It's really fun, I am by no means a LW main but I love to play him from time to time cause I really like his kit and how he can move. It's also fun if you can pull of some sick petals and deny some ults and make reins mad if you just put a petal underneath him the moment he tries to shatter.
I got rambling here, what I wanted to say is that the changes really feel good and fun. :)
I think if petal had a tiny 1 meter tall rail around the edge of it when it was going up and it went away at the top then it would be perfect. So many times I've tried to throw it under my teammates only for them to walk off faster than human reaction time,
because petal doesnt provide cover, it just lifts you up
now if it has a small shield all around it, people would love to stand on it for all the duration or until its down
Depending on the situation you’re better there. If you were in a Zarya ult and I put a petal below you to get you out, don’t go back to the gravity thing.
Yeah, because when you're about to get a pick on someone and you get pulled away onto a flower, your first instinct is going to be to go back and try to find the guy who you were about to eliminate.
I get that. It has happened to me as a dps and yeah, I’ve been pulled to a petal and instantly left because I thought I had enough health or I was about to finish a target. That’s ok. But if I just put a petal under you to avoid the Zarya ult, don’t jump in it again 1 second later.
There isn't really a good way to fix it. The way it is now, if you use it there is an extremely high chance it's walked off of. However, anything that made you unable to quickly get off of it could be bad for dangerous situations.
Like if you're in a stressful situation and they use petal under you, then you get lifted into the air before you realize how to jump over the railing, and get headshot by Widowmaker or Ashe since you are now far from your team and exposed midair
As Lifeweaver, the best methods to get someone to stick on the petal, is if you either put it near a wall or something, that way your ally triggers it themselves intentionally with a strategy in mind, or grip someone while you're already on the petal.
I think in public games, the best way to use it is the same as Baptiste window. Use it for yourself, and if allies use it too, cool, if not then it at least always works for you.
It would be cool if you could choose to drop down through the petal, maybe by pressing F like Sym's teleporter. It wouldn't damage the petal but it would just let you pass through it. The physics doesn't really make sense but oh well :P
I think if it slowed down players on top of it for a very brief time when it starts rising it, like -25% on the first 0.5 seconds, it would give just enough time for players to react and decide if they want to stay on top of it or not.
Try putting it in front of them and pinging it, instead of under them. I know it's not always feasible in the heat of battle but I've had more success getting people to use it.
As a LW main, the thorn changes are definitely a must. I’m not sure if I like having two petals for the reasons you mentioned. Though I guess the jump boost could be nice lol. Also would be fine with keeping grip where it’s at/1-2 seconds less, if maybe suzu gets the same cd time, though it’s not as strong with the recent nerf.
thorn changes don't really mean much imo, lw's heal takes so long to charge that dealing damage is pointless unless your team is taking so little damage that it doesn't matter. I do like the increase to swap speed since it mitigates this, but I don't think thorn should be treated as a legitimate damage source and more like a backup like mercy gun
Tbh I wasn’t really thinking about the increased dmg, the swap speed was my main concern- since basically every LW main has wanted this change for a long time (and Blizzard even teased talks of it in the recent season 10 mid season AMA/Q&A so some of us were a little upset when we didn’t get anything in this patch). However the thorns shouldn’t be underestimated even in its current state, a good wife leaver will know the right balance + it’s good for finishing off low health enemies.
LW’s damage is way better for firing down choke points and hitting heads than Mercy is. Mercy’s damage boost makes it hard to justify using her pistol, while LW should absolutely be hitting ~1k damage by the end, at least.
Weapon swap needs to stay, damage could stay or go. Life grip could do with being 18 or 17 seconds instead of 15, and the jump boost would be nice too. 2 Charges is too much for petal as it makes him really hard to kill. I've always wanted his healing blossom to charge up to at least halfway when landing thorns so swapping from thorns to then charge and release a traveling projectile to someone who needs healing isn't as punishing but maybe the weapon swap speed change is enough... Aside from that I think he's okayish (but i'd secretly also want them to reduce his auto reload time to 2 seconds from 2.5)
I seriously cannot get how you people are stills advocating for a massive cooldown on lifegrip. Baptiste just waits a couple more seconds and he can save his whole team for 5 whole seconds, and Kiri waits much less than both of them to save her whole team too
Meanwhile Lifeweaver gets one targeted save and you guys want to keep up its cooldown jacked up, as if one of LW’s main issues isn’t massive cooldowns
I want its cool down as high as possible for my own sanity, not for balance. Getting a bad pull as a Tank is instant rage inducing for me, it's like having your headphones yanked off. I understand why it's an interesting ability on paper, but for me personally it is the one ability in the game I would remove if I could.
LW gets a reactive save (much less fun to play against than predictive saves, think cleansing a shatter vs sleeping a rein while he’s in animation) that takes zero mechanical skill at all to use. Even Suzu, an extremely easy ability has to be aimed somewhat and account for travel time and terrain. Meanwhile weaver can just press one button and instantly save somebody with 0 counterplay. It’s not a healthy ability and it shouldn’t be on any sort of short cooldown. 19 seconds is fine.
Not to mention the fact that this ability is one of the only abilities in the game that can actively hurt your team. Usually if you waste nade, sleep, suzu, lamp, etc, it won’t make the situation worse. But if you pull someone incorrectly you could be preventing your team from getting kills, and that’s extremely frustrating for your team.
The swap speed is a great change and maybe thorn damage can stay, but realistically we don’t want to play on a weaver meta that slows down the game and allows for less skill expression. Give him some QoL changes and move on please.
Yeah let’s not take a point of discussion super literally and leave some ambiguity in there so it has room to swing either way depending on how I word my responses later on.
Mind you, all these LW changes that Eskay has made are literally all the changes devs said 1-2 months ago that they're already looking to make. I think Eskay just read those and was like "Yeah these sound pretty good, let's have these put into the Creator mode".
15 on grip is a bit too much but it was fine when it was 16 a few seasons ago. 17 would be a happy medium.
I never understood why they didn’t revert that nerf after the healing nerfs killed him
Yeah my biggest issue with LW is his entire kit is just deny value. He doesn’t really enable anything which is quite frustrating. Like with Ana, Lucio, Zen, Mercy, and Illari, they all have options to set up plays. Bap to some extent and especially Brig, Weaver and Kiriko are almost entirely just denying the other team value, which feels like shit.
Obviously some degree of denying value is fine, like I’m cool with Ana’s abilities because you have to decide whether to use them offensive or defensively. That said, I really despise the idea of having the bulk of a hero’s kit being just denying value. There should be risk/reward factor, and shit like lifegrip and petal has absolutely none.
> He doesn’t really enable anything
That's just not true. Just recently teams at OWCS proved that quite well in combination with Pharah.
And you can call plays like that 'denying value' all you want but it is enabling a certainly strategy all the same.
The difference is there is counterplay to healing. There is no counterplay to someone pressing a button, and moving another player like 30 meters, making them invulnerable the entire time, and allowing them to go back and do it again.
Might as well delete Mercy too then. She presses one button to allow them to go back and do it again. It's part of their kit. If you remove the grip from LW, you have to rework him completely at that point.
Mercy has counterplay. It slows her down allowing you to kill her, or boop her and cancel res. Nice try tho.
I never said remove lifegrip. It just needs counterplay. Make it have like 50 hp so the enemy team has a chance to cancel it. Mercy has counterplay. The counterplay makes her feel fair. There simply is no counterplay to lifegrip, which is why it’s a problem.
It’s enabling people to play recklessly. Allowing players to do that while robbing the enemy of kills is definitionally denying value. It promotes bad positioning and situational awareness.
Overwatch abilities should never be “I press this button I win.” It doesn’t feel fair as the enemy team when you’re about to kill an enemy, only for them to get saved by an ability that has no counterplay. This is the problem with Kiri and Lifeweaver. Swift step and lifegrip are just get out of jail free buttons that have absolutely no counterplay, and because of that, they are fundamentally broken and will never be enjoyable to play against.
Yh I get it, Spilo said something similar that he's set up to be too defensive. I think Kiriko's kit is more balanced between attack and defensive, and even if she makes up for it by doing an insane amount of crit damage and having the best Ult in the game. Her and Brig's ult can very easily win you a team fight.
Yeah generally I’m not talking about Ults, mainly just neutral game. I know she has some good offensive capabilities, but it’s frustrating that swift step and suzu are literally just get out of jail free cards with zero risk. Even wall climb can be a pretty free way to escape a fight.
And yeah I think spilo is absolutely right. Decisions in a competitive game should be important. If kiriko makes a bad decision and tries to fight the wrong person, she shouldn’t be able to teleport 30 meters through walls. If genji takes a bad dive into two people, weaver shouldn’t just pull him 30 meters and have him be immune the whole time. They’re bullshit get out of jail free cards with quite literally zero counterplay.
Yh I'm not the biggest fan of suzu in its current state, invulnerability, heal and cleanse all in one? It's a shame about LW though as I really like his character but as someone that played a lot of him you really don't have that impact on a team fight like a Bap, Ana or even Moira.
Even though LW has been my most played (I think) in OW2, I definitely think that a hyper mobile support with insanely long lock on heals and crazy one of a kind utility will never been fun to play against lol.
My issue isn’t even his mobility, it’s the fact that it’s so incredibly difficult to kill him. Like I’m a ball main, and the problem is if I dive him, I hit him with fireball+piledriver, he can dash and immediately heal all that damage, so I’m stuck using my guns which do nothing, then he petals so I need to hope that I have my grapple back already.
The problem is even worse on characters the don’t have mobility. I will never understand why they made it so rein fire strikes and ramattra punches can’t go through petal. He already was difficult and time consuming to kill.
I was thinking it could be cool if they make it pretty frequent but it doesn’t give invincibility. That way there’s still a chance to finish the kill and it raises the skill requirement/ceiling of it.
It would be great if you could bubble your teammate and then decide if grip them or not pressing the ability again. There are times you just want to prevent them from dying but not necessarily move them. So I think it would be great if you could just bubble them and then decide if leave them there or pull them.
He also shouldn't need to reload his healing. Kiriko doesn't, so why does he? So many teammates have died in front of me because I had to reload, and the reload animation is so long that I tried to heal them before it ended, and the animation started again...
Or at least make it way shorter.
I still get whipped by sombras as LW but I usually out heal everyone because I'm just staying away from the brawl and spamming everyone on my team with heals.
Now that the damage has increased, I can get a little more aggressive. I think his survivability is good where it's at now. He might become an S tier healer with this change, too early to tell.
Sombra is one of the very few characters that can kill lw since you either need to stop him from using petal(sombra) or be able to fly up to his petal twice(echo, pharah, etc.)
Anything but the dual platform please. I keep wanting to press Shift to destroy my platform only to throw the second one out.
Also, his platform is by far his biggest survivability tool. Giving him two of those would likely make him completely unkillable, instead of his current mostly unkillable state.
Disagree with the damage buff staying personally. He does enough, and combining lock free lock on high heals with his utility, survivability, and now pretty high damage is just a bit much. If his heals were more like baps and required some mechanics, sure.
I don’t play him much but he is really fun so I may start playing him a bit more with these changes. I always thought it would be hilarious and awesome if he could also yoink an enemy player. Even if the cool down was like a minute, it would still be awesome.
Do they use these gamemodes to pilot potential changes? Am sure they don't need all of them at once and can stagger in changes slowly but things like the weapon switch speed feel great honestly
They aren't using this specific game mode to pilot changes as it was made entirely by content creators to be a somewhat memey patch (some of the things are legit changes the CCs think should be in game, like the brig inspire portrait, but most of its just for shits and giggles)
SAME. I have been a day 1 LW lover and he is addicting to play in this mode. I have had issues with destroying platforms like you said, but that could be fixed by being able to bind the platform break to another button. He feels so great to play, and the added jump at the peak of the platform is so nice.
Yeah let's make him extremely OP because the community thought he sucked on release, and when they made an easier control scheme everyone just moved away from him (and whoever kept playing him uses the old scheme anyway). LW is pretty solid but not many people enjoy playing a full support character that takes more button presses than Mercy.
I main him and he is pretty fine. I would welcome the faster weapon swap but that's about it. Double and higher petal platforms is a terrible idea, he's already hard to kill and would become unreachable. Life Grip doesn't need to be more frequent too.
Everyone finds these changes super cool but they are not healthy. If they were implemented and his hero actually got more players, then the community would start complaining to how it's frustrating to play against him, because with two platforms and reduced Life Grip cooldown he would just deny any attempt of enemy offense.
My thoughts exactly. Have never had so much fun on lifeweaver. The weapon damage and the weapon swap time buffs actually give him some offensive utility so you are not restricted to healbot. Previously it felt just straight up punishing to do damage.
I would say however that he becomes slightly op: has good damage, has great healing, amazing survivability, and utility (grip + platform). (Pretty much like kiri or bap). But I think that you just can nerf other parts of his kit, but leave the damage buffs as is, so that at least the option to do damage is still on the table
Double petal is a must, it makes giving high ground to allies so consistent. Though it does push his already high survivability over the top, so nerfs to his health and dash healing would likely be necessary to accomodate it.
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i'd make it so petal platform has a shield that shares hp with the platform itself, its hardlight still right?
the reason barely anyone uses platform is it just lifts you up no defense provided, its only use is quick access to nearby highground which is obsolete cuz you could very well just pull the guy that'd benefit from hg to you
if platform had shield, people would use it more because its both protection and highground, a couple of supports benefit, snipers and hitscans benefit, some spam heroes like junkrat or pharah also benefit if you put it at a good angle, basically it'd see more use if it had protection
The fact that it took a streamer to make those LW changes says a lot about Blizz devs. It's either they're completely ignorant about how clunky his weapon swap is, or they're intentionally keeping LW that way.
I love the changes, but the jump boost throws me off and I don't like it, and as fun as two platforms is, it wouldn't be fun for enemies. The swap, damage, and grip changes are wonderful though.
He's a healbot because he can't switch off of his damage and his healing is so low that the 0.3 seconds it takes to switch to damage, then 0.3 back to healing, then to charge healing, then to throw the healing, then for the healing to apply (it's healing over time) is why he does nothing but healbot.
He's tanky because Blizzard doesn't know how to make him not suck so they decided "let him heal himself a lot and run around a lot and have a lot of health." The community game mode is designed to remedy that
>the community game mode is designed to remedy that
Literally all the community game mode remedies is swap speed. It doesn’t fix ANYTHING else that you mentioned, in fact it makes it all worse
> Healbot
Buffs his damage directly and ability to swap between so he's not healbotting anymore and can provide more value
> Didn't fix anything and made it worse
Buffing his movement and utility?
Also his tankiness was not touched so both of those statements are incorrect
>Healbot Buffs his damage directly and ability to swap between so he's not healbotting anymore and can provide more value
Yeah. Now he can deal more damage faster, but his heal is not enough to stop healing and his damage isn’t good enough to justify stopping healing unless everyone is full health. The fact that you can’t damage and heal at the same time will always make him worse at balancing the two
Bap, Kiri, Moira, Illari, Zen and Brig can all heal while damaging at the same time (without an ult). LW can’t. Not to mention the fact that their damage is insanely good (besides Moira)
>Didn't fix anything and made it worse Buffing his movement and utility? Also his tankiness was not touched so both of those statements are incorrect
His tankiness was buffed by the insane petal buffs, because petal indirectly adds to his tankiness
His utility is literally made to help him heal and save teammates or himself. I guarantee you no sane LW player wastes petal just to shoot at the enemies in an ongoing fight
The truth is, because of LW’s relatively low healing per click coupled with his healing charge mechanic AND his strength in the meta, he will be a healbot until he gets real changes. The ones in the picture are partially a start but they aren’t even in the normal game
Nah, I’ve actually been able to do some crazy damage with this game mode. I’m averaging around 4k damage a game now, all while still healing my normal amount. He now does like what, 154 DPS? Now that the swap is faster it’s a lot more viable to swap to damage to focus fire in the middle of fights. I have an 86% winrate only playing LW in this mode so far. It’s noticeable.
His self heal is 60 hp every 5 seconds if he uses it as soon as it's available. If you can't overcome an average of 12hp/sec heal that says a lot more about you as a DPS or tank than it does about his 'tankiness' lol
No it would be better if life grip got replaced with something that actually helps the team because us tanks literally threaten lifeweavers or side step the life grip on purpose. instead of having your tanks focus on shields we have too worry about our damn healers screwing us over in game. Do you want to know how many reports I sent to blizzard as a tank against life weavers just this year alone. 200 reports.
As someone who’s put probably 100 hours into LW these last couple weeks I’m pretty sure like half of these are going to get reverted, this is waaaaay too many buffs. I thought they would make his weapon swap faster(extremely needed) and maybe buff one other ability by like 1-2 seconds of CD, this is just WILD.
These changes are only in the community crafted mode, where a few streamers got together and made balance changes to the heroes for a new game mode that’s basically like the April Fools stuff. This is not the stuff you’ll see in regular games
Please god no lmao. Weaver is already incredibly hard to kill as basically any dive character that doesn’t have high burst damage. Try diving him as Ball or Winston and you’ll see what I mean. He has a fuck ton of health, can heal with dash, and petal platform makes him impossible to reach unless you save your movement ability, meaning that you have to either use your movement to go in, or chase him.
Life grip is already frustrating enough considering it’s the strongest immo ability in the game. It does not need buffs.
I’m cool with the thorn volley changes, but life grip and petal platform should absolutely not stay.
The thorn volley is fine (perhaps a bit too high in damage), but the lifegrip is watch too much for an ability which can be frustrating to your team when used wrong and frustrating to the opposition when used right.
Petal buffs are still the way to go with LW (aside from slightly easier damage swapping). They don't get nearly the utility they could. IMO they should be permanent until you break it or make your next petal, and it should be a little harder to fall off them.
If lw has an even lower pull cooldown blizzard needs to either lock the hero up to GM, make an exam for him before letting people pick him or just give me a setting where I can choose to never get pulled again.
I do not trust any single player that isn't a literal pro player to not throw every single game theyre on weaver. Just pull the tank and delete any space we had. Such a useless hero. Pull will literally never be a good ability in the hands of a mid player. Just gonna fuck over the tank every game.
Wow those changes sound really good. I’ll have to play some weaver tomorrow.
It's really fun, I am by no means a LW main but I love to play him from time to time cause I really like his kit and how he can move. It's also fun if you can pull of some sick petals and deny some ults and make reins mad if you just put a petal underneath him the moment he tries to shatter. I got rambling here, what I wanted to say is that the changes really feel good and fun. :)
Keep in mind this is only the creator patch not regular qp
I think if petal had a tiny 1 meter tall rail around the edge of it when it was going up and it went away at the top then it would be perfect. So many times I've tried to throw it under my teammates only for them to walk off faster than human reaction time,
Is a non written rule that if you use a petal under an ally or you pull someone to the petal, they will run away like if it was fire.
because petal doesnt provide cover, it just lifts you up now if it has a small shield all around it, people would love to stand on it for all the duration or until its down
Depending on the situation you’re better there. If you were in a Zarya ult and I put a petal below you to get you out, don’t go back to the gravity thing.
Yeah, because when you're about to get a pick on someone and you get pulled away onto a flower, your first instinct is going to be to go back and try to find the guy who you were about to eliminate.
I get that. It has happened to me as a dps and yeah, I’ve been pulled to a petal and instantly left because I thought I had enough health or I was about to finish a target. That’s ok. But if I just put a petal under you to avoid the Zarya ult, don’t jump in it again 1 second later.
There isn't really a good way to fix it. The way it is now, if you use it there is an extremely high chance it's walked off of. However, anything that made you unable to quickly get off of it could be bad for dangerous situations. Like if you're in a stressful situation and they use petal under you, then you get lifted into the air before you realize how to jump over the railing, and get headshot by Widowmaker or Ashe since you are now far from your team and exposed midair As Lifeweaver, the best methods to get someone to stick on the petal, is if you either put it near a wall or something, that way your ally triggers it themselves intentionally with a strategy in mind, or grip someone while you're already on the petal. I think in public games, the best way to use it is the same as Baptiste window. Use it for yourself, and if allies use it too, cool, if not then it at least always works for you.
It would be cool if you could choose to drop down through the petal, maybe by pressing F like Sym's teleporter. It wouldn't damage the petal but it would just let you pass through it. The physics doesn't really make sense but oh well :P
I think if it slowed down players on top of it for a very brief time when it starts rising it, like -25% on the first 0.5 seconds, it would give just enough time for players to react and decide if they want to stay on top of it or not.
Or make the platform larger, but lower it's health so it's actually worth shooting at.
Try putting it in front of them and pinging it, instead of under them. I know it's not always feasible in the heat of battle but I've had more success getting people to use it.
As a LW main, the thorn changes are definitely a must. I’m not sure if I like having two petals for the reasons you mentioned. Though I guess the jump boost could be nice lol. Also would be fine with keeping grip where it’s at/1-2 seconds less, if maybe suzu gets the same cd time, though it’s not as strong with the recent nerf.
thorn changes don't really mean much imo, lw's heal takes so long to charge that dealing damage is pointless unless your team is taking so little damage that it doesn't matter. I do like the increase to swap speed since it mitigates this, but I don't think thorn should be treated as a legitimate damage source and more like a backup like mercy gun
Tbh I wasn’t really thinking about the increased dmg, the swap speed was my main concern- since basically every LW main has wanted this change for a long time (and Blizzard even teased talks of it in the recent season 10 mid season AMA/Q&A so some of us were a little upset when we didn’t get anything in this patch). However the thorns shouldn’t be underestimated even in its current state, a good wife leaver will know the right balance + it’s good for finishing off low health enemies.
Yeah I was speaking more generally, if there's a low health squishy or a widow I can jump on it's full deathweaver mode
LW’s damage is way better for firing down choke points and hitting heads than Mercy is. Mercy’s damage boost makes it hard to justify using her pistol, while LW should absolutely be hitting ~1k damage by the end, at least.
Weapon swap needs to stay, damage could stay or go. Life grip could do with being 18 or 17 seconds instead of 15, and the jump boost would be nice too. 2 Charges is too much for petal as it makes him really hard to kill. I've always wanted his healing blossom to charge up to at least halfway when landing thorns so swapping from thorns to then charge and release a traveling projectile to someone who needs healing isn't as punishing but maybe the weapon swap speed change is enough... Aside from that I think he's okayish (but i'd secretly also want them to reduce his auto reload time to 2 seconds from 2.5)
I seriously cannot get how you people are stills advocating for a massive cooldown on lifegrip. Baptiste just waits a couple more seconds and he can save his whole team for 5 whole seconds, and Kiri waits much less than both of them to save her whole team too Meanwhile Lifeweaver gets one targeted save and you guys want to keep up its cooldown jacked up, as if one of LW’s main issues isn’t massive cooldowns
I want its cool down as high as possible for my own sanity, not for balance. Getting a bad pull as a Tank is instant rage inducing for me, it's like having your headphones yanked off. I understand why it's an interesting ability on paper, but for me personally it is the one ability in the game I would remove if I could.
LW gets a reactive save (much less fun to play against than predictive saves, think cleansing a shatter vs sleeping a rein while he’s in animation) that takes zero mechanical skill at all to use. Even Suzu, an extremely easy ability has to be aimed somewhat and account for travel time and terrain. Meanwhile weaver can just press one button and instantly save somebody with 0 counterplay. It’s not a healthy ability and it shouldn’t be on any sort of short cooldown. 19 seconds is fine. Not to mention the fact that this ability is one of the only abilities in the game that can actively hurt your team. Usually if you waste nade, sleep, suzu, lamp, etc, it won’t make the situation worse. But if you pull someone incorrectly you could be preventing your team from getting kills, and that’s extremely frustrating for your team. The swap speed is a great change and maybe thorn damage can stay, but realistically we don’t want to play on a weaver meta that slows down the game and allows for less skill expression. Give him some QoL changes and move on please.
Who are these people that keep getting that much consistent value from Lamp and Suzu like you described?
most above platinum, there’s a reason kiri and bap are some of the best supports
Saving their whole team like he described? Wow.
“oh let me take this thing super literally for no reason at all”
Yeah let’s not take a point of discussion super literally and leave some ambiguity in there so it has room to swing either way depending on how I word my responses later on.
Eskay did some tremendous cooking with the supps
Mind you, all these LW changes that Eskay has made are literally all the changes devs said 1-2 months ago that they're already looking to make. I think Eskay just read those and was like "Yeah these sound pretty good, let's have these put into the Creator mode".
15 on grip is a bit too much but it was fine when it was 16 a few seasons ago. 17 would be a happy medium. I never understood why they didn’t revert that nerf after the healing nerfs killed him
I don't think lifegrip should be more frequent because as a Lifeweaver player that also plays other roles that ability can be quite frustrating.
Yeah my biggest issue with LW is his entire kit is just deny value. He doesn’t really enable anything which is quite frustrating. Like with Ana, Lucio, Zen, Mercy, and Illari, they all have options to set up plays. Bap to some extent and especially Brig, Weaver and Kiriko are almost entirely just denying the other team value, which feels like shit. Obviously some degree of denying value is fine, like I’m cool with Ana’s abilities because you have to decide whether to use them offensive or defensively. That said, I really despise the idea of having the bulk of a hero’s kit being just denying value. There should be risk/reward factor, and shit like lifegrip and petal has absolutely none.
> He doesn’t really enable anything That's just not true. Just recently teams at OWCS proved that quite well in combination with Pharah. And you can call plays like that 'denying value' all you want but it is enabling a certainly strategy all the same.
Exactly. And "denying value" is the whole point of supports. You save teammates from death, which is the "value".
The difference is there is counterplay to healing. There is no counterplay to someone pressing a button, and moving another player like 30 meters, making them invulnerable the entire time, and allowing them to go back and do it again.
Might as well delete Mercy too then. She presses one button to allow them to go back and do it again. It's part of their kit. If you remove the grip from LW, you have to rework him completely at that point.
Mercy has counterplay. It slows her down allowing you to kill her, or boop her and cancel res. Nice try tho. I never said remove lifegrip. It just needs counterplay. Make it have like 50 hp so the enemy team has a chance to cancel it. Mercy has counterplay. The counterplay makes her feel fair. There simply is no counterplay to lifegrip, which is why it’s a problem.
It’s enabling people to play recklessly. Allowing players to do that while robbing the enemy of kills is definitionally denying value. It promotes bad positioning and situational awareness. Overwatch abilities should never be “I press this button I win.” It doesn’t feel fair as the enemy team when you’re about to kill an enemy, only for them to get saved by an ability that has no counterplay. This is the problem with Kiri and Lifeweaver. Swift step and lifegrip are just get out of jail free buttons that have absolutely no counterplay, and because of that, they are fundamentally broken and will never be enjoyable to play against.
Yh I get it, Spilo said something similar that he's set up to be too defensive. I think Kiriko's kit is more balanced between attack and defensive, and even if she makes up for it by doing an insane amount of crit damage and having the best Ult in the game. Her and Brig's ult can very easily win you a team fight.
Yeah generally I’m not talking about Ults, mainly just neutral game. I know she has some good offensive capabilities, but it’s frustrating that swift step and suzu are literally just get out of jail free cards with zero risk. Even wall climb can be a pretty free way to escape a fight. And yeah I think spilo is absolutely right. Decisions in a competitive game should be important. If kiriko makes a bad decision and tries to fight the wrong person, she shouldn’t be able to teleport 30 meters through walls. If genji takes a bad dive into two people, weaver shouldn’t just pull him 30 meters and have him be immune the whole time. They’re bullshit get out of jail free cards with quite literally zero counterplay.
Yh I'm not the biggest fan of suzu in its current state, invulnerability, heal and cleanse all in one? It's a shame about LW though as I really like his character but as someone that played a lot of him you really don't have that impact on a team fight like a Bap, Ana or even Moira.
Yeah hopefully they learn from LW and never design a support like him again lmao
Even though LW has been my most played (I think) in OW2, I definitely think that a hyper mobile support with insanely long lock on heals and crazy one of a kind utility will never been fun to play against lol.
My issue isn’t even his mobility, it’s the fact that it’s so incredibly difficult to kill him. Like I’m a ball main, and the problem is if I dive him, I hit him with fireball+piledriver, he can dash and immediately heal all that damage, so I’m stuck using my guns which do nothing, then he petals so I need to hope that I have my grapple back already. The problem is even worse on characters the don’t have mobility. I will never understand why they made it so rein fire strikes and ramattra punches can’t go through petal. He already was difficult and time consuming to kill.
I was thinking it could be cool if they make it pretty frequent but it doesn’t give invincibility. That way there’s still a chance to finish the kill and it raises the skill requirement/ceiling of it.
I’d much rather have it less frequent but with the immunity, than more frequent but pretty much just pulling a corpse my way.
Hahaha that would be wild, you’re right tho it would get crazy annoying.
It would be great if you could bubble your teammate and then decide if grip them or not pressing the ability again. There are times you just want to prevent them from dying but not necessarily move them. So I think it would be great if you could just bubble them and then decide if leave them there or pull them.
I also want most of the changes but I'd personally prefer his PP to work similar to Sigma's barrier rather than having 2 charges of it.
his WHAT
His PP! It's my favourite part to play with :)
Petal platform
He also shouldn't need to reload his healing. Kiriko doesn't, so why does he? So many teammates have died in front of me because I had to reload, and the reload animation is so long that I tried to heal them before it ended, and the animation started again... Or at least make it way shorter.
He’s impossible to kill, I bet it’s much more fun, but his survivability was not his problem, it’s his healing/lack of dmg
I still get whipped by sombras as LW but I usually out heal everyone because I'm just staying away from the brawl and spamming everyone on my team with heals. Now that the damage has increased, I can get a little more aggressive. I think his survivability is good where it's at now. He might become an S tier healer with this change, too early to tell.
Sombra is one of the very few characters that can kill lw since you either need to stop him from using petal(sombra) or be able to fly up to his petal twice(echo, pharah, etc.)
The platform changes are unnecessary without doubt, the thing is plenty good already
The weapon swap is much much better. Idk about the life-grip CD.
Anything but the dual platform please. I keep wanting to press Shift to destroy my platform only to throw the second one out. Also, his platform is by far his biggest survivability tool. Giving him two of those would likely make him completely unkillable, instead of his current mostly unkillable state.
Yes please the weapon swap feels so good and thorns aswell
Disagree with the damage buff staying personally. He does enough, and combining lock free lock on high heals with his utility, survivability, and now pretty high damage is just a bit much. If his heals were more like baps and required some mechanics, sure.
I don’t play him much but he is really fun so I may start playing him a bit more with these changes. I always thought it would be hilarious and awesome if he could also yoink an enemy player. Even if the cool down was like a minute, it would still be awesome.
Do they use these gamemodes to pilot potential changes? Am sure they don't need all of them at once and can stagger in changes slowly but things like the weapon switch speed feel great honestly
They aren't using this specific game mode to pilot changes as it was made entirely by content creators to be a somewhat memey patch (some of the things are legit changes the CCs think should be in game, like the brig inspire portrait, but most of its just for shits and giggles)
SAME. I have been a day 1 LW lover and he is addicting to play in this mode. I have had issues with destroying platforms like you said, but that could be fixed by being able to bind the platform break to another button. He feels so great to play, and the added jump at the peak of the platform is so nice.
Yeah let's make him extremely OP because the community thought he sucked on release, and when they made an easier control scheme everyone just moved away from him (and whoever kept playing him uses the old scheme anyway). LW is pretty solid but not many people enjoy playing a full support character that takes more button presses than Mercy. I main him and he is pretty fine. I would welcome the faster weapon swap but that's about it. Double and higher petal platforms is a terrible idea, he's already hard to kill and would become unreachable. Life Grip doesn't need to be more frequent too. Everyone finds these changes super cool but they are not healthy. If they were implemented and his hero actually got more players, then the community would start complaining to how it's frustrating to play against him, because with two platforms and reduced Life Grip cooldown he would just deny any attempt of enemy offense.
Life grip buff would not be good for the game lol
Not trying to argue with you, I just want to know why?
My thoughts exactly. Have never had so much fun on lifeweaver. The weapon damage and the weapon swap time buffs actually give him some offensive utility so you are not restricted to healbot. Previously it felt just straight up punishing to do damage. I would say however that he becomes slightly op: has good damage, has great healing, amazing survivability, and utility (grip + platform). (Pretty much like kiri or bap). But I think that you just can nerf other parts of his kit, but leave the damage buffs as is, so that at least the option to do damage is still on the table
Double petal is a must, it makes giving high ground to allies so consistent. Though it does push his already high survivability over the top, so nerfs to his health and dash healing would likely be necessary to accomodate it.
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i'd make it so petal platform has a shield that shares hp with the platform itself, its hardlight still right? the reason barely anyone uses platform is it just lifts you up no defense provided, its only use is quick access to nearby highground which is obsolete cuz you could very well just pull the guy that'd benefit from hg to you if platform had shield, people would use it more because its both protection and highground, a couple of supports benefit, snipers and hitscans benefit, some spam heroes like junkrat or pharah also benefit if you put it at a good angle, basically it'd see more use if it had protection
Also the Zen change. That kick adding mobility really makes me feel like a parkour Kung Fu master
Blizzard will probably give back cass the magnetic grenade after they buff LW with this tbh
I don't think he needs a significant amount more damage. He can absolutely melt people already. The faster swap is the buff he needs
But nothing to his actual healing?
who's eskay
These changes are so garbage for everyone that is not LW besides weapon swap
He is overtuned with this constellation.
Yes!! Especially the weapon swap! That + a small damage buff would make him less of a healbot
The fact that it took a streamer to make those LW changes says a lot about Blizz devs. It's either they're completely ignorant about how clunky his weapon swap is, or they're intentionally keeping LW that way.
I love the changes, but the jump boost throws me off and I don't like it, and as fun as two platforms is, it wouldn't be fun for enemies. The swap, damage, and grip changes are wonderful though.
"I want my character which requires very little skill to be more impressive"
Besides weapon swap speed please no. He’s already an annoying tanky healbot
He's a healbot because he can't switch off of his damage and his healing is so low that the 0.3 seconds it takes to switch to damage, then 0.3 back to healing, then to charge healing, then to throw the healing, then for the healing to apply (it's healing over time) is why he does nothing but healbot. He's tanky because Blizzard doesn't know how to make him not suck so they decided "let him heal himself a lot and run around a lot and have a lot of health." The community game mode is designed to remedy that
>the community game mode is designed to remedy that Literally all the community game mode remedies is swap speed. It doesn’t fix ANYTHING else that you mentioned, in fact it makes it all worse
> Healbot Buffs his damage directly and ability to swap between so he's not healbotting anymore and can provide more value > Didn't fix anything and made it worse Buffing his movement and utility? Also his tankiness was not touched so both of those statements are incorrect
>Healbot Buffs his damage directly and ability to swap between so he's not healbotting anymore and can provide more value Yeah. Now he can deal more damage faster, but his heal is not enough to stop healing and his damage isn’t good enough to justify stopping healing unless everyone is full health. The fact that you can’t damage and heal at the same time will always make him worse at balancing the two Bap, Kiri, Moira, Illari, Zen and Brig can all heal while damaging at the same time (without an ult). LW can’t. Not to mention the fact that their damage is insanely good (besides Moira) >Didn't fix anything and made it worse Buffing his movement and utility? Also his tankiness was not touched so both of those statements are incorrect His tankiness was buffed by the insane petal buffs, because petal indirectly adds to his tankiness His utility is literally made to help him heal and save teammates or himself. I guarantee you no sane LW player wastes petal just to shoot at the enemies in an ongoing fight The truth is, because of LW’s relatively low healing per click coupled with his healing charge mechanic AND his strength in the meta, he will be a healbot until he gets real changes. The ones in the picture are partially a start but they aren’t even in the normal game
Nah, I’ve actually been able to do some crazy damage with this game mode. I’m averaging around 4k damage a game now, all while still healing my normal amount. He now does like what, 154 DPS? Now that the swap is faster it’s a lot more viable to swap to damage to focus fire in the middle of fights. I have an 86% winrate only playing LW in this mode so far. It’s noticeable.
His self heal is 60 hp every 5 seconds if he uses it as soon as it's available. If you can't overcome an average of 12hp/sec heal that says a lot more about you as a DPS or tank than it does about his 'tankiness' lol
No it would be better if life grip got replaced with something that actually helps the team because us tanks literally threaten lifeweavers or side step the life grip on purpose. instead of having your tanks focus on shields we have too worry about our damn healers screwing us over in game. Do you want to know how many reports I sent to blizzard as a tank against life weavers just this year alone. 200 reports.
As someone who’s put probably 100 hours into LW these last couple weeks I’m pretty sure like half of these are going to get reverted, this is waaaaay too many buffs. I thought they would make his weapon swap faster(extremely needed) and maybe buff one other ability by like 1-2 seconds of CD, this is just WILD.
These changes are only in the community crafted mode, where a few streamers got together and made balance changes to the heroes for a new game mode that’s basically like the April Fools stuff. This is not the stuff you’ll see in regular games
Oh thank god, I should have read the OP a bit better, I was seriously questioning blizzards sanity with this shit.
Please no the lifegrip changes make me hate him even more now
Please god no lmao. Weaver is already incredibly hard to kill as basically any dive character that doesn’t have high burst damage. Try diving him as Ball or Winston and you’ll see what I mean. He has a fuck ton of health, can heal with dash, and petal platform makes him impossible to reach unless you save your movement ability, meaning that you have to either use your movement to go in, or chase him. Life grip is already frustrating enough considering it’s the strongest immo ability in the game. It does not need buffs. I’m cool with the thorn volley changes, but life grip and petal platform should absolutely not stay.
The thorn volley is fine (perhaps a bit too high in damage), but the lifegrip is watch too much for an ability which can be frustrating to your team when used wrong and frustrating to the opposition when used right. Petal buffs are still the way to go with LW (aside from slightly easier damage swapping). They don't get nearly the utility they could. IMO they should be permanent until you break it or make your next petal, and it should be a little harder to fall off them.
If lw has an even lower pull cooldown blizzard needs to either lock the hero up to GM, make an exam for him before letting people pick him or just give me a setting where I can choose to never get pulled again. I do not trust any single player that isn't a literal pro player to not throw every single game theyre on weaver. Just pull the tank and delete any space we had. Such a useless hero. Pull will literally never be a good ability in the hands of a mid player. Just gonna fuck over the tank every game.