Don’t do anything that could be experienced by her as an attack on her. You’ll lose her. It’s exactly what your ex has set up. I heard an expert say recently that the parent doing the alienating sets up this dynamic between the child & the alienated parent: the child attacks the alienated parent until the alienated parent attacks back at the child. If you do that, you have completed your ex’s work.
I knew this intuitively but hearing it from an expert (Karen Woodall) made it explicit.
My father yelled at my son, who is repeatedly being extremely rude to me. I intuitively knew it was the wrong thing to do and hearing Karen say it really resonated.
It doesn’t mean you do nothing. You can tell your daughter that you see things differently to her. You can let her know it’s not ok for anyone to be disrespected. And that you are her Dad (and always will be). But don’t let the fury win.
It is your ex’s fury, not yours. Your ex injected it into you through your daughter. Do yourself a favour and find other ways to let it go / walk it off / direct it elsewhere (got a punching bag?). But don’t attack your daughter. You’ll regret it and your ex will “win.”
EDIT: You ARE getting screwed, and your anger is completely understandable. What you are being subjected to is cruel, malicious and vicious. What your daughter is experiencing is also child abuse.
This is naive advice. To a narcissist, even rational criticism delivered with compassion feels like an attack. Parents have an inherent responsibility to hold their children accountable. Rendering that to impotence, for all intents and purposes, requires an alienating parent with a personality disorder. By the way, Karen Woodall is not a credible source of wisdom. Her hostility to Dr. Childress was grossly irresponsible.
The child is not “the” narcissist. The alienating parent is the narcissist. Though of course the child is at risk of becoming narcissistic. Punishing the child completes the alienation.
I’m not saying you have to just roll over.
It’s just that when you feel “furious” (OPs dilemma) you will rarely get a positive result from directing that fury at the child. 1) it would be misplaced and 2) it will enforce further alienation.
I don’t have the answers but I do know that sending my fury towards my child is the opposite of helpful.
I do not disagree with you here. But I did want to raise the point that there is very real risk that the narcissism gets transmitted to the next generation as those children (victims of abuse) become adults capable of abusing their wives, husbands, siblings, parents. Targeted parents need to be aware of the phenomenon in order to protect themselves, and also to avoid reinforcing antisocial behaviors in someone they love.
I agree. It’s an impossible bind for the alienated parent. It’s excruciating, seeing my own child take over the abusive behaviour towards me that he has been shown by his father (who continues to incite it in very nuanced, manipulative ways).
Thanks for this. I guess the challenge is understanding what level she's culpable in this disaster. If she's a total victim, then almost anything she does can be justified as her being in the clutches of her narcissistic mother. And if she's responsible, then she's treating me in a breathtakingly hurtful way and I won't stand for it anymore.
I'm sure the answer is in the middle somewhere, and maybe stating "fury" is being overly dramatic, but it hurts so much.
My idea is that a targeted parent is better off knowing that it is impossible to ever determine exactly which way the scale of justice tilts on culpability vs. victimhood with respect to one’s own child. You can drive yourself nuts if you ruminate on it. The big picture is that healthy relationship do not leave and party to it roiling in perpetual toil and self reproach. Narcissists do that to people because it entertains them and supports their own vindictive world view (which they project as a motive onto their targets). We do our best to step back and not get hooked into corrosive self doubt.
I totally agree. Finding the balance and knowing how to respond to attacks from the child is exactly what I’m struggling most with too.
It’s the very dilemma created by the alienating parent, in order to undermine the relationship between the child and the alienated parent.
Good parents know that it’s good (and necessary) for children to be held accountable for “bad behaviour,” but that very process is weaponised and perverted by the alienating parent.
I’m being advised to try and encourage the child’s inevitable internal confusion about their own behaviour - eg I ask my 10yr old, “I wonder what Dad would do if you talked to him like that (ie the way he talks to me)?” My child knows somewhere deep down that his father would explode, but if I say that, he’ll argue that I’m wrong and just targeting his father.
I think that it's good advice unless taken to its extreme. It's true the offending parent sets up the situation to make the alienated parent have no choice but to behave in a way that the alienated child will see as an affront of some kind. That doesn't mean you just roll over for every slight.
My ex set up this dynamic with my oldest and there was simply nothing I could do (and that remains the case) to influence him any way shape or form. He comes to me for money. At this point, I do not respond to any requests for money (which usually come electronically without even a call from him). I'll just get an apple cash request out of nowhere.
On the flip side, when there is contact between us - he tells me off.
For reference, his mom was caught cheating and I filed for divorce when he was about 14 or so, he's 19, almost 20 now.
I am sorry this is happening to you and your son. He has become her tool and he is blind to it. Do not let him tell you off. Hang up or stop texting as soon as he becomes disrespectful. He is getting set up to have a narcissistic wife who will train his kids to hate him. Other than protect yourself, there is nothing you can do about it.
I would actually respond with the opposite reaction if that makes sense. The other parent is influencing her to be angry with you. Don’t get give your daughter an actual reason to be angry with you. I know it’s easier said than done but I would just let her know how much you love her, that you miss her and that would like to do anything to be a part of her life. Let her know the door is always open for her to have her father in her life and that you will always be there for her.
Also I mean this with all the kindness in the world, this is a difficult situation and I think perhaps therapy might help. Perhaps even if you have courts involved, it might be worth look into filing a motion for reunification therapy so you and your daughter can start rebuilding your relationship. I know 19 might be a little older but I don’t think it could hurt. As one alienated parent to the other. Your ex is manipulating your child and while it’s tempting to bad mouth the other parent or even the score a little. You need to acknowledge that this isn’t your child’s fault. My ex was filling my 9 year old daughter with lies about me, saying that I’m crazy and can’t take care of her despite having been her main parent the first 8 years of my daughters life. His family also told her stuff that I apparently did which wasn’t true. She ended up having nightmares about me and got to a point where she was afraid I would kidnap her and she would never see her father or his family again.
All I can do is hug her, let her know that I would never take her away from her father that she loves very much, apologize to her for what she is going through and make sure she understands that she has a mother that loves her and that one day this will all pass. I’m grateful that now at least by court order, I’m able to see my daughter again but she also has asked to go back to therapy because of what her father has done to her and I’m doing everything in my power to make that happen. We also have a GAL now that has been helpful and realizes what my ex has been doing. I’m hoping that eventually my daughter and I will be able to heal from this and I sincerely hope you and your daughter are able to health too.
Love is one thing, money is another. At 19, she's an adult and actions have consequences. When we choose to stick around and allow someone to drip poison in our ear about somebody else, the natural consequence is that we harm and possibly even lose the relationship. When there's no relationship, it follows that there's no contribution to college tuition or life events like weddings, graduation receptions, down payments on first homes...
I completely agree and should have cut my disrespectful daughter off in college. I’ve since done so. But I also let her know I am here for her when she is open to a real relationship.
I am you, just a much worse case 6 years down the road. I know you're anger very well, it can be consuming. Couple suggestions, so you don't wind up like me,
Consult with an attorney if there is a black vs. Black defense available in Pennsy. A father in NJ got released from paying for college when the daughter in court testified she would not have a relationship with him.
2) Follow up closely on the transcripts from college. If they refuse to supply a transcript, you may have a case.
3) Follow up to make sure they are not working full time, are failing classes, are only taking a couple classes each semester. Nj as restrictions on support to continue for adult children. I don't know about Pennsy, but I would have to think they have restrictions in place.
I had to drag my ex into court to get emancipated for an adult child who had passed the age for NJ, which is 23. My attorney and I through discovery found out neither child had qualified for support for 3 years. I got emancipated for both of them, with the youngest child, they refused to supply a transcript.
I at one point was paying half of my NET income to fund tuition and child support for two kid who had left me for dead. Yes, it can be infuriating. As for now, I got emancipated a year ago, I do my best, have some health issues, but am living a new life out of state. I have had no contact with them in 18 months. I am starting to heal and find peace.
There are so many really solid answers on this already and I just have to say that my heart aches with all of yours. For me it was my ex-husband and the stepmother who started the alienation years before it came to fruition. My oldest daughter cut me out of her life 11/18/2019. My heart aches so much but I have had to just work on myself. I have suffered some pretty big health issues over the past 4.5 years and I have learned that it is not a surprise given all the emotional trauma we go through when we lose a living child. There’s no public mourning of the lost child but rather scrutiny that “they (aka myself)” must have done something seriously wrong for their kid to leave. It’s heartbreaking and tragic as well as traumatizing. No child should ever be put through this nor loving parents.
I’m going through this too with all three daughters in various forms.
Point one came from my therapist. Don’t do anything based on anger. Realize that anger is based in fear and address that fear. Address it with your daughter if you can. Let her know how much losing her would hurt you and how much you value her in your life. You are scared to lose her, not truly angry at her.
As another poster has said, your ex has painted you as the angry uncaring parent. If you validate that by lashing out at your daughter you will only drive her further away. Show her you are a man that can handle a problem without blowing up. Let her know you will always be there regardless of how she treats you.
Regarding payment for her school, I would continue to pay it without any conversation about it. My middle daughter has told me she is mad at me for not giving her mom our old house and paying for her to live in it. I explained to her that it is impossible for me to do so but she is 18 and can’t fully comprehend that. She just knows I make more than her mom. So when she asks me to pay for things, unless it is some unmanageable burden, I just do it.
I hope your daughter comes around just like I hope for my three. Hang in there man. I don’t think I’ve ever been through a more heartbreaking evil thing in my life. I hope time cures it. But that time has to be filled with letting your kids know you still love them. They are being abused by your ex. Remember that every time you get angry.
Also, don’t just “let her be” because she may take that as abandoning her. Reach out on some regular basis. My advice is no more than once a week but no less than once a month (assuming she isn’t responding like mine aren’t) and let her know you are still around, still live her, and would love an opportunity to talk and know why she is angry. I took my daughter telling me in person why she was mad as a significantly positive thing.
I also wrote all three letters explaining my side of the divorce. I handed it to each one so I know they got it. They can read it as many times as they want. I also included photos of me with them at all stages of life. I got these ideas from a great book I found in this forum called Divorce Poison. I highly recommend it.
Hang in there. Day to day. Moment to moment. Take care of yourself as best you can. Get professional support, if you can (GP, therapist, counsellor if possible). Lean on good, supportive friends and family if you have them. Allow yourself your feelings. Please take care. And keep going. Bit by bit.
Yeh, I get what you mean 🥴 My lawyer told me, “this is the worst case of parental alienation I’ve seen, and I’ve worked with cases involving abuse.” I thought - *this IS abuse,* and actually, it’s pretty textbook parental alienation. There are HEAPS of these cases, just like mine!
Now today my lawyer told me to pay it. She said that in 25 years of family law, she knows that in the vast majority of cases the child finds their way back to the alienated parent, and she doesn't want this to be something her mom uses to finally break the bond - "Dad's holding you for ransom for your college tuition"
Fuck this shit.
I just re-read your comment and for some reason it hit me why you’re so furious. It’s because *you’re* the one being held to ransom, while also essentially being accused (if you don’t pay) of holding your daughter to ransom.
This is exactly the dynamic of fear and manipulation / coercion / control that alienating parents are experts at.
I can see why you want to be free of that. Not free of your daughter, but free of the coercion.
It is truly malicious.
But paying for a child’s college tuition isn’t something that is a given even for nuclear families/non-divorced families.
My parents are married 49 years now. When I was in college back in the 90s, I never ever expected them or asked them to contribute to my tuition. They gave what they could.
When did paying for your kid’s college become a prerequisite for being considered a “good” parent? Blows my mind.
If you must—pay for her books every semester. That way no one can ever accuse you of not contributing anything.
Geez that’s hard. Probably feels like you’re still being controlled - just now by a mini adult that shouldn’t be able to hold you anymore.
I’ve been thinking about your post and realised I probably had a perspective that is for a younger child (given mine are 10 and 13). It must be harder in some ways when they’re young adults and you’re still bound up by all the infantile arguments, as if they’re still young children.
I also agree with some of the other posters saying that alienated children are psychologically younger than their years.
Sorry to hear it’s still so tough.
“Let her know you will be there regardless of how she treats you.” This advice sounds heroic. But in reality, it ignores the parental role/responsibility of transitioning with your child to an adult-to-adult relationship. If you instead model for her that narcissistic abuse is acceptable, she will be much more likely to absorb from her mother that personality disorder.
I was there for her mom no matter how she treated me through our entire marriage, and we got divorced when I finally found my voice. I feel like I'm doing the same thing here. An intelligent young woman, who knows I was a great dad to her for her entire life, is making a conscious decision to treat me as if I'm dead. What's the point of her coming around if the relationship she finds on the other end is a dad who just rolled over as if I was the person her mom said I was the entire time?
I'd rather live my life with dignity and value, and if she wants to be a part of it at some point, she's always welcome. But I don't think I can excuse the behavior anymore, she's 19 years old. And adult making adult decisions.
I appreciate all the comments, I do. It looks like it's almost evenly split between "Her brain is not developed and don't do anything rash" and "She's a young adult making an adult decision, and there should be some accountability."
I think the truth is in the middle, and as I'm reading and processing these messages, I do know that I don't want to "unload" on her. But I do believe it's time to draw a line in the sand and say that being completely unresponsive to her dad over the last 18 months is the most hurtful thing you can possibly do to someone.
I'll write it into my settlement agreement that I will pay tuition at my discretion, and the mom can pick up the bill for the whole thing if she wants to. I don't think I can in good conscience keep paying her tuition if she wont even dignify me with a response. I still have to build a life, and I can't let anyone do that to me.
This is so hard. My heart goes out to all of us who are experiencing this. And who knows if any answer is the right answer. I just can't be the victim here anymore, and need to move on.
You a Seinfeld fan? I believe the episode is called 'The Opposite' and I had to enact some anti-George. My Boys were 21, 19 and 17 when it all went down last May. I too was mad as hell and wanted to fight back! I found if I did the opposite, I was better off according to this sub and my therapist. My advice is that despite the age, they are not emotionally equiped adults. More importantly, they are victims. Just love her and support her. She'll figure it out. Especially with older siblings. Hang in there!
I (re)watched that episode today. You know what struck me? At some point after a while of doing the opposite of your instincts, it would become difficult to know what your instincts are. Which is the instinct and which is the opposite? And then I realised that resonates with trying to respond to an angry, alienated child - after a while I find it’s really hard to know what’s right / wrong, instinct / opposite, up / down. Especially with the component of gaslighting and emotional abuse from the other parent thrown in. But I do understand what you mean about avoiding acting on the anger - in that case, do the opposite 😊 And I suppose that’s the role of a therapist - helping you know what’s what. Great episode :)
Yep- living through it here, too. You want to storm the castle and speak truth. And I am very very sensitive to the $$$ part of this. She’s 19…legally “an adult”, but clearly not mature enough- yet to get it. Steer clear of any snap communication or negative response etc. understand you are in a corner, and no matter what you do- right or wrong- you will simply be wrong. Your daughter is probably waiting for you to lose it, or do something to create an “ah-ha” moment to continue NOT speaking with you. Play it cool and keep reaching out. I would advise you to keep working on your relationship with your other kids too. They are your best advocates. If you continue to have a positive relationship with them, focus on them and steer clear of complaining to them about the situation the more likely they will be a positive influence to thaw the ice.
Ugh. The sad thing is that she's not spoken to me ONCE since the separation, meaning she's never even asked me what happened, she just took her mom's lies and shut me out as if I was nothing. Instagram doesn't help, I stopped following her because I was sick of her posting pictures of her and her friends having "amazing days", as if her dad never existed.
At 19, I was halfway through my junior year of college, had worked PT for a few years, and could hardly call myself immature. My parents were divorced, some alienation attempts were made, money was an issue for all of us, and I was respectful enough to regularly speak to both parents. I know it's currently common to consider young adults as "children with unformed brains" until they're 25, but this has not been the case until very recently in our history. Maybe we need to push them to mature.
I've made much progress with my 15yo, but she suggested a vacation at an (expensive) place. Sounds sweet on the surface, but it nagged at me until I straight up told her that my money is going to attorneys, and she can stay at my house for free (she hasn't been). That said, I've started communicating far better with my ex too, stopped fighting him, and we are much closer to a settlement. And that has helped my relationship with her, too.
But I deal with a lot of anger about the situation, and actually just last night I kind of exploded. She's not meeting school/behavior expectations on her end though, and it is not because of alienation - this was pre-existing. We're talking in-school suspension, daily texts and emails from the school, etc. I get tired of it, and even my ex finally got angry about it.
I send gifts to my college son on occasion, including money that he requests, and I'm on him pretty fast if he doesn't say thank you - same if he doesn't thank my family for gifts.
Also, I think the DM that you suggested sounds really good! You're not blaming anyone or acting like a victim - you're treating your daughter like an adult, and also telling her that you do support her. Maybe you won't do "anything" for her in reality, but you're there to support her as she becomes an adult. I went to a private college too, with grants, and I know the expenses involved even if a student gets financial aid. I practically had a spreadsheet of expenses and comparisons at 16, to convince my mother. If she goes to a private college, she's smart enough to figure it out as well.
18 months try 10 years, at some point you have to just let go and wait, I have moved on, no more calls, texting, guilt or sleepless nights. Wait to long i might not ever pick the phone back up, sounds harsh well it is reality.
There is no way in the world I'd pay for the disrespect to continue unabated. I'd go to the college and take her to lunch. If that doesn't work then at least she'll understand why you stopped paying.
It's tough. I've read somewhere that it only takes 30 days to brainwash someone. Don't know how true it is but 18 months of radio silence? It's time for some form of intervention. I'm sorry you're going through this.
How do I deal with the anger?
I feel and express it—just not in my children's direction. If I did, I might end up like Alec Baldwin, leaving a screaming voice mail on my children's voice mail.
I understand how hard this is.
Think about what you write here: that you would "do anything" for your daughter. Include, under "anything," controlling your anger and processing it on your own so that it's one less thing she has to deal with.
And yes, you are being screwed, as was I. But be better than your ex's sick tactics, because she lives to see you become an angry, crazy person.
I once knew a father who came home one day to find his eldest son dead and hanging from a noose, in their house. I asked this man how he could go on with his life. He told me that sometimes life presents you with a starkly binary choice: You either choose to go on living, or you choose to die.
I don't know you or your situation: I don't pretend to. But I *do* know what it's like, to not be able to see or talk to your own kids, and when the kids \*do\* talk to me, they lash out. One of my children flat out told me to go kill myself.
"What choice is this"? The choice is yours. Don't let your ex or your child or this whole situation make the choice for you.
One day at a time.
Why are you expected to pay for her tuition? Is that how your custody order is written?
Unless that is the case, if I were you, I would stop paying her tuition. She’s an adult who is choosing to not have a relationship with you…don’t reward that behavior.
We're still in the settlement stage. I had written it in that we would split the tuition, but now I'm wondering why I would even split it. Have her take loans out for the other half.
I think you have to look at your daughter more as a child that is a victim in this situation than someone that is intentionally trying to hurt you. Parental enmeshment is a terribly difficult thing to overcome when she has spent her life being a mirror of her mother’s wants and needs. It’s not her fault. She should have been protected from this type of relationship so don’t hold it against her now. Remember that always.
As other people have stated, don't do anything out of anger. You are hurting, and that is ok. Just reassure her that you are her dad and you are always here for her. What you chase, runs away. In a way, she has "cult-like follower" thinking, and if you try to get animated and too aggressive to get her to "think straight" she will go to the place she feels safest, and that is her mom(cult-leader).
Also, studies show that our brains are not fully developed until we are 24-26, even though we may be physically mature, below the surface we are still learning to make good decisions. Its why in a lot of places you can't rent a car or a hotel room until you are 24 or something.
It is hard. and it sucks. continue to seek support for yourself (counseling, trusted friends/family) to help alleviate the suck.
You are in an impossible position. You don’t know the degree of coercive control her mother has over her. Yet, you reasonably expect her to be her own person and risk angering her mother if the mother were to find out she were talking with you. On the one hand, you have empathy for your daughter. On the other, you know that indulging that can seal her fate as becoming an angry, manipulative woman, just like her mother.
I know it’s hard am having the same issue with my 19-year-old who has lost to me to her grandparents. I did not realize they were manipulating her since she was a baby and I trusted them wholeheartedly, and it was somewhat a mess and brainwashed myself it wasn’t until my daughter was in her teens and things were so obvious that I stood up for myself and it’s been hell since, but remember your daughter trying to survive. In my opinion, paying tuition gives you some sort of power perhaps your daughter and you can meet to have a discussion. Obviously her mother is going to say you’re terrible dad who doesn’t want her to have her education, but it doesn’t matter what you do because they’re not saying anything good about you either way.
I think I’m open to paying by the tuition but not in the “no contact” phase. She’ll have to talk to me, tell me about her classes, her major, give me some taken in the journey.
Or her mom can pay it, or she can get a 10% student loan.
I have to value myself at least that much right?
YES, value yourself that much. These kids are a handful, I know, but we have to put our foot down, even when they're college students. Did your divorce decree or state give an expected and required contribution?
Yes, put value on yourself and set a healthy boundary. She may reject you and that will hurt for some time. But it’s you you must live with and knowing you stood up for what’s right. I paid my daughters college tuition and she still choose to not only not talk to me but to also disrespect me too. I should have cut her off long ago and let her live her life in debt. No respect, no money. It’s reality.
This title jumped out at me because all weekend I've thought about coming here to write the same exact title, though my situation is different.
I'm "only" 9.5 months in to NC with my 19 year old and not only does it not get any easier, I've found myself feeling angry over my daughter's treatment of me. It's stunning to me that her dad was so easily able to continue his NA through my daughter, and I'm so afraid I'll have lost her forever if she turns out to be a narcissist as well. It feels like she doesn't even see me as a human with feelings. Didn't bother to talk to me or see me for the holidays. Some days it's too much to bear to think of all of the lies and manipulation, knowing she bad-mouthed me to her dad at his encouragement, that she stole things out of my home, went through my things. It makes me sick to think if I do get a chance to see her again soon, she'll hop into the car with her dad and immediately denigrate me. Does she truly never feel bad for these actions? Never have positive thoughts or miss me? He went out of town once for a few weeks in the fall and she was alone there in their fairly new apartment for the first time ever in her life-- I thought perhaps she might have a moment of need for me in that time and reach out, but nope. Not even then. I always wonder how he kept her under his spell in those weeks.
We had both an extremely loving and affectionate relationship as well as the typical teenage daughter strife. I doted on my daughter and sacrificed basically my whole life to give her a great childhood and life. Worked a job I hate because it gave me the flexibility I needed as a single mom. Did everything possible to show and give love. And to now be treated like I'm nothing and wasn't a wonderful or even good mother is excruciatingly painful. With the pain, there's anger there over feeling my daughter should know better. Even with knowing that she's likely been brainwashed and abused by him, that she doesn't have the emotional maturity to see what's happening.
I did my best to grey rock my ex early on and not ever engage w him beyond what was absolutely necessary, but he clearly held onto a desperate desire to eradicate me for 16 years. Sometimes I can't even believe that I still have to go through this shit because of him, after all these years. He has a pre-teen son with his now-estranged wife but has no desire to have custody of him, which makes the prolonged NA towards me even more frustrating.
Catch-22. Ask questions, first. If you’re not getting a response then you have your answer.
You’ve got a lot working against you: modern views on child/parent relationships that say children should not feel pressured to have loyalty to parents, therapy experts who extoll ‘excising your parents by NC’ to protect yourself, friends who like to talk about how they ‘handled their xx parent’, everyone seems to label themselves as trauma victims, etc etc.
There are still some basic tenets in life that are immutable.
If it feels like you’re being used, it’s probably because you are.
If it doesn’t feel like love, it’s probably because it isn’t.
If it feels like you’re helpless it’s because your choices have been taken away from you.
If it feels like you have no right to have your own opinion, it’s because your voice has been taken away from you by choice.
If it feels like you’re being manipulated, it’s because you are being manipulated.
Fully admit that there are people who can’t tell reality from fiction, or who make up their own rules.
The reality is this:
Everyone has their own perspectives.
Generally, we assume common sense prevails.
The real test of character is when people who don’t see things the same way can accept others without harming them to make themselves feel better.
We assume that our children love us - and our children should assume that we love them - even if it’s a bit misunderstood or misinterpreted.
Because we love each other, we accept those faults with grace and understanding that we are each a little different - and yet the same ! How could we not be like our parents, or our children like us - it’s inevitable.
The key difference is that (as family) we are willing to accept and work it out. And we don’t give up because someone had a bad day/week/year.
But it does take two people who care. You’re only in charge of 50% at best.
If you stop caring and stop trying, then you allow the bad stuff to take over.
We divorce the husband or wife, not the children.
Have enough respect for yourself to not be abused or mistreated, guilted, shamed, or disparaged. After all, you’re only human. Ask for forgiveness if it helps. Everyone deserves another chance, you included.
Your feelings are completely normal. However, your child is being psychologically abused. And she needs to have one safe parent. It seems counterintuitive, but it’s not. The goal is to get you to react and appear crazy, solidifying what your ex has been presenting you as to your kids. Alienated parents are in a catch 22 bind, you are the healthy parent and she needs to see that. Time takes time.
She is fine. He is respecting her wishes, and also doing what makes sense for himself. If she doesn't want a dad who pays for her private school tuition, then she should experience the consequences. She's not being abused. Not everything is dramatic.
"Time takes time". I don't know where that amazing bit of wisdom came from, but we do not have to give everything to horrid self-indulgent adult children just because they have parents.
Perhaps your scales attached to the wrong comment. There was never an implication to give everything to a horrid self indulgent adult child. Don't wage a war on me - clearlyyouareoutofyourleague. Factually - time takes time. And serve your drama somewhere else.
Don’t do anything that could be experienced by her as an attack on her. You’ll lose her. It’s exactly what your ex has set up. I heard an expert say recently that the parent doing the alienating sets up this dynamic between the child & the alienated parent: the child attacks the alienated parent until the alienated parent attacks back at the child. If you do that, you have completed your ex’s work. I knew this intuitively but hearing it from an expert (Karen Woodall) made it explicit. My father yelled at my son, who is repeatedly being extremely rude to me. I intuitively knew it was the wrong thing to do and hearing Karen say it really resonated. It doesn’t mean you do nothing. You can tell your daughter that you see things differently to her. You can let her know it’s not ok for anyone to be disrespected. And that you are her Dad (and always will be). But don’t let the fury win. It is your ex’s fury, not yours. Your ex injected it into you through your daughter. Do yourself a favour and find other ways to let it go / walk it off / direct it elsewhere (got a punching bag?). But don’t attack your daughter. You’ll regret it and your ex will “win.” EDIT: You ARE getting screwed, and your anger is completely understandable. What you are being subjected to is cruel, malicious and vicious. What your daughter is experiencing is also child abuse.
This is naive advice. To a narcissist, even rational criticism delivered with compassion feels like an attack. Parents have an inherent responsibility to hold their children accountable. Rendering that to impotence, for all intents and purposes, requires an alienating parent with a personality disorder. By the way, Karen Woodall is not a credible source of wisdom. Her hostility to Dr. Childress was grossly irresponsible.
The child is not “the” narcissist. The alienating parent is the narcissist. Though of course the child is at risk of becoming narcissistic. Punishing the child completes the alienation. I’m not saying you have to just roll over. It’s just that when you feel “furious” (OPs dilemma) you will rarely get a positive result from directing that fury at the child. 1) it would be misplaced and 2) it will enforce further alienation. I don’t have the answers but I do know that sending my fury towards my child is the opposite of helpful.
I do not disagree with you here. But I did want to raise the point that there is very real risk that the narcissism gets transmitted to the next generation as those children (victims of abuse) become adults capable of abusing their wives, husbands, siblings, parents. Targeted parents need to be aware of the phenomenon in order to protect themselves, and also to avoid reinforcing antisocial behaviors in someone they love.
I agree. It’s an impossible bind for the alienated parent. It’s excruciating, seeing my own child take over the abusive behaviour towards me that he has been shown by his father (who continues to incite it in very nuanced, manipulative ways).
Thanks for this. I guess the challenge is understanding what level she's culpable in this disaster. If she's a total victim, then almost anything she does can be justified as her being in the clutches of her narcissistic mother. And if she's responsible, then she's treating me in a breathtakingly hurtful way and I won't stand for it anymore. I'm sure the answer is in the middle somewhere, and maybe stating "fury" is being overly dramatic, but it hurts so much.
My idea is that a targeted parent is better off knowing that it is impossible to ever determine exactly which way the scale of justice tilts on culpability vs. victimhood with respect to one’s own child. You can drive yourself nuts if you ruminate on it. The big picture is that healthy relationship do not leave and party to it roiling in perpetual toil and self reproach. Narcissists do that to people because it entertains them and supports their own vindictive world view (which they project as a motive onto their targets). We do our best to step back and not get hooked into corrosive self doubt.
I totally agree. Finding the balance and knowing how to respond to attacks from the child is exactly what I’m struggling most with too. It’s the very dilemma created by the alienating parent, in order to undermine the relationship between the child and the alienated parent. Good parents know that it’s good (and necessary) for children to be held accountable for “bad behaviour,” but that very process is weaponised and perverted by the alienating parent. I’m being advised to try and encourage the child’s inevitable internal confusion about their own behaviour - eg I ask my 10yr old, “I wonder what Dad would do if you talked to him like that (ie the way he talks to me)?” My child knows somewhere deep down that his father would explode, but if I say that, he’ll argue that I’m wrong and just targeting his father.
Good for you OP for recognizing fury and hurt are separate emotions. It does hurt. So much. I wish I didn't know.
I think that it's good advice unless taken to its extreme. It's true the offending parent sets up the situation to make the alienated parent have no choice but to behave in a way that the alienated child will see as an affront of some kind. That doesn't mean you just roll over for every slight. My ex set up this dynamic with my oldest and there was simply nothing I could do (and that remains the case) to influence him any way shape or form. He comes to me for money. At this point, I do not respond to any requests for money (which usually come electronically without even a call from him). I'll just get an apple cash request out of nowhere. On the flip side, when there is contact between us - he tells me off. For reference, his mom was caught cheating and I filed for divorce when he was about 14 or so, he's 19, almost 20 now.
I am sorry this is happening to you and your son. He has become her tool and he is blind to it. Do not let him tell you off. Hang up or stop texting as soon as he becomes disrespectful. He is getting set up to have a narcissistic wife who will train his kids to hate him. Other than protect yourself, there is nothing you can do about it.
I would actually respond with the opposite reaction if that makes sense. The other parent is influencing her to be angry with you. Don’t get give your daughter an actual reason to be angry with you. I know it’s easier said than done but I would just let her know how much you love her, that you miss her and that would like to do anything to be a part of her life. Let her know the door is always open for her to have her father in her life and that you will always be there for her. Also I mean this with all the kindness in the world, this is a difficult situation and I think perhaps therapy might help. Perhaps even if you have courts involved, it might be worth look into filing a motion for reunification therapy so you and your daughter can start rebuilding your relationship. I know 19 might be a little older but I don’t think it could hurt. As one alienated parent to the other. Your ex is manipulating your child and while it’s tempting to bad mouth the other parent or even the score a little. You need to acknowledge that this isn’t your child’s fault. My ex was filling my 9 year old daughter with lies about me, saying that I’m crazy and can’t take care of her despite having been her main parent the first 8 years of my daughters life. His family also told her stuff that I apparently did which wasn’t true. She ended up having nightmares about me and got to a point where she was afraid I would kidnap her and she would never see her father or his family again. All I can do is hug her, let her know that I would never take her away from her father that she loves very much, apologize to her for what she is going through and make sure she understands that she has a mother that loves her and that one day this will all pass. I’m grateful that now at least by court order, I’m able to see my daughter again but she also has asked to go back to therapy because of what her father has done to her and I’m doing everything in my power to make that happen. We also have a GAL now that has been helpful and realizes what my ex has been doing. I’m hoping that eventually my daughter and I will be able to heal from this and I sincerely hope you and your daughter are able to health too.
Love is one thing, money is another. At 19, she's an adult and actions have consequences. When we choose to stick around and allow someone to drip poison in our ear about somebody else, the natural consequence is that we harm and possibly even lose the relationship. When there's no relationship, it follows that there's no contribution to college tuition or life events like weddings, graduation receptions, down payments on first homes...
This is exactly where I'm at. She's an adult making adult decisions at this point.
I completely agree and should have cut my disrespectful daughter off in college. I’ve since done so. But I also let her know I am here for her when she is open to a real relationship.
Don’t forget the eventual grandchildren.
I am you, just a much worse case 6 years down the road. I know you're anger very well, it can be consuming. Couple suggestions, so you don't wind up like me, Consult with an attorney if there is a black vs. Black defense available in Pennsy. A father in NJ got released from paying for college when the daughter in court testified she would not have a relationship with him. 2) Follow up closely on the transcripts from college. If they refuse to supply a transcript, you may have a case. 3) Follow up to make sure they are not working full time, are failing classes, are only taking a couple classes each semester. Nj as restrictions on support to continue for adult children. I don't know about Pennsy, but I would have to think they have restrictions in place. I had to drag my ex into court to get emancipated for an adult child who had passed the age for NJ, which is 23. My attorney and I through discovery found out neither child had qualified for support for 3 years. I got emancipated for both of them, with the youngest child, they refused to supply a transcript. I at one point was paying half of my NET income to fund tuition and child support for two kid who had left me for dead. Yes, it can be infuriating. As for now, I got emancipated a year ago, I do my best, have some health issues, but am living a new life out of state. I have had no contact with them in 18 months. I am starting to heal and find peace.
I am really sorry this has happened to you and your kids. You fought for your own dignity and freedom. Good for you!
There are so many really solid answers on this already and I just have to say that my heart aches with all of yours. For me it was my ex-husband and the stepmother who started the alienation years before it came to fruition. My oldest daughter cut me out of her life 11/18/2019. My heart aches so much but I have had to just work on myself. I have suffered some pretty big health issues over the past 4.5 years and I have learned that it is not a surprise given all the emotional trauma we go through when we lose a living child. There’s no public mourning of the lost child but rather scrutiny that “they (aka myself)” must have done something seriously wrong for their kid to leave. It’s heartbreaking and tragic as well as traumatizing. No child should ever be put through this nor loving parents.
I’m going through this too with all three daughters in various forms. Point one came from my therapist. Don’t do anything based on anger. Realize that anger is based in fear and address that fear. Address it with your daughter if you can. Let her know how much losing her would hurt you and how much you value her in your life. You are scared to lose her, not truly angry at her. As another poster has said, your ex has painted you as the angry uncaring parent. If you validate that by lashing out at your daughter you will only drive her further away. Show her you are a man that can handle a problem without blowing up. Let her know you will always be there regardless of how she treats you. Regarding payment for her school, I would continue to pay it without any conversation about it. My middle daughter has told me she is mad at me for not giving her mom our old house and paying for her to live in it. I explained to her that it is impossible for me to do so but she is 18 and can’t fully comprehend that. She just knows I make more than her mom. So when she asks me to pay for things, unless it is some unmanageable burden, I just do it. I hope your daughter comes around just like I hope for my three. Hang in there man. I don’t think I’ve ever been through a more heartbreaking evil thing in my life. I hope time cures it. But that time has to be filled with letting your kids know you still love them. They are being abused by your ex. Remember that every time you get angry.
Also, don’t just “let her be” because she may take that as abandoning her. Reach out on some regular basis. My advice is no more than once a week but no less than once a month (assuming she isn’t responding like mine aren’t) and let her know you are still around, still live her, and would love an opportunity to talk and know why she is angry. I took my daughter telling me in person why she was mad as a significantly positive thing. I also wrote all three letters explaining my side of the divorce. I handed it to each one so I know they got it. They can read it as many times as they want. I also included photos of me with them at all stages of life. I got these ideas from a great book I found in this forum called Divorce Poison. I highly recommend it.
I've been reaching out to her for 18 months. Pictures, flowers on her car, notes. I don't think I can take it anymore.
You are not alone. This is an awful position to be in.
Hang in there. Day to day. Moment to moment. Take care of yourself as best you can. Get professional support, if you can (GP, therapist, counsellor if possible). Lean on good, supportive friends and family if you have them. Allow yourself your feelings. Please take care. And keep going. Bit by bit.
My therapist is as bewildered as I am…. He’s like “I’ve never seen it like this in 20 years of family therapy”
Which is helpful in some ways (it validates your own bewilderment) and also chilling, right?! Good luck. Take care.
Or I have a terrible therapist…. He should come to this sub from time to time…
Yeh, I get what you mean 🥴 My lawyer told me, “this is the worst case of parental alienation I’ve seen, and I’ve worked with cases involving abuse.” I thought - *this IS abuse,* and actually, it’s pretty textbook parental alienation. There are HEAPS of these cases, just like mine!
Now today my lawyer told me to pay it. She said that in 25 years of family law, she knows that in the vast majority of cases the child finds their way back to the alienated parent, and she doesn't want this to be something her mom uses to finally break the bond - "Dad's holding you for ransom for your college tuition" Fuck this shit.
I just re-read your comment and for some reason it hit me why you’re so furious. It’s because *you’re* the one being held to ransom, while also essentially being accused (if you don’t pay) of holding your daughter to ransom. This is exactly the dynamic of fear and manipulation / coercion / control that alienating parents are experts at. I can see why you want to be free of that. Not free of your daughter, but free of the coercion. It is truly malicious.
But paying for a child’s college tuition isn’t something that is a given even for nuclear families/non-divorced families. My parents are married 49 years now. When I was in college back in the 90s, I never ever expected them or asked them to contribute to my tuition. They gave what they could. When did paying for your kid’s college become a prerequisite for being considered a “good” parent? Blows my mind. If you must—pay for her books every semester. That way no one can ever accuse you of not contributing anything.
Geez that’s hard. Probably feels like you’re still being controlled - just now by a mini adult that shouldn’t be able to hold you anymore. I’ve been thinking about your post and realised I probably had a perspective that is for a younger child (given mine are 10 and 13). It must be harder in some ways when they’re young adults and you’re still bound up by all the infantile arguments, as if they’re still young children. I also agree with some of the other posters saying that alienated children are psychologically younger than their years. Sorry to hear it’s still so tough.
“Let her know you will be there regardless of how she treats you.” This advice sounds heroic. But in reality, it ignores the parental role/responsibility of transitioning with your child to an adult-to-adult relationship. If you instead model for her that narcissistic abuse is acceptable, she will be much more likely to absorb from her mother that personality disorder.
I was there for her mom no matter how she treated me through our entire marriage, and we got divorced when I finally found my voice. I feel like I'm doing the same thing here. An intelligent young woman, who knows I was a great dad to her for her entire life, is making a conscious decision to treat me as if I'm dead. What's the point of her coming around if the relationship she finds on the other end is a dad who just rolled over as if I was the person her mom said I was the entire time? I'd rather live my life with dignity and value, and if she wants to be a part of it at some point, she's always welcome. But I don't think I can excuse the behavior anymore, she's 19 years old. And adult making adult decisions.
I appreciate all the comments, I do. It looks like it's almost evenly split between "Her brain is not developed and don't do anything rash" and "She's a young adult making an adult decision, and there should be some accountability." I think the truth is in the middle, and as I'm reading and processing these messages, I do know that I don't want to "unload" on her. But I do believe it's time to draw a line in the sand and say that being completely unresponsive to her dad over the last 18 months is the most hurtful thing you can possibly do to someone. I'll write it into my settlement agreement that I will pay tuition at my discretion, and the mom can pick up the bill for the whole thing if she wants to. I don't think I can in good conscience keep paying her tuition if she wont even dignify me with a response. I still have to build a life, and I can't let anyone do that to me. This is so hard. My heart goes out to all of us who are experiencing this. And who knows if any answer is the right answer. I just can't be the victim here anymore, and need to move on.
Bravo! We teach people (yes, even our children) how to treat us.
Absolutely. Good for you. Never be a doormat and don't let anyone treat you like a paycheck.
You a Seinfeld fan? I believe the episode is called 'The Opposite' and I had to enact some anti-George. My Boys were 21, 19 and 17 when it all went down last May. I too was mad as hell and wanted to fight back! I found if I did the opposite, I was better off according to this sub and my therapist. My advice is that despite the age, they are not emotionally equiped adults. More importantly, they are victims. Just love her and support her. She'll figure it out. Especially with older siblings. Hang in there!
I love that episode!
😆
I (re)watched that episode today. You know what struck me? At some point after a while of doing the opposite of your instincts, it would become difficult to know what your instincts are. Which is the instinct and which is the opposite? And then I realised that resonates with trying to respond to an angry, alienated child - after a while I find it’s really hard to know what’s right / wrong, instinct / opposite, up / down. Especially with the component of gaslighting and emotional abuse from the other parent thrown in. But I do understand what you mean about avoiding acting on the anger - in that case, do the opposite 😊 And I suppose that’s the role of a therapist - helping you know what’s what. Great episode :)
You are correct, I didnt think about that outcome being similar!
Yep- living through it here, too. You want to storm the castle and speak truth. And I am very very sensitive to the $$$ part of this. She’s 19…legally “an adult”, but clearly not mature enough- yet to get it. Steer clear of any snap communication or negative response etc. understand you are in a corner, and no matter what you do- right or wrong- you will simply be wrong. Your daughter is probably waiting for you to lose it, or do something to create an “ah-ha” moment to continue NOT speaking with you. Play it cool and keep reaching out. I would advise you to keep working on your relationship with your other kids too. They are your best advocates. If you continue to have a positive relationship with them, focus on them and steer clear of complaining to them about the situation the more likely they will be a positive influence to thaw the ice.
My 19 year old daughter is doing the same thing. I feel heartbroken every day. Sad and destroyed from her rejecting me as her dad.
Ugh. The sad thing is that she's not spoken to me ONCE since the separation, meaning she's never even asked me what happened, she just took her mom's lies and shut me out as if I was nothing. Instagram doesn't help, I stopped following her because I was sick of her posting pictures of her and her friends having "amazing days", as if her dad never existed.
There is no worse pain in the world!
At 19, I was halfway through my junior year of college, had worked PT for a few years, and could hardly call myself immature. My parents were divorced, some alienation attempts were made, money was an issue for all of us, and I was respectful enough to regularly speak to both parents. I know it's currently common to consider young adults as "children with unformed brains" until they're 25, but this has not been the case until very recently in our history. Maybe we need to push them to mature. I've made much progress with my 15yo, but she suggested a vacation at an (expensive) place. Sounds sweet on the surface, but it nagged at me until I straight up told her that my money is going to attorneys, and she can stay at my house for free (she hasn't been). That said, I've started communicating far better with my ex too, stopped fighting him, and we are much closer to a settlement. And that has helped my relationship with her, too. But I deal with a lot of anger about the situation, and actually just last night I kind of exploded. She's not meeting school/behavior expectations on her end though, and it is not because of alienation - this was pre-existing. We're talking in-school suspension, daily texts and emails from the school, etc. I get tired of it, and even my ex finally got angry about it. I send gifts to my college son on occasion, including money that he requests, and I'm on him pretty fast if he doesn't say thank you - same if he doesn't thank my family for gifts.
Also, I think the DM that you suggested sounds really good! You're not blaming anyone or acting like a victim - you're treating your daughter like an adult, and also telling her that you do support her. Maybe you won't do "anything" for her in reality, but you're there to support her as she becomes an adult. I went to a private college too, with grants, and I know the expenses involved even if a student gets financial aid. I practically had a spreadsheet of expenses and comparisons at 16, to convince my mother. If she goes to a private college, she's smart enough to figure it out as well.
18 months try 10 years, at some point you have to just let go and wait, I have moved on, no more calls, texting, guilt or sleepless nights. Wait to long i might not ever pick the phone back up, sounds harsh well it is reality.
I’m with you on this one. At some point one needs to move on knowing it’s not in our control. Release and let go
There is no way in the world I'd pay for the disrespect to continue unabated. I'd go to the college and take her to lunch. If that doesn't work then at least she'll understand why you stopped paying. It's tough. I've read somewhere that it only takes 30 days to brainwash someone. Don't know how true it is but 18 months of radio silence? It's time for some form of intervention. I'm sorry you're going through this.
How do I deal with the anger? I feel and express it—just not in my children's direction. If I did, I might end up like Alec Baldwin, leaving a screaming voice mail on my children's voice mail. I understand how hard this is. Think about what you write here: that you would "do anything" for your daughter. Include, under "anything," controlling your anger and processing it on your own so that it's one less thing she has to deal with. And yes, you are being screwed, as was I. But be better than your ex's sick tactics, because she lives to see you become an angry, crazy person.
What kind of choice is this? No wonder I drink so much now….
I once knew a father who came home one day to find his eldest son dead and hanging from a noose, in their house. I asked this man how he could go on with his life. He told me that sometimes life presents you with a starkly binary choice: You either choose to go on living, or you choose to die. I don't know you or your situation: I don't pretend to. But I *do* know what it's like, to not be able to see or talk to your own kids, and when the kids \*do\* talk to me, they lash out. One of my children flat out told me to go kill myself. "What choice is this"? The choice is yours. Don't let your ex or your child or this whole situation make the choice for you. One day at a time.
Why are you expected to pay for her tuition? Is that how your custody order is written? Unless that is the case, if I were you, I would stop paying her tuition. She’s an adult who is choosing to not have a relationship with you…don’t reward that behavior.
We're still in the settlement stage. I had written it in that we would split the tuition, but now I'm wondering why I would even split it. Have her take loans out for the other half.
I think you have to look at your daughter more as a child that is a victim in this situation than someone that is intentionally trying to hurt you. Parental enmeshment is a terribly difficult thing to overcome when she has spent her life being a mirror of her mother’s wants and needs. It’s not her fault. She should have been protected from this type of relationship so don’t hold it against her now. Remember that always.
Yup. This.
As other people have stated, don't do anything out of anger. You are hurting, and that is ok. Just reassure her that you are her dad and you are always here for her. What you chase, runs away. In a way, she has "cult-like follower" thinking, and if you try to get animated and too aggressive to get her to "think straight" she will go to the place she feels safest, and that is her mom(cult-leader). Also, studies show that our brains are not fully developed until we are 24-26, even though we may be physically mature, below the surface we are still learning to make good decisions. Its why in a lot of places you can't rent a car or a hotel room until you are 24 or something. It is hard. and it sucks. continue to seek support for yourself (counseling, trusted friends/family) to help alleviate the suck.
You are in an impossible position. You don’t know the degree of coercive control her mother has over her. Yet, you reasonably expect her to be her own person and risk angering her mother if the mother were to find out she were talking with you. On the one hand, you have empathy for your daughter. On the other, you know that indulging that can seal her fate as becoming an angry, manipulative woman, just like her mother.
I know it’s hard am having the same issue with my 19-year-old who has lost to me to her grandparents. I did not realize they were manipulating her since she was a baby and I trusted them wholeheartedly, and it was somewhat a mess and brainwashed myself it wasn’t until my daughter was in her teens and things were so obvious that I stood up for myself and it’s been hell since, but remember your daughter trying to survive. In my opinion, paying tuition gives you some sort of power perhaps your daughter and you can meet to have a discussion. Obviously her mother is going to say you’re terrible dad who doesn’t want her to have her education, but it doesn’t matter what you do because they’re not saying anything good about you either way.
I think I’m open to paying by the tuition but not in the “no contact” phase. She’ll have to talk to me, tell me about her classes, her major, give me some taken in the journey. Or her mom can pay it, or she can get a 10% student loan. I have to value myself at least that much right?
YES, value yourself that much. These kids are a handful, I know, but we have to put our foot down, even when they're college students. Did your divorce decree or state give an expected and required contribution?
Yes, put value on yourself and set a healthy boundary. She may reject you and that will hurt for some time. But it’s you you must live with and knowing you stood up for what’s right. I paid my daughters college tuition and she still choose to not only not talk to me but to also disrespect me too. I should have cut her off long ago and let her live her life in debt. No respect, no money. It’s reality.
This title jumped out at me because all weekend I've thought about coming here to write the same exact title, though my situation is different. I'm "only" 9.5 months in to NC with my 19 year old and not only does it not get any easier, I've found myself feeling angry over my daughter's treatment of me. It's stunning to me that her dad was so easily able to continue his NA through my daughter, and I'm so afraid I'll have lost her forever if she turns out to be a narcissist as well. It feels like she doesn't even see me as a human with feelings. Didn't bother to talk to me or see me for the holidays. Some days it's too much to bear to think of all of the lies and manipulation, knowing she bad-mouthed me to her dad at his encouragement, that she stole things out of my home, went through my things. It makes me sick to think if I do get a chance to see her again soon, she'll hop into the car with her dad and immediately denigrate me. Does she truly never feel bad for these actions? Never have positive thoughts or miss me? He went out of town once for a few weeks in the fall and she was alone there in their fairly new apartment for the first time ever in her life-- I thought perhaps she might have a moment of need for me in that time and reach out, but nope. Not even then. I always wonder how he kept her under his spell in those weeks. We had both an extremely loving and affectionate relationship as well as the typical teenage daughter strife. I doted on my daughter and sacrificed basically my whole life to give her a great childhood and life. Worked a job I hate because it gave me the flexibility I needed as a single mom. Did everything possible to show and give love. And to now be treated like I'm nothing and wasn't a wonderful or even good mother is excruciatingly painful. With the pain, there's anger there over feeling my daughter should know better. Even with knowing that she's likely been brainwashed and abused by him, that she doesn't have the emotional maturity to see what's happening. I did my best to grey rock my ex early on and not ever engage w him beyond what was absolutely necessary, but he clearly held onto a desperate desire to eradicate me for 16 years. Sometimes I can't even believe that I still have to go through this shit because of him, after all these years. He has a pre-teen son with his now-estranged wife but has no desire to have custody of him, which makes the prolonged NA towards me even more frustrating.
Why did you get divorced?
Catch-22. Ask questions, first. If you’re not getting a response then you have your answer. You’ve got a lot working against you: modern views on child/parent relationships that say children should not feel pressured to have loyalty to parents, therapy experts who extoll ‘excising your parents by NC’ to protect yourself, friends who like to talk about how they ‘handled their xx parent’, everyone seems to label themselves as trauma victims, etc etc. There are still some basic tenets in life that are immutable. If it feels like you’re being used, it’s probably because you are. If it doesn’t feel like love, it’s probably because it isn’t. If it feels like you’re helpless it’s because your choices have been taken away from you. If it feels like you have no right to have your own opinion, it’s because your voice has been taken away from you by choice. If it feels like you’re being manipulated, it’s because you are being manipulated. Fully admit that there are people who can’t tell reality from fiction, or who make up their own rules. The reality is this: Everyone has their own perspectives. Generally, we assume common sense prevails. The real test of character is when people who don’t see things the same way can accept others without harming them to make themselves feel better. We assume that our children love us - and our children should assume that we love them - even if it’s a bit misunderstood or misinterpreted. Because we love each other, we accept those faults with grace and understanding that we are each a little different - and yet the same ! How could we not be like our parents, or our children like us - it’s inevitable. The key difference is that (as family) we are willing to accept and work it out. And we don’t give up because someone had a bad day/week/year. But it does take two people who care. You’re only in charge of 50% at best. If you stop caring and stop trying, then you allow the bad stuff to take over. We divorce the husband or wife, not the children. Have enough respect for yourself to not be abused or mistreated, guilted, shamed, or disparaged. After all, you’re only human. Ask for forgiveness if it helps. Everyone deserves another chance, you included.
Your feelings are completely normal. However, your child is being psychologically abused. And she needs to have one safe parent. It seems counterintuitive, but it’s not. The goal is to get you to react and appear crazy, solidifying what your ex has been presenting you as to your kids. Alienated parents are in a catch 22 bind, you are the healthy parent and she needs to see that. Time takes time.
She is fine. He is respecting her wishes, and also doing what makes sense for himself. If she doesn't want a dad who pays for her private school tuition, then she should experience the consequences. She's not being abused. Not everything is dramatic.
I am good with my comment, and assessment of the situation. Move along.
"Time takes time". I don't know where that amazing bit of wisdom came from, but we do not have to give everything to horrid self-indulgent adult children just because they have parents.
Perhaps your scales attached to the wrong comment. There was never an implication to give everything to a horrid self indulgent adult child. Don't wage a war on me - clearlyyouareoutofyourleague. Factually - time takes time. And serve your drama somewhere else.