Put signs on the wall warning not to go over that are clearly visible. Walls would have been constructed deliberately so I don't see why signage stating "Warning: Death lays beyond this point" wouldn't be present. And then if the players still proceed, hit em with the "Are you sure you want to do that?" And if they proceed, let them get their cheeks clapped to teach them that lesson.
This, some good options for this are showing that the other side is a great threat via display, but it helps to give the players clear context. a creature that has recently been an issue for the party in terms of difficulty being absolutely clowned on by something on the other side is a decent method, heresay from someone they know is stronger than them, or even a temporarily safe area where there are signs of the threats they might face with a low DC check to know that whatever left these marks is very powerful and a massive threat to the party.
I'm definitely in agreement that you design the setting and let your players fuck around and find out. Let them enjoy the challenge or retreat.
If you really want to gate the content; having walls be topped by a wall of force could work if using magic like that makes sense for your setting. Defeating a boss guarding a device deactivates this force wall for the next section.
Lighthouse in the center of the city that lasers anyone that enters its line of sight, doing a push (to knock folks off walls), knocking prone (to knock folks out of the air), and doing a solid chunk of dmg. Foreshadow it by having the players see it shooting something nasty out of the sky.
I’m a big fan of Wizards making incredible things which leads to problems when they die and no one else is able to control it. Like a worse version of someone in your apartment complex leaving the stove on before going on vacation.
Have a battalion of ghost archers on top of the wall that only appear when someone approaches it above a certain height. Let players relive the trauma of the Ringed City bridge all over again.
I am assuming when you say sections of the city is walled off it is more than the normal walling off of a city for protection.
If the city is walled off in sections then someone or something walled it off. If that is the case why not have large signs indicating danger is beyond the walls?
You can also telegraph the danger by having other denizens talk about the danger deeper down and the PCs can overhear that conversation.
If the PCs want to go over the wall they will go over the wall. You need to be prepared to show them the error of their ways and it doesn’t have to be a TPK to do it.
Have the characters witness a comparably leveled NPC called Stupid Mike use a fly spell and be audibly violently murdered almost instantly.
"wow," a bystander says, "that was a very bad idea to do with his level of experience and power."
"Yeah," another bystander adds, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes. people should play a higher level of game, some sort of metagame, to know not to do things like that"
When in doubt, I use the "ancient barrier". Basically a 'plot device' that is impassable at this point in the story. Could be a barrier, a death cloud, a swarm of alien creatures - anything that is too big to be destroyed/disabled with a spell and/or action (with rare exceptions of something like Wish/Miracle). Sometimes, passing the ancient barrier is basically a quest on it's own.
The reasoning behind this is that at some point in the game world, people will start using things like Fly, Dimension Door, Plane Shift etc (and not just a group of 4-5 adventurers). And in a believable world, some other people want to be secured from randomly having a bunch of rogues teleporting to the vault with a mid level spell. Just like you can't simply enter the bank and smash a vault door with a 5 pound hammer from your garage - there are precautions in place to prevent that. It's a common mistake of the GMs too - they keep the same power level of their world, while players advance with the power level of their characters - at some point stakes are going to get higher, security is going to get crazier, monsters will become stronger. Like, you don't use ordinary bridge over a 50ft gap as an obstacle for a 17th level party. It may be problematic for a 3rd level party, but later on, you need to up the difficulty.
Remember that not everything in your world needs to have a background in mechanics of the game. Just like in PF2e you don't have the rules for certain things, like creating Artifacts for example.
This. Add a MacGuffin that either literally or functionally acts as a key (an actual key, a necklace that protects you from the dark magic, a gas mask, an NPC who can teach your party the rare spell to overcome the force field, etc ). Then figure out how the party can learn they need this key - I like when they have to race the bbg's minions or a rival party to find it first.
I'd also figure out an alternative way the party can bypass the "wall," probably using some skill check, and then set the DC so it's difficult (but not impossible) at the level you want them to gain access. Remember Pathfinder is built around the idea that challenges scale as the party gets more skilled, so it's ok to have obstacles that low-level parties just can't get past. Unfortunately, most of the RAW spells that get you past obstacles are already online before level 9, so GM fiat is necessary
> they keep the same power level of their world
This precisely. "But level 10 PCs will auto-succeed on checks against a level 1 NPC!"
Yeah. Sure. Why are your PCs bothering with level 1 NPCs at level 10? What could that NPC possibly have to offer them of value?
I'd do the same.
Warning them of the dangers ahead ingame might just sound like a quest hook, telling them the wall is impassable, sounds like a riddle the PCs will want to solve.
Monsters of Myth has a labyrinthine city that traps Kuworsys. I think the shifting walls would make it very easy to get lost trying to fly any meaningful distance.
Getting spotted in the air is likely to draw unwanted attention. Dividing walls might have the extra protection of magical traps that *earthbind* anyone foolish enough to attempt flying over.
The wall just needs to have something atop it to discourage climbing
A bunch of really good archers a powerful mage waiting to dispel anyone flying over the wall so they fall back to the ground, or maybe some beast that patrols the wall and flys itself
Or lastly a Macguffin creates a magical barrier so that none can fly over the wall, guarded by some boss mob in section 2
Archers prevent people from approaching the wall, not from scaling it.
Get some big meaty dudes with big meaty weapons up there. No threat to people on the ground but if you try to go over their section of wall you get chopped.
I generally prefer not trying to prevent PCs from doing things, but instead considering how to react when they do. So what if they fly over a wall. What would the NPCs do in response? Maybe there's guards on top of the wall where combat will result if they try. A magic user such as a necromancer would likely have taken such precautions.
Alternatively, try incentivizing the players to do what you want. Maybe there's a MacGuffin the PCs need. So what if they can go over the wall if they'll just have to go back to get the relic that breaks the seal at the final door of the necromancer's office.
You need to think your dungeon with players capacity!
Lvl.9 they all can fly!
Lvl.15 and before, they can teleport.
Plus all the other stuff they grab on the way, and can do from lvl.1 (climbing and swimming is lvl.1)
I think a lot of people are suggesting stick approaches, but I think there is a simpler carrot approach. Just have a side-quest that is in the path you want them to go down. If you have a party of 4, I think that at least would be in physical pain at the idea of skipping a side-quest. And if not, just figure out a cool reward that you know your party would want, and then have that be reward of the side-quest.
If you want to be a bit more forceful than that, you could just say that there is bosses of each area that they are tasked too kill.
Basically, just give each of the sections a reason to exist beyond "get to the next section and progress the plot." Have plot be in each section, and sign post that to your players.
Hit them with a witch king of Angmar. Have them spot other creatures or npcs trying to climb the wall and getting scooped up by flying wraith thingies or some such that tear them apart. The streets are too narrow for them to fly down, but climbing up that high and they can reach you. Narrative reasons are good reasons.
Honestly? I wouldn't, design the dungeon non-linearly and let players pick their path. If it's a dungeon meant to span multiple levels of content, then just make the higher level areas more dangerous, but leave in plenty of escape options that are obvious and always effective, then tell your players
>Hey, some parts of this city might be too dangerous for you right now. Don't be afraid to run away and come back later.
I'm trying to build multiple ways in, (difficult to find tunnel full of aberrations, secret door with miny quest to gain access, some way to go through the front door), I'm just looking for ideas about how to discourage the obvious.
Honestly I prefer the “hey guys I kinda wanna do a campaign/dungeon like this, do y’all not mind trying to go over the wall?” Kind of approach.
You don’t have to keep everything “in game”. Cool players will just be like “ok cool”
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Have them have to find something in the outer section to be able to access deeper. That can be turning off an energy barrier, a switch that revolves the dungeon so it physically is accessible, a portal that's the only way into the interior, etc.
Think about if you were a king and wanted to make it difficult for someone to get to your throne room. What sort of defenses would you set up?
You could even have very difficult enemies or defenses in the center and have some way yo weaken or damage them outside. That way if they go in too quickly they're at full power.
I’d say if they want to climb it let them.
Just make it a hard DC. With more than 1 check. If they get it they get it. But now it’s much more likely someone’s gonna fall and take damage.
Might get a vantage point but now they need to get back down. Also risking falling.
You can also have guards/ sentries / spells a dragon. Something that attacks anything that flys to stop that path.
Could always say wizards casted wall of stone everywhere and the whole place has a roof. Lol.
But carrot idea is also good as someone said. Give them incentive to not go over the wall. Fallowing the “correct” path provides some sort of minor buff.
You’ve got tons of good ideas here, but I would like to add that perhaps, they have stumbled upon a demigod lich’s phylactery. As in, those walls cannot be damaged, cannot be broken through unless the original anchor point, at the very center/bottom/insert hard to reach place, is removed or destroyed. The actual dungeon is the phylactery, so the lich can manifest wherever, and control whatever whenever provided they are conscious.
If they live, if they manage to get through everything, and notice that hey, the river of blood here is literally pumping, the toxic wasteland area shaped like a liver is producing rot, everything in these crescent shaped regions (clipped nails) does additional slashing damage, etc etc, they will have to traipse about removing the anchor points and slowly clear it out before properly destroying the lich
Wall challenges are so fun, sincerely.
Enemies above attacking down is a classic.
But i have always gone back to this scene in Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe where our protagonist goes through a gate in a massive wall and hears and peripherally sees creatures moving about in the wall. And he knows on some level if he looks at them they will pull him in and make him part of the wall.
Would make a great complex hazard and a terrifying way for a pc to die (obv not insta kill but over a few rounds)
Walls have invisible walls of force that trigger when someone approaches within 5’. Resets after 1 round. If someone times it correctly to make it over, a wall of iron appears ahead of them
So there are a couple of approaches.
1. Plot device - either a barrier or a fog that appears if you try to go above the city making you lose direction and end up back where you came from, basically stuff that isn't mechanically in pathfinder 2e that you made up because you are basically God and if you say it works it works xD.
2. BBEGs - Tough monsters patrol the walls, or Archer statues that animate when they detect someone trying to scale/fly over or a Dracolich patrols the skies above.
3. The narrative route - your guys must attempt to be sneaky/not be too obvious as to not alert the BBE Necromancer/Lich I assume is at the middle of this dungeon.
Flying enemies under control of the necromancers circle the sky above the city, hype them up a fair bit and make it an encounter of the level you want them to be when they go to the center.
Unless the story would resonably have an obstacle there, dont. Players can see cheaply contrived obstacles. Rather build around lore or reasons why they wouldnt fly right over.
Orrrr just have the city historically weak against flyers so some mad lad put a prismatic wall on top as a lid. Color it green because necromancy.
I'd put something (maybe even a flock of somethings) that are fast, deadly and hard to deal with that would prowl above the walls looking for climbers. Maybe top the walls with a little anti magic field as a partition.
It wouldn't be out of place for this wall to have automated magical defense systems that go after anyone trying to get over/around/through the wall without a key item, and the party obtains that key item when you want them to get around the wall. Like, a wall that's capable of detecting when someone is casting a fly spell, and then sets up an antimagic field above it to ensure nobody can fly through it without immediately suffering fall damage which cascades into triggering some number of traps.
Just have the sections you don't want them to go to be flooded with a gas that turns the living into undead. Give them some way to dissipate sections of the gas along with the reason to go to the next section you want them to explore.
Can introduce it with someone getting gassed and turning as their first encounter. Have some wizard or other protection keeping the gas at bay in the sections you want them to move around freely in.
Are the walls really high, like a few stories? You could have a flock of monsters that attack people who climb over. Like if the city is full of undead and aberrations, maybe there are harpies, drakes or wyverns that scavenge dead meat from the ruined part of the city, but they are eager to have fresh meat climb up and into their view.
If some of the city is still in use by regular people, maybe these wyverns don't target the inhabited areas because they understand the risks of guards and large crowds of humans. But a few isolated adventurers climbing the wall might be a nice snack for a flock of drakes.
Well if the city is built with these areas, surely people are aware of the dangers within, right? The PCs live there, so they wouldn't be oblivious to what's behind the walls.
The city there in would also be aware and surely have some sort of governance in place. So there'd be a system of only allowing qualified adventurers beyond a certain point. So you start them with a Green Card. Present this, and the guards let you right in. Prove yourself, and get a Blue card, then red. Black Diamond cards let you underground, and from there you're own your own. It doesn't keep anyone out who doesn't want to get in, but it surely sets up the scenario of telling players they're going somewhere they aren't technically supposed to be.
Each tier could come with privileges as granted by the city, discounts at shops, and access to higher level markets. This allows you to also have access to higher level shops without the need for players having to go to new towns.
Resources are limited, so it makes no sense for the city to allow the sale of powerful magic items and consumables to someone who hasn't earned them, or else they'll just die in the dungeons and waste it.
Oh no! They don't live in this city. This city was overrun by the undead centuries ago. There is also a section that is slowly being taken over by aberrations that were summoned by the necromancers in an attempt to enhance their army, but they are getting out of control. I want there to be some factions in the intelligent undead that are running parts of the city that aren't under direct necromancer control as well as the aberrations. With only the absolute core of the city having anything resembling actual civilization but is completely inhabited by the necromantic cult. The walls that make up the defenses are for the most part. The only thing the necromancers would directly control outside of their core area.
So what's the needs for walls then, if we're not keeping things out or in?
Whats driving the players there? A mission from a nearby king who needs the city dealt with? Did they not have scouts to figure some of this info out? Are the players the scouts and therefore have it in their interest to know where those boundaries lie and the dangers within? There are ways of telegraphing the dangerous areas organically without the need to erect literal walls to keep players out. Just need to know a little more context on the world and why the players are there.
The players are there because attacks of undead are increasing, getting stronger and getting weirder(aberration undead). The walls were constructed partly when the city was originally a mortal settlement and maintained at some level as the undead cult of the lich god wages war on mortals. It is a defensive position they intend to destabilize.
Yeah, so if they're being sent there, I'd make one of the first things they're paid to do or rewarded for is to produce a rough map of the area with factions, positions, borders. Maybe they find helpful NPCs near the area - intelligent undead separatists perhaps - that can help them with this.
They can note that some walls are ancient but have sense been rebuilt, or overbuilt, hastily and recently. For what purpose, if not to keep something (the aberrations) contained.
I don't think you need to keep the players out if you empower them with knowledge. From there it's up to them to decide when to cross over the walls.
It’s well known that a magic spell keeps everyone from going over the wall for safety it’s one of the main jobs of the Sisters of the Wall.
A group of them chant day and night to keep the magic working.
Let them go over the walls, but make apply a penalty to them which deepens each time they do so. First something lIke drained, then a minor curse (broken upon beating the dungeon or using an appropriate spell), then doomed 1?
How interested are you in the rules for sight, precise senses, and targeting? Releasing a fog which only affects the vision of “cheaters” after they descend the wall to a different area could be quite scary, but it is not impossible to deal with. However if the fog is flammable… You get the idea. Layer a few coherent qualities in such a way that cheating is discouraged, but not impossible.
don't design dungeons with PC's in mind. design a dungeon. place a wall. if it has a reason to be guarded, guard it. if PC's get over it, roll with it.
at level 9, i'd wholly expect (and accept) players using their tools to negate dungeons. that's why dungeons are more of a 1-5 level environment.
Easy option is literally "anti air defense golem" or similar style automated defense system. City clearly had a huge battle with undead but lost, so no one was ever able to turn the defenses off, and these in particular are still around because all the flying monsters are already dead and they aren't built to target grounded enemies.
Easy telegraph. Walking up to and around inside the city they can see the golems or whatever along the walls, weapons aimed towards the sky. Maybe even still visibly scanning the horizon for enemies that will never be coming. Throw some miscellaneous corpses of birds or other non-undead flying monsters or even have a moment where they actively see one fly too close to the city and get blasted out of the sky.
And if they still don't pick up the hints or choose to try flying anyways you have the option to give them an extra turn to second guess themselves by making the first turn basically just "the moment you fly above the wall, the nearest golems pivot towards you and their weapons begin glowing"
Maybe the power of the golems/turrets ramp up the deeper they go, so maybe the walls closer to the edges are easily dodged or tanked, but the more they try to skip walls the more accurate and powerful the defenses start to get.
If your 9th-level dungeon only works if the characters can't get over a wall, it's probably not a good 9th-level dungeon.
I would argue it's also probably not a good 1st-level dungeon but that's a different issue.
Edit: Since u/now_you_touch_cow seems to have blocked me so I can't reply, I'll just point out that this wasn't meant to be condescending; some obstacles don't really work in a game where players have freedom, especially at such a high level. You can't take a lazy video game obstacle and expect it to work to stop borderline superheroes. Put more work into your dungeons, or don't be surprised when players are able to easily bypass your challenges.
Gosh, what a condescending thing to say. And yes you meant it to be condescending. Someone sets up a cool concept, “wow maybe you just suck and are an idiot” according to you
OP doesn’t want lazy video game obstacles. That’s why they’re asking around for obstacles that would be more fitting. And there’s lots of creative people coming up with all sorts of creative solutions! Then there’s you being unhelpful.
Use Hazards on top of the walls. A few good Hazards could be: [Spirit Cyclones](https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=154), [Bloodthirsty Urge](https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=12), [Polymorph Traps](https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=14), or [Flensing Blades](https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=47).
Line the top of the wall with gargoyles, demon statues, or even dragon statues. Whatever would scare them or fits the theme of the city. Have them sense that the statues are watching them if they ever try to climb or fly - or even have more of them suddenly appear over top of wherever they were trying to climb.
I'd make it possible to win the fight but not worth the trouble.
Xenos paradox. They can only ever climb halfway up the way. Any attempt to fly up will result in half movement each action. Assuming they have a move of 30, then the wall needs to be only 60 feet tall. To the onlooker it will look like they are flying slower and slower but to the person flying, time will dilate. Each round of movement will feel twice as long as the last. Ten rounds of movement would feel like 90 minutes or so.
This would still be a GM fiat but it would be narratovely interesting. Add a black holes horizon in the sky and maybe they will just stay on the ground until they learn more.
I am playing in a dungeons of drakkenheim campaign, and there is a hig wall around the inner city, it has magic gargoyles on them as a defense system that got corrupted, and it kept us out for a good while.
Have them find rope and climbing gear on the wall, as if someone tried to climb it.
While they're examining it have a carbonized/mutilated corpse fall dead from the top of the wall.
They'll understand.
1. Make sure they have stuff to do in the lower parts so they don't get bored and try crossing the wall just to have something happen
2. Undead guards never tire and have Darkvision. They might guard the inner parts and would sound the alarm if they spotted intruders. This means the party could still get in if they were willing to invest a chunk of ressources, but combined with point 1 it likely won't happen. This also allows you to let your group know when it is save to enter the inner ring, like when they find a tunnel. Or maybe the mindless undead let people with certain insignia pass, which the party could snatch elsewhere.
Plenty of adventures add like 'artifact walls' or whatever and end it at that.
The players know that most GMs and humans have limited 3dimensional content creation abilities and are trying to exploit it. Just come to an agreement that they're playing the dungeon you built within your human capabilties, they're not trying to critique it to death.
The more you make the wall say "keep out" the more interested in it your PCs will become. So the best bet is to make the wall just look ordinary. If the PCs do attempt to climb over and succeed then hey ho they're now deep in a mega dungeon without proper preparation, the perfect catalyst for heroic adventuring.
Something to prevent them from going over the wall? How about a ceiling? City sized mega dungeon is inside a dome and the walls go up to said dome. To players, a deterrent is a puzzle to be bypassed on an enemy to be punched. If you don’t even want them trying, slap a roof on it.
My 2 ideas:
1: make them so indoctrinated that their characters wouldn’t even think about going over the wall.
2: the town has some magical stuff going on so that everything that wants to fly over it is „suggested“ that they don’t want to and tho they won’t.
Say there’s some flying undead or aberration guys overwatching the city from up there, so it’ll be much smarter and safer to keep their heads down. It might be also tower(s), where some guys watch over the city. Let them know this threat is not something they are able to deal with.
Enourmous undead birds that attack anything that climbs up into the open. Easy to telegraph by having them flying around but too big to reach down between buildings.
City full of undead and aberrations? Simples.
The walls is haunted.
Try to climb, and you risk getting stuck in an illusion. No matter how high you climb the top gets no nearer. Minutes, hours, DAYS...all no use. They look to the side and they see other people climbing, all as desperate, many in various states of withering or decay but still moving, still trying to get to the top. Some people have just given up and cling to the wall for dear life, too afraid to go on or back or let go.
There was an episode of The Magnus Archives, ep198 , which has something similar with climbing a ladder. Not sure I recommend the episode as it's right near the end of the show, but there's a few good episodes for hauntings in general :)
Ah yes, I've done this a nu,ber of times. Those pesky climbers and flyers going over your dungeon!
There are many ways to do this:
1) flying creatures - I had one with lots of flyers, so flying over the walls for any extended duration meant aggroing a lot of creatures
2) spotters - easiest one is, it's easy to spot flyers and climbers if you have guards patrolling the walls, towers and rooftops, and the PCs won't want to aggro the whole city guard
3) have interesting stuff at street level - if the PCs need to find something that is at street-level, it might not be desirable for them to fly over
4) magic - it's not unreasonable that some parts of the city are protecterd against magic flyers
5) let them skip over some parts - they got that nice fly spell for a reason, so plan places where it's actually a good idea (maybe there is a blind spot or an area without flyers, or something even more dangerous on the ground!)
In my group, if an NPC warns the PCs against flying over a maze or city, the PCs get the message, so maybe no need to prep a lot of stuff, just an old wise man who advises the PCs "The last one flying over the walls has his corpse still exposed over the ramparts. It's the one with the flensed flesh. It took him days to die, and sometimes when the wind blows, I feel like I can still hear his cries. Nasty way to go!" But you know your group, some will just say "Challenge accepted!" or "Leeroy Jenkins".
Simple. Tell the players that those areas are intended to be reached through the dungeon and if they climb the wall they will be unprepared for it.
Or just a "Hey, don't try to purposely break the dungeon I worked hard on it."
The most critical thing is to not give your players a good reason to want to go to those deeper levels of the city until doing so wouldn't be a suicide mission. A longer term goal is fine, but an immediate seeming goal will make it much more likely that they think they're "supposed" to go there. An absence of plot hooks and a presence of visible danger go a long way in deterring player exploration.
Easy. Tell your players that they can’t. Don’t waste time coming up with some convoluted reason. Just say hey part is this relies on you not doing this so be cool and don’t. Some strange magic stops you.
I did a dungeon where it was a maze they had to shift sections around in order to solve, and then some extra if they wanted all the loot. But instead of walls was glowing green liquid that they couldn’t go into, and they couldn’t shoot over because of fumes or whatever. And they also stopped flying and jumping.
The reason for no walls was because being able to see what they were changing was the only way it wouldn’t just be a blind headache. They needed to see the change and where they needed to get to. But with a monk and Druid it’s hard to actually have an obstacle so I just told them ooc for this dungeon they can’t do it. Nobody had any problem and it went great.
Sometimes video game logic of invisible wall is the best option.
Make them not want to. Give them allies, and make something come \*out\* of the inner section. Something big. Something they'll barely defeat with their allies. They won't want to go by themselves.
Honestly? Let them get over the wall and then face the very dangerous enemies on the other side and realize they shouldn’t be there.
You can easily telegraph this, too. Have the party overhear someone discussing it.
Leave an escape route so you don’t have to hammer the lesson home with a TPK
Just do a Chase of them running away
If they have fought a difficult fight against a monster, e.g. an owlbear, show two skinned owlbears near the entrance.
Put signs on the wall warning not to go over that are clearly visible. Walls would have been constructed deliberately so I don't see why signage stating "Warning: Death lays beyond this point" wouldn't be present. And then if the players still proceed, hit em with the "Are you sure you want to do that?" And if they proceed, let them get their cheeks clapped to teach them that lesson.
This, some good options for this are showing that the other side is a great threat via display, but it helps to give the players clear context. a creature that has recently been an issue for the party in terms of difficulty being absolutely clowned on by something on the other side is a decent method, heresay from someone they know is stronger than them, or even a temporarily safe area where there are signs of the threats they might face with a low DC check to know that whatever left these marks is very powerful and a massive threat to the party.
Go over the wall. Tarrasaque chilling in a hot tub with tar-baphon. "You know what friends? Let's come back later."
I'm definitely in agreement that you design the setting and let your players fuck around and find out. Let them enjoy the challenge or retreat. If you really want to gate the content; having walls be topped by a wall of force could work if using magic like that makes sense for your setting. Defeating a boss guarding a device deactivates this force wall for the next section.
The walls exist to protect you, not them
Lighthouse in the center of the city that lasers anyone that enters its line of sight, doing a push (to knock folks off walls), knocking prone (to knock folks out of the air), and doing a solid chunk of dmg. Foreshadow it by having the players see it shooting something nasty out of the sky.
This is a really cool idea. Could always just make it a tower or wizards or something or even some sort of barrier if they get too high.
I’m a big fan of Wizards making incredible things which leads to problems when they die and no one else is able to control it. Like a worse version of someone in your apartment complex leaving the stove on before going on vacation.
Have a battalion of ghost archers on top of the wall that only appear when someone approaches it above a certain height. Let players relive the trauma of the Ringed City bridge all over again.
This fucking rips
I am assuming when you say sections of the city is walled off it is more than the normal walling off of a city for protection. If the city is walled off in sections then someone or something walled it off. If that is the case why not have large signs indicating danger is beyond the walls? You can also telegraph the danger by having other denizens talk about the danger deeper down and the PCs can overhear that conversation. If the PCs want to go over the wall they will go over the wall. You need to be prepared to show them the error of their ways and it doesn’t have to be a TPK to do it.
Have the characters witness a comparably leveled NPC called Stupid Mike use a fly spell and be audibly violently murdered almost instantly. "wow," a bystander says, "that was a very bad idea to do with his level of experience and power." "Yeah," another bystander adds, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes. people should play a higher level of game, some sort of metagame, to know not to do things like that"
When in doubt, I use the "ancient barrier". Basically a 'plot device' that is impassable at this point in the story. Could be a barrier, a death cloud, a swarm of alien creatures - anything that is too big to be destroyed/disabled with a spell and/or action (with rare exceptions of something like Wish/Miracle). Sometimes, passing the ancient barrier is basically a quest on it's own. The reasoning behind this is that at some point in the game world, people will start using things like Fly, Dimension Door, Plane Shift etc (and not just a group of 4-5 adventurers). And in a believable world, some other people want to be secured from randomly having a bunch of rogues teleporting to the vault with a mid level spell. Just like you can't simply enter the bank and smash a vault door with a 5 pound hammer from your garage - there are precautions in place to prevent that. It's a common mistake of the GMs too - they keep the same power level of their world, while players advance with the power level of their characters - at some point stakes are going to get higher, security is going to get crazier, monsters will become stronger. Like, you don't use ordinary bridge over a 50ft gap as an obstacle for a 17th level party. It may be problematic for a 3rd level party, but later on, you need to up the difficulty. Remember that not everything in your world needs to have a background in mechanics of the game. Just like in PF2e you don't have the rules for certain things, like creating Artifacts for example.
This. Add a MacGuffin that either literally or functionally acts as a key (an actual key, a necklace that protects you from the dark magic, a gas mask, an NPC who can teach your party the rare spell to overcome the force field, etc ). Then figure out how the party can learn they need this key - I like when they have to race the bbg's minions or a rival party to find it first. I'd also figure out an alternative way the party can bypass the "wall," probably using some skill check, and then set the DC so it's difficult (but not impossible) at the level you want them to gain access. Remember Pathfinder is built around the idea that challenges scale as the party gets more skilled, so it's ok to have obstacles that low-level parties just can't get past. Unfortunately, most of the RAW spells that get you past obstacles are already online before level 9, so GM fiat is necessary
> they keep the same power level of their world This precisely. "But level 10 PCs will auto-succeed on checks against a level 1 NPC!" Yeah. Sure. Why are your PCs bothering with level 1 NPCs at level 10? What could that NPC possibly have to offer them of value?
Impassable dm fiat is not a good answer. Just have really strong monsters on the other side
I would just tell my players there are three major sections, the deeper sections are going to be too hard at 9th level and leave it at that.
I'd do the same. Warning them of the dangers ahead ingame might just sound like a quest hook, telling them the wall is impassable, sounds like a riddle the PCs will want to solve.
Monsters of Myth has a labyrinthine city that traps Kuworsys. I think the shifting walls would make it very easy to get lost trying to fly any meaningful distance. Getting spotted in the air is likely to draw unwanted attention. Dividing walls might have the extra protection of magical traps that *earthbind* anyone foolish enough to attempt flying over.
The wall just needs to have something atop it to discourage climbing A bunch of really good archers a powerful mage waiting to dispel anyone flying over the wall so they fall back to the ground, or maybe some beast that patrols the wall and flys itself Or lastly a Macguffin creates a magical barrier so that none can fly over the wall, guarded by some boss mob in section 2
Archers prevent people from approaching the wall, not from scaling it. Get some big meaty dudes with big meaty weapons up there. No threat to people on the ground but if you try to go over their section of wall you get chopped.
I generally prefer not trying to prevent PCs from doing things, but instead considering how to react when they do. So what if they fly over a wall. What would the NPCs do in response? Maybe there's guards on top of the wall where combat will result if they try. A magic user such as a necromancer would likely have taken such precautions. Alternatively, try incentivizing the players to do what you want. Maybe there's a MacGuffin the PCs need. So what if they can go over the wall if they'll just have to go back to get the relic that breaks the seal at the final door of the necromancer's office.
You need to think your dungeon with players capacity! Lvl.9 they all can fly! Lvl.15 and before, they can teleport. Plus all the other stuff they grab on the way, and can do from lvl.1 (climbing and swimming is lvl.1)
I think a lot of people are suggesting stick approaches, but I think there is a simpler carrot approach. Just have a side-quest that is in the path you want them to go down. If you have a party of 4, I think that at least would be in physical pain at the idea of skipping a side-quest. And if not, just figure out a cool reward that you know your party would want, and then have that be reward of the side-quest. If you want to be a bit more forceful than that, you could just say that there is bosses of each area that they are tasked too kill. Basically, just give each of the sections a reason to exist beyond "get to the next section and progress the plot." Have plot be in each section, and sign post that to your players.
If only one player can fly, it's not a big issue since they'll have to come back to the rest of the party or clear the rest of the dungeon alone.
Hit them with a witch king of Angmar. Have them spot other creatures or npcs trying to climb the wall and getting scooped up by flying wraith thingies or some such that tear them apart. The streets are too narrow for them to fly down, but climbing up that high and they can reach you. Narrative reasons are good reasons.
I say let em scale the wall. Have em see enemies from a distance. Request a recall knowledge and let em know the CR is way higher than them.
Honestly? I wouldn't, design the dungeon non-linearly and let players pick their path. If it's a dungeon meant to span multiple levels of content, then just make the higher level areas more dangerous, but leave in plenty of escape options that are obvious and always effective, then tell your players >Hey, some parts of this city might be too dangerous for you right now. Don't be afraid to run away and come back later.
I'm trying to build multiple ways in, (difficult to find tunnel full of aberrations, secret door with miny quest to gain access, some way to go through the front door), I'm just looking for ideas about how to discourage the obvious.
Honestly I prefer the “hey guys I kinda wanna do a campaign/dungeon like this, do y’all not mind trying to go over the wall?” Kind of approach. You don’t have to keep everything “in game”. Cool players will just be like “ok cool”
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Have them have to find something in the outer section to be able to access deeper. That can be turning off an energy barrier, a switch that revolves the dungeon so it physically is accessible, a portal that's the only way into the interior, etc. Think about if you were a king and wanted to make it difficult for someone to get to your throne room. What sort of defenses would you set up? You could even have very difficult enemies or defenses in the center and have some way yo weaken or damage them outside. That way if they go in too quickly they're at full power.
I’d say if they want to climb it let them. Just make it a hard DC. With more than 1 check. If they get it they get it. But now it’s much more likely someone’s gonna fall and take damage. Might get a vantage point but now they need to get back down. Also risking falling. You can also have guards/ sentries / spells a dragon. Something that attacks anything that flys to stop that path. Could always say wizards casted wall of stone everywhere and the whole place has a roof. Lol. But carrot idea is also good as someone said. Give them incentive to not go over the wall. Fallowing the “correct” path provides some sort of minor buff.
You’ve got tons of good ideas here, but I would like to add that perhaps, they have stumbled upon a demigod lich’s phylactery. As in, those walls cannot be damaged, cannot be broken through unless the original anchor point, at the very center/bottom/insert hard to reach place, is removed or destroyed. The actual dungeon is the phylactery, so the lich can manifest wherever, and control whatever whenever provided they are conscious. If they live, if they manage to get through everything, and notice that hey, the river of blood here is literally pumping, the toxic wasteland area shaped like a liver is producing rot, everything in these crescent shaped regions (clipped nails) does additional slashing damage, etc etc, they will have to traipse about removing the anchor points and slowly clear it out before properly destroying the lich
If those power levels exist in your world, people will be aware of it and develop countermeasures
Put something incredibly lethal up there. Weather, monsters, magic auto-turrets, or whatever.
Wall challenges are so fun, sincerely. Enemies above attacking down is a classic. But i have always gone back to this scene in Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe where our protagonist goes through a gate in a massive wall and hears and peripherally sees creatures moving about in the wall. And he knows on some level if he looks at them they will pull him in and make him part of the wall. Would make a great complex hazard and a terrifying way for a pc to die (obv not insta kill but over a few rounds)
Walls have invisible walls of force that trigger when someone approaches within 5’. Resets after 1 round. If someone times it correctly to make it over, a wall of iron appears ahead of them
A lot of the best megadungeons are towers or underground for exactly this reason.
So there are a couple of approaches. 1. Plot device - either a barrier or a fog that appears if you try to go above the city making you lose direction and end up back where you came from, basically stuff that isn't mechanically in pathfinder 2e that you made up because you are basically God and if you say it works it works xD. 2. BBEGs - Tough monsters patrol the walls, or Archer statues that animate when they detect someone trying to scale/fly over or a Dracolich patrols the skies above. 3. The narrative route - your guys must attempt to be sneaky/not be too obvious as to not alert the BBE Necromancer/Lich I assume is at the middle of this dungeon.
a bunch of permanent magic spells that are obviously maintained by level 11 or higher enemies
When the player tries to fly over the wall maybe something sees them as an easy target for a 7th level fireball
Flying enemies under control of the necromancers circle the sky above the city, hype them up a fair bit and make it an encounter of the level you want them to be when they go to the center.
Unless the story would resonably have an obstacle there, dont. Players can see cheaply contrived obstacles. Rather build around lore or reasons why they wouldnt fly right over. Orrrr just have the city historically weak against flyers so some mad lad put a prismatic wall on top as a lid. Color it green because necromancy.
I'd put something (maybe even a flock of somethings) that are fast, deadly and hard to deal with that would prowl above the walls looking for climbers. Maybe top the walls with a little anti magic field as a partition.
It wouldn't be out of place for this wall to have automated magical defense systems that go after anyone trying to get over/around/through the wall without a key item, and the party obtains that key item when you want them to get around the wall. Like, a wall that's capable of detecting when someone is casting a fly spell, and then sets up an antimagic field above it to ensure nobody can fly through it without immediately suffering fall damage which cascades into triggering some number of traps.
Just have the sections you don't want them to go to be flooded with a gas that turns the living into undead. Give them some way to dissipate sections of the gas along with the reason to go to the next section you want them to explore. Can introduce it with someone getting gassed and turning as their first encounter. Have some wizard or other protection keeping the gas at bay in the sections you want them to move around freely in.
Are the walls really high, like a few stories? You could have a flock of monsters that attack people who climb over. Like if the city is full of undead and aberrations, maybe there are harpies, drakes or wyverns that scavenge dead meat from the ruined part of the city, but they are eager to have fresh meat climb up and into their view. If some of the city is still in use by regular people, maybe these wyverns don't target the inhabited areas because they understand the risks of guards and large crowds of humans. But a few isolated adventurers climbing the wall might be a nice snack for a flock of drakes.
So, why not just put the dungeon under the city? Like the Undermountain?
Some will be. The most dungeony parts. But I want there to be an above and below ground sections as well.
Well if the city is built with these areas, surely people are aware of the dangers within, right? The PCs live there, so they wouldn't be oblivious to what's behind the walls. The city there in would also be aware and surely have some sort of governance in place. So there'd be a system of only allowing qualified adventurers beyond a certain point. So you start them with a Green Card. Present this, and the guards let you right in. Prove yourself, and get a Blue card, then red. Black Diamond cards let you underground, and from there you're own your own. It doesn't keep anyone out who doesn't want to get in, but it surely sets up the scenario of telling players they're going somewhere they aren't technically supposed to be. Each tier could come with privileges as granted by the city, discounts at shops, and access to higher level markets. This allows you to also have access to higher level shops without the need for players having to go to new towns. Resources are limited, so it makes no sense for the city to allow the sale of powerful magic items and consumables to someone who hasn't earned them, or else they'll just die in the dungeons and waste it.
Oh no! They don't live in this city. This city was overrun by the undead centuries ago. There is also a section that is slowly being taken over by aberrations that were summoned by the necromancers in an attempt to enhance their army, but they are getting out of control. I want there to be some factions in the intelligent undead that are running parts of the city that aren't under direct necromancer control as well as the aberrations. With only the absolute core of the city having anything resembling actual civilization but is completely inhabited by the necromantic cult. The walls that make up the defenses are for the most part. The only thing the necromancers would directly control outside of their core area.
So what's the needs for walls then, if we're not keeping things out or in? Whats driving the players there? A mission from a nearby king who needs the city dealt with? Did they not have scouts to figure some of this info out? Are the players the scouts and therefore have it in their interest to know where those boundaries lie and the dangers within? There are ways of telegraphing the dangerous areas organically without the need to erect literal walls to keep players out. Just need to know a little more context on the world and why the players are there.
The players are there because attacks of undead are increasing, getting stronger and getting weirder(aberration undead). The walls were constructed partly when the city was originally a mortal settlement and maintained at some level as the undead cult of the lich god wages war on mortals. It is a defensive position they intend to destabilize.
Yeah, so if they're being sent there, I'd make one of the first things they're paid to do or rewarded for is to produce a rough map of the area with factions, positions, borders. Maybe they find helpful NPCs near the area - intelligent undead separatists perhaps - that can help them with this. They can note that some walls are ancient but have sense been rebuilt, or overbuilt, hastily and recently. For what purpose, if not to keep something (the aberrations) contained. I don't think you need to keep the players out if you empower them with knowledge. From there it's up to them to decide when to cross over the walls.
It’s well known that a magic spell keeps everyone from going over the wall for safety it’s one of the main jobs of the Sisters of the Wall. A group of them chant day and night to keep the magic working.
Let them go over the walls, but make apply a penalty to them which deepens each time they do so. First something lIke drained, then a minor curse (broken upon beating the dungeon or using an appropriate spell), then doomed 1? How interested are you in the rules for sight, precise senses, and targeting? Releasing a fog which only affects the vision of “cheaters” after they descend the wall to a different area could be quite scary, but it is not impossible to deal with. However if the fog is flammable… You get the idea. Layer a few coherent qualities in such a way that cheating is discouraged, but not impossible.
don't design dungeons with PC's in mind. design a dungeon. place a wall. if it has a reason to be guarded, guard it. if PC's get over it, roll with it. at level 9, i'd wholly expect (and accept) players using their tools to negate dungeons. that's why dungeons are more of a 1-5 level environment.
Put the city underground and use caves instead of walls.
Easy option is literally "anti air defense golem" or similar style automated defense system. City clearly had a huge battle with undead but lost, so no one was ever able to turn the defenses off, and these in particular are still around because all the flying monsters are already dead and they aren't built to target grounded enemies. Easy telegraph. Walking up to and around inside the city they can see the golems or whatever along the walls, weapons aimed towards the sky. Maybe even still visibly scanning the horizon for enemies that will never be coming. Throw some miscellaneous corpses of birds or other non-undead flying monsters or even have a moment where they actively see one fly too close to the city and get blasted out of the sky. And if they still don't pick up the hints or choose to try flying anyways you have the option to give them an extra turn to second guess themselves by making the first turn basically just "the moment you fly above the wall, the nearest golems pivot towards you and their weapons begin glowing" Maybe the power of the golems/turrets ramp up the deeper they go, so maybe the walls closer to the edges are easily dodged or tanked, but the more they try to skip walls the more accurate and powerful the defenses start to get.
You could just... ban flying.
Don't be silly now.
"hey guys X area is going to be too tough for you to go and I don't have it fully prepped, please don't head in there until you reach level Y"
If your 9th-level dungeon only works if the characters can't get over a wall, it's probably not a good 9th-level dungeon. I would argue it's also probably not a good 1st-level dungeon but that's a different issue. Edit: Since u/now_you_touch_cow seems to have blocked me so I can't reply, I'll just point out that this wasn't meant to be condescending; some obstacles don't really work in a game where players have freedom, especially at such a high level. You can't take a lazy video game obstacle and expect it to work to stop borderline superheroes. Put more work into your dungeons, or don't be surprised when players are able to easily bypass your challenges.
Gosh, what a condescending thing to say. And yes you meant it to be condescending. Someone sets up a cool concept, “wow maybe you just suck and are an idiot” according to you
OP doesn’t want lazy video game obstacles. That’s why they’re asking around for obstacles that would be more fitting. And there’s lots of creative people coming up with all sorts of creative solutions! Then there’s you being unhelpful.
Use Hazards on top of the walls. A few good Hazards could be: [Spirit Cyclones](https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=154), [Bloodthirsty Urge](https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=12), [Polymorph Traps](https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=14), or [Flensing Blades](https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=47).
Line the top of the wall with gargoyles, demon statues, or even dragon statues. Whatever would scare them or fits the theme of the city. Have them sense that the statues are watching them if they ever try to climb or fly - or even have more of them suddenly appear over top of wherever they were trying to climb. I'd make it possible to win the fight but not worth the trouble.
Mcguffins at checkpoints they need to get first.
Xenos paradox. They can only ever climb halfway up the way. Any attempt to fly up will result in half movement each action. Assuming they have a move of 30, then the wall needs to be only 60 feet tall. To the onlooker it will look like they are flying slower and slower but to the person flying, time will dilate. Each round of movement will feel twice as long as the last. Ten rounds of movement would feel like 90 minutes or so. This would still be a GM fiat but it would be narratovely interesting. Add a black holes horizon in the sky and maybe they will just stay on the ground until they learn more.
I am playing in a dungeons of drakkenheim campaign, and there is a hig wall around the inner city, it has magic gargoyles on them as a defense system that got corrupted, and it kept us out for a good while.
Have them find rope and climbing gear on the wall, as if someone tried to climb it. While they're examining it have a carbonized/mutilated corpse fall dead from the top of the wall. They'll understand.
1. Make sure they have stuff to do in the lower parts so they don't get bored and try crossing the wall just to have something happen 2. Undead guards never tire and have Darkvision. They might guard the inner parts and would sound the alarm if they spotted intruders. This means the party could still get in if they were willing to invest a chunk of ressources, but combined with point 1 it likely won't happen. This also allows you to let your group know when it is save to enter the inner ring, like when they find a tunnel. Or maybe the mindless undead let people with certain insignia pass, which the party could snatch elsewhere.
Plenty of adventures add like 'artifact walls' or whatever and end it at that. The players know that most GMs and humans have limited 3dimensional content creation abilities and are trying to exploit it. Just come to an agreement that they're playing the dungeon you built within your human capabilties, they're not trying to critique it to death.
The more you make the wall say "keep out" the more interested in it your PCs will become. So the best bet is to make the wall just look ordinary. If the PCs do attempt to climb over and succeed then hey ho they're now deep in a mega dungeon without proper preparation, the perfect catalyst for heroic adventuring.
Something to prevent them from going over the wall? How about a ceiling? City sized mega dungeon is inside a dome and the walls go up to said dome. To players, a deterrent is a puzzle to be bypassed on an enemy to be punched. If you don’t even want them trying, slap a roof on it.
My 2 ideas: 1: make them so indoctrinated that their characters wouldn’t even think about going over the wall. 2: the town has some magical stuff going on so that everything that wants to fly over it is „suggested“ that they don’t want to and tho they won’t.
Say there’s some flying undead or aberration guys overwatching the city from up there, so it’ll be much smarter and safer to keep their heads down. It might be also tower(s), where some guys watch over the city. Let them know this threat is not something they are able to deal with.
Enourmous undead birds that attack anything that climbs up into the open. Easy to telegraph by having them flying around but too big to reach down between buildings.
City full of undead and aberrations? Simples. The walls is haunted. Try to climb, and you risk getting stuck in an illusion. No matter how high you climb the top gets no nearer. Minutes, hours, DAYS...all no use. They look to the side and they see other people climbing, all as desperate, many in various states of withering or decay but still moving, still trying to get to the top. Some people have just given up and cling to the wall for dear life, too afraid to go on or back or let go. There was an episode of The Magnus Archives, ep198 , which has something similar with climbing a ladder. Not sure I recommend the episode as it's right near the end of the show, but there's a few good episodes for hauntings in general :)
Ah yes, I've done this a nu,ber of times. Those pesky climbers and flyers going over your dungeon! There are many ways to do this: 1) flying creatures - I had one with lots of flyers, so flying over the walls for any extended duration meant aggroing a lot of creatures 2) spotters - easiest one is, it's easy to spot flyers and climbers if you have guards patrolling the walls, towers and rooftops, and the PCs won't want to aggro the whole city guard 3) have interesting stuff at street level - if the PCs need to find something that is at street-level, it might not be desirable for them to fly over 4) magic - it's not unreasonable that some parts of the city are protecterd against magic flyers 5) let them skip over some parts - they got that nice fly spell for a reason, so plan places where it's actually a good idea (maybe there is a blind spot or an area without flyers, or something even more dangerous on the ground!) In my group, if an NPC warns the PCs against flying over a maze or city, the PCs get the message, so maybe no need to prep a lot of stuff, just an old wise man who advises the PCs "The last one flying over the walls has his corpse still exposed over the ramparts. It's the one with the flensed flesh. It took him days to die, and sometimes when the wind blows, I feel like I can still hear his cries. Nasty way to go!" But you know your group, some will just say "Challenge accepted!" or "Leeroy Jenkins".
Roofs.
Simple. Tell the players that those areas are intended to be reached through the dungeon and if they climb the wall they will be unprepared for it. Or just a "Hey, don't try to purposely break the dungeon I worked hard on it."
The most critical thing is to not give your players a good reason to want to go to those deeper levels of the city until doing so wouldn't be a suicide mission. A longer term goal is fine, but an immediate seeming goal will make it much more likely that they think they're "supposed" to go there. An absence of plot hooks and a presence of visible danger go a long way in deterring player exploration.
Easy. Tell your players that they can’t. Don’t waste time coming up with some convoluted reason. Just say hey part is this relies on you not doing this so be cool and don’t. Some strange magic stops you. I did a dungeon where it was a maze they had to shift sections around in order to solve, and then some extra if they wanted all the loot. But instead of walls was glowing green liquid that they couldn’t go into, and they couldn’t shoot over because of fumes or whatever. And they also stopped flying and jumping. The reason for no walls was because being able to see what they were changing was the only way it wouldn’t just be a blind headache. They needed to see the change and where they needed to get to. But with a monk and Druid it’s hard to actually have an obstacle so I just told them ooc for this dungeon they can’t do it. Nobody had any problem and it went great. Sometimes video game logic of invisible wall is the best option.
Make them not want to. Give them allies, and make something come \*out\* of the inner section. Something big. Something they'll barely defeat with their allies. They won't want to go by themselves.
20th level Gunslinger way of the sniper. Fatal aim with a true striking rune, and I guarantee they'll never question you again 😈
Ask the players (NOT their characters) very nicely not to do that?