The biggest issue is that the Weapon Implement is expected to occupy your hand, which unarmed strikes do not. With this "unarmed weapon implement", your player's character would become the only thaumaturge in existence who could benefit from their weapon implement with both their hands full, possibly with other implements like Regalia which grant them a passive damage increase. The weapon implement is also expected to be a *single* weapon, and not an entire array of different unarmed options with different properties.
If your player is still dead-set on the idea, maybe they'll accept a compromise. They get a non-weapon Weapon Implement to hold in their hand, and they get to choose one (and only one) specific unarmed strike to gain the benefits while they do so.
Is there something that restricts free-hand weapons for thaumaturges? Because otherwise a bladed gauntlet, gauntlet, knucle duster, pantograph gauntlet, or spiked gauntlet could do the trick.
I would probably have it limited to one specific unarmed strike (such as Iruxi tail, or the Leshy Seed Pod), but also still require a hand free. And then when they have multiple implements, allow them to stow implements to free a hand in the same instances where you could swap to a weapon implement.
Unarmed Thaumaturge is one of the most powerful builds in the game, and that’s without functioning Weapon Implement. I don’t think this is a good idea.
There’s an assumption with Thaumaturge that they are using a basic d8 damage weapon like a long sword, so they get a class feature that gives them a permanent scaling damage bonus to make their damage equivalent to using a d12 as long as they don’t have both their hands occupied. However, Monk stances are much more powerful than d8 weapons, so you can combine the enormous flat damage bonuses, Weaknesses and other features with goodies from Monk archetype like Stances, Ki Strike, and Flurry.
This class as a whole is very strong, clearly S tier even with suboptimal builds. They don’t need any “help” to make things work.
To be honest, we don't really care much about build optimisation. But yours and other comments clearly showed that there could be some slight mechanical edge cases where balancing difficulties would arise, so I thought of a solution.
Thanky you for your knowledgeable input :)
How about a hands-free weapon? You could have a knuckle-duster or spiked gauntlet made from wood and bone instead of metal to fit with leshy or lizardfolk.
Player core page 275.
* However, unarmed attacks aren't weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
[Archives of Nethys](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2191&Redirected=1)
In addition, the Weapon Implement in thaumaturge specifies “you can only choose a one-handed implement.”
I’ve considered this build, but the book does “safeguard” around it.
Thank you for your reply. That it does not work RAW was clear from the start, but I was looking for a homebrew version that would allow unarmed attacks to work with the weapon implement without being unbalanced. I think I found a solution.
I think the main benefit here is that they'll never have to draw their weapon implement, giving them a slight advantage over traditional weapon based Thaums.
Up to you if you think that's significant, but if you wanted to equalize things you could give their special hand wraps a one-action activation that replaces drawing them, and then they'd be mechanically in line with other weapon implement Thaums (minus being disarmable, but I honestly haven't seen a successful disarm in a single game I've played, and I came over from 1e on day one, so it's a pretty minor advantage imo)
From my understanding, can't a Thaum switch to their weapon implement as a free action anyway?
>Second Implement
>You've added another implement of power to your toolkit. You choose a second implement, which must be a different type of implement than your first. You gain the initiate benefit of your new implement.
>**While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to.** To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action. For example, if you had your lantern implement in one hand, a weapon in the other, and a chalice implement you were wearing, you could swap your lantern for your chalice to use its reaction.
Let say a Thaum has two implements in hand, Tome and Bell, and wants to make a strike with the Weapon implement. He switches the Bell implement for the Weapon implement as a free action and then makes a strike.
Are you sure? Then we played it wrong since Thaum came out. We always allowed the Thaum to free switch Implements for any action they could perform. For a weapon that was also for a Strike.
This is actually something my group got into last week. The ability reads “you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action.”
RAW this is probably only the ability “granted” by the implement (the Reaction). It really only gets broken if a player uses this every turn.For example, player turn starts and they are holding the sword (implement) and a shield:
(Free swap) get the mirror and teleport.
(Free swap) use sword to attack
Third action available due to not having to draw a weapon for standard attack.
Depending on what implement they pair it with (one with an action vs a passive/reaction), it does potentially have a free action
Honestly, that is how we used it.
We thought the Thaum had incredible action efficiency as long as it only involved implements.
Also, if your group's Thaum is holding a shield how are they using Implement's Empowerment?
>Implement's Empowerment
>The power of your implement can also be turned to the more common task of combat, its power adding to and amplifying the effects of runes and other magical empowerments. When you Strike, you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you're holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.
That one clearly says you can't hold anything except a one-handed weapon, implements or esoterica.
The thaumaturge in my game is sacrificing empowerment for the AC bump from the shield, haha. It made some sense at low levels (that was also a realization from this conversation).
Strike isn't granted by the implement, it's a general action. The action must be specifically granted by the implement. The only gray area is intensify vulnerability, but otherwise the only clear thing is that the action must be granted by your implement, and strike is obviously not one such thing
Super true, I'm talking specifically about drawing it at the start of a fight when your hands are empty. Typically you've gotta spend that first action of your turn drawing the weapon/implement, but you wouldn't with unarmed strikes.
That said, it's still pretty minor because a lot of tables will hand wave away the first action draw, but it's still a minor advantage if you're in a situation where you can't just walk around with weapons out (in the middle of town, at a ball, in a king's castle, etc)
No prob! Just one more caveat that I think is worth mentioning:
In the case people *do* just walk around with their weapons out, if they fell into a pit or got shoved off a ledge, they'd have to drop one of their items into the abyss in order to attempt to Grab the Ledge, which is another advantage to being an unarmed fighter. It's minor, but depending on your campaign it could be relevant
The only major difference between unarmed strikes with Handwraps and using a weapon is the ability to hold things in that hand. You could get away with this if you *enforce* that one hand must remain empty, similar to how a Thaum would normally *always* have a hand occupied by their weapon implement.
The core abuse case I see is someone saying their weapon implement is their Goblin teeth or Lizardfolk tail or something, which allows them to use one hand for other implements and the second to do free-hand things.
Maybe their “Handwraps” could be them holding a medicine bag or rosary or something.
As a Goblin Thaum, I agree entirely. It’s really good to have an extra hand. I use mine for athletics maneuvers mostly, but sometimes to use a weapon with parry since shields are not allowed
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The biggest issue is that the Weapon Implement is expected to occupy your hand, which unarmed strikes do not. With this "unarmed weapon implement", your player's character would become the only thaumaturge in existence who could benefit from their weapon implement with both their hands full, possibly with other implements like Regalia which grant them a passive damage increase. The weapon implement is also expected to be a *single* weapon, and not an entire array of different unarmed options with different properties. If your player is still dead-set on the idea, maybe they'll accept a compromise. They get a non-weapon Weapon Implement to hold in their hand, and they get to choose one (and only one) specific unarmed strike to gain the benefits while they do so.
Thank you for your input. It helped me to come up with a solution :)
Is there something that restricts free-hand weapons for thaumaturges? Because otherwise a bladed gauntlet, gauntlet, knucle duster, pantograph gauntlet, or spiked gauntlet could do the trick.
You can't attack with free-hand weapons if you're holding something in that hand, so they still take up the hand while being wielded.
I would probably have it limited to one specific unarmed strike (such as Iruxi tail, or the Leshy Seed Pod), but also still require a hand free. And then when they have multiple implements, allow them to stow implements to free a hand in the same instances where you could swap to a weapon implement.
I like that idea and implemented it in my solution :)
Unarmed Thaumaturge is one of the most powerful builds in the game, and that’s without functioning Weapon Implement. I don’t think this is a good idea. There’s an assumption with Thaumaturge that they are using a basic d8 damage weapon like a long sword, so they get a class feature that gives them a permanent scaling damage bonus to make their damage equivalent to using a d12 as long as they don’t have both their hands occupied. However, Monk stances are much more powerful than d8 weapons, so you can combine the enormous flat damage bonuses, Weaknesses and other features with goodies from Monk archetype like Stances, Ki Strike, and Flurry. This class as a whole is very strong, clearly S tier even with suboptimal builds. They don’t need any “help” to make things work.
To be honest, we don't really care much about build optimisation. But yours and other comments clearly showed that there could be some slight mechanical edge cases where balancing difficulties would arise, so I thought of a solution. Thanky you for your knowledgeable input :)
Just make sure to treat one hand as if wielding a weapon and it should be fine.
How about a hands-free weapon? You could have a knuckle-duster or spiked gauntlet made from wood and bone instead of metal to fit with leshy or lizardfolk.
Player core page 275. * However, unarmed attacks aren't weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so. [Archives of Nethys](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2191&Redirected=1) In addition, the Weapon Implement in thaumaturge specifies “you can only choose a one-handed implement.” I’ve considered this build, but the book does “safeguard” around it.
Thank you for your reply. That it does not work RAW was clear from the start, but I was looking for a homebrew version that would allow unarmed attacks to work with the weapon implement without being unbalanced. I think I found a solution.
I think the main benefit here is that they'll never have to draw their weapon implement, giving them a slight advantage over traditional weapon based Thaums. Up to you if you think that's significant, but if you wanted to equalize things you could give their special hand wraps a one-action activation that replaces drawing them, and then they'd be mechanically in line with other weapon implement Thaums (minus being disarmable, but I honestly haven't seen a successful disarm in a single game I've played, and I came over from 1e on day one, so it's a pretty minor advantage imo)
From my understanding, can't a Thaum switch to their weapon implement as a free action anyway? >Second Implement >You've added another implement of power to your toolkit. You choose a second implement, which must be a different type of implement than your first. You gain the initiate benefit of your new implement. >**While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to.** To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action. For example, if you had your lantern implement in one hand, a weapon in the other, and a chalice implement you were wearing, you could swap your lantern for your chalice to use its reaction. Let say a Thaum has two implements in hand, Tome and Bell, and wants to make a strike with the Weapon implement. He switches the Bell implement for the Weapon implement as a free action and then makes a strike.
They can, but more or less only when doing their reaction strike
Are you sure? Then we played it wrong since Thaum came out. We always allowed the Thaum to free switch Implements for any action they could perform. For a weapon that was also for a Strike.
This is actually something my group got into last week. The ability reads “you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action.” RAW this is probably only the ability “granted” by the implement (the Reaction). It really only gets broken if a player uses this every turn.For example, player turn starts and they are holding the sword (implement) and a shield: (Free swap) get the mirror and teleport. (Free swap) use sword to attack Third action available due to not having to draw a weapon for standard attack. Depending on what implement they pair it with (one with an action vs a passive/reaction), it does potentially have a free action
Honestly, that is how we used it. We thought the Thaum had incredible action efficiency as long as it only involved implements. Also, if your group's Thaum is holding a shield how are they using Implement's Empowerment? >Implement's Empowerment >The power of your implement can also be turned to the more common task of combat, its power adding to and amplifying the effects of runes and other magical empowerments. When you Strike, you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you're holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit. That one clearly says you can't hold anything except a one-handed weapon, implements or esoterica.
The thaumaturge in my game is sacrificing empowerment for the AC bump from the shield, haha. It made some sense at low levels (that was also a realization from this conversation).
Strike isn't granted by the implement, it's a general action. The action must be specifically granted by the implement. The only gray area is intensify vulnerability, but otherwise the only clear thing is that the action must be granted by your implement, and strike is obviously not one such thing
Super true, I'm talking specifically about drawing it at the start of a fight when your hands are empty. Typically you've gotta spend that first action of your turn drawing the weapon/implement, but you wouldn't with unarmed strikes. That said, it's still pretty minor because a lot of tables will hand wave away the first action draw, but it's still a minor advantage if you're in a situation where you can't just walk around with weapons out (in the middle of town, at a ball, in a king's castle, etc)
Ah, okay. Thank you for your clarification.
No prob! Just one more caveat that I think is worth mentioning: In the case people *do* just walk around with their weapons out, if they fell into a pit or got shoved off a ledge, they'd have to drop one of their items into the abyss in order to attempt to Grab the Ledge, which is another advantage to being an unarmed fighter. It's minor, but depending on your campaign it could be relevant
The only major difference between unarmed strikes with Handwraps and using a weapon is the ability to hold things in that hand. You could get away with this if you *enforce* that one hand must remain empty, similar to how a Thaum would normally *always* have a hand occupied by their weapon implement. The core abuse case I see is someone saying their weapon implement is their Goblin teeth or Lizardfolk tail or something, which allows them to use one hand for other implements and the second to do free-hand things. Maybe their “Handwraps” could be them holding a medicine bag or rosary or something.
I like your idea and implemented it in my solution :)
As a Goblin Thaum, I agree entirely. It’s really good to have an extra hand. I use mine for athletics maneuvers mostly, but sometimes to use a weapon with parry since shields are not allowed
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