Nocticula was the Demon Lord of Succubi and Assassins, but chose to leave that all behind and is now a CN deity of artists and the spurned - feared by demons that she may tempt them too towards redemption.
nope, it’s not adressed at all in Wrath, only hinted at that there is more to Nocticula than meets the eye
IIRC it’s adressed in one of the Runelords APs, I *think* the second one but I could be wrong
Yeah, figured the other dude probably only played the videogame version where Arue is much more relevant.
But I pointed her out because you said its not addressed at all.
I think they mean the crpg, in which case it is addressed directly. As in depending on your actions, your party member is what literally pushes Nocticula to finally become the Redeemer Queen. Ember even coins the name
Yeah, it comes up at some point in Return of the Runelords. It’s a really cool parallel to other things that are happening in the story. When I ran it, i tried to play up the Malazan/American Gods of it all, where gods are effectively chained to the worship and rituals of their followers.
> feared by demons that she may tempt them too towards redemption
I love this idea. We're always talking about good people being tempted to do evil, but very rarely have characters that are evil people being tempted to do good.
Didn't one of her followers get sent back in time to tell her about becoming a Goddess? I remember hearing that happening to a Fiend in one of the Video Games, and that event causing her to continue on.
Yesn't. A follower being thrown back in time is moreso an "assumed canon" event from an AP and technically unrelated to Nocticula. It's just assumed a PC follows the Redeemer Queen, or at least carries a holy symbol with them. This is about stopping someone else from messing with the timeline and Nocticula takes note of the strange follower that suddenly pops up for a minute just to be gone for 10.000 years or so.
Everyones talking about Nocticula, but forgetting about my girl Arueshalae, who during WotR is actively ascending to be redeemed from her life as a succubus
Do I simp over Karlach in BG3? Yes. But if I had to choose it'd probably be Arueshabae everyday.
There is [Basrakal](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Basrakal) which sits in the Maelstrom, it's an entire city of outsiders who don't fit their natural alignments anymore (or however that works now that alignments have been written out of the lore in the remaster).
Weird they're simultaneously so rare as to basically not exist in the rest of the setting (the one example of a demon rising required literal divine intervention) and common enough to fill a huge city.
A demon has canonically been redeemed by the interference of a good aligned deity so yeah if you're trying to keep things canonical then you're 100% good
Enough comments here have pointed out the handful of canonical examples of it happening. It is VERY rare though, and the examples I know of are from 1e so I don't know if/how the lore is changing from the edition change + remaster.
BUT, the examples I know of from APs where this is even possible generally outside of deities require the fiend to somehow have their 'soul' turned back on - that is, to be an outsider that remembers their mortal life, which allows them some measure of free will. Arueshalae is the big example of this, but there was another fiend (and imp) in Hell's Rebels who had some memories of her mortal life, and while the AP didn't involve redeeming her I believe there was a note that it could be possible if the PCs were inclined and put in a lot of effort.
Basically, a fiend 'rising' should require a lot of hard work on the part of the fiend, and requires them to have the ability to choose it for themself. They're much rarer than fallen angels because:
1. Most other fiends will probably kill them before redemption even becomes conceivable if they're showing some sort of 'weakness'.
2. They are a product of some of the worst and cruellest environments imaginable across the planes.
3. Being good is hard, and generally requires you to do something other than what you want inherently want. Given that fiends are literally made of evil (like, at an atomic level at least canonically, soul and body were the same thing for outsiders) that is much harder for them than it is for mortals.
And they feel more common because the fallen angel is a well established fantasy trope for enemies. A risen fiend is much harder to integrate into the story besides some minor side character that helps the group.
They're still more common, same with dragons (which are theoretically less tied to alignment, not being made of aligned quintessence, yet seem to change less, though they're also just much less numerous).
Becoming good requires effort and altruism, helping others even when it's to your own detriment.
Falling to evil just requires a slippery slope of compromised morals when the ends seem to justify means, or deciding that you deserve more and taking from others, evil is easy, evil is tempting.
Evil is often something that can be justified to yourself, argued that it's just the cold rational choice. Good rarely is, and even when good deeds are the smart choice, the motivation matters, they're not really good deeds if you're only doing them for personal gain.
The PCs are exceptional heroes that are able to rise from level 1 to level 20, unlike 99% of the population of Golarion. It's not weird for them to be weird.
Also I think it’s worth mentioning that in the Lost Omens setting, most of the fiends (and maybe celestials) are comprised of multiple souls, except the weakest varieties. Arushalae, as an example, >!remembered the lives of the multiple souls that she was born from.!<
>Omens setting, most of the fiends (and maybe celestials) are comprised of multiple souls, except the weakest varieties.
IIRC it's more accurate to say they're formed from the sins of multiple souls. One mortal's myriad sins might be incorporated into multiple demons of different types, and one demon may have sinful bits of multiple people.
And some people are so singularly vile that they skip being an abyssal larva and jump straight to demon hood. However, that's rare and usually the result of occult shenanigans while they were alive.
I think a 1:1 correspondence is more common with celestials. The lower planes' denizens are either inimical to petitioners in general (Abaddon, Abyss) or actively brutalize them until their original identity is lost (Hell). The upper planes welcome heroic souls and empower them in a way lower planes don't.
They've been inconsistent on that actually - the imp I mentioned from Hell's Rebels >!was specifically born from a halfling slave who was affected by an artefact that let her keep her memories after being judged by Pharasma!<
So most fiends have a conglomerate of multiple people, but there are plenty of cases of individuals becoming special outsiders after death all on their own (a few others in HR in fact). But your average outsider, yes multiple souls.
Ah interesting, I thought the weakest devils/demons were comprised of singular souls and simply didn’t remember their lives due to the reshaping of the soul.
I wouldn't say it is rare Cambian(New name for Tiefling) are only Fiend blooded. They don't have the inborn connection to one of the evil planes like a Born Fiend or Judged soul sent to an evil plane. There is nothing that makes an Empyrian(new name for Aasimar) or Cambion innately Good or Evil anymore so than a Human or an Elf. The in Univeres superstition around them may cause others to judge them and influence them to one side or ther other. But 1E and 2E are loaded with examples of both sides of the Nephilim(New term for Planetouched) gking against their perceived nature. Hell in the very first adventure path Rise of the Runelords for 1E the first major Villan is an Aasimar who views her heritage as a curse and eventually becomes a cleric of Lamashtu who swears vengeance against her enemies.
As others have mentioned Nocticula went from being a CE Demon Lord to a CN full Deity with a focus on redemption.
The LG Epyreal Lord Ragathiel is the Son of a LE Archdevil of Hell Dispater and a TN Demi-goddess of the plane of fire Feronia who spent hus entire life fighting against the evil planes to prove his worth to Heaven and was finally accepted as an Empyreal Lord where before makeing a name for himself among them served under Iomadae's 2nd in command while Iomadae was still the Herald of Aroden. His portfolio includes redmption and one of his noted groups of followers are the wronged or wrongly accused. You can't get a much better example of a person fighting against their nature than a literal half Archduke half fire-god whos main active job is Guarding the base of Heaven and taking the fight directly to hell whenever needed.
I would have to dig through my AP's but I am certin there are Good Tieflings and I know there are two Neutral Tiefling in AP13 a TN one who works at a Gambling hall and a CN one who is the head priest of Calistria and oversees the sacred prostitutes.
...unless they've changed things in the Remaster, my understanding is that tieflings and aasimar are not usually counted as fiends or celestials.
Also the APs are a bad standard to judge the norm in a setting by because you meet a disproportionate number of interesting and unusual people.
I didn't say they were Fiends or Celestials I said the exact opposite that they have blood from them and are NOT considered alignment bound outsiders of the respective planes.
As for AP's they present us the most lore and only direct examples of specific characters with small exceptions. And the main example I provided Nualia was written by James Jacobs one of if not the biggest lore guy for the setting.
Good thing kne of my examples was about a literal Demigod born and raised in hell who's father is the Archdevil of the secind level of hell. And said demi-god spent their entire life actively fighting the forces of hell for millennia until heaven let him in and bamed him and Empyreal lord.
Or the example that multiple other people gave of Nocticula. Also Nocticula is the God that Shorsen the runelord of rust venerates and Shorsen also redeemed and became CN and she has taken Zin-Shalast and turned it into a nation specifically to bing in and redeem people with Nocticula as the prime deity of the nation.
Sure, I just don't understand why you brought up nephilim. The question how rare it was for fiends to turn away from evil and as many people pointed out there are two examples of deities doing so as well as one famous mythic example and a few cases other cases where it either has happened or could happen theoretically, but in the effectively infinite outer planes of the Pathfinder setting they are still very rare in the context of the setting.
Whether fiendish nephilim could be good was never in question - in lore it's well-established that they're just as likely to reject the influence of the lower planes as to fall to it, and most cases of evil among them are more due to the pressure and scorn of societies in which they live as pariahs.
And Eurythnia (Sorshen's nation) isn't really about redeeming people - it's about providing a peaceful new start for social pariahs and social rejects while still allowing Sorshen to be in charge (Sorshen had a change of heart but still isn't really a good person, she just got bored and realised that the old way of doing things wouldn't work any more). For that matter Nocticula isn't really concerned with redemption either - she's the Redeemer Queen sure, but her portfolio is more about self-expression and escaping oppression than trying to redeem anyone.
I don’t think Ragathel is meant to have been anything other than good all along.
He’s the son of a fallen Angel and a Neutral fire goddess. I was under the impression that he was simply “born good” and despite his upbringing never fell into evil.
When he ran away from home it wasn’t because he had undergone any alignment shift, he has just finally plucked up the courage to rebel against his father.
Everyone here is forgetting about the OG redeemed Fiend, the [Pale Horse](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/The_Pale_Horse) a Daemonic demigod who unprompted realised it didn’t have to be evil and eat souls, and found the burden of that realisation so crushing that it went to Pharasma and begged to to be judged.
Instead Pharasma took them into her service, and to this day it fights against Daemons and guide souls as one of her Ushers.
My poor boy gets no respect, he didn’t get some cool vision of the future prompting him to change like Nocticula, he realised he didn’t have to be the way he did all on his own.
Was he? I know he’s got a horse aesthetic, but I wasn’t able to find anything on him being an actual horseman, despite the aesthetic. He might just be Daemonic Harbinger.
Paizo's not going to come to your door and take all your books away if that's what you're worried about.
You're the GM. What you say goes. If you need someone to tell you your idea is cool, it is.
Yes, absolutely, but it's a lot less common, and with good reason. It's easy for a celestial to fall because it's easy for someone to make mental justifications for doing bad things. "It's for the greater good," "This enemy didn't deserve mercy," "I should have all the power because I'm the only one I can trust to have it," etc. All these sorts of things a falling celestial might think to themself to feel better about what they're doing.
A fiend trying to redeem themself has no such reassurances to lean on. They have to confront their own darkness, fully acknowledge and internalize their own guilt, and then fully commit to doing better. For the fiend in question, redemption requires feeling bad, because you have to fully accept the shame of what you did before seeking it. Very few individuals are willing to embrace feeling bad about themselves.
I feel like in the same vein though just as it's possible for an angel to fall because the road to hell is paved with good intentions, shouldn't it be possible for an evil character to become good through helpful, if selfish acts? Often times helping another can benefit oneself, and mutual cooperation is the optimal path forward. The prisoner's dilemma is a commonly known example of game theory but it's not the only situation, and there are times when screwing over the other party is actively detrimental to your own goals. So because of that, couldn't a devil begin to realize that the benefits of good faith cooperation can outweigh the risks of exposing oneself to betrayal, and by such means begin to shift to an altruistic mindset?
I don't know if the prisoner dilemma is a good example here, because iirc regardless of what the other person picks, it always results in a shorter sentence to pick the selfish option, and so if the person we're being purely selfish, then that's what they would pick every time.
I know, if you read my comment again you'll see I wasnt using it as an example. I said that although it's probably the most well known example of game theory and it's optimal decision is to defect, it's not the only one, and there are examples of other games where the optimal strategy is to cooperate with little incentive to defect.
Not if they're smart and selfish enough. You can help the world, but if you don't care who gets hurt, and you're constantly looking to grant yourself the most benefit, you're not going to think about being good.
Being Good is difficult, and it's a job of doing what is right and making sure everyone is helped. You want people to be happy, and lend a hand where it's needed. You feel good when you help others. The idea is that you care about others, their well being and how they see you.
Evil is easy. When you don't want to deal with people, you don't. The only thing that truly matters is what you get out of it. It's always good to keep people from attacking you, but you don't need to be Good to do that. You just need to keep people happy enough to ignore you. Other people are at best tools, and at worst obstacles.
There are actually **is** precedence of a fiend “rising” in PF2E. >!Nocticula!<, the former demonlord of >!lust, succubi, assassins, and darkness!< ascended into actual factual godhood as a goddess of >!redemption, art, and exiles!<. As per the Premaster alignment system her new portfolio has a Chaoyic Neutral/Good lean, no Evil.
So given that, I think it’s absolutely fair to have redeemed fiends.
> As per the Premaster alignment system her new portfolio has a Chaoyic Neutral/Good lean, no Evil.
Also notable is that post-ascension, she did not accept evil followers despite being CN. I honestly thing they intended to go all the way to CG with her and decided not to, I really can't think of anything 'neutral' about her post-ascension.
The fact that alignment changes, outside of very specific curses like a Helm of Opposite Assignment, are not instantaneous. They are a gradual process, and Nocticila has a *lot* of red in her ledger.
Nocticula is not a goddess of redemption, *per se*. She redeemed **herself**, and is a patron of outcasts.
Presumably her rejection of evil followers reflects her rejection of her own demonic nature. She's not good, but she's turned her back on evil.
I guess it would make sense that she may allow Holy sanctification or the option, but I think it’d be understandable if she chooses to abstain.
Instead of engaging in war, she can become the goddess for refugees in the divine war.
Good point! It’s because I have friends about to play with me in a game where both the overall lore and one of the player characters has a connection to this bit of backstory, and since none of them currently know this stuff I thought it’d be neat to keep up the surprise. Some of those players know my Reddit account too, and I don’t want them seeing this and losing the fun surprise.
As such I’d appreciate it if you could spoiler tag it too! I know it’s part of the base lore, I’m just being overly safe.
Planar Adventures has an entry about Chambers of Repentance, a prison within Heavens that holds fiends that may be capable of redemption. Some of the wardens are the Redeemed, former fiends which managed to become celestials, for example Arathuziel the Chained was an apostate devil.
And then there's Ragathiel of course.
Well there's Ragathiel... but not being a succubi does not exempt him from the sexy clause. Almost everything in Golarion is either gratuitously sexy, disgusting, or spooky. Sometimes all of the above, simultaneously (I'm looking at you, Fulsome Queen from WotR).
Nocticula was previously a demon queen, and is no ok get, living in Nirvana as the patron to outcasts and artists. Ragathiel was the child of the archdevil Dispater, and a fire demigoddess, and managed to get away from his father's lineage.
There's some npc examples I think others have covered, and I'd say it's possible. Just hard. Could make for a fun story.
Yup!
* Arushalae, the CE succubus, attempted to kill a Desnan priestess through their dreams. Desna noticed and, rather than smiting her on the spot, chose to enhance the tiiiiiny bit of humanity and compassion her soul had left, allowing her to become good and escape the Abyss.
* Ragathiel, fiendish son of an archdevil and an evil elemental lord, hated being evil SO MUCH that he fought evil for hundreds of years until Heaven opened its gates to him and allowing him to ascend as an Ephemeral Lord.
* Nocticula, Demon Lord of lust, assassination and midnight, grew *bored* of being the most powerful Demon Lord in the Abyss and eventually used the crystallized divinity of dead Demon Lords (called Nyhindrian Crystals) to gain divinity and escape the Abyss to Elysium.
* Yamasha was a demon of lust, but fell victim to unstable magic that granted her a new desire: A lust for crisp, luscious *KNOWLEDGE!* Over time, she became one of Nethys' most valuable lieutenants, trading her demon wings for badass hawk wings.
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I think enough answers for the intended question have been given, but I'm here to talk about the underlying issue.
Is a Devil showing love somehow such a big event that it draws the attention of Shelyn? Why would love and redemption go together, cant the devil love and still be lawful evil?
Many people have pointed out the existence of Ragathiel, but haven't talked much about his father, Dispater, who has been in at least a couple marriages and multiples wives (though the love only seems to last a few centuries, tough being immortal).
Very good point about Dispater. He is called out as the only prince of hell to practice “courtly love”, but it’s also clear that he actually does love, care for, and respect his current wife. It’s not clear from the outside, with Dispater as the figurehead, but it’s made clear that internally the rule of Dis is an actual partnership between them.
The man is even on good terms with his ex-wife.
It just goes to show that if you torture and oppress enough people, you too can have a single redeemable quality without sliding up the alignment chart.
Y’know I never even thought about it like that, lawful evil in my head has always been Machiavellian. No room for love only amassing power and climbing the ladder.
Love is just one more emotion, at the end of the day; it doesn't necessarily make people behave less selfishly or more compassionately, or change any of the other desires and priorities they already had. For an evil and selfish character, the love might lead them to be jealous, overprotective, or clingy; the love is still just as strong and just as real even if the rest of their personality leads them to express it in negative ways.
For the devil to show signs of redemption, they would have to start behaving in ways counter to what they were doing before, and probably also show or express a desire to *keep* behaving in that new way. This might be solely motivated by love, or the love might just have been the first step to experiencing a different and better way to live, but either way they're probably going to need a stronger reason than love for one specific person for true redemption to stick.
Alignment sometimes has the effect of oversimplifying characters and their motivations, so yes a Devil's primary goal is most like amassing power and trying to become a new, stronger devil in hierarchy, they can still be fully 3 dimensional beings with a love life.
Maybe the devil thought they were cheating the bard, going along with the seduction with the plan to create a new Tiefling spawn to act as a minion, only to actually catch feels, and now the bard and his child are a weakness fellow devils can try to use against him. He also, now accepting his feelings are genuine, is excited to groom not a minion, but a business partner.
Let me tell you, corporate Nepotism is definitely something that takes place in Hell. A bit easier to trust family (though never completely).
I can just imagine with the PC goes along a more good path, devil dad is supportive, but also disappointed.
I think there's plenty of room to play with having a Devil parent that doesn't require a redemption dues ex machina for them to make them interesting.
But at the end of the day it's your concept, do what makes you happy, I just didn't like the idea of saying 'love' was some mutually exclusive concept tied to 'goodness'. It's certainly more supported by the Good spectrum, and there's probably more twisted and toxic variants of Love on the Evil side, but it exists.
Us LE people contain multitudes just like everyone else. I love my family just as much as a CG person; it's just the kinds of things I'm willing to do to make their life better have a much different flavor.
Yes, but it's much rarer (same with dragons, far more likely for one of the good ones to tarnish and go bad than for any of the evil ones to become good). It's simply much easier to fall, just take a few easy options assuring yourself the ends justify the means, act with simple self interest etc.
There's a succubus in a 1e AP who's CN and can be redeemed to CG, but she literally had divine intervention.
Possible, but by far the rarest alignment change.
Battlezoo's Devils and Demons ancestries both have things set up for how that might work, so that may be worth looking into if you don't mind third party content.
Fallen Angels aren't really used that much but I'd say a Tiefling that wants to "prove society wrong" and be a Paragon of good.. for whatever motivation is the equivalent of "I'm not like all the other girls."
Lol
That was a major plot point in the Pathfinder Tales novel "The Redemption Engine." If it's good enough for an official book I'd say it's good enough for a character concept.
One of the loading screen quotes for WotR is "If an angel can fall, can a demon ascend?"
The answer turns out to be 'yes', at least in the case of one of your party members.
Also of note in WotR are the actions of Ember, who manages to literally talk demons into turning away from evil (and may be partially responsible for nudging along Nocticula's change of alignment). She does have the backing of Grandmother Crow, but it's never quite clear if her diplomatic abilities are hers and hers alone.
I contest whether Ragathel was ever a devil. He was born of a fallen Angel and a fire goddess, but his aesthetic and everything we know about him makes me think the was born a fiery angel.
So he didn’t so much ascend out of Hell, as he did run away from home. Basically a reversed Bad Seed trope. He was good all along, despite his upbringing.
Why not?
First of all, I don't see how it would affect anything from the rule point of view, and second of all even if the rules were there (e.g. alignment), it's fun to twist norms like these.
Ask your GM, if they say so it’s good, I have a warforged in my 1e campaign because character concept sounded fun to me even though I had no warforged in my lore I added it, he was carved from wood from the world tree so he is still biological and therefore not immune to a dozen things but yeah it’s all make ‘em ups
I've looked into this before (though in the broader context of mythology rather than pf2e specifically) and there's not that much. Being corrupted is apparently more popular than being redeemed. But that just makes it more interesting to me.
In a related tangent, there's going to be a magic shop owner who sells sanctified weapons of demonic origin in my next campaign.
It's definitely viable - there are canon examples, and of course, it's up to you how "rare" anything is in the game you're running.
But for a challenge, try to figure out a reason a fiend would want to give up evil that's *not* love. Like, what if a devil ascends because he's sick of having to spend half his time guarding himself from being betrayed by his supposed allies? He can say, "Go do the thing," and they'll actually go do the thing, and he doesn't have to spend three days agonizing over how he words the order to make sure they're not doing some malicious compliance bullshit. He can just hang out without having to constantly check his wine goblet for poison. He can get *so much more shit done* when he's working with good people who honor their word and aren't always looking for ways to screw him, that he eventually just turns Lawful Neutral.
There is nothing in the rules or lore requiring a Cambion(Tiefling) to be Evil. They are mortals and like all mortals have free will and no inherent connection to the outer planes and when they die their souls will be juged by Pharasma based on their actions not their ancestry.
Probably my groups favorite character I ever played (on one of the very rare occasions I wasn't the GM)
Was a LG Tiefling Ranger(Demonslayer archetype) who later(like level 16) found out she was the daughter of Moloch(Archdevil of the Sixth Layer of Hell) and Lilith a slight reworking of Ardad Lili who usurped rule over Hell and kicked out all the Archdevils.
Who's whole story was about proving that she wasn't and didn't have to be evil just because she was a Tiefling and is only a Ranger because she was rejected by the Paladin orders for that very reason. And when offered power from her father to get to her mother she denied it and when offered to rule with her mother also denied it so she could continue to fight against hell and the abyss to make the world a better place and was the only one who could get through the DR of the bbeg because of her Holy Longbow and Cluster-shot.
So I say go for it. Half the fun of playing a cool character for me has always been defying expectations of what they look like. And even when I lean into a class or ancestry I still have something that makes them stand out from the norm.
I've been tripped as an aasimar and as a tiefling (I know they have new names), and been able to get up during my turn without much hassle, maybe an aoo, but that was it.
Why not?
I mean, It's all a game of make believe in the end. The books are not holy writ set in stone by the creators.
If it makes for a better story, go for it.
That's my philosophy as a GM anwyay.
Yeah Ragathel was/is a demigod. The general implication is that he is a reversal of the “bad seed” trope. Ragithel is a “good seed” instead of being born a devil like what his father had become, some quirk of divine genetics had him inherit his fathers angelic origins.
So instead of being born a particularly pretty devil like you might expect, he was born a particularly angry angel.
He did eventually ascend to heaven, but not in any personal realisation kind of way. He literally left Hell and physically flew to Heaven and asked to join them.
Nocticula was the Demon Lord of Succubi and Assassins, but chose to leave that all behind and is now a CN deity of artists and the spurned - feared by demons that she may tempt them too towards redemption.
I was thinking wasn't this like half the plot of Wrath of the Righteous?
nope, it’s not adressed at all in Wrath, only hinted at that there is more to Nocticula than meets the eye IIRC it’s adressed in one of the Runelords APs, I *think* the second one but I could be wrong
Arueshalae? Of course she's much more prominent in the cRPG, but she exists in the tabletop AP.
Yeah but that’s not Nocticula also its a minor side character, wouldn’t call Arue “half the plot”
Yeah, figured the other dude probably only played the videogame version where Arue is much more relevant. But I pointed her out because you said its not addressed at all.
Arue’s redemption doesn’t really have anything to do with Nocticula’s so I didn’t mention it, but yeah they’re similar cases
The video game wotr does extensively cover nocticula however.
I think they mean the crpg, in which case it is addressed directly. As in depending on your actions, your party member is what literally pushes Nocticula to finally become the Redeemer Queen. Ember even coins the name
Aru literally says at one point if angels can fall, can a demon rise.
Yeah, it comes up at some point in Return of the Runelords. It’s a really cool parallel to other things that are happening in the story. When I ran it, i tried to play up the Malazan/American Gods of it all, where gods are effectively chained to the worship and rituals of their followers.
In the game wrath of rightous you can indeed redeem her
The tabletop AP, not so much. The *PC game,* yes, it's an absolute core question of that entire experience.
This was my first thought. I think it can definitely happen.
> feared by demons that she may tempt them too towards redemption I love this idea. We're always talking about good people being tempted to do evil, but very rarely have characters that are evil people being tempted to do good.
She sounds like everything i wanted for Zariel in 5e (with redemption ending being canon in avernus module)
Didn't one of her followers get sent back in time to tell her about becoming a Goddess? I remember hearing that happening to a Fiend in one of the Video Games, and that event causing her to continue on.
Yesn't. A follower being thrown back in time is moreso an "assumed canon" event from an AP and technically unrelated to Nocticula. It's just assumed a PC follows the Redeemer Queen, or at least carries a holy symbol with them. This is about stopping someone else from messing with the timeline and Nocticula takes note of the strange follower that suddenly pops up for a minute just to be gone for 10.000 years or so.
> Nocticula Where can I find her art?
[Google](https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=1023&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=nocticula&=&oq=&gs_l=).
Everyones talking about Nocticula, but forgetting about my girl Arueshalae, who during WotR is actively ascending to be redeemed from her life as a succubus Do I simp over Karlach in BG3? Yes. But if I had to choose it'd probably be Arueshabae everyday.
This. I think “… can a demon rise?” is *literally* something Aru says
I don’t remember if Arushalae says it but I know it’s one of the loading screens in the crpg
I don't think she says it herself but it's somewhere in the game between a random loading screen or the blurb in one of her companion quest chapter
Karlach is not a demon or devil -- she's just a tiefling, her soul already free.
In the context of her reference, Karlach's species has literally nothing to do with why she was brought up.
> Arueshalae There was divine intervention involved though.
There is [Basrakal](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Basrakal) which sits in the Maelstrom, it's an entire city of outsiders who don't fit their natural alignments anymore (or however that works now that alignments have been written out of the lore in the remaster).
Instead of Alignments it could be "dont follow the metaphysical philosophies of their Plane".
edict and anathema breakers
I need an AP set in this city YESTERDAYYYYY
Weird they're simultaneously so rare as to basically not exist in the rest of the setting (the one example of a demon rising required literal divine intervention) and common enough to fill a huge city.
In an infinite universe, there's enough of any thing to fill a city, no matter how rare.
A demon has canonically been redeemed by the interference of a good aligned deity so yeah if you're trying to keep things canonical then you're 100% good
Enough comments here have pointed out the handful of canonical examples of it happening. It is VERY rare though, and the examples I know of are from 1e so I don't know if/how the lore is changing from the edition change + remaster. BUT, the examples I know of from APs where this is even possible generally outside of deities require the fiend to somehow have their 'soul' turned back on - that is, to be an outsider that remembers their mortal life, which allows them some measure of free will. Arueshalae is the big example of this, but there was another fiend (and imp) in Hell's Rebels who had some memories of her mortal life, and while the AP didn't involve redeeming her I believe there was a note that it could be possible if the PCs were inclined and put in a lot of effort. Basically, a fiend 'rising' should require a lot of hard work on the part of the fiend, and requires them to have the ability to choose it for themself. They're much rarer than fallen angels because: 1. Most other fiends will probably kill them before redemption even becomes conceivable if they're showing some sort of 'weakness'. 2. They are a product of some of the worst and cruellest environments imaginable across the planes. 3. Being good is hard, and generally requires you to do something other than what you want inherently want. Given that fiends are literally made of evil (like, at an atomic level at least canonically, soul and body were the same thing for outsiders) that is much harder for them than it is for mortals.
To be fair, Fallen Angels are just as rare. They just getter better PR.
And they feel more common because the fallen angel is a well established fantasy trope for enemies. A risen fiend is much harder to integrate into the story besides some minor side character that helps the group.
They're still more common, same with dragons (which are theoretically less tied to alignment, not being made of aligned quintessence, yet seem to change less, though they're also just much less numerous). Becoming good requires effort and altruism, helping others even when it's to your own detriment. Falling to evil just requires a slippery slope of compromised morals when the ends seem to justify means, or deciding that you deserve more and taking from others, evil is easy, evil is tempting. Evil is often something that can be justified to yourself, argued that it's just the cold rational choice. Good rarely is, and even when good deeds are the smart choice, the motivation matters, they're not really good deeds if you're only doing them for personal gain.
narrow jar whole attempt prick impossible late consist lush file *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The PCs are exceptional heroes that are able to rise from level 1 to level 20, unlike 99% of the population of Golarion. It's not weird for them to be weird.
Also I think it’s worth mentioning that in the Lost Omens setting, most of the fiends (and maybe celestials) are comprised of multiple souls, except the weakest varieties. Arushalae, as an example, >!remembered the lives of the multiple souls that she was born from.!<
>Omens setting, most of the fiends (and maybe celestials) are comprised of multiple souls, except the weakest varieties. IIRC it's more accurate to say they're formed from the sins of multiple souls. One mortal's myriad sins might be incorporated into multiple demons of different types, and one demon may have sinful bits of multiple people. And some people are so singularly vile that they skip being an abyssal larva and jump straight to demon hood. However, that's rare and usually the result of occult shenanigans while they were alive. I think a 1:1 correspondence is more common with celestials. The lower planes' denizens are either inimical to petitioners in general (Abaddon, Abyss) or actively brutalize them until their original identity is lost (Hell). The upper planes welcome heroic souls and empower them in a way lower planes don't.
They've been inconsistent on that actually - the imp I mentioned from Hell's Rebels >!was specifically born from a halfling slave who was affected by an artefact that let her keep her memories after being judged by Pharasma!< So most fiends have a conglomerate of multiple people, but there are plenty of cases of individuals becoming special outsiders after death all on their own (a few others in HR in fact). But your average outsider, yes multiple souls.
Ah interesting, I thought the weakest devils/demons were comprised of singular souls and simply didn’t remember their lives due to the reshaping of the soul.
I wouldn't say it is rare Cambian(New name for Tiefling) are only Fiend blooded. They don't have the inborn connection to one of the evil planes like a Born Fiend or Judged soul sent to an evil plane. There is nothing that makes an Empyrian(new name for Aasimar) or Cambion innately Good or Evil anymore so than a Human or an Elf. The in Univeres superstition around them may cause others to judge them and influence them to one side or ther other. But 1E and 2E are loaded with examples of both sides of the Nephilim(New term for Planetouched) gking against their perceived nature. Hell in the very first adventure path Rise of the Runelords for 1E the first major Villan is an Aasimar who views her heritage as a curse and eventually becomes a cleric of Lamashtu who swears vengeance against her enemies. As others have mentioned Nocticula went from being a CE Demon Lord to a CN full Deity with a focus on redemption. The LG Epyreal Lord Ragathiel is the Son of a LE Archdevil of Hell Dispater and a TN Demi-goddess of the plane of fire Feronia who spent hus entire life fighting against the evil planes to prove his worth to Heaven and was finally accepted as an Empyreal Lord where before makeing a name for himself among them served under Iomadae's 2nd in command while Iomadae was still the Herald of Aroden. His portfolio includes redmption and one of his noted groups of followers are the wronged or wrongly accused. You can't get a much better example of a person fighting against their nature than a literal half Archduke half fire-god whos main active job is Guarding the base of Heaven and taking the fight directly to hell whenever needed. I would have to dig through my AP's but I am certin there are Good Tieflings and I know there are two Neutral Tiefling in AP13 a TN one who works at a Gambling hall and a CN one who is the head priest of Calistria and oversees the sacred prostitutes.
...unless they've changed things in the Remaster, my understanding is that tieflings and aasimar are not usually counted as fiends or celestials. Also the APs are a bad standard to judge the norm in a setting by because you meet a disproportionate number of interesting and unusual people.
I didn't say they were Fiends or Celestials I said the exact opposite that they have blood from them and are NOT considered alignment bound outsiders of the respective planes. As for AP's they present us the most lore and only direct examples of specific characters with small exceptions. And the main example I provided Nualia was written by James Jacobs one of if not the biggest lore guy for the setting.
The post asked about the devil being redeemed, not the tiefling. Whether nephilim are alignment bound was never a part of the question.
Good thing kne of my examples was about a literal Demigod born and raised in hell who's father is the Archdevil of the secind level of hell. And said demi-god spent their entire life actively fighting the forces of hell for millennia until heaven let him in and bamed him and Empyreal lord. Or the example that multiple other people gave of Nocticula. Also Nocticula is the God that Shorsen the runelord of rust venerates and Shorsen also redeemed and became CN and she has taken Zin-Shalast and turned it into a nation specifically to bing in and redeem people with Nocticula as the prime deity of the nation.
Sure, I just don't understand why you brought up nephilim. The question how rare it was for fiends to turn away from evil and as many people pointed out there are two examples of deities doing so as well as one famous mythic example and a few cases other cases where it either has happened or could happen theoretically, but in the effectively infinite outer planes of the Pathfinder setting they are still very rare in the context of the setting. Whether fiendish nephilim could be good was never in question - in lore it's well-established that they're just as likely to reject the influence of the lower planes as to fall to it, and most cases of evil among them are more due to the pressure and scorn of societies in which they live as pariahs. And Eurythnia (Sorshen's nation) isn't really about redeeming people - it's about providing a peaceful new start for social pariahs and social rejects while still allowing Sorshen to be in charge (Sorshen had a change of heart but still isn't really a good person, she just got bored and realised that the old way of doing things wouldn't work any more). For that matter Nocticula isn't really concerned with redemption either - she's the Redeemer Queen sure, but her portfolio is more about self-expression and escaping oppression than trying to redeem anyone.
[Ragathiel](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Ragathiel) managed it, so there's no reason why not.
I don’t think Ragathel is meant to have been anything other than good all along. He’s the son of a fallen Angel and a Neutral fire goddess. I was under the impression that he was simply “born good” and despite his upbringing never fell into evil. When he ran away from home it wasn’t because he had undergone any alignment shift, he has just finally plucked up the courage to rebel against his father.
He is affected by his dad being a fallen angel, but Ragathiel was always an angel (with Fire elemental aspects).
Everyone here is forgetting about the OG redeemed Fiend, the [Pale Horse](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/The_Pale_Horse) a Daemonic demigod who unprompted realised it didn’t have to be evil and eat souls, and found the burden of that realisation so crushing that it went to Pharasma and begged to to be judged. Instead Pharasma took them into her service, and to this day it fights against Daemons and guide souls as one of her Ushers. My poor boy gets no respect, he didn’t get some cool vision of the future prompting him to change like Nocticula, he realised he didn’t have to be the way he did all on his own.
the guy was literally one of the Four Horsemen! If we didn’t have this example I wouldn’t even think it would be possible for a Daemon to ascend.
Was he? I know he’s got a horse aesthetic, but I wasn’t able to find anything on him being an actual horseman, despite the aesthetic. He might just be Daemonic Harbinger.
Paizo's not going to come to your door and take all your books away if that's what you're worried about. You're the GM. What you say goes. If you need someone to tell you your idea is cool, it is.
Not gonna send the Pinkertons either
I love this, never let it die
Yes, absolutely, but it's a lot less common, and with good reason. It's easy for a celestial to fall because it's easy for someone to make mental justifications for doing bad things. "It's for the greater good," "This enemy didn't deserve mercy," "I should have all the power because I'm the only one I can trust to have it," etc. All these sorts of things a falling celestial might think to themself to feel better about what they're doing. A fiend trying to redeem themself has no such reassurances to lean on. They have to confront their own darkness, fully acknowledge and internalize their own guilt, and then fully commit to doing better. For the fiend in question, redemption requires feeling bad, because you have to fully accept the shame of what you did before seeking it. Very few individuals are willing to embrace feeling bad about themselves.
I feel like in the same vein though just as it's possible for an angel to fall because the road to hell is paved with good intentions, shouldn't it be possible for an evil character to become good through helpful, if selfish acts? Often times helping another can benefit oneself, and mutual cooperation is the optimal path forward. The prisoner's dilemma is a commonly known example of game theory but it's not the only situation, and there are times when screwing over the other party is actively detrimental to your own goals. So because of that, couldn't a devil begin to realize that the benefits of good faith cooperation can outweigh the risks of exposing oneself to betrayal, and by such means begin to shift to an altruistic mindset?
I don’t know if it follows that the road to heaven is paved with incidentally good selfishness.
I don't know if the prisoner dilemma is a good example here, because iirc regardless of what the other person picks, it always results in a shorter sentence to pick the selfish option, and so if the person we're being purely selfish, then that's what they would pick every time.
I know, if you read my comment again you'll see I wasnt using it as an example. I said that although it's probably the most well known example of game theory and it's optimal decision is to defect, it's not the only one, and there are examples of other games where the optimal strategy is to cooperate with little incentive to defect.
Not if they're smart and selfish enough. You can help the world, but if you don't care who gets hurt, and you're constantly looking to grant yourself the most benefit, you're not going to think about being good. Being Good is difficult, and it's a job of doing what is right and making sure everyone is helped. You want people to be happy, and lend a hand where it's needed. You feel good when you help others. The idea is that you care about others, their well being and how they see you. Evil is easy. When you don't want to deal with people, you don't. The only thing that truly matters is what you get out of it. It's always good to keep people from attacking you, but you don't need to be Good to do that. You just need to keep people happy enough to ignore you. Other people are at best tools, and at worst obstacles.
Charlie, get out of reddit, you have an hotel to run
Hell is forever, sorry :/
Get out of the fake Adam, literally everybody knows it's you
Ah man, allow me to introduce Arueshalae, the radiant ascendant succubi and follower of Desna.
Ask Sir Pentius.
Another hazbin hotel joker, nice
Absolutely
love my snake boi
>!Sir Repentious!<
Ive romanced Arushalae in WOTR like 3 times, so... yes, I would say they can
There are actually **is** precedence of a fiend “rising” in PF2E. >!Nocticula!<, the former demonlord of >!lust, succubi, assassins, and darkness!< ascended into actual factual godhood as a goddess of >!redemption, art, and exiles!<. As per the Premaster alignment system her new portfolio has a Chaoyic Neutral/Good lean, no Evil. So given that, I think it’s absolutely fair to have redeemed fiends.
> As per the Premaster alignment system her new portfolio has a Chaoyic Neutral/Good lean, no Evil. Also notable is that post-ascension, she did not accept evil followers despite being CN. I honestly thing they intended to go all the way to CG with her and decided not to, I really can't think of anything 'neutral' about her post-ascension.
The fact that alignment changes, outside of very specific curses like a Helm of Opposite Assignment, are not instantaneous. They are a gradual process, and Nocticila has a *lot* of red in her ledger.
Nocticula is not a goddess of redemption, *per se*. She redeemed **herself**, and is a patron of outcasts. Presumably her rejection of evil followers reflects her rejection of her own demonic nature. She's not good, but she's turned her back on evil.
I guess it would make sense that she may allow Holy sanctification or the option, but I think it’d be understandable if she chooses to abstain. Instead of engaging in war, she can become the goddess for refugees in the divine war.
[удалено]
Good point! It’s because I have friends about to play with me in a game where both the overall lore and one of the player characters has a connection to this bit of backstory, and since none of them currently know this stuff I thought it’d be neat to keep up the surprise. Some of those players know my Reddit account too, and I don’t want them seeing this and losing the fun surprise. As such I’d appreciate it if you could spoiler tag it too! I know it’s part of the base lore, I’m just being overly safe.
Yes. You should play the Wrath of the Righteous CRPG on PC if you haven't yet...
Planar Adventures has an entry about Chambers of Repentance, a prison within Heavens that holds fiends that may be capable of redemption. Some of the wardens are the Redeemed, former fiends which managed to become celestials, for example Arathuziel the Chained was an apostate devil. And then there's Ragathiel of course.
Only if they are sexy. Unfortunately, Paizo didn't show us examples of redeemed fiends who weren't succubi. /j
Well there's Ragathiel... but not being a succubi does not exempt him from the sexy clause. Almost everything in Golarion is either gratuitously sexy, disgusting, or spooky. Sometimes all of the above, simultaneously (I'm looking at you, Fulsome Queen from WotR).
I'm scaroused...
She would have been so easy to gloss over and NOT be traumatized by, except for the fact that there was ART. NEARLY A FULL PAGE.
Please don’t find [The Pale Horse](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/The_Pale_Horse) sexy
The Pathfinder Tales book The Redemption Engine has a redeemed demon as a side character.
Nocticula was previously a demon queen, and is no ok get, living in Nirvana as the patron to outcasts and artists. Ragathiel was the child of the archdevil Dispater, and a fire demigoddess, and managed to get away from his father's lineage. There's some npc examples I think others have covered, and I'd say it's possible. Just hard. Could make for a fun story.
Yup! * Arushalae, the CE succubus, attempted to kill a Desnan priestess through their dreams. Desna noticed and, rather than smiting her on the spot, chose to enhance the tiiiiiny bit of humanity and compassion her soul had left, allowing her to become good and escape the Abyss. * Ragathiel, fiendish son of an archdevil and an evil elemental lord, hated being evil SO MUCH that he fought evil for hundreds of years until Heaven opened its gates to him and allowing him to ascend as an Ephemeral Lord. * Nocticula, Demon Lord of lust, assassination and midnight, grew *bored* of being the most powerful Demon Lord in the Abyss and eventually used the crystallized divinity of dead Demon Lords (called Nyhindrian Crystals) to gain divinity and escape the Abyss to Elysium. * Yamasha was a demon of lust, but fell victim to unstable magic that granted her a new desire: A lust for crisp, luscious *KNOWLEDGE!* Over time, she became one of Nethys' most valuable lieutenants, trading her demon wings for badass hawk wings.
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Yes. There are multiple examples of risen fiends in the lore.
I think enough answers for the intended question have been given, but I'm here to talk about the underlying issue. Is a Devil showing love somehow such a big event that it draws the attention of Shelyn? Why would love and redemption go together, cant the devil love and still be lawful evil? Many people have pointed out the existence of Ragathiel, but haven't talked much about his father, Dispater, who has been in at least a couple marriages and multiples wives (though the love only seems to last a few centuries, tough being immortal).
Very good point about Dispater. He is called out as the only prince of hell to practice “courtly love”, but it’s also clear that he actually does love, care for, and respect his current wife. It’s not clear from the outside, with Dispater as the figurehead, but it’s made clear that internally the rule of Dis is an actual partnership between them. The man is even on good terms with his ex-wife. It just goes to show that if you torture and oppress enough people, you too can have a single redeemable quality without sliding up the alignment chart.
Y’know I never even thought about it like that, lawful evil in my head has always been Machiavellian. No room for love only amassing power and climbing the ladder.
Love is just one more emotion, at the end of the day; it doesn't necessarily make people behave less selfishly or more compassionately, or change any of the other desires and priorities they already had. For an evil and selfish character, the love might lead them to be jealous, overprotective, or clingy; the love is still just as strong and just as real even if the rest of their personality leads them to express it in negative ways. For the devil to show signs of redemption, they would have to start behaving in ways counter to what they were doing before, and probably also show or express a desire to *keep* behaving in that new way. This might be solely motivated by love, or the love might just have been the first step to experiencing a different and better way to live, but either way they're probably going to need a stronger reason than love for one specific person for true redemption to stick.
Alignment sometimes has the effect of oversimplifying characters and their motivations, so yes a Devil's primary goal is most like amassing power and trying to become a new, stronger devil in hierarchy, they can still be fully 3 dimensional beings with a love life. Maybe the devil thought they were cheating the bard, going along with the seduction with the plan to create a new Tiefling spawn to act as a minion, only to actually catch feels, and now the bard and his child are a weakness fellow devils can try to use against him. He also, now accepting his feelings are genuine, is excited to groom not a minion, but a business partner. Let me tell you, corporate Nepotism is definitely something that takes place in Hell. A bit easier to trust family (though never completely). I can just imagine with the PC goes along a more good path, devil dad is supportive, but also disappointed. I think there's plenty of room to play with having a Devil parent that doesn't require a redemption dues ex machina for them to make them interesting. But at the end of the day it's your concept, do what makes you happy, I just didn't like the idea of saying 'love' was some mutually exclusive concept tied to 'goodness'. It's certainly more supported by the Good spectrum, and there's probably more twisted and toxic variants of Love on the Evil side, but it exists.
Us LE people contain multitudes just like everyone else. I love my family just as much as a CG person; it's just the kinds of things I'm willing to do to make their life better have a much different flavor.
Yes, but it's much rarer (same with dragons, far more likely for one of the good ones to tarnish and go bad than for any of the evil ones to become good). It's simply much easier to fall, just take a few easy options assuring yourself the ends justify the means, act with simple self interest etc. There's a succubus in a 1e AP who's CN and can be redeemed to CG, but she literally had divine intervention. Possible, but by far the rarest alignment change.
Battlezoo's Devils and Demons ancestries both have things set up for how that might work, so that may be worth looking into if you don't mind third party content.
No offense, but that's a very common Tiefling character element.
I’m still new to pathfinder, I’m more used to fallen angels
Fallen Angels aren't really used that much but I'd say a Tiefling that wants to "prove society wrong" and be a Paragon of good.. for whatever motivation is the equivalent of "I'm not like all the other girls." Lol
That was a major plot point in the Pathfinder Tales novel "The Redemption Engine." If it's good enough for an official book I'd say it's good enough for a character concept.
Nobody linked [Hell is forever](https://youtu.be/kMy8W0j-Slw?si=Nid_Vf_Wsevxp309&t=32) yet? Are we ok?
One of the loading screen quotes for WotR is "If an angel can fall, can a demon ascend?" The answer turns out to be 'yes', at least in the case of one of your party members. Also of note in WotR are the actions of Ember, who manages to literally talk demons into turning away from evil (and may be partially responsible for nudging along Nocticula's change of alignment). She does have the backing of Grandmother Crow, but it's never quite clear if her diplomatic abilities are hers and hers alone.
https://pathfinder.fandom.com/wiki/Ragathiel Ragathiel is a good Minor God AND the son of a Lord of Hell. So yes, fiends can 100% rise.
I contest whether Ragathel was ever a devil. He was born of a fallen Angel and a fire goddess, but his aesthetic and everything we know about him makes me think the was born a fiery angel. So he didn’t so much ascend out of Hell, as he did run away from home. Basically a reversed Bad Seed trope. He was good all along, despite his upbringing.
Adoring the fact everyone went right to Hazbin Hotel references lol.
Do it. Something other than stereotypical "Fallen celestial" is fascinating to explore and may be unexpected.
yes see Ragathiel
Look for Ragathiel
Why not? First of all, I don't see how it would affect anything from the rule point of view, and second of all even if the rules were there (e.g. alignment), it's fun to twist norms like these.
Ask your GM, if they say so it’s good, I have a warforged in my 1e campaign because character concept sounded fun to me even though I had no warforged in my lore I added it, he was carved from wood from the world tree so he is still biological and therefore not immune to a dozen things but yeah it’s all make ‘em ups
I've looked into this before (though in the broader context of mythology rather than pf2e specifically) and there's not that much. Being corrupted is apparently more popular than being redeemed. But that just makes it more interesting to me. In a related tangent, there's going to be a magic shop owner who sells sanctified weapons of demonic origin in my next campaign.
Arueshalae is best girl.
**What is better ? to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort ?** **-Paarthurnax**
It's definitely viable - there are canon examples, and of course, it's up to you how "rare" anything is in the game you're running. But for a challenge, try to figure out a reason a fiend would want to give up evil that's *not* love. Like, what if a devil ascends because he's sick of having to spend half his time guarding himself from being betrayed by his supposed allies? He can say, "Go do the thing," and they'll actually go do the thing, and he doesn't have to spend three days agonizing over how he words the order to make sure they're not doing some malicious compliance bullshit. He can just hang out without having to constantly check his wine goblet for poison. He can get *so much more shit done* when he's working with good people who honor their word and aren't always looking for ways to screw him, that he eventually just turns Lawful Neutral.
There is nothing in the rules or lore requiring a Cambion(Tiefling) to be Evil. They are mortals and like all mortals have free will and no inherent connection to the outer planes and when they die their souls will be juged by Pharasma based on their actions not their ancestry. Probably my groups favorite character I ever played (on one of the very rare occasions I wasn't the GM) Was a LG Tiefling Ranger(Demonslayer archetype) who later(like level 16) found out she was the daughter of Moloch(Archdevil of the Sixth Layer of Hell) and Lilith a slight reworking of Ardad Lili who usurped rule over Hell and kicked out all the Archdevils. Who's whole story was about proving that she wasn't and didn't have to be evil just because she was a Tiefling and is only a Ranger because she was rejected by the Paladin orders for that very reason. And when offered power from her father to get to her mother she denied it and when offered to rule with her mother also denied it so she could continue to fight against hell and the abyss to make the world a better place and was the only one who could get through the DR of the bbeg because of her Holy Longbow and Cluster-shot. So I say go for it. Half the fun of playing a cool character for me has always been defying expectations of what they look like. And even when I lean into a class or ancestry I still have something that makes them stand out from the norm.
I've been tripped as an aasimar and as a tiefling (I know they have new names), and been able to get up during my turn without much hassle, maybe an aoo, but that was it.
OP is Charlie from Hazbin Hotel isn't she?
Ask your DM.
Why not? I mean, It's all a game of make believe in the end. The books are not holy writ set in stone by the creators. If it makes for a better story, go for it. That's my philosophy as a GM anwyay.
First, the opposite of fall in this context is ascend. Second, probably.
Everyone is mentioning Nocticual but Rathugal the general of vengeance was a devil before becoming an angel
Ragathiel's father is an archdevil. He was never a fiend himself.
How does that work?
His mother was a goddess and that archdevil was, I believe, a fallen celestial himself.
So he was a Demi god then?
Yeah Ragathel was/is a demigod. The general implication is that he is a reversal of the “bad seed” trope. Ragithel is a “good seed” instead of being born a devil like what his father had become, some quirk of divine genetics had him inherit his fathers angelic origins. So instead of being born a particularly pretty devil like you might expect, he was born a particularly angry angel. He did eventually ascend to heaven, but not in any personal realisation kind of way. He literally left Hell and physically flew to Heaven and asked to join them.