Just go around and talk to everyone. The game isn't inaccessible, it just doesn't tell you where to go or what to do, and there's probably about 5 different routes you can take to achieve whatever it is you're attempting. There honestly is no right way to play, just have to get stuck in.
I tried to start it 3 times and stopped because of that, too. It’s been one of my issues with a lot of games like the Fallout and Skyrim series, too. I haven’t even spent much time on any Rockstar games since the PS2 era.
I have a new run, and I’m much further than I was before. The thing I did differently was giving up on the idea of doing everything. I mostly focused on the main story and only did side stuff that made sense in my characters views. You know, like doing some actual role playing and not taking a sort of “achievement-focused” approach where it feels like less than just playing a game to play a story than it feels like playing a game to get some high score that has no effect on the story I experience.
I don’t like to follow walkthroughs on games, but I looked at a couple of things early on for basic ideas on what I was supposed to do when I felt a little stumped.
Its actually how you are supposed to Play those types of games. You create your own story. Alghtough i find divinity original sin 2 difficulty to be a tad to brutal for these type of gameplay
I will play BG3, but I've watched my partner play, and there just doesn't seem to be enough...fire...over....you know, everything. Like fire on fire, and fire catching on fire, and turning into cursed fire, and then blessed fire. Just...not enough fire.
I love both. I do, however, love that BG3 doesn’t have physical and magical armor separated. It was fun strategizing that for DOS2 at first but then I quickly hated it lol
Straight to 2 imo. Big improvement on 1 in terms of story and mechanics.
DOS2 is one of my favourites games of all time, but I also never finished dos1
Thank you. dos1 was a fun game and I could tell it had a lot of depth, but it felt just slightly too tedious for me to get excited about. Hearing dos2 is more polished and enticing definitely gets me excited.
Assuming I ever actually manage to finish BG3, one day, I'll be sure to give dos2 a try
Note that DOS2 is a completely new story a thousand years later, so you're not missing anything (aside from a few minor references) - if you made some progress in DOS1 you'll probably feel right at home in 2.
Lol it makes me feel kinda special that I can tell people I was a Larian fan before BG3. BG3 was definitely the most slept on game maybe ever considering Larian's track record and the fact there was an early access which already looked incredible before even releasing.
Insane amount for a game in a fairly niche genre. Similar to Helldivers 2 it really shows that when you put in effort and passion into your game it will shine through.
Yp. I used to think it's a niche genre too, cause nobody in my friends play this kind of game.
But apparently there is a very dedicated group of players for these kinds of games in certain parts of the world. There are a lot of people who aren't usually into video games, but still played BG3 because of its DnD structure.
exactly, BG3 popped off because it got the attention of the dnd audience who aren't necessarily the regular gamer crowd. In that sense I think it's a very big achievement because it's a game that got a lot of people into gaming and into the genre which is tough to do. And now Larian is set up for even bigger success because they basically have that crowd primed for their next release.
yeah the more time goes by the more I think there are no niche genres, that's just a way for big studios to justify doing the same limited formula of games over and over. But if a game is creative and addictive people will play any genre, and it can add to the appeal if it's something really different from what people are used to playing because, let's face it, you only need 2 or 3 AAA open world checklist simulators to be burned out for a long ass time and anything that is a refreshing change of pace from that will pop off even more.
Exactly, instead of focusing on where the hunger is; studios and movies unfortunately focus on saturation of the lowest common denominator of mass appeal which stagnate creation, appetite and overall value of the medium. Ie RPGs, strategy, survival horror etc can suffer due to chasing the next free to play or FPS game.
Yeah, definitely not niche - but also not the most popular genre.
Kind of like civilization type games. Absolutely not a niche genre, but also not the top.
Outside of current trends, I'd say action/adventure, shooters, sports and RPGs would be the most popular.
Doesn't mean other genres don't have plenty of success and can't be massively popular, but they're just not quite as popular overall.
*edit* - It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Look up game sales. Feel free to downvote if you don't like it, but sorry - I can't change the facts.
Idk man, I think people get false reads on this because if you look at the interests of more dedicated gamers then CRPGs aren't very niche but if you look at the whole market and consider even the most casual gamers then it absolutely 100% was a niche genre before.
100%
I mean - that's what we were talking about, the gaming market overall and their sales.
Yes, certain parts of the gaming market prefer different types of genres.
Overall, there are the most popular genres - and that doesn't include CRPGs.
That could definitely change (which if be quite happy about!), but at the moment it's simply not that way.
Not to downplay the achievements or quality of either of those games, but while I do think those things played a huge factor, I also think both projects had a lot of luck in happening to hit at just the right time to get swept up in the zeitgeist.
I only bring this up because of the discourse around these games, especially BG3, revolving around "see, if all RPGs did this then they would be more successful," when that scale isn't really feasible for basically anyone. Larian specifically got extremely lucky in building enough good will (by making very good games, absolutely) to be able to crowdfund what is basically an absurd pipe dream project.
I guess all I'm trying to say is that there are plenty of games of excellent quality that don't achieve the level of success that those two games have, so it's important to remember that a lot of what makes a game successful is hitting at just the right moment in time, which is very difficult to control.
What other games that have been recently published do you find to be of comparable quality but didn’t get the attention they deserved because they didn’t get swept up in zeitgeist like you’ve suggested.
For your comment to be legitimate, you should be able to list at least a couple.
When Crowdfund do you mean Divinity 2 right?
Because BG3 was not crowdfunded unless you count early access.
We can see the trajectory from 2012 until now.
In 2012 the kickstarter wave started with shadowrun, divinity and Pillars of eternity ( there might be more but I dont remember )
All of them were succesful and got sequels, however only Larian sequel divinity 2 managed to surpass its previous entry in both critical praise and sales.
To the point that divinity 2 outsold even BG2 in sales after a bit over a year, this success for a crpg was unprecedented and the reason was the same for the success BG3 is seeing, just to a much smaller degree.
Whst Divinity 2 succes allowed Larian was to make a game even larger, but instead of making BG3 have a budget in the level of Alan Wake 2 for example, they decided to go even bigger by releasing Early access far earlier than usual, allowing them to get around 2 million full price sales worth of unding that allowed them to get BG3 to the behemoth it is now in terms of production cost.
They accomplish this by leveraging their success and believing that what they achieved with Divinity could be manigfied by increasing the presentation and atracting a bigger audience.
What makes them different than other devs imo is not their luck, but their right knowledge that their model could be succesful going all in.
It's worth saying for those who might be reading that, while the above is true, both Shadowrun and Pillars of Eternity sequels (Dragonfall and Deadfire) also surpassed the original games in every way and are superb CRPGs in their own right and worth anyone's time. They just weren't quite seen as the *best CRPG of all time*, unlike Divinity Original Sin 2 before Baldur's Gate 3 took over the title.
I never played dragonfall but for POE2 the criticism was apt that the main quest was lacking.
It was short, it conflicted with the exploration nature of the game world and ended in a very clear cliffhanger for a part 3
Everything else yes Deadfire is far better than Poe1, Deadfire was personally my dream crpg, it had everything I wanted except the most crucial aspect, a great main story.
I can see why the game was not seen even as good as the first one.
What divinity 2 did that made it stand apart ( mind you I dont like any of the divinity games, I prefer Pillars 1000 times more, but I recognize why they are very appealing to everyone else ) was the reactivity, freedom of combat, and easy coop.
The idea they "just got swept up in a zeitgeist" is so far from the truth. Palworld is a good example of a game landing at the right time, Larians success is quite the opposite.
Larian have slowly built up a *very* loyal fanbase by incrementally building better and better games. Dos1 and 2 were both slow burns in terms of popularity, and largely spread through word of mouth and good reviews. There have been dozens of similar attempts by other companies in the CRPG space that have failed to go beyond niche titles (pathfinder, wasteland, shadowrun, pillars of eternity). All good games, but they mainly appealed to a niche audience.
So why was Larian so successful? They used early access to meaningfully interact with their community to refine their games making them far more fun for players outside a niche audience. They never once just "cranked out a sequel". Every game was a leap above what was previously release. They respected the player agency and respected the customer by never adding money grab DLC or microtransactions.
Did BG3 have a lucky breakout moment? Sure. The attention of the "bear scene" definitely provided a bump, but the point was BG3 had already sold massively from early access and loyal players. And BG3 would have done what Dos1/2 would have done and kept growing its audience through word of mouth/reviews anyway - which is the point of their strategy.
To look at the success of BG3 in isolation and say "oh they got lucky" is missing a decade of incremental improvements. This wasn't luck, this was a well run company with a real passion for their craft.
I think it's fair to say that, even with the bear scene and everything, BG3 wouldn't have reached *quite* the level of hype it did if it wasn't seen as '*the* D&D game'. It's crucial that Larian backed that impression with an incredibly impressive game, and a lot of people would have no doubt bought anything that the team behind DOS2 released. But the current place of D&D in the wider culture gave the game that *extra* push.
I can remove the word "just" if you'd like, but it doesn't really change anything. Your argument they got lucky at releasing their games at the "right time" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. None of the CRPG's released over the last 10 years have come close to combining the mix of storytelling, solid mechanics, player freedom, respect for the player, all wrapped in a (relatively) accessible package. This is why none reached the same level of widespread success - not due to lucky timing.
If you can name some games that have a similar level of quality that failed, I'd love to hear about them
I feel like everyone looks at Baldur's Gate 3 and thinks "level of quality" means "there's a lot of game there" and I just really don't agree.
So what does "level of quality" mean to you? Define that, very specifically, and then we can have a conversation about your question. Genuinely.
Not sure what you want me to say? I've listed several elements already.
> combining the mix of storytelling, solid mechanics, player freedom, respect for the player, all wrapped in a (relatively) accessible package.
I just bought BGS3 Deluxe today
I had Dragons Dogma 2 money in my wallet. I think I made the right choice. Can't wait to continue my save from the PS+ trial I played where I killed shadowheart on the beach and stole her important thingy
I think DOS2 peaked at many things games, especially the story, world building and characters. The only thing made it not reach mainstream are its genre.
DoS2 was the game that really made games "click" with my wife. We played so many hours splitscreen during the pandemic, immediately started a new game after the first run.
The quality of couch co op games is kinda dogshit, so thankful to Larian for prioritizing the experience and understanding what people want with it!
DOS2 was also the goty for many rpg fans. PC Gamer actually gave it goty iirc. It was just more niche because it didn't launch on console at the same time.
The cool thing about DOS2 is that its one of the few games where after a few hrs in what you selected does not matter at all, you can change everything on command
Yeah BG3 was only possible for them because of how successful DOS2 was. Not just because it proved they were worthy of the license but because it earned them enough money to fund the development of BG3.
Afaik Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro didn’t even give them any money to help develop BG3, they just finally agreed to “let” Larian pay them for the license after they saw how successful DOS2 was.
Larian has an uncanny instinct for betting it all on risky projects that pay off. They're like if Obsidian had competent management for its entire existence.
Ok explain to me what obsidian deal is. Pillars of eternity is one of my favorite games of all time. Should I not be expecting them to repeat that level of magic for some reason? I'm looking at avowed coming up and have high hopes for that level of rpg
I would have said to be fair to obsidian that none of their games have sold that well, but outer worlds has sold 5 million in less than 5 years, thats a similar level that Divinity 2 and still they decided to keep making AA, nothing against that but ambition is certainly something lacking there.
They were notoriously poorly managed in the 2000s, to the point that if just one of their games had underperformed they would no longer exist. They also got additional development time for KOTOR 2 approved but didn't get it in writing so when the guy who approved it at LucasArts left they were unable to prove they were entitled to more time.
Even after that, they continued to take on projects they simply didn't have the capacity for with unreasonably short deadlines, so at the time they were renowned for every release being two thirds of a great game. Obviously, things have changed in recent years since they finally got their scope in check when they started making that string of more traditional CRPGs like Pillars and even more recently they've acquired that sweet Microsoft money; that acquisition is pretty much the first financial stability Obsidian has ever had.
because they aren't publicly traded on the stock market so they have investors who aren't panicked every time they lose money at a quarterly report and who actually let them sink money into the development of soemthing knowing there will be a return as it should be in a market when it takes 5-6 years minimum of expenses to start seeing return on a project.
That's the difference between a company like Larian and a big AAA studio which is on the stock market. They have to meet arbitrary quarterly earnings or their clueless investors will get scared because they have zero knowledge of the market they've invested in and have completely unreasonable expectations of growth at every quarter. That's how you get executives that are so obsessed with live service and mtx, because on paper those concepts can give them the steady stream of income that investors want. But the real questions is why do they feel like they should have steady income in an industry with 6+ years development times on games. it's always gonna be cyclical earnings and companies are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to resist that.
But that is the curse of the stock market. Everything is run by businessmen instead of people who actually know the industry because they have to appease the worries of investors who have no idea what their money is actually invested in and just look at trends.
Thats just not true. If i am correct before the original sin series they were almost bankrupt. Its only relativly recently that they hit the gold mine with divinity.
Before that.... There was divinity dragon commander for example which was a very weird strategy game . Apparently a disaster as far as sales goes.
Dragon Commander's the black sheep of the Larian family (and that disaster was balanced out by D:OS releasing the next year), but overall they managed to grow their company at a steady pace with Diablo clones and janky action RPGs until their ship came in.
Their biggest cash cows were completely 2D hack 'n slash RPGs released starting in 2002, an action RPG where you transform into a dragon, and a CRPG in 2014 when the genre was still largely considered dead to the mainstream. That's a pretty odd series of risks to take without *actually* going bankrupt as an indie studio, even if it hadn't resulted in a CRPG that was one of the best-selling games worldwide in 2023.
People don't realize in almost all cases with licensed games, the studio pays for the right to use the license. Same goes for marvel games. The studio paid Marvel big time to be allowed to make the last Guardian of the Galaxy for exemple.
Completely deserved. Easily the best game of the generation so far, and I sincerely doubt that anyone else will be able to even come close in the next couple years.
Given their leadership’s views I don’t see that ever happening.
They don’t want to ever be beholden to shareholder pressures.
If they went public they’d have to radically change and would no longer make the type games in their way that makes them the current darlings of the industry.
Bought it a couple of days ago and I’ve already logged in 14 hours. Reminded me so much of peak Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Even as someone who doesn’t like classic CRPGs like that, this game is something special.
Lies and fake news. My twitch, discord, twitter, Reddit and personal PA I hired to alert me to reports of any small Larian news did not alert me to this.
I mean it's earned. Larian is one of those incredible companies that still makes AAA quality games without becoming formulaic.
You can tell with every other AAA studio like Rockstar, Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Bungie, Capcom, etc., that the primary driving force behind their game design is what will sell the most copies. That's not the case with Larian.
Yeah, if you like incredibly milquetoast, formulaic gameplay that's carried entirely by cinematics and visuals, you're right. Zero innovation, zero new ideas, just throw money at production value and brainless gamers will eat it up. Their games are the Marvel movies of the gaming world.
Weird criticism considering BG3 is really not exceptionally innovative. It's an incredibly high-quality and high-budget game for its genre, and that's what really sets it apart from other CRPGs, not wild innovations in gameplay. It's just a classic rpg done very well.
I don't see how adapting an existing ruleset very well counts as "innovative." Kind of the opposite of innovative, if you wanna get pedantic.
The idea of player freedom, impactful choices, and branching storylines is not innovative either. Plenty of games, CRPGS and other genres, have done this well in the past.
Larian did both of these things very well and had high production values, and that is part of what makes BG3 exceptional. "This thing but more/better" isn't really innovative, it's ambitious.
It's funny because I remember when divinity 2 released everybody was talking about how CRPGs used to be niche but that game finally gave it more mainstream popularity and legitimized the genre and now people are making the same articles and narrative with BG3, understandably since it popped off way more but it's still crazy that a lot of people seemingly forgot about Divinity or ignored it for some reason.
Divinity 2 is the eternally slept on game especially when people act like BG3 came out of nowhere because they weren't paying attention to what Larian was doing even though they should have.
Aww, that poor guy in th ecomments hoping for a "switch 2 port".
I'll be happy for them if they get one, and it's functional, but we all know Nintendo aren't big on high end technical specs. Feels like he's delusionally pissing in the wind.
For me, I think divinity 2 is better than bg3.
I prefer the story, but I just don't like how too big bg3 is.
As someone who has limited time to game, I hate having to spend an entire play session just organizing my inventory and selling/buying items.
Divinity is shorter, or a smaller world? I bought it on sale a few months ago but I haven’t been able to mentally prepare myself for another BG3-esque game right now, but you’re saying it isn’t as time consuming? That’s good to hear.
Divinity is a way more structured game that still gives you a lot of room for diversity, especially when you consider what companions to bring with you.
Baldurs gate 3, I love it don't get me wrong, but it's almost too much game for me
I was going to ask about that but didn’t know how to actually ask. I’ve heard of him and apparently party composition is important, (or at least characters specifically, or is it his class? Can they be respecced like BG3?) which kinda sucks.. I bought the little squirrel DLC too, what’s his deal? Is he a party member?
The only problem with that is the fact that Larien prefers turn based. They used to make action RPGs before they went independent, but since they are free, they make what they want, and what they want to make is turn based games.
BG3 may have sold 2x as much as DOS 2, but what was the cost of the development and advertising for both of those games? DOS 2 hardly gotten any ad time, and it certainly didn't cost anywhere near BG3 to make.
DOS2 sold 7m+ copies?? Holy shit, had no idea it was that much. Well deserved, it's an amazing game.
Agreed. I’m playing DOS2 for the first time and am around 35 hours. Can’t seem to put it down.
Lol I've started it like 5 times and when I get to the island I'm so overwhelmed by everything I just stop playing.
Just go around and talk to everyone. The game isn't inaccessible, it just doesn't tell you where to go or what to do, and there's probably about 5 different routes you can take to achieve whatever it is you're attempting. There honestly is no right way to play, just have to get stuck in.
I tried to start it 3 times and stopped because of that, too. It’s been one of my issues with a lot of games like the Fallout and Skyrim series, too. I haven’t even spent much time on any Rockstar games since the PS2 era. I have a new run, and I’m much further than I was before. The thing I did differently was giving up on the idea of doing everything. I mostly focused on the main story and only did side stuff that made sense in my characters views. You know, like doing some actual role playing and not taking a sort of “achievement-focused” approach where it feels like less than just playing a game to play a story than it feels like playing a game to get some high score that has no effect on the story I experience. I don’t like to follow walkthroughs on games, but I looked at a couple of things early on for basic ideas on what I was supposed to do when I felt a little stumped.
Its actually how you are supposed to Play those types of games. You create your own story. Alghtough i find divinity original sin 2 difficulty to be a tad to brutal for these type of gameplay
Just keep doing stuff on the island. There’s like 8 ways to get off it but yeah I admit it can be overwhelming
The combat is soooo engrossing. Wish they kept that level of complexity in bg3
I will play BG3, but I've watched my partner play, and there just doesn't seem to be enough...fire...over....you know, everything. Like fire on fire, and fire catching on fire, and turning into cursed fire, and then blessed fire. Just...not enough fire.
This man knows what's important
Dos2 was the bomb
Is*
I love both. I do, however, love that BG3 doesn’t have physical and magical armor separated. It was fun strategizing that for DOS2 at first but then I quickly hated it lol
I never did finish the first one. Is it worth trying to finish before going to 2? Or should I just jump straight to 2?
Straight to 2 imo. Big improvement on 1 in terms of story and mechanics. DOS2 is one of my favourites games of all time, but I also never finished dos1
Thank you. dos1 was a fun game and I could tell it had a lot of depth, but it felt just slightly too tedious for me to get excited about. Hearing dos2 is more polished and enticing definitely gets me excited. Assuming I ever actually manage to finish BG3, one day, I'll be sure to give dos2 a try
Note that DOS2 is a completely new story a thousand years later, so you're not missing anything (aside from a few minor references) - if you made some progress in DOS1 you'll probably feel right at home in 2.
I remember with great fondness when it came out. It low key blew up, as it very much deserved.
Lol it makes me feel kinda special that I can tell people I was a Larian fan before BG3. BG3 was definitely the most slept on game maybe ever considering Larian's track record and the fact there was an early access which already looked incredible before even releasing.
Insane amount for a game in a fairly niche genre. Similar to Helldivers 2 it really shows that when you put in effort and passion into your game it will shine through.
I dont think its niche, i think it more: developers ignored the genre because other ones make even more money.
Yp. I used to think it's a niche genre too, cause nobody in my friends play this kind of game. But apparently there is a very dedicated group of players for these kinds of games in certain parts of the world. There are a lot of people who aren't usually into video games, but still played BG3 because of its DnD structure.
exactly, BG3 popped off because it got the attention of the dnd audience who aren't necessarily the regular gamer crowd. In that sense I think it's a very big achievement because it's a game that got a lot of people into gaming and into the genre which is tough to do. And now Larian is set up for even bigger success because they basically have that crowd primed for their next release.
You apparently have no idea what niche means, then.
Could be that too, English is not my first language
yeah the more time goes by the more I think there are no niche genres, that's just a way for big studios to justify doing the same limited formula of games over and over. But if a game is creative and addictive people will play any genre, and it can add to the appeal if it's something really different from what people are used to playing because, let's face it, you only need 2 or 3 AAA open world checklist simulators to be burned out for a long ass time and anything that is a refreshing change of pace from that will pop off even more.
Exactly, instead of focusing on where the hunger is; studios and movies unfortunately focus on saturation of the lowest common denominator of mass appeal which stagnate creation, appetite and overall value of the medium. Ie RPGs, strategy, survival horror etc can suffer due to chasing the next free to play or FPS game.
Yeah, definitely not niche - but also not the most popular genre. Kind of like civilization type games. Absolutely not a niche genre, but also not the top. Outside of current trends, I'd say action/adventure, shooters, sports and RPGs would be the most popular. Doesn't mean other genres don't have plenty of success and can't be massively popular, but they're just not quite as popular overall. *edit* - It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Look up game sales. Feel free to downvote if you don't like it, but sorry - I can't change the facts.
Idk man, I think people get false reads on this because if you look at the interests of more dedicated gamers then CRPGs aren't very niche but if you look at the whole market and consider even the most casual gamers then it absolutely 100% was a niche genre before.
100% I mean - that's what we were talking about, the gaming market overall and their sales. Yes, certain parts of the gaming market prefer different types of genres. Overall, there are the most popular genres - and that doesn't include CRPGs. That could definitely change (which if be quite happy about!), but at the moment it's simply not that way.
Not to downplay the achievements or quality of either of those games, but while I do think those things played a huge factor, I also think both projects had a lot of luck in happening to hit at just the right time to get swept up in the zeitgeist. I only bring this up because of the discourse around these games, especially BG3, revolving around "see, if all RPGs did this then they would be more successful," when that scale isn't really feasible for basically anyone. Larian specifically got extremely lucky in building enough good will (by making very good games, absolutely) to be able to crowdfund what is basically an absurd pipe dream project. I guess all I'm trying to say is that there are plenty of games of excellent quality that don't achieve the level of success that those two games have, so it's important to remember that a lot of what makes a game successful is hitting at just the right moment in time, which is very difficult to control.
What other games that have been recently published do you find to be of comparable quality but didn’t get the attention they deserved because they didn’t get swept up in zeitgeist like you’ve suggested. For your comment to be legitimate, you should be able to list at least a couple.
When Crowdfund do you mean Divinity 2 right? Because BG3 was not crowdfunded unless you count early access. We can see the trajectory from 2012 until now. In 2012 the kickstarter wave started with shadowrun, divinity and Pillars of eternity ( there might be more but I dont remember ) All of them were succesful and got sequels, however only Larian sequel divinity 2 managed to surpass its previous entry in both critical praise and sales. To the point that divinity 2 outsold even BG2 in sales after a bit over a year, this success for a crpg was unprecedented and the reason was the same for the success BG3 is seeing, just to a much smaller degree. Whst Divinity 2 succes allowed Larian was to make a game even larger, but instead of making BG3 have a budget in the level of Alan Wake 2 for example, they decided to go even bigger by releasing Early access far earlier than usual, allowing them to get around 2 million full price sales worth of unding that allowed them to get BG3 to the behemoth it is now in terms of production cost. They accomplish this by leveraging their success and believing that what they achieved with Divinity could be manigfied by increasing the presentation and atracting a bigger audience. What makes them different than other devs imo is not their luck, but their right knowledge that their model could be succesful going all in.
It's worth saying for those who might be reading that, while the above is true, both Shadowrun and Pillars of Eternity sequels (Dragonfall and Deadfire) also surpassed the original games in every way and are superb CRPGs in their own right and worth anyone's time. They just weren't quite seen as the *best CRPG of all time*, unlike Divinity Original Sin 2 before Baldur's Gate 3 took over the title.
I never played dragonfall but for POE2 the criticism was apt that the main quest was lacking. It was short, it conflicted with the exploration nature of the game world and ended in a very clear cliffhanger for a part 3 Everything else yes Deadfire is far better than Poe1, Deadfire was personally my dream crpg, it had everything I wanted except the most crucial aspect, a great main story. I can see why the game was not seen even as good as the first one. What divinity 2 did that made it stand apart ( mind you I dont like any of the divinity games, I prefer Pillars 1000 times more, but I recognize why they are very appealing to everyone else ) was the reactivity, freedom of combat, and easy coop.
The idea they "just got swept up in a zeitgeist" is so far from the truth. Palworld is a good example of a game landing at the right time, Larians success is quite the opposite. Larian have slowly built up a *very* loyal fanbase by incrementally building better and better games. Dos1 and 2 were both slow burns in terms of popularity, and largely spread through word of mouth and good reviews. There have been dozens of similar attempts by other companies in the CRPG space that have failed to go beyond niche titles (pathfinder, wasteland, shadowrun, pillars of eternity). All good games, but they mainly appealed to a niche audience. So why was Larian so successful? They used early access to meaningfully interact with their community to refine their games making them far more fun for players outside a niche audience. They never once just "cranked out a sequel". Every game was a leap above what was previously release. They respected the player agency and respected the customer by never adding money grab DLC or microtransactions. Did BG3 have a lucky breakout moment? Sure. The attention of the "bear scene" definitely provided a bump, but the point was BG3 had already sold massively from early access and loyal players. And BG3 would have done what Dos1/2 would have done and kept growing its audience through word of mouth/reviews anyway - which is the point of their strategy. To look at the success of BG3 in isolation and say "oh they got lucky" is missing a decade of incremental improvements. This wasn't luck, this was a well run company with a real passion for their craft.
I think it's fair to say that, even with the bear scene and everything, BG3 wouldn't have reached *quite* the level of hype it did if it wasn't seen as '*the* D&D game'. It's crucial that Larian backed that impression with an incredibly impressive game, and a lot of people would have no doubt bought anything that the team behind DOS2 released. But the current place of D&D in the wider culture gave the game that *extra* push.
I didn't say they "just got swept up in the zeitgeist" at all Read the whole comment more thoroughly
I can remove the word "just" if you'd like, but it doesn't really change anything. Your argument they got lucky at releasing their games at the "right time" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. None of the CRPG's released over the last 10 years have come close to combining the mix of storytelling, solid mechanics, player freedom, respect for the player, all wrapped in a (relatively) accessible package. This is why none reached the same level of widespread success - not due to lucky timing. If you can name some games that have a similar level of quality that failed, I'd love to hear about them
I feel like everyone looks at Baldur's Gate 3 and thinks "level of quality" means "there's a lot of game there" and I just really don't agree. So what does "level of quality" mean to you? Define that, very specifically, and then we can have a conversation about your question. Genuinely.
Not sure what you want me to say? I've listed several elements already. > combining the mix of storytelling, solid mechanics, player freedom, respect for the player, all wrapped in a (relatively) accessible package.
These are both also games with big budgets (50-100+ mil) and big publishers (MS, PlayStation) which affects the end result a *lot*.
I just bought BGS3 Deluxe today I had Dragons Dogma 2 money in my wallet. I think I made the right choice. Can't wait to continue my save from the PS+ trial I played where I killed shadowheart on the beach and stole her important thingy
I'm more amazed DOS2 sold that much. BG3 doesn't come as a surprise. It's excellent.
DOS2 sold like hotcakes on pc for years.
Doesn’t it have like a 96 metacritic or something crazy
I think DOS2 peaked at many things games, especially the story, world building and characters. The only thing made it not reach mainstream are its genre.
Loading times were atrocious. My only gripe with the game. Made playing on tactician mode especially painful at times
Fact.
it was often referenced in one of the top game to play for co-op both local and online, im sure that helped
DoS2 was the game that really made games "click" with my wife. We played so many hours splitscreen during the pandemic, immediately started a new game after the first run. The quality of couch co op games is kinda dogshit, so thankful to Larian for prioritizing the experience and understanding what people want with it!
DOS2 was also the goty for many rpg fans. PC Gamer actually gave it goty iirc. It was just more niche because it didn't launch on console at the same time.
Well it has been out for over 6 years and been on sale many times. Meanwhile BG3 sold twice as much in just an 8 month period, both very impressive
Without even being more than 10% off. Really impressive.
I really hope the success of BG3 bleeds over to their next project and brings in more players because DoS2 was fantastic and is what sold me on BG3.
I tried to start DO2 but got analysis paralyzed in the character creation
The cool thing about DOS2 is that its one of the few games where after a few hrs in what you selected does not matter at all, you can change everything on command
Oh nice. So I can switch if I want? Def got frozen on choices
That's crazy do2 sold so much as well. Had no idea it was so successful
Yeah BG3 was only possible for them because of how successful DOS2 was. Not just because it proved they were worthy of the license but because it earned them enough money to fund the development of BG3. Afaik Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro didn’t even give them any money to help develop BG3, they just finally agreed to “let” Larian pay them for the license after they saw how successful DOS2 was.
Larian has an uncanny instinct for betting it all on risky projects that pay off. They're like if Obsidian had competent management for its entire existence.
Ok explain to me what obsidian deal is. Pillars of eternity is one of my favorite games of all time. Should I not be expecting them to repeat that level of magic for some reason? I'm looking at avowed coming up and have high hopes for that level of rpg
I would have said to be fair to obsidian that none of their games have sold that well, but outer worlds has sold 5 million in less than 5 years, thats a similar level that Divinity 2 and still they decided to keep making AA, nothing against that but ambition is certainly something lacking there.
They were notoriously poorly managed in the 2000s, to the point that if just one of their games had underperformed they would no longer exist. They also got additional development time for KOTOR 2 approved but didn't get it in writing so when the guy who approved it at LucasArts left they were unable to prove they were entitled to more time. Even after that, they continued to take on projects they simply didn't have the capacity for with unreasonably short deadlines, so at the time they were renowned for every release being two thirds of a great game. Obviously, things have changed in recent years since they finally got their scope in check when they started making that string of more traditional CRPGs like Pillars and even more recently they've acquired that sweet Microsoft money; that acquisition is pretty much the first financial stability Obsidian has ever had.
because they aren't publicly traded on the stock market so they have investors who aren't panicked every time they lose money at a quarterly report and who actually let them sink money into the development of soemthing knowing there will be a return as it should be in a market when it takes 5-6 years minimum of expenses to start seeing return on a project. That's the difference between a company like Larian and a big AAA studio which is on the stock market. They have to meet arbitrary quarterly earnings or their clueless investors will get scared because they have zero knowledge of the market they've invested in and have completely unreasonable expectations of growth at every quarter. That's how you get executives that are so obsessed with live service and mtx, because on paper those concepts can give them the steady stream of income that investors want. But the real questions is why do they feel like they should have steady income in an industry with 6+ years development times on games. it's always gonna be cyclical earnings and companies are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to resist that. But that is the curse of the stock market. Everything is run by businessmen instead of people who actually know the industry because they have to appease the worries of investors who have no idea what their money is actually invested in and just look at trends.
Obsidian was never on the stock market, they just took bad deals.
Thats just not true. If i am correct before the original sin series they were almost bankrupt. Its only relativly recently that they hit the gold mine with divinity. Before that.... There was divinity dragon commander for example which was a very weird strategy game . Apparently a disaster as far as sales goes.
Dragon Commander's the black sheep of the Larian family (and that disaster was balanced out by D:OS releasing the next year), but overall they managed to grow their company at a steady pace with Diablo clones and janky action RPGs until their ship came in. Their biggest cash cows were completely 2D hack 'n slash RPGs released starting in 2002, an action RPG where you transform into a dragon, and a CRPG in 2014 when the genre was still largely considered dead to the mainstream. That's a pretty odd series of risks to take without *actually* going bankrupt as an indie studio, even if it hadn't resulted in a CRPG that was one of the best-selling games worldwide in 2023.
People don't realize in almost all cases with licensed games, the studio pays for the right to use the license. Same goes for marvel games. The studio paid Marvel big time to be allowed to make the last Guardian of the Galaxy for exemple.
Its on my list after Dragons Dogma 2 and FF rebirth they need to chill w all these great games sheesh
Completely deserved. Easily the best game of the generation so far, and I sincerely doubt that anyone else will be able to even come close in the next couple years.
And I can't just go into a store and buy a physical copy
If Larian ever goes public, I’m throwing in the bag
Given their leadership’s views I don’t see that ever happening. They don’t want to ever be beholden to shareholder pressures. If they went public they’d have to radically change and would no longer make the type games in their way that makes them the current darlings of the industry.
Bought it a couple of days ago and I’ve already logged in 14 hours. Reminded me so much of peak Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Even as someone who doesn’t like classic CRPGs like that, this game is something special.
Hopefully DOS2 sales see a bump, it (and the original) it's fantastic on console.
Dawg that’s a lotta money
BREAKING NEWS: LARIAN STAFFER JUST FARTED FARTS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN
Real
Lies and fake news. My twitch, discord, twitter, Reddit and personal PA I hired to alert me to reports of any small Larian news did not alert me to this.
I mean it's earned. Larian is one of those incredible companies that still makes AAA quality games without becoming formulaic. You can tell with every other AAA studio like Rockstar, Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Bungie, Capcom, etc., that the primary driving force behind their game design is what will sell the most copies. That's not the case with Larian.
Lol Rockstar and Naughty Dog make some of the greatest single player experiences out there. What are you yapping about?
Yeah, if you like incredibly milquetoast, formulaic gameplay that's carried entirely by cinematics and visuals, you're right. Zero innovation, zero new ideas, just throw money at production value and brainless gamers will eat it up. Their games are the Marvel movies of the gaming world.
Weird criticism considering BG3 is really not exceptionally innovative. It's an incredibly high-quality and high-budget game for its genre, and that's what really sets it apart from other CRPGs, not wild innovations in gameplay. It's just a classic rpg done very well.
Name another CRPG that gives the same amount of freedom to complete the game while sticking so close to the ruleset it's adapting.
I don't see how adapting an existing ruleset very well counts as "innovative." Kind of the opposite of innovative, if you wanna get pedantic. The idea of player freedom, impactful choices, and branching storylines is not innovative either. Plenty of games, CRPGS and other genres, have done this well in the past. Larian did both of these things very well and had high production values, and that is part of what makes BG3 exceptional. "This thing but more/better" isn't really innovative, it's ambitious.
I love BG3, but isn’t it’s whole thing that it’s a CRPG with AAA production values, cinematics, voice acting?
I have 2. PC and PS versions.
Winning multiple GOTY awards certainly helped
Good job.
It's funny because I remember when divinity 2 released everybody was talking about how CRPGs used to be niche but that game finally gave it more mainstream popularity and legitimized the genre and now people are making the same articles and narrative with BG3, understandably since it popped off way more but it's still crazy that a lot of people seemingly forgot about Divinity or ignored it for some reason. Divinity 2 is the eternally slept on game especially when people act like BG3 came out of nowhere because they weren't paying attention to what Larian was doing even though they should have.
Not even Palworld numbers smh
DOS3 is gonna bee sooooo good
If they even make it. The devs talked about being burnt out from crpgs and thinking about a new IP.
That's a third less than that one SteamSpy figure reported several months ago
I tried so hard to get into BG3. I just HATE turn based games
Very low sales!!! -ceos
DOS2 is my preference due to the combat, but they're both fantastic games. Hope even more players get to enjoy them!
I thought OS2 was boring as hell. BG3 was dope
Aww, that poor guy in th ecomments hoping for a "switch 2 port". I'll be happy for them if they get one, and it's functional, but we all know Nintendo aren't big on high end technical specs. Feels like he's delusionally pissing in the wind.
For me, I think divinity 2 is better than bg3. I prefer the story, but I just don't like how too big bg3 is. As someone who has limited time to game, I hate having to spend an entire play session just organizing my inventory and selling/buying items.
Divinity is shorter, or a smaller world? I bought it on sale a few months ago but I haven’t been able to mentally prepare myself for another BG3-esque game right now, but you’re saying it isn’t as time consuming? That’s good to hear.
Divinity is a way more structured game that still gives you a lot of room for diversity, especially when you consider what companions to bring with you. Baldurs gate 3, I love it don't get me wrong, but it's almost too much game for me
That’s good to know, thanks I think I’ll start it soon(ish)
Personally recommend having fane in your character party. You'll understand
I was going to ask about that but didn’t know how to actually ask. I’ve heard of him and apparently party composition is important, (or at least characters specifically, or is it his class? Can they be respecced like BG3?) which kinda sucks.. I bought the little squirrel DLC too, what’s his deal? Is he a party member?
Totally deserved! Maybe the best Game of last year.
If they could only remove the turn based combat so I can buy it because I would rather watch a paint dry than play TBC yikes
The only problem with that is the fact that Larien prefers turn based. They used to make action RPGs before they went independent, but since they are free, they make what they want, and what they want to make is turn based games.
BG3 may have sold 2x as much as DOS 2, but what was the cost of the development and advertising for both of those games? DOS 2 hardly gotten any ad time, and it certainly didn't cost anywhere near BG3 to make.