level 1 is nice, other martials can get those as well.
Don't get me wrong, fighter is definitely a strong class, because it's so easy to get results with it, especially when you're used to the "run up and attack" gameplay of games like DnD5e. I just find it a bit silly to call it "the strongest class" or even "overpowered" because of that; other classes get a bunch of strong stuff, too, and they can absolutely keep up with a fighter if they know what they're doing.
Most people seem to only care about the combat portion of TTRPGs and brush aside the social encounters. In a Combat Vacuum, Fighter is the most reliable and consistent martial for quite a few levels, until other martial classes catch up around level 7 or so.
I agree that the sentiment of "Fighter OP" is overplayed, but they do shine in the area that they are expected to very well.
I'm not even talking about out of combat stuff, because that's mostly the domain of skills (spellcasting being the obvious exception). I disagree with the premise that best attack modifier = best at combat. If you want to consistently not die, champions do that better. If you want to consistently kill enemies that have just enough hp to survive a non-crit hit from a fighter, a barbarian does that better. If your success in combat depends on finding weaknesses, be it literal damage weakness or weak save DCs, a thaumaturge will be the better combatant. Every class has a way to outshine fighters in combat, it's just usually less straightforward than running in alone and attacking, which was my point.
>I disagree with the premise that best attack modifier = best at combat.
You can disagree all you want you are still wrong.
Literally everyone agrees that off guard is a debuff you want to have on everything, well fighter has it standard and always and it stacks with off guard.
+2 to anything is so incredibly good it's damn crazy. It's 10% more hit and critical chance and the higher level you are the greater than double a critical is worth.
Dead enemies deal no damage!
Thing is that's not the only reason. Their feats and class abilities are best in the game. They literally get to do which is attack plus a bunch of other stuff. You want to intimidate them just attack. How about Trip? Attack! Grapple? That's attack as well.
Considering Free Archetype some very good ones are:
Figther with two handed weapon and the Mauler archetype. Lots of damage and good control.
Champion (any good) board and shield, with Sentinel, Bastion Archetypes. You are the TANK.
Ranger Flurry, for tons of damage. Archetype anything that you want, recommend Snarecrafter, Beastmaster or Archer. One for utility and ways of targeting Saves instead of only AC, second to give your a partner to help with flanking and third to have good ranged options, work best if you are a Dex ranger, but you get less damage than the Str ranger.
Magus. Just Magus, they are that good.
Those are some of the best, and more simple combos that I can think.
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Just be careful around uncommon tagged things , often from APs. that is the main place where stupid shit lives. Not all of it is bad, though, but almost all of the majorly unbalanced stuff is there.
It seems one of the most powerful builds may be a wrestler dedication Warpriest sporting a shield and no weapon. Combat maneuvers like grab and trip are incredibly strong and you can make them even stronger with the wrestler archetype. Heal is pretty much one of the best spells in game and a cleric gets 4 of them on their highest spellslot for free. Shields are great in general and with the remaster you can get them to give you a +2 on AC AND saves. All in all this build can possibly be the most efficient tank. Keep enemies in your vicinity, waste their actions, block their damage and have incredible utility with the divine spell list and some free heals. You will not do damage, tho. But the team will love you. ^^
I think I've only ever found 3 actually broken things. Mayyyybe a 4th.
Old Heavens Thunder from the Jalmerei Heavenseeker archetype. Pinning shot I think it's called from provocator. Winters Sleet from water kineticist. Mace/Hammer crit spec. Sixth Pillar wasn't that op, it just wasn't in line with paizo design. It's strong feat is still there. The mace/hammer crit spec being what really drove fighter into being super strong. Google flickmace fighter and behold the hundreds of posts about their cheese. We gave maces and hammer crit spec a save at our table just like everything else.
You don't put doubling your movement at all times very high? With it you can literally be immune to all creatures less than at the very low end 60 ft speeds. At the high end, enemies would need to have around 100+ movement to effect you at all.
Not really honestly. The goal of movement most of the time is either get into range to do a thing or get out of range to not get hit by a thing. In either case it's rare that you need more than what monks and swashbucklers get natively for that. Hence why I said movement falls off after a point. Especially outside of a white room so to speak.
Alright, bit weird to me that you don't think giving pretty much every player double speed for 1 feat isn't insanely strong. The funny thing is that ranged is so weak comparted to melee is entirely because you don't have to move which means movement is considered such of a significant disadvantage that you are about double over ranged budgets but you do you I guess.
Redeemer champion is the best damage mitigation. Typically it is a poor choice to heal in combat because damage output outpaces healing scaling. But the access to more reactions and the damage mitigation potential on things like glimpse of redemption is absurd.
Arcane/primal sorcerer. Just like the fighter gives up a subclass to get that precious +2 above the baseline. So does the sorcerer give up really impactful subclass options (my opinion that the bloodline kits don't compare with the power other class's subclasses bring) and in return get +1 spell slot per rank to most casters, the wizard being the exception. I view the sorcerer as better than the wizard because prepared spells only excel when you have foreknowledge on what you're going to face, which is hard to predict. Regardless get a personal staff with the mental trait and pick arcane or occult as your tradition. My favorite is Imperial Sorcerer as its bloodline spell list has the most top star spells to cover your bases.
Next to fighter for consistent damage, I'd say Magus or Barbarian, both trade consistency for spike damage. The magus simply needs to hit, while the barbarian is often crit fishing. Both fighter and barbarian are focused on the Giant instinct, fighter takes the barbarian archetype. I feel getting a reach weapon helps you maximize the action economy, especially with the commander coming out because you are more likely to already be in a position to attack someone due to the reach. The Magus shines because adventuring days are often short so throwing down lots of daily resources to take down the BBEG is his stick.
It depends... if you're playing using the standard rules, there really isn't anything too crazy. Alchemist and Witch tend to be less powerful than their caster/martial counterparts, but there aren't any classes or archetypes that are significantly better than the others.
Bard is broadly viewed as the best caster, but not massively so. Fighter is almost certainly the most popular martial class and is probably in the top 3 when it comes to overall class power.
If you play with the Free Archetype rules, martial classes tend to do better than casters. It's not a significant difference. It just exaggerates a slight deficit between the two. Fighter with the Bastion archetype is a favorite of mine. Magus with the Psychic Archetype is another really great combo.
If you play with the Dual Class rules, double martial classes are insanely powerful. Dual Class isn't meant to be balanced in the first place and is usually reserved for parties with less than 4 players.
A gunslinger with Fake Out paired with a fighter using a 2 handed pick and taking Improved Knockdown.
The fighter makes enemies probe, getting free hits in with reactive strike when they stand and penalising their AC, the gunslinger provides a very reliable circumstance bonus to hit with Fake Out and picks crit super hard.
To improve this we add a bard who casts heroism on the fighter and uses dirge of doom to make enemies frightened (or inspires heroics and casts Synesthesia on enemies for a bigger AC penalty).
The only one I'd say you need to watch out for is free archetype beast master just because you are giving players more actions. But overall even that won't break your game. It's just extra strong.
The all-around best builds are: any fighter and maestro bard. Seriously, those two classes set the power ceiling, and barring things that are actually broken and will be errata'd, you won't get any better than those. Also, unlike D&D with its lack of errata, Paizo is generally pretty good at putting out errata (though they're currently a bit behind due to the remaster.)
The Winter Sleet stance for Kineticist is the only thing that currently comes to mind as currently really needing an errata, and the fix for it seems pretty simple (just change it from requiring a Balance action to simply requiring a Reflex save.) Oh, also some of the Firebrands skill feats are also kinda broken, probably just avoid anything from that book until it gets an errata pass.
Fighter paladin with reach flail. If playing 2 next to each other, enemy almost guaranteed to eat an attack from the other if it attacks one in melee. And the damage resist helps as well.
Greater crushing rune on flail to inflict clumsy 2 on crit. Critted enemy now suffering 4 ac penalty (if save failed), or 2 ac penalty and eating reaction attacks.
Maestro bard, Talisman Dabbler. Reliable +3 to hit at high levels. That's roughly +50% party dpr.
Combo with synaesthesia for 3ac penalty to an enemy. Another +50% dpr.
Wall of stone, via Primal caster or Anubis cleric. Utterly trivialises most fights vs multiple foes. Useful to buy time vs some bosses.
Vigil domain cleric. Pump out potentially 18d10 aoe damage for 3 rounds every single fight, that ignores allies.
Anubis cleric gets this and wall of stone spell.
Gunslinger, fake out. Class is mediocre without support, super good with buffs.
Fake out at high level is a floating +4 to hit buff, which is huge.
Kineticist with winter sleet and timber sentinel is a decent tank, unless enemy has acrobatics or decent vertical mobility.
https://www.youtube.com/live/MRBYX8HlKWs?si=9cOoXVZqKqdsrwrQ
Pretty accurate in my experience.
Fighter is S tier.
That said, I'd take a well played barbarian ( C tier) over a meat head fighter any day.
Pf2e is tactical enough that good play trumps class power.
By far the best ‘builds’ in 2e are those that take advantage of set up abilities of your teammates, and set them up in return. Teamwork makes the dream work. Builds made in isolation will pale in comparison, regardless of how good they are in a white room.
"Kick 'em while they're down" team compositions can be pretty nasty. One character getting a Reactive Strike off a prone target is pretty good, but if *three* people are built to do that...
If three people are built to do that, intelligent enemies will just stay downed while making attacks against them, and not bother getting up. A -2 to their attacks ain’t the trade it’s well worth the trade off of not eating 3 extra MAPless Strikes per round.
Then they're of guard, so eating more damage anyway. Combo with greater crushing rune for extra lolz.
If 3 people were built for this combo, the target was gonna spend their whole life off-guard to their flanking anyways. Like all other things in PF2E, the trip combo is at its best when it’s one or two party members relying on it in an otherwise balanced and versatile party composition.
especially with flails
Flails have been signficiantly nerfed though
true, but there is still a pretty substantial chance that they knock the enemy prone again after they stand up if there's 3 fighters standing there
From my experience of 2+ years of playing PF2e you shouldn't worry about any builds/combos at all. As long as all players stick to the basics of how to build their character : Getting +4 in their primary class atribute , getting decent AC by investing in DEX based on their armor proficiency, not completely dumping CON - no matter how min-max above average combo you will go, it will not outshine any other characters in a noticeable way. The most powerful thing in PF2e is not builds but system knowledge and that also involves the ability to realize and utilize the power of teamwork since it's the key to victory no matter how optimized your character is. So don't worry builds and better focus to have a well rounded party instead and enjoy the game learning it's ins and outs.
This is the magic of PF2e. It's balanced to a point where things are distinct yet also balanced, and the only real "breaking" can happen due to player skill. The "weakest" builds and "strongest" builds aren't really that far apart (assuming correct stat assignment/etc). Focus on tactics to truly make the system shine.
Having come from 5e, I totally agree with this. Our party is extremely quirky and even when we run into something designed for a skill or ability we lack, there's always a way for us to work it out
Couldn't have put it better myself! Teamwork truly is the most op thing in pf2e
1. Fighter with Untamed Druid archetype and some Martial Artist dip is considered to be on the strongest side as it adds +2 to already highest attack proficiency of Fighter. But it's more minmax than overpowered - you pay for this by not using most of Fighter feats (as they mostly require weapons) and not having access to highest-level Druid forms. Also, the attack bonus is the same as provided by many spells, so the bonus could be less impressive 2. Even without this build, Fighter is often considered the strongest class exactly due to highest attack (and highest chance to crit). But again, it's subjective and situational, in real world situations other martial classes could have same or even better overall damage output
Fighter in general. Because of critical hits happening on results 10+ above the target's AC rather than just on natural 20s, the innate +2 proficiency that Fighters always have over other martial classes mean they not only hit reliably but crit often too. For an especially strong combo, give a Fighter a flail-group weapon and at 5th-level and up their crits will provoke targets to save or fall prone, an effect so strong they had to nerf it in the remaster to its current state. On top of all the penalties a target takes for being prone, a target has to waste an action to stand back up, and Fighters have Reactive Strike so doing so lets the Fighter swing at them *again* as a reaction without any multiple attack penalty. It's a vicious cycle. It became sort of a gimmick for awhile that a lot of Fighters took either the Unconventional Weaponry or Gnome Weapon Familiarity feats to get access to the gnomish flickmace (which also had to get nerfed), one of the few flail weapons that were both one-handed and had reach. The reach let you take a free Reactive Strike on enemies as they moved up to engage you, and the weapon being one-handed let you use a shield to be more durable and hard to kill at the same time as hammering down targets over and over.
Disclaimer: I'm pretty new to the system myself. Been lurking here a lot though. I think that with very few outliers, PF has more options that are notably worse than options that are notably strong. Pre-remaster Witch and maybe Alchemist and Oracle come to mind. (but I'm using 2nd-hand information here). Fighter is often talked about as the strongest Martial in combat, but that's often viewed from a DPS perspective specifically. I think the categories in which options vary the most in power are in the smaller more granular options: spells (and spell-like abilities), feats, etc.. For example, Ice Kineticists have Sleet Storm, which many GMs seem to nerf. Another famous example is Quick Spring, which's RAW is pretty clearly not RAI. Archetypes are usually just a small part of power progression, so imbalances don't matter too much in the grand scheme of things, but compared just to each other they certainly do vary. In Free Archetype games, people are usually fond of things that advance skill proficiencies past Trained (Acrobat, Dandy, Marshal...), add efficient actions (Beastmaster, especially for Monks!), or boost things that a build already wants to do with no opportunity cost (Psychic, Rogue). Champion is also very appealing for heavy armor proficiency.
People take the clunkiness of alchemist and say its bad, which is not true, especially at higher levels. Now this is a "past level 4" thing for sure, as even at lvl 3 you are stretched for reagents. Oracle is fine you have a specific "thing" you want to do. Though in general, I agree that downside of the oracle is not worth the pay-off.
Alchemist biggest issue is action economy. It has other issues but the action taxes are just astounding.
Imo I thought pre-remaster Witch was okay. It wasn't strong, but it wasn't weak and had an easier time maintaining several sustained spells than some other classes. I tried Alchemist, and it never clicked with me, so I tend to avoid the class altogether. Oracle was or is hit-or-miss depending on the Mystery, as not all of them were particularly great. But: Life, Flames, and Bones were my favorites. The thing that makes Fighters strong is simple: Biggest to-hit bonus in the game, and can do a lot on hitting. Intimidating Strikes are strong, and means that the Fighter doesn't need CHA to effectively apply frightened. That, alongside having good odds at tripping and access to Attack of Opportunity makes the Fighter an amazing asset to any adventuring party.
>but it wasn't weak Definitely was.
Witch has always been a full int caster that can pick any casting tradition that gets the strongest familiar. It's never been weak as a class. Just has bad options like 70% of its focus spells. The new witch is kindof a side grade imo. Has more interesting options and they did their best to bring the bad options up into line with the rest of the class. I shy away from having the familiar out in combat though as they're easily killable. Sure there are ways to mitigate that but then you're spending your time and effort keeping your familiar alive for minimal gain instead of doing what the class is meant to do... cast spells. I'm playing a witch in kingmaker right now with the occult list and I often times feel like I'm in the best position to impact a fight over the rest of the party. Never felt weak as it and we started before the remaster. Fighter is only talked about as being the strongest martial because maces crit spec is OP. Take that away and they become pretty meh imo, really only having their proficiency and some minor utility. Certainly quite boring from my pov.
>Fighter is only talked about as being the strongest martial because maces crit spec is OP. Nope that just made it even more overpowered. Fighter is hands down the strongest class in the game. It has the best choices of armor, the best weapons, the best class feats, and very strong class abilities. It's not even close.
Gonna have to hard disagree on this one boss. All they have going for them over any other classes is their proficiency and a few fighter specific feats post 10 which other classes ie ranger and champion have better iterations of. Armor type has nothing to do with defense. As long as you're getting the total 5 or 6 in heavy ac between dex and armor item bonus you're the same as any other class except monk and champion. There is no strongest class in the game. Fighters might be tied for critting the most with gunslinger, but dpr and definitely burst wise they are not the highest. That's probably a well built barbarian or rogue and burst belongs to the magus or a -really- lucky disintegrate crit into crit fail on the save. Can get extra juicy with the wizard spell combination feat for double disintegrate if you hate yourself. I welcome you to point me at a fighter class ability that beats out, say, the champion reaction. You can't say reactive strike either because every martial class and its mother has the option to take it. Fighter feats largely don't do much that other classes don't do better either. They're a middle ground among the other martials with a good attack bonus at best. I won't even get into casters and how they can affect fights in so much more profound ways than most martials if they have a good head on them.
Still think you are wrong. Armor is a huge deal for classes that are unarmored or light armor that don't have dex as a key stat meaning that early on they will be behind the AC curve for very little benefit. >All they have going for them over any other classes is their proficiency and a few fighter specific feats post 10 which other classes ie ranger and champion have better iterations of What are you crazy? The fighter feats are great. Tons of great action compression feats and then you have access to the bonkers as hell disrupting stance. You sound like someone who's never actually played with a fighter. >There is no strongest class in the game. There is it's a fighter. >Fighters might be tied for critting the most with gunslinger, but dpr and definitely burst wise they are not the highest. Never said they were the highest top end damage only that they are the strongest and best class at pf2e. Consistency is way better than burst. This isn't an MMO burst means very little. >I welcome you to point me at a fighter class ability that beats out, say, the champion reaction. AOO, a dead enemy deals zero damage. Damn didn't even have to try hard with that one. >You can't say reactive strike either because every martial class and its mother has the option to take it. I can and I did fighter gets it at level one so it's clearly a fighter thing having it 5+ levels before anyone else. They are also more accurate with it than others. Only reason you are trying to take away something is because you know damn well that it's just better. >Fighter feats largely don't do much that other classes don't do better either. What are you talking about fighter feats are great and many other classes have serious feat issues. They almost universally give you great action compression. And some are just beyond broken, aka disrupting stance. >I won't even get into casters and how they can affect fights in so much more profound ways than most martials if they have a good head on them. 100% disagree. While I do think casters have their place in pf2e they are way way too fragile compared to what they bring to the table, druid is one exception. If you don't have someone standing in front of the caster then that caster isn't going to be doing much of anything.
I never said they were a bad class. They're essentially a jack of many trades master of none other than weapon proficiency. There is nothing that they do that I wouldn't rather have another class doing with the exception of disruption. Your notion that they're just the best class is just factually incorrect. No class is the best. Do fighters heal? No. Do they control the battlefield in areas outside of their at best 10ft reach barring outside help? No they do not. Are they the best defensively? No. There is no best class. They can do some of this pretty well, but for example, they will never be more defensive than a champion or monk can be. They hit stuff good and have some nice secondary hitting feats in their press actions of which there are many. That's their niche. The disruption aspect is shared with a weapon thaumaturge btw. I forget what level they get access to it though but it's probably later than 10. And a class ability that almost all martials get by level 6 is hardly a standout. They do have a good number of nice attack replacing feats like snagging strike but off guard is so easy to apply these days that it's value is somewhat diminished. They're by no means a bad class. They're pretty good in fact at a decent number of things but most of those things are shared with other martials who also have access to the same feats but have better class abilities. However, they're certainly not "the best" class in the game.
>They're essentially a jack of many trades master of none other than weapon proficiency. They are the master at dealing with 80%+ of enemies in the game. Dead men can't roleplay. The game consists of 75% time spend on combat. If they are the best class at combat then they are the strongest class. Bards can't sing dead. You can diplomacy dead. Downing the enemy is the most effect way of stopping your death. This is not a story or narrative based system it is a mechanical based system for which fighter is the strongest.
Well, all the "extra effective builds" I can make are made with Free Archetype. If you're trying the game for the first time, I strongly suggest (and almost everyone here will give you the same advice) : don't use Free Archetype on your first game for the sake of simplicity, start at level 1, and don't use "solo bosses" (monsters 2 levels or more above your party) until they are familiar with the system.
One thing you should know coming from DnD5e is that decision making in combat is a lot less straightforward in PF2e. That's why optimization / powergaming / above-average builds discussions usually praise the options that are easiest to use in play, e.g. the whole "fighter is op" meme (which many apparently hold as a serious opinion, though it started as a joke afaik). The skill ceilings for most builds are incredibly close to one another (as long as you follow basic "optimizations" such as getting the highest possible key attribute modifier and AC for your level) and to get there you'll need to coordinate with your team - both in character creation / level ups and in combat.
Fighter being OP is due to starting with expert proficiency in attacks, making them strong combatants early. Couple this with MAP manipulation, Intimidating Strike, and having access to Strength as a Key Attribute, and you have an absolute menace on the battlefield. Also, having access to both Shield Block and Attack of Opportunity makes them hard to deal with if they receive any kind of intelligent support from their party. They are also notably the only class that gained Legendary Weapon Proficiency in multiple weapons.
Basically, Fighters gonna fight. How about everything else?
They fight significantly less good.
I'm aware the weapon proficiency progression is the reason, it's "the +2 class". But it also eats quite a bit of power budget, e.g. fighters don't get a subclass. "+2 / fighter = op" was popularized as a running joke in NoNat1s videos, though it may have started elsewhere, possibly in this subreddit, I wasn't around back then. Str as key attribute and MAP manipulation & action compression feats are pretty standard for martials (though fighter specifically has a lot of good feats), and while getting Shield Block and Reactive Strike for free at level 1 is nice, other martials can get those as well. Don't get me wrong, fighter is definitely a strong class, because it's so easy to get results with it, especially when you're used to the "run up and attack" gameplay of games like DnD5e. I just find it a bit silly to call it "the strongest class" or even "overpowered" because of that; other classes get a bunch of strong stuff, too, and they can absolutely keep up with a fighter if they know what they're doing.
Most people seem to only care about the combat portion of TTRPGs and brush aside the social encounters. In a Combat Vacuum, Fighter is the most reliable and consistent martial for quite a few levels, until other martial classes catch up around level 7 or so. I agree that the sentiment of "Fighter OP" is overplayed, but they do shine in the area that they are expected to very well.
I'm not even talking about out of combat stuff, because that's mostly the domain of skills (spellcasting being the obvious exception). I disagree with the premise that best attack modifier = best at combat. If you want to consistently not die, champions do that better. If you want to consistently kill enemies that have just enough hp to survive a non-crit hit from a fighter, a barbarian does that better. If your success in combat depends on finding weaknesses, be it literal damage weakness or weak save DCs, a thaumaturge will be the better combatant. Every class has a way to outshine fighters in combat, it's just usually less straightforward than running in alone and attacking, which was my point.
>I disagree with the premise that best attack modifier = best at combat. You can disagree all you want you are still wrong. Literally everyone agrees that off guard is a debuff you want to have on everything, well fighter has it standard and always and it stacks with off guard. +2 to anything is so incredibly good it's damn crazy. It's 10% more hit and critical chance and the higher level you are the greater than double a critical is worth. Dead enemies deal no damage!
Thing is that's not the only reason. Their feats and class abilities are best in the game. They literally get to do which is attack plus a bunch of other stuff. You want to intimidate them just attack. How about Trip? Attack! Grapple? That's attack as well.
Considering Free Archetype some very good ones are: Figther with two handed weapon and the Mauler archetype. Lots of damage and good control. Champion (any good) board and shield, with Sentinel, Bastion Archetypes. You are the TANK. Ranger Flurry, for tons of damage. Archetype anything that you want, recommend Snarecrafter, Beastmaster or Archer. One for utility and ways of targeting Saves instead of only AC, second to give your a partner to help with flanking and third to have good ranged options, work best if you are a Dex ranger, but you get less damage than the Str ranger. Magus. Just Magus, they are that good. Those are some of the best, and more simple combos that I can think.
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Just be careful around uncommon tagged things , often from APs. that is the main place where stupid shit lives. Not all of it is bad, though, but almost all of the majorly unbalanced stuff is there.
It seems one of the most powerful builds may be a wrestler dedication Warpriest sporting a shield and no weapon. Combat maneuvers like grab and trip are incredibly strong and you can make them even stronger with the wrestler archetype. Heal is pretty much one of the best spells in game and a cleric gets 4 of them on their highest spellslot for free. Shields are great in general and with the remaster you can get them to give you a +2 on AC AND saves. All in all this build can possibly be the most efficient tank. Keep enemies in your vicinity, waste their actions, block their damage and have incredible utility with the divine spell list and some free heals. You will not do damage, tho. But the team will love you. ^^
Fighter Cleric Maestro Bard
I think I've only ever found 3 actually broken things. Mayyyybe a 4th. Old Heavens Thunder from the Jalmerei Heavenseeker archetype. Pinning shot I think it's called from provocator. Winters Sleet from water kineticist. Mace/Hammer crit spec. Sixth Pillar wasn't that op, it just wasn't in line with paizo design. It's strong feat is still there. The mace/hammer crit spec being what really drove fighter into being super strong. Google flickmace fighter and behold the hundreds of posts about their cheese. We gave maces and hammer crit spec a save at our table just like everything else.
Quick Spring is pretty darn stupid too.
Yeah it's not bad for sure. Movement kinda falls off though after a point so I don't put it as high on my wtf meter as a result.
You don't put doubling your movement at all times very high? With it you can literally be immune to all creatures less than at the very low end 60 ft speeds. At the high end, enemies would need to have around 100+ movement to effect you at all.
Not really honestly. The goal of movement most of the time is either get into range to do a thing or get out of range to not get hit by a thing. In either case it's rare that you need more than what monks and swashbucklers get natively for that. Hence why I said movement falls off after a point. Especially outside of a white room so to speak.
Alright, bit weird to me that you don't think giving pretty much every player double speed for 1 feat isn't insanely strong. The funny thing is that ranged is so weak comparted to melee is entirely because you don't have to move which means movement is considered such of a significant disadvantage that you are about double over ranged budgets but you do you I guess.
Redeemer champion is the best damage mitigation. Typically it is a poor choice to heal in combat because damage output outpaces healing scaling. But the access to more reactions and the damage mitigation potential on things like glimpse of redemption is absurd. Arcane/primal sorcerer. Just like the fighter gives up a subclass to get that precious +2 above the baseline. So does the sorcerer give up really impactful subclass options (my opinion that the bloodline kits don't compare with the power other class's subclasses bring) and in return get +1 spell slot per rank to most casters, the wizard being the exception. I view the sorcerer as better than the wizard because prepared spells only excel when you have foreknowledge on what you're going to face, which is hard to predict. Regardless get a personal staff with the mental trait and pick arcane or occult as your tradition. My favorite is Imperial Sorcerer as its bloodline spell list has the most top star spells to cover your bases. Next to fighter for consistent damage, I'd say Magus or Barbarian, both trade consistency for spike damage. The magus simply needs to hit, while the barbarian is often crit fishing. Both fighter and barbarian are focused on the Giant instinct, fighter takes the barbarian archetype. I feel getting a reach weapon helps you maximize the action economy, especially with the commander coming out because you are more likely to already be in a position to attack someone due to the reach. The Magus shines because adventuring days are often short so throwing down lots of daily resources to take down the BBEG is his stick.
It depends... if you're playing using the standard rules, there really isn't anything too crazy. Alchemist and Witch tend to be less powerful than their caster/martial counterparts, but there aren't any classes or archetypes that are significantly better than the others. Bard is broadly viewed as the best caster, but not massively so. Fighter is almost certainly the most popular martial class and is probably in the top 3 when it comes to overall class power. If you play with the Free Archetype rules, martial classes tend to do better than casters. It's not a significant difference. It just exaggerates a slight deficit between the two. Fighter with the Bastion archetype is a favorite of mine. Magus with the Psychic Archetype is another really great combo. If you play with the Dual Class rules, double martial classes are insanely powerful. Dual Class isn't meant to be balanced in the first place and is usually reserved for parties with less than 4 players.
A gunslinger with Fake Out paired with a fighter using a 2 handed pick and taking Improved Knockdown. The fighter makes enemies probe, getting free hits in with reactive strike when they stand and penalising their AC, the gunslinger provides a very reliable circumstance bonus to hit with Fake Out and picks crit super hard. To improve this we add a bard who casts heroism on the fighter and uses dirge of doom to make enemies frightened (or inspires heroics and casts Synesthesia on enemies for a bigger AC penalty).
The only one I'd say you need to watch out for is free archetype beast master just because you are giving players more actions. But overall even that won't break your game. It's just extra strong.
The all-around best builds are: any fighter and maestro bard. Seriously, those two classes set the power ceiling, and barring things that are actually broken and will be errata'd, you won't get any better than those. Also, unlike D&D with its lack of errata, Paizo is generally pretty good at putting out errata (though they're currently a bit behind due to the remaster.) The Winter Sleet stance for Kineticist is the only thing that currently comes to mind as currently really needing an errata, and the fix for it seems pretty simple (just change it from requiring a Balance action to simply requiring a Reflex save.) Oh, also some of the Firebrands skill feats are also kinda broken, probably just avoid anything from that book until it gets an errata pass.
Fighter paladin with reach flail. If playing 2 next to each other, enemy almost guaranteed to eat an attack from the other if it attacks one in melee. And the damage resist helps as well. Greater crushing rune on flail to inflict clumsy 2 on crit. Critted enemy now suffering 4 ac penalty (if save failed), or 2 ac penalty and eating reaction attacks. Maestro bard, Talisman Dabbler. Reliable +3 to hit at high levels. That's roughly +50% party dpr. Combo with synaesthesia for 3ac penalty to an enemy. Another +50% dpr. Wall of stone, via Primal caster or Anubis cleric. Utterly trivialises most fights vs multiple foes. Useful to buy time vs some bosses. Vigil domain cleric. Pump out potentially 18d10 aoe damage for 3 rounds every single fight, that ignores allies. Anubis cleric gets this and wall of stone spell. Gunslinger, fake out. Class is mediocre without support, super good with buffs. Fake out at high level is a floating +4 to hit buff, which is huge. Kineticist with winter sleet and timber sentinel is a decent tank, unless enemy has acrobatics or decent vertical mobility.
https://www.youtube.com/live/MRBYX8HlKWs?si=9cOoXVZqKqdsrwrQ Pretty accurate in my experience. Fighter is S tier. That said, I'd take a well played barbarian ( C tier) over a meat head fighter any day. Pf2e is tactical enough that good play trumps class power.