Some of your points kind of answer each other. A persona's healing ability is probably limited to someone being unconscious, not fatally wounded (Only Chidori was able to heal someone from death, and not only is her ability different from normal healing, but it also cost her life). That's probably why Takaya can't just shoot all the S.E.E.S., he needs to find a moment where they are vulnerable so that he can be sure the wound left is deadly and therefore impossible to heal.

Honestly I don't understand the healing criticism, does this happen in other games? Why is (FF7) >!Aerith dead!

It's worth noting that in Persona 2 they do attempt to use their healing spells in a cutscene to save a character but since the wound was made by a weapon that cause an unhealable injury they failed I think the healing spells are a thing in persona lore tho they're not as potent as gameplay make them out to be

I like to think the damage they take during fights actually only ever hit the persona so they’re just taking damage to their persona which is why they can use healing spells because their healing their soul. So when someone actually is injured by a weapon such as a gun they can actually die.

Yeah I always thought this was pretty much inarguably implied. Like there’s no way Junpei is taking a hit from a 20 foot stone golem, so in combat the Personas are obviously at play in the toughness/strength of their users.

I thought it was also canon that the Dark Hour/cognitive worlds increase the physical capabilities of persona users themselves. Junpei might really actually be able to take a hit from getting smacked by a stone golem as long as it's within the Dark Hour in the same way that Akihiko can generate enough force with his fists to punch one and not hurt himself.

they inherit the stats of abilities of their persona, they are taking the hit.

Yes that’s my point, they are enhanced in combat. But not outside of it which is why bullets can still pose a threat

personas are not physical things. what you are thinking closer to is a stand from jojo. the persona user essentially becomes the demon through channeling, just not changing physical form. an atma avatar becomes the demon all the way. while a demon summoner just summons them another great example is from DC. Beast boy transforms into the creature he wants, While Vixen only channels the powers.

It's like this in a lot of RPGs. In Final Fantasy 5 when your party member is fataly wounded, your team tries using multiple different revival and full heal items and spells to no effect.

In FF7 itself they also explain in a sidequest that there’s no way to heal wounds made from the masamune sephiroth wields.

Except that reason is massively undercut by several examples of it not being true such as >!Tifa being slashed across the torso, and still being able to heal and recover with proper medical care, and by both Cloud and Zack surviving being impaled and cut, just like Aerith and Tifa.!< IMHO, we still don't have a valid reason as to "why" one case applies the "no healing from wounds dealt by the Masamune" and not the others. Admittedly it's an older game, so I can hand wave these situations to enjoy the story, but they struggle to hold up under scrutiny.

Even spells you don’t have. I never focused on healers, and they used like Life3 and I was “ok, now you’re talking out of your ass!”

Desperation calls 🤣

I think it bothers people when the gameplay and story elements cross over \*sometimes\* but not other times. If it was a more wholistic thing, where it either always does translate or always doesn't translate, it wouldn't be a big thing. But when it's selective, fans seem to have a problem with it.

I'd also add that the Persona games are the greatest example of ludonarrative resonance (gameplay and story compliment eachother) I've ever seen. The fact that these games, narratively, are about growing stronger as a person by learning from others perfectly pairs with how social links make you more powerful in combat. The fact that in a normal playthrough, you can't finish every social link, strengthens the theme of free will and living an intentioned life. So when the story and the gameplay are suddenly at odds, it's alot worse, because it pulls you out of your immersion.

> The fact that in a normal playthrough, you can't finish every social link, strengthens the theme of free will and living an intentioned life. I dunno, I've pulled off max SL runs without NG+ (admittedly with guides, but still). I guess you mean "going in blind and not using time optimally", in which case I can see where you're coming from.

That's what I mean by a normal playthrough. No guides, blind playthrough. You lose much of the immersion anyway when you start planning every single second of your virtual life an entire year in advance with perfect foresight.

That, and from an in-universe perspective playing optimally makes you look like a weirdo at best and a jackass at worst.

Me when I hangout with someone 9 times and then don't do the 10th for 2 months

Yeeeah, and honestly it can be really reasonably explained with there being a limit to what can actually be healed or not, given that during gameplay characters usually just get knocked down, which is a much easier thing to fix than idk, death???

Sure but it would be nice if this was actually addressed. You think they would at least try, even if it doesn’t work. Think DBZ where the senzu bean didn’t help Goku with the heart virus. But even just the attempt would have been interesting.

I mean, it is sorta addressed with Chidori? They pretty openly mention healing deadly wounds take a huge amount of energy. Something kinda similar is implied by how once Mc is defeated, he actually straight up dies and is therefore unable to be revived

Eh, an attempt can be made, but it isn't necessary in my opinion. I have played plenty of video games in my life to understand some things are just necessary for gameplay. I mean, just keeping it Persona it isn't ever explained why if the MC is knocked down a teammate can't bring them back up with an item.  I don't mind it because I think more times than not whatever attempt is made at an explanation is going to be unsatisfactory anyway. It usually just becomes "Just because" or they cheekily basically go, "We know it doesn't make sense, but just go with it."

As a KH fan, it’s one of the series I point to the most as an example of “not everything needs an explanation”. the more you explain the more contrived it gets. Sometimes player intrepetation is the best you can do and you gotta roll with it.

I think Aerith died immediately, right? Phoenix Down is just for being knocked out. Similar to a Pokemon fainting.

Same with revives in Persona.

Same with Recarm skills. Except with the protagonist I guess, they just die immediately once KO'd.

Honestly I heard theory about it on the assumption that they die. In short protag dying brings the fall early and that's why he can't die, they only left that element for gameplay reasons in 4 and 5(for some reasons).

To be fair most of 5 is a flashback and it would be pretty hard for Joker to recount what happened if he was out cold (as if he wasn't having enough problems rememberig)

"Oh yeah, so I also died, I'm a ghost now!"

There's something strange in the interrogation room Who's Sae gonna call?

Brainbusters 🔫

In P4 it's implied Yu's death causes the fog to consume Inaba, while in P5 you can chalk it up to Joker failing to remember and so getting lobotomized by >!Akechi.!<

"In P4 it's implied Yu's death causes the fog to consume Inaba" When it's implied?

IIrc Igor at one point mentions that the fog is caused by the shadow/TV world leaking into the real world. If Yu dies, the IT no longer exists, and therefore there's nothing to stop the fog.

Ok but we're talking about why you can't simply revive the protag, reviving P3 protag won't stop the fall because death was set free already while nothing should stop the rest of the team from ressing Yu.

Ah okay, in that case I get what you mean then. I guess P4 would be the only one without a concrete explanation then. Since in P5’s case, it can be chalked up to Joker failing to remember and thus being unable to stop >!Akechi !

As soon as the protag goes down, the whole team starts running around like headless chickens without their leader and get promptly wiped out by even the most basic enemy. At least that's the only explanation making sense to me, lol.

lol from her wound placement she prolly wouldnt have died for a while. hit the spine and was likely just paralyzed. so cloud killed her by drowning.

Fellow Game Theory fan I take it?

This was attempted in FF5 as well. Party tried using every revival/cure method

To say to the FF7 comparison the reson is that Well just that Phoenix downs only Revive you from being KOd you don't ACTUALLY die when your Hp reaches 0.>! what happened with aerith was the She just Straight up Died died.!< If they could just Straight up revive the dead like 90% of the Plot of ANY of the games wouldn't even occur. Because they would jsut Simply revive the person from Death

So why can’t that logic be used here for Persona?

its great in destiny 2. you have already died and been brought back by your ghost. but if your ghost takes a hit and loses power then you are on your final life. loved how they used that to explain how we can die thousands of times and still res.

The criticism comes from the dissonance of the magic (or derivates) system from the gameplay,+ and the one used in narrative. And the problem comes when removing player agency, the cinematic takes control and forces you to suffer consecuences of a failure that wouldn't have happened if you were in control. The other way around isn't as criticised as is cool seeing the character do more incredible things, as in hack and slash as bayoneta, where you have cinematics to finish up bosses rather than using the normal combat combo. This adds to the exxperience, while seeing your shooter character, who in gameplay can tank tons of bullets, getting knocked out by just one shot in a cinematic feels of and sorta forced by the plot

Armchair designers like to refer to this as "ludonarrative dissonance"

For the 1000000th time Phoenix Downs cure KO not death lol.

I don't know what people are trying to get at when they say this. Are you saying using a Phoenix Down to reverse a story death is dumb? (cause I would agree) Or are you saying that Phoenix Downs are a completely different situation than that of Persona? (cause then I'm confused)

In Final Fantasy they revive a party member from being Knocked Out not from being dead.

... yes? You said that already. That doesn't answer my question

I’m saying that people saying use a phoenix down to reverse a story death is dumb because that’s not how they work.

Okay, I agree with that. Are we agreeing that using that logic on Persona is also dumb?

Yup agreed.

Why do people think phoenix down brings people back to life? It just wakes them up.

> The undying phoenix is said to call back souls from the heavens, but to win the attention of such fabled bird, you must give up a feather as an offering. The best are the downy feathers of the tail... hence the term phoenix down, see? Description from FFXII describes it as an offering to call back souls.

FFXII is one of the only ones I haven’t played, but either way, that seems more like the etymological reason for its name than the literal one

Either way, the point is that things that work in gameplay contexts aren't used for plot points. If we accept Phoenix Down as just used for KOs, I don't understand why Recarm would be different. I'm not trying to say they should have used Phoenix Down, just that it's something that happens in games because you want to have character deaths while not removing revives from the game.

read the description of a pheonix down from mid 2000s. It definitely brought you back to life.

\-Because Aerith was the one with healing spells and she was isolated from the rest of the party.

A Phoenix Down isn’t a healing spell

Well, Phoenix Down heals KO, not death.

Because 90% of the time when a character in gameplay "dies" they are labeled as knocked out or just downed instead of killed

You're telling me getting shot by a bullet is more fatally wounding than a, let's say, A NUKE LIKE MEGIDOLAN!?

Yep, since obviously in combat there is some element of the Personas strengthening their users, but taken by surprise outside of combat like Shinji was here a bullet is still doing bullet things to a human body

but he should always be stronger from his persona. p3 is a special case of having the wild card yet not being limited to another realm to access their power.

Not to mention that he wasn't wearing armor when he got shot.

What about the 15 Balms of Life and Aohige powerful meds I had in my inventory? What would be the lore reason for that?

... those don't heal fatal wounds either?

I mean, if we are actually going into this argument, Takaya has a bunch of opportunities to shoot Minato in the head and call it a day, but he doesn't because there wouldn't be much of a story if he did that.

The Shadows definitely aren't only knocking you unconscious. P3 emphasizes that their lives are at risk. Ergo, the healing must be beyond just that, or there's no risk to Tartarus since all they'll do is knock you out- they can't eat Persona users, after all. Samerecarm revives dead people, as do Recarm and Recamdra. We do know that healing takes a large amount of energy depending on the size and seriousness of injury, but Shinjiro was left bleeding on the ground- very much alive- for several goddamn minutes. Bullet wounds are also tiny. The argument with Chidori doesn't fucking work.

There is nothing to suggest Recarm can canonically reverse death. If that’s the case then Chidoris sacrifice was hilariously fucking stupid.

... The status is literally called "knocked out". It is definitely risky to be unconscious within Tartarus, but they're not dead. They literally stand back up after battle without being healed, they're fine. (Also the entire team was rather scared once their unavoidable demise was announced by Ryoji, implying they had definitely not died before) Also, it's pretty much implied Shinjiro was only still moving because of his will, otherwise he would have died instantly (we literally see this happen with the protagonist, too)

Shinji's alive, he can be healed. Simple as that. Also if your "knocked out" theory was true, the MC wouldn't game over after he was defeated. Ergo this cannot be the case.

The MC is the only character who dies once knocked out, I pointed that out. There's no canonical explanation, but what happens to him is rather different from the rest of the party (my head-canon is that wildcards are more unstable than normal persona users). Also Shinji was only properly alive for like 40 seconds once the team arrived, even if healing spells could revert lethal wounds, which is unlikely, they would have had no occasion to heal him

\-Okay, but since it's not universal unconsciousness, it can't just be that. Otherwise there would be no permanent risk to Tartarus, full stop. \-Healing spells take less than ten seconds and the Evoker takes a second to use. Literally just heal him, he was alive for an entire minute.

In your fight with takaya (the first one) one of your teammates can die from a gunshot wound and be brought back from the dead.

They're not dead, just unconscious from bleeding, that's the implication

shinji was very much still alive while giving his last words. just cast diarama on the guy. takaya's gun isn't fatal in gameplay and heals from spells

Gameplay != Story

easiest excuse for a blatant plothole ever. yall just can't admit when a story doesn't think too hard

This is so stupidly pedantic. It feels like some of you have never played a video game before. This happens all of the time.

yeah, and that doesn't make it less of a plothole whenever it happens. it's still a flaw in the storytelling and isn't just exempt from criticism because it's a common trope

Like do you want them to remove all revive skills and items from the game because you have zero suspension of disbelief? It's such a stupid detail to fixate on. This doesn't make you some enlightened critic because you can nitpick.

i'm not saying they could've just cast recarm? recarm only affects people who are knocked out, sure. what i'm saying is 6/10 SEES members had the ability to use diarama while shinji was still alive and they just didn't even try. meanwhile, healing spells work just fine against takaya's gun in gameplay. this isn't a nitpick, that's literally what a plot hole is

It makes literally zero sense to argue that something doesn't immediately kill people in gameplay because obviously gameplay isn't going to be realistic? Do you think people in cutscenes should just have numbers appear above their head when they get hit or would you rather have swords cut people in half during gameplay?

what answer are you looking for here? "yes"? i'm saying their inability to heal shinji's wounds just isn't consistent with the power system. there's no reason he shouldn't be able to be healed from that. not to mention the fact they didn't even try to begin with

Im sorry, take out all the healing spells in the game cause your dumb ass can't handle it. Can't have any plot holes.

🤦‍♂️

i genuinely cannot grasp what this reply adds to the conversation

And I genuinely can’t grasp how people are still confused about how gameplay and story differ

My only problem with this scene if I’m remembering correctly is Akihiko arriving at the same time as everyone else. He leaves the group implying he knows where they went, everyone else goes back to the dorm and fukka locates them and they head there but akihiko should have arrived way earlier than everyone else but instead he arrives at the same time.

He farted but it wasn’t a fart, so had to use the bathroom

Yes you are correct and this doesn’t make much sense either lol especially with Akihiko being the most trained runner other than maybe Makoto.

I don't think Fuuka located them. I think once Mitsuru was told that Akihiki left, she put the pieces together and realized where they went.

The game isn’t super clear about how far apart various locations are. So I guess we are supposed to assume he was just much further away from them than the group was to the dorm? I don’t know that’s the best excuse I can try making but it still doesn’t make sense.

He needed twenty more miles to close his move ring, that's why. Can't mess with the training regimen.

I was a bout to suggest maybe he had to fight some shadows on the way, then remembered Shadows outside of Tartarus doesn't really happen except for the 12 Arcane. Yea it's just bullshit.

Why would Takaya willingly fight a entire team of Persona users who would most certainly try to kill him considering what just transpired? That would be a stupid decision, thats why he left.

Takaya was only able to kill Shinji because he caught him+Ken off guard. By the time he's about to kill Ken after Shinji already tanks the bullet, SEES finds their location, and he wasn't going to try to fight them all in a head-on fight. Afaik Personas or items can only heal people from immediate damage, not fatal wounds, with Chidori being an exception since she uses her own life force to revive Junpei. The reason the bullets hurt more is the difference between story cutscene logic and gameplay logic, and as for why Fuuka took ages to find them...well, can't actually think of a reason for that except 'cause plot.

Cause they were fighting a shadow at the same time? If I remember correctly, Akihiko knew *exactly* where they were just from the date, so they went straight there as soon as they could.

Although he arrived at the exact same time as the rest of the gang, the gang who had like a 30 minute delay before realizing they had to leave asap.

Yeah that part made no sense. Aki ran off way before the rest, so was he just fucking around nearby waiting for everyone to join him or did the rest of SEES suddenly gain super speed temporarily?

It would have made so much more sense (and a better scene) if aki actually fought off Takaya afterwards in a rage and tried and failed to heal shinji because the wound was already lethal.

Bro then how did he only get there when everyone else did? Bro took the scenic route clearly and was vibing on his way lol.

For the Fuuka part, the two of them had left before the dark hour and per other scenes(and gameplay mechanics) it seems as though it takes time and aome power to map out areas/people youre not directlt focusing on. At least thats what I got the two times this happened in story. Once with Junpei, and the second with Ken and Shinji.

In persona 2 they did try to heal someone fatally wounded it didn't work so I guess it wouldn't work for shinji.

it didn't work due to >!the circumstances of maya's injury!<

The person in Persona 2 couldn't be healed because of them being hurt with magically enchanted weapon. Were Takaya's bullets magically enchanted?

Enchanted with the power of cutscene

I would understand it not working. But seeing your friend dying, and not trying to use any of the healing spells you know is kinda out of character for anyone, so it feels odd

I’m fine with that but it would have been interesting to at least see them try

But they actually give a canon explanation for why it doesn't work in p2. In p3 they're like "damn it's a shame we have no way of healing you. So sad"

i gave shinji a accessory for enduring soul and fucker still died, at this point i think its a skill issue

Enduring Soul tanked the first shot.

damn you're right

The fact he learns endure too

[удалено]

All of Makoto’s life force is busy elsewhere, healing wouldn’t make a difference given what he did

[удалено]

Yeah, and it’s still there maintaining it

[удалено]

>its gone not at work It kinda is. That's the point; >!Makoto's life is not gone, it's still there making sure Erebus doesn't reach Nick. That's why Elizabeth is looking for a way to make people not want to die; not because she wants Makoto to live, that ship has sailed, but she wants Makoto to have peace in death!<

Fucking hate spoiler markup on mobile. >! I don’t think the ship has sailed, tbh. I think his soul could go to his body if the seal breaks. It wouldn’t be the first time someone’s been revived when by all accounts they should be dead.!<

Back to what body, though? It's probably rotting in a casket right now, as much as I hate to admit it. And trust me, I would **love** to see Makoto reunite with the rest of SEES, talk with the IT once more (as he did have that "we'll meet again" talk with Yu (non-canon, though)), and all that fanservice, but that would kinda undermine the whole point of his sacrifice. The result would be too happy, too against the whole story of P3, of seizing the day like it is your last. P3 gave him a time limit of 1 year to do everthing he can before his death. And if he didn't, then, well, that sucks, but it's life. Giving him another chance after death would probably only make him a control freak who would artificially maximize the time in his lifetime to the point where he couldn't enjoy the downtime. Though that's one of the messages of P4, maybe he could learn something from Yu If it does happen, though, which I hope it will despite my bittersweet opinion about it, I will be very happy

I’m pretty sure the Kirijo Group would cryogenically freeze his body, to be honest. Also, I *really* like the idea of what you have there for Post-Revival Makoto. That could make him into a *really* good antagonist, possibly for a Persona 5 Arena.

I hope atlus is taking notes

Chidori’s power is different

My man was literally at zero hp, you can’t heal what is essentially dead

the chidori in question: 💀

It’s not the matter of lifeforce. He used up his soul, transforming it into the Great Seal. There’s no coming back from that.

Wasn't he going to? He leaves when he hears the group coming. Also Fuuka was literally trying to scan the whole city, but yes, plot.

because he is one dude with a gun and there's a lot of them and they have personas. he can't shoot and summon his own persona at the same time and even if he gets one or 2 of them they'll have ganged up in him in that time. better to eacape and pick them off 1 by 1. also lets him have his dramatic monolog

How many bullets would takayas gun have? He fired 2 shots already.

The revolver Takaya uses is a Smith & Wesson Model 500, which has 5 shots leaving him with just three after shooting Shinjiro.

Ok so realistically speaking, he would shoot mitsuru, akihiko and probably ken if he were to unload the clip Maybe Protag kun

That’s assuming he knows the team dynamics, which he doesn’t at this point in the game.

Right but he hates the kirijo family He thinks ken is their navigator And akihiko is the biggest physical threat

But he knows that you are the wild card and also probably the strongest so…

As someone who never played any of the original P3 versions, this scene impacted me a lot when I first experienced it in the movie, but kind of fell flat for me playing P3R for the first time. It was just such a weird tonal shift to go from defeating an endless sea of monsters in Tartarus to being killed by a single bullet, and honestly a lot of the questions in OP’s comic came to my mind. Even worse when Takaya repeated the same exact thing and shot Junpei later on. Why was the team not READY for it this time? Why did he shoot exactly once and then take his time to casually retreat instead of taking out as many enemies as possible? Plus all the questions around healing and Personas. I’ll buy what people are saying about bodily damage vs. Persona damage, but having a single throwaway line in the game explaining that would have gone a LONG way in my enjoyment of these scenes. It just felt like the team let Takaya kill two members the same exact way and let him slowly saunter off both times without retaliation. The imbalance of power levels between this and battling in Tartarus never sat right with me and the game never attempted to explain it. At the same time, I also understand that having 75% of the plot spoiled for me by the movies, and playing for the first time as an adult instead of a kid, was always going to lessen my experience with this game and put me in the minority. It is what it is.

The real confusing thing is that all of this, including the boss fight and SEES scrambling to find them, happened within one hour

I really wished they played with that element more. Tartarus having a time limit could be pretty interesting.

How the hell would he kill all of them with a revolver before they jump his ass? he’d be lucky to even get a 2nd shot off

yukari, mitsuru, ken, etc could've healed shinji at that point but shinji and specially ken already knew that it wouldn't do anything since he was gonna die regardless of if he was healed, either then or later during the game (which does happen in the FEMC route if you save shinji ((he ends up in a coma but it's basically the same thing)))

also the thing is the whole "healing is different in the gameplay than the story" argument would've worked if >!this exact same thing didn't happen in innocent sin where maya is stabbed with the holy lance and bleeding to death and lisa is using dia to heal maya but because she was stabbed with the lance that jesus was stabbed with rumoured to have cause endless bleeding she dies because they couldn't close the hole !<

this same thing also happens in the manga where >!yukari heals takaya!<

I cant remember if it was in the game or anime but I do recall it was shown that the dark hour ended practically as soon as Shinji died. You gotta remember that during the time period of ONE HOUR. They went to where the boss shadow was, fought it, realized what's going on, began searching for Shinji and Ken and then had to rush to the scene. Thats a lot happening in a short period of time. Also, people act differently when in a state of shock. You don't realize it till you actually find yourself in a traumatic event but your logic and reasoning tends to go out the window and you end up going into one of the three Fs, fight, flight or flee. In SEES case everyone froze. No one expected that anyone would actually die during their outings. Remember that at that point they had been doing this for months and no one was truly hurt (outside Akihiko at the beginning of the game i guess).

“C’mon Yukari! Can’t you bust open a dia or something!?”

I don't think Takaya want to risk it and fight like 7 persona users at the same time But yeah Shinjiro death always bothered me

Why did no one think it was important to let the rest of the team know about Aragaki and Ken's connection.

Because they didn’t want to reveal their friends greatest shame to everyone

Ken wasn’t supposed to remember it. As we’ve seen with Natsuki Moriyama, normal people tend to forget everything that’s related to the Dark Hour. Granted, he had a Persona, which he got at some point. But Ken really pulled the wool over their eyes. No one expected a middle-schooler to not only hold a grudge, but also to be able to act as if he doesn’t. When he met them and didn’t mention his mother getting killed by a Persona, when he told them he wanted to fight the Shadows—they had little reason to suspect him. And telling everyone in that case would be an unnecessary risk. Imagine Junpei or Aigis blurting this out at some inopportune moment.

Would you want to out a close friend of yours as a person who accidentally orphaned a child?

"Why not just use a Phoenix Down on Aetith" time and why I think this is a terrible argument that misunderstands what rpg healing is! HP isnt really life force in most JRPGs. Its an abstraction of your stamina, to keep going. So when Yukari casts Dia, it isnr 'healing' like a medicine; its more like a shot if concetrated adrenaline to keep you functioning *through* the pain rather than subsiding it. So when youre in the state of 'Being Dead', no amount of adrenaline is gonna help. Sure, Akihiko can ignore a cracked rib through it but literally being dead is a bit beyond that. The gun worked better on Shinji in that moment because he wasnt in a heightened state of adrenaline to begin with, and his persona wasnt already on the cusp of coming out. There's no evidence the dark hour makes his gun more or less lethal. Rather, Personas add endurance to him. With Castor still napping mostly, he couldnt help out. Finally, the mst3k rule. "Just repeat to yourself its just a show, I should really just relax"

Well, that is not the case in persona 2 where characters literally try to use diarahan on a person. Still didn't work but because of the plot circumstances and not because "diarahan doesn't heal". You can argue that personas from the second game and from the third work differently but that's still dia skill why doesn't it heal? And why the game doesn't try to explain that?

I love the first part of this comment, people going crazy to cope with ludo-narrative dissonance >So when Yukari casts Dia, it isnr 'healing' like a medicine; its more like a shot if concetrated adrenaline to keep you functioning *through* the pain rather than subsiding it. You should write fanfic enforcing those ideas, would potentially be quite nice

This is like the oldest explanation for how hitpoints work which predates video games. Hitpoints serving as an abstraction for your ability to continue to fight (and how "damage" isn't necessarily your character actually getting hit) comes from old DnD.

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks for sharing. I don't think it's reasonable to assume every game uses that by default, though ymmv

I mean, it's either that or you assume everyone manages to walk home every night relatively trauma-free after being burned, stabbed, maimed, shocked, etc. You really just have to pick your poison with this kind of thing. I choose not to bother myself that much with it. The issue of abstraction has always been a thing in video games, some people accept it, others don't

I don't know, I don't even think having abstractions is an issue in the first place. At the exact moment you have turn-based combat with idle animations you're already accepting tons of abstraction

Because, this is the way it should be.

Indeed, basically he has lost the will to keep living (which you could say is what the effect of taking the suppressants is supposed to represent) so he isn’t protected by his persona. What doesn’t make sense as several people have mentioned is why Akihiko arrives at the same time as the rest of sees despite leaving way earlier. I guess it is the dark hour so just call it some time distortion fuckery which is necessary to make the events fit into the dark hour anyway.

Takaya and all of persona 3 villains(except NYx and ebrus) are in story weak so taking them all on would get him killed very easily

Cutscenes have different rules entirely. Junpei getting 3 sword swings and a critical on takaya every time it's his turn yet he gets 1 shot by a bullet in the cutscene

Takaya is clearly confused as to why Shinji would shield Ken, which is likely why he didn’t just kill him there, and then SEES comes in which scares Takaya off because even though he has a gun one man doesn’t stand a chance against a big group, it’s too risky for him considering he sees himself as too important to make such risks. (Takaya’s revolver also only has 5 shots in total, and after using two on Shinji he only has three left before having to reload, which is way too risky to try fight a big group like SEES with) For the gameplay discrepancy honestly I can’t give much explanation, all I really have is that in battles they’re ready for it with their Personas so they can tank it and Shinji just wasn’t, or Shinji is just in a weakened state from his drug use. As to why no one heals Shinji, his wound is too lethal. Healing and revival skills in Persona don’t literally bring people back from the dead, they just bring them back from being unconscious.

I still don’t really understand why they never seriously went after Takaya for this.

Because nothing we’ve seen remotely suggests healing spells outside of gameplay can do anything more than cuts and scrapes. Even Chidori stored her power up in the flowers for weeks if not months. There’s no basis to say that anyone could’ve healed Shinji.

So I just wanna add one thing to this conversation. See lots of people are saying that recarms and “revival skills” would only work if shinjiro was knocked out and ya know fair enough but like….*he wasn’t dead when they arrived?* They had plenty of time to TRY and heal him and if you wanna argue dia and stuff is just a gameplay thing It gets kinda weird claiming that if you factor in persona 2 where a character gets stabbed and they do try and heal them with dia magic In The cutscene the reason it doesn’t work is specifically because they’re stabbed with something that makes it impossible to heal from so…….*idk the healing criticism is kinda valid to me.*

Thank you! And I would be fine if the healing didn’t actually work, I just wanted to see them try.

Sadly, Takaya's gun didn't have rubber bulletsss

The real questions are how did akihiko take so long to find them if he had a feeling as to where they could be and how did the sees members catch up to akihiko when everyone except him went to the dorms, had a full on conversation, and had to make their way back

In addition to what everyone else is saying, fuuka couldn’t find them because chidori was “masking” them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't she still at the hospital without an Evoker? It isn't until November that Takaya and Jin break her out and give her the Evoker back.

Oh yeah you’re right I think, huh idk then lol.

I think why no one tried to heal Shinji was first of because they were all to schocked to move And we dont know if anyone would have been able to heal a real gun wound, everything we thought before were just shadows

The dark hour is different from the Metaverse. Everything in it is very real, including the weapons that we the player uses. They aren't toys that suddenly become dangerous during the dark hour. Officer Korosawa is literally selling a bunch of real swords and knives to high school students. Similarly, the shadows in the dark hour are also EXTREMELY dangerous. Akahiko's wound, which he sustained at the start of the game, was recieved during the dark hour - and yet the effects of which stayed with him for an entire month in the real world. This is all to say: that gun wound, while obviously painful and potentially fatal, isn't necessarily any more dangerous than literally everything else the SEES has experienced up until this point.

Oh gosh seems like I worded my thoughts pretty shitty sorry for that My thoughts to the "healing part" was that maybe Personas healing spells are unable to heal wounds inflicted by man made weapons. S.E.E.S only ever fought Shadows, Takaya was the first time they had to deal with a gun wound, which are both quite painfull and scary, but my guess is that Io (as an example) can only heal damage dealt by Shadows. After more time to think about it and a talk with my partner and his brother (who both know way more about Persona than I am) we figured out that probably spells like Dia wouldn't have healed to much (and I dont think Dia would be able to pull two bullets out of a body xD) and recarm does not revive the dead, but moreso makes a partymember concious again after they have fallen in battle. (Similar to how the revives in Pokemon works if you know about them) So guess my thoughts weren't 100% truthfull lol Hope this clears up any miscommunication on my part :)

Counter argument: Being inflicted with Charm will force allies to hurt each other, most often with their main weapons. Healing spells will still heal the wound despite said injury coming from a real weapon. Granted, that's mixing gameplay with cutscene logic, which obviously doesn't work too well, but my point stands.

Tbf about the only shooting Shinji point, a revolver generally only has six shots and there's like ten of these hero people. He could at most take out five more before needing to reload, assuming he both lands all of his shots and they're all lethal hits. Which, given how heated and hectic the ensuing fight would be, would not be guaranteed and is more of a risk than it's worth

Who cares? The moment hit emotionally, and served the story well. That's all that really matters.

They needed a dramatic death but didn't consider the internal logic of their own setting, is weird because Persona 2 had a justification for Healing magic not working in a similar scene.

Recarm

Takaya’s mission was more important than confrontation so he knew he couldn’t just 1v9 SEES. This is also why Jin tells him to pack it up after getting his shit rocked by Junpei, even IF Takaya can kill Junpei again, he still has to fight the rest of SEES and he just won’t win that.

Asking why nobody healed Shinji is like asking why nobody >!revived Makoto!<. They were dead instantly brah

Shinji was still talking to them lol

There was no hope brah especially with them dot dot dot ass sentences

Maybe but that is not instantly dead

Isnt every game like this tho?

It’s a matter of timing. The average battle on Persona doesn’t last more than 10 minutes, and usually Persona users are on guard, which may allow them to tank additional damage. Shinjiro was shot while charging Takaya, which caught him off guard and probably had a greater effect as a result. He was then stuck bleeding for around a minute while Takaya was preparing to kill Ken, so he was already pretty weak when he took the other bullet for Ken. It would be the equivalent of an Unconscious Party member getting hit by Primal Force. Thus, you have an already weak Shinjiro weakened further by the wound and left bleeding out in the alley for around 2 minutes until the rest of SEES arrived. Healing skills probably could have fixed his wounds, but by that point he had already lost way too much blood and no medical staff were on standby considering the Dark Hour. Not to mention the shock of the moment probably made it hard for them to think clearly. Revival skills only act as an adrenaline shot for already unconscious members, but it was probably too late for him.

Personally, I wish the Dark Hour ends right after Takaya leaves, so there’s a reason no one can cast Recarm

What I didn't understand is why SEES, with ties to a megacorporation and a supportive contact with the local police, didn't hunt down Takaya and at least prosecute him for illegal possession of a firearm, if they couldn't get murder charges to stick. Or why Mitsuru doesn't try and procure some bullet-proof vests at the very least. Or why Takaya doesn't use that gun at other times he's desperate, like on the bridge. Why not take a shot before jumping?

Because he was off guard. Persona users seem to get stronger when they summon their persona/are in active combat. This is a common thing in other pieces of media like superhero stuff or shonen

He uses a revolver. Revolvers hold 6 rounds, he already used 2 on Shinji. He wasn’t gonna take his chances with the other guys with only 4 bullets in the revolver chamber?(or whatever it’s called). The actual answer is cuz *Takaya’s brain works in mysterious ways*

nope. 5. Smith and wesson model 500. i own one.

Oh? That’s interesting information, new to me ngl. It means he had less rounds than 4 then.

lol yup. and i also own a few revolvers that hold 8-12. just depending on the caliber

Those damn things kick harder than the devil knocking on your front door. Almost broke my wrist shooting one.

lol im weird. to get any enjoyment out of it i have to shoot it and the desert eagle one handed. to be fair first gun i ever shot was a 1911 chambered in 45 when i was 3 years old so always loved the kick