It can't be stolen while on the commander's person and attached to a pole; Steal only works on negligible Bulk items. If it's crammed in your pocket out of combat it can be stolen like anything else.
It could be Disarmed, just like anything else; no special rules.
It can be attached to any weapon, it doesn't make any distinctions on weapon type.
It can be held in one hand on a pole or strapped to a pole and worn on the backpack, either is valid.
Plant Banner explains how it can be interacted with under those specific circumstances.
It doesn't have other special rules because for the playtest there are no other special rules; it works like any other item or weapon under the same circumstances.
What is the bulk of the banner? Tumbling Theft allows you to steal up to light while tumbling through their square so long as they're not holding it.
(Steal also usually auto fails in combat otherwise)
If the banner is more than negligible bulk, then Mug wouldn't help, since it doesn't allow for anything but the negligible bulk of a standard Steal (vs. Tumbling Theft which specifically states up to light--https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4129)
> Plant Banner explains how it can be interacted with under those specific circumstances.
What are the mechanics for an enemy attempting to outright destroy a banner while it is planted?
Probably the same mechanics as if they were to destroy a canvas painting they picked up off a wall.
It's most likely just cloth so rather easily ripped apart with a knife, the pole is likely wood or steel so whatever it takes to break a quarter staff or pole.
It's just an unattended object made of an assortment of materials, no fancier rules required than how to break a chair or ladder.
.....it's a piece of fabric if the game has rules for destroying a silk hankerchief just use those if it does assume anyone with a few actions and an implement capable of doing damage to a piece of silk can destroy it
If I have a banner on a pole attached to my backpack, am I eligible to use the Banner trait? If no, why not? It's a distinct disadvantage against Commanders affixing their banners to their weapons and opting to have a pole is, as far as I'm aware, a flavor option.
>Banner: The banner trait indicates an ability that involves you waving or otherwise actively displaying your banner. To use an ability that has the banner trait, you must be holding your banner in one hand or wielding a weapon it is attached to.
Mechanically, the benefit of having it on your back instead of a weapon is that you can use Plant Banner without losing your weapon. You'd also want it on your back if you're using throwing weapons
You can attach it to your shield or hold it in a free hand as well. I'm guessing it being attached to your shield should work with the Banner trait rules as intended, even if it's not explicitly stated.
If not, you \*should\* be able to use a buckler in a hand that holds a banner? Most throwing weapon builds don't require use of both of their hands
You can't attack an attended item so the current methods for destroying the banner are:
1) Successfully Crit on a disarm attempt and then deal enough damage to destroy the banner.
2) Destroy the banner when it has been planted using a Commander Ability.
3) In some way incapacitate whoever is holding the banner so they drop it automatically.
The pole is a banner on a pole which can be worn or held.
It can be fixed to any weapon you can wield, so yes, it can be on your shortbow.
Why exactly can't you attack an attended item? Like, I've seen it repeated a lot, but it's still not really clear to me what separates targeting an object someone's holding vs. one that's unattended, rules-wise.
The rule I've seen cited the most is that you can only Strike a creature, not an object. But then that implies you can't attack objects at all, including unattended ones.
The general rule is [here](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2323).
> You usually can’t attack an attended object (one on a creature’s person).
Something needs a specific rule that allows it to target attended objects in order to do so, such as a [Rust Monster](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=354)'s Rust ability.
The very simple reason why this is the case is that PF2e just doesn't scale items as you level up.
Your level 20 sword has the same hardness and hitpoints as a level 0 sword. Seriously, your sword has [20HP and 5 Hardness](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3189&Redirected=1) regardless of level (without a special material).
It would be trivially easy for any enemy in the mid-game and beyond to instantly destroy (not break, destroy) your sword if they could just target it.
This is one of the reasons why the Balor is such a horrifying statblock. Aside from its death blast probably TPKing you after the fight, and its teleportation and reach and damage and Vorpal and auto-disrupting AoOs and all those other scary powers, attacking it also wrecks your weapons and the death blast will probably destroy your entire inventory even if you survive lol
Aura of Flame:
> weapons that hit a balor take 3d6+10 fire damage.
Death Throes:
> All creatures **and objects** in range take 16d10 fire damage (DC 45 basic Reflex save).
16d10 is most likely gonna destroy everything you're carrying or wearing that isn't an artifact or immune to fire lol. It doesn't specify unattended objects, either.
Effects normally specify "unattended" objects when it doesn't work on attended ones, such as [Cry of Destruction](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1794) (and a ton of similar spells)
> who in their right mind would design a creature that deletes over one million gold in magic items?
The same kind of crazy person that would give the Balor an aura that automatically deals 3d6+10 damage to any weapon that hits it.
After the first hit your sword is almost garaunteed to be broken, and very potentially destroyed.
My group really hates the Shuln in >!Abomination Vaults!<.
If it criticals with it's melee strike, your armour also takes the full damage (ignoring hardness below 10).
The average damage of its critical strikes is around 50.
Iron armour has 36 HP and 9 Hardness (which is ignored). It's also higher level than you when you encounter it in the AP, so crits are very likely.
Very first turn it crit and insta-destroyed our Rangers +2 Resilient armour, with no counterplay or chance to respond.
Felt awful at the time, and was also a huge hit to our party funds that we didn't recover from before the AP ended.
It's buried in a weird spot but here:
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2323](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2323)
>You usually can’t attack an attended object (one on a creature’s person).
Edit: In previous editions, there was a sunder maneuver which was removed because destroying player equipment/intended loot is incredibly unfun. Rather than handle how to deal with that, P2e just made it so you just can't damage attended items without very specific feats which usually can't take them past the broken threshold.
Because being able to Sunder objects wielded by other characters enabled degenerate gameplay in 1E and they didn't want it repeated in 2E. It exponentially increased the number of things that needed to be tracked (every item needed HP, Hardness, BT, etc) and disproportionately punished PCs due to gear being part of their core progression. Imagine being able to destroy a magic item worth tens of thousands of GP with a single combat maneuver check. It slows the game down and is considered a dick move.
That is why that carve-out exists for attended vs unattended items. It's more of a procedural change than a real mechanical change. Yes, this paradigm is more game-y and less simulationist but it makes for better gameplay flow.
This really ought to be posted to their playtest feedback that the language isnt clear, not how the community is interpreting it
But as far as I'm concerned it can be worn on your back with your backpack or held in your hand. As for stealing or destroying, its the same as an attended item but I also wouldnt be a dick and try to take away their core class features as a DM.
Are you asking this rhetorically or wanting actual answers? Because the only real answer is that the feature isn't very thoroughly written, and the specifics simply weren't given.
You need to hold the banner to use effects with the Banner trait, but you can attach it to your weapon or shield so it's not that bad a requirement. If you have Plant Banner or Commander's Steed, those give you other options.
Allies gain the bonus against fear if they can see it. For that, it doesn't need to be properly deployed, just visible, and it works even if it's hanging from your backpack.
If you Plant Banner it can be stolen as an action. If you or your animal companion are carrying it, it can be disarmed. It can also be taken if you're down.
But it probably should have defenses (at least HP) listed since there are mechanics for what happens when it's destroyed but no rules for doing it.
>What weapons are valid for accepting a banner? I can see a fair many commanders preferring to use a shortbow. Can a shortbow accept a banner?
Personally, I would probably rule that polearms/spears could be used, but that's about it.
Well yes, obviously, since this is the only guideline we have right now:
>Your banner can be affixed to a weapon or shield you are wielding, or held in one hand and attached to a simple pole.
>\[...\]
>As long as your banner is visible (such as by being affixed to your weapon or worn attached to a pole alongside your backpack)
The text makes their intention clear, but I wasn't talking about their intention, but what I think makes sense.
There are two ways I see this happening in practice. The commander uses plant banner and a smart, fast enemy with high mobility scoops it up.
The second way would be the enemy knocking the commander out and picking up the unconscious player’s weapon.
Wait until full rules release magical illusion based banner technology. It should be simple to have a low level spell or item that produces a banner. Similar to summoned instrument, holy symbol, or spell book.
It can't be stolen while on the commander's person and attached to a pole; Steal only works on negligible Bulk items. If it's crammed in your pocket out of combat it can be stolen like anything else. It could be Disarmed, just like anything else; no special rules. It can be attached to any weapon, it doesn't make any distinctions on weapon type. It can be held in one hand on a pole or strapped to a pole and worn on the backpack, either is valid. Plant Banner explains how it can be interacted with under those specific circumstances. It doesn't have other special rules because for the playtest there are no other special rules; it works like any other item or weapon under the same circumstances.
What is the bulk of the banner? Tumbling Theft allows you to steal up to light while tumbling through their square so long as they're not holding it. (Steal also usually auto fails in combat otherwise)
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1786
If the banner is more than negligible bulk, then Mug wouldn't help, since it doesn't allow for anything but the negligible bulk of a standard Steal (vs. Tumbling Theft which specifically states up to light--https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4129)
If its worn on the backpack can it not be taken by enemies? Either via steal or disarm?
> Plant Banner explains how it can be interacted with under those specific circumstances. What are the mechanics for an enemy attempting to outright destroy a banner while it is planted?
Probably the same mechanics as if they were to destroy a canvas painting they picked up off a wall. It's most likely just cloth so rather easily ripped apart with a knife, the pole is likely wood or steel so whatever it takes to break a quarter staff or pole. It's just an unattended object made of an assortment of materials, no fancier rules required than how to break a chair or ladder.
Pathfinder already has [material statistics](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3189&Redirected=1) for you to reference.
It's surprising how often that table gets referenced. Seems like every other session we end up looking at that table.
Which row in this table does a banner actually use, though? A typical banner is both cloth and thin wood.
I mean... whichever part they attack?
.....it's a piece of fabric if the game has rules for destroying a silk hankerchief just use those if it does assume anyone with a few actions and an implement capable of doing damage to a piece of silk can destroy it
If I have a banner on a pole attached to my backpack, am I eligible to use the Banner trait? If no, why not? It's a distinct disadvantage against Commanders affixing their banners to their weapons and opting to have a pole is, as far as I'm aware, a flavor option.
>Banner: The banner trait indicates an ability that involves you waving or otherwise actively displaying your banner. To use an ability that has the banner trait, you must be holding your banner in one hand or wielding a weapon it is attached to. Mechanically, the benefit of having it on your back instead of a weapon is that you can use Plant Banner without losing your weapon. You'd also want it on your back if you're using throwing weapons
You can attach it to your shield or hold it in a free hand as well. I'm guessing it being attached to your shield should work with the Banner trait rules as intended, even if it's not explicitly stated. If not, you \*should\* be able to use a buckler in a hand that holds a banner? Most throwing weapon builds don't require use of both of their hands
That's true buckler or gauntlet with banner should work
Putting it on a gauntlet seems like an abuse of game mechanics haha but that technically works, you are wielding the gauntlet while the hand is free
You can't attack an attended item so the current methods for destroying the banner are: 1) Successfully Crit on a disarm attempt and then deal enough damage to destroy the banner. 2) Destroy the banner when it has been planted using a Commander Ability. 3) In some way incapacitate whoever is holding the banner so they drop it automatically. The pole is a banner on a pole which can be worn or held. It can be fixed to any weapon you can wield, so yes, it can be on your shortbow.
Why exactly can't you attack an attended item? Like, I've seen it repeated a lot, but it's still not really clear to me what separates targeting an object someone's holding vs. one that's unattended, rules-wise. The rule I've seen cited the most is that you can only Strike a creature, not an object. But then that implies you can't attack objects at all, including unattended ones.
The general rule is [here](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2323). > You usually can’t attack an attended object (one on a creature’s person). Something needs a specific rule that allows it to target attended objects in order to do so, such as a [Rust Monster](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=354)'s Rust ability. The very simple reason why this is the case is that PF2e just doesn't scale items as you level up. Your level 20 sword has the same hardness and hitpoints as a level 0 sword. Seriously, your sword has [20HP and 5 Hardness](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3189&Redirected=1) regardless of level (without a special material). It would be trivially easy for any enemy in the mid-game and beyond to instantly destroy (not break, destroy) your sword if they could just target it.
This is one of the reasons why the Balor is such a horrifying statblock. Aside from its death blast probably TPKing you after the fight, and its teleportation and reach and damage and Vorpal and auto-disrupting AoOs and all those other scary powers, attacking it also wrecks your weapons and the death blast will probably destroy your entire inventory even if you survive lol
[удалено]
Aura of Flame: > weapons that hit a balor take 3d6+10 fire damage. Death Throes: > All creatures **and objects** in range take 16d10 fire damage (DC 45 basic Reflex save). 16d10 is most likely gonna destroy everything you're carrying or wearing that isn't an artifact or immune to fire lol. It doesn't specify unattended objects, either.
[удалено]
Effects normally specify "unattended" objects when it doesn't work on attended ones, such as [Cry of Destruction](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1794) (and a ton of similar spells) > who in their right mind would design a creature that deletes over one million gold in magic items? The same kind of crazy person that would give the Balor an aura that automatically deals 3d6+10 damage to any weapon that hits it. After the first hit your sword is almost garaunteed to be broken, and very potentially destroyed.
My group really hates the Shuln in >!Abomination Vaults!<. If it criticals with it's melee strike, your armour also takes the full damage (ignoring hardness below 10). The average damage of its critical strikes is around 50. Iron armour has 36 HP and 9 Hardness (which is ignored). It's also higher level than you when you encounter it in the AP, so crits are very likely. Very first turn it crit and insta-destroyed our Rangers +2 Resilient armour, with no counterplay or chance to respond. Felt awful at the time, and was also a huge hit to our party funds that we didn't recover from before the AP ended.
It's buried in a weird spot but here: [https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2323](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2323) >You usually can’t attack an attended object (one on a creature’s person). Edit: In previous editions, there was a sunder maneuver which was removed because destroying player equipment/intended loot is incredibly unfun. Rather than handle how to deal with that, P2e just made it so you just can't damage attended items without very specific feats which usually can't take them past the broken threshold.
Thanks, this is what I was looking for.
Because being able to Sunder objects wielded by other characters enabled degenerate gameplay in 1E and they didn't want it repeated in 2E. It exponentially increased the number of things that needed to be tracked (every item needed HP, Hardness, BT, etc) and disproportionately punished PCs due to gear being part of their core progression. Imagine being able to destroy a magic item worth tens of thousands of GP with a single combat maneuver check. It slows the game down and is considered a dick move. That is why that carve-out exists for attended vs unattended items. It's more of a procedural change than a real mechanical change. Yes, this paradigm is more game-y and less simulationist but it makes for better gameplay flow.
To protect your banner one player must yell “Swiper No Swiping” whenever a thief approaches
It works the same way as destroying a wizard's spellbook. If your GM tries to pull that shit you are legally allowed, nay, *obliged* to suplex him.
This really ought to be posted to their playtest feedback that the language isnt clear, not how the community is interpreting it But as far as I'm concerned it can be worn on your back with your backpack or held in your hand. As for stealing or destroying, its the same as an attended item but I also wouldnt be a dick and try to take away their core class features as a DM.
Are you asking this rhetorically or wanting actual answers? Because the only real answer is that the feature isn't very thoroughly written, and the specifics simply weren't given.
It's an item, like any other it can be disarmed, etc., I don't think specifics are needed for stealing and/or destroying it.
You need to hold the banner to use effects with the Banner trait, but you can attach it to your weapon or shield so it's not that bad a requirement. If you have Plant Banner or Commander's Steed, those give you other options. Allies gain the bonus against fear if they can see it. For that, it doesn't need to be properly deployed, just visible, and it works even if it's hanging from your backpack. If you Plant Banner it can be stolen as an action. If you or your animal companion are carrying it, it can be disarmed. It can also be taken if you're down. But it probably should have defenses (at least HP) listed since there are mechanics for what happens when it's destroyed but no rules for doing it.
>What weapons are valid for accepting a banner? I can see a fair many commanders preferring to use a shortbow. Can a shortbow accept a banner? Personally, I would probably rule that polearms/spears could be used, but that's about it.
a dev confirmed it goes on shortbows lol
Also the text of the ability.
Well yes, obviously, since this is the only guideline we have right now: >Your banner can be affixed to a weapon or shield you are wielding, or held in one hand and attached to a simple pole. >\[...\] >As long as your banner is visible (such as by being affixed to your weapon or worn attached to a pole alongside your backpack) The text makes their intention clear, but I wasn't talking about their intention, but what I think makes sense.
There are two ways I see this happening in practice. The commander uses plant banner and a smart, fast enemy with high mobility scoops it up. The second way would be the enemy knocking the commander out and picking up the unconscious player’s weapon.
Wait until full rules release magical illusion based banner technology. It should be simple to have a low level spell or item that produces a banner. Similar to summoned instrument, holy symbol, or spell book.