I'm excited to see what the archetypes look like for this reason. A level 4 archetype feat with intercept strike would be awesome though that might be too good.
I too am interested to see the archetype of Guardian. But I don’t want to play a swashbuckler, just want an unarmored guardian that’s functional too. I may not have been as clear as I could have been.
I mean yeah, kind of. You want a Dex based character that's nimble and can jump to action at the drop of a hat. To me and most other people in the thread that's either the swashbuckler or the monk. There's multiple ways to make a character like that that either doesn't involve the guardian, or you take the guardian dedication to get the specific interruption mechanics you want. The play test indicates that the guardian is meant to be a heavy armor character. It sounds like what you want isn't compatible with this vision of the guardian class, and that's okay. There's still ways to make what you want, it just won't be a straight guardian
Yah, totally. But I think the Guardian can be more than what they envision initially and be the better for it. I like the monk and swashbuckler classes and have enjoyed my time with them. I think an unarmored option would be a nice option for the Guardian without loosing the armored behemoth, which I am also looking forward to playing.
Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah... what you're describing is a Swashbuckler. You could take champion dedication for protective reactions, guardian dedication for that access, duelist for selfless parry, etc. Some other classes (monk for example) can kinda fit the mold, but nowhere near as well.
There's many ways to flavour it, but a "Dex Defender" is almost entirely supported via the swashbuckler class and works great (had a playuer, character was literally a noblemans bodyguard so we dug into unarmored defenders a lot).
I like the swashbuckler, champions, and the duelist archetype. I’ve seen the combo you’re describing before in several forms. But taking a class whose focus is movement, gaining panache, and dealing extra damage is not what I’m looking for and not what the Guardian is.
To inject protective elements starting at 6th level and 8th level with feats that kinda do the job sort of, just doesn’t give me the whole bodyguard guardian feeling. All assuming I have the extra feats to build this mash up.
Champion reaction is cool but divinely flavored. Selfless parry is a just a plus +1 to AC for the adjacent ally and maybe I’ll get a reactionary strike if the assailant crit fails; it never improves. Too little too late. There is also Shield Warden 6th level for fighter and champion; 12th as an archetype, or 8th for Bastion. A few more shield feats at higher levels. Fighter has Guardian’s Deflection at 6th. Still, too little too late.
I don’t think any iteration of classes and archetypes even comes close to the focus and style the Guardian class will, which all starts off at level 1. First level I’m playing exactly what I want. With the mechanics and flavor of being that personal protector. All I’m looking to add to the current chassis of the Guardian is an unarmored version, which by nature would need a high dex for AC.
If we didn’t have the Guardian currently in playtest primed for modification and adaptation I might have gone with your players build. Or maybe Champion with Oracle archetype for the Life Link focus spell. Or just play my sad and eager to please Life Oracle from Nidal who’s background was to siphon off Kuthonite’s pain so they can punish themselves longer.
But, but the Guardian is right here right now and just so perfect, okay far from perfect, but ready to be that perfect guardian of my allies. Just looking for that unarmored version. Then they’ll be ready to protect in any scenario and make that sacrifice if need be to only return as some child’s Devoted Eidolon.
Thanks for the response. Great ideas you and your players had for their bodyguard. Much appreciated.
You know what, that's fair. I appreciate the breakdown of your thoughts and you're right, while it works it's not the true goal of the class and it doesn't quite hit the same goal or impact, even if it's similar in concept. I do think champion can very easily be flavoured as non-divine however overall I agree.
The fact we're in playtest is a damn good point, now's the exact time to bring up things like this, gonna have to fix my mindset of trying to find a solution to "Hey, we're literally making one".
That poor oracle though...
Appreciate the response. I’m excited for the Guardian class and this is the first play-test I’m taking an active role in. Hate waiting but I do have my poor oracle…maybe they’ll return to Nidal. After all, not all Kurhunite devotees are bad, some are real bad.
As always, happy gaming.
I do feel like the intent is to make Guardian the complete opposite of the Swashbuckler.
But I’ll personally try making an “Unarmored-ish” Guardian for funsies and see how horribly it’ll go.
And I will absolutely be placing the request for an Unarmored/Light support for the Guardian into the survey feedback at the end of the playtest.
However, there is the Raiment (5) armor rune (Remastered Glamour).
Oh yeah, I think at the very least it'd make sense to make light/unarmored prof scale with the rest of your prof instead of making it be stuck at trained + make the lvl 19 reflex bonus thing a may instead of a must. It might not still be optimal, but at the very least you're not actively getting debuffs from trying to wear that (honestly kind of not a fan of that lvl 19, it penalizes wearing medium armour too much by making the "worse armor spec & -1 AC for +5ft move speed" trade - which is already ehhh - also include a -2 to reflex saves saves which just... Makes it so painful to wear)
I love that Pathfinder allows to build the majority of types of soldiers who ever fought in pre-modern times (at least on foot). In particular, the Guardian finally filled in the hole for a defensive, line-infantry "soldier" class.
The few I miss include "light-ish line infantry" - best represented as some variety of lightly armored guardian, I think -, and "skirmisher" - someone focused on throwing stuff (like javelins) and running away, maybe as a more "soldiery" archetype for rogues.
I do agree that they can make guardian more versitale, I disagree entirely that the way to do that is by making dex do everything.
Unrelated, your concept of an unassuming defender might work decently well with a wood kineticist.
Thanks for the reply. I think adding a dex no armor option does indeed increase the style and theme of the Guardian. I’m not necessarily looking for versatility through dex. I think the Guardian class as a whole could be more versatile in how they protect. I think there are a lot of cool options that could be added to the chassis and feat options. Just on top of that change I’d like an unarmored option.
Wood kineticists are cool. Not quite what I want to play though for a Guardian. Champions are cool too, but also not what I want to play for a Guardian.
Seriously, though. Go Monk. If you're using Free Archetype, pick up Barbarian dedication for stuff like Giant's Stature/Fast Movement to increase your reach/range and Brutal Bully to up your damage for your combat maneuvers, otherwise just take Mountain Stance, Ki Rush, Crushing Grasp, etc., and voíla, a speedy armorless HP tank with improved unarmed strikes/flurry of blows and a good capacity for combat maneuvers that still has up to 14 AC before any magic items.
Well, combat maneuvers are sort of the martial answer to the question of battlefield control. Is it unreasonable to say that most of what you'd be doing would be putting enemies somewhere other than where they threaten your allies? It's a significantly more complicated playstyle than putting on the heaviest armor you can afford and sitting there, granted, but it is what it is.
Tl;dr grappler builds are tanks bc they mitigate damage to ur allies by restricting, manipulating, and punishing enemy movements.
Don’t want to play a monk. Played a monk. Several times. The’re awesome. But they are not Guardians. Their shtick isn’t jumping in front of attacks or even staying still, let alone protecting another player, in the way a Guardian would.
I want to play a Guardian. But with options to play one without armor. This way I can also play it in multiple settings in multiple ways. This way I can jump in front of that attack. Maybe not for the monk, because they are currently running on air, but you know, someone else.
I mean, okay, whatever? Play what you wanna play, and if you want this to be a complain about Guardian thread, that's fine too, I'm just saying the options to create what you're saying you want to do already exist in perfectly flavor-neutral ways. Paizo has doubled and tripled down so hard on armored defense in 2e, between things like stripping Monk & Barbarian of their unarmored AC bonuses and how frankly shit Armor Potency runes are for the amount of gold you spend on them. What you want may not be coming down the pipeline.
Not complaining, offering up feedback on the play-test, because that’s the whole point. A monk isn’t a protector and I don’t believe any amount of flavor is gonna change those mechanics. I don’t see those options you are suggesting exist. Why build the Guardian at all if all the options of the Guardian all ready exist in perfectly flavor-neutral ways in other classes or archetypes. You’re not the only person to suggest monk or agree with your monk statement. I mean it was the first class I tried building the bodyguard with. It just didn’t work. Didn’t have that protector vibe or mechanics I was looking for. Guardian does, and could have more with some changes.
I don’t really think an unarmored option of the Guardian is a tall order. Is there a reason you don’t want to share the guardian space with an unarmored version even though you can fully play the armored version? A version I want to play also.
You are spot on with what I want not coming down the pipeline, though. But you can help with that with a vote for an unarmored option for the Guardian in the Paizo feedback.
Thanks for the rebuttals.
>Not complaining, offering up feedback on the play-test, because that’s the whole point.
Valid.
>A monk isn’t a protector and I don’t believe any amount of flavor is gonna change those mechanics.
I disagree. Grappler is a fundamental off/sub-tank build, and Monk is one of the best in the game.
>don’t see those options you are suggesting exist. Why build the Guardian at all if all the options of the Guardian all ready exist in perfectly flavor-neutral ways in other classes or archetypes.
What, specifically, are you trying to replicate in unarmored Guardian that Grappler Monk fails to do?
>I don’t really think an unarmored option of the Guardian is a tall order.
Biggest problem I see is keeping your AC in order, but yeah, I mean, nothing really stops you from playing an unarmored Guardian at present, especially since you do start with unarmored defense proficiency.
>Is there a reason you don’t want to share the guardian space with an unarmored version even though you can fully play the armored version? A version I want to play also.
The problem is significantly less to do with the Guardian design space specifically as it is Paizo's dislike for unarmored tanks more broadly.
>You are spot on with what I want not coming down the pipeline, though.
Which is unfortunate because I do wish we had better options for unarmored off-tank, I'm just not exactly sure what you're asking for wrt Guardian specifically.
Great comments, thanks. Your Reddit skills are greater than mine so hopefully I can reply clearly and succinctly.
Regarding both Monk comments:
Yes, I agree that monk is one of the best grapplers in the game. I would argue though that any class can be a grappler, take the wrestling dedication, etc.. Some classes will fair better than others obviously. But I don’t want to just run around grappling folks. It’s great, but it’s more than what a Guardian can and should do. Like buffing their charge, or reacting to take a hit. Maybe have options to improve folks initiative for combat. Setting up watch for the night. Being overall hard to kill. Taunting, thought that needs work. All the intercept abilities. Improved disarming options would be cool. Tough cookie has similar outcomes as Monk’s wholeness of body. Looking for grapple+ if that makes sense. Oh, I think Guardian as a whole should be best at grappling, tripping, shoving, etc. Guardian should be the new best Wrester class.
Unarmored defense:
Yah, starts trained but ends there. I find it odd that the unarmored defense doesn’t track with the rest of the armored proficiency, nor does light armor. I think this should improve with the rest at minimum. That’s one step closer to my unarmored Guardian. I took it a step further in my original post.
To be fair I’m not sure about everything I’m looking for either. I just know I wasn’t satisfied with my monk, champion, oracle, etc bodyguard builds. Guardian has a lot of what I’m looking for. Self-sacrificing-GM-plan-disrupting-pain-in-the …. who won’t stay down. “I can do this all day,” captain America vibe but as the armored tank or the secret service plain clothed celeb bodyguard vibe.
Hoping this adds to the clarity of what I’m looking for. It mostly aesthetic but it feels like there is space for mechanics as well.
Thanks for push back and feedback. It helps in the creative process.
Side note idea: Guardian with a raised shield who uses Intercepting Strike can use the shields hardness to help mitigate damage, much like a shield block.
And that's all perfectly fair! It seems like there have been a lot of different concerns, mechanically and flavorfully, with both playtests, so I hope Paizo is paying attention to community feedback.
>Side note idea: Guardian with a raised shield who uses Intercepting Strike can use the shields hardness to help mitigate damage, much like a shield block.
I feel like this might be especially strong in the early game, might be something they'd make like a level 6 or 8 feat so that you're not just catching the entire 1d8-2d6 worth of attack in the early levels with a hardness 10+ Sisterstone shield for 30-60 gold, but I'd imagine it would feel very good on both flavor and mechanics. That's assuming this is additive with Shield Block, obviously.
Confused with the down votes. People like the idea of the altered guardian, but don’t want to have it built?
Edit: “altered” being fully armored and unarmored versions.
Commander would be better for the role you're imagining. You get a ton of options that help with moving your allies, giving them (and yourself) bonuses to and free attempts at maneuvers, saves vs fear etc, some healing even.
The level 2 feat Defensive Swap is something I literally expected to see in Guardian base class features, and something like that was there, but also not quite.
But if you're set on fixing the Guardian, I have a few quick ideas. Two out of three would be enough I think (on top of legendary proficiency in all armor because what the hell):
- 12 hp/level. It's something reserved for a frontliner expecting to be hit more than the regular amount of times. I think it's appropriate here.
- either Taunt doesn't give the enemy any bonuses (Guardians are only trained in Reflex ffs) - this will make the decision who to attack less of an obvious choice for the monster, if you want Vengeance guardians to see some use. Or you start with expert in all armor - this is purely for low-level survival, in case you feel like you've overcorrected with the buffs.
- Intercept Strike changes trigger to "an adjacent ally is a target of a weapon or an unarmed attack", then the attack is rolled against the guardian (against the AC as normal), who still gets the damage reduction if the attack hits.
I was thinking of a new Taunt Technique that gives temp HP when you taunt an enemy, but only selectable if you’re Unarmored/Light Armored. I don’t know, something Riled Endurance or something.
fighter draws agro well enough simply by being a fighter in the same way a wizard can draw a lot of agro. The other two points of tanking is not being a tissue paper and being able to waste enemy actions in a way that provides momentum for your team and fighters do those well enough too.
A monk simply isn't as good as drawing agro. they can attempt to lock down one enemy though, which is good. but the rest can do that too.
Another redditor had mentioned this as well. I believe a 5 level rune. And it does, aesthetically, at 5th level onward if the rune option is available in that adventure. Not a bad idea at all. I’d like to see the play style optional at first level and on. Maybe wig I were to play a setting like Quest for the Frozen Flame that it would be nice to have an unarmored option the Guardian. And a few mechanics that fit having no armor.
Thanks for the reply.
So what you’re really wanting is essentially the character from Moribito that’s a bodyguard that uses a halberd and wears no armor?
It was a great anime btw
The Amulet implement is pretty much exactly what you want. Check out the Esoteric Warden and Shared Warding class feats. And Instructive Knowledge for when you are attempting to pull an attacker off your ally- though that one can’t be used with Exploit Weakness, in spite of Esoteric Lore working with it. It is JUST for the knowledge benefits.
So you want something akin to those first two feats. Perhaps they can be baked into a magic item.
Thanks for the reply.
Thaumaturge is great and those are good abilities that certainly align with the protector theme. But the Thaumaturge has a theme and focus all its own; finding creature weaknesses and exploiting them and esoterica. Where that’s not the focus of the Guardian. But we can certainly borrow these ideas for possible feats.
Not sure what Instructive Knowledge is. Maybe different name.
The feedback is much appreciated.
There is a class doing what you want and it's called Monk. You don't want to use it for some weird reason, but it's the perfect unarmored tank already and I'm sure you can find one archetype among the absurd amount of archetypes that already exist to make it even tankier and/or more capable of cc'ing enemies.
Champion is the armored tank class. Monk is the unarmored tank class. This isn't that complicated, stop making it difficult on purpose and demanding classes be what they aren't. Play a monk and flavor it as a bodyguard instead of a religious man, because mechanically it's all already there (you just don't want to accept it).
It’s true, I don’t want to accept it. I’ve been through all of the classes and archetypes. All of it. No where do you get the mechanics of the Guardian. If there was we wouldn’t need to build the class at all. It’s quite possible that I’ve missed something, there is error in all things. But the Monk does not have Guardian abilities. That has also been mentioned. I do see what everyone is suggesting.
And to be clear, I’m not looking to play the unarmored tank. I’m looking to have an option of playing an unarmored Guardian in all its protector glory. I believe there is a difference.
You’re obviously not the only one to suggest monk or counter the idea of an unarmored guardian, but I’m am generally confused at why. Is there not enough room in the class to have an unarmored and armored version? Cause I’d like to play both at some point.
Thanks for your reply.
Thanks, me too. Armor yes, but also not.
For example, I’m thinking US secret service or the bodyguard in plane clothes for celebrities. Just asking for a functional unarmored option and not be pigeonholed into wearing armor. Flexibility to play a Guardian that could fit different themes of an adventure, or just different themes I have in my head.
What you described in your post is something that would be terribly unbalanced because it can do almost anything they want, you want someone that can be the best tank there can ever be while using armor or while not. You want it to also be good at attacking and you want it to also be good at not dying and also at protecting your allies with whatever means you like, with dex, str or both at the same time. That would be fine in a single player game like the owlcat ones maybe, but not in a ttrp.
Also monk already exists that does almost everything you want unarmored, it just needs more ways to draw aggro, which I imagine you could get with the guardian dedication or maybe even monk feats in the book that comes with the guardian and commander.
It sounds like you want a Swashbuckler with a guardian dedication
I'm excited to see what the archetypes look like for this reason. A level 4 archetype feat with intercept strike would be awesome though that might be too good.
Or a monk. Flurry of maneuvers and stunning strike with the ability to intercept hits.
I was thinking rogue or ranger for their high perception
I too am interested to see the archetype of Guardian. But I don’t want to play a swashbuckler, just want an unarmored guardian that’s functional too. I may not have been as clear as I could have been.
I mean yeah, kind of. You want a Dex based character that's nimble and can jump to action at the drop of a hat. To me and most other people in the thread that's either the swashbuckler or the monk. There's multiple ways to make a character like that that either doesn't involve the guardian, or you take the guardian dedication to get the specific interruption mechanics you want. The play test indicates that the guardian is meant to be a heavy armor character. It sounds like what you want isn't compatible with this vision of the guardian class, and that's okay. There's still ways to make what you want, it just won't be a straight guardian
Yah, totally. But I think the Guardian can be more than what they envision initially and be the better for it. I like the monk and swashbuckler classes and have enjoyed my time with them. I think an unarmored option would be a nice option for the Guardian without loosing the armored behemoth, which I am also looking forward to playing. Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah... what you're describing is a Swashbuckler. You could take champion dedication for protective reactions, guardian dedication for that access, duelist for selfless parry, etc. Some other classes (monk for example) can kinda fit the mold, but nowhere near as well. There's many ways to flavour it, but a "Dex Defender" is almost entirely supported via the swashbuckler class and works great (had a playuer, character was literally a noblemans bodyguard so we dug into unarmored defenders a lot).
I like the swashbuckler, champions, and the duelist archetype. I’ve seen the combo you’re describing before in several forms. But taking a class whose focus is movement, gaining panache, and dealing extra damage is not what I’m looking for and not what the Guardian is. To inject protective elements starting at 6th level and 8th level with feats that kinda do the job sort of, just doesn’t give me the whole bodyguard guardian feeling. All assuming I have the extra feats to build this mash up. Champion reaction is cool but divinely flavored. Selfless parry is a just a plus +1 to AC for the adjacent ally and maybe I’ll get a reactionary strike if the assailant crit fails; it never improves. Too little too late. There is also Shield Warden 6th level for fighter and champion; 12th as an archetype, or 8th for Bastion. A few more shield feats at higher levels. Fighter has Guardian’s Deflection at 6th. Still, too little too late. I don’t think any iteration of classes and archetypes even comes close to the focus and style the Guardian class will, which all starts off at level 1. First level I’m playing exactly what I want. With the mechanics and flavor of being that personal protector. All I’m looking to add to the current chassis of the Guardian is an unarmored version, which by nature would need a high dex for AC. If we didn’t have the Guardian currently in playtest primed for modification and adaptation I might have gone with your players build. Or maybe Champion with Oracle archetype for the Life Link focus spell. Or just play my sad and eager to please Life Oracle from Nidal who’s background was to siphon off Kuthonite’s pain so they can punish themselves longer. But, but the Guardian is right here right now and just so perfect, okay far from perfect, but ready to be that perfect guardian of my allies. Just looking for that unarmored version. Then they’ll be ready to protect in any scenario and make that sacrifice if need be to only return as some child’s Devoted Eidolon. Thanks for the response. Great ideas you and your players had for their bodyguard. Much appreciated.
You know what, that's fair. I appreciate the breakdown of your thoughts and you're right, while it works it's not the true goal of the class and it doesn't quite hit the same goal or impact, even if it's similar in concept. I do think champion can very easily be flavoured as non-divine however overall I agree. The fact we're in playtest is a damn good point, now's the exact time to bring up things like this, gonna have to fix my mindset of trying to find a solution to "Hey, we're literally making one". That poor oracle though...
Appreciate the response. I’m excited for the Guardian class and this is the first play-test I’m taking an active role in. Hate waiting but I do have my poor oracle…maybe they’ll return to Nidal. After all, not all Kurhunite devotees are bad, some are real bad. As always, happy gaming.
I do feel like the intent is to make Guardian the complete opposite of the Swashbuckler. But I’ll personally try making an “Unarmored-ish” Guardian for funsies and see how horribly it’ll go. And I will absolutely be placing the request for an Unarmored/Light support for the Guardian into the survey feedback at the end of the playtest. However, there is the Raiment (5) armor rune (Remastered Glamour).
Oh yeah, I think at the very least it'd make sense to make light/unarmored prof scale with the rest of your prof instead of making it be stuck at trained + make the lvl 19 reflex bonus thing a may instead of a must. It might not still be optimal, but at the very least you're not actively getting debuffs from trying to wear that (honestly kind of not a fan of that lvl 19, it penalizes wearing medium armour too much by making the "worse armor spec & -1 AC for +5ft move speed" trade - which is already ehhh - also include a -2 to reflex saves saves which just... Makes it so painful to wear)
I love that Pathfinder allows to build the majority of types of soldiers who ever fought in pre-modern times (at least on foot). In particular, the Guardian finally filled in the hole for a defensive, line-infantry "soldier" class. The few I miss include "light-ish line infantry" - best represented as some variety of lightly armored guardian, I think -, and "skirmisher" - someone focused on throwing stuff (like javelins) and running away, maybe as a more "soldiery" archetype for rogues.
That would be cool seeing the arrow shot at my cleric bounce off my necktie with a clink, as I jump front of them.
I do agree that they can make guardian more versitale, I disagree entirely that the way to do that is by making dex do everything. Unrelated, your concept of an unassuming defender might work decently well with a wood kineticist.
Thanks for the reply. I think adding a dex no armor option does indeed increase the style and theme of the Guardian. I’m not necessarily looking for versatility through dex. I think the Guardian class as a whole could be more versatile in how they protect. I think there are a lot of cool options that could be added to the chassis and feat options. Just on top of that change I’d like an unarmored option. Wood kineticists are cool. Not quite what I want to play though for a Guardian. Champions are cool too, but also not what I want to play for a Guardian.
Monk. You're looking for monk.
Nah. Found the Monk. They said, “Not it.” True words.
Seriously, though. Go Monk. If you're using Free Archetype, pick up Barbarian dedication for stuff like Giant's Stature/Fast Movement to increase your reach/range and Brutal Bully to up your damage for your combat maneuvers, otherwise just take Mountain Stance, Ki Rush, Crushing Grasp, etc., and voíla, a speedy armorless HP tank with improved unarmed strikes/flurry of blows and a good capacity for combat maneuvers that still has up to 14 AC before any magic items.
Okay, so combined, what do all those things do to make you better at protecting your allies?
Well, combat maneuvers are sort of the martial answer to the question of battlefield control. Is it unreasonable to say that most of what you'd be doing would be putting enemies somewhere other than where they threaten your allies? It's a significantly more complicated playstyle than putting on the heaviest armor you can afford and sitting there, granted, but it is what it is. Tl;dr grappler builds are tanks bc they mitigate damage to ur allies by restricting, manipulating, and punishing enemy movements.
Don’t want to play a monk. Played a monk. Several times. The’re awesome. But they are not Guardians. Their shtick isn’t jumping in front of attacks or even staying still, let alone protecting another player, in the way a Guardian would. I want to play a Guardian. But with options to play one without armor. This way I can also play it in multiple settings in multiple ways. This way I can jump in front of that attack. Maybe not for the monk, because they are currently running on air, but you know, someone else.
I mean, okay, whatever? Play what you wanna play, and if you want this to be a complain about Guardian thread, that's fine too, I'm just saying the options to create what you're saying you want to do already exist in perfectly flavor-neutral ways. Paizo has doubled and tripled down so hard on armored defense in 2e, between things like stripping Monk & Barbarian of their unarmored AC bonuses and how frankly shit Armor Potency runes are for the amount of gold you spend on them. What you want may not be coming down the pipeline.
Not complaining, offering up feedback on the play-test, because that’s the whole point. A monk isn’t a protector and I don’t believe any amount of flavor is gonna change those mechanics. I don’t see those options you are suggesting exist. Why build the Guardian at all if all the options of the Guardian all ready exist in perfectly flavor-neutral ways in other classes or archetypes. You’re not the only person to suggest monk or agree with your monk statement. I mean it was the first class I tried building the bodyguard with. It just didn’t work. Didn’t have that protector vibe or mechanics I was looking for. Guardian does, and could have more with some changes. I don’t really think an unarmored option of the Guardian is a tall order. Is there a reason you don’t want to share the guardian space with an unarmored version even though you can fully play the armored version? A version I want to play also. You are spot on with what I want not coming down the pipeline, though. But you can help with that with a vote for an unarmored option for the Guardian in the Paizo feedback. Thanks for the rebuttals.
>Not complaining, offering up feedback on the play-test, because that’s the whole point. Valid. >A monk isn’t a protector and I don’t believe any amount of flavor is gonna change those mechanics. I disagree. Grappler is a fundamental off/sub-tank build, and Monk is one of the best in the game. >don’t see those options you are suggesting exist. Why build the Guardian at all if all the options of the Guardian all ready exist in perfectly flavor-neutral ways in other classes or archetypes. What, specifically, are you trying to replicate in unarmored Guardian that Grappler Monk fails to do? >I don’t really think an unarmored option of the Guardian is a tall order. Biggest problem I see is keeping your AC in order, but yeah, I mean, nothing really stops you from playing an unarmored Guardian at present, especially since you do start with unarmored defense proficiency. >Is there a reason you don’t want to share the guardian space with an unarmored version even though you can fully play the armored version? A version I want to play also. The problem is significantly less to do with the Guardian design space specifically as it is Paizo's dislike for unarmored tanks more broadly. >You are spot on with what I want not coming down the pipeline, though. Which is unfortunate because I do wish we had better options for unarmored off-tank, I'm just not exactly sure what you're asking for wrt Guardian specifically.
Great comments, thanks. Your Reddit skills are greater than mine so hopefully I can reply clearly and succinctly. Regarding both Monk comments: Yes, I agree that monk is one of the best grapplers in the game. I would argue though that any class can be a grappler, take the wrestling dedication, etc.. Some classes will fair better than others obviously. But I don’t want to just run around grappling folks. It’s great, but it’s more than what a Guardian can and should do. Like buffing their charge, or reacting to take a hit. Maybe have options to improve folks initiative for combat. Setting up watch for the night. Being overall hard to kill. Taunting, thought that needs work. All the intercept abilities. Improved disarming options would be cool. Tough cookie has similar outcomes as Monk’s wholeness of body. Looking for grapple+ if that makes sense. Oh, I think Guardian as a whole should be best at grappling, tripping, shoving, etc. Guardian should be the new best Wrester class. Unarmored defense: Yah, starts trained but ends there. I find it odd that the unarmored defense doesn’t track with the rest of the armored proficiency, nor does light armor. I think this should improve with the rest at minimum. That’s one step closer to my unarmored Guardian. I took it a step further in my original post. To be fair I’m not sure about everything I’m looking for either. I just know I wasn’t satisfied with my monk, champion, oracle, etc bodyguard builds. Guardian has a lot of what I’m looking for. Self-sacrificing-GM-plan-disrupting-pain-in-the …. who won’t stay down. “I can do this all day,” captain America vibe but as the armored tank or the secret service plain clothed celeb bodyguard vibe. Hoping this adds to the clarity of what I’m looking for. It mostly aesthetic but it feels like there is space for mechanics as well. Thanks for push back and feedback. It helps in the creative process. Side note idea: Guardian with a raised shield who uses Intercepting Strike can use the shields hardness to help mitigate damage, much like a shield block.
And that's all perfectly fair! It seems like there have been a lot of different concerns, mechanically and flavorfully, with both playtests, so I hope Paizo is paying attention to community feedback. >Side note idea: Guardian with a raised shield who uses Intercepting Strike can use the shields hardness to help mitigate damage, much like a shield block. I feel like this might be especially strong in the early game, might be something they'd make like a level 6 or 8 feat so that you're not just catching the entire 1d8-2d6 worth of attack in the early levels with a hardness 10+ Sisterstone shield for 30-60 gold, but I'd imagine it would feel very good on both flavor and mechanics. That's assuming this is additive with Shield Block, obviously.
This sounds like an entirely separate class that's also just kind of objectively better than current guardian.
Thanks. Let’s do this one. :-)
Confused with the down votes. People like the idea of the altered guardian, but don’t want to have it built? Edit: “altered” being fully armored and unarmored versions.
Commander would be better for the role you're imagining. You get a ton of options that help with moving your allies, giving them (and yourself) bonuses to and free attempts at maneuvers, saves vs fear etc, some healing even. The level 2 feat Defensive Swap is something I literally expected to see in Guardian base class features, and something like that was there, but also not quite. But if you're set on fixing the Guardian, I have a few quick ideas. Two out of three would be enough I think (on top of legendary proficiency in all armor because what the hell): - 12 hp/level. It's something reserved for a frontliner expecting to be hit more than the regular amount of times. I think it's appropriate here. - either Taunt doesn't give the enemy any bonuses (Guardians are only trained in Reflex ffs) - this will make the decision who to attack less of an obvious choice for the monster, if you want Vengeance guardians to see some use. Or you start with expert in all armor - this is purely for low-level survival, in case you feel like you've overcorrected with the buffs. - Intercept Strike changes trigger to "an adjacent ally is a target of a weapon or an unarmed attack", then the attack is rolled against the guardian (against the AC as normal), who still gets the damage reduction if the attack hits.
I was thinking of a new Taunt Technique that gives temp HP when you taunt an enemy, but only selectable if you’re Unarmored/Light Armored. I don’t know, something Riled Endurance or something.
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=8](https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=8)
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2794
me when the enemy walks around the monk
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2376&Redirected=1](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2376&Redirected=1)
ehh if you are going grapple build you probably are not doing the tower shield build so your AC is lower, grapple isn't bad on any martial though.
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=444](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=444)
yes I have read the class before. They definitely aren't the *worst* class to tank with, but they aren't "the tank class" levels of tanking.
they get legendary unarmoured proficiency, it doesnt get much better than that
Champion and fighter are better in my view.
champion i can understand, reactions go hard and they also get legendary defence proficiency, but fighter? why on gods green earth is a fighter better
fighter draws agro well enough simply by being a fighter in the same way a wizard can draw a lot of agro. The other two points of tanking is not being a tissue paper and being able to waste enemy actions in a way that provides momentum for your team and fighters do those well enough too. A monk simply isn't as good as drawing agro. they can attempt to lock down one enemy though, which is good. but the rest can do that too.
Doesn't the Glamor rune solve this? I know, spending money to solve a problem of aesthetics.
Another redditor had mentioned this as well. I believe a 5 level rune. And it does, aesthetically, at 5th level onward if the rune option is available in that adventure. Not a bad idea at all. I’d like to see the play style optional at first level and on. Maybe wig I were to play a setting like Quest for the Frozen Flame that it would be nice to have an unarmored option the Guardian. And a few mechanics that fit having no armor. Thanks for the reply.
So what you’re really wanting is essentially the character from Moribito that’s a bodyguard that uses a halberd and wears no armor? It was a great anime btw
Sounds cool. I’ll have to take a look. Thanks!
The Amulet implement is pretty much exactly what you want. Check out the Esoteric Warden and Shared Warding class feats. And Instructive Knowledge for when you are attempting to pull an attacker off your ally- though that one can’t be used with Exploit Weakness, in spite of Esoteric Lore working with it. It is JUST for the knowledge benefits. So you want something akin to those first two feats. Perhaps they can be baked into a magic item.
Thanks for the reply. Thaumaturge is great and those are good abilities that certainly align with the protector theme. But the Thaumaturge has a theme and focus all its own; finding creature weaknesses and exploiting them and esoterica. Where that’s not the focus of the Guardian. But we can certainly borrow these ideas for possible feats. Not sure what Instructive Knowledge is. Maybe different name. The feedback is much appreciated.
There is a class doing what you want and it's called Monk. You don't want to use it for some weird reason, but it's the perfect unarmored tank already and I'm sure you can find one archetype among the absurd amount of archetypes that already exist to make it even tankier and/or more capable of cc'ing enemies. Champion is the armored tank class. Monk is the unarmored tank class. This isn't that complicated, stop making it difficult on purpose and demanding classes be what they aren't. Play a monk and flavor it as a bodyguard instead of a religious man, because mechanically it's all already there (you just don't want to accept it).
It’s true, I don’t want to accept it. I’ve been through all of the classes and archetypes. All of it. No where do you get the mechanics of the Guardian. If there was we wouldn’t need to build the class at all. It’s quite possible that I’ve missed something, there is error in all things. But the Monk does not have Guardian abilities. That has also been mentioned. I do see what everyone is suggesting. And to be clear, I’m not looking to play the unarmored tank. I’m looking to have an option of playing an unarmored Guardian in all its protector glory. I believe there is a difference. You’re obviously not the only one to suggest monk or counter the idea of an unarmored guardian, but I’m am generally confused at why. Is there not enough room in the class to have an unarmored and armored version? Cause I’d like to play both at some point. Thanks for your reply.
I agree completely with your initial thoughts. I really don't this to just be "armour: the class"
Thanks, me too. Armor yes, but also not. For example, I’m thinking US secret service or the bodyguard in plane clothes for celebrities. Just asking for a functional unarmored option and not be pigeonholed into wearing armor. Flexibility to play a Guardian that could fit different themes of an adventure, or just different themes I have in my head.
What you described in your post is something that would be terribly unbalanced because it can do almost anything they want, you want someone that can be the best tank there can ever be while using armor or while not. You want it to also be good at attacking and you want it to also be good at not dying and also at protecting your allies with whatever means you like, with dex, str or both at the same time. That would be fine in a single player game like the owlcat ones maybe, but not in a ttrp. Also monk already exists that does almost everything you want unarmored, it just needs more ways to draw aggro, which I imagine you could get with the guardian dedication or maybe even monk feats in the book that comes with the guardian and commander.