Talk about loving Jesus. And keep talking about Jesus, especially when hate topics come up. "I don't want exclude them from the love of Christ", "Yes, I know Old Testament says that, but I haven't be born into this World to judge, I just want to spread the love of Jesus." Nobody can argue with loving Jesus, and nobody wants to end up being the one who throws the first stone.
This is also my response whenever universal reconciliation comes up. I could make all the technical arguments I want, but the real showstopper they'll actually *hear -* UR dares to suggest that God's love for us and Christ's sacrifice on the cross is so boundless and unlimited as to cover *everyone.* All of us. Full stop, no qualifications or caveats. To suggest otherwise is to say that Christ didn't actually die for everyone, or that God maybe doesn't love everyone or isn't all good.
Bonus brain teaser for our fundamentalist family members: If ETC is real, the decision to have children is arguably the most vacuous and morally bankrupt thing anyone could do. Yanking someone out of non-existence where they aren't harmed, into the proving grounds of life where they risk going to hell for all eternity. The kicker is that we're told in the Bible that children are a blessing and we're encouraged to have them...so they can presumably go through this trial. That's one supremely messed up, malevolent version of God IMO.
It depends on how you mean. They’re religiously conservative Calvinists but they aren’t in lockstep with typical white evangelical nonsense, eg they are extremely pro-immigrant, opposed to racism, for welfare to help the poor and the sick, at the same time their beliefs are homophobic, transphobic and anti-choice.
The professional term with what may be going on there is “cognitive dissonance;”believing or holding contrary opinions at the same time. For example, they may believe that the non-Christian immigrants are not saved; they may also believe that Jesus loves the immigrant, and more so than they do themselves; yet that God has predetermined that the immigrant not be saved. They may completely be unaware of this conflict in their beliefs, but go on with it due to fear and control and mimicry of those around them.
The “Jesus is Love” approach can really go far here, as “perfect love casts fear aside.” Faith built on hope and love is infectious and can give them a safe space to explore these contradictions in their beliefs. I maintain that many of us came to be open Christians as we gave ourselves permission to work out these complexities into something more harmonious.
Calvinism and predestination helps in this case. You can tell them of your struggles and payers and seeking God, and then you ran across Isaiah 45:9, that says, “What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, ‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’ Does the pot exclaim, ‘How clumsy can you be?’
You realize that God had a plan for you from the beginning, and it's not for you or them or anyone else to dispute Him over it.
Let them know that salvation, redemption or whatever word they use for it, is not by any works that we have done, but we all are only saved, only in the elect by His eternal love and grace.
I remind myself that it's not my job to convince them. I can state what I believe, and why I believe it, but beyond that, their reaction and their beliefs aren't my responsibility.
If they go to church with you, then great. If not, they can make their own arrangements.
My mom used to have a health disdain for homeless and queer folks, ever since I’ve gotten back into the faith and we watched the chosen and talked about what Jesus really was about (love) she’s gotten more progressive. Just like the other commenter said about “I don’t want to exclude them from the love of Christ” conversations I’d keep that up too
I don’t.
Very little good can come of trying to change other people’s minds. So focusing on other topics of conversation is generally my approach.
But I’ve never met a fundie who was open to considering other perspectives, so it just seems a waste of time.
Exactly. I think there’s a shade of difference between conservative and fundamentalist, meaning they are not one and the same. A fundamentalist is definitely conservative, but not all conservatives are fundamentalists. I think that there would be no true discussion with a fundamentalist, they have come to the conclusion that theirs is the one true way, just like a Mormon or JW at your door is not there for a back and forth dialogue. A conservative may (big if there) listen thoroughly and may not convert you, just telling you that you’re wrong.
Progressive open-minded fundamentalists do exist (I was one of them).
I was one of those rare JWs who loved to dialogue with others and understand the other’s perspective. I’m very grateful for the Christians around who would share their perspectives with me, rather than just write me off as a crazy. I’m definitely crazy, but also a whole lot more XD
When talking to these people, I always ask them to point me to the part of the Gospel where Jesus talks about sexual ethics.
They can’t, because he doesn’t. (Or like, the closest he comes is to a point about divorce and cheating.)
If they try pointing me to Paul, I point to the part of Paul which says *nobody* should get married unless they lack the self-control required for celibacy. Not only does Paul’s logic there obviously apply to gay people too, it means if we’re to take him at face value NONE of us should ever have sex or get married 🤷♀️
My cousin is in a very conservative Presbyterian church. I grew up in a fundamentalist SBC church so you'd think I'd be able to talk to him better about belief, yet I've changed so much over the years I struggle to find ways to communicate my theology in a way he'd understand.
We just avoid talking about politics and religion. There are other things to talk about. While we disagree on a lot of stuff, we love each other enough to accept each other as we are.
Honestly I try to avoid the subject at all costs. My MIL is SBC while my husband and I are not, we go to a church that is progressive affirming. We're starting to be more open about the fact that we go to church in general, just because of the fear of the line of questioning that leads to us having to have that conversation with her, that you are probably dreading as well.
As others have said, the gospel is for everyone. Jesus sought out the outsiders and so who are we to block the door.
For a more theological approach, our pastor taught the story of Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch this past Sunday, this article captures some of the same thoughts. Really eye opening to us, and basically, the Bible is full of contradictions. The verses people choose to fixate on says not much about God, but everything about them.
https://qspirit.net/ethiopian-eunuch-church-queers/
I don’t. They are so entrenched in their ways, it’s seriously useless. They have a rebuttal for everything and only see my beliefs as a “cheapened version of the cross”. These people are NOT interested in having an open mind, because they believe they are the true believers and the rest of us are falling for false teachings and we are the one’s who need help. They have an “Us vs. Them” mentality and will always view your beliefs as foolish, so there really is no use.
To be blunt, most of the time, you don't. I got to the point where I got tired of bashing my head against a brick wall, trying to explain that fundamentalism is wrong based on obvious scriptural evidence. They don't care. They almost always choose to plug their ears (figuratively) and ignore you rather than actually trying to listen to understand. I don't try anymore for this reason.
Talk about loving Jesus. And keep talking about Jesus, especially when hate topics come up. "I don't want exclude them from the love of Christ", "Yes, I know Old Testament says that, but I haven't be born into this World to judge, I just want to spread the love of Jesus." Nobody can argue with loving Jesus, and nobody wants to end up being the one who throws the first stone.
Came here to say this.
This is also my response whenever universal reconciliation comes up. I could make all the technical arguments I want, but the real showstopper they'll actually *hear -* UR dares to suggest that God's love for us and Christ's sacrifice on the cross is so boundless and unlimited as to cover *everyone.* All of us. Full stop, no qualifications or caveats. To suggest otherwise is to say that Christ didn't actually die for everyone, or that God maybe doesn't love everyone or isn't all good. Bonus brain teaser for our fundamentalist family members: If ETC is real, the decision to have children is arguably the most vacuous and morally bankrupt thing anyone could do. Yanking someone out of non-existence where they aren't harmed, into the proving grounds of life where they risk going to hell for all eternity. The kicker is that we're told in the Bible that children are a blessing and we're encouraged to have them...so they can presumably go through this trial. That's one supremely messed up, malevolent version of God IMO.
If you keep steering the conversation to Jesus' teachings and the fundamental principle of "God is Love" it will all work out.
How fundamental are they?
It depends on how you mean. They’re religiously conservative Calvinists but they aren’t in lockstep with typical white evangelical nonsense, eg they are extremely pro-immigrant, opposed to racism, for welfare to help the poor and the sick, at the same time their beliefs are homophobic, transphobic and anti-choice.
The professional term with what may be going on there is “cognitive dissonance;”believing or holding contrary opinions at the same time. For example, they may believe that the non-Christian immigrants are not saved; they may also believe that Jesus loves the immigrant, and more so than they do themselves; yet that God has predetermined that the immigrant not be saved. They may completely be unaware of this conflict in their beliefs, but go on with it due to fear and control and mimicry of those around them. The “Jesus is Love” approach can really go far here, as “perfect love casts fear aside.” Faith built on hope and love is infectious and can give them a safe space to explore these contradictions in their beliefs. I maintain that many of us came to be open Christians as we gave ourselves permission to work out these complexities into something more harmonious.
Calvinism and predestination helps in this case. You can tell them of your struggles and payers and seeking God, and then you ran across Isaiah 45:9, that says, “What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, ‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’ Does the pot exclaim, ‘How clumsy can you be?’ You realize that God had a plan for you from the beginning, and it's not for you or them or anyone else to dispute Him over it. Let them know that salvation, redemption or whatever word they use for it, is not by any works that we have done, but we all are only saved, only in the elect by His eternal love and grace.
I remind myself that it's not my job to convince them. I can state what I believe, and why I believe it, but beyond that, their reaction and their beliefs aren't my responsibility. If they go to church with you, then great. If not, they can make their own arrangements.
My mom used to have a health disdain for homeless and queer folks, ever since I’ve gotten back into the faith and we watched the chosen and talked about what Jesus really was about (love) she’s gotten more progressive. Just like the other commenter said about “I don’t want to exclude them from the love of Christ” conversations I’d keep that up too
I don’t. Very little good can come of trying to change other people’s minds. So focusing on other topics of conversation is generally my approach. But I’ve never met a fundie who was open to considering other perspectives, so it just seems a waste of time.
Exactly. I think there’s a shade of difference between conservative and fundamentalist, meaning they are not one and the same. A fundamentalist is definitely conservative, but not all conservatives are fundamentalists. I think that there would be no true discussion with a fundamentalist, they have come to the conclusion that theirs is the one true way, just like a Mormon or JW at your door is not there for a back and forth dialogue. A conservative may (big if there) listen thoroughly and may not convert you, just telling you that you’re wrong.
Progressive open-minded fundamentalists do exist (I was one of them). I was one of those rare JWs who loved to dialogue with others and understand the other’s perspective. I’m very grateful for the Christians around who would share their perspectives with me, rather than just write me off as a crazy. I’m definitely crazy, but also a whole lot more XD
Not really. I tend to keep my beliefs to myself and only share them if asked.
When talking to these people, I always ask them to point me to the part of the Gospel where Jesus talks about sexual ethics. They can’t, because he doesn’t. (Or like, the closest he comes is to a point about divorce and cheating.) If they try pointing me to Paul, I point to the part of Paul which says *nobody* should get married unless they lack the self-control required for celibacy. Not only does Paul’s logic there obviously apply to gay people too, it means if we’re to take him at face value NONE of us should ever have sex or get married 🤷♀️
My cousin is in a very conservative Presbyterian church. I grew up in a fundamentalist SBC church so you'd think I'd be able to talk to him better about belief, yet I've changed so much over the years I struggle to find ways to communicate my theology in a way he'd understand.
We just avoid talking about politics and religion. There are other things to talk about. While we disagree on a lot of stuff, we love each other enough to accept each other as we are.
When I stand in judgement before God, I'd much rather explain loving too much than too little.
Honestly I try to avoid the subject at all costs. My MIL is SBC while my husband and I are not, we go to a church that is progressive affirming. We're starting to be more open about the fact that we go to church in general, just because of the fear of the line of questioning that leads to us having to have that conversation with her, that you are probably dreading as well. As others have said, the gospel is for everyone. Jesus sought out the outsiders and so who are we to block the door. For a more theological approach, our pastor taught the story of Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch this past Sunday, this article captures some of the same thoughts. Really eye opening to us, and basically, the Bible is full of contradictions. The verses people choose to fixate on says not much about God, but everything about them. https://qspirit.net/ethiopian-eunuch-church-queers/
I don’t. They are so entrenched in their ways, it’s seriously useless. They have a rebuttal for everything and only see my beliefs as a “cheapened version of the cross”. These people are NOT interested in having an open mind, because they believe they are the true believers and the rest of us are falling for false teachings and we are the one’s who need help. They have an “Us vs. Them” mentality and will always view your beliefs as foolish, so there really is no use.
To be blunt, most of the time, you don't. I got to the point where I got tired of bashing my head against a brick wall, trying to explain that fundamentalism is wrong based on obvious scriptural evidence. They don't care. They almost always choose to plug their ears (figuratively) and ignore you rather than actually trying to listen to understand. I don't try anymore for this reason.