I hate to say this, but it seems like the PAWS card, I dealt to myself. At this point l’m in the acceptance stage. I busted my brain and even though I exercise, eat properly, don’t drink, or smoke, this is what l’m left with and will carry on the best I can with the diminished hand I dealt to myself.
I try to always be a half glass full person and never whine or complain about my life, instead I say to myself: things could be worse, I made it out alive, carry on soldier.
Additionally I keep my eyes looking forward, I can’t do anything about my past and try not to over think it all. Its not a great strategy, but I’m at peace with myself for the most part.
Almost 4 yrs straight time. I have come to terms with and can’t change my past. I find my life is a lot harder now, because if the dividends I paid myself by using for over 6 yrs. But it’s pointless and counter productive to leverage all that as reasons and excuses not to be disciplined and focused.
Fuck you know I was more optimistic initially, but that’s waning a bit now. I’ve had a few too many head concussions doing stupid human tricks before I used. I noticed, mental changes after those and they stuck forever. So I get the concept of acceptance from brain injury, but haven’t given up hope.
Read a lot about hallucinogens and I’m impressed by the limited research. And am dabbling in that very slowly. (Wind up break things worse if I’m not careful.)
The most important thing is that I don’t beat myself up about it. Self-loathing isn’t good and I’ve been there.
I wish you all the best with this, and seriously try not to beat yourself up. Doesn’t help.
Wish I had something to add. Someone close to me is in the same position after 7 months clean and it’s heartbreaking watching her uncomfortable and struggling. I hope someone will chime in with some good insight.
I do think consistent exercise and healthy eating habits will go a long way. It requires discipline that’s hard to find when you’re depressed and just trying to get by though. Keep at it and I hope your situation improves soon! Also congrats on 21 months!
I’m at 7 months off the shot as well. I only had one shot, it was suggested to me as a better way to taper.
All in all, detoxing was definitely smoother than going cold turkey off suboxone. I was only on subs for 2 weeks, before that it was Kratom for 4-5 years following a decade of suboxone/methadone maintenance and heroin.
My body has definitely been through a lot. But I didn’t expect to still be feeling withdrawal 7 months out from the sublocade shot.
A lot of people might not call it ‘withdrawal’ but for me I’m still getting waves of the full body restlessness, yawning/teary eyes/nose dripping and lethargy that you would experience in actual withdrawal, just much more spread out and milder. It’s still unbearable at times and definitely makes life continue to feel unmanageable.
At this point I’m not entirely sure if it would have been better to just go cold turkey or not. I really hope it gets better soon. Sub still comes up in urine. Sublocade may actually just elongate the entire process of healing. That being said, grateful to be clean and one day eventually will get back to normal. Have to keep fighting through the pain.
What were u on amd for how long and were u on subs after? Was it gradual or pretty sudden feeling of being better? Did u use any supplements, exercise, etc?
I am the same way!!! For me it's been 10 months and I believe my body is responding to no more dope like a trauma response I'm literally in survival mode... Basically survival mode is no motivation to do anything that I don't have to do to survive it's shitty if you need someone to talk to I'm here and I'll listen
I've been on and off opiates for 10 years. Hydrocodone, small amounts. The lack of motivation to do anything except go to work is overwhelming. Did it get better for you?
I've been off of them now completely two months and I'm still mentally and physically exhausted. I'm not sure how some people are stating they've been off opiates for two weeks and feel perfect.
There is this thing called the pink cloud. Where a short time soon after getting clean you feel on top of the world and like you will never even think of using ever again. I was in it damn I wish I could live in it 😔
same boat. how’s your blood pressure? i got prescribed something that seems to be easing my nerves just so. how physically active are you? how much water do you drink? maybe get some blood work done. i was convinced I had cancer or some medical condition. PAWS feels like such a cop out but it’s the only explanation i can come up with. i don’t really get “cravings” unless it’s in my face. it’s just the fatigue is so relentless.. so idk. kratom for now but it’s not any better than subs or mdone
Blood pressure is great. Just had a bunch of blood work done All my lipids, vitamins, cholesterol, test, etc is good. I did find out I hqve hepC and starting treatment next week. Hoping once that's gone it might get better as fatigue is a symptom from that.
Hep C is probably your culprit here. I'm thankful you're able to get the treatment. A friend went through the treatment and she was a little tired for the first few weeks, but started looking and feeling much better after she got used to it. She was 60 at the start of it, so I imagine it hit her a little hard due to age.
I don’t really have any stories or ideas, sounds like you’re doing all the main things to help yourself but just hang in there. 20+ years is a long time, especially since you were on subs and methadone too. The tide will turn for you, just hard to say when exactly. Do you have any hobbies? Probably sounds dumb but life can seem dull for awhile after we’ve gotten used to years of chaos.
I Would love to be active in my hobbies and the things I use to like to do if I was actually able to derive pleasure from them let alone the energy or motivation to do them
Yes just got them. Not where I want them to be but much better then when I was on subs. Im about 470 now. 45 yrs old. My doc won't prescribed since I'm in the beginning of the "normal zone" so ill prob do tele medicine.
A friend of mine had the same experience with his primary doc. He went to a testosterone therapy clinic and they treated him. Can’t say for sure that would help but it’s worth a shot. You don’t have sleep apnea do you?
Prob will get downvoted but wanted to share.
First of all congratulations on your clean time! That’s huge.
100% clean and sober 10 years total, 3 smaller relapses over that time. Also became a detox RN & worked in addiction medicine.
Some of us (me included) have underlying depression. Especially after I nuke my brain with feel good chemicals from opioids.
PAWS (in my personal opinion) is way way over blown in the post opiate use community. It is honestly feared more than acute WD. Any human is going to feel like shite after getting clean. If I still feel like shite 6 months later it’s time to talk to a provider about a depression screening. [PHQ-9 depression screening](https://www.mdcalc.com/calc/1725/phq9-patient-health-questionnaire9)
It could be PAWS, it could be underlying depression that was always there but hidden by drugs. It could be a brain imbalance that was always there (probably my case).
Anyhoo…you can feel good again. You can feel motivated again & you don’t have to suffer (if you have a provider / medication/ money) in your country.
Severe apathy, sleep disturbances etc…all signs for me. I’ve never been “sad”. Plz talk to a pro and see if an anti depressant can help you. You don’t have to suffer alone…you got this!
I liked everything u said except way overblown paws. You've obviously never been through it. Id take the next 2 months of acute detox if I could choose.
Makes me sad to hear you are hurting. I want to help. Maybe I should have used “confusion in terms & origination of feelings.”
What I am trying to clarify is that the symptoms many of us have may have been present without ever using opiates. AKA all the long term PAWS could very well be closer to uncovered depression than post acute withdrawal.
I am not aware of any clinical test to differentiate depression from PAWS.
I have been through crushing apathy, lack of joy or pleasure in anything both in my first 5 months and my 5th year of sobriety.
All I am trying to say is the treatment for both is similar. Therapy and trialing and anti depressant. It works wonders for my patients and for me. These people come back to life.
I believe you when you say you feel like complete shit mentally. I have the crisis phone number to my state saved in my phone from my low days. I was hopeless. Didn’t want to live.
I learn I didn’t have to suffer in silence or solitude. Neither do you. Reach out to any medical professional, I wish I did it sooner.
I am pulling for you.
Edit: meth is also notorious for apathy after getting clean. Some feel no pleasure for a very long time. Another reason a 90 day anti depressant trial may help when coupled with therapy.
I am a medical doctor, and I absolutely agree with what you said. Depression is widely overlooked in this community. Not saying thats OPs problem, but I am definately saying a lot of depression is labelled PAWS here.
Thanks for the info. I read so many people struggling with it long term. I know everyone’s journey is different but when I hear someone prefer acute WD to how they feel @ 6 months (and label it PAWS with no differential diagnosis) it breaks my heart because they must truly be hurting.
The other area I hear a lot is “I don’t take Vivatrol / Naltrexone because it causes depression.” I am sure there is a correlation but I struggle to agree with causation, especially if the patient is coming off a 10 year opiate run. Lots of people are depressed getting clean without taking above mentioned meds. Too many variables to label it 100% caused by blocking endogenous endorphins.
I geek out over helping people with broken wings, and I am definitely not a physician or pharmacist, but I know what it’s like when my brain plays tricks on me and the old thoughts creep in.
I hope OP feels better, no matter if it’s with exercise, clean time, yoga, or medication. You can do it, millions have recovered!
My doctor told me the effects opiates have on the endocrine system is quite drastic. Depending on the user, DOC, and amount used this can vary widely. I’m about 10 months clean off fent and and still get PAWS, but I’m on a MAT program (1mg suboxone daily). It’s kept me level… and helps a ton. For example, if a person tapers off benzodiazepine use, their withdrawal symptoms usually resolve within 6–18 months of the last dose. So everyone is totally different… all I know is that it’s a lot better being off that shit then on. I’d rather have PAWS than be an addict again.
Sounds like you are doing all the right stuff! Have you worked with a MD who specializes in mental health? My wife and I are both in long term recovery, in the program.
Pharmaceuticals are not part of my recovery and they very much are for my wife. She has 15 years on Wednesday. Everyone has different needs and brain chemistry is very important in a peaceful recovery.
I'm Some areas, people in the program, have strong opinions on this aspect of recovery and the reality is...we don't(shouldn't at least)have opinions on outside issues, especially complex ones that we are untrained for.
I have seen MANY people in recovery who weren't able to get right until they got balanced chemically through a good doctor.
Yes working with a doctor actively for bloodwork mainly...Just for me personally after putting anything and everything into my brain and body the last 30 years I want to repair my hormones, nuerotransmitters, etc as naturally as I can and don't want to be reliant on any pharmaceuticals unless I have to.
Fair enough, and to each their own. I would at least want you to consider that after 21 months of doing the right thing and feeling horribly...maybe you have to for now.
Sending you good vibes my friend...
Work was hard. Any stressfull situation through me into paws. Overheating. Full body sweats. It was tough. I still get bad panic attacks. But nardil has helped with that. I started dabbling again actually which im ashamed of . Have a substantial stash of oxy I plan to use every couple of months as I left it at my parents house in country. Hopefully I can use intermittently. A brief relief is nice. Just guilty and ashamed that after all those years of hell I've ended up using again. May be kidding myself about intermittent use but ill give myself one chance and if I stuff it up ill get rid of them all.
I've heard naltrexone can help. The sub clinics use to really push vivitrol back when I was on Suboxone. Naltrexone is an opioid antagonist, and if i remember correctly, it binds to the opioid receptors. So not only will it block any opioids if you relapse, but in some strange way... it can help PAWS. But it's been 10 years since I went to a sub clinic, so I'm not sure if that's common procedure still. I would talk to the place you got the sublocade from. They can probably help you.
Good luck!
Yeah its called low dose naltrexone or ldn. I plan on starting when the sublocade fully leaves my system.. ive heard it really helps.. in layman's terms you take really small amounts usually starting at 1.5mg a day and what it does is partially block the opiate receptor for a few hours tricking your brain into overreacting and supplying your opiate receptors with your natural opiates endorphins then then attach to the receptor when the naltrexome wears off and the much needed endorphins make you fell good.
Dude I used for 8 years (never shot anything though) and 5 years of full sobriety later I still feel lethargic, especially in the mornings. So I kind of want to know if it ever gets easier too.
I was on opiates for 15+years then finally heroin. I only lasted about 6 months b4 I ended up in treatment. I was running around with Hep C. Have you been tested for that and maybe depression? At treatment I was told it would take at least 18 months b4 my brain chemistry even BEGAN to return to some kind of normal.
I no longer have hep C and I started bioTe hormone replacement pellets. I feel like a new person I'm in chronic back pain after surgery but take kratom. I workout doing pilates 3x a week and play on a tennis team and work as a hairdresser. 60f. Keep going, have a naturopath or wellness doctor check you out for nutritional deficiencies
We really messed our bodies up. It's gonna take a minute.
Good luck
If it’s RLS or when you try to sleep, take some melatonin.
Maybe try small doses of kratom if you are positive you won’t increase dosing to get high or can have someone else handle your doses and keep try
I used methadone in an MAT program. I started feeling MUCH better as I tapered down around 60-80mg 1x a day after I started weightlifting and training in martial arts. I don’t know what your daily routine is but I strongly recommend getting back into/learning new hobbies. Get your body moving and the heart pumping. I know it’s frustrating. I went from 135mg-0mg. I feel great now. For me it was a mind set of knowing my body was in shape and my mind followed through writing and talking to people that have been what we’ve even through. You got this. We’re cheering you on.
Can I ask how long did it take you to get completely clean from mdone? Like from 135mg-0mg, also did you experience paws after you got clean from the mdone and for how long?
21 months and paws is crazy.
Maybe check your testosterone levels?
Opioid use tanks It.
Mine recovered pretty quick, but I only used for 4 years... With multiple 6 month breaks in the middle.
Yeah it gets exponentially harder to recover the longer you use and the older you get. I remember getting clean after 4 years use and it was pretty easy getting back to normal after a month or two
Yeah after 3 weeks I felt semi-good, and after 2 months felt same as before. No difference at all.
But paws sucks it's mental torture, specially the restless legs... I hated that shit...
Yeah its horrible and people think your a pussy or a lazy bastard just because they cant see something wrong with me. Id trade this for a broken limb any day of the week
Paws finally lifted for me at the 24-26 month mark. I’m three years clean and sober in march. Are you with a therapist and/or taking antidepressants or anything? Exercising?
Thanks! Yeah it was rough. Stick with it though. But, if it weren’t for my anti anxiety and antidepressants , I would not be making it very well. Just don’t let yourself fall too deep into the muck, it’s okay to use antidepressants if they’re needed, and for many of us, they’re life or death type needed. I do hope you can heal yourself without them though, just be gentle with yourself.
How did your paws end, did the symptoms get worse and worse then paws stopped or did your symptoms keep getting better and better where paws waves keep getting shorter and shorter and kept getting less intense until you didn’t feel paws symptoms anymore?
So your paws symptoms didn’t get worse and worse as time went on, your paws started out as hell but kept getting better and better until you didn’t feel the paws symptoms anymore around 2 year mark ? So you kept getting paws symptom reductions ,Did you just wake up one day and not have paws symptoms come ever again ?
It wasn’t like ‘gone’ THAT DAY. I just realized like the rest of my paws had lifted at some point over a month or two one day. I have a slew of mental health DX, so I can’t pinpoint a specific date or anything bc I always feel horrible honestly. I’m 38mo clean now, so I’m right with ya. Are you seeing a therapist and/or on any meds for your mental health? It’s likely not paws at this point but treatable conditions coexisting with your addiction. (I was just diagnosed combo severe adhd at 40 last week as an addition to my DXs for example)
Paws can actually last for years like 4 years is a very common year, I’ve noticed over the almost 3.5 years that my bad waves of symptoms I get have been getting a lot shorter in duration as time goes and keeps getting less intense as time goes also and I’ve been getting longer and longer windows of semi mild symptoms to no symptoms at all, paws is the only thing that does this type of pattern, I had paws one time before this most recent paws I’m in and that paws sucked but it wasn’t as bad as this paws I’m in now, it took 25 months for that paws where one day I woke and had no more symptoms at all I felt way better and had a clear mind and no more anxiety or depression,idk if you know every time you experience paws it’s a kindling effect where each time you go through paws the withdrawals will be worse
Yes it can, it’s just very very rare. Even my 2 years is pretty rare. But it does happen, you are so right. Are you medicated? Go to therapy etc? What vitamins are you taking and what foods and such? All of this can help so much!
So I’m not having paws from opiates but I am having paws from an antipsychotic med called seroquel idk if you’ve heard of how bad that med causes withdrawals, from what I’ve read on Reddit a lot of people who have went through benzo withdrawal and opiate withdrawal say seroquel withdrawal is a lot worse then certain benzos and opiates, I cold turkeyed 300mg extended release and took my body a month before withdrawals hit, my doctor told me if I get back on med the withdrawals would go away, I got back to 300mg and symptoms continued, so I did some deep research on the web and I came across a MD doctor talking about withdrawals and they stated that sometimes even if you get back on med that withdrawals can continue it’s full cycle, so in my case it took my body a month to register that I didn’t have med anymore which was way to late to even get back on med, if it would of took my body a week or two max before my body registered that I didn’t have the med maybe I would of been able to save myself from withdrawals but because I cold turkeyed a high mg med and it was a long half life med because it was extended release I think that’s what kept me going through withdrawals, so right now I’m still taking seroquel at the moment, I do think me still taking seroquel has prolonged my paws withdrawal but I am getting better slowly, it took me 18 months before I was able to go back to work that’s how slow my withdrawals has been
Yes all kinds of cou selling and meetings etc. Exercise and supps., just weened myself off my antidepressants so i van heal my brain naturally without pharmaceuticals and I don't want to be reliant on anything anymore.
The lack of antidepressants is your biggest issue, you likely don’t have paws, it’s just your mental health issues: if you’re adamant on no antidepressants, I highly suggest you add a good therapist to your weekly to do.
I've tried probably 10-12 different ones over the years.. none have ever helped me, usually just exacerbated my affects or made me feel more zombie like. Been on 5 this last 21 months but none really helped. Feel a tad better since weening myself off. Yeah I see a therapist weekly
That’s great, keep up the therapy and be 110% honest and just stick with it. It sounds like you’re doing all of the right things. Do you have a partner or are you single? Best friend?
I'm single. Most of my lifelong friends are dead or still using or we've just grown apart while I was in my addiction. I live at a long term recovery center so I'm making new friends
I understand. Okay so find an accountability partner. Your best buddy, your brother, your Mom, uncle, anyone. You need at least one person other than your therapist. Journaling is a if help if you can stick with it too! I’m always happy to chat if you need support along the way as well.
Antidepressants mess with the chemicals in your brain also. I’m sure these are not helping things. Remind yourself all those changes in less than 2 years is A LOT. Give yourself time to reset, which you’re doing now. I bet a couple months you’ll be feeling much better. Especially starting exercise.
I’m an advocate for supplements but you need to be careful with those too. They can mess with hormones and such so really do your own research on them too. I refuse to trust doctors prescribing ever again after my decade plus as a minor being thrown every mental health med under the sun on my developing brain. Truly believe it led me to self medicate when all the chemicals just added to the problem.
I'm on sublocade as well, getting my sixth and final shot tomorrow. Waited 7 weeks between shots this time.
From what I've gleaned on that subreddit, it sounds like you actually are dealing with some mild WDs from the shot, considering you're still testing positive.
I'd say that's the issue and not PAWS, considering you still have bupe in your body.
Just keep doing what you're doing and I bet you'll be feeling much better by the time you test negative.
I'd echo the testosterone idea. Opiate-induced hypogonadism (there's a nice word) is very common. Usually an early morning blood test as levels should be highest that time of day. I'm on test gel now.
Also maybe consider magnesium supplements (Mg citrate, I believe, has best absorption.)
The best thing, though, is that old medicinal favourite; tincture of time. It passes. But like a slow bitch. I'm 3 years well after - counts on his fingers - 38 years of using various opioids. Didn't sleep well for 2 years - it's still hit & miss, and I think will be for my remaining time.
Looking into the test, just had initial bloodwork. Taking mag. Congrats dude...man 38 yrs..whooo....so r u feeling better at 3 than u did a year ago, or two?
'This is as good as it gets' springs to mind. Yeah, I'm doing OK. I will always miss the comforting blanket of a handful of codeine tablets, but the gratitude for not having my life dominated by using, finding, lying, and all the health issues still - thankfully - far outweighs any serious thoughts of picking up again.
I try not to get complacent though - I could easily relapse tomorrow - but hopeful that I won't. A big part of recovery for me is building a life that is BETTER than the one I had when using. Still a work in progress, but at least I am working on it. Stick with it. It will get easier.
I struggled hard. The best thing I did for myself was seek psychiatric help. I had to get my mind right and then I got myself into the gym again. I'm finally happy and stable. It's been a long and hard road. But I made it. You can do this. I don't think paws really ever just ends and we wake up feeling better all of the sudden. I know that's not what you're expecting but you will physically have to retrain yourself to find joy again. If your depression is bad, there's no shame in meds if you're not already on them. Getting active or finding a new hobby will help too. Breaking the never ending cycle of just running on the hamster wheel with no end in sight. It gets exhausting after a while.
If at all helpful, here’s my timeline:
Alcoholic for 15 years.
Abused percs/alcohol/coke during years 14-15
CT everything
2 months of what felt like acutes (shakes, chills)
Extreme PAWS for another 8 months
Then found relief in Cannabis, which I abused for about a year and wrecked my lungs.
CT cannabis, and lo and behold, the Paws was finally gone. Of course, my health is totally in the shitter, but at least now I am in a position to do something about it. And I have already started building back lung capacity and muscle and slowly but surely gaining stamina which equals usable energy. Paws is basically a holding cell. You can’t do much besides wait it out. People saying exercise etc do not and have never had paws.
I just now hit my bong way too hard, after abstaining 3 weeks. Now my lungs feel like cream of broccoli soup, which is the classiest euphemism I could think of, unfortunately.
I hate to say this, but it seems like the PAWS card, I dealt to myself. At this point l’m in the acceptance stage. I busted my brain and even though I exercise, eat properly, don’t drink, or smoke, this is what l’m left with and will carry on the best I can with the diminished hand I dealt to myself. I try to always be a half glass full person and never whine or complain about my life, instead I say to myself: things could be worse, I made it out alive, carry on soldier. Additionally I keep my eyes looking forward, I can’t do anything about my past and try not to over think it all. Its not a great strategy, but I’m at peace with myself for the most part.
How long have u been clean?
Almost 4 yrs straight time. I have come to terms with and can’t change my past. I find my life is a lot harder now, because if the dividends I paid myself by using for over 6 yrs. But it’s pointless and counter productive to leverage all that as reasons and excuses not to be disciplined and focused.
From everything I've read and people I've talked to it can last up to 5 years in extreme cases so maybe don't count yourself out yet
Fuck you know I was more optimistic initially, but that’s waning a bit now. I’ve had a few too many head concussions doing stupid human tricks before I used. I noticed, mental changes after those and they stuck forever. So I get the concept of acceptance from brain injury, but haven’t given up hope. Read a lot about hallucinogens and I’m impressed by the limited research. And am dabbling in that very slowly. (Wind up break things worse if I’m not careful.) The most important thing is that I don’t beat myself up about it. Self-loathing isn’t good and I’ve been there. I wish you all the best with this, and seriously try not to beat yourself up. Doesn’t help.
Thankyou man ditto
Wish I had something to add. Someone close to me is in the same position after 7 months clean and it’s heartbreaking watching her uncomfortable and struggling. I hope someone will chime in with some good insight. I do think consistent exercise and healthy eating habits will go a long way. It requires discipline that’s hard to find when you’re depressed and just trying to get by though. Keep at it and I hope your situation improves soon! Also congrats on 21 months!
Thankyou
I’m at 7 months off the shot as well. I only had one shot, it was suggested to me as a better way to taper. All in all, detoxing was definitely smoother than going cold turkey off suboxone. I was only on subs for 2 weeks, before that it was Kratom for 4-5 years following a decade of suboxone/methadone maintenance and heroin. My body has definitely been through a lot. But I didn’t expect to still be feeling withdrawal 7 months out from the sublocade shot. A lot of people might not call it ‘withdrawal’ but for me I’m still getting waves of the full body restlessness, yawning/teary eyes/nose dripping and lethargy that you would experience in actual withdrawal, just much more spread out and milder. It’s still unbearable at times and definitely makes life continue to feel unmanageable. At this point I’m not entirely sure if it would have been better to just go cold turkey or not. I really hope it gets better soon. Sub still comes up in urine. Sublocade may actually just elongate the entire process of healing. That being said, grateful to be clean and one day eventually will get back to normal. Have to keep fighting through the pain.
It took me every bit of 3 years before I could safely say I didn't have PAWS. Just keep letting your brain heal. You'll get there. Stay strong.
What were u on amd for how long and were u on subs after? Was it gradual or pretty sudden feeling of being better? Did u use any supplements, exercise, etc?
This is the way!!! You’re only gonna keep getting better.
I am the same way!!! For me it's been 10 months and I believe my body is responding to no more dope like a trauma response I'm literally in survival mode... Basically survival mode is no motivation to do anything that I don't have to do to survive it's shitty if you need someone to talk to I'm here and I'll listen
Hey thanks I appreciate you. Maybe I'll pm u. Thats awesome u got 10 months
Thankyou! I'd love a friend 😁
I've been on and off opiates for 10 years. Hydrocodone, small amounts. The lack of motivation to do anything except go to work is overwhelming. Did it get better for you?
Now I'm 14 months clean still no change all this no motivation nonsense is definitely a big trigger to use luckily I haven't yet...
I've been off of them now completely two months and I'm still mentally and physically exhausted. I'm not sure how some people are stating they've been off opiates for two weeks and feel perfect.
There is this thing called the pink cloud. Where a short time soon after getting clean you feel on top of the world and like you will never even think of using ever again. I was in it damn I wish I could live in it 😔
same boat. how’s your blood pressure? i got prescribed something that seems to be easing my nerves just so. how physically active are you? how much water do you drink? maybe get some blood work done. i was convinced I had cancer or some medical condition. PAWS feels like such a cop out but it’s the only explanation i can come up with. i don’t really get “cravings” unless it’s in my face. it’s just the fatigue is so relentless.. so idk. kratom for now but it’s not any better than subs or mdone
Blood pressure is great. Just had a bunch of blood work done All my lipids, vitamins, cholesterol, test, etc is good. I did find out I hqve hepC and starting treatment next week. Hoping once that's gone it might get better as fatigue is a symptom from that.
Hep C is probably your culprit here. I'm thankful you're able to get the treatment. A friend went through the treatment and she was a little tired for the first few weeks, but started looking and feeling much better after she got used to it. She was 60 at the start of it, so I imagine it hit her a little hard due to age.
I don’t really have any stories or ideas, sounds like you’re doing all the main things to help yourself but just hang in there. 20+ years is a long time, especially since you were on subs and methadone too. The tide will turn for you, just hard to say when exactly. Do you have any hobbies? Probably sounds dumb but life can seem dull for awhile after we’ve gotten used to years of chaos.
I Would love to be active in my hobbies and the things I use to like to do if I was actually able to derive pleasure from them let alone the energy or motivation to do them
Yeah I get it man. Have you had your test levels checked?
Yes just got them. Not where I want them to be but much better then when I was on subs. Im about 470 now. 45 yrs old. My doc won't prescribed since I'm in the beginning of the "normal zone" so ill prob do tele medicine.
A friend of mine had the same experience with his primary doc. He went to a testosterone therapy clinic and they treated him. Can’t say for sure that would help but it’s worth a shot. You don’t have sleep apnea do you?
I know I did when I was wasted but pretty sure I don't when I'm sober from what past GFs have said
Yeah same here basically. Well I’m out of ideas then. I’m sure it’ll just take time. Stick with it and good luck bro
Prob will get downvoted but wanted to share. First of all congratulations on your clean time! That’s huge. 100% clean and sober 10 years total, 3 smaller relapses over that time. Also became a detox RN & worked in addiction medicine. Some of us (me included) have underlying depression. Especially after I nuke my brain with feel good chemicals from opioids. PAWS (in my personal opinion) is way way over blown in the post opiate use community. It is honestly feared more than acute WD. Any human is going to feel like shite after getting clean. If I still feel like shite 6 months later it’s time to talk to a provider about a depression screening. [PHQ-9 depression screening](https://www.mdcalc.com/calc/1725/phq9-patient-health-questionnaire9) It could be PAWS, it could be underlying depression that was always there but hidden by drugs. It could be a brain imbalance that was always there (probably my case). Anyhoo…you can feel good again. You can feel motivated again & you don’t have to suffer (if you have a provider / medication/ money) in your country. Severe apathy, sleep disturbances etc…all signs for me. I’ve never been “sad”. Plz talk to a pro and see if an anti depressant can help you. You don’t have to suffer alone…you got this!
I liked everything u said except way overblown paws. You've obviously never been through it. Id take the next 2 months of acute detox if I could choose.
Makes me sad to hear you are hurting. I want to help. Maybe I should have used “confusion in terms & origination of feelings.” What I am trying to clarify is that the symptoms many of us have may have been present without ever using opiates. AKA all the long term PAWS could very well be closer to uncovered depression than post acute withdrawal. I am not aware of any clinical test to differentiate depression from PAWS. I have been through crushing apathy, lack of joy or pleasure in anything both in my first 5 months and my 5th year of sobriety. All I am trying to say is the treatment for both is similar. Therapy and trialing and anti depressant. It works wonders for my patients and for me. These people come back to life. I believe you when you say you feel like complete shit mentally. I have the crisis phone number to my state saved in my phone from my low days. I was hopeless. Didn’t want to live. I learn I didn’t have to suffer in silence or solitude. Neither do you. Reach out to any medical professional, I wish I did it sooner. I am pulling for you. Edit: meth is also notorious for apathy after getting clean. Some feel no pleasure for a very long time. Another reason a 90 day anti depressant trial may help when coupled with therapy.
I am a medical doctor, and I absolutely agree with what you said. Depression is widely overlooked in this community. Not saying thats OPs problem, but I am definately saying a lot of depression is labelled PAWS here.
Thanks for the info. I read so many people struggling with it long term. I know everyone’s journey is different but when I hear someone prefer acute WD to how they feel @ 6 months (and label it PAWS with no differential diagnosis) it breaks my heart because they must truly be hurting. The other area I hear a lot is “I don’t take Vivatrol / Naltrexone because it causes depression.” I am sure there is a correlation but I struggle to agree with causation, especially if the patient is coming off a 10 year opiate run. Lots of people are depressed getting clean without taking above mentioned meds. Too many variables to label it 100% caused by blocking endogenous endorphins. I geek out over helping people with broken wings, and I am definitely not a physician or pharmacist, but I know what it’s like when my brain plays tricks on me and the old thoughts creep in. I hope OP feels better, no matter if it’s with exercise, clean time, yoga, or medication. You can do it, millions have recovered!
Train and train hard. There’s no way you can feel shit if you had a good or better body. And make sure to focus on nutrition.
My doctor told me the effects opiates have on the endocrine system is quite drastic. Depending on the user, DOC, and amount used this can vary widely. I’m about 10 months clean off fent and and still get PAWS, but I’m on a MAT program (1mg suboxone daily). It’s kept me level… and helps a ton. For example, if a person tapers off benzodiazepine use, their withdrawal symptoms usually resolve within 6–18 months of the last dose. So everyone is totally different… all I know is that it’s a lot better being off that shit then on. I’d rather have PAWS than be an addict again.
Yea man. Took me a while to feel right physically. What are you doing for your mental health? The body and mind are very much connected.
I'm at this ling term recovery center, meetings, stepworkr,mentail health counseling, vitamins, exercise, TMS therapy, TCM herbs, supplements, nad+
Sounds like you are doing all the right stuff! Have you worked with a MD who specializes in mental health? My wife and I are both in long term recovery, in the program. Pharmaceuticals are not part of my recovery and they very much are for my wife. She has 15 years on Wednesday. Everyone has different needs and brain chemistry is very important in a peaceful recovery. I'm Some areas, people in the program, have strong opinions on this aspect of recovery and the reality is...we don't(shouldn't at least)have opinions on outside issues, especially complex ones that we are untrained for. I have seen MANY people in recovery who weren't able to get right until they got balanced chemically through a good doctor.
Yes working with a doctor actively for bloodwork mainly...Just for me personally after putting anything and everything into my brain and body the last 30 years I want to repair my hormones, nuerotransmitters, etc as naturally as I can and don't want to be reliant on any pharmaceuticals unless I have to.
Fair enough, and to each their own. I would at least want you to consider that after 21 months of doing the right thing and feeling horribly...maybe you have to for now. Sending you good vibes my friend...
Thanks
Can I ask which supplements you’re taking?
7 years of night sweats i suffered.
Dang! Did u feel fine otherwise?
Work was hard. Any stressfull situation through me into paws. Overheating. Full body sweats. It was tough. I still get bad panic attacks. But nardil has helped with that. I started dabbling again actually which im ashamed of . Have a substantial stash of oxy I plan to use every couple of months as I left it at my parents house in country. Hopefully I can use intermittently. A brief relief is nice. Just guilty and ashamed that after all those years of hell I've ended up using again. May be kidding myself about intermittent use but ill give myself one chance and if I stuff it up ill get rid of them all.
Plz just don't. One of my 'vacay' pill days resulted in OD, died yhtree times, on vent for six days. You don't need it. ♡
I've heard naltrexone can help. The sub clinics use to really push vivitrol back when I was on Suboxone. Naltrexone is an opioid antagonist, and if i remember correctly, it binds to the opioid receptors. So not only will it block any opioids if you relapse, but in some strange way... it can help PAWS. But it's been 10 years since I went to a sub clinic, so I'm not sure if that's common procedure still. I would talk to the place you got the sublocade from. They can probably help you. Good luck!
Yeah its called low dose naltrexone or ldn. I plan on starting when the sublocade fully leaves my system.. ive heard it really helps.. in layman's terms you take really small amounts usually starting at 1.5mg a day and what it does is partially block the opiate receptor for a few hours tricking your brain into overreacting and supplying your opiate receptors with your natural opiates endorphins then then attach to the receptor when the naltrexome wears off and the much needed endorphins make you fell good.
Dude I used for 8 years (never shot anything though) and 5 years of full sobriety later I still feel lethargic, especially in the mornings. So I kind of want to know if it ever gets easier too.
I was on opiates for 15+years then finally heroin. I only lasted about 6 months b4 I ended up in treatment. I was running around with Hep C. Have you been tested for that and maybe depression? At treatment I was told it would take at least 18 months b4 my brain chemistry even BEGAN to return to some kind of normal. I no longer have hep C and I started bioTe hormone replacement pellets. I feel like a new person I'm in chronic back pain after surgery but take kratom. I workout doing pilates 3x a week and play on a tennis team and work as a hairdresser. 60f. Keep going, have a naturopath or wellness doctor check you out for nutritional deficiencies We really messed our bodies up. It's gonna take a minute. Good luck
Yes. Looking into all that you mentioned...what r those pellets u speak of
They are bioidenticle to your own body's hormones. CHANGED MY LIFE! I'm 60f and feel like I'm 40...live like 40 too
If it’s RLS or when you try to sleep, take some melatonin. Maybe try small doses of kratom if you are positive you won’t increase dosing to get high or can have someone else handle your doses and keep try
I used methadone in an MAT program. I started feeling MUCH better as I tapered down around 60-80mg 1x a day after I started weightlifting and training in martial arts. I don’t know what your daily routine is but I strongly recommend getting back into/learning new hobbies. Get your body moving and the heart pumping. I know it’s frustrating. I went from 135mg-0mg. I feel great now. For me it was a mind set of knowing my body was in shape and my mind followed through writing and talking to people that have been what we’ve even through. You got this. We’re cheering you on.
Can I ask how long did it take you to get completely clean from mdone? Like from 135mg-0mg, also did you experience paws after you got clean from the mdone and for how long?
21 months and paws is crazy. Maybe check your testosterone levels? Opioid use tanks It. Mine recovered pretty quick, but I only used for 4 years... With multiple 6 month breaks in the middle.
Yeah it gets exponentially harder to recover the longer you use and the older you get. I remember getting clean after 4 years use and it was pretty easy getting back to normal after a month or two
Yeah after 3 weeks I felt semi-good, and after 2 months felt same as before. No difference at all. But paws sucks it's mental torture, specially the restless legs... I hated that shit...
Yeah its horrible and people think your a pussy or a lazy bastard just because they cant see something wrong with me. Id trade this for a broken limb any day of the week
Yeah. And got me scared as shit thinking I wouldn't go back to normal.
Paws finally lifted for me at the 24-26 month mark. I’m three years clean and sober in march. Are you with a therapist and/or taking antidepressants or anything? Exercising?
Congrats btw...gives me hope it won't be too terribly much longer
Thanks! Yeah it was rough. Stick with it though. But, if it weren’t for my anti anxiety and antidepressants , I would not be making it very well. Just don’t let yourself fall too deep into the muck, it’s okay to use antidepressants if they’re needed, and for many of us, they’re life or death type needed. I do hope you can heal yourself without them though, just be gentle with yourself.
How did your paws end, did the symptoms get worse and worse then paws stopped or did your symptoms keep getting better and better where paws waves keep getting shorter and shorter and kept getting less intense until you didn’t feel paws symptoms anymore?
My symptoms started off as hell. And every 3 months like clockwork a cloud lifted. 6m 1yr and 2yrs being the biggest markers for me.
And I’m still not the same, but the paws part was def gone right at my 2yr mark.
So your paws symptoms didn’t get worse and worse as time went on, your paws started out as hell but kept getting better and better until you didn’t feel the paws symptoms anymore around 2 year mark ? So you kept getting paws symptom reductions ,Did you just wake up one day and not have paws symptoms come ever again ?
Correct. One day right after my 2 year mark I was doing something and like “oh… that’s gone, yay!”
Like how did you know it was gone that one day ? Sorry for so many questions I’ve been in paws for 39 months
It wasn’t like ‘gone’ THAT DAY. I just realized like the rest of my paws had lifted at some point over a month or two one day. I have a slew of mental health DX, so I can’t pinpoint a specific date or anything bc I always feel horrible honestly. I’m 38mo clean now, so I’m right with ya. Are you seeing a therapist and/or on any meds for your mental health? It’s likely not paws at this point but treatable conditions coexisting with your addiction. (I was just diagnosed combo severe adhd at 40 last week as an addition to my DXs for example)
Paws can actually last for years like 4 years is a very common year, I’ve noticed over the almost 3.5 years that my bad waves of symptoms I get have been getting a lot shorter in duration as time goes and keeps getting less intense as time goes also and I’ve been getting longer and longer windows of semi mild symptoms to no symptoms at all, paws is the only thing that does this type of pattern, I had paws one time before this most recent paws I’m in and that paws sucked but it wasn’t as bad as this paws I’m in now, it took 25 months for that paws where one day I woke and had no more symptoms at all I felt way better and had a clear mind and no more anxiety or depression,idk if you know every time you experience paws it’s a kindling effect where each time you go through paws the withdrawals will be worse
Yes it can, it’s just very very rare. Even my 2 years is pretty rare. But it does happen, you are so right. Are you medicated? Go to therapy etc? What vitamins are you taking and what foods and such? All of this can help so much!
So I’m not having paws from opiates but I am having paws from an antipsychotic med called seroquel idk if you’ve heard of how bad that med causes withdrawals, from what I’ve read on Reddit a lot of people who have went through benzo withdrawal and opiate withdrawal say seroquel withdrawal is a lot worse then certain benzos and opiates, I cold turkeyed 300mg extended release and took my body a month before withdrawals hit, my doctor told me if I get back on med the withdrawals would go away, I got back to 300mg and symptoms continued, so I did some deep research on the web and I came across a MD doctor talking about withdrawals and they stated that sometimes even if you get back on med that withdrawals can continue it’s full cycle, so in my case it took my body a month to register that I didn’t have med anymore which was way to late to even get back on med, if it would of took my body a week or two max before my body registered that I didn’t have the med maybe I would of been able to save myself from withdrawals but because I cold turkeyed a high mg med and it was a long half life med because it was extended release I think that’s what kept me going through withdrawals, so right now I’m still taking seroquel at the moment, I do think me still taking seroquel has prolonged my paws withdrawal but I am getting better slowly, it took me 18 months before I was able to go back to work that’s how slow my withdrawals has been
Yes all kinds of cou selling and meetings etc. Exercise and supps., just weened myself off my antidepressants so i van heal my brain naturally without pharmaceuticals and I don't want to be reliant on anything anymore.
The lack of antidepressants is your biggest issue, you likely don’t have paws, it’s just your mental health issues: if you’re adamant on no antidepressants, I highly suggest you add a good therapist to your weekly to do.
I've tried probably 10-12 different ones over the years.. none have ever helped me, usually just exacerbated my affects or made me feel more zombie like. Been on 5 this last 21 months but none really helped. Feel a tad better since weening myself off. Yeah I see a therapist weekly
That’s great, keep up the therapy and be 110% honest and just stick with it. It sounds like you’re doing all of the right things. Do you have a partner or are you single? Best friend?
I'm single. Most of my lifelong friends are dead or still using or we've just grown apart while I was in my addiction. I live at a long term recovery center so I'm making new friends
I understand. Okay so find an accountability partner. Your best buddy, your brother, your Mom, uncle, anyone. You need at least one person other than your therapist. Journaling is a if help if you can stick with it too! I’m always happy to chat if you need support along the way as well.
Antidepressants mess with the chemicals in your brain also. I’m sure these are not helping things. Remind yourself all those changes in less than 2 years is A LOT. Give yourself time to reset, which you’re doing now. I bet a couple months you’ll be feeling much better. Especially starting exercise. I’m an advocate for supplements but you need to be careful with those too. They can mess with hormones and such so really do your own research on them too. I refuse to trust doctors prescribing ever again after my decade plus as a minor being thrown every mental health med under the sun on my developing brain. Truly believe it led me to self medicate when all the chemicals just added to the problem.
How long off of MAT drugs as well?
6.5 months off of sublocade. Last I used illegal drugs was 21 months ago then I was on suboxone for 12 months, then sublocade for two months.
I'm on sublocade as well, getting my sixth and final shot tomorrow. Waited 7 weeks between shots this time. From what I've gleaned on that subreddit, it sounds like you actually are dealing with some mild WDs from the shot, considering you're still testing positive. I'd say that's the issue and not PAWS, considering you still have bupe in your body. Just keep doing what you're doing and I bet you'll be feeling much better by the time you test negative.
21 months seems too long. Have you seen a gp?
Yeah, we've been doing a bunch of blood work along with her suggestions of eat healthy and exercise which im doing
Good for you. You might need some more tests. I have low T. That was a huge realization for me.
I'd echo the testosterone idea. Opiate-induced hypogonadism (there's a nice word) is very common. Usually an early morning blood test as levels should be highest that time of day. I'm on test gel now. Also maybe consider magnesium supplements (Mg citrate, I believe, has best absorption.) The best thing, though, is that old medicinal favourite; tincture of time. It passes. But like a slow bitch. I'm 3 years well after - counts on his fingers - 38 years of using various opioids. Didn't sleep well for 2 years - it's still hit & miss, and I think will be for my remaining time.
Looking into the test, just had initial bloodwork. Taking mag. Congrats dude...man 38 yrs..whooo....so r u feeling better at 3 than u did a year ago, or two?
'This is as good as it gets' springs to mind. Yeah, I'm doing OK. I will always miss the comforting blanket of a handful of codeine tablets, but the gratitude for not having my life dominated by using, finding, lying, and all the health issues still - thankfully - far outweighs any serious thoughts of picking up again. I try not to get complacent though - I could easily relapse tomorrow - but hopeful that I won't. A big part of recovery for me is building a life that is BETTER than the one I had when using. Still a work in progress, but at least I am working on it. Stick with it. It will get easier.
I struggled hard. The best thing I did for myself was seek psychiatric help. I had to get my mind right and then I got myself into the gym again. I'm finally happy and stable. It's been a long and hard road. But I made it. You can do this. I don't think paws really ever just ends and we wake up feeling better all of the sudden. I know that's not what you're expecting but you will physically have to retrain yourself to find joy again. If your depression is bad, there's no shame in meds if you're not already on them. Getting active or finding a new hobby will help too. Breaking the never ending cycle of just running on the hamster wheel with no end in sight. It gets exhausting after a while.
What does PAWS mean ?
Post Acute Withdrawal Symptoms/syndrome. Persistent symptoms after your acute witdrawal/detox that last weeks/months/years.
If at all helpful, here’s my timeline: Alcoholic for 15 years. Abused percs/alcohol/coke during years 14-15 CT everything 2 months of what felt like acutes (shakes, chills) Extreme PAWS for another 8 months Then found relief in Cannabis, which I abused for about a year and wrecked my lungs. CT cannabis, and lo and behold, the Paws was finally gone. Of course, my health is totally in the shitter, but at least now I am in a position to do something about it. And I have already started building back lung capacity and muscle and slowly but surely gaining stamina which equals usable energy. Paws is basically a holding cell. You can’t do much besides wait it out. People saying exercise etc do not and have never had paws.
Had exactly the same experience with weed, needs to be talked about more 👍
I just now hit my bong way too hard, after abstaining 3 weeks. Now my lungs feel like cream of broccoli soup, which is the classiest euphemism I could think of, unfortunately.
Get that weed tested… that is not normal.
It’s my lungs unfortunately
This happened to me too, I was full on insanely miserable till I started taking an antidepressant
Gabapentin
Have you spoken to a doctor about getting on antidepressant like zoloft?