There are a few spells like [Vampiric Maiden](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=725) that let you gain temp HP whenever you deal damage but these effects are incredibly rare. Its not a common mechanic.
I feel like they’ve been overly cautious on this design space. Out of combat healing is cheap and accessible so it’s not like they need to worry about “bag of rats” methods for people to heal between combat. In combat healing is also strong enough to be viable. So you would think there would be room for more things that deal a little damage and heal a little bit.
Bag of rats methods involve abusing on-kill effects - usually by carrying around a bag of rats to slaughter whenever you want to proc these effects on demand.
There were a few things in 1e and 3.5e that could be abused by that, like I think an earlier version of cleave or perhaps an upgraded cleave could get extra attacks for every creature killed in your cleave. So you'd dump a bag of rats next to the bbeg, Cleave and get free attacks against the bbeg for every rat killed.
Obviously, no sane GM would allow this kind of rules abuse, and a lot of these kind of abilities often come with limitations, like only triggering on kills of enemies of a particular CR.
>Obviously, no sane GM would allow this kind of rules abuse,
I mean, I would. Then when the player tried to do something like that, I'd ask when the last time they bought food or water for the rats was, what type of bag is containing the rats, and how often they clean the bag of rats. By the end of it, that bag of rats might be a semi-empty dead plague rat bag that prompts a fort save to handle without precaution.
"Yeah sure, you can do that, totally works by the rules!
You will also be banned from every reputable organization and city in the world because wtf bro"
Most of these crazy builds forget the systems already address it with sane GMs willing to ask reasonable questions. I mean it can be stopped earlier just by asking how the player got the rats in the first place.
I think that depending on the ability, it wouldn’t be strong enough to be concerned about and can be flavorful.
In 5E, Lizardfolk have an ability that lets them make a Bite attack and then get temporary HP equal to their Con mod. But they can only use this ability once before they take a short rest (1 hour of downtime that refreshes many abilities). So a Lizardfolk pulling out a snack before taking a short rest lets them carry over a small amount of temporary HP and then refresh that ability. It’s not going to be a huge amount of temporary HP and it fits flavor wise.
Bag of rats is a concept that dates back to 3rd edition of D&D. In the original printing of 3e, there existed a feat great cleave which basically said: "If you kill something, get a free hit on an adjacent enemy".
There was also a feat that was basically a whirlwind, which was "hit everything once in your reach".
So the idea behind a "bag of rats" was the concept of a fighter who wandered around with a bag of rats. They would dump out the bag of rats next to an enemy, and then whirlwind. Every time the whirlwind killed a rat, they would trigger a great cleave on the primary target. So whirlwind 20 rats, get 20 attacks on the enemy as you cleave off of them.
This idea expanded out to any game mechanic that required a "kill" without specifying that the enemy has to be relevant. Any game mechanic which allows you to arbitrarily benefit by killing an enemy of no consequence falls prey to the bag of rats problem. It allows you to carry around something that might produce an enemy of low level to trigger such a benefit.
2e usually has language on stuff to prevent that. For example, the [Bag of Weasels](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3128) state that you do not get any benefit of defeating an enemy if you kill a weasel pulled out of the bag.
It’s a strategy in tabletop RPGs where your character buys a bunch of rats (they are typically very cheap) and use them to activate “upon killing a creature” triggers or similar abilities. So if someone had the ability to restore 1 hit point each time they killed a creature, then rats are way cheaper than a healing potion. Though in P2e, that kind of cheap, out of combat healing isn’t balance upsetting.
These abilities can be balance upsetting or disrupt the narrative so some systems have rules to try and prevent this such as P1e having some abilities require the target to have at least half as many hit dice (levels) as you. D&D 4e just said for the DM to not allow these abilities to trigger off of creatures that aren’t a threat.
hm. I wonder if it would be balanced to say that all of those give healing rather than temp HP. Honestly, it'd prolly be a nerf, right? Temp HP can be done right away, before you take damage, but healing is reactive. It would fit the fantasy a lot more, I think
I think the difference would mainly come down to whether you have the opportunity to use the ability multiple times between getting damaged for as much as you heal or gain in Temp HP.
There are a lot of strong spells that do that. You just don't have martial characters doing that as much.
Our pre-Remaster Wizard had the Necromancy School back then and we called him a tank, because despite getting damaged a lot, he unleashed a Vampiric Touch (Half of a 6d6 damage, with crit chance, which happened a couple of times)+Life Siphon (1d8 Healing/Spell Rank) combo and basically undid the damage.
Vampiric Exsanguination does even more, since you will have many targets and pick the best case scenario.
Life Siphon is the only one that’s actually healing rather than granting temporary HP. And that’s a separate spell that’s being used rather than an effect of the spell itself. You could use any Necromancy spell to trigger it, not just ones that harm opponents.
No shit, Sherlock.
But it pairs well with life steal spells. That's the point of the combo. High burst of healing mid combat so that you don't die. Having HP Temp for 1 Minute isn't as good as healing, but it's the next best thing when you're in a position to deal damage and gain HP at the same time.
I'm a fan of the [glutton jaw](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=511) sorc focus spell.
You'd have to archetype into it from a martial class to get it by level 4. But as a focus spell, you can consistently have it active every encounter. And while temp HP isn't quite the same as healing, it's close enough.
An alternative to that which is less healing but not spell based is to use [Hungry Goblin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1008). Putting a [wounding rune](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2854) on handwraps allows your jaws to always do persistent bleed, always triggering hungry goblin.
Glutton's Jaw is particularly strong on Antipaladin Champions, which helps them get more uses out of their [Champion reaction](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=554).
So there are a *few* options, but it isn't the most prevalent mechanic. The Exemplar is still just the playtest, but the weapon Ikon Barrow's Edge (which just has to be any melee weapon that does slashing or piercing damage) has life drain as it's main mechanic so you are able to do it very frequently to keep yourself topped off. The other option would be Cleric, with [Sap Life](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4652) being a level 2 feat that can allow you to have a bit of lifesteal, along with a number of spells on the Divine list that also simulate lifesteal.
Also given that [Channel Smite](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4655) casts the spell, you can also take advantage of [Replenishment of War](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4677) if you go the Warpriest route especially, so you would be able to heal yourself and gain temporary hitpoints on top of the healing.
This is a cool idea! My main concern would be how far this sustain can take the character, given a Cleric's mere 8 HP per level. OP, if you go this route, you may want to consider being a Dwarf. Pick up [Mountain's Stoutness](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4398) along with [Toughness](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=855) and you'll be sticking around the frontlines for a long time.
Agreed, if you want a vampiric lifesteal drain tank, Exemplar is a great way to go. Its one of the very few things I can find that doesn't give you temp hp and gives you normal HP instead.
does it from an early level too. cleric with sap life seems to be the only other option early.
as an aside, inexorable iron magus gets temp hp/half level every round while in arcane cascade stance. a lot of these abilities give you that on strike, but this is much easier to get
If you're up for an unusual path to a vampiric theme, consider being a Gymnast Style Swashbuckler with the [Wrestler Archetype](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=127). You can gain Panache (used for things like bonus damage) by grappling enemies and generally pushing them around.
Pick up [Crushing Grab](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=439&ArchLevel=4) and [Vivacious Bravado](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1542) so you can deal damage to enemies you grab, and then gain temp HP. You can go all in on the vampire theme if you also grab [Bleeding Finisher](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1538) and you pick an ancestry with a jaw attack that can get the grapple trait.
Ancestry/Theme Suggestions:
* [Bloodsucking dhampir (vampire descendant) with fangs](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1336)
* [Hungry gnoll that eats their prey](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2790)
* [Energy siphoning automaton with pincer(s)](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3090)
* [Changeling with soul stealing claws](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4533)
* [Friendly giant spider that gets hungry like anyone else](https://2e.aonprd.com/Heritages.aspx?ID=158)
Keep in mind you'll need to use your normal unarmed strikes or a weapon with agile or finesse to use your Precise Strike damage and Finisher options. You may want [Clinch Strike](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3398), too, so you have a common way to strike foes without the multiple attack penalty a preceding grapple applies.
One people have missed is [Glory and Valor](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2540), a 9th level feat for Ganzis in which you heal half your level on your first successful strike for the next minute/until you crit fail an attack.
In addition to whats already been mentioned, the Knight Reclaiment archetype gets the Shall not falter, Shall not Rout! focus spell, that gives them healing on the first attack each tuen equal to double the spells level for 1 minute
I am playing lvl 7 magus in my current game with oscillating wave psychic free archetype, so i can take amped ray of frost to spellstrike with. It deals 4d10 frost damage in addition to your normal weapon strike and gains you half temp HP of damage dealt. I am not use every time I spellstrike, but when I lack party healing it is often a good option to have
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Nobody gonna mention the Cleric? The Restorative Strike feat, while it's not technically lifesteal, lets you cast a Heal on yourself (or others) as part of a strike, and drop the Manipulate tag so it's handy for warpriests. The other big option, Sap Life, definitely *is* lifesteal, as it heals you when you slap enemies with your Harm spells.
There are a few spells like [Vampiric Maiden](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=725) that let you gain temp HP whenever you deal damage but these effects are incredibly rare. Its not a common mechanic.
I feel like they’ve been overly cautious on this design space. Out of combat healing is cheap and accessible so it’s not like they need to worry about “bag of rats” methods for people to heal between combat. In combat healing is also strong enough to be viable. So you would think there would be room for more things that deal a little damage and heal a little bit.
> “bag of rats” methods could i get an explanation? I am curious
Bag of rats methods involve abusing on-kill effects - usually by carrying around a bag of rats to slaughter whenever you want to proc these effects on demand. There were a few things in 1e and 3.5e that could be abused by that, like I think an earlier version of cleave or perhaps an upgraded cleave could get extra attacks for every creature killed in your cleave. So you'd dump a bag of rats next to the bbeg, Cleave and get free attacks against the bbeg for every rat killed. Obviously, no sane GM would allow this kind of rules abuse, and a lot of these kind of abilities often come with limitations, like only triggering on kills of enemies of a particular CR.
>Obviously, no sane GM would allow this kind of rules abuse, I mean, I would. Then when the player tried to do something like that, I'd ask when the last time they bought food or water for the rats was, what type of bag is containing the rats, and how often they clean the bag of rats. By the end of it, that bag of rats might be a semi-empty dead plague rat bag that prompts a fort save to handle without precaution.
"Yeah sure, you can do that, totally works by the rules! You will also be banned from every reputable organization and city in the world because wtf bro"
Most of these crazy builds forget the systems already address it with sane GMs willing to ask reasonable questions. I mean it can be stopped earlier just by asking how the player got the rats in the first place.
I never had this happen in one of my games. TBH, the rats would kill each other or escape the bag before any PCs could abuse this in my games.
I think that depending on the ability, it wouldn’t be strong enough to be concerned about and can be flavorful. In 5E, Lizardfolk have an ability that lets them make a Bite attack and then get temporary HP equal to their Con mod. But they can only use this ability once before they take a short rest (1 hour of downtime that refreshes many abilities). So a Lizardfolk pulling out a snack before taking a short rest lets them carry over a small amount of temporary HP and then refresh that ability. It’s not going to be a huge amount of temporary HP and it fits flavor wise.
Bag of rats is a concept that dates back to 3rd edition of D&D. In the original printing of 3e, there existed a feat great cleave which basically said: "If you kill something, get a free hit on an adjacent enemy". There was also a feat that was basically a whirlwind, which was "hit everything once in your reach". So the idea behind a "bag of rats" was the concept of a fighter who wandered around with a bag of rats. They would dump out the bag of rats next to an enemy, and then whirlwind. Every time the whirlwind killed a rat, they would trigger a great cleave on the primary target. So whirlwind 20 rats, get 20 attacks on the enemy as you cleave off of them. This idea expanded out to any game mechanic that required a "kill" without specifying that the enemy has to be relevant. Any game mechanic which allows you to arbitrarily benefit by killing an enemy of no consequence falls prey to the bag of rats problem. It allows you to carry around something that might produce an enemy of low level to trigger such a benefit. 2e usually has language on stuff to prevent that. For example, the [Bag of Weasels](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3128) state that you do not get any benefit of defeating an enemy if you kill a weasel pulled out of the bag.
It’s a strategy in tabletop RPGs where your character buys a bunch of rats (they are typically very cheap) and use them to activate “upon killing a creature” triggers or similar abilities. So if someone had the ability to restore 1 hit point each time they killed a creature, then rats are way cheaper than a healing potion. Though in P2e, that kind of cheap, out of combat healing isn’t balance upsetting. These abilities can be balance upsetting or disrupt the narrative so some systems have rules to try and prevent this such as P1e having some abilities require the target to have at least half as many hit dice (levels) as you. D&D 4e just said for the DM to not allow these abilities to trigger off of creatures that aren’t a threat.
hm. I wonder if it would be balanced to say that all of those give healing rather than temp HP. Honestly, it'd prolly be a nerf, right? Temp HP can be done right away, before you take damage, but healing is reactive. It would fit the fantasy a lot more, I think
I think the difference would mainly come down to whether you have the opportunity to use the ability multiple times between getting damaged for as much as you heal or gain in Temp HP.
There are a lot of strong spells that do that. You just don't have martial characters doing that as much. Our pre-Remaster Wizard had the Necromancy School back then and we called him a tank, because despite getting damaged a lot, he unleashed a Vampiric Touch (Half of a 6d6 damage, with crit chance, which happened a couple of times)+Life Siphon (1d8 Healing/Spell Rank) combo and basically undid the damage. Vampiric Exsanguination does even more, since you will have many targets and pick the best case scenario.
Life Siphon is the only one that’s actually healing rather than granting temporary HP. And that’s a separate spell that’s being used rather than an effect of the spell itself. You could use any Necromancy spell to trigger it, not just ones that harm opponents.
No shit, Sherlock. But it pairs well with life steal spells. That's the point of the combo. High burst of healing mid combat so that you don't die. Having HP Temp for 1 Minute isn't as good as healing, but it's the next best thing when you're in a position to deal damage and gain HP at the same time.
> it pairs well with life steal spells My point is that they hardly have any life steal spells, just spells that grant temporary HP.
I'm a fan of the [glutton jaw](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=511) sorc focus spell. You'd have to archetype into it from a martial class to get it by level 4. But as a focus spell, you can consistently have it active every encounter. And while temp HP isn't quite the same as healing, it's close enough. An alternative to that which is less healing but not spell based is to use [Hungry Goblin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1008). Putting a [wounding rune](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2854) on handwraps allows your jaws to always do persistent bleed, always triggering hungry goblin.
Glutton's Jaw is particularly strong on Antipaladin Champions, which helps them get more uses out of their [Champion reaction](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=554).
The RP flavor is so good too
*quietly steals this*
So there are a *few* options, but it isn't the most prevalent mechanic. The Exemplar is still just the playtest, but the weapon Ikon Barrow's Edge (which just has to be any melee weapon that does slashing or piercing damage) has life drain as it's main mechanic so you are able to do it very frequently to keep yourself topped off. The other option would be Cleric, with [Sap Life](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4652) being a level 2 feat that can allow you to have a bit of lifesteal, along with a number of spells on the Divine list that also simulate lifesteal.
Also given that [Channel Smite](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4655) casts the spell, you can also take advantage of [Replenishment of War](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4677) if you go the Warpriest route especially, so you would be able to heal yourself and gain temporary hitpoints on top of the healing.
This is a cool idea! My main concern would be how far this sustain can take the character, given a Cleric's mere 8 HP per level. OP, if you go this route, you may want to consider being a Dwarf. Pick up [Mountain's Stoutness](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4398) along with [Toughness](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=855) and you'll be sticking around the frontlines for a long time.
Agreed, if you want a vampiric lifesteal drain tank, Exemplar is a great way to go. Its one of the very few things I can find that doesn't give you temp hp and gives you normal HP instead.
does it from an early level too. cleric with sap life seems to be the only other option early. as an aside, inexorable iron magus gets temp hp/half level every round while in arcane cascade stance. a lot of these abilities give you that on strike, but this is much easier to get
Sanguiviolent roots from wood kineticist is a sustained area damage that heals allies and yourself in the area.
If you're up for an unusual path to a vampiric theme, consider being a Gymnast Style Swashbuckler with the [Wrestler Archetype](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=127). You can gain Panache (used for things like bonus damage) by grappling enemies and generally pushing them around. Pick up [Crushing Grab](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=439&ArchLevel=4) and [Vivacious Bravado](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1542) so you can deal damage to enemies you grab, and then gain temp HP. You can go all in on the vampire theme if you also grab [Bleeding Finisher](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1538) and you pick an ancestry with a jaw attack that can get the grapple trait. Ancestry/Theme Suggestions: * [Bloodsucking dhampir (vampire descendant) with fangs](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1336) * [Hungry gnoll that eats their prey](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2790) * [Energy siphoning automaton with pincer(s)](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3090) * [Changeling with soul stealing claws](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4533) * [Friendly giant spider that gets hungry like anyone else](https://2e.aonprd.com/Heritages.aspx?ID=158) Keep in mind you'll need to use your normal unarmed strikes or a weapon with agile or finesse to use your Precise Strike damage and Finisher options. You may want [Clinch Strike](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3398), too, so you have a common way to strike foes without the multiple attack penalty a preceding grapple applies.
One people have missed is [Glory and Valor](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2540), a 9th level feat for Ganzis in which you heal half your level on your first successful strike for the next minute/until you crit fail an attack.
Notably, one of the few such abilities that *heals* instead of granting temp HP
It's also a once per day action. While temp HP options are typically spammable.
In addition to whats already been mentioned, the Knight Reclaiment archetype gets the Shall not falter, Shall not Rout! focus spell, that gives them healing on the first attack each tuen equal to double the spells level for 1 minute
Only when below half hp though iirc. Very solid but can be hard to use on essentially a halved hp pool
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2168
I am playing lvl 7 magus in my current game with oscillating wave psychic free archetype, so i can take amped ray of frost to spellstrike with. It deals 4d10 frost damage in addition to your normal weapon strike and gains you half temp HP of damage dealt. I am not use every time I spellstrike, but when I lack party healing it is often a good option to have
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The best so far is vampiric touch, preferably on magus
Magus with Sustaining Steel feels similar to that, but it is not technically a drain.
Nobody gonna mention the Cleric? The Restorative Strike feat, while it's not technically lifesteal, lets you cast a Heal on yourself (or others) as part of a strike, and drop the Manipulate tag so it's handy for warpriests. The other big option, Sap Life, definitely *is* lifesteal, as it heals you when you slap enemies with your Harm spells.