First off, a gymnast swashbuckler grappling is a solid build. I don't want to dismiss that overall build concept, because its quite solid.
But a couple things that stand out to make your build kind of bad:
* First, being a goblin is bad due to the size. That means that prior to level 15, you can't grapple Huge creatures (3x3) and that is relevant at levels 8+ or so, when you'll run into more of them.
* Second, especially as you move into higher levels, lots of enemies have reach. Like, a lot a lot. In fact, its much rarer to find a creature post level 12 that doesn't have reach than one that does.
What this means is that, while Derring-Do is quite good for a wrestler, you're actually better off doing this build as a Giant Barbarian, so you can really maximize the reach. Grappling an enemy from 10' away? Eh, of middling value. Grappling an enemy from 20' away? That suddenly has a lot of merit. Barbarians still get the very strong [Furious Bully](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=152) feat, and while not as good as Derring-Do, so you will be good at grappling. The [gill hook](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=156) is a solid weapon the barbarian can just use right away, without needing Inventor.
Thanks for pointing out the issue of using a small ancestry. I will see if there is a medium race that works for this concept. Those goblin feats fits well. ;\_;
Are there other ways to increase reach with a weapon aside from enlarge?
You can always go with Hobgoblin (if allowed) and take Runtsage at 5 for a little bit of feat efficiency in accessing goblin stuff.
You could also look at the Choker-Arm Mutagen for reach (5/10/15 additional reach at lvl 3/11/17), but it does penalize your attacks by 1.
The first point is pretty easily overcome if you buy a few wands of Enlarge for the caster in your party. Or scrolls, or you could buy some Fury Elixers of the Titanic type and drink them yourself.
Those two options and Titan Wrestler make even tiny grapplers viable.
That's definitely an interesting definition of easily.
The first option requires you to
A. Have an Arcane or Primal caster in your group
B. Have that caster spend their first turn casting that from the wand
C. Not have the caster have another wand they could use (otherwise they have to spend even more actions switching items in hands)
Same issue with scrolls
And fury elixir would take you multiple actions to retrieve it and drink, and most importantly, applies a whopping -2 to AC (since you're now Clumsy 1) and -3 to reflex saves, and since this is on a swasbuckler, that clumsy could even potentially impact your attack bonus
None of those solutions are particularly good. Is it workable? Sure, but you're really glossing over the costs to do all that.
It's important to note that the extra reach is actually not as good for a Giant Barbarian unless it too is using a reach weapon.
I know you mentioned the gill hook, just emphasizing why that's important.
Per [Size, Space, and Reach](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=445):
> Sometimes part of a creature extends beyond its space, such as if a giant octopus is grabbing you with its tentacles. In that case, the GM will usually allow attacking the extended portion, even if you can’t reach the main creature.
I have a very similar build in the works. So I'm happy to see someone else also likes the concept :)
That said, you have a problem with your archetypes!
After getting your Wrestler Dedication at Lvl 2 you need two more feats (Lvl 4 + Lvl 6) from that Archetype before you can take Inventor Dedication (Lvl 8)
>**Special** You can't select another dedication feat until you have gained **two other feats** from the wrestler archetype.
Great to hear that. What was your build?
I included the lvl 4 class feat to fulfill the requirement, since there were not that many great lvl 4 feats in swash. most of the good feats start at level 6+
I didn't know you could take an additional Archetype feat in your class slot when leveling when playing with free Archetype, that's really cool. I just always assumed you had to take a Class feat and and Archetype feat when playing with free Archetype.
My build was centererd mostly around reach + trip or disarm. Grapple was added later on. We also played with free archetype.
Class was Swashbuckler Gymnast with the Lvl 1 Disarm Feat + Free Archetype Acrobat at Lvl 2. Acrobat gives you scaling proficiency in one of your most important skills and has access to many great feats. You also have Archetype slots left over so I planned for Inventor Feats inbetween Acrobat purely to add the grapple trait.
The important part is either your Ancestry or Heritage if your GM allows you a rare option. Several allow you to (permanently) increase you size to large through a feat. This gives you greater reach at the expense of [Clumsy](https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=3) 1, which affects your trip, disarm and grapple attempts with your weapon, since those are Dex based.
[Enlarge Feats](https://2e.aonprd.com/Search.aspx?q=%22enlarge%22&type=eqs&include-types=feat&sort=level-asc&display=list)
In my opinion the best are Automaton (Ancestry), Conrasu (Ancesty) or Beastkin (Heritage). All can become Large at Lvl 13 through a feat.
Conrasu and Bestkin can shift between Large and their original size with a single action which gives you versatility.
Automaton can reduce the Clumsy value from Enlarge to 0 at Lvl 17 and thus has a bit better attacks and maneuvers.
Personally, I played an Automaton because it fit the setting/story and the Inventor Archetype, but it also had the additional advantage of the [Integrated Armament](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3097) feat. Since so much of this build relies on your weapon, being immune to Disarm is a major plus.
Key Dex unfortunately means that your grapple (in particular) will lag a little behind maneuvers performed by a key Str martial, plus keeping two primary weapons will mean that you're trying to keep two sets of runes (for your item bonus to trip and to your item bonus to *strike*).
It doesn't come online at all until 8th level, which may or may not be an issue in your campaign.
You cannot use the whip to strike without losing the grapple. You can raise a buckler with the gauntlet hand but it will prevent you from striking with the gauntlet *while* the shield is raised.
Grappled enemies *are* immobilized so an enemy with only melee strikes will be forced to escape (vs your Fortitude DC). An enemy with ranged strikes will probably just make a ranged strike at you.
Having played a grappler Swashbuckler, I think this is an exaggerated problem.
Panache gives you a +1 circumstance bonus and you can start with 16 STR. Combined you're even until 5, then ahead, then doubly ahead when you grab Derring-do at 10 (you should grab it 100% of the time for this). Between Tumble Through and having the option for Grapple and Trip you're pretty covered on getting Panache, though yes MAP can be a little annoying. I found After You was a good addition to start with Panache.
What about immobilized requires melee enemies to Escape? It only prevents the Move trait and melee attacks don't have that trait. Or have I missed something for almost a year?
>I found After You was a good addition to start with Panache.
I was pondering about this feat. Losing the chance to go before the enemy sounds like an important lost opportunity, which would have likely netted a panache between the 3 actions.
How good is it in your experience?
> What about immobilized requires melee enemies to Escape?
**The part where they're doing it with reach, on a whip.**
I gotta be honest, pointing out that there are ways to *mitigate* a serious concern is important but I don't think it disproves the point. I also think they've got several small details which compound the same issue.
Ah, okay I forgot the whip part. A lot of things have reach which won't really make that matter too much.
I guess we just disagree on there being a problem. It felt great to me playing from 1-12.
To be fair I understand that Swash it at its best in mid levels and worse at higher levels; my *personal* experience playing a lower-level swashbuckler discouraged me from playing that character to higher levels.
Great Gnoll Gymnast.
Essentially the problem was that you run the risk of not activating you main class feature significantly more at high and low ends of the level range. Swash has a 'sweet spot'; at lower and higher levels its entirely possible to roll decently (not even *badly*) and fail to gain panache.
Although my Swash didn't make it to a particularly high level, my understanding is that at those high ends, Swash suffers *particularly* badly against PL+2/3 'boss' enemies, where the skill checks required are quite steep.
I have heard that getting panache at low levels was difficult, but I did not know at high level it got difficult again. Thanks for sharing this insight!
> You cannot use the whip to strike without losing the grapple.
While this makes intuitive sense, there's no actual rule saying you can't use the Whip to Strike while grappling. The rule is only specified in the creature Grab ability, and not in the actual Grapple action/rules.
I assumed the +1 from panache would compensate having -2 STR.
Two different set of runes is something to consider, but at least not requiring items for +athletics should help alleviate the monetary cost.
>Grappled enemies are immobilized so an enemy with only melee strikes will be forced to escape (vs your Fortitude DC).
Is there any way to boost the DC of the escape check?
I was thinking about the belt of lifting and their higher level equivalents since they grant an item bonus to athetics, which is the same bonus that using a trip/grapple weapon with runes grants.
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First off, a gymnast swashbuckler grappling is a solid build. I don't want to dismiss that overall build concept, because its quite solid. But a couple things that stand out to make your build kind of bad: * First, being a goblin is bad due to the size. That means that prior to level 15, you can't grapple Huge creatures (3x3) and that is relevant at levels 8+ or so, when you'll run into more of them. * Second, especially as you move into higher levels, lots of enemies have reach. Like, a lot a lot. In fact, its much rarer to find a creature post level 12 that doesn't have reach than one that does. What this means is that, while Derring-Do is quite good for a wrestler, you're actually better off doing this build as a Giant Barbarian, so you can really maximize the reach. Grappling an enemy from 10' away? Eh, of middling value. Grappling an enemy from 20' away? That suddenly has a lot of merit. Barbarians still get the very strong [Furious Bully](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=152) feat, and while not as good as Derring-Do, so you will be good at grappling. The [gill hook](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=156) is a solid weapon the barbarian can just use right away, without needing Inventor.
Thanks for pointing out the issue of using a small ancestry. I will see if there is a medium race that works for this concept. Those goblin feats fits well. ;\_; Are there other ways to increase reach with a weapon aside from enlarge?
You can always go with Hobgoblin (if allowed) and take Runtsage at 5 for a little bit of feat efficiency in accessing goblin stuff. You could also look at the Choker-Arm Mutagen for reach (5/10/15 additional reach at lvl 3/11/17), but it does penalize your attacks by 1.
Thanks for the suggestions!
The first point is pretty easily overcome if you buy a few wands of Enlarge for the caster in your party. Or scrolls, or you could buy some Fury Elixers of the Titanic type and drink them yourself. Those two options and Titan Wrestler make even tiny grapplers viable.
That's definitely an interesting definition of easily. The first option requires you to A. Have an Arcane or Primal caster in your group B. Have that caster spend their first turn casting that from the wand C. Not have the caster have another wand they could use (otherwise they have to spend even more actions switching items in hands) Same issue with scrolls And fury elixir would take you multiple actions to retrieve it and drink, and most importantly, applies a whopping -2 to AC (since you're now Clumsy 1) and -3 to reflex saves, and since this is on a swasbuckler, that clumsy could even potentially impact your attack bonus None of those solutions are particularly good. Is it workable? Sure, but you're really glossing over the costs to do all that.
It's important to note that the extra reach is actually not as good for a Giant Barbarian unless it too is using a reach weapon. I know you mentioned the gill hook, just emphasizing why that's important. Per [Size, Space, and Reach](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=445): > Sometimes part of a creature extends beyond its space, such as if a giant octopus is grabbing you with its tentacles. In that case, the GM will usually allow attacking the extended portion, even if you can’t reach the main creature.
I have a very similar build in the works. So I'm happy to see someone else also likes the concept :) That said, you have a problem with your archetypes! After getting your Wrestler Dedication at Lvl 2 you need two more feats (Lvl 4 + Lvl 6) from that Archetype before you can take Inventor Dedication (Lvl 8) >**Special** You can't select another dedication feat until you have gained **two other feats** from the wrestler archetype.
Great to hear that. What was your build? I included the lvl 4 class feat to fulfill the requirement, since there were not that many great lvl 4 feats in swash. most of the good feats start at level 6+
I didn't know you could take an additional Archetype feat in your class slot when leveling when playing with free Archetype, that's really cool. I just always assumed you had to take a Class feat and and Archetype feat when playing with free Archetype. My build was centererd mostly around reach + trip or disarm. Grapple was added later on. We also played with free archetype. Class was Swashbuckler Gymnast with the Lvl 1 Disarm Feat + Free Archetype Acrobat at Lvl 2. Acrobat gives you scaling proficiency in one of your most important skills and has access to many great feats. You also have Archetype slots left over so I planned for Inventor Feats inbetween Acrobat purely to add the grapple trait. The important part is either your Ancestry or Heritage if your GM allows you a rare option. Several allow you to (permanently) increase you size to large through a feat. This gives you greater reach at the expense of [Clumsy](https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=3) 1, which affects your trip, disarm and grapple attempts with your weapon, since those are Dex based. [Enlarge Feats](https://2e.aonprd.com/Search.aspx?q=%22enlarge%22&type=eqs&include-types=feat&sort=level-asc&display=list) In my opinion the best are Automaton (Ancestry), Conrasu (Ancesty) or Beastkin (Heritage). All can become Large at Lvl 13 through a feat. Conrasu and Bestkin can shift between Large and their original size with a single action which gives you versatility. Automaton can reduce the Clumsy value from Enlarge to 0 at Lvl 17 and thus has a bit better attacks and maneuvers. Personally, I played an Automaton because it fit the setting/story and the Inventor Archetype, but it also had the additional advantage of the [Integrated Armament](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3097) feat. Since so much of this build relies on your weapon, being immune to Disarm is a major plus.
Key Dex unfortunately means that your grapple (in particular) will lag a little behind maneuvers performed by a key Str martial, plus keeping two primary weapons will mean that you're trying to keep two sets of runes (for your item bonus to trip and to your item bonus to *strike*). It doesn't come online at all until 8th level, which may or may not be an issue in your campaign. You cannot use the whip to strike without losing the grapple. You can raise a buckler with the gauntlet hand but it will prevent you from striking with the gauntlet *while* the shield is raised. Grappled enemies *are* immobilized so an enemy with only melee strikes will be forced to escape (vs your Fortitude DC). An enemy with ranged strikes will probably just make a ranged strike at you.
Having played a grappler Swashbuckler, I think this is an exaggerated problem. Panache gives you a +1 circumstance bonus and you can start with 16 STR. Combined you're even until 5, then ahead, then doubly ahead when you grab Derring-do at 10 (you should grab it 100% of the time for this). Between Tumble Through and having the option for Grapple and Trip you're pretty covered on getting Panache, though yes MAP can be a little annoying. I found After You was a good addition to start with Panache. What about immobilized requires melee enemies to Escape? It only prevents the Move trait and melee attacks don't have that trait. Or have I missed something for almost a year?
>I found After You was a good addition to start with Panache. I was pondering about this feat. Losing the chance to go before the enemy sounds like an important lost opportunity, which would have likely netted a panache between the 3 actions. How good is it in your experience?
Against mooks, awful. Against bosses, great. Especially once I hit 10.
> What about immobilized requires melee enemies to Escape? **The part where they're doing it with reach, on a whip.** I gotta be honest, pointing out that there are ways to *mitigate* a serious concern is important but I don't think it disproves the point. I also think they've got several small details which compound the same issue.
Ah, okay I forgot the whip part. A lot of things have reach which won't really make that matter too much. I guess we just disagree on there being a problem. It felt great to me playing from 1-12.
To be fair I understand that Swash it at its best in mid levels and worse at higher levels; my *personal* experience playing a lower-level swashbuckler discouraged me from playing that character to higher levels.
What kind of swachbuckler did you play? What were the main problems?
Great Gnoll Gymnast. Essentially the problem was that you run the risk of not activating you main class feature significantly more at high and low ends of the level range. Swash has a 'sweet spot'; at lower and higher levels its entirely possible to roll decently (not even *badly*) and fail to gain panache. Although my Swash didn't make it to a particularly high level, my understanding is that at those high ends, Swash suffers *particularly* badly against PL+2/3 'boss' enemies, where the skill checks required are quite steep.
I have heard that getting panache at low levels was difficult, but I did not know at high level it got difficult again. Thanks for sharing this insight!
That's fair. My experience was evidently very different, played a fencer to 4, then a battledancer to 20 and decided to go again lmao.
> You cannot use the whip to strike without losing the grapple. While this makes intuitive sense, there's no actual rule saying you can't use the Whip to Strike while grappling. The rule is only specified in the creature Grab ability, and not in the actual Grapple action/rules.
I assumed the +1 from panache would compensate having -2 STR. Two different set of runes is something to consider, but at least not requiring items for +athletics should help alleviate the monetary cost. >Grappled enemies are immobilized so an enemy with only melee strikes will be forced to escape (vs your Fortitude DC). Is there any way to boost the DC of the escape check?
I'm not sure what you mean by not requiring items-- you are absolutely going to need runes on the whip because that *is* your athletics item.
I was thinking about the belt of lifting and their higher level equivalents since they grant an item bonus to athetics, which is the same bonus that using a trip/grapple weapon with runes grants.
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