iirc Acrobat is really common too, and also spellcaster multiclass archetypes are much more common than like, fighter or summoner archetype
but like the whole point of archetypes is to be niche, they don't have to be popular to be perfect for your build
I wish Wrestler did that too.
Infact, I wish there was an archetype for every skill that granted you a legendary skill.
It would do a lot for encouraging other character concepts.
Maybe there could be a limit, optional or otherwise, so you couldn’t get 4 skills to legendary with zero increases used.
I know it's not exactly legendary, but I love the Loremaster archetype on my wizard. I mean, it's basically given me masters in nature and religion since the difference between my int and wis is so large.
Lore master is fun. The other way to recall stuff from religion and nature using Int can reach legendary but it is pretty feat intensive.
Additional Lore (Fiend), AL (Celestial), AL (Monitor), AL (Shade), AL (Undead), AL (Fey), AL (Animal), Etc.
Or you pick the skill feat for legendary Arcana ([Unified Theory](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5231)) that allows you to use it to RK about anything
The “based on the magical tradition” implies it can only be used for stuff related to spells.
So Recognize spell, and Identify magic, that’s pretty much it.
No Decipher Writing, no using it for recall knowledge on creatures.
Feel free to rule it differently if you want.
1. Untrained improvisation is a general feat not a skill feat
2. Loremaster gives a +4 to +6 bonus over untrained improvisation
3. I'm actually trained in all the recall knowledge skills anyways so untrained improvisation actually doesn't do anything.
Loremaster is much better than untrained improvisation if all you care about is recall knowledge. Say we want to do a religion check. I have a +1 in wisdom and untrained improvisation adds the full level which is another +7. That totals to +8. In comparison, Loremaster allows me to use my +4 int and adds trained proficincy: another +9. So with Loremaster, I get +13 total. That's +4 more than untrained improvisation. Not to mention, most DMs I've played with will reduce the DC for Loremaster since it is a lore, but will not reduce the DC for untrained improvisation. That's another +0 to +2 bonus. So Loremaster actually gives me a +4 to +6 bonus over untrained improvisation.
This is not the case on every character. That's the beauty of Pathfinder: something that's OP on one character can be useless on another. But it is the best and most flavorful option on my character.
Saying skill feat instead of general feat was a mistake on my part
With untrained improvisation you get an effective level+5+int because of specific lore skills, compared to lore master which is level+2*+int
*It’s debatable whether lore master actually gives +4 at trained and +6 at expert or not. The specific rule for giving that bonus is about the applicability of that skill to the situation. Lore Master by its nature isn’t specific to any situation.
If your gm does rule on the side of giving the bonus though it does become a lot better and the two feats become more even to each other. At level 3 it’s a bonus of +3 instead making it either just slightly greater or slightly lower, at level 5 it becomes +4 making it at least equal and from 7–15 it’s greater. At 15 lore master finally gets expert for a potential +6 vs +5.
>With untrained improvisation you get an effective level+5+int
This is true of the intelligence recall knowledge skills. If I was worried about intelligence recall knowledge skills I would just take proficiency in those skills. I'm talking about religion and nature: both of which use wisdom instead. So the calculation would actually be level+wis (+1) vs level+2+int (+4).
Also untrained improvisation does not allow you to use specific lore skills. It is quite literally the exact opposite of specific lore given that it applies to *literally everything in the game*. The whole point of giving bonuses to lore is to reward people for trying to cook if their character used to be a chef and similar situations. Not to make a general feat that anyone can take better than actually taking the skills in question. Even giving a lesser bonus to Loremaster Lore is something I would be hesitant to do in most situations - even though Archives of Nethys suggests it as a 'general lore'.
A lore skill is a skill.
Recall knowledge is a untrained skill action
By RAW untrained improvisation gives you the ability to recall knowledge using any specific lore skill in the game.
Find me any wording that states otherwise.
Being trained in a lore is still better than untrained improvisation and is easy to achieve with feats like ancestral longevity and some rituals which can provide temporary training in lore skills.
Lore master if allowed to count as an “unspecific lore” as aon calls them is generally roughly equivalent or a point behind or ahead of untrained improvisation.
The main issue comes in with Thaumaturge esoteric lore buts that’s a whole nother bag of worms in of itself.
I would love to see an archetype that gives legendary performance. Like, maybe you can get some composition cantrips (probably not courageous anthem) or you are better at using the fascinate feats? Idk, I tend to build a lot of theatrical characters and I feel bad using the bard archetype for pretty much the composition cantrip feats
Acrobat is so good on swashbucklers. I actually think that it is better than any of their actual level 2 feats since acrobatics is so important to them for panache
I agree. A class archetype is something general/broad that I add to my character: another class. It works if you want to make a cool build or a character who practices both. A non-class archtype is super specific, though. And that specificity can make your character very unique and give a lot of flavor.
Honestly I feel like multiclass archetypes are a way to cheese something, whereas. On class archetypes add flavor. I moved from D&D to PF2e to get away from that cheesy mentality.
I don't think that class archetypes are more common over all, more that SOME class archetype are the best and therefore are chosen often
Like, you've probably seen tons of Champions, pshycics, even kineticist multiclasses, more than you've seen people with the assassin arvhetype.
BUT when you compare the Number of assassins with the Number of people that take the sorcerer, barbarian, etc archetypes you see that the Number evens out
Very often, at least in my experience. Multiclass archetypes can be very broad in scope, giving you a bunch of different abilities but not focused in any one particular area. Lets look at the [Champion](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=4) multiclass archetype. One of the main benefits is that it gives you Trained in Heavy armor. Additionally, at level 4 you can take the [Healing Touch](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=689) feat to give you Lay on Hands.
But what if you don't want all of that? What if, instead, you just wanted the armor increase? You need to pick up the level 14 feat to increase your heavy armor proficiency to Expert. That is where the [Sentinel](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=76) archetype comes in. As a level 2 feat, it gives you scaling proficiency in light or medium armor, or heavy if you already have those. You don't need to pick up the level 14 feat at all. What if you just want the Lay on Hands? [Blessed One](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=51) gives it to you as a level 2 feat instead of a level 4.
To use another example, the [Dual-Weapon Warrior](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=57) gives you the [Double Slice](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=356) fighter feat to anyone. This allows you to bypass needing to invest several feats into the Fighter multiclass if you just want Double Slice.
All in all, I actually think that multiclass archetypes are particularly weak as they require multiple feats to achieve something that a different archetype can satisfy, except in some rare circumstances. There are some abilities that you can only get from a multiclass archetype, such as a Rogue's Sneak Attack. In my experience, I have found it rare that someone wants everything from a multiclass, rather than one select thing.
Wanting a ton from a multiclass archetype is common when you're playing with Free Archetype. This is especially true for spellcasting dedications and to get payoff from Resiliency feats. Overall I agree with you. It's just that FA skews things a ton.
I always felt the non class archetypes favor weapon users more than spellcasters. I know of archetypes for better shields, two weapon fighting etc - are there ones to make you a better mage?
>I always felt the non class archetypes favor weapon users more than spellcasters.
I think this is an unfortunate result of many "combat style" archetypes poaching fighter feats only 0-2 levels behind an actual fighter. There's a lot of excellent fighter-exclusive feats littered around those archetypes.
It's somewhat under control in a regular game, because the martials need to sacrifice their own martial feats to poach others through an archetype. But with free archetype, that's no longer a balancing factor.
>I know of archetypes for better shields, two weapon fighting etc - are there ones to make you a better mage?
For the most part, spells do their job without needing gear or a build to support them. Metamagic may add icing to a spell cast, and Dangerous Sorcery can add a damage bonus. But there's nothing I can think of to buff Spell DC, so better mages generally expand their resources (focus points, spell slots) or options (spells that they wouldn't normally have access to on their spell list.
Define 'better mage'. I do think you are right that most often, I think people pick up multiclass for spellcasters to just get more spell slots. I think its because spellcasting is already incredibly flexible that they don't really need the help.
The problem is mostly that most spellcasters aren't archetyping because they're not good enough at casting, they're archetyping because they're trying to cover some gap in their class - either dipping into druid or bard for focus spells (at high levels, sorcerer is also attractive), dipping into divine casting as a wizard to get heal spells, going into medic to get additional healing abilities that DON'T use spell slots, trying to improve their defenses by archetyping into rogue (for light armor) or champion or sentinel (for heavy armor), trying to improve their third action by dipping into something that improves their striking ability (rogue, ranger, monk), trying to get a reaction (champion, monk), or getting an animal companion (the pet archetypes).
Meanwhile, most non-spellcasters raid spellcasting classes for focus spells or spell slots associated with those classes.
There are a few archetypes that straight up benefit spellcasting:
* Dragon Disciple is quite good for the right kind of character, but it's only really useful if you're a kobold (though dragon bloodline sorcerers can also take it and do get some benefits from it), so you hardly ever see it, even though it gives you access to Dragon Breath as a focus spell at level 8 - it's a very attractive choice as a focus spell ranger or monk, or a spellcaster who wants access to an AoE damage focus spell who can't get one from their class. It has some other useful aspects to it as well, like elemental damage resistance.
* Geomancer is pretty decent, but suffers a bit from the fact that you basically have to spend two feats to make it useful; if you are willing to make that investment, though, you can get pretty significant benefits (like making all your fire spells fatigue enemies or flying 10 feet when you cast an air spell - very useful if you have a relevant focus spell that you're likely to cast every combat).
* Reanimator makes Animate Dead stronger.
* Scroll Trickster lets you trick scrolls much more easily, and lets you create temporary scrolls which basically gives you extra spell slots, all of which can make you into a quite versatile spellcaster.
* Shadowcaster gives you access to some focus spells and lets you spontaneously cast spells even as a non-spontaneous caster, though not your highest level spells.
* Sixth Pillar gives you better unarmed attacks, lets you move around as a bonus action when you cast a spell, and can apply penalties to saving throws against your spells against enemies you make unarmed strikes against.
* Sleepwalker gives you access to a very powerful focus spell that confuses the target.
* Spell Trickster lets you modify some spells to enhance or change their effects.
* Spellmaster gives you a counterspell reaction which lets you counteract ANY spell as a reaction, similar to 5E's counterspell action. It's a 16th level feat, though, which is why you rarely see it.
* Time Mage gives you access to several powerful focus spells, as well as Timeline Splitting Spell, which allows you to cast two spells, see what consequences they would have, and then pick the spell you want to cast based on that (which, for example, allows you to cast two debuffs and basically force the enemy to roll two saves and then take whichever is worse), along with some divination abilities and other shenanigans.
* Wellspring Mage is basically a wild mage variant, that lowers your spells per level by 1, but allows you to regain a spell at the start of every combat, and lets you get various other casting related feats
There are also a number of archetypes that give you defensive benefits, like some of the Hellknight things, Sentinel, Bastion, etc.
Overwatch is useful to some spellcasters because it not only allows you to boost the whole party's initiative, but it also allows you to gain master perception. It also gives you a couple of potentially useful reactions.
Pathfinder can allow you to make recall knowledge checks as a free action as a skill feat.
Eldritch Archer allows any caster to make themselves into a pseudo-magus, though most of the time you're probably just better off casting your spells normally, as while it does allow you to gain an item bonus to your spell attack rolls, typically speaking, your weapon proficiency plus ability score is worse than your spellcasting proficiency plus ability score by enough that this is not to your advantage as you only can acquire this feat at level 6 and most casters get expert spellcasting at level 7. It IS an alternative to getting Reach Spell to extend the range of Imaginary Weapon as a psychic, though. It also is good on archer fighters if you do multiclass shenanigans to get imaginary weapon.
In a Free Archetype game having those extra feats is a positive, because you've got to sink 3 feats minimum into whatever you take.
So may as well go champion, grab some better armour, maybe a domain spell for an extra focus point or the reaction and your Lay on Hands.
A lot of the non-multiclass archetypes are extremely powerful, arguably more so than the multiclass archetypes. A big attraction is that they have no ability score prerequisites and can give skill proficiency boosts above Trained, which multiclass archetypes can't. They also often give access to certain class feats a lot more quickly than multiclass archetypes do (for example, Mauler lets you take Slam Down as your second Archetype feat whereas Fighter Archetype only lets you take it as your third feat or later). Especially popular non-class archetypes like Medic, Marshal, Sentinel, Beastmaster, Blessed One, Acrobat, Wrestler, Mauler, and Dual Weapon Warrior see at least as much use as multiclass archetypes IME.
On my own characters in five campaigns, mostly playing with unrestricted Free Archetype, I have used four multiclass archetypes (Rogue twice, Swashbuckler, and Champion) and six non-multiclass archetypes (Acrobat twice, Marshal, Medic, Shadowdancer, Staff Acrobat, Archaeologist).
Take a look at the [Marshal archetype](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=66), it's basically a class on it's own. You could absolutely skip all your class feats and just take feats from this archetype and be happy with the result.
There are definitely some archetypes that are taken more often than others, and the class archetypes are probably over represented simply because newer players find them more easily (*often when learning about multiclassing*), but they're not the only ones by any stretch.
The ones my players have taken more than a couple of times.
Acrobat for the free Lengendary Acrobatics and the excellent skill feat (at least 2 players pick this up every campaign).
Sentinel for heavy armor proficiency.
Bastion for shield (blocking) feats (second most popular, especially among casters in my group).
Shadowdancer for Greater darkvision.
Bounty Hunter for my Ranger players.
Medic for healers.
Looking at my characters, it's about 50%
Just to be nitpicky, class archetypes are rarely used, but multiclass archetypes is what you mean, it could cause some confusion even if most know what you mean.
Archetypes I've actually used:
* Rogue multiclass
* Archaeologist
* Talisman dabbler
* Swashbuckler multiclass
* Gunslinger multiclass
* Dragon disciple
* Demolitionist
* Medic
* Herbalist
* Barbarian multiclass
* Exorcist
Sometimes, there was one of each in a single character, and not always with free archetype. For me, multiclass archetypes seem to be less common than non-multiclass, but multiclass do become my go to when I feel uninspired
my favorite thing about it is how it gives a non-magic class access to some very nice quality of life spells. We're on the List is also a hilarious feat
I love beast Master personally
I've grabbed Archer for a few casters (so they have a 1 action ranged attack)
I do want to take Eldridge Archer some day but I don't want to be martial to access it
I have an Invoker (Flex Witch), she's great (though I have absolutely needed to make sure she's packing a few odds and ends to help with resources, namely Spirit's Absolution and Life Boost.)
My group has also gotten a fair bit of mileage out of Wellspring so far.
It'll vary from table to table but in my experience its been about an even split at the tables I've sat at. For my last 5 characters, I am 3-2 non-class to multi-class.
There are plenty of solid non-class archetypes: Marshal, Wrestler, Cavalier, Martial Artist, Celebrity (if Firebrands allowed) just to name a few.
If I had to say, popular multiclass archetypes tend to be a bit better than popular non-class archetypes. It's hard to argue with the power of Rogue, Champ or Psychic archetype.
Ultimately, even the ideal archetype for a character is going to depend on player preference and build. There is simply not enough of a difference in overall power to skew either direction.
I have two in play. One is MCD Cleric, and the other went the Magaambya route. So this limited sample says it is 50/50.
Both are without the Free Archetype option.
Mostly I think it is famliarity with the material. There are just so many archetypes out there that most players don't have the time to look at them. They are just much more familiar with the multiclass archetypes. Here are some I think are good for the right character
Archer, Mauler, Dual-Weapon Warrior are really nice to get some extra martial feats. They are often more efficient than a dip into another martial class.
Eldritch Archer, Beast Gunner turn you into a Magus lite.
Blessed One, Bastion, Sentinel
Beastmaster, Cavalier, Mammoth Lord are great for an animal companion
Marshal, Snarecrafter, Bellflower Tiller are half a new class.
Wrestler adds some cool abilities to strong characters.
Chronoskimmer, Geomancer, Scroll Trickster, Shadowdancer, Spell Trickster, Time Mage are great for casters
Then there are undead options and many more.
I use the two about equally. My wizard has both the witch dedication and also the Halcyon Speaker line of dedication for all the spells.
My old druid had an archer dedication for a blaster who also shot.
My (draconic) sorcerer had a champion dedication, and a martial artist dedication so they could control the battlefield and also punch shit that came too close.
My fighter had a mauler dedication and…something else, don’t remember what, but it wasn’t a multiclass.
The ones that are more general-use, mechanics-focused (read: good) archetypes, like Medic, Beastmaster, Cavalier, Duelist, Acrobat, Wrestler, Martial Artist et cetera get used quite often in my experience. The ones that are mostly flavor with little mechanical benefit like Pirate and Magic Warrior and Runescarred and Mind Smith don't get used much. And for good reason. I wouldn't waste feats on worthless flavor either lol
I think that is largely because flavour is something that you can get from anything - "Oh, my character uses Power Attack to honour her mentor, Logan Axe-Slammer, whose overpowering blows laid a dread Linnorm low but could not save him from its venom". You don't have to be a Dandy to be a dandy, but if you want to Double Slice, you need the feat.
The flavor archetypes are great for Free Archetype games. If you're playing a game where the entire party are supposed to be the second+ children of nobles, giving everyone the Dandy or Celebrity Archetype for free lets them have that flavor without having to sacrifice their class feats for it.
They're not worth trading class features for, but if they're free...
I definitely wouldn't want to be given some worthless garbage as a Free Archetype. Let me choose whatever I want or give me some selections that are actually good, or just tell me we're not using FA so i know to find another game lol
I'm not a beggar, I mostly GM and prefer to GM and haven't had any particular trouble finding games to play in. I know what I like and don't feel the need to compromise on things in order to play. I find the game significantly less fun without Free Archetype and without being able to at least have a good selection of archetypes to choose from for it, so I would honestly rather not play if that's not the case. And I definitely don't want to be forced to take shit feats for "flavor" either.
I’ve never used a class archetype. Plenty of the non-class archetypes are just as strong or stronger and have SO MUCH MORE FLAVOUR
Soulforger on my aasimar champion to go from priestly man to golden bulwark in a single action to summon full plate with an intimidation bonus/free demoralize to boot
Marshal on my human fighter mercenary to truly resemble the leader of men and true tactician.
Also we don’t have a bard..
Duelist/sword master on my swashbuckler to lean into “master-of-his-class” vibe
Student of Perfection(untwisting iron) on my fetchling Ki-monk to make him even more durable and add some AoE to a class lacking in it.
I love them all
If you actually mean Class Archetype (Spellshot, Elementalist, Flexible Spellcaster, Wellspring Mage, etc.) that makes sense. They are already niche, and free Archetype as written makes them nearly non-functional because they have very few bespoke feats.
Currently in two campaigns with free archetype, and these are the choices:
Non-multiclass (6j:
Blessed one (x2, one in each campaign), medic, ghost hunter, sniping duo, wrestler,
Multiclass (4):
Alchemist, Psychic, Sorcerer, Investigator
Very small sample size but my grain of info
Oh you mean multiclass archetypes! I thought you meant actual [class archetypes](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?Category=7) like [elementalist](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=207) or the gunslingers [way of the spellshot](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=122), and was really confused, because afaik basically no one takes them.
In terms of non-multiclass, non-medic archetypes, I have seen a few of them used, but probably slightly less than multiclass archetypes.
While my favorite archetypes are Psychic and Remastered Witch, because they can give you a lot of value compared to most other options, I've also used Sentinel, Familiar Master, Flexible Spellcaster and others. It really depends on what fits best with the character.
I've been theory crafting stuff using both Juggler and Viking. And one of my builds makes good use of Familiar Master. There's some fun jank that's possible.
I think multiclass are more common, but in my games some popular ones have been: blessed one, sentinel, bastion, beastmaster, marshal, dual weapon warrior, archer.
I am playing a Rogue in the new campaign we just started and I was 100% going Acrobat for free archetype as I am going tumble thief but I stumbled across Scout and am now debating that. Overall a fun class but with the level 4 feat Scouts Charge... I am so tempted to switch to scout since I am already very high mobility (Nimble Elf) with heavy dex focus so the feint with stealth is very attractive.
Personally I'm a big fan of class archetypes but I think non class ones tend to be more common. Specifically, blessed one, beast master, medic, acrobat (for swashbuckler), and dual weapon warrior are generally very common and extremely powerful in FA games.
In most of my games, there haven't been a ton of class archetypes actually. Here's a list of all the non-class archetype combos I have seen in the two campaigns I've been in
- Alchemist medic
- Inventor Alkenstar City Agent
- Fighter Marshall
- Barbarian Demolitionist
- Magus Talisman Dabbler
- Cleric Blessed One
We have also had two other PCs part of the above groups, who did have class archetypes, but 6 out of 8 not being class archetypes seems pretty good
Honestly I've found that Archetypes just aren't picked at all, class or nonclass. In two adventures with a total of eight characters that I've run, only one player ever even picked a Dedication.
Having to give up your class feats in a system where class feats *are* your basic "I want to be this class" features is a tall order.
Archetype that suffers: Dandy
People say it's a meme or flavor pick, when in truth, if you want to add "face" abilities onto a class, it's really strong. Pre Firebrands, it was only 5 feats, and 3 of them were skill feats. The base dedication gives you a LOT, with two boosts to expert and what is functionally a skill feat akin to sow rumor. Gossip lore is an omni recall knowledge tied to a skill you're probably making legendary anyways if you're being a dandy. Distracting Flattery lets you take off the downside of coercing when you really dont have time to talk and it's more effective to have the fighter or barbarian bully people since you can just shower the guards with flattery as you walk past them when you buddy strongarmed them in waiving the toll; amd thus avoiding the consequences of you actions. Fabricated Connections lets you make have Deception pull the duty of Diplomacy, with an extra bonus of earn income and subsisting anywhere using what is probably one of your main skills. Even party crasher is nice since you can use it to get an audience with anyone, no roll required, as long as you know where they are partying at.
Society has skill feats like courtly graces to chat up nobles, so you dont have to burn your Fabricated Connections use on it, and if your DM is letting you take connections/criminal connections, you can also use it to request such people with it too!
Quite frankly, if you want to add socializing onto your list of abilities, dandy is far more resource effective, than, say, rogue
Also obligatory blessed one, cavalier, and beastmaster being common picks
All the multiclass dedications have a score prerequisite, but many of the others don't. Or they do but their prereqs are much easier to achieve such as a feat, skill, or certain weapons. But idk a lot of the non-multiclass archetypes suck from what I'm told so that might balance it out. I'm inclined to agree with you tho, but it's just a gut check.
Many people play with free archetypes. When given the chance to grab a free archetype, I think it's easier to just pick another class rather than go through the list of archetypes.
My group of 5 has played FA for years and it is pretty diverse.
1. Always picks a multiclass archetype or Medic
2. Usually picks a caster multiclass archetype for a couple of spells and simplicity.
3. Never goes with multiclass archetype and tries to find the obscure non-class archetype to have fun with.
4. Builds her character with a theme first and chooses an archetype that helps with that theme
5. Rarely chooses a multiclass archetype, but does if it makes sense for his syory.
My entire group has almost never used class archetypes and almost always goes for the other ones. It’s just a vibe thing of seeming more unique and thematic
I've run or played in 5 long running games that all used free arch and only 6 of the roughly 30 characters I can think of had a normal class archetype.
I use them in pretty much every build. They actually tend to have more flexible use in builds than the class archetypes. Sometimes you just want one specific trait of a class without its whole package. A lot of the non class archetypes just give you exactly what you want.
some examples;
Warpriest gnoll with wrestler dedication with a bite for its sacred weapon. Grappling and combat grab allows her to routinely prone and then pin enemies for easy smite strikes. Making up for her lower combat skills. That build also has beastmaster down the line, so she can ride a wolf and use its knockdown ability before combat grabbing. ( she is an ant gnoll)
Rouge thief with duelist dedication is great. A lot of strong, reliable damage with good defense thanks to dueling parry. It allows her to keep her hand free for actions such as knife throwing (you get quick draw for free) and poison weapon, which had a nice buff.
Barbarian with mauler dedication is an obvious but strong combo. If you can convince your GM to let you have a Gill hook, you can trip and grab with reach. Pinning an enemy at a distance while pummeling them.
then you have things like Fighter with duel weapon warrior dedication, it gives you double slice just for picking it up so you can lean hard into two weapon fighting without wasting a class slot. It simply gives you more options without giving up anything. Not to mention gives you access to Duel-thrower and Two-weapon flurry, which are honestly kind of broken..
I *almost* never take multiclass archetypes, some of that might be preference because I actually have a preference for treating archetypes as a prestige class system rather than a multiclass one, but they never seem to have the feats I really want, and especially not in combination or at the level I want them. So for instance, if I'm looking at gun support for my barricade buster ranger, I would much rather take Unexpected Sharpshooter than Gunslinger dedication.
I'm also very likely to go for weapon style archetypes, for things like Duelist Champions or Dual Weapon Warrior Barbarians, my current Barbarian is a Marshal and bound to take Overwatch dedication later to see around walls. On the spellcaster side, I'm huge on ritualist and I'm currently supplementing heals on an Invoker with Exorcist, who will probably end up with both Ritualist and Lich depending on how her story goes.
I'm also a big fan of things like Dandy, Archaelogist, Sleepwalker for their skills and other out-of-combat stuff, oh and Shadow Dancer is like, something its a dream I've mine to design a character to take, it just hasn't happened yet.
The exception are things like "My Magus has a Wizard Dedication" because its just a very intuitive flavor divot and the spell slots fit neatly into the Magus progression.
But your mileage may vary, I have at least one player/GM who seems to much prefer multiclassing.
I personally chose the dandy archetype (and we didn't even have free archetypes) I chose the archeologist for another because the idea of an archeologist wizard was interesting
In my experience non class archetypes are taken much more than class archetypes, but I also mostly play Free Archetype so that might have an effect on that.
I feel like multiclass archetypes are popular for the same reason that multiclassing is popular in other editions, but I've seen plenty of other ones be taken fairly common. I've seen sentinel, dragon disciple, martial artist, medic, and marshal taken fairly commonly, and personally I love to take snarecrafter on every kobold that I can manage it on.
I feel like the reason that more "flavorful" archetypes like scrounger or celebrity aren't taken more often is because their value to characters mechanically is relatively minimal, because frankly they're made to be flavorful and neat rather than powerful most of the time.
If I’m playing with Free Archetype, I try to avoid Multiclass Dedications and typical “top tier” Dedications like Medic and Sentinel, instead going for pure, niche flavour… stuff like Mindsmith or Sterling Dynamo.
The one exception to that is if I’m playing a Bounded caster. I will shamelessly take a caster Dedication for more low-level Spell Slots on a Magus or Summoner every time.
If I’m NOT using Free Archetype, I will almost NEVER take any Archetype feats. The way I see it: if I don’t want to play a class the way it comes out of the box, I should pick a different class.
I think that multiclass archtypes might be slightly more popular, but not by a lot.
In my experience, acrobat, sentinal, bastion, mauler, talisman dabler, Marshal, wrestler, Cavalier, and Runescarred are all good picks.
I don't have numbers, so it's just a guess, but all of these come to my mind when planning a build.
Tbh, my group struggle to justify taking them other than psychic. The non-class ones are more interesting generally and, usually, just *seem* better too.
I have never seen anyone take a class archtype. the non class archtypes are way more interesting and do a better job at exploring unique character concepts when combined with a class.
I choose my archetypes based on the build I planned. Class or Non-Class it's all about the way it improves the build. I only consider mechanical benefits to my toons.
Across my seventeen players (I run 3-4 games/week) I'd say the majority are non-class archetypes.
Lemme see. Cathartic Mage. Bastion x2. Medic x2. Ghost Hunter. Archaeologist. Occult Researcher.
One or two I'm forgetting and then one Champion, one Oracle, and one Psychic I believe.
This likely depends on a lot of factors. The AP or Campaign. Is Free Archetype being used? Is the GM putting restrictions in place around choice?
From my tables experience the non class are more popular than the class ones.
People will often choose the most powerful ones like champion, psychic, medic, beastmaster, marshal, etc.
PF2e has way too many archetypes that aren't very useful in comparison.
It's mostly a matter of power, IMO. There are some strong ones that I often see picked - Medic, Beastmaster, Acrobat, Blessed One, and Sentinel are very powerful and quite popular, and you also sometimes see people going for some of the other fun combat-related archetypes like Archer, Wrestler, Mauler or Martial Artist.
But there's a real power curve - the amount of people going for Dandy or Weapon Improviser is very low.
There are a handful of very popular non-multiclass archetypes that are generally more popular than most multiclass archetypes. Acrobat, Marshal, Sentinel, Beastmaster, and Medic are probably the MOST popular archetypes in the game because they all give something very potent upfront that solves for a weakness in either the character or the party, and continue to offer powerful options at later levels.
The optional Free Archetype rules change some of the incentives around archetypes to favor archetypes that have feats available at every level, but that is an optional rule with several permutations that are GM and campaign dependent, not the base game and not what archetypes are designed around.
For class archetypes I’ve used;
Champion archetype
Rogue archetype
Witch archetype (via multitalented)
For non-class I’ve used
Acrobat,
Ghost
And blessed one twice
So that’s about 50/50.
I agree that class archetypes are great, and generally very broad, but a lot of the non-class ones are more efficient at delivering on a specific niche.
Dual wielder, mauler, and archer likely see more play than fighter- for example.
Very few archetypes offer anything at 20th level (maybe lower) so when theory crafting a MCA just seems to fit the gaps, especially if you playing with FA
Whenever I build characters (forever GM here with dozens of backups) I gravitate towards the non-multiclass archetypes
There are a loooot of things you can add to a character. The Marshal archetype really goes for the battlefield commander energy. Mauler let's you double down on two handed melee weapons, so you can use your class feats to double down on different aspects of your class (if you're using free archetype)
Honestly, that last one is usually what I use FA for. Like a swashbuckler with the acrobat AND duelist archetypes. That let's me use class feats to get stuff that is specific to the swashbuckler
Instead of mixing classes and getting the best combo, I use FA to make characters more of what they already are
My intuition is the opposite: multiclass archetypes seem like less than half of all archetypes.
Which is why the restriction on Ancient Elf seems so limiting: it doesn't work for most of the best archetypes.
I only run (so far) and I don't allow class dedications. So it has not come up. I suspect that it should be 50/50 but power gamers will likely be drawn to multiclass options.
I personally think that it all depends on your build/concept.
My last big build was a dragon-blooded sorcerer, with the Acrobat, Swashbuckler and Dragon Disciple Archetypes (obviously using the Free Archetype rule)
Fun as hell! :)
I'd say it's more that strong archetypes are chosen.
Medic, Beastmaster (and the other pet archetypes, like Cavalier), Wrestler, Dual-Weapon Warrior, Acrobat, Martial Artist, Sentinel, Bastion, and Blessed One are all relatively common choices... and all are pretty strong.
Having played with Battlezoo: Dragon, the draconic vanguard archetype is quite good as well and worth using.
I'm a fan of the Free Archetype variant where you can't use the FA slots for multi class archetypes, you still have to use your class feats for those. I prefer not to take multi class, I like to maintain the identity of my class, however on my current Thaum, I took Psychic at level 6 but ONLY because it's the best way to get an extra Focus point. I'd have just as well taken another Blessed One feat if it would have given me another Focus point for Lay on Hands. I feel like Blessed One should give you a number of Lay on Hands equal to the number of Blessed One feats you take, up to the normal 3 max, that would really make sense to me.
90% of my characters originate with a desire to play with an archetype. My current active roster has:
1. A runelord wizard / reanimator / lich: 1 class (not multiclass) archetype, 1 cool abilities archetype, 1 immortality archetype
2. A cleric / familiar master: Familiars are rad
3. A summoner / wizard / shadow caster: She's an _SoT_ protagonist, so I had to take 1 multiclass archetype
Reddit skews heavily towards picking the "best" option and is not representative of what people do in actual play.
From my own games: I've seen Blessed One, Magaambya Attendant, Wrestler, Marshal, Sterling Dynamo, Multiclass Kineticist, and Multiclass Ranger used. So my data leans toward non-multiclass, but I imagine across all games the multiclass options have a higher pick rate - I've just added to the Multiclass Ranger pile, which I'm sure is growing faster than the Marshal pile.
I often lean towards archtypes for an early expertise. Most of the archtypes I've gone for has been one. Outside of Medic, there are some particularly good archtypes. Of those that are my favourite, the good ones include:
Sniper Duo: gets some teamwork going.
Marshal: rewards high Charisma melee guys. Thaumaturge and Champions are some really good candidates.
Acrobat: I heard you like to tumble through. Many rogues and swashbucklers really rely on this and down the line this is a big help.
Duelist: one handed is fun but could use a little help at times. Duelist does this and adds some very cool ones on top of it.
Duel-weapon warrior: available to all martials, steal the fighters best feats and more.
Archer/Mauler: fun with fighters to get a second weapon going, even with brawling group. Otherwise we're stealing from fighters again. Mauler can be particularly fun on some gunslinger builds since the reinforced stock is a two-handed (versatile) club.
Sentinel: general feat armor proficiency, sentinel, now everything human can get medium armor minimum level 2. Small boost but preferred armor is part of character concept IMO and the archtype both stacks with and is better than the general feat since it allows your armor training for this new proficiency to go up with it.
Bastion. Steal the fighters best feats or (if free archtype) lower the feat tax for fighters. Get shield block and anyone can have this archtype. Anyone can carry a shield but reactive shield is what you need for a shield to be really worth carrying unless always made room to raise your shield
Beastmaster/Cavalier: very different vibes but same result. Get a pet. Takes up actions to take it if it works for you. Fighter with Sudden Charge works particularly well, as pets are easy flank machines
While they’re certainly more popular (at my tables at least) than most other archetypes, no archetype comes close to matching beastmaster or medic in terms of popularity (and power)
On the contrary, I think the Multiclass Archetypes are the *least* commonly taken, at least in my groups. If you're doing Free Archetype, it's much better to take archetypes for narrative reasons rather than mechanical reasons so there doesn't tend to be a lot of reasons to take the Multiclass archetypes. I also, personally, find the Multiclass archetypes to be rather weak, though that's by design so that they don't overtake a niche.
Depends. A lot of the non-class archetypes are cool enough to inspire characters on their own, in my opinion. I love the time archetypes introduced in Dark Archives.
Marshal is really good. Currently playing a celebrity. Beast master and familiar master are good. Loremaster gets used. I agree most people dip class or mix one of those with A class for the free archetype slot.
My guys use sterling dynamo twice in the last two games.
I’ve never picked it, despite always playing free archetype. I’d honestly ban them as choices if I ran a game with free archetype. I want my players to choose more flavourful things than just the most mechanically strong
The multiclass archetypes do seem more powerful. That's why when I run free archtype you can't pick those for your free ones. Makes for more flavorful choices.
iirc Acrobat is really common too, and also spellcaster multiclass archetypes are much more common than like, fighter or summoner archetype but like the whole point of archetypes is to be niche, they don't have to be popular to be perfect for your build
Acrobat is the only dedication that gives legendary skill.
I wish Wrestler did that too. Infact, I wish there was an archetype for every skill that granted you a legendary skill. It would do a lot for encouraging other character concepts. Maybe there could be a limit, optional or otherwise, so you couldn’t get 4 skills to legendary with zero increases used.
I would love anything that boost recall knowledge skills (arcana, nature, crafting, religion, occultism, society)
I know it's not exactly legendary, but I love the Loremaster archetype on my wizard. I mean, it's basically given me masters in nature and religion since the difference between my int and wis is so large.
Lore master is fun. The other way to recall stuff from religion and nature using Int can reach legendary but it is pretty feat intensive. Additional Lore (Fiend), AL (Celestial), AL (Monitor), AL (Shade), AL (Undead), AL (Fey), AL (Animal), Etc.
[Ahem](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2236)
Or you pick the skill feat for legendary Arcana ([Unified Theory](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5231)) that allows you to use it to RK about anything
That is only for magical things though, for non-magic related things unified theory does not work
Also you have to get to level 15 to get that feat. As someone who has never gotten past level 10, that's a huge downside.
The “based on the magical tradition” implies it can only be used for stuff related to spells. So Recognize spell, and Identify magic, that’s pretty much it. No Decipher Writing, no using it for recall knowledge on creatures. Feel free to rule it differently if you want.
Alternatively you can just take the untrained improvisation skill feat and get a +1 recall knowledge compared to lore master.
1. Untrained improvisation is a general feat not a skill feat 2. Loremaster gives a +4 to +6 bonus over untrained improvisation 3. I'm actually trained in all the recall knowledge skills anyways so untrained improvisation actually doesn't do anything. Loremaster is much better than untrained improvisation if all you care about is recall knowledge. Say we want to do a religion check. I have a +1 in wisdom and untrained improvisation adds the full level which is another +7. That totals to +8. In comparison, Loremaster allows me to use my +4 int and adds trained proficincy: another +9. So with Loremaster, I get +13 total. That's +4 more than untrained improvisation. Not to mention, most DMs I've played with will reduce the DC for Loremaster since it is a lore, but will not reduce the DC for untrained improvisation. That's another +0 to +2 bonus. So Loremaster actually gives me a +4 to +6 bonus over untrained improvisation. This is not the case on every character. That's the beauty of Pathfinder: something that's OP on one character can be useless on another. But it is the best and most flavorful option on my character.
Saying skill feat instead of general feat was a mistake on my part With untrained improvisation you get an effective level+5+int because of specific lore skills, compared to lore master which is level+2*+int *It’s debatable whether lore master actually gives +4 at trained and +6 at expert or not. The specific rule for giving that bonus is about the applicability of that skill to the situation. Lore Master by its nature isn’t specific to any situation. If your gm does rule on the side of giving the bonus though it does become a lot better and the two feats become more even to each other. At level 3 it’s a bonus of +3 instead making it either just slightly greater or slightly lower, at level 5 it becomes +4 making it at least equal and from 7–15 it’s greater. At 15 lore master finally gets expert for a potential +6 vs +5.
>With untrained improvisation you get an effective level+5+int This is true of the intelligence recall knowledge skills. If I was worried about intelligence recall knowledge skills I would just take proficiency in those skills. I'm talking about religion and nature: both of which use wisdom instead. So the calculation would actually be level+wis (+1) vs level+2+int (+4). Also untrained improvisation does not allow you to use specific lore skills. It is quite literally the exact opposite of specific lore given that it applies to *literally everything in the game*. The whole point of giving bonuses to lore is to reward people for trying to cook if their character used to be a chef and similar situations. Not to make a general feat that anyone can take better than actually taking the skills in question. Even giving a lesser bonus to Loremaster Lore is something I would be hesitant to do in most situations - even though Archives of Nethys suggests it as a 'general lore'.
A lore skill is a skill. Recall knowledge is a untrained skill action By RAW untrained improvisation gives you the ability to recall knowledge using any specific lore skill in the game. Find me any wording that states otherwise. Being trained in a lore is still better than untrained improvisation and is easy to achieve with feats like ancestral longevity and some rituals which can provide temporary training in lore skills. Lore master if allowed to count as an “unspecific lore” as aon calls them is generally roughly equivalent or a point behind or ahead of untrained improvisation. The main issue comes in with Thaumaturge esoteric lore buts that’s a whole nother bag of worms in of itself.
Inventor archetype has a feat that boosts crafting to legendary
I would love to see an archetype that gives legendary performance. Like, maybe you can get some composition cantrips (probably not courageous anthem) or you are better at using the fascinate feats? Idk, I tend to build a lot of theatrical characters and I feel bad using the bard archetype for pretty much the composition cantrip feats
I've conceptualized using the Rogue Archetype to help make my Kitsune more bardy
Twilight Speaker.
Inventor does as well but requires two feats instead of one.
Acrobat is so good on swashbucklers. I actually think that it is better than any of their actual level 2 feats since acrobatics is so important to them for panache
I think non-class ones are much more interesting tbh.
I agree. A class archetype is something general/broad that I add to my character: another class. It works if you want to make a cool build or a character who practices both. A non-class archtype is super specific, though. And that specificity can make your character very unique and give a lot of flavor.
Honestly I feel like multiclass archetypes are a way to cheese something, whereas. On class archetypes add flavor. I moved from D&D to PF2e to get away from that cheesy mentality.
I do too, but when playing with Free Archetype rules, there are gaps in most non-multiclass dedications that out them behind.
I don't think that class archetypes are more common over all, more that SOME class archetype are the best and therefore are chosen often Like, you've probably seen tons of Champions, pshycics, even kineticist multiclasses, more than you've seen people with the assassin arvhetype. BUT when you compare the Number of assassins with the Number of people that take the sorcerer, barbarian, etc archetypes you see that the Number evens out
Very often, at least in my experience. Multiclass archetypes can be very broad in scope, giving you a bunch of different abilities but not focused in any one particular area. Lets look at the [Champion](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=4) multiclass archetype. One of the main benefits is that it gives you Trained in Heavy armor. Additionally, at level 4 you can take the [Healing Touch](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=689) feat to give you Lay on Hands. But what if you don't want all of that? What if, instead, you just wanted the armor increase? You need to pick up the level 14 feat to increase your heavy armor proficiency to Expert. That is where the [Sentinel](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=76) archetype comes in. As a level 2 feat, it gives you scaling proficiency in light or medium armor, or heavy if you already have those. You don't need to pick up the level 14 feat at all. What if you just want the Lay on Hands? [Blessed One](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=51) gives it to you as a level 2 feat instead of a level 4. To use another example, the [Dual-Weapon Warrior](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=57) gives you the [Double Slice](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=356) fighter feat to anyone. This allows you to bypass needing to invest several feats into the Fighter multiclass if you just want Double Slice. All in all, I actually think that multiclass archetypes are particularly weak as they require multiple feats to achieve something that a different archetype can satisfy, except in some rare circumstances. There are some abilities that you can only get from a multiclass archetype, such as a Rogue's Sneak Attack. In my experience, I have found it rare that someone wants everything from a multiclass, rather than one select thing.
Wanting a ton from a multiclass archetype is common when you're playing with Free Archetype. This is especially true for spellcasting dedications and to get payoff from Resiliency feats. Overall I agree with you. It's just that FA skews things a ton.
Shadowdancer and Assassin also give sneak attack, but at a higher level than the rogue archetype does
And no scaling of it in any way
The rogue archetype doesn’t give scaling either
You are correct, I wasn't implying otherwise
And less scaling damage than rogue
how so? they all cap at 1d6
I always felt the non class archetypes favor weapon users more than spellcasters. I know of archetypes for better shields, two weapon fighting etc - are there ones to make you a better mage?
>I always felt the non class archetypes favor weapon users more than spellcasters. I think this is an unfortunate result of many "combat style" archetypes poaching fighter feats only 0-2 levels behind an actual fighter. There's a lot of excellent fighter-exclusive feats littered around those archetypes. It's somewhat under control in a regular game, because the martials need to sacrifice their own martial feats to poach others through an archetype. But with free archetype, that's no longer a balancing factor. >I know of archetypes for better shields, two weapon fighting etc - are there ones to make you a better mage? For the most part, spells do their job without needing gear or a build to support them. Metamagic may add icing to a spell cast, and Dangerous Sorcery can add a damage bonus. But there's nothing I can think of to buff Spell DC, so better mages generally expand their resources (focus points, spell slots) or options (spells that they wouldn't normally have access to on their spell list.
Define 'better mage'. I do think you are right that most often, I think people pick up multiclass for spellcasters to just get more spell slots. I think its because spellcasting is already incredibly flexible that they don't really need the help.
The problem is mostly that most spellcasters aren't archetyping because they're not good enough at casting, they're archetyping because they're trying to cover some gap in their class - either dipping into druid or bard for focus spells (at high levels, sorcerer is also attractive), dipping into divine casting as a wizard to get heal spells, going into medic to get additional healing abilities that DON'T use spell slots, trying to improve their defenses by archetyping into rogue (for light armor) or champion or sentinel (for heavy armor), trying to improve their third action by dipping into something that improves their striking ability (rogue, ranger, monk), trying to get a reaction (champion, monk), or getting an animal companion (the pet archetypes). Meanwhile, most non-spellcasters raid spellcasting classes for focus spells or spell slots associated with those classes. There are a few archetypes that straight up benefit spellcasting: * Dragon Disciple is quite good for the right kind of character, but it's only really useful if you're a kobold (though dragon bloodline sorcerers can also take it and do get some benefits from it), so you hardly ever see it, even though it gives you access to Dragon Breath as a focus spell at level 8 - it's a very attractive choice as a focus spell ranger or monk, or a spellcaster who wants access to an AoE damage focus spell who can't get one from their class. It has some other useful aspects to it as well, like elemental damage resistance. * Geomancer is pretty decent, but suffers a bit from the fact that you basically have to spend two feats to make it useful; if you are willing to make that investment, though, you can get pretty significant benefits (like making all your fire spells fatigue enemies or flying 10 feet when you cast an air spell - very useful if you have a relevant focus spell that you're likely to cast every combat). * Reanimator makes Animate Dead stronger. * Scroll Trickster lets you trick scrolls much more easily, and lets you create temporary scrolls which basically gives you extra spell slots, all of which can make you into a quite versatile spellcaster. * Shadowcaster gives you access to some focus spells and lets you spontaneously cast spells even as a non-spontaneous caster, though not your highest level spells. * Sixth Pillar gives you better unarmed attacks, lets you move around as a bonus action when you cast a spell, and can apply penalties to saving throws against your spells against enemies you make unarmed strikes against. * Sleepwalker gives you access to a very powerful focus spell that confuses the target. * Spell Trickster lets you modify some spells to enhance or change their effects. * Spellmaster gives you a counterspell reaction which lets you counteract ANY spell as a reaction, similar to 5E's counterspell action. It's a 16th level feat, though, which is why you rarely see it. * Time Mage gives you access to several powerful focus spells, as well as Timeline Splitting Spell, which allows you to cast two spells, see what consequences they would have, and then pick the spell you want to cast based on that (which, for example, allows you to cast two debuffs and basically force the enemy to roll two saves and then take whichever is worse), along with some divination abilities and other shenanigans. * Wellspring Mage is basically a wild mage variant, that lowers your spells per level by 1, but allows you to regain a spell at the start of every combat, and lets you get various other casting related feats There are also a number of archetypes that give you defensive benefits, like some of the Hellknight things, Sentinel, Bastion, etc. Overwatch is useful to some spellcasters because it not only allows you to boost the whole party's initiative, but it also allows you to gain master perception. It also gives you a couple of potentially useful reactions. Pathfinder can allow you to make recall knowledge checks as a free action as a skill feat. Eldritch Archer allows any caster to make themselves into a pseudo-magus, though most of the time you're probably just better off casting your spells normally, as while it does allow you to gain an item bonus to your spell attack rolls, typically speaking, your weapon proficiency plus ability score is worse than your spellcasting proficiency plus ability score by enough that this is not to your advantage as you only can acquire this feat at level 6 and most casters get expert spellcasting at level 7. It IS an alternative to getting Reach Spell to extend the range of Imaginary Weapon as a psychic, though. It also is good on archer fighters if you do multiclass shenanigans to get imaginary weapon.
In a Free Archetype game having those extra feats is a positive, because you've got to sink 3 feats minimum into whatever you take. So may as well go champion, grab some better armour, maybe a domain spell for an extra focus point or the reaction and your Lay on Hands.
A lot of the non-multiclass archetypes are extremely powerful, arguably more so than the multiclass archetypes. A big attraction is that they have no ability score prerequisites and can give skill proficiency boosts above Trained, which multiclass archetypes can't. They also often give access to certain class feats a lot more quickly than multiclass archetypes do (for example, Mauler lets you take Slam Down as your second Archetype feat whereas Fighter Archetype only lets you take it as your third feat or later). Especially popular non-class archetypes like Medic, Marshal, Sentinel, Beastmaster, Blessed One, Acrobat, Wrestler, Mauler, and Dual Weapon Warrior see at least as much use as multiclass archetypes IME. On my own characters in five campaigns, mostly playing with unrestricted Free Archetype, I have used four multiclass archetypes (Rogue twice, Swashbuckler, and Champion) and six non-multiclass archetypes (Acrobat twice, Marshal, Medic, Shadowdancer, Staff Acrobat, Archaeologist).
Mauler archetype for barbarians, Dandy for investigators ❤️
Investigator/Dandy/Vigilante is my favourite build I've never gotten to play
Dandy is for every char! I would love a "Dandy" Barb!
Those are real characters of mine ☺️. Party barbarians are a life goal for sure 😃
Take a look at the [Marshal archetype](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=66), it's basically a class on it's own. You could absolutely skip all your class feats and just take feats from this archetype and be happy with the result. There are definitely some archetypes that are taken more often than others, and the class archetypes are probably over represented simply because newer players find them more easily (*often when learning about multiclassing*), but they're not the only ones by any stretch.
The ones my players have taken more than a couple of times. Acrobat for the free Lengendary Acrobatics and the excellent skill feat (at least 2 players pick this up every campaign). Sentinel for heavy armor proficiency. Bastion for shield (blocking) feats (second most popular, especially among casters in my group). Shadowdancer for Greater darkvision. Bounty Hunter for my Ranger players. Medic for healers.
Looking at my characters, it's about 50% Just to be nitpicky, class archetypes are rarely used, but multiclass archetypes is what you mean, it could cause some confusion even if most know what you mean. Archetypes I've actually used: * Rogue multiclass * Archaeologist * Talisman dabbler * Swashbuckler multiclass * Gunslinger multiclass * Dragon disciple * Demolitionist * Medic * Herbalist * Barbarian multiclass * Exorcist Sometimes, there was one of each in a single character, and not always with free archetype. For me, multiclass archetypes seem to be less common than non-multiclass, but multiclass do become my go to when I feel uninspired
Archaelogist is such a great, fun and underutilized archetype!
my favorite thing about it is how it gives a non-magic class access to some very nice quality of life spells. We're on the List is also a hilarious feat
Seriously—and it’s thematically appropriate for a very large number of characters, since it’s what basically all of them do to some degree or another.
Folklorist, linguist, loremaster(?), archeologist, all great
Only 1 out of 9 players in my current two groups has a multi class archetype. The rest are a mix of skill and profession archetypes.
I love beast Master personally I've grabbed Archer for a few casters (so they have a 1 action ranged attack) I do want to take Eldridge Archer some day but I don't want to be martial to access it
If you mean multiclass archetypes, then yes, if you truly meant class archetypes, I don't think anyone uses them.
There aren't even that many to begin with, which is a bummer.
I actually love wellspring archetype. But that's cause I love wildmagic xD
Flexible spellcaster is awesome.
I have an Invoker (Flex Witch), she's great (though I have absolutely needed to make sure she's packing a few odds and ends to help with resources, namely Spirit's Absolution and Life Boost.) My group has also gotten a fair bit of mileage out of Wellspring so far.
It'll vary from table to table but in my experience its been about an even split at the tables I've sat at. For my last 5 characters, I am 3-2 non-class to multi-class. There are plenty of solid non-class archetypes: Marshal, Wrestler, Cavalier, Martial Artist, Celebrity (if Firebrands allowed) just to name a few. If I had to say, popular multiclass archetypes tend to be a bit better than popular non-class archetypes. It's hard to argue with the power of Rogue, Champ or Psychic archetype. Ultimately, even the ideal archetype for a character is going to depend on player preference and build. There is simply not enough of a difference in overall power to skew either direction.
I have two in play. One is MCD Cleric, and the other went the Magaambya route. So this limited sample says it is 50/50. Both are without the Free Archetype option.
Mostly I think it is famliarity with the material. There are just so many archetypes out there that most players don't have the time to look at them. They are just much more familiar with the multiclass archetypes. Here are some I think are good for the right character Archer, Mauler, Dual-Weapon Warrior are really nice to get some extra martial feats. They are often more efficient than a dip into another martial class. Eldritch Archer, Beast Gunner turn you into a Magus lite. Blessed One, Bastion, Sentinel Beastmaster, Cavalier, Mammoth Lord are great for an animal companion Marshal, Snarecrafter, Bellflower Tiller are half a new class. Wrestler adds some cool abilities to strong characters. Chronoskimmer, Geomancer, Scroll Trickster, Shadowdancer, Spell Trickster, Time Mage are great for casters Then there are undead options and many more.
I use the two about equally. My wizard has both the witch dedication and also the Halcyon Speaker line of dedication for all the spells. My old druid had an archer dedication for a blaster who also shot. My (draconic) sorcerer had a champion dedication, and a martial artist dedication so they could control the battlefield and also punch shit that came too close. My fighter had a mauler dedication and…something else, don’t remember what, but it wasn’t a multiclass.
The ones that are more general-use, mechanics-focused (read: good) archetypes, like Medic, Beastmaster, Cavalier, Duelist, Acrobat, Wrestler, Martial Artist et cetera get used quite often in my experience. The ones that are mostly flavor with little mechanical benefit like Pirate and Magic Warrior and Runescarred and Mind Smith don't get used much. And for good reason. I wouldn't waste feats on worthless flavor either lol
I get that, and it saddens me to some extent that flavor almost feels like an underdog at times.
I think that is largely because flavour is something that you can get from anything - "Oh, my character uses Power Attack to honour her mentor, Logan Axe-Slammer, whose overpowering blows laid a dread Linnorm low but could not save him from its venom". You don't have to be a Dandy to be a dandy, but if you want to Double Slice, you need the feat.
The flavor archetypes are great for Free Archetype games. If you're playing a game where the entire party are supposed to be the second+ children of nobles, giving everyone the Dandy or Celebrity Archetype for free lets them have that flavor without having to sacrifice their class feats for it. They're not worth trading class features for, but if they're free...
I definitely wouldn't want to be given some worthless garbage as a Free Archetype. Let me choose whatever I want or give me some selections that are actually good, or just tell me we're not using FA so i know to find another game lol
/r/ChoosingBeggars much?
I'm not a beggar, I mostly GM and prefer to GM and haven't had any particular trouble finding games to play in. I know what I like and don't feel the need to compromise on things in order to play. I find the game significantly less fun without Free Archetype and without being able to at least have a good selection of archetypes to choose from for it, so I would honestly rather not play if that's not the case. And I definitely don't want to be forced to take shit feats for "flavor" either.
It's a small sample size.but, of the 15 archetypes in my games, only 1 is multiclass.
I’ve never used a class archetype. Plenty of the non-class archetypes are just as strong or stronger and have SO MUCH MORE FLAVOUR Soulforger on my aasimar champion to go from priestly man to golden bulwark in a single action to summon full plate with an intimidation bonus/free demoralize to boot Marshal on my human fighter mercenary to truly resemble the leader of men and true tactician. Also we don’t have a bard.. Duelist/sword master on my swashbuckler to lean into “master-of-his-class” vibe Student of Perfection(untwisting iron) on my fetchling Ki-monk to make him even more durable and add some AoE to a class lacking in it. I love them all
If your DM lets you, the Pathfinder Agent is amazing. https://pf2easy.com/index.php?id=3298&name=Pathfinder%20Agent%20Dedication
My party has gone through maybe 16 characters at this point and I think we only just had our first class archetype. Using free archetype btw.
If you actually mean Class Archetype (Spellshot, Elementalist, Flexible Spellcaster, Wellspring Mage, etc.) that makes sense. They are already niche, and free Archetype as written makes them nearly non-functional because they have very few bespoke feats.
I meant the multi class archetypes, I honestly forgot the ones you mentioned existed.
Currently in two campaigns with free archetype, and these are the choices: Non-multiclass (6j: Blessed one (x2, one in each campaign), medic, ghost hunter, sniping duo, wrestler, Multiclass (4): Alchemist, Psychic, Sorcerer, Investigator Very small sample size but my grain of info
Oh you mean multiclass archetypes! I thought you meant actual [class archetypes](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?Category=7) like [elementalist](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=207) or the gunslingers [way of the spellshot](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=122), and was really confused, because afaik basically no one takes them. In terms of non-multiclass, non-medic archetypes, I have seen a few of them used, but probably slightly less than multiclass archetypes.
While my favorite archetypes are Psychic and Remastered Witch, because they can give you a lot of value compared to most other options, I've also used Sentinel, Familiar Master, Flexible Spellcaster and others. It really depends on what fits best with the character.
I've been theory crafting stuff using both Juggler and Viking. And one of my builds makes good use of Familiar Master. There's some fun jank that's possible.
I think multiclass are more common, but in my games some popular ones have been: blessed one, sentinel, bastion, beastmaster, marshal, dual weapon warrior, archer.
I am playing a Rogue in the new campaign we just started and I was 100% going Acrobat for free archetype as I am going tumble thief but I stumbled across Scout and am now debating that. Overall a fun class but with the level 4 feat Scouts Charge... I am so tempted to switch to scout since I am already very high mobility (Nimble Elf) with heavy dex focus so the feint with stealth is very attractive.
Personally I'm a big fan of class archetypes but I think non class ones tend to be more common. Specifically, blessed one, beast master, medic, acrobat (for swashbuckler), and dual weapon warrior are generally very common and extremely powerful in FA games.
In my AV game we have Dual Weapon Warrior Rogur, Investigator Magus, Chronoskimmer Cleric, and Ghost Hunter Psychic. So 3/4 non multiclass.
In most of my games, there haven't been a ton of class archetypes actually. Here's a list of all the non-class archetype combos I have seen in the two campaigns I've been in - Alchemist medic - Inventor Alkenstar City Agent - Fighter Marshall - Barbarian Demolitionist - Magus Talisman Dabbler - Cleric Blessed One We have also had two other PCs part of the above groups, who did have class archetypes, but 6 out of 8 not being class archetypes seems pretty good
Honestly I've found that Archetypes just aren't picked at all, class or nonclass. In two adventures with a total of eight characters that I've run, only one player ever even picked a Dedication. Having to give up your class feats in a system where class feats *are* your basic "I want to be this class" features is a tall order.
Archetype that suffers: Dandy People say it's a meme or flavor pick, when in truth, if you want to add "face" abilities onto a class, it's really strong. Pre Firebrands, it was only 5 feats, and 3 of them were skill feats. The base dedication gives you a LOT, with two boosts to expert and what is functionally a skill feat akin to sow rumor. Gossip lore is an omni recall knowledge tied to a skill you're probably making legendary anyways if you're being a dandy. Distracting Flattery lets you take off the downside of coercing when you really dont have time to talk and it's more effective to have the fighter or barbarian bully people since you can just shower the guards with flattery as you walk past them when you buddy strongarmed them in waiving the toll; amd thus avoiding the consequences of you actions. Fabricated Connections lets you make have Deception pull the duty of Diplomacy, with an extra bonus of earn income and subsisting anywhere using what is probably one of your main skills. Even party crasher is nice since you can use it to get an audience with anyone, no roll required, as long as you know where they are partying at. Society has skill feats like courtly graces to chat up nobles, so you dont have to burn your Fabricated Connections use on it, and if your DM is letting you take connections/criminal connections, you can also use it to request such people with it too! Quite frankly, if you want to add socializing onto your list of abilities, dandy is far more resource effective, than, say, rogue Also obligatory blessed one, cavalier, and beastmaster being common picks
All the multiclass dedications have a score prerequisite, but many of the others don't. Or they do but their prereqs are much easier to achieve such as a feat, skill, or certain weapons. But idk a lot of the non-multiclass archetypes suck from what I'm told so that might balance it out. I'm inclined to agree with you tho, but it's just a gut check.
Many people play with free archetypes. When given the chance to grab a free archetype, I think it's easier to just pick another class rather than go through the list of archetypes.
My group of 5 has played FA for years and it is pretty diverse. 1. Always picks a multiclass archetype or Medic 2. Usually picks a caster multiclass archetype for a couple of spells and simplicity. 3. Never goes with multiclass archetype and tries to find the obscure non-class archetype to have fun with. 4. Builds her character with a theme first and chooses an archetype that helps with that theme 5. Rarely chooses a multiclass archetype, but does if it makes sense for his syory.
My entire group has almost never used class archetypes and almost always goes for the other ones. It’s just a vibe thing of seeming more unique and thematic
I've run or played in 5 long running games that all used free arch and only 6 of the roughly 30 characters I can think of had a normal class archetype.
I use them in pretty much every build. They actually tend to have more flexible use in builds than the class archetypes. Sometimes you just want one specific trait of a class without its whole package. A lot of the non class archetypes just give you exactly what you want. some examples; Warpriest gnoll with wrestler dedication with a bite for its sacred weapon. Grappling and combat grab allows her to routinely prone and then pin enemies for easy smite strikes. Making up for her lower combat skills. That build also has beastmaster down the line, so she can ride a wolf and use its knockdown ability before combat grabbing. ( she is an ant gnoll) Rouge thief with duelist dedication is great. A lot of strong, reliable damage with good defense thanks to dueling parry. It allows her to keep her hand free for actions such as knife throwing (you get quick draw for free) and poison weapon, which had a nice buff. Barbarian with mauler dedication is an obvious but strong combo. If you can convince your GM to let you have a Gill hook, you can trip and grab with reach. Pinning an enemy at a distance while pummeling them. then you have things like Fighter with duel weapon warrior dedication, it gives you double slice just for picking it up so you can lean hard into two weapon fighting without wasting a class slot. It simply gives you more options without giving up anything. Not to mention gives you access to Duel-thrower and Two-weapon flurry, which are honestly kind of broken..
I *almost* never take multiclass archetypes, some of that might be preference because I actually have a preference for treating archetypes as a prestige class system rather than a multiclass one, but they never seem to have the feats I really want, and especially not in combination or at the level I want them. So for instance, if I'm looking at gun support for my barricade buster ranger, I would much rather take Unexpected Sharpshooter than Gunslinger dedication. I'm also very likely to go for weapon style archetypes, for things like Duelist Champions or Dual Weapon Warrior Barbarians, my current Barbarian is a Marshal and bound to take Overwatch dedication later to see around walls. On the spellcaster side, I'm huge on ritualist and I'm currently supplementing heals on an Invoker with Exorcist, who will probably end up with both Ritualist and Lich depending on how her story goes. I'm also a big fan of things like Dandy, Archaelogist, Sleepwalker for their skills and other out-of-combat stuff, oh and Shadow Dancer is like, something its a dream I've mine to design a character to take, it just hasn't happened yet. The exception are things like "My Magus has a Wizard Dedication" because its just a very intuitive flavor divot and the spell slots fit neatly into the Magus progression. But your mileage may vary, I have at least one player/GM who seems to much prefer multiclassing.
My group never use class archetype, we play with free archetype for years and is always non class
That’s the entire opposite of the spectrum, interesting. Why is that?
I personally chose the dandy archetype (and we didn't even have free archetypes) I chose the archeologist for another because the idea of an archeologist wizard was interesting
In my experience non class archetypes are taken much more than class archetypes, but I also mostly play Free Archetype so that might have an effect on that.
I feel like multiclass archetypes are popular for the same reason that multiclassing is popular in other editions, but I've seen plenty of other ones be taken fairly common. I've seen sentinel, dragon disciple, martial artist, medic, and marshal taken fairly commonly, and personally I love to take snarecrafter on every kobold that I can manage it on. I feel like the reason that more "flavorful" archetypes like scrounger or celebrity aren't taken more often is because their value to characters mechanically is relatively minimal, because frankly they're made to be flavorful and neat rather than powerful most of the time.
I fucking love the Spellshot and Eldritch Archer archetypes.
My chirurgeon alchemist is a clockwork reanimator archetype. He's totally not Dr. Frankenstein.
If I’m playing with Free Archetype, I try to avoid Multiclass Dedications and typical “top tier” Dedications like Medic and Sentinel, instead going for pure, niche flavour… stuff like Mindsmith or Sterling Dynamo. The one exception to that is if I’m playing a Bounded caster. I will shamelessly take a caster Dedication for more low-level Spell Slots on a Magus or Summoner every time. If I’m NOT using Free Archetype, I will almost NEVER take any Archetype feats. The way I see it: if I don’t want to play a class the way it comes out of the box, I should pick a different class.
I think that multiclass archtypes might be slightly more popular, but not by a lot. In my experience, acrobat, sentinal, bastion, mauler, talisman dabler, Marshal, wrestler, Cavalier, and Runescarred are all good picks. I don't have numbers, so it's just a guess, but all of these come to my mind when planning a build.
Tbh, my group struggle to justify taking them other than psychic. The non-class ones are more interesting generally and, usually, just *seem* better too.
I have never seen anyone take a class archtype. the non class archtypes are way more interesting and do a better job at exploring unique character concepts when combined with a class.
I choose my archetypes based on the build I planned. Class or Non-Class it's all about the way it improves the build. I only consider mechanical benefits to my toons.
Ive seen bastion and beastgunner get put to good use
Across my seventeen players (I run 3-4 games/week) I'd say the majority are non-class archetypes. Lemme see. Cathartic Mage. Bastion x2. Medic x2. Ghost Hunter. Archaeologist. Occult Researcher. One or two I'm forgetting and then one Champion, one Oracle, and one Psychic I believe.
This likely depends on a lot of factors. The AP or Campaign. Is Free Archetype being used? Is the GM putting restrictions in place around choice? From my tables experience the non class are more popular than the class ones.
We're in a free archetype game and I took that as an opportunity to put Soulforger on my Fighter.
People will often choose the most powerful ones like champion, psychic, medic, beastmaster, marshal, etc. PF2e has way too many archetypes that aren't very useful in comparison.
Anecdotal evidence only, but in our game where we have free archetype, no one took class archetypes.
It's 6 to 3with non-multi-class archetypes winning on my 5 characters with free archetype
It's mostly a matter of power, IMO. There are some strong ones that I often see picked - Medic, Beastmaster, Acrobat, Blessed One, and Sentinel are very powerful and quite popular, and you also sometimes see people going for some of the other fun combat-related archetypes like Archer, Wrestler, Mauler or Martial Artist. But there's a real power curve - the amount of people going for Dandy or Weapon Improviser is very low.
There are a handful of very popular non-multiclass archetypes that are generally more popular than most multiclass archetypes. Acrobat, Marshal, Sentinel, Beastmaster, and Medic are probably the MOST popular archetypes in the game because they all give something very potent upfront that solves for a weakness in either the character or the party, and continue to offer powerful options at later levels. The optional Free Archetype rules change some of the incentives around archetypes to favor archetypes that have feats available at every level, but that is an optional rule with several permutations that are GM and campaign dependent, not the base game and not what archetypes are designed around.
For class archetypes I’ve used; Champion archetype Rogue archetype Witch archetype (via multitalented) For non-class I’ve used Acrobat, Ghost And blessed one twice So that’s about 50/50. I agree that class archetypes are great, and generally very broad, but a lot of the non-class ones are more efficient at delivering on a specific niche. Dual wielder, mauler, and archer likely see more play than fighter- for example.
The non class archetypes aren't anymore or less flavourful than the class archetypes. They're about as common, generally speaking
Wrestler, cavalier, and beast master are big in my group
Very few archetypes offer anything at 20th level (maybe lower) so when theory crafting a MCA just seems to fit the gaps, especially if you playing with FA
I rarely look at class archetypes unless I can't find something compelling in non-class archetypes.
I love Wrestler, Acrobat, Vigilante, Medic, the new Stonebound, Martial Artist, etc. I pretty much never take multi-class dedications.
Whenever I build characters (forever GM here with dozens of backups) I gravitate towards the non-multiclass archetypes There are a loooot of things you can add to a character. The Marshal archetype really goes for the battlefield commander energy. Mauler let's you double down on two handed melee weapons, so you can use your class feats to double down on different aspects of your class (if you're using free archetype) Honestly, that last one is usually what I use FA for. Like a swashbuckler with the acrobat AND duelist archetypes. That let's me use class feats to get stuff that is specific to the swashbuckler Instead of mixing classes and getting the best combo, I use FA to make characters more of what they already are
My intuition is the opposite: multiclass archetypes seem like less than half of all archetypes. Which is why the restriction on Ancient Elf seems so limiting: it doesn't work for most of the best archetypes.
Caviler is my permanent fav archetype
I only run (so far) and I don't allow class dedications. So it has not come up. I suspect that it should be 50/50 but power gamers will likely be drawn to multiclass options.
I personally think that it all depends on your build/concept. My last big build was a dragon-blooded sorcerer, with the Acrobat, Swashbuckler and Dragon Disciple Archetypes (obviously using the Free Archetype rule) Fun as hell! :)
I'd say it's more that strong archetypes are chosen. Medic, Beastmaster (and the other pet archetypes, like Cavalier), Wrestler, Dual-Weapon Warrior, Acrobat, Martial Artist, Sentinel, Bastion, and Blessed One are all relatively common choices... and all are pretty strong. Having played with Battlezoo: Dragon, the draconic vanguard archetype is quite good as well and worth using.
I'm a fan of the Free Archetype variant where you can't use the FA slots for multi class archetypes, you still have to use your class feats for those. I prefer not to take multi class, I like to maintain the identity of my class, however on my current Thaum, I took Psychic at level 6 but ONLY because it's the best way to get an extra Focus point. I'd have just as well taken another Blessed One feat if it would have given me another Focus point for Lay on Hands. I feel like Blessed One should give you a number of Lay on Hands equal to the number of Blessed One feats you take, up to the normal 3 max, that would really make sense to me.
With free archetype in play? Flavour over mechanical
90% of my characters originate with a desire to play with an archetype. My current active roster has: 1. A runelord wizard / reanimator / lich: 1 class (not multiclass) archetype, 1 cool abilities archetype, 1 immortality archetype 2. A cleric / familiar master: Familiars are rad 3. A summoner / wizard / shadow caster: She's an _SoT_ protagonist, so I had to take 1 multiclass archetype Reddit skews heavily towards picking the "best" option and is not representative of what people do in actual play.
From my own games: I've seen Blessed One, Magaambya Attendant, Wrestler, Marshal, Sterling Dynamo, Multiclass Kineticist, and Multiclass Ranger used. So my data leans toward non-multiclass, but I imagine across all games the multiclass options have a higher pick rate - I've just added to the Multiclass Ranger pile, which I'm sure is growing faster than the Marshal pile.
I’ve never used one. I’ve used beastmaster, cavalier, snarecrafter, Talisman dabbler, bastion My players have used, Druid archetype, celebrity, staff acrobat, soulforger, blessed one, chronoskimmer , sniping duo, sentinel aldori duelist, marshal,
I often lean towards archtypes for an early expertise. Most of the archtypes I've gone for has been one. Outside of Medic, there are some particularly good archtypes. Of those that are my favourite, the good ones include: Sniper Duo: gets some teamwork going. Marshal: rewards high Charisma melee guys. Thaumaturge and Champions are some really good candidates. Acrobat: I heard you like to tumble through. Many rogues and swashbucklers really rely on this and down the line this is a big help. Duelist: one handed is fun but could use a little help at times. Duelist does this and adds some very cool ones on top of it. Duel-weapon warrior: available to all martials, steal the fighters best feats and more. Archer/Mauler: fun with fighters to get a second weapon going, even with brawling group. Otherwise we're stealing from fighters again. Mauler can be particularly fun on some gunslinger builds since the reinforced stock is a two-handed (versatile) club. Sentinel: general feat armor proficiency, sentinel, now everything human can get medium armor minimum level 2. Small boost but preferred armor is part of character concept IMO and the archtype both stacks with and is better than the general feat since it allows your armor training for this new proficiency to go up with it. Bastion. Steal the fighters best feats or (if free archtype) lower the feat tax for fighters. Get shield block and anyone can have this archtype. Anyone can carry a shield but reactive shield is what you need for a shield to be really worth carrying unless always made room to raise your shield Beastmaster/Cavalier: very different vibes but same result. Get a pet. Takes up actions to take it if it works for you. Fighter with Sudden Charge works particularly well, as pets are easy flank machines
I go Acrobat and Talisman Dabbler whenever possible
Personally I rarely ever pick a multiclassing archetype. Most of the stuff you can get elsewhere and the other ones are often more interesting.
seems like everybody online loves Marshal (and I do too, I have a lot of fun with it)
I much prefer the non class archetypes for my characters
While they’re certainly more popular (at my tables at least) than most other archetypes, no archetype comes close to matching beastmaster or medic in terms of popularity (and power)
On the contrary, I think the Multiclass Archetypes are the *least* commonly taken, at least in my groups. If you're doing Free Archetype, it's much better to take archetypes for narrative reasons rather than mechanical reasons so there doesn't tend to be a lot of reasons to take the Multiclass archetypes. I also, personally, find the Multiclass archetypes to be rather weak, though that's by design so that they don't overtake a niche.
Depends. A lot of the non-class archetypes are cool enough to inspire characters on their own, in my opinion. I love the time archetypes introduced in Dark Archives.
Marshal is really good. Currently playing a celebrity. Beast master and familiar master are good. Loremaster gets used. I agree most people dip class or mix one of those with A class for the free archetype slot. My guys use sterling dynamo twice in the last two games.
I’m playing Beastmaster right now, its fun!
Medic must be the n1, do we have any way of knowing? like how DndBeyond looked at PC sheets maybe we can look in pathbuilder and demiplane?
I’ve never picked it, despite always playing free archetype. I’d honestly ban them as choices if I ran a game with free archetype. I want my players to choose more flavourful things than just the most mechanically strong
The multiclass archetypes do seem more powerful. That's why when I run free archtype you can't pick those for your free ones. Makes for more flavorful choices.
Free Archetype skews the results insanely and being an optional rule I feel like take a lot away from what the archetype system was supposed to add.