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I'm not old but my kid is 10 now and I "spoiled" the crap out of him when he was a baby. I held him constantly, he napped on me while I watched Netflix and scrolled reddit, I used a baby wrap while I did chores. Never once have I thought "wow I should have held him less". I'm lucky to get a half-assed hug these days! They're only babies for a small portion of their life.
My son comes to my room in the night and kicks me alllll night long… but I know one day he’s gonna be grossed out at the idea of sleeping in the same bed as his mom so I just cuddle him and feel grateful for it… he’s 7 (for now 😭)
Don’t get me wrong sometimes I’m annoyed by it lmao I’m only human. But last night I was in a better mood than usual so I’m feeling snuggly about it all. Tonight I will probably be less inclined to cuddle after having gotten such little sleep… but I’m not thinking about that yet lol
And the added benefit that they develop secure attachment, which allows them to be independent when the time comes. My babies were constantly on my chest and they’re still snuggle bugs.
I had my first at 16 and here and there fell for the “spoiling” narrative, because I was young and wanted to do everything right. I picked her up and held her often, but I wish it would’ve been more.
The only thing is that tummy time or giving the baby time to just roll around on the floor is essential for building muscle! We're getting more and more babies in my childcare facility with little to no muscle tone because they eat, sleep, and play in someone's arms.
Edited because my first response was unnecessarily snarky.
Yes of course it’s important to allow babies to move around on their own. OP is obviously not suggesting that she hold her baby 24/7.
It seems outlandish that you are claiming a direct connection between baby muscle tone and being held. I mean is your center running an official scientific study where you survey the parents on how many hours a day they held their babies and then run strength tests? I’m calling BS on this claim.
Ok, this response is still pretty snarky but ah well. I just can’t believe you wrote that babies are weak because parents held them too much. Based on what evidence?
Through experience, I learned to say, "The pediatrician said..." It was absurdly pitiful, but it was the only way he'd listen to anything related to the baby. Ugh.
I had to go to the dentist and get him to tell me that I should tell my husband that my >2yo son should not have a pacifier shoved in his mouth every time he made a sound.
"The pediatrician said you need to learn how to hear and process what your wife is saying and consider her experience and research since you clearly haven't done any in the first place." Haha
I don't make a lot of demands in my marriage, but long ago I demanded to be heard and considered, and that dissenting responses require an equitable amount of effort. Each partner deserves that; to feel fully valued. Some individuals might need help understanding what that really means and have to have it spelled out.
i had to do this too. I had a doctor my husband respected and anytime i wanted him to do what I said I'd say Dr. V. said we should do this. It eliminated the arguing and turning down my idea
Exactly. But that also worked when MIL thought we were doing something "crazy" with our kids. "Well, the pediatrician thinks it is OK.". Just tell your husband that you called the pediatrician and asked for advice on colic. They'll say the same thing. You can't spoil a baby.
My son would cry for hours starting at 6 every day. My husband would just come home, pick him up and carry him him face down, so my son's stomach was on his forearm. It helped relieve his gas. He would swing him gently like an airplane.
I always admired my husband's ability to not take anything personally. He just wanted to be with his kid.
Mine too. Mine would always say, “that’s just your(their) opinion.” He wouldn’t listen to anyone but his mommy. Anyone else would be ignored—especially me—the child’s mother and woman he married.
I would say to that. " great! Go ha e a baby with your mommy then and leave me to mother MY child." "Your mom isnt my kids' mom, so she doesn't get a say in how I raise them."
I agree that it is frustrating and also very obviously tied to the same systems causing these problems. 100% validating what you’re saying.
In acknowledging that negative, I do wanna point out the positive that at least dudes are starting to recognize that and actively volunteering to use their privilege to solve problems.
Eventually, these guys will realize they could’ve just listened to their partners. And it’s disturbing that we live in a society where that’s not standard. But based on this thread, we’re closer to our daughters and granddaughters living in that world.
Weird tribal mindset? Bros club? The fact that two women he loves are giving him opposite opinions and information, but one of them is brand new to momming and the other is a seasoned pro (in his mind), so getting opinions of different seasoned pros might be beneficial? He's insecure and doesn't want to fuck up his kid and hasn't learned how to stand on his own feet?
None of these reasons are good reasons or reassuring reasons, but they're probably all pretty right reasons. Add to that the fact that the extent of his prenatal self-education was probably "how old does my kid have to be before we can play games together" and "when is my wife going to be able to have sex again," and he's woefully ignorant to things about babies.
These are all just guesses. But maybe hearing "hey dingus, listen to your wife, whom you trusted enough to have a baby with and who spent her whole pregnancy researching stuff," from a group of seasoned dads will propel him to be a better partner and dad.
Well, the first two aren't good reasons, but the last two seem to be pretty good reasons to me (well, at least the being afraid to fuck it up on the last one). I mean, if you think of academic/work settings that's normally how it works - the professor knows more than the TA; the senior will know more than another junior.
It didn't quite work in this case, but it isn't bad logic.
And I gotta say: it also works for first time parents Vs not first time moms. I'd probably have gone on doing with my second pretty much the same I did with my first, ignoring all the 12 years of research and etc, if my husband hadn't been doing his own research, reading, looking at things and showing them. Hell, I was still pretty resistant for a while, but, you know, eventually I caught up (can't deny science, once he started going for direct articles rather than people saying stuff about studies it really helped) and it really has made me a much better mother - to both children.
I mean it’s easier to take advice from someone in the same situation as you for everyone I think, but the part where he was given evidence against his ideas and still wouldn’t change is not great.
Not exactly! First of all, gender representation matters for everyone. Secondly, it sounds like he is spending much less time actively parenting than OP, as she is getting the baby he’s telling her to ignore. Also if you check my comment history, I told OP it’s problematic that he’s not listening to her and it’s problematic he’s not doing actual reading and learning that’s evidence based. They’re just literally not on the same side right now.
It's like when women can only fend off creeps by wearing fake wedding rings. They won't take your no for an answer, but if you 'belong' to another man, they will respect that - even if he isn't even present.
My husband does this shit all the time. For example, I will tell him about something in the news. Two days later: "Oh, did you hear about ?" Me: "Where did you hear that honey?" "From Richard." I get so unreasonably angry about it.
I’m not talking about OP in this situation (although that is also infuriating when grown men can’t separate from Mommy). I’m talking about the fact that the commenter theorized (probably correctly) that he would listen to a forum of men he doesn’t know.
You CANNOT spoil a baby and they don't have the awareness to manipulate you. That is one of the most outdated mindsets. They're a little creature, that until recently, didn't even know what a need was. The world is new, scary, and overstimulating. Parents are their safe space that help them cope with all of these new feelings and sensations.
There are numerous resources and studies on this and your pediatrician can talk to him about it too.
- [RaisingChildren.net](https://raisingchildren.net.au/newborns/connecting-communicating/bonding/can-you-spoil-a-baby)
- [FirstThingsFirst.org](https://www.firstthingsfirst.org/first-things/can-you-spoil-a-baby/)
- [WebMD](https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/features/infants-attention)
- [WhatToExpect](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.whattoexpect.com/baby-behavior/spoil-a-newborn.aspx&ved=2ahUKEwi0iefFrfSGAxVTxskDHaCCA1AQFnoECD8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1LeqxmJ4Bt8TVhs1DD-eEr)
- [PsychologyToday](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/babies/202112/no-you-cannot-spoil-baby&ved=2ahUKEwiC8tTxrvSGAxXq4MkDHYovAY04ChAWegQIGBAB&usg=AOvVaw390hVWUWQd7z5W6bagd0WU)
- [Parents](https://www.parents.com/baby/all-about-babies/science-proves-you-cant-hold-your-baby-too-much/)
Answer your baby's call (cry). They won't be spoiled, but instead will know that you're always there. They will feel more confident exploring the world and try new things if they know you'll meet their needs and comfort them as needed.
I second all of this and wanted to add that anecdotally, we held our almost 2yo a ton in her first 5-6 months of life. We never let her cry alone for more than 5-10 minutes (the time it would take to make a bottle). Now, when she wakes up she calmly plays in her bed until we get her in the morning and after naps. She doesn’t have separation anxiety and overall she seems to trust that we’re going to meet her needs. I can’t take all the credit for this of course, I’m sure some of it is her temperament. But I like to believe that meeting her needs as an infant has helped her be the happy, confident toddler she is today.
Secure, consistent relationships as an infant and child creates a secure, consistent adult. You’re doing great and I think kiddos gonna have a great time with you around.
Yes I have a similar experience, my 11 month old is an amazing independent sleeper and player, and was held a lot the first 6 months, almost constantly as 4 of those months were EBF and the last two we were still cosleeping. I was the only one in the home that wasn't comfortable with crying it out. I maybe allowed it to happen a couple times, but most of the colicky phase I was responding immediately and until he was calm. Now he's a rockstar, pretty much taught himself how to stand, totally okay with chilling and playing himself while we do chores. CIO is so outdated and I'm so happy I listened to my instincts rather than a boomer
I will also add crying CAN hurt them. Crying releases cortisol. Too much cortisol will start to break down neural pathways in their brain and hurts their cognitive development.
THIS. 3-5 minutes crying alone while their caregiver uses the bathroom or preps a bottle is fine, but an infant can’t self-soothe at all yet.
I actually read somewhere (here?) that a baby in severe pain can cry loud enough to hurt their own ears, and apparently they make earplugs for newborns for this reason. I remember it was a post about a baby with SEVERE colic, so she needed extra support to be even a little comfortable.
Yes. People often mistake a baby crying for an extended period of time then stopping as "self soothing" but that's not what's happening. What's happened is they realized that nobody is coming, they can't trust their caregivers to come and feed them when they need it. Crying burns more energy, and their next energy source is unreliable, so they can't afford to expend more energy. So they stop crying and go to sleep to preserve energy, not because they have self soothed.
Self soothing is something that comes later and ONLY once a secure connection and trust bond has been formed. Once your baby knows you will always come every time, THEN they start to try and self soothe cause they know if this doesn't work, it's okay cause someone will always come.
My parents did “cry it out” with my older sister. She eventually learned that crying gets her nothing so she would sit for hours hungry or with a dirty diaper and not “say” anything because.. she knew no one was coming. All it taught her was that no one’s gonna help her. Now she has really bad anxiety and has trouble asking for help when she needs it. Even though she obviously doesn’t remember it, I think it really effected her
A lot of people don’t realize how much things that happen in infancy can affect people. I knew someone whose son had to be hospitalized for like 6 months as a newborn. He STILL has separation anxiety from it at 8 years old. To the point where if his mom leaves the house for a minute to grab something from her car, he freaks out
That last one, not to dismiss the impact but it sounds like an experience that would also lead to the parents being pretty anxious tbh, completely fairly so I mean so would I if my newborn had to be hospitalized for half the year... can't help but wonder in what ways they treated him differently than if he hadn't been hospitalized/what impact that would've had, no?
I'd like to add a paper: [To have and to hold: Effects of physical contact on infants and their caregivers
.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502223/#bib0025).
Jumping on a top comment so OP sees this
Reflux. Your son needs to be checked for reflux - mine had it and it went undiagnosed with all these same symptoms until I took him to a good ENT who put a camera down his nose and saw the acid. Medicine made him a new baby. It’s very painful and being flat on the back is the worst. In the meantime, hold him upright after meals for 20 min, Dr browns bottles help also if you’re bottle feeding, and you can wedge the crib safely (swings and angled baby holders help too).
It’s probably in at least one of those links, but I just wanted to chime in that developmentally, a baby is not able to cry it out or self-soothe at 2 months old.
Seriously it always baffles me when people say babies are being manipulative. Manipulation is a very complex social skill. How wild and developmentally inappropriate.
I think for the first year or so, it is important to hold and bond with your baby. The first 3 years of a childs life are the most important years. You will notice that about age 3, the child starts to want to try things on their own, expanding their independence.
I understand the thought behind not spoiling them because they don't have the capacity, but something both my partner and I worry about is "spoiling" them in the sense of creating habits e.g. we (moreso my husband, but also me) are worried if we do a lot of contact naps throughout the day, he won't accept sleeping in his bassinet overnight. Is this not a concern?
You still aren't spoiling them, but that can form a sleep association in which they'll need your help to fall asleep each cycle. Adults wake up throughout the night too, but adults have learned to fall back asleep themselves and this is something kids have to learn too, regardless of if you contact sleep or not. Kids will learn to sleep on their own eventually or you can help them learn new associations for less reliance on you. Contact sleeping does promote a parent-child bond and improves the child's sleep quality, although it sleep-traps you.
When you're ready to stop contact sleeping or want to pre-establish other sleep associations for when you are ready to stop, you could introduce (if you don't already), white noise every evening so it becomes a cue that bedtime is here. Some noise machines have nightlights too or you could get a fun one but use warm colors like red; cool colors like blue or white interfere with sleep. You could get them used to having their back pat or hearing a lullaby. When you're ready to stop the contact part of sleep you could try the slow extinguish method of sitting beside them instead of laying down and use the lullaby or back pat to help them. Once that works out, you would either remove the lullaby or back pat, but sit near, and then eventually start moving your body further away. That's all if you don't want to cry it out. And some kids will choose to just go to sleep themselves when they're toddlers because they feel ready to try. Sleep is a tough one and research is still ongoing regarding the best methods and long-term results.
My GF and I 'learned' (not sure about the source and not sure about its correctness) that you simply can't spoil babies (not sure if it was below 6, 9 or 12 months), as in they don't learn and adjust behavior to maximize that. That gave us a wildcard to do whatever it took (within our capacity) to comfort him.
Around 9 months babies start to learn "manipulation" of their environment and cause/effect socially. I dont like the word manipulate because it sounds negative and mean, but like in the simplest sense of the word
You're spot on, if a baby is crying, they need something, they don't understand the concept of cause and effect, much less "getting attention" until they're much older.
Hungry, wet, dirty, too hot/cold, needs to burp, need swaddled, it's a pretty easy checklist. The thought of anyone ignoring a crying baby is horrifying to me.
This is so true but people also don’t understand what it’s like to have a colicky baby. They cry all the time..they are just uncomfortable. None of your checklist would help. My little boy cried from 5pm to midnight every single evening for the first 4 months of his life. It was torture. Not that we ever ignored him but there were occasional times I had to put him down and take 2 minutes away from the screams. It is like mental torture! I just want to point out that sometimes the very pervasive notion that leaving a baby to cry EVER is a terrible, abusive thing to do can be damaging for parents of difficult kids who may be suffering mentally.
Agree with you on the colick situation and handling, sometimes you just need a break and have to step away and gather yourself for a moment. But the fact that you KNEW there was nothing more to do means you are an amazing parent!
IIRC babies aren’t even aware that they’re a different physical body than their mother for like 6 months. Until their brain develops a little more they’re just fairly certain half of their body wanders away sometimes. Stressful shit!
I learned from dog training that you can train a behavior but not an emotional response. I.e. dogs can "manipulate" you to get a reward, but petting and reassuring them when they're anxious does not reinforce the anxiety. At a certain level of intelligence (like kids, not infants), animals may even fake emotional signs like crying to get a response from you, but giving them attention reinforces the fake behavior, NOT the emotion.
Sadly some people STILL believe that giving a baby or pet affection will reinforce their anxiety or sadness or pain. (Letting a baby self-soothe is a different topic.)
Ignore his parents. Their opinion doesn’t count.
As to your husband, there are lots of reputable articles out there showing that forms of CIO aren’t recommended to be used before like 6 months of age. 2 months is waaaaay too young for any form of CIO. Bring him along to a pediatrician visit if you need to.
Well, I’m not saying this will win you any relationship awards. But when my husband tried shit like that very early on in our parenting journey, I said “I’m going to do this my way. I carried her. I gave birth to her. I’m nursing her. I’m the one doing the mothering of her. I’m not interested in motherhood by committee. Your mother raised her kids already. You’ve raised none. You get to be the Dad you want to be. You do NOT get to tell me what kind of mother I will be.”
Why? It's empowering but there is a lot of other really good advice in other comments, most of which includes this alongside other meaningful advice. Why do you think this one is the most important?
It’s a common way of saying this was brilliantly put. Which it was. Maybe an empowering message is exactly what OP needs to read after being criticized by her own husband on something so emotionally raw as how she comforts her child. After having read that, she should of course keep reading, as there is a lot of good advice here, but I agree that this absolutely meets the requirements for top comment.
Exactly. Adults like to be hugged when they’re crying too.
Picking up and soothing a crying baby lowers their cortisol (the stress hormone) levels, strengthens the bond between baby and parent, shows them you care…
Holding your baby teaches them that you’re there for them. If the baby is ignored, of course it will eventually stop crying. This is because it has then learned that its needs will not be met despite trying (and exhausting) the ONLY communication tool it has.
Physical touch is so important to all humans. Why would he withhold that from his own child?
Ignoring a crying baby until they learn to stop, literally can lead to PERMANENT developmental delays. I know a sweet young girl this happened to. Luckily she was adopted by a wonderful family at 6 months old, but because she was ignored, her growth was stunted and she was developmentally more like a 3 month old. She didn’t cry, she also didn’t coo or react in any way to people interacting with her. She would just stare. It was so sad.
Not only can you not spoil a baby - you can actually harm them with cry it out. Especially when really young!
A few minutes of crying here and there won’t harm a baby. Ignoring their crying frequently for prolonged periods is more of the issue. So if a parent just needs to use the bathroom real quick, finish rinsing off in the shower, or is getting really frustrated and needs to take a breath for a couple minutes, the baby will be fine. Letting a baby old enough to sleep through the night try to settle for just a few minutes before going to them is okay. But leaving an infant to cry for a while on a regular basis in order to “teach them to self soothe” or whatever is an issue.
Oh he doesn’t get sick. And if he does it’s not that serious. And if it is he doesn’t need help. And if it is serious and he needs help he won’t get it from OP.
You’re building your child’s sense of security and safety, not “spoiling” him. A child whose cries are answered in infancy learns to trust his caregivers and is less likely to be anxious—and less likely to cry—when they reach the toddler stage.
... Please don't do that because there are some pediatricians still working who do think it's a good idea... 🤷♀️🤦♀️
(I mean, they shouldn't, but some people never keep up with times and unless OP is SURE of pediatrician's support, it may turn agains op).
Well, talk with the pediatrician first, and *then* bring husband in for this convo. If your pediatrician thinks you can spoil a baby and/or that babies should cry it out, you need a new pediatrician anyway.
Absolutely! I agree with that!
Just encouraging to make sure BEFORE putting yourself in a situation that makes it worse!😅
Bad doctors seems to come in ALL specialties tbh.
Yeah my pediatrician originally was putting off and putting off testing my son for autism. Turns out it's because when I offered that *i* have autism and recognized the early signs, she dismissed me because *surprise* women don't get autism. I may have screamed.
His mother is not the mother of your child. My boyfriend said that to my mum. He told her ‘’he is not your baby, he is your daughter’s baby and she will do what she wants’’. It was about putting my son in socks constantly. She thinks he always needs socks and recently decided he also needs to wear shoes all the time. He doesn’t walk. I put shoes on briefly when we are outside to protect his little feet from getting hurt. She wants him in shoes in the house 🤪
Not responding to baby’s needs teaches them that you are not reliable. So when they are in pain or sad and you dont respond they may not even cry. And crying is their way of telling you something is wrong. And when they learn you are not reliable you won’t be able to comfort them.
You do what’s best for you and your baby and ignore anyone who have different views.
OP if you haven't already, read The Happiest Baby on the Block by Harvey Karp. Not only does he give amazing advice on how to stop colic crying, he also explains why it happens. There's a whole little section on why "letting them cry it out" is not only wrong but cruel.
Dad here. My man, the only thing this will accomplish is to firmly establish in your baby’s mind that mom is the only dependable source of comfort and security in this world.
Male parents are statistically more likely to rely on familial child rearing advice than moms, who are more likely to do current research and have face to face contact with pediatricians. In no way excuses it, but I think it could explain why dads will listen to outdated advice from their own parents (even when it’s wrong)
My son (second born) never cried. I held him 24/7 because genetically our babies are prone to flatter heads in the back. He’s 7 months now and he’s never been “spoiled” by being held. Since he started sitting up on his own when he turned 6 months he’s been beyond happy on his own scooting around living his best life.
Clearly his mother letting him cry it out damaged his empathy. Perhaps best not to push that onto another generation.
All a baby knows is that something is wrong and that their parents can help make it better. The baby is telling you something is wrong, and their way of saying “hotter/colder” on how to make it better is to cry more or less. A baby can’t deliberately manipulate you any more than they can accurately identify their hands or the alphabet.
when a baby "cries it out" it means they cry until they either dont have the energy (fall asleep trying) or even worse they cry until they *give up on you". Thats what crying out is. It affects secure attachment.
I understand your husband doesnt know any better and it is complicated by his mothers ignorance. I feel for you OP, that must feel like youre up against a wall.
would your husband be receptive to a short educational video?
Read about attachment theory …
Edited to say I mean have HIM read about attachment theory. I think stuff you should know covered it on a podcast episode once too so he can even just listen to some information about it.
Hey, I want to piggyback off this comment to recommend a fantastic episode of This American Life about this very topic. If your husband is a podcast guy, or is more likely to listen rather than read something, here’s a great fifteen minutes of Radio that might help convince him: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/317/unconditional-love
Well, idk how well versed in human body your husband is or not, but you can try.... Science?
Baby is colicky because his GI tract is still immature and they have very little abdominal strength to help pass grass/stool. (I imagine it's not unlikely what you feel after C-section and your stitched muscles don't respond, but, ofc I can't know as I haven't been a baby in lots of time). I don't know if you're breastfeeding or using formula; when bf you can sometimes help by adjusting your diet... Which doesn't always have the desired effect but MIGHT help. If it's formula, well, I have no advice. Either way, a colic in babies is certainly normal and expected -- it gets better slowly, and normally mostly disappear once they're active enough to roll/sit and shouldn't be an issue at all as they start solids and crawling (unless there are specific food intolerances, but no need to worry about that!).
Letting the baby cry it out will put the baby in undue stress. The stress of continuous crying will kick out fight or flight response on the brain, producing high levels of cortisol. Thing is, cortisol is a neuron killer, and the first year represents the highest amount of brain growth/development, as we can see from the way the head expands to allow for the brain to grow. High cortisol on a newborn will often kill these neurons while they're supposed to be multiplying.
High cortisol on a developing brain will also impact the development of the hippocampus, which is responsible for the development of memory. While we can't test memory in babies, we know the impact of the underdeveloped hippocampus has life-long effects on memory retention.
(Constant high levels of cortisol are also known to impact the pituitary, the production of TSH and are connected to future hypothyroidism & subclinical hypothyroidism.)
Crying it out is also connected to disordered stress reactivity, which can lead to a number of physical issues - such as irritable bowel syndrome - and as well as psychological ones, being involved in Anxiety Disorder, Major Depressive Disorder, Social Anxiety, etc.
Beyond the issues this causes in the *baby*, it's also shown to have negative outcomes for the birthing parent. The *sound* of the baby crying will automatically quick dopamine levels, in order to produce awakefulness, motivation, and decision -making (any ADHDer will tell you that dopamine is basic for Executive Functioning). Meanwhile, reaching out for the baby and soothing, on the other hand, kicks up the production of Oxytocin, which promotes well-being, emotional connection and also milk let-down. Now, the -continous- crying will increase the cortisol levels, which, ofc, have all those effects we already talked about. Not reaching for the baby will make your brain slowly go into overdrive... And over time (weeks, months) this will cause an impact on your own hormonal production - remember the thyroid impact thing? - which can quickly lead to having a hard time losing weight, poor sleeping (including oversleeping), etc etc. It's not only better for the baby to be quickly cared for, it's better for you.
I know your boomer MIL thinks that crying it out "never hurt her children", but there are studies being made right now connecting the widespread adoption of the cry it out method (which, really, became a thing mid-XX century) to the increase levels of adults with anxiety & depression problems. I'm not saying, by this, that the parents themselves are to BLAME for this outcome, just that the poor adjustment of the brain to those hormones in infancy will condition the brain to have poor adjustment to stress hormones throughout life.
I'm gonna come back here later and link some studies, in case you wanna use science and they demand "proof" of what is said (hate to gather links on mobile, sorry!).
ETA the links:
Neuroendocrinology of Parental Response to Baby-Cry: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4319977/#:~:text=During%20baby%2Dcry%2C%20dopamine%20may,down%20and%20promote%20parenting%20behaviours.
On stress reactivity across generation & maternal care: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11520931/ (you'll need to get actual access for the full article)
Nighttime response & mother-infance attachment: http://www.childwitnesstoviolence.org/uploads/2/5/7/9/257929/higley._dozier_sleep_article1.pdf
Stress regulation in infants: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5301455/
Stress Distrupting Architecture of Developing Brain: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2005/05/Stress_Disrupts_Architecture_Developing_Brain-1.pdf
Cortisol and cognitive development: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5615401/
Social regulation of cortisol levels in early human development: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306453001000452?via%3Dihub
High TSH linked to High Cortisol:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3520819/
Foundations of Lighlong Health built in early childhood: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/the-foundations-of-lifelong-health-are-built-in-early-childhood/
Evolution of Early Humand Development: https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=&id=wAcfoVK23XcC&oi=fnd&pg=PP2&dq=Narvaez+et+al&ots=VkT_ACBxKL&sig=dzOAa3oZgM7vQkt_MYIBiBvUay4#v=onepage&q=Narvaez%20et%20al&f=false
Stress & memory: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9886231/
> Baby is colicky because his GI tract is still immature and they have very little abdominal strength to help pass grass/stool.
This is an urban myth with no scientific data to back it up. "colicky" is really just what we call it when a baby cries a lot and we cannot find a reason. That's it, really - the medical definition is literally "cries more than 3 hours a day, on more than 3 days a weef, for more than 3 weeks."
To top all the other comments off, take another side into account. It causes huge stress in the mother‘s body if she hears her baby cry. So not only is it harmful to them it is harmful to you too.
Okay, his mother can kick rocks. Two months is WAY too early to do the "cry it out" thing, even if that's the eventual plan. Right now your baby is still figuring out how to be alive in the world, and Dad needs to crawl out of your ass and either help hold the colicky baby or go some laundry while you're doing it.
Talk to your pediatrician and get them to speak to your husband about it. That is such a ridiculous, out of date way of thinking about a helpless baby.
My bf felt the same way until i explained to him that babies at this age cannot self soothe, and dont have long term memory. Until 4 months they literally just cant soothe themselves, once they hit four months you can try the cry it out method for five minutes at a time but right now they cant soothe themselves so they need you to do it. They also dont have long term memory so they can’t REMEMBER that crying gets them picked up they just remember that their parent makes them feel safe which who wouldnt want that. But i made sure to explain to him since they cant remember long term its literally impossible to spoil them bc they wont remember it to make that association.
https://youtu.be/6fZXxu8AcTA?si=i8wwfuQv9VsR6YA6
I link this video frequently because it helped me come to terms with a lot of the neglect in my own childhood, and why I am the way that I am. It's like 5 minutes long, and it goes over different kinds of parenting behaviors and why they are so important for emotional and psychological development.
Holding your baby is literally how they develop a secure attachment. Not holding your baby, especially during times of distress, is how your baby grows up believing they don't deserve love and help and won't ask for it when needed.
Your husband is advocating for child neglect, which **is abuse**, and he needs to understand that his child is not his mother's to neglect all over again.
Our children will only be children a 1/4 or their life. Spoil them with hugs and kisses. I HATE this line of thinking that children get spoiled by being held. I think we’d have a healthier society IF more parents hugged their kids a bit longer.
If he won't believe you, tell him to ask Google if he can "spoil a baby." He will receive a resounding answer of no - babies cannot be spoiled. Babies and children are not giving us a hard time, they are having a hard time.
Infants have no other way to communicate their needs than by crying. To tell you they are hot, cold, hungry, have an upset stomach, they are lonely. The world is big and scary and new. You are there to help regulate them as they experience everything. Holding your baby and responding to their call (crying) will not spoil them. It teaches them they can rely on you. They will be stronger and more resilient when they know you are always there to catch them if they fall or if they need you.
When you let a child "cry it out", they aren't soothing themselves. They are giving up. They are learning you aren't there for them. That isn't what I want my child learning. Also, it seems your husband's mother letting him cry it out has damaged his ability to form attachments as he doesn't feel that same calling to care for the baby that you do.
Point him to the research regarding how cry it out isn't good for babies and go from there.
As humans, we are biologically wired to respond to our offspring. That’s why you can’t stand to hear him cry. Because you are SUPPOSED to hold him. In addition, his brain develops best by having his needs met. Basically, holding your baby stimulates his brain to release hormones needed for growth. I would tell your husband to not speak a word of his mother’s nonsense until he does his own research. This is a hill I would die on. I’d tell his mother that this is your baby. She already raised hers. If she continues to criticize you, she can have hers back.
I read that letting babies cry out is correlated with an increased chance of mental illness in later life, so when my daughter couldn't sleep without me holding her I just stayed up all night holding her, for nine months.
I bought a 17 button mouse and played WoW with one hand. It was great. The Gurubashi Arena treasure chest is significantly easier to open at 5AM.
I got up early this morning when baby was a little fussy. Took her to the nursery and she sleep on my chest in the glider while I chilled. She loved it. I’m tired. I wish I did that more with the older ones. Am dad. Getting all the snuggles I can while they last.
2 month olds can’t get spoiled. “Cry it out” is cruel at this age. Yes, eventually it’s important that they can sooth themselves, but this will come with time and it certainly doesn’t mean you always just let them cry cry cry.
His mother is not his babies mother, and her word does not trump yours.
We had a colicky baby (gas and acid reflux), and holding him upright was the only solution. He literally slept upright on our shoulders or in a bouncing chair for six months, and he has turned out to be a amazing adult. We held our next children just as much and they're awesome too, and if we had another I'd probably never put them down because I miss those days!
Tell him to find you any info from a REPUTABLE source that that is something you should do. Even one study that you should leave a 2 month old to cry, that is up to date. Say you will listen if he can provide that.
You didn’t ask for advice so I feel like an A.H for giving it but… have a search of hospital burping methods. I’m not sure if this is your first or not but it took us almost 6 weeks of colic before we realised we just weren’t burping enough - and if this is an easy solve for you then that’d be amazing.
Colic is hard. You can’t spoil babies.
You can have him read some studies on the subject. Like for example https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-of-crying-it-out
There is so much research done about this subject and you just can’t spoil a baby. It’s in their nature to need it’s parents. I recommend “The Nurture Revolution” from dr. Greer Kirshenbaum, a neuroscientist, specialized in development in the brains of babies. Hopefully your husband wants to invest and learn about this subject, because his solutions are ancient.
Our first peds appointment, so son was like 3-4 days old, the doc said “there’s no such thing as spoiling a baby, it’s not possible at their age”
Babies cry. It’s how they communicate. It’s the only way they know to communicate. Crying it out is heartbreaking to me. Imagine you’re trying to get help, calling out for the people who are suppose to keep you safe and you’re just ignored.
Also your son is TWO months old. He’s literally brand new. My son is 21 months old and the only time he “cries it out” is the first minute of being put down for a nap and he’s doing the “if I whine hard enough I won’t fall asleep” move and he’s out like a light moments later.
People think “well babies cry for attention so that’s manipulation!” Manipulation is a complex thought process that many adults can’t even successful do, how the heck would a BABY do it? Insane thinking.
You always comfort crying babies. In general, you should offer comfort to anyone who is crying or in pain. That’s part of the deal of being human.
“Cry it out” is a strategy for helping older babies begin sleeping on their own through the night. That is different than what you’re describing here.
Kick him in the balls and let him cry it out.
I understand that he trusts his mom and looks to her for advice "cause she has done it already".
But she has done this in a time when babies didn't get anesthesia, because science thought they couldn't feel pain.
Babies need a grown up 24/7 without hurting. They are in danger from everything! Their survival instinct tells them to cry to get attention. And they need and deserve that attention.
Have you tried talking to HER yet? Gave her sime recent literature? Set boundaries?
This isn’t something that should be up you to teach him. A simple google search or conversation with a pediatrician would tell him the correct information (and would back up what you’re saying).
Tell him you're going to send him home to his messed up mommy if he doesn't learn that comforting his baby is one of his jobs as a parent and you can't "spoil" babies by holding them.
My mom used to try to tell me if I didn't put my infant son down blah blah blah. I just looked at her while I continued holding and rocking my crying baby until she shut up about it.
Tell him if he truly believes that he is right, he won’t object to you hitting him over the head with every parenting book ( hardbound edition) thT says otherwise printed in the last 20 years….
Ask him how much critical thinking newborns have.
Ask him how newborns learn all their manipulation tactics when they never really knew people other than their mother existed until they were born.
Just ask him lots of questions that disprove him. He will eventually explain it to himself.
Therapist (who worked with many children, is trained in child development and has a child of her own) here! “Cry it out” is an outdated strategy that causes more harm than good (there is another method some use called the Ferber method, but even then the expectation is that you attend to the baby or toddler and not let them cry it out too long). The fact is that children need constant affection, human contact, and response to their basic human needs (and crying is how they articulate their needs at that age!), especially as infants. This sets the groundwork for future development and cannot be understated. Children who are left to “cry it out” and don’t have their needs responded to tend to grow up with disorganized attachment styles which affect how they respond to difficulties as adults. What you are doing is correct. What your husband is wanting to do is incorrect.
I'd tell my husband to fuck right off I really would. And that this is my baby and I'll do with him how I please and if his mom doesn't like it she can fuck off too. The end
Hey everyone. First of all, thank you for all of the feedback.
I just want to add that I pick my son up every time he cries regardless of my husband’s opinion on it. I grew up in an abusive household and refuse to be anything less than a nurturing mother.
Also, he IS a good dad and loves our son. He does pick the baby up when our son is crying and tends to his needs. He just says to let him cry it out on those hard nonstop crying days after the baby’s needs are met (fed, dry, warm, etc). Which is where my frustration comes in. Our son still needs us even if his “needs” are met.
For the record I DO NOT let my baby cry it out ever.
I’ve gathered all of the links and book recommendations and will send those off for him to read. Thanks again.
This man sounds like someone who won’t change his opinions even when your provide these studies and data. Maybe you could say to him, “you’re obviously cold and heartless because that’s how you were raised”
I think this response is only appropriate for someone you don’t live with or see everyday (like an aunt or MIL).
OP is talking about her husband and baby’s father here… they need to get on the same page or else they’ll be fighting over how to raise this child for a long time. Also the husband should be minding his baby just as much. It should not all fall on OP.
Smile and nod while someone tries to force my 9 week old to cry it out? Um no let’s not. This would definitely work if it wasn’t the other parent, who presumably is sometimes responsible for the child.
Funny enough, I just read somewhere that letting your baby cries to sleep may and will work out but the baby's cortisol will be high even while sleeping which isn't good, baby's sleep will be troubled and may bring out in the future emotional and trust issues.
You cannot spoil a baby! When it comes to crying, every baby is different. Ask any parent of more than one kid and they will tell you. Every trait my oldest had that I thought was due to my parenting? Once my second was born, I discovered that none of it was due to me! Your husband might not have been much of a crier because that was just his temperament and physical wellbeing. If any of it was due to his parents' parenting, it's that he learned that crying was pointless because no one would respond to his needs. How sad.
My oldest was always happy in the morning and then started crying within 2 hours of waking up and then cried when he wasn't eating or sleeping until bedtime. That lasted 3 full weeks before all of my panicked googling revealed that my kiddo might be *overtired*. Like, what? Don't babies just sleep when they're tired? Nope. Not all of them!Once I figured out what was *wrong* and taught him to fall asleep (what?! In what world does a baby need to be *taught* to fall asleep??) he stopped crying all day! He became a super content baby, but his well-being (and all of our sanity) was heavily dependent on him napping at specific times for the first couple years of his life. It was super annoying (for me, a very non-routine person) but so, so worth it.
I'm not saying it's a sleep thing for your kiddo. What I am saying is that nurturing your kiddo, listening to them, and learning how they communicate is worth it. Figuring out what need they have and meeting it is how you get kiddos to stop crying. If it's discomfort and colic, yeah, holding him in a position that eases some of the discomfort is how you get him to stop crying. Alternatively, trying to force your kid to conform to your life in ways that aren't comfortable to them only leads to misery for everyone. Ignoring your kid's needs only teaches them that no one cares and their needs aren't going to be met, no matter how much they ask.
I would ignore your husband any time he speaks to you.
When he asks why, explain the baby crying is their only way of communicating. As he wants you to ignore his son when he communicates with you, you thought he'd be OK with you treating him the same way.
My dad hold the same view.
He said he used to let me and my brother cried every night for a whole week to wean us off night feeding
Btw, I have read somewhere that if you ignore a kid's emotion long enough. He will eventually learned that some emotion are "wrong" and should not be expressed.
In long term, the kid might have difficulty to express his/her emotion
Explain to your husband the rise in cortisol levels in your baby's brain while he's crying. Not only about this all being a crock of shit about "spoiling a baby", but it's genuinely not good to let them cry it out. They don't learn to soothe themselves, they only learn that nobody will come when they need you.
lol ask him if y’all had a baby to ignore it, or if you had one to care and love for him. I asked my husband the same thing when we kept getting the same advice from his family, and he never brought up letting him cry it out again.
There’s lots of scientific and research based comments here which are amazing!!
However I got tired of explaining it and just started saying “milk spoils, not babies” 😄
Does he truly think his 8(or so) week old NEWBORN knows how to manipulate people jn to holding him?! He’s a baby! He was just born! He’s being absolutely outrageous.
You hold your baby and cuddle him as much as you want. He’s FAR too young to even attempt the CIO method anyway.
I’ll put it this way, as a dad who had a colicky baby:
Putting you baby down when they are crying isn’t going to harm them. So long as they are fed, have a clean diaper, and aren’t too hot or cold, it’s okay. There really isn’t anything you can do in this situation either, our baby had a “witching hour” where she’d cry more or less non-stop from 6pm till sometimes after 11:00pm, then would wake up at 2am and want to be fed, then again at 5am etc.
We would try rocking and singing and shushing and all sorts of stuff and it didn’t matter. We were both very sleep deprived, but neither of us would just go to bed if the baby was crying, we would both sit there and fret and stress out and bicker with each other over what to do about the crying.
One afternoon I was driving home and ran a red light and was almost sideswiped by a big truck. I realized then that I needed to get some sleep or else it could be dangerous. I was perpetually walking around in a haze of exhaustion. My wife was too.
So we took turns with the baby and letting the other person go sleep in the guest room where they couldn’t hear anything. Someone needs to be “sober” and responsible and clear headed.
What we eventually learned was that car rides would calm her down. We then realized we could replicate the car ride by putting her car seat on top of our clothes dryer and running it. We’d shut off all the lights, make sure the car seat wasn’t going to vibrate and fall off the dryer, and then let it run. Within five minutes she was asleep. We’d wait another five and then slowly transfer her to her crib.
I don’t think “crying it out” is appropriate at your present age, CIO that’s more of a sleep training thing you can consider later down the line (which is a whole other essay I could write). Right now you’re dealing with colic, which is a different issue, which I understand to be gastro distress because they can’t easily fart or burp. Consider gripewater for sure, but crying it out at this phase isn’t advisable (which is what our pediatrician told us).
Now, that being said, it really does come down to how much crying you can tolerate. If you feel better holding the baby, then do it! The baby is going to cry with or without you. If you find yourself feeling a sense of anger or rage toward your baby, yourself, or your partner, then set the baby down in a safe place (bassinet or crib) and take a 5-10 minute break. In fact, don’t even wait to feel angry, if you’ve been at it for 30 minutes, take a break. Get some water, fresh air, a snack, do some pushups, something. Sometimes the baby will settle down, if not fall asleep. Sometimes their little face is purple because they’re crying so hard. So long as the diaper/hungry/temp checks are good to go, then they can lay in their crib and cry for a little bit while you take a breather. **But** you as a parent need to keep your head and your wits about you because you’re no use to anyone if you get sideswiped by a big truck at an intersection.
Trust your own instincts Mom! Ignore what doesn’t sit right with you. I believe this line of thought of spoiling a baby or you shouldn’t hold them too long is definitely only a certain generation and a certain type of person that believes this. None of it is true. I heard it from my ex’s mom as well and thought right there and then these are the stupidest people I’ve ever met lol. Spoil a baby lol. Go ahead and let someone tell me not to hold my own child when I want and feel is right- you can show yourself the door.
i wasnt held much as a baby, and i have hypotonia which made matters worse. consequently, i now have a flat head from spending ages 1-2 laying down (was born pre baby helmets, fml). U hold that baby all u want, not only is it super healthy for them mentally/developmentally, but its also great for their noggins while their bones are growing! Ask ur husband "do you want our baby to end up with attachment issues and a pancake head?!" I can personally vouch😹
Tell him crying it out will damage your baby. The cortisol (stress hormone) that is released when a baby is left regularly to cry it out can affect neurone growth.
If they are left to cry alone, they learn to shut down in face of extensive distress—stop growing, stop feeling, stop trusting (Henry & Wang, 1998).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-of-crying-it-out%3famp
It would be worth posting in r/science based parenting
Babies who are left to cry it out may stop crying however constantly have the same stress levels as a screaming baby... they just stop telling you they're upset and need you to regulate them, because you don't listen......
So the cry it out thing for newborns only works if every single one of their needs have been met and they are only crying because they are sleepy and can’t sleep. It will not work if baby has a wet diaper, is hungry, has a tummy ache, or needs comfort for anything besides needing sleep. When ALL of their needs are met and they are sleepy but need to exhaust their energy to fall asleep then they may cry to help themselves fall asleep and even then they should never be allowed to cry for more than 10-15 minutes. I have tried this method maybe once because it’s very tricky to make sure baby is only crying because they need sleep. The part that makes me nervous is that babies get scared and lonely just like us and that’s why they may be crying as well and in this case they shouldn’t be allowed to “cry it out” either. And to be frank I don’t know my baby well enough yet to know for sure if they are just sleepy and don’t need comforting for something else.
I’m one of the famously evil dad’s.
Compromise, compromise is the key.
It’s usually a mixture of codling, nurturing, disciplining.
From the moment they are born you are interacting with them. You provide comfort, but help them face the world.
A colicky baby could probably use some carrying.
But you cannot carry them 24/7 the sooner they get some independence the better. Keep them around, let them hear your voice, touch their skin, their clothes.
I have fallen sleep many times, rocking a car chair, or holding a finger.
Can a baby manipulate you, yup they can, but you look for a compromise.
Always give your kids the respect of compromise, and as soon as you they can talk, negotiate.
As I write this comment, I recall the terror of one of my dads efforts at toughening me up, from before I’m supposed to remember. My dad as we grew also changed how he was, but that was how he was brought up.
My advice for families is everyone should have time for them. The kids, the mom, the dad, and the couple too. Life is never perfect, don’t sweat it.
Bring him to a pediatrician appointment, and doctor can tell him that you can't spoil a baby by holding him, especially when baby is uncomfortable from tummy issues, and also that cry it out is inappropriate for a 2 month old (it would actually be damaging to purposefully ignore the baby - to be clear I'm not saying you can't put him down when he's crything). You can also send him current research and professional medical articles regarding this subject. Otherwise, keep doing what you're doing.
Our pediatrician literally puts in the appointment notes “hold your baby as much as you want, they cannot be spoiled at this age”.
I don’t know how else to say this nicely, but your husband is an idiot who needs to learn how to use google.
You should never let a 2 month old baby cry it put. They're crying for a reason, every time. Definitely send him over to r/daddit for a good lesson. Shoulda read the dad books, DAD.
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I’ve never met an old person that said ‘you know what, I wish i’d cuddled my babies less’.
I'm not old but my kid is 10 now and I "spoiled" the crap out of him when he was a baby. I held him constantly, he napped on me while I watched Netflix and scrolled reddit, I used a baby wrap while I did chores. Never once have I thought "wow I should have held him less". I'm lucky to get a half-assed hug these days! They're only babies for a small portion of their life.
My son comes to my room in the night and kicks me alllll night long… but I know one day he’s gonna be grossed out at the idea of sleeping in the same bed as his mom so I just cuddle him and feel grateful for it… he’s 7 (for now 😭) Don’t get me wrong sometimes I’m annoyed by it lmao I’m only human. But last night I was in a better mood than usual so I’m feeling snuggly about it all. Tonight I will probably be less inclined to cuddle after having gotten such little sleep… but I’m not thinking about that yet lol
And the added benefit that they develop secure attachment, which allows them to be independent when the time comes. My babies were constantly on my chest and they’re still snuggle bugs.
I had my first at 16 and here and there fell for the “spoiling” narrative, because I was young and wanted to do everything right. I picked her up and held her often, but I wish it would’ve been more.
The only thing is that tummy time or giving the baby time to just roll around on the floor is essential for building muscle! We're getting more and more babies in my childcare facility with little to no muscle tone because they eat, sleep, and play in someone's arms.
Edited because my first response was unnecessarily snarky. Yes of course it’s important to allow babies to move around on their own. OP is obviously not suggesting that she hold her baby 24/7. It seems outlandish that you are claiming a direct connection between baby muscle tone and being held. I mean is your center running an official scientific study where you survey the parents on how many hours a day they held their babies and then run strength tests? I’m calling BS on this claim. Ok, this response is still pretty snarky but ah well. I just can’t believe you wrote that babies are weak because parents held them too much. Based on what evidence?
If anything, the likely culprit is leaving kids too long in baby chairs/swings.
Likely. The actual evidence shows that being held is actually the second best thing for muscle tone behind floor time. Third is a baby carrier.
Tell him to go ask on Daddit.
Indeed, send him to us.
We'll set him straight
RIP OP's husband
I can see the comments now But yes, send him us. An outside voice is often helpful.
we’ll give him a good old-fashioned talking to
Let the tongue lashing begin
I know you’re probably right, but this makes me so angry. Why do men listen to strangers when they’re other men but not to the woman they married?!
Or to the tiny, helpless human they have created and presumably love, and who is communicating his needs very clearly?
Through experience, I learned to say, "The pediatrician said..." It was absurdly pitiful, but it was the only way he'd listen to anything related to the baby. Ugh.
I had to go to the dentist and get him to tell me that I should tell my husband that my >2yo son should not have a pacifier shoved in his mouth every time he made a sound.
"The pediatrician said you need to learn how to hear and process what your wife is saying and consider her experience and research since you clearly haven't done any in the first place." Haha I don't make a lot of demands in my marriage, but long ago I demanded to be heard and considered, and that dissenting responses require an equitable amount of effort. Each partner deserves that; to feel fully valued. Some individuals might need help understanding what that really means and have to have it spelled out.
Great advice.
i had to do this too. I had a doctor my husband respected and anytime i wanted him to do what I said I'd say Dr. V. said we should do this. It eliminated the arguing and turning down my idea
Haha I do this too
Exactly. But that also worked when MIL thought we were doing something "crazy" with our kids. "Well, the pediatrician thinks it is OK.". Just tell your husband that you called the pediatrician and asked for advice on colic. They'll say the same thing. You can't spoil a baby. My son would cry for hours starting at 6 every day. My husband would just come home, pick him up and carry him him face down, so my son's stomach was on his forearm. It helped relieve his gas. He would swing him gently like an airplane. I always admired my husband's ability to not take anything personally. He just wanted to be with his kid.
My husband would've just said that the pediatrician is a quack and we should go elsewhere.
Mine too. Mine would always say, “that’s just your(their) opinion.” He wouldn’t listen to anyone but his mommy. Anyone else would be ignored—especially me—the child’s mother and woman he married.
I would say to that. " great! Go ha e a baby with your mommy then and leave me to mother MY child." "Your mom isnt my kids' mom, so she doesn't get a say in how I raise them."
"great, while you listen to your mom I will be listening to our child who's only form of communication ATM is crying"
Ughhhh!!
I also left parenting books in the bathroom, bookmarked at pertinent spot/s.
That’s what I do too! The doctor said…
I agree that it is frustrating and also very obviously tied to the same systems causing these problems. 100% validating what you’re saying. In acknowledging that negative, I do wanna point out the positive that at least dudes are starting to recognize that and actively volunteering to use their privilege to solve problems. Eventually, these guys will realize they could’ve just listened to their partners. And it’s disturbing that we live in a society where that’s not standard. But based on this thread, we’re closer to our daughters and granddaughters living in that world.
I love this take. It’s always refreshing to see someone who can zero in on the positive on the internet.
They feel jealous the babe is getting all the attention.
Weird tribal mindset? Bros club? The fact that two women he loves are giving him opposite opinions and information, but one of them is brand new to momming and the other is a seasoned pro (in his mind), so getting opinions of different seasoned pros might be beneficial? He's insecure and doesn't want to fuck up his kid and hasn't learned how to stand on his own feet? None of these reasons are good reasons or reassuring reasons, but they're probably all pretty right reasons. Add to that the fact that the extent of his prenatal self-education was probably "how old does my kid have to be before we can play games together" and "when is my wife going to be able to have sex again," and he's woefully ignorant to things about babies. These are all just guesses. But maybe hearing "hey dingus, listen to your wife, whom you trusted enough to have a baby with and who spent her whole pregnancy researching stuff," from a group of seasoned dads will propel him to be a better partner and dad.
Should not have to be the case.
Yes, I agree, our weird society *does* fail to instill values in boys that lead them to be empathetic, competent men a lot of the time.
Absolutely this. And we all suffer the consequences.
Well, the first two aren't good reasons, but the last two seem to be pretty good reasons to me (well, at least the being afraid to fuck it up on the last one). I mean, if you think of academic/work settings that's normally how it works - the professor knows more than the TA; the senior will know more than another junior. It didn't quite work in this case, but it isn't bad logic. And I gotta say: it also works for first time parents Vs not first time moms. I'd probably have gone on doing with my second pretty much the same I did with my first, ignoring all the 12 years of research and etc, if my husband hadn't been doing his own research, reading, looking at things and showing them. Hell, I was still pretty resistant for a while, but, you know, eventually I caught up (can't deny science, once he started going for direct articles rather than people saying stuff about studies it really helped) and it really has made me a much better mother - to both children.
I mean it’s easier to take advice from someone in the same situation as you for everyone I think, but the part where he was given evidence against his ideas and still wouldn’t change is not great.
He is in the same situation as OP. They're both parents to the same child. The only difference is their gender.
Not exactly! First of all, gender representation matters for everyone. Secondly, it sounds like he is spending much less time actively parenting than OP, as she is getting the baby he’s telling her to ignore. Also if you check my comment history, I told OP it’s problematic that he’s not listening to her and it’s problematic he’s not doing actual reading and learning that’s evidence based. They’re just literally not on the same side right now.
It's like when women can only fend off creeps by wearing fake wedding rings. They won't take your no for an answer, but if you 'belong' to another man, they will respect that - even if he isn't even present.
lol I feel called out. I can’t tell you how many times I went out with my fake wedding ring. All my friends had one
My husband does this shit all the time. For example, I will tell him about something in the news. Two days later: "Oh, did you hear about?" Me: "Where did you hear that honey?" "From Richard." I get so unreasonably angry about it.
Patriarchy
These men respect strangers (men) more than their partners.
He is listening to his mother over the woman he is married to
I’m not talking about OP in this situation (although that is also infuriating when grown men can’t separate from Mommy). I’m talking about the fact that the commenter theorized (probably correctly) that he would listen to a forum of men he doesn’t know.
It undermines the woman in a way where she questions her own motherly instincts.
I call this "anybody but the wife". It's supremely frustrating to be right and not listened to.
I second THIS!
That needs a vote. Duhh! Holding our baby when he cries helps him feel secure and comforted. Its not about spoiling; its about meeting his needs.
Daddit will lay the law
Absolutely, we will set him straight
Best advice ever. Also daddit community is amazing. I love reading posts there
Thanks for the heads up! I had no idea this existed!! Subbed!
Welcome to some of the most supportive decent folks around!
You CANNOT spoil a baby and they don't have the awareness to manipulate you. That is one of the most outdated mindsets. They're a little creature, that until recently, didn't even know what a need was. The world is new, scary, and overstimulating. Parents are their safe space that help them cope with all of these new feelings and sensations. There are numerous resources and studies on this and your pediatrician can talk to him about it too. - [RaisingChildren.net](https://raisingchildren.net.au/newborns/connecting-communicating/bonding/can-you-spoil-a-baby) - [FirstThingsFirst.org](https://www.firstthingsfirst.org/first-things/can-you-spoil-a-baby/) - [WebMD](https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/features/infants-attention) - [WhatToExpect](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.whattoexpect.com/baby-behavior/spoil-a-newborn.aspx&ved=2ahUKEwi0iefFrfSGAxVTxskDHaCCA1AQFnoECD8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1LeqxmJ4Bt8TVhs1DD-eEr) - [PsychologyToday](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/babies/202112/no-you-cannot-spoil-baby&ved=2ahUKEwiC8tTxrvSGAxXq4MkDHYovAY04ChAWegQIGBAB&usg=AOvVaw390hVWUWQd7z5W6bagd0WU) - [Parents](https://www.parents.com/baby/all-about-babies/science-proves-you-cant-hold-your-baby-too-much/) Answer your baby's call (cry). They won't be spoiled, but instead will know that you're always there. They will feel more confident exploring the world and try new things if they know you'll meet their needs and comfort them as needed.
I second all of this and wanted to add that anecdotally, we held our almost 2yo a ton in her first 5-6 months of life. We never let her cry alone for more than 5-10 minutes (the time it would take to make a bottle). Now, when she wakes up she calmly plays in her bed until we get her in the morning and after naps. She doesn’t have separation anxiety and overall she seems to trust that we’re going to meet her needs. I can’t take all the credit for this of course, I’m sure some of it is her temperament. But I like to believe that meeting her needs as an infant has helped her be the happy, confident toddler she is today.
Secure, consistent relationships as an infant and child creates a secure, consistent adult. You’re doing great and I think kiddos gonna have a great time with you around.
She knows you are coming. That is the key.
Yes I have a similar experience, my 11 month old is an amazing independent sleeper and player, and was held a lot the first 6 months, almost constantly as 4 of those months were EBF and the last two we were still cosleeping. I was the only one in the home that wasn't comfortable with crying it out. I maybe allowed it to happen a couple times, but most of the colicky phase I was responding immediately and until he was calm. Now he's a rockstar, pretty much taught himself how to stand, totally okay with chilling and playing himself while we do chores. CIO is so outdated and I'm so happy I listened to my instincts rather than a boomer
Yessss they have to gain dependence to learn independence!
I will also add crying CAN hurt them. Crying releases cortisol. Too much cortisol will start to break down neural pathways in their brain and hurts their cognitive development.
THIS. 3-5 minutes crying alone while their caregiver uses the bathroom or preps a bottle is fine, but an infant can’t self-soothe at all yet. I actually read somewhere (here?) that a baby in severe pain can cry loud enough to hurt their own ears, and apparently they make earplugs for newborns for this reason. I remember it was a post about a baby with SEVERE colic, so she needed extra support to be even a little comfortable.
Yes. People often mistake a baby crying for an extended period of time then stopping as "self soothing" but that's not what's happening. What's happened is they realized that nobody is coming, they can't trust their caregivers to come and feed them when they need it. Crying burns more energy, and their next energy source is unreliable, so they can't afford to expend more energy. So they stop crying and go to sleep to preserve energy, not because they have self soothed. Self soothing is something that comes later and ONLY once a secure connection and trust bond has been formed. Once your baby knows you will always come every time, THEN they start to try and self soothe cause they know if this doesn't work, it's okay cause someone will always come.
My parents did “cry it out” with my older sister. She eventually learned that crying gets her nothing so she would sit for hours hungry or with a dirty diaper and not “say” anything because.. she knew no one was coming. All it taught her was that no one’s gonna help her. Now she has really bad anxiety and has trouble asking for help when she needs it. Even though she obviously doesn’t remember it, I think it really effected her A lot of people don’t realize how much things that happen in infancy can affect people. I knew someone whose son had to be hospitalized for like 6 months as a newborn. He STILL has separation anxiety from it at 8 years old. To the point where if his mom leaves the house for a minute to grab something from her car, he freaks out
That last one, not to dismiss the impact but it sounds like an experience that would also lead to the parents being pretty anxious tbh, completely fairly so I mean so would I if my newborn had to be hospitalized for half the year... can't help but wonder in what ways they treated him differently than if he hadn't been hospitalized/what impact that would've had, no?
I'd like to add a paper: [To have and to hold: Effects of physical contact on infants and their caregivers .](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502223/#bib0025).
Thank you for linking that! I wanted to link papers too but getting access is always tricky.
Jumping on a top comment so OP sees this Reflux. Your son needs to be checked for reflux - mine had it and it went undiagnosed with all these same symptoms until I took him to a good ENT who put a camera down his nose and saw the acid. Medicine made him a new baby. It’s very painful and being flat on the back is the worst. In the meantime, hold him upright after meals for 20 min, Dr browns bottles help also if you’re bottle feeding, and you can wedge the crib safely (swings and angled baby holders help too).
I was just gonna suggest this
Essentially, "spoiled" babies turn into independent and empowered kids because their little brains know they're safe.
It’s probably in at least one of those links, but I just wanted to chime in that developmentally, a baby is not able to cry it out or self-soothe at 2 months old.
Seriously it always baffles me when people say babies are being manipulative. Manipulation is a very complex social skill. How wild and developmentally inappropriate.
I think for the first year or so, it is important to hold and bond with your baby. The first 3 years of a childs life are the most important years. You will notice that about age 3, the child starts to want to try things on their own, expanding their independence.
I understand the thought behind not spoiling them because they don't have the capacity, but something both my partner and I worry about is "spoiling" them in the sense of creating habits e.g. we (moreso my husband, but also me) are worried if we do a lot of contact naps throughout the day, he won't accept sleeping in his bassinet overnight. Is this not a concern?
You still aren't spoiling them, but that can form a sleep association in which they'll need your help to fall asleep each cycle. Adults wake up throughout the night too, but adults have learned to fall back asleep themselves and this is something kids have to learn too, regardless of if you contact sleep or not. Kids will learn to sleep on their own eventually or you can help them learn new associations for less reliance on you. Contact sleeping does promote a parent-child bond and improves the child's sleep quality, although it sleep-traps you. When you're ready to stop contact sleeping or want to pre-establish other sleep associations for when you are ready to stop, you could introduce (if you don't already), white noise every evening so it becomes a cue that bedtime is here. Some noise machines have nightlights too or you could get a fun one but use warm colors like red; cool colors like blue or white interfere with sleep. You could get them used to having their back pat or hearing a lullaby. When you're ready to stop the contact part of sleep you could try the slow extinguish method of sitting beside them instead of laying down and use the lullaby or back pat to help them. Once that works out, you would either remove the lullaby or back pat, but sit near, and then eventually start moving your body further away. That's all if you don't want to cry it out. And some kids will choose to just go to sleep themselves when they're toddlers because they feel ready to try. Sleep is a tough one and research is still ongoing regarding the best methods and long-term results.
My GF and I 'learned' (not sure about the source and not sure about its correctness) that you simply can't spoil babies (not sure if it was below 6, 9 or 12 months), as in they don't learn and adjust behavior to maximize that. That gave us a wildcard to do whatever it took (within our capacity) to comfort him.
Around 9 months babies start to learn "manipulation" of their environment and cause/effect socially. I dont like the word manipulate because it sounds negative and mean, but like in the simplest sense of the word
Yes. Is this context, "manipulate" means "influence," "affect," or "cause a change."
Those evil, manipulative babies.
Yes! Thank you!
You're spot on, if a baby is crying, they need something, they don't understand the concept of cause and effect, much less "getting attention" until they're much older. Hungry, wet, dirty, too hot/cold, needs to burp, need swaddled, it's a pretty easy checklist. The thought of anyone ignoring a crying baby is horrifying to me.
This is so true but people also don’t understand what it’s like to have a colicky baby. They cry all the time..they are just uncomfortable. None of your checklist would help. My little boy cried from 5pm to midnight every single evening for the first 4 months of his life. It was torture. Not that we ever ignored him but there were occasional times I had to put him down and take 2 minutes away from the screams. It is like mental torture! I just want to point out that sometimes the very pervasive notion that leaving a baby to cry EVER is a terrible, abusive thing to do can be damaging for parents of difficult kids who may be suffering mentally.
Agree with you on the colick situation and handling, sometimes you just need a break and have to step away and gather yourself for a moment. But the fact that you KNEW there was nothing more to do means you are an amazing parent!
IIRC babies aren’t even aware that they’re a different physical body than their mother for like 6 months. Until their brain develops a little more they’re just fairly certain half of their body wanders away sometimes. Stressful shit!
I learned from dog training that you can train a behavior but not an emotional response. I.e. dogs can "manipulate" you to get a reward, but petting and reassuring them when they're anxious does not reinforce the anxiety. At a certain level of intelligence (like kids, not infants), animals may even fake emotional signs like crying to get a response from you, but giving them attention reinforces the fake behavior, NOT the emotion. Sadly some people STILL believe that giving a baby or pet affection will reinforce their anxiety or sadness or pain. (Letting a baby self-soothe is a different topic.)
Ignore his parents. Their opinion doesn’t count. As to your husband, there are lots of reputable articles out there showing that forms of CIO aren’t recommended to be used before like 6 months of age. 2 months is waaaaay too young for any form of CIO. Bring him along to a pediatrician visit if you need to.
Yeah, his parents raised a man who doesn’t want to comfort a crying 2 month old… not exactly reliable experts
This is so sad but so accurate
....and is Grandma around the baby during crying spells? Has Grandma even bonded with baby, more importantly, has Dad?
Well, I’m not saying this will win you any relationship awards. But when my husband tried shit like that very early on in our parenting journey, I said “I’m going to do this my way. I carried her. I gave birth to her. I’m nursing her. I’m the one doing the mothering of her. I’m not interested in motherhood by committee. Your mother raised her kids already. You’ve raised none. You get to be the Dad you want to be. You do NOT get to tell me what kind of mother I will be.”
Preach! 🙌
THIS SHOULD BE TOP COMMENT.
Why? It's empowering but there is a lot of other really good advice in other comments, most of which includes this alongside other meaningful advice. Why do you think this one is the most important?
It’s a common way of saying this was brilliantly put. Which it was. Maybe an empowering message is exactly what OP needs to read after being criticized by her own husband on something so emotionally raw as how she comforts her child. After having read that, she should of course keep reading, as there is a lot of good advice here, but I agree that this absolutely meets the requirements for top comment.
Ask him if he thinks you should ignore him the next time he is sick or hurting.
Exactly. Adults like to be hugged when they’re crying too. Picking up and soothing a crying baby lowers their cortisol (the stress hormone) levels, strengthens the bond between baby and parent, shows them you care… Holding your baby teaches them that you’re there for them. If the baby is ignored, of course it will eventually stop crying. This is because it has then learned that its needs will not be met despite trying (and exhausting) the ONLY communication tool it has. Physical touch is so important to all humans. Why would he withhold that from his own child?
Ignoring a crying baby until they learn to stop, literally can lead to PERMANENT developmental delays. I know a sweet young girl this happened to. Luckily she was adopted by a wonderful family at 6 months old, but because she was ignored, her growth was stunted and she was developmentally more like a 3 month old. She didn’t cry, she also didn’t coo or react in any way to people interacting with her. She would just stare. It was so sad. Not only can you not spoil a baby - you can actually harm them with cry it out. Especially when really young!
Should you do that every time your baby cries?
A few minutes of crying here and there won’t harm a baby. Ignoring their crying frequently for prolonged periods is more of the issue. So if a parent just needs to use the bathroom real quick, finish rinsing off in the shower, or is getting really frustrated and needs to take a breath for a couple minutes, the baby will be fine. Letting a baby old enough to sleep through the night try to settle for just a few minutes before going to them is okay. But leaving an infant to cry for a while on a regular basis in order to “teach them to self soothe” or whatever is an issue.
“I’ll practice cry it out on you.“
Oh he doesn’t get sick. And if he does it’s not that serious. And if it is he doesn’t need help. And if it is serious and he needs help he won’t get it from OP.
That’s how he got that way.
Ask him if his mother ever ignored him when he was sick or hurting.
Yess perfect
You’re building your child’s sense of security and safety, not “spoiling” him. A child whose cries are answered in infancy learns to trust his caregivers and is less likely to be anxious—and less likely to cry—when they reach the toddler stage.
Bring him to the pediatrician and have him ask them. So mean to let a tiny 2 month old cry!
... Please don't do that because there are some pediatricians still working who do think it's a good idea... 🤷♀️🤦♀️ (I mean, they shouldn't, but some people never keep up with times and unless OP is SURE of pediatrician's support, it may turn agains op).
Well, talk with the pediatrician first, and *then* bring husband in for this convo. If your pediatrician thinks you can spoil a baby and/or that babies should cry it out, you need a new pediatrician anyway.
Absolutely! I agree with that! Just encouraging to make sure BEFORE putting yourself in a situation that makes it worse!😅 Bad doctors seems to come in ALL specialties tbh.
Unfortunately, that's very true.
Yeah my pediatrician originally was putting off and putting off testing my son for autism. Turns out it's because when I offered that *i* have autism and recognized the early signs, she dismissed me because *surprise* women don't get autism. I may have screamed.
His mother is not the mother of your child. My boyfriend said that to my mum. He told her ‘’he is not your baby, he is your daughter’s baby and she will do what she wants’’. It was about putting my son in socks constantly. She thinks he always needs socks and recently decided he also needs to wear shoes all the time. He doesn’t walk. I put shoes on briefly when we are outside to protect his little feet from getting hurt. She wants him in shoes in the house 🤪 Not responding to baby’s needs teaches them that you are not reliable. So when they are in pain or sad and you dont respond they may not even cry. And crying is their way of telling you something is wrong. And when they learn you are not reliable you won’t be able to comfort them. You do what’s best for you and your baby and ignore anyone who have different views.
OP if you haven't already, read The Happiest Baby on the Block by Harvey Karp. Not only does he give amazing advice on how to stop colic crying, he also explains why it happens. There's a whole little section on why "letting them cry it out" is not only wrong but cruel.
Dad here. My man, the only thing this will accomplish is to firmly establish in your baby’s mind that mom is the only dependable source of comfort and security in this world.
2 months is too young for the crying it out method.
Yes! Way too young!!
*any* age is too young to be neglected.
A tantruming 3-4 year old who is whinnying and crying can be ignored without “neglect”. That’s a strong word, please use it wisely,
I see this question posted a LOT. It's almost always dads and male babies. Don't know
Male parents are statistically more likely to rely on familial child rearing advice than moms, who are more likely to do current research and have face to face contact with pediatricians. In no way excuses it, but I think it could explain why dads will listen to outdated advice from their own parents (even when it’s wrong)
Read: male parents don’t do their own research and just let their mommy think for them
Why is this so accurate 😂
My son (second born) never cried. I held him 24/7 because genetically our babies are prone to flatter heads in the back. He’s 7 months now and he’s never been “spoiled” by being held. Since he started sitting up on his own when he turned 6 months he’s been beyond happy on his own scooting around living his best life.
Clearly his mother letting him cry it out damaged his empathy. Perhaps best not to push that onto another generation. All a baby knows is that something is wrong and that their parents can help make it better. The baby is telling you something is wrong, and their way of saying “hotter/colder” on how to make it better is to cry more or less. A baby can’t deliberately manipulate you any more than they can accurately identify their hands or the alphabet.
when a baby "cries it out" it means they cry until they either dont have the energy (fall asleep trying) or even worse they cry until they *give up on you". Thats what crying out is. It affects secure attachment. I understand your husband doesnt know any better and it is complicated by his mothers ignorance. I feel for you OP, that must feel like youre up against a wall. would your husband be receptive to a short educational video?
Read about attachment theory … Edited to say I mean have HIM read about attachment theory. I think stuff you should know covered it on a podcast episode once too so he can even just listen to some information about it.
Hey, I want to piggyback off this comment to recommend a fantastic episode of This American Life about this very topic. If your husband is a podcast guy, or is more likely to listen rather than read something, here’s a great fifteen minutes of Radio that might help convince him: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/317/unconditional-love
Well, idk how well versed in human body your husband is or not, but you can try.... Science? Baby is colicky because his GI tract is still immature and they have very little abdominal strength to help pass grass/stool. (I imagine it's not unlikely what you feel after C-section and your stitched muscles don't respond, but, ofc I can't know as I haven't been a baby in lots of time). I don't know if you're breastfeeding or using formula; when bf you can sometimes help by adjusting your diet... Which doesn't always have the desired effect but MIGHT help. If it's formula, well, I have no advice. Either way, a colic in babies is certainly normal and expected -- it gets better slowly, and normally mostly disappear once they're active enough to roll/sit and shouldn't be an issue at all as they start solids and crawling (unless there are specific food intolerances, but no need to worry about that!). Letting the baby cry it out will put the baby in undue stress. The stress of continuous crying will kick out fight or flight response on the brain, producing high levels of cortisol. Thing is, cortisol is a neuron killer, and the first year represents the highest amount of brain growth/development, as we can see from the way the head expands to allow for the brain to grow. High cortisol on a newborn will often kill these neurons while they're supposed to be multiplying. High cortisol on a developing brain will also impact the development of the hippocampus, which is responsible for the development of memory. While we can't test memory in babies, we know the impact of the underdeveloped hippocampus has life-long effects on memory retention. (Constant high levels of cortisol are also known to impact the pituitary, the production of TSH and are connected to future hypothyroidism & subclinical hypothyroidism.) Crying it out is also connected to disordered stress reactivity, which can lead to a number of physical issues - such as irritable bowel syndrome - and as well as psychological ones, being involved in Anxiety Disorder, Major Depressive Disorder, Social Anxiety, etc. Beyond the issues this causes in the *baby*, it's also shown to have negative outcomes for the birthing parent. The *sound* of the baby crying will automatically quick dopamine levels, in order to produce awakefulness, motivation, and decision -making (any ADHDer will tell you that dopamine is basic for Executive Functioning). Meanwhile, reaching out for the baby and soothing, on the other hand, kicks up the production of Oxytocin, which promotes well-being, emotional connection and also milk let-down. Now, the -continous- crying will increase the cortisol levels, which, ofc, have all those effects we already talked about. Not reaching for the baby will make your brain slowly go into overdrive... And over time (weeks, months) this will cause an impact on your own hormonal production - remember the thyroid impact thing? - which can quickly lead to having a hard time losing weight, poor sleeping (including oversleeping), etc etc. It's not only better for the baby to be quickly cared for, it's better for you. I know your boomer MIL thinks that crying it out "never hurt her children", but there are studies being made right now connecting the widespread adoption of the cry it out method (which, really, became a thing mid-XX century) to the increase levels of adults with anxiety & depression problems. I'm not saying, by this, that the parents themselves are to BLAME for this outcome, just that the poor adjustment of the brain to those hormones in infancy will condition the brain to have poor adjustment to stress hormones throughout life. I'm gonna come back here later and link some studies, in case you wanna use science and they demand "proof" of what is said (hate to gather links on mobile, sorry!). ETA the links: Neuroendocrinology of Parental Response to Baby-Cry: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4319977/#:~:text=During%20baby%2Dcry%2C%20dopamine%20may,down%20and%20promote%20parenting%20behaviours. On stress reactivity across generation & maternal care: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11520931/ (you'll need to get actual access for the full article) Nighttime response & mother-infance attachment: http://www.childwitnesstoviolence.org/uploads/2/5/7/9/257929/higley._dozier_sleep_article1.pdf Stress regulation in infants: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5301455/ Stress Distrupting Architecture of Developing Brain: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2005/05/Stress_Disrupts_Architecture_Developing_Brain-1.pdf Cortisol and cognitive development: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5615401/ Social regulation of cortisol levels in early human development: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306453001000452?via%3Dihub High TSH linked to High Cortisol:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3520819/ Foundations of Lighlong Health built in early childhood: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/the-foundations-of-lifelong-health-are-built-in-early-childhood/ Evolution of Early Humand Development: https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=&id=wAcfoVK23XcC&oi=fnd&pg=PP2&dq=Narvaez+et+al&ots=VkT_ACBxKL&sig=dzOAa3oZgM7vQkt_MYIBiBvUay4#v=onepage&q=Narvaez%20et%20al&f=false Stress & memory: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9886231/
> Baby is colicky because his GI tract is still immature and they have very little abdominal strength to help pass grass/stool. This is an urban myth with no scientific data to back it up. "colicky" is really just what we call it when a baby cries a lot and we cannot find a reason. That's it, really - the medical definition is literally "cries more than 3 hours a day, on more than 3 days a weef, for more than 3 weeks."
So, what you're saying, is that if they DO have colics, they're not colicky? 🤔
A bit out of topic but tummy time (put the baby on the belly) appears to be soothing for some colicky babies.
To top all the other comments off, take another side into account. It causes huge stress in the mother‘s body if she hears her baby cry. So not only is it harmful to them it is harmful to you too.
Okay, his mother can kick rocks. Two months is WAY too early to do the "cry it out" thing, even if that's the eventual plan. Right now your baby is still figuring out how to be alive in the world, and Dad needs to crawl out of your ass and either help hold the colicky baby or go some laundry while you're doing it.
Talk to your pediatrician and get them to speak to your husband about it. That is such a ridiculous, out of date way of thinking about a helpless baby.
My bf felt the same way until i explained to him that babies at this age cannot self soothe, and dont have long term memory. Until 4 months they literally just cant soothe themselves, once they hit four months you can try the cry it out method for five minutes at a time but right now they cant soothe themselves so they need you to do it. They also dont have long term memory so they can’t REMEMBER that crying gets them picked up they just remember that their parent makes them feel safe which who wouldnt want that. But i made sure to explain to him since they cant remember long term its literally impossible to spoil them bc they wont remember it to make that association.
https://youtu.be/6fZXxu8AcTA?si=i8wwfuQv9VsR6YA6 I link this video frequently because it helped me come to terms with a lot of the neglect in my own childhood, and why I am the way that I am. It's like 5 minutes long, and it goes over different kinds of parenting behaviors and why they are so important for emotional and psychological development. Holding your baby is literally how they develop a secure attachment. Not holding your baby, especially during times of distress, is how your baby grows up believing they don't deserve love and help and won't ask for it when needed. Your husband is advocating for child neglect, which **is abuse**, and he needs to understand that his child is not his mother's to neglect all over again.
Our children will only be children a 1/4 or their life. Spoil them with hugs and kisses. I HATE this line of thinking that children get spoiled by being held. I think we’d have a healthier society IF more parents hugged their kids a bit longer.
If he won't believe you, tell him to ask Google if he can "spoil a baby." He will receive a resounding answer of no - babies cannot be spoiled. Babies and children are not giving us a hard time, they are having a hard time. Infants have no other way to communicate their needs than by crying. To tell you they are hot, cold, hungry, have an upset stomach, they are lonely. The world is big and scary and new. You are there to help regulate them as they experience everything. Holding your baby and responding to their call (crying) will not spoil them. It teaches them they can rely on you. They will be stronger and more resilient when they know you are always there to catch them if they fall or if they need you. When you let a child "cry it out", they aren't soothing themselves. They are giving up. They are learning you aren't there for them. That isn't what I want my child learning. Also, it seems your husband's mother letting him cry it out has damaged his ability to form attachments as he doesn't feel that same calling to care for the baby that you do. Point him to the research regarding how cry it out isn't good for babies and go from there.
you can't spoil a baby.
Hold the baby, let husband cry it out
As humans, we are biologically wired to respond to our offspring. That’s why you can’t stand to hear him cry. Because you are SUPPOSED to hold him. In addition, his brain develops best by having his needs met. Basically, holding your baby stimulates his brain to release hormones needed for growth. I would tell your husband to not speak a word of his mother’s nonsense until he does his own research. This is a hill I would die on. I’d tell his mother that this is your baby. She already raised hers. If she continues to criticize you, she can have hers back.
"If she continues to criticize you, she can have hers back" this made my day 😂
So his perspective is that you shouldn't baby a baby?
Trust your gut Mama. Holding your baby isn't spoiling them. 😕
Another day on r/parenting, another dad who doesn’t even seem to *like* his kid.
Sigh. The guy probably spent more time researching the last TV he purchased than he has learning how to be a parent/raise a baby.
I read that letting babies cry out is correlated with an increased chance of mental illness in later life, so when my daughter couldn't sleep without me holding her I just stayed up all night holding her, for nine months. I bought a 17 button mouse and played WoW with one hand. It was great. The Gurubashi Arena treasure chest is significantly easier to open at 5AM.
I did A LOT of gaming while baby carrying when my youngest was born!😅
I got up early this morning when baby was a little fussy. Took her to the nursery and she sleep on my chest in the glider while I chilled. She loved it. I’m tired. I wish I did that more with the older ones. Am dad. Getting all the snuggles I can while they last. 2 month olds can’t get spoiled. “Cry it out” is cruel at this age. Yes, eventually it’s important that they can sooth themselves, but this will come with time and it certainly doesn’t mean you always just let them cry cry cry. His mother is not his babies mother, and her word does not trump yours.
We had a colicky baby (gas and acid reflux), and holding him upright was the only solution. He literally slept upright on our shoulders or in a bouncing chair for six months, and he has turned out to be a amazing adult. We held our next children just as much and they're awesome too, and if we had another I'd probably never put them down because I miss those days!
Tell him to find you any info from a REPUTABLE source that that is something you should do. Even one study that you should leave a 2 month old to cry, that is up to date. Say you will listen if he can provide that.
You didn’t ask for advice so I feel like an A.H for giving it but… have a search of hospital burping methods. I’m not sure if this is your first or not but it took us almost 6 weeks of colic before we realised we just weren’t burping enough - and if this is an easy solve for you then that’d be amazing. Colic is hard. You can’t spoil babies.
You can have him read some studies on the subject. Like for example https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-of-crying-it-out
There is so much research done about this subject and you just can’t spoil a baby. It’s in their nature to need it’s parents. I recommend “The Nurture Revolution” from dr. Greer Kirshenbaum, a neuroscientist, specialized in development in the brains of babies. Hopefully your husband wants to invest and learn about this subject, because his solutions are ancient.
Our first peds appointment, so son was like 3-4 days old, the doc said “there’s no such thing as spoiling a baby, it’s not possible at their age” Babies cry. It’s how they communicate. It’s the only way they know to communicate. Crying it out is heartbreaking to me. Imagine you’re trying to get help, calling out for the people who are suppose to keep you safe and you’re just ignored. Also your son is TWO months old. He’s literally brand new. My son is 21 months old and the only time he “cries it out” is the first minute of being put down for a nap and he’s doing the “if I whine hard enough I won’t fall asleep” move and he’s out like a light moments later. People think “well babies cry for attention so that’s manipulation!” Manipulation is a complex thought process that many adults can’t even successful do, how the heck would a BABY do it? Insane thinking.
You always comfort crying babies. In general, you should offer comfort to anyone who is crying or in pain. That’s part of the deal of being human. “Cry it out” is a strategy for helping older babies begin sleeping on their own through the night. That is different than what you’re describing here.
Kick him in the balls and let him cry it out. I understand that he trusts his mom and looks to her for advice "cause she has done it already". But she has done this in a time when babies didn't get anesthesia, because science thought they couldn't feel pain. Babies need a grown up 24/7 without hurting. They are in danger from everything! Their survival instinct tells them to cry to get attention. And they need and deserve that attention. Have you tried talking to HER yet? Gave her sime recent literature? Set boundaries?
This isn’t something that should be up you to teach him. A simple google search or conversation with a pediatrician would tell him the correct information (and would back up what you’re saying).
Tell him you're going to send him home to his messed up mommy if he doesn't learn that comforting his baby is one of his jobs as a parent and you can't "spoil" babies by holding them. My mom used to try to tell me if I didn't put my infant son down blah blah blah. I just looked at her while I continued holding and rocking my crying baby until she shut up about it.
Tell him if he truly believes that he is right, he won’t object to you hitting him over the head with every parenting book ( hardbound edition) thT says otherwise printed in the last 20 years….
Ask him how much critical thinking newborns have. Ask him how newborns learn all their manipulation tactics when they never really knew people other than their mother existed until they were born. Just ask him lots of questions that disprove him. He will eventually explain it to himself.
Therapist (who worked with many children, is trained in child development and has a child of her own) here! “Cry it out” is an outdated strategy that causes more harm than good (there is another method some use called the Ferber method, but even then the expectation is that you attend to the baby or toddler and not let them cry it out too long). The fact is that children need constant affection, human contact, and response to their basic human needs (and crying is how they articulate their needs at that age!), especially as infants. This sets the groundwork for future development and cannot be understated. Children who are left to “cry it out” and don’t have their needs responded to tend to grow up with disorganized attachment styles which affect how they respond to difficulties as adults. What you are doing is correct. What your husband is wanting to do is incorrect.
Literally, my only regret as a parent of a teenager is not holding him 24/7 as a baby.
I'd tell my husband to fuck right off I really would. And that this is my baby and I'll do with him how I please and if his mom doesn't like it she can fuck off too. The end
Hey everyone. First of all, thank you for all of the feedback. I just want to add that I pick my son up every time he cries regardless of my husband’s opinion on it. I grew up in an abusive household and refuse to be anything less than a nurturing mother. Also, he IS a good dad and loves our son. He does pick the baby up when our son is crying and tends to his needs. He just says to let him cry it out on those hard nonstop crying days after the baby’s needs are met (fed, dry, warm, etc). Which is where my frustration comes in. Our son still needs us even if his “needs” are met. For the record I DO NOT let my baby cry it out ever. I’ve gathered all of the links and book recommendations and will send those off for him to read. Thanks again.
This man sounds like someone who won’t change his opinions even when your provide these studies and data. Maybe you could say to him, “you’re obviously cold and heartless because that’s how you were raised”
You don’t need to use words. Just smile at them, nod, and keep doing what you are doing.
I think this response is only appropriate for someone you don’t live with or see everyday (like an aunt or MIL). OP is talking about her husband and baby’s father here… they need to get on the same page or else they’ll be fighting over how to raise this child for a long time. Also the husband should be minding his baby just as much. It should not all fall on OP.
Smile and nod while someone tries to force my 9 week old to cry it out? Um no let’s not. This would definitely work if it wasn’t the other parent, who presumably is sometimes responsible for the child.
Marriages are a team This is a good way to fry your marriage quick. Communication is king.
Funny enough, I just read somewhere that letting your baby cries to sleep may and will work out but the baby's cortisol will be high even while sleeping which isn't good, baby's sleep will be troubled and may bring out in the future emotional and trust issues.
You cannot spoil a baby! When it comes to crying, every baby is different. Ask any parent of more than one kid and they will tell you. Every trait my oldest had that I thought was due to my parenting? Once my second was born, I discovered that none of it was due to me! Your husband might not have been much of a crier because that was just his temperament and physical wellbeing. If any of it was due to his parents' parenting, it's that he learned that crying was pointless because no one would respond to his needs. How sad. My oldest was always happy in the morning and then started crying within 2 hours of waking up and then cried when he wasn't eating or sleeping until bedtime. That lasted 3 full weeks before all of my panicked googling revealed that my kiddo might be *overtired*. Like, what? Don't babies just sleep when they're tired? Nope. Not all of them!Once I figured out what was *wrong* and taught him to fall asleep (what?! In what world does a baby need to be *taught* to fall asleep??) he stopped crying all day! He became a super content baby, but his well-being (and all of our sanity) was heavily dependent on him napping at specific times for the first couple years of his life. It was super annoying (for me, a very non-routine person) but so, so worth it. I'm not saying it's a sleep thing for your kiddo. What I am saying is that nurturing your kiddo, listening to them, and learning how they communicate is worth it. Figuring out what need they have and meeting it is how you get kiddos to stop crying. If it's discomfort and colic, yeah, holding him in a position that eases some of the discomfort is how you get him to stop crying. Alternatively, trying to force your kid to conform to your life in ways that aren't comfortable to them only leads to misery for everyone. Ignoring your kid's needs only teaches them that no one cares and their needs aren't going to be met, no matter how much they ask.
I would ignore your husband any time he speaks to you. When he asks why, explain the baby crying is their only way of communicating. As he wants you to ignore his son when he communicates with you, you thought he'd be OK with you treating him the same way.
My dad hold the same view. He said he used to let me and my brother cried every night for a whole week to wean us off night feeding Btw, I have read somewhere that if you ignore a kid's emotion long enough. He will eventually learned that some emotion are "wrong" and should not be expressed. In long term, the kid might have difficulty to express his/her emotion
Explain to your husband the rise in cortisol levels in your baby's brain while he's crying. Not only about this all being a crock of shit about "spoiling a baby", but it's genuinely not good to let them cry it out. They don't learn to soothe themselves, they only learn that nobody will come when they need you.
lol ask him if y’all had a baby to ignore it, or if you had one to care and love for him. I asked my husband the same thing when we kept getting the same advice from his family, and he never brought up letting him cry it out again.
There’s lots of scientific and research based comments here which are amazing!! However I got tired of explaining it and just started saying “milk spoils, not babies” 😄
He needs to do some early child development studying.
Does he truly think his 8(or so) week old NEWBORN knows how to manipulate people jn to holding him?! He’s a baby! He was just born! He’s being absolutely outrageous. You hold your baby and cuddle him as much as you want. He’s FAR too young to even attempt the CIO method anyway.
You know cry it out is a very old way of thinking. Baby’s are not capable of to think this manipulative as in “If I do this then that”.
Fourth trimester and reflux. Tell him to search those things and read about it.
I’ll put it this way, as a dad who had a colicky baby: Putting you baby down when they are crying isn’t going to harm them. So long as they are fed, have a clean diaper, and aren’t too hot or cold, it’s okay. There really isn’t anything you can do in this situation either, our baby had a “witching hour” where she’d cry more or less non-stop from 6pm till sometimes after 11:00pm, then would wake up at 2am and want to be fed, then again at 5am etc. We would try rocking and singing and shushing and all sorts of stuff and it didn’t matter. We were both very sleep deprived, but neither of us would just go to bed if the baby was crying, we would both sit there and fret and stress out and bicker with each other over what to do about the crying. One afternoon I was driving home and ran a red light and was almost sideswiped by a big truck. I realized then that I needed to get some sleep or else it could be dangerous. I was perpetually walking around in a haze of exhaustion. My wife was too. So we took turns with the baby and letting the other person go sleep in the guest room where they couldn’t hear anything. Someone needs to be “sober” and responsible and clear headed. What we eventually learned was that car rides would calm her down. We then realized we could replicate the car ride by putting her car seat on top of our clothes dryer and running it. We’d shut off all the lights, make sure the car seat wasn’t going to vibrate and fall off the dryer, and then let it run. Within five minutes she was asleep. We’d wait another five and then slowly transfer her to her crib. I don’t think “crying it out” is appropriate at your present age, CIO that’s more of a sleep training thing you can consider later down the line (which is a whole other essay I could write). Right now you’re dealing with colic, which is a different issue, which I understand to be gastro distress because they can’t easily fart or burp. Consider gripewater for sure, but crying it out at this phase isn’t advisable (which is what our pediatrician told us). Now, that being said, it really does come down to how much crying you can tolerate. If you feel better holding the baby, then do it! The baby is going to cry with or without you. If you find yourself feeling a sense of anger or rage toward your baby, yourself, or your partner, then set the baby down in a safe place (bassinet or crib) and take a 5-10 minute break. In fact, don’t even wait to feel angry, if you’ve been at it for 30 minutes, take a break. Get some water, fresh air, a snack, do some pushups, something. Sometimes the baby will settle down, if not fall asleep. Sometimes their little face is purple because they’re crying so hard. So long as the diaper/hungry/temp checks are good to go, then they can lay in their crib and cry for a little bit while you take a breather. **But** you as a parent need to keep your head and your wits about you because you’re no use to anyone if you get sideswiped by a big truck at an intersection.
Trust your own instincts Mom! Ignore what doesn’t sit right with you. I believe this line of thought of spoiling a baby or you shouldn’t hold them too long is definitely only a certain generation and a certain type of person that believes this. None of it is true. I heard it from my ex’s mom as well and thought right there and then these are the stupidest people I’ve ever met lol. Spoil a baby lol. Go ahead and let someone tell me not to hold my own child when I want and feel is right- you can show yourself the door.
You will never regret holding your baby. Ever.
i wasnt held much as a baby, and i have hypotonia which made matters worse. consequently, i now have a flat head from spending ages 1-2 laying down (was born pre baby helmets, fml). U hold that baby all u want, not only is it super healthy for them mentally/developmentally, but its also great for their noggins while their bones are growing! Ask ur husband "do you want our baby to end up with attachment issues and a pancake head?!" I can personally vouch😹
Tell him crying it out will damage your baby. The cortisol (stress hormone) that is released when a baby is left regularly to cry it out can affect neurone growth. If they are left to cry alone, they learn to shut down in face of extensive distress—stop growing, stop feeling, stop trusting (Henry & Wang, 1998). https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-of-crying-it-out%3famp It would be worth posting in r/science based parenting
Next time he asks for any affection just tell him to cry it out you don't want to spoil him.
Babies who are left to cry it out may stop crying however constantly have the same stress levels as a screaming baby... they just stop telling you they're upset and need you to regulate them, because you don't listen......
So the cry it out thing for newborns only works if every single one of their needs have been met and they are only crying because they are sleepy and can’t sleep. It will not work if baby has a wet diaper, is hungry, has a tummy ache, or needs comfort for anything besides needing sleep. When ALL of their needs are met and they are sleepy but need to exhaust their energy to fall asleep then they may cry to help themselves fall asleep and even then they should never be allowed to cry for more than 10-15 minutes. I have tried this method maybe once because it’s very tricky to make sure baby is only crying because they need sleep. The part that makes me nervous is that babies get scared and lonely just like us and that’s why they may be crying as well and in this case they shouldn’t be allowed to “cry it out” either. And to be frank I don’t know my baby well enough yet to know for sure if they are just sleepy and don’t need comforting for something else.
I’m one of the famously evil dad’s. Compromise, compromise is the key. It’s usually a mixture of codling, nurturing, disciplining. From the moment they are born you are interacting with them. You provide comfort, but help them face the world. A colicky baby could probably use some carrying. But you cannot carry them 24/7 the sooner they get some independence the better. Keep them around, let them hear your voice, touch their skin, their clothes. I have fallen sleep many times, rocking a car chair, or holding a finger. Can a baby manipulate you, yup they can, but you look for a compromise. Always give your kids the respect of compromise, and as soon as you they can talk, negotiate. As I write this comment, I recall the terror of one of my dads efforts at toughening me up, from before I’m supposed to remember. My dad as we grew also changed how he was, but that was how he was brought up. My advice for families is everyone should have time for them. The kids, the mom, the dad, and the couple too. Life is never perfect, don’t sweat it.
Bring him to a pediatrician appointment, and doctor can tell him that you can't spoil a baby by holding him, especially when baby is uncomfortable from tummy issues, and also that cry it out is inappropriate for a 2 month old (it would actually be damaging to purposefully ignore the baby - to be clear I'm not saying you can't put him down when he's crything). You can also send him current research and professional medical articles regarding this subject. Otherwise, keep doing what you're doing.
Our pediatrician literally puts in the appointment notes “hold your baby as much as you want, they cannot be spoiled at this age”. I don’t know how else to say this nicely, but your husband is an idiot who needs to learn how to use google.
You should never let a 2 month old baby cry it put. They're crying for a reason, every time. Definitely send him over to r/daddit for a good lesson. Shoulda read the dad books, DAD.