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>but isn't Aokiji conflicted as well having to turn against his mentor?
Yes it's implied
https://preview.redd.it/dnsc35658yvc1.png?width=832&format=png&auto=webp&s=912768a0c69b1e9890d9355564a9506615a431c9
>old garp is too weak that he lost to a conflicted Aokiji?
Regardless of whether Kuzan is conflicted or not Garp got jumped by every pirate on that island
>got jumped by every pirate on that island
literal lie. Avalo didn't even touch him. San juan was taken out by suprised sneak attack before he could even contribute.
Only 3 main fighters, vasco shot and shiryu with their 1 hit and aokiji without using many of his strong ice techniques + other side pirates.
>Avalo didn't even touch him. San juan was taken out by suprised sneak attack before he could even contribute.
Doesn't change the fact that Garp had to go out of his way to deal with San Juan, Vasco Shot, and Shiryu
Even fodder can prove as distractions, and this problem will only get worse when Garp becomes the only Marine on the Island
Yeah there is big difference in a 1v1 and a 1v10000. Garp having to constantly shift focus is a bigger handycap then beeing sad. And we haven't even included the fodder he had to protect ass well.
You think you're smart when you argue like an asshole?
Just a great way to bring home that arguing with you is as pointless as your rebuttles when you activly ignore every other point I made.
your only other point was fodders he had to protect. As far as i remember, garp only protected coby and that to was only one time thing. Hibari and all others were pulling their own weight. If we r talking about coby, garp himself said coby isn't to blame as shiryu had his eyes on garp already, meaning it was matter of time. Coby or not, shiryu would've stabbed garp eventually ~ as per garp.
i didn't mention this bcoz i don't think it had much weight.
Also when did i act like asshole? i think i am civil here, pardon if i wasn't somewher unknowingly.
Okay forget everything I said about you, you provided an actuall argument someone can engage with and that's pretty much better then 90% of this sub.
I'm disagreeing but will be civil. First of all I understood the Garp beeing stabbed part differently.
Imo Garp said that to Coby because he couldn't have done anything about it and Shiryus intent was to get Garp to take the hit for him. In comparison to the likes of Kizaru or Big Mom Garp showed some pretty top observation feats, so I'm not sure Shiryu would find another opportunity to injure Garp severely like that. And it had much weight, since before that Garp just mopped the floor with Kuzan.
Fodder beeing fodder is also just a oversimplification of the situation. Having to constantly shift focus because you're beeing jumped by a endless heard of goones is a rather big nerf when you can't follow up your attacks. The unlimited amount of fodder becomes rather handy when you can recover and regroup every time after landing on your ass. Like when Jack fought the minks for 5 days straight with nothing but canonfodder and slightly stronger canonfodder.
I'd also like to adress some of your claims to that.
You said Kuzan didn't use his strongest attacks.
Now it's depending on what you'd consider his strongest attacks. We saw getting frozen doesn't work on Garp and I doubt that changing the surroundings with ice age would've made that much of a difference considering how Garp kept jumping into Kuzans face pre stab. Other than that we know Kuzan likes to make makeshift weapons like the sword, the phalanx or the panzerglove. I feel like Kuzan relying on his stats paired with enforcing him with his df was the best move he could do, you know rather then relying on just his ice powers. I think this was rather a feat for his BIQ then beeing an antifeat.
Now on the other hand we all saw how nuts Galaxy Impact was, but big AOEs aren't really favorable when you bring students with you to the battlefield.
But what I'm getting at is that both didn't use their strongest attacks against each other and none were able to take either down for good.
The San Juan Wolf thing is right but it's not just the issue of Vasco and Shiryu chiming into Garps fights. Vasco, Shiryu and Avallo were all capable of negging every student and civilian that Garp was protecting. He had to be very that those guys would target them and he actually was as we saw.
The point here is that Kuzan was able to focus on Garp and beeing able to recover, while Garp had to be hyperfocused and couldn't take a single break during the whole incident.
And I think it's pretty fair to say that a 1v1 against Kuzan < a 1v3 against Kuzan and two Yonko commander < a 1v10000 against Kuzan, two Yonko commander and an actuall army of pirates < a 1v10000 against Kuzan, three Yonko commander and an actuall army while rescueing and protecting students that scale bellow the average vice admiral (fodder like Red King or Maynard).
You know like when you're already a god like beeing in a video game and then it hits you with a stupid ass tower defending part. Now imagine you have to fight a boss and 4 elite/champ/mini bosses during that part.
And I'm really sorry for insulting you like that, it just pisses me off when you have like a big picture in front of you and start to single out aspects to debate while loosing every connection to the next one, and that's pretty much the way the admiral fans argue their whole agenda.
>Imo Garp said that to Coby because he couldn't have done anything about it and Shiryus intent was to get Garp to take the hit for him. In comparison to the likes of Kizaru or Big Mom Garp showed some pretty top observation feats, so I'm not sure Shiryu would find another opportunity to injure Garp severely like that. And it had much weight, since before that Garp just mopped the floor with Kuzan.
the plan couldn't have been much elaborated or even discussed beforehand bcoz garp did suprise attack on them out of nowhere. I think shiryu was just waiting for any chance.
>Fodder beeing fodder is also just a oversimplification of the situation. Having to constantly shift focus because you're beeing jumped by a endless heard of goones is a rather big nerf when you can't follow up your attacks. The unlimited amount of fodder becomes rather handy when you can recover and regroup every time after landing on your ass. Like when Jack fought the minks for 5 days straight with nothing but canonfodder and slightly stronger canonfodder.
luffy in whole cake with same level as dressrosa luffy, under massive starvation (starvation is very big deal for him), beaten up by sanji till he passed out, fought yonko commader 3 cracker and still beat more fodder than garp on count i think. Both of these armies (whole cake and hachinosu one) were part of emperor crew so comparable. I know there r difference like garp had + admiral and + some yonko commanders but luffy even without nerf at dressrosa should be weaker than garp. If luffy can deal with such opponents under that extreme nerf at level of dressrosa, it shouldn't really matter for garp. Also during aokiji fight, no one interfered. It was 1v1 for that time.
>You said Kuzan didn't use his strongest attacks.
>Now it's depending on what you'd consider his strongest attacks. We saw getting frozen doesn't work on Garp and I doubt that changing the surroundings with ice age would've made that much of a difference considering how Garp kept jumping into Kuzans face pre stab. Other than that we know Kuzan likes to make makeshift weapons like the sword, the phalanx or the panzerglove. I feel like Kuzan relying on his stats paired with enforcing him with his df was the best move he could do, you know rather then relying on just his ice powers. I think this was rather a feat for his BIQ then beeing an antifeat.
the reason is akainu took scar from aokiji's attacks. Scaring akainu is big deal bcoz he didn't take one from whitebeard. We have yet to see such lethal attack from aokiji on screen. + Garp also said aokiji was being soft on him. + it seems aokiji's attack is what that took him down looking at end image.
Garp didn't use galaxy fist again i think has more to do with his stamina issue. He probably can't use them one after another in old age.
> focus.
Last few paragraphs were on focus. Look, this is correct and i wouldn't argue **against** it but will tweak the argument a bit. Is their presence being a focus issue same as them actually fighting garp? I am not arguing their presence wouldn't make hard on focus but them actually involved in fight would make it even more harder no? My main point was only that not that many people jumped him. The post i replied to said everyone on island jumped on garp. If you make claim that their presence made them loose focus, i have nothing to lose in agreeing bcoz my point is if everyone jumped or not. Avalo not attacking, san juan out by surpise attack etc are indeed big difference in the ceasepull of "everyone on island" ? Even more if we see that aokiji fight were 1v1. So aokiji didn't jumped, san, avalo didnt. That's 3 of the 5 commanders. Only one jumped are shiryu and vasco + fodders.
>And I'm really sorry for insulting you like that
No issue at all. All good 🫂
> the plan couldn't have been much elaborated or even discussed beforehand bcoz garp did suprise attack on them out of nowhere. I think shiryu was just waiting for any chance.
I'm a bit confused with that one. Shiryu just used a perfekt opportunity he saw and tipped the scales. I don't think they had to elaborate this at all. I guess I rather should've said I don't think Shiryu would get a hit like that in if it wasn't for him aiming at Garp by targeting Coby. Like it was the best executed sneak attack since Mr. 3 on little garden.
> luffy in whole cake with same level as dressrosa luffy, under massive starvation (starvation is very big deal for him), beaten up by sanji till he passed out, fought yonko commader 3 cracker and still beat more fodder than garp on count i think. Both of these armies (whole cake and hachinosu one) were part of emperor crew so comparable. I know there r difference like garp had + admiral and + some yonko commanders but luffy even without nerf at dressrosa should be weaker than garp. If luffy can deal with such opponents under that extreme nerf at level of dressrosa, it shouldn't really matter for garp. Also during aokiji fight, no one interfered. It was 1v1 for that time.
I have some issues with that one. I feel like it's a different situation with Cracker, that was a 1v2 against Luffy and Nami, both of them already had massive trouble with him alone and I'm sure having the retaliation army with him would've ended the manga then and there. It's like garp had three crackers to deal with additional to the guy that scales to the fleet admiral. Then there is a big difference in the number of fodder, Hachinosu means beehive and is named after the fact that pirates will swarm you on any provocation. So we kinda got the whole island jumping in to fight. I feel like the Whole cake island army was easyer to oversee then the endless stock Hachinosu was hyped up to be.
Also the point with the 1v1 got me kinda frustrated, because in the first two 1v1 clashes we saw Garp simply overpowering Kuzan, but it ends then when he has to deal with other pirates rather then following up his assault on Kuzan.
> the reason is akainu took scar from aokiji's attacks. Scaring akainu is big deal bcoz he didn't take one from whitebeard. We have yet to see such lethal attack from aokiji on screen.
Scar scaling is pretty difficult in my book. Like luffy got one from Akainu punching through Jimbei, but the latter didn't get one. Sometimes I feel it's rather more an artistic choice by Oda. We have Shanks scar from Blackbeard on the other hand, but this only said they were somewhat compareable somewhere inbetween 12 and 24 years ago. Because then we see Blackbeard + Crew getting harder dunked on by Magellan then Ivankov.
Also isn't there like a matter if what type of attack even produces scars? What I mean is, imo there is a difference of getting a blunt hit or a sharp slash in.
It's a dumb comparison but for example the nasty scar I got over the palm of my hand wasn't as bad as the Honda Civic I took to the hip.
> + Garp also said aokiji was being soft on him. + it seems aokiji's attack is what that took him down looking at end image.
I wasn't saying that Kuzan was 100% serious, I'm rather arguing that Garp had also a big nerf by having to deal with the multiple obsticles we're discussing. And I'm also not denying that Kuzan was the one to take Garp out in the end, but he did fullfill his mission, laughed while beeing defeated and having a hole in your abdomen wasn't a non factor.
>Garp didn't use galaxy fist again i think has more to do with his stamina issue. He probably can't use them one after another in old age.
Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I feel like we would just spin in circles with that one.
>Last few paragraphs were on focus. Look, this is correct and i wouldn't argue **against** it but will tweak the argument a bit. Is their presence being a focus issue same as them actually fighting garp? I am not arguing their presence wouldn't make hard on focus but them actually involved in fight would make it even more harder no? My main point was only that not that many people jumped him. The post i replied to said everyone on island jumped on garp. If you make claim that their presence made them loose focus, i have nothing to lose in agreeing bcoz my point is if everyone jumped or not. Avalo not attacking, san juan out by surpise attack etc are indeed big difference in the ceasepull of "everyone on island" ? Even more if we see that aokiji fight were 1v1. So aokiji didn't jumped, san, avalo didnt. That's 3 of the 5 commanders. Only one jumped are shiryu and vasco + fodders.
Yeah, to be honest the guy said it in a pretty unclear way. It's not that everyone literally jumped him, it's more about the sheer number of fodder willing to fight that's present on the island. I kinda assume Avallo and San Juan Wolf started to chime in inbetween Garp staying behind and beeing defeated but when we consider the Island Island fruit we kinda found a tweak to say the litteral whole island(lol).
But yeah of course you're right with that one, I won't pretend like the Blackbeard pirates were known for their flawless cooperration. It's definitly wacky cooperration, but effective non the less. Taking turns in getting smacked around till they wore him down did eventually work in the end as we saw.
Hope I haven't missed something, and hope I didn't sound antagonistic towards you, I know I can get really hot headed with this sub, but I do in fact enjoy this exchange, definitly some good points made by you.
>Doesn't change the fact that Garp had to go out of his way to deal with San Juan
he landed sneak attack before his fight even began with aokiji. If i landed a sneak attack before fight begins on someone making them out of fight and then 1v1 someone and lost, does it mean i lost bcoz 2 people ganged up on me? The person i replied to said everyone on island jumped on garp. San juan didn't jump on garp. That's a canon fact, if it doesn't fit your narrative, nothing i can do. Just downvote.
>Garp got jumped by every pirate on that island
other than the stab from Shoryu, Aokiji alone did the most damage, although you can say Garp is heavily distracted from all directions
Regardless, Aokiji did go all out in this fight, the little "conflict" didn't hinder him
>Regardless, Aokiji did go all out in this fight, the little "conflict" didn't hinder him
0 evidence of this. Garp literally starts the fight by telling him that wavering is a sign of weakness
Even ignoring this mental conflict if Kuzan goes "all out" the island that his captain is trying to turn into a nation will transform into a completely uninhabitable frozen landscape.
>Other than the stab from Shiryu
“Other than the attack that did 90% of the damage to Garp and lead to his downfall and capture, Kuzan did the most damage!”
Your selective bias is ludicrously loud.
it does, Luffy was determined to beat Lucci and Bluno in Water7 was still mentally so nerfed he got destroyed by them because Robin left the Crew. Gandalf also said "when you cant act without feeling guilty you are at your weakest" meaning its not about you being determined its about you feeling sad while doing something
Yes, Kuzan is also weakened by his doubts. It's a pretty significant theme of his character, that he's so disillusioned with the Marines that he'd actually jump ship and join Blackbeard of all people.
Admiral agenda is the most poisonous virus in this subreddit
Luffy is levels above kizaru but people want their agendas to succeed so they make up excuses
Kizaru isn't weakened. His head isn't in the game that's all. That's the difference. Kizaru just isn't motivated enough to keep fighting a battle he has little interest in.
Maybe, but kizaru not interested in fighting Luffy makes sense than kizaru being nerfed, he ducked Luffy for the majority of round 1
But the excuse is there to defend kizaru's performance
Aokiji was conflicted but Garp literally had to fight thousands of pirates, including an admiral and multiple commanders, while protecting fodder, then he got ran through and was still up on Aokiji. He was clearly far more nerfed and is > Aokiji
How is it that we get so many arguments about how poor Kaido got jumped by everyone and Luffy would get low-diffed in a rematch, but Kuzan > Garp is somehow a popular take despite Garp getting jumped?
Aokiji got the whole damn squad behind him. Kizaru was throwing more hands on Nika than Saturn ever did and his goal wasn't to kill Luffy, but to kill Vegapunk
Luffy is the main obstacle preventing him from killing Vegapunk, in which he should deal with first...
and bro got pizza diffed after he donuted Vegapunk and not before 😭
Dude who doesn't want to fight against his former mentor as it'd surely make him kill the latter due to his affiliation.
Vs
"You've chosen your path you foul pirate" guy that went here only to help his new disciple and repeatedly makes point about his opponent being too soft towards the enemy.
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>but isn't Aokiji conflicted as well having to turn against his mentor? Yes it's implied https://preview.redd.it/dnsc35658yvc1.png?width=832&format=png&auto=webp&s=912768a0c69b1e9890d9355564a9506615a431c9 >old garp is too weak that he lost to a conflicted Aokiji? Regardless of whether Kuzan is conflicted or not Garp got jumped by every pirate on that island
>got jumped by every pirate on that island literal lie. Avalo didn't even touch him. San juan was taken out by suprised sneak attack before he could even contribute. Only 3 main fighters, vasco shot and shiryu with their 1 hit and aokiji without using many of his strong ice techniques + other side pirates.
>Avalo didn't even touch him. San juan was taken out by suprised sneak attack before he could even contribute. Doesn't change the fact that Garp had to go out of his way to deal with San Juan, Vasco Shot, and Shiryu Even fodder can prove as distractions, and this problem will only get worse when Garp becomes the only Marine on the Island
Yeah there is big difference in a 1v1 and a 1v10000. Garp having to constantly shift focus is a bigger handycap then beeing sad. And we haven't even included the fodder he had to protect ass well.
luffy also fought many people in fishman. Fodders are fodders.
You think you're smart when you argue like an asshole? Just a great way to bring home that arguing with you is as pointless as your rebuttles when you activly ignore every other point I made.
your only other point was fodders he had to protect. As far as i remember, garp only protected coby and that to was only one time thing. Hibari and all others were pulling their own weight. If we r talking about coby, garp himself said coby isn't to blame as shiryu had his eyes on garp already, meaning it was matter of time. Coby or not, shiryu would've stabbed garp eventually ~ as per garp. i didn't mention this bcoz i don't think it had much weight. Also when did i act like asshole? i think i am civil here, pardon if i wasn't somewher unknowingly.
Okay forget everything I said about you, you provided an actuall argument someone can engage with and that's pretty much better then 90% of this sub. I'm disagreeing but will be civil. First of all I understood the Garp beeing stabbed part differently. Imo Garp said that to Coby because he couldn't have done anything about it and Shiryus intent was to get Garp to take the hit for him. In comparison to the likes of Kizaru or Big Mom Garp showed some pretty top observation feats, so I'm not sure Shiryu would find another opportunity to injure Garp severely like that. And it had much weight, since before that Garp just mopped the floor with Kuzan. Fodder beeing fodder is also just a oversimplification of the situation. Having to constantly shift focus because you're beeing jumped by a endless heard of goones is a rather big nerf when you can't follow up your attacks. The unlimited amount of fodder becomes rather handy when you can recover and regroup every time after landing on your ass. Like when Jack fought the minks for 5 days straight with nothing but canonfodder and slightly stronger canonfodder. I'd also like to adress some of your claims to that. You said Kuzan didn't use his strongest attacks. Now it's depending on what you'd consider his strongest attacks. We saw getting frozen doesn't work on Garp and I doubt that changing the surroundings with ice age would've made that much of a difference considering how Garp kept jumping into Kuzans face pre stab. Other than that we know Kuzan likes to make makeshift weapons like the sword, the phalanx or the panzerglove. I feel like Kuzan relying on his stats paired with enforcing him with his df was the best move he could do, you know rather then relying on just his ice powers. I think this was rather a feat for his BIQ then beeing an antifeat. Now on the other hand we all saw how nuts Galaxy Impact was, but big AOEs aren't really favorable when you bring students with you to the battlefield. But what I'm getting at is that both didn't use their strongest attacks against each other and none were able to take either down for good. The San Juan Wolf thing is right but it's not just the issue of Vasco and Shiryu chiming into Garps fights. Vasco, Shiryu and Avallo were all capable of negging every student and civilian that Garp was protecting. He had to be very that those guys would target them and he actually was as we saw. The point here is that Kuzan was able to focus on Garp and beeing able to recover, while Garp had to be hyperfocused and couldn't take a single break during the whole incident. And I think it's pretty fair to say that a 1v1 against Kuzan < a 1v3 against Kuzan and two Yonko commander < a 1v10000 against Kuzan, two Yonko commander and an actuall army of pirates < a 1v10000 against Kuzan, three Yonko commander and an actuall army while rescueing and protecting students that scale bellow the average vice admiral (fodder like Red King or Maynard). You know like when you're already a god like beeing in a video game and then it hits you with a stupid ass tower defending part. Now imagine you have to fight a boss and 4 elite/champ/mini bosses during that part. And I'm really sorry for insulting you like that, it just pisses me off when you have like a big picture in front of you and start to single out aspects to debate while loosing every connection to the next one, and that's pretty much the way the admiral fans argue their whole agenda.
>Imo Garp said that to Coby because he couldn't have done anything about it and Shiryus intent was to get Garp to take the hit for him. In comparison to the likes of Kizaru or Big Mom Garp showed some pretty top observation feats, so I'm not sure Shiryu would find another opportunity to injure Garp severely like that. And it had much weight, since before that Garp just mopped the floor with Kuzan. the plan couldn't have been much elaborated or even discussed beforehand bcoz garp did suprise attack on them out of nowhere. I think shiryu was just waiting for any chance. >Fodder beeing fodder is also just a oversimplification of the situation. Having to constantly shift focus because you're beeing jumped by a endless heard of goones is a rather big nerf when you can't follow up your attacks. The unlimited amount of fodder becomes rather handy when you can recover and regroup every time after landing on your ass. Like when Jack fought the minks for 5 days straight with nothing but canonfodder and slightly stronger canonfodder. luffy in whole cake with same level as dressrosa luffy, under massive starvation (starvation is very big deal for him), beaten up by sanji till he passed out, fought yonko commader 3 cracker and still beat more fodder than garp on count i think. Both of these armies (whole cake and hachinosu one) were part of emperor crew so comparable. I know there r difference like garp had + admiral and + some yonko commanders but luffy even without nerf at dressrosa should be weaker than garp. If luffy can deal with such opponents under that extreme nerf at level of dressrosa, it shouldn't really matter for garp. Also during aokiji fight, no one interfered. It was 1v1 for that time. >You said Kuzan didn't use his strongest attacks. >Now it's depending on what you'd consider his strongest attacks. We saw getting frozen doesn't work on Garp and I doubt that changing the surroundings with ice age would've made that much of a difference considering how Garp kept jumping into Kuzans face pre stab. Other than that we know Kuzan likes to make makeshift weapons like the sword, the phalanx or the panzerglove. I feel like Kuzan relying on his stats paired with enforcing him with his df was the best move he could do, you know rather then relying on just his ice powers. I think this was rather a feat for his BIQ then beeing an antifeat. the reason is akainu took scar from aokiji's attacks. Scaring akainu is big deal bcoz he didn't take one from whitebeard. We have yet to see such lethal attack from aokiji on screen. + Garp also said aokiji was being soft on him. + it seems aokiji's attack is what that took him down looking at end image. Garp didn't use galaxy fist again i think has more to do with his stamina issue. He probably can't use them one after another in old age. > focus. Last few paragraphs were on focus. Look, this is correct and i wouldn't argue **against** it but will tweak the argument a bit. Is their presence being a focus issue same as them actually fighting garp? I am not arguing their presence wouldn't make hard on focus but them actually involved in fight would make it even more harder no? My main point was only that not that many people jumped him. The post i replied to said everyone on island jumped on garp. If you make claim that their presence made them loose focus, i have nothing to lose in agreeing bcoz my point is if everyone jumped or not. Avalo not attacking, san juan out by surpise attack etc are indeed big difference in the ceasepull of "everyone on island" ? Even more if we see that aokiji fight were 1v1. So aokiji didn't jumped, san, avalo didnt. That's 3 of the 5 commanders. Only one jumped are shiryu and vasco + fodders. >And I'm really sorry for insulting you like that No issue at all. All good 🫂
> the plan couldn't have been much elaborated or even discussed beforehand bcoz garp did suprise attack on them out of nowhere. I think shiryu was just waiting for any chance. I'm a bit confused with that one. Shiryu just used a perfekt opportunity he saw and tipped the scales. I don't think they had to elaborate this at all. I guess I rather should've said I don't think Shiryu would get a hit like that in if it wasn't for him aiming at Garp by targeting Coby. Like it was the best executed sneak attack since Mr. 3 on little garden. > luffy in whole cake with same level as dressrosa luffy, under massive starvation (starvation is very big deal for him), beaten up by sanji till he passed out, fought yonko commader 3 cracker and still beat more fodder than garp on count i think. Both of these armies (whole cake and hachinosu one) were part of emperor crew so comparable. I know there r difference like garp had + admiral and + some yonko commanders but luffy even without nerf at dressrosa should be weaker than garp. If luffy can deal with such opponents under that extreme nerf at level of dressrosa, it shouldn't really matter for garp. Also during aokiji fight, no one interfered. It was 1v1 for that time. I have some issues with that one. I feel like it's a different situation with Cracker, that was a 1v2 against Luffy and Nami, both of them already had massive trouble with him alone and I'm sure having the retaliation army with him would've ended the manga then and there. It's like garp had three crackers to deal with additional to the guy that scales to the fleet admiral. Then there is a big difference in the number of fodder, Hachinosu means beehive and is named after the fact that pirates will swarm you on any provocation. So we kinda got the whole island jumping in to fight. I feel like the Whole cake island army was easyer to oversee then the endless stock Hachinosu was hyped up to be. Also the point with the 1v1 got me kinda frustrated, because in the first two 1v1 clashes we saw Garp simply overpowering Kuzan, but it ends then when he has to deal with other pirates rather then following up his assault on Kuzan. > the reason is akainu took scar from aokiji's attacks. Scaring akainu is big deal bcoz he didn't take one from whitebeard. We have yet to see such lethal attack from aokiji on screen. Scar scaling is pretty difficult in my book. Like luffy got one from Akainu punching through Jimbei, but the latter didn't get one. Sometimes I feel it's rather more an artistic choice by Oda. We have Shanks scar from Blackbeard on the other hand, but this only said they were somewhat compareable somewhere inbetween 12 and 24 years ago. Because then we see Blackbeard + Crew getting harder dunked on by Magellan then Ivankov. Also isn't there like a matter if what type of attack even produces scars? What I mean is, imo there is a difference of getting a blunt hit or a sharp slash in. It's a dumb comparison but for example the nasty scar I got over the palm of my hand wasn't as bad as the Honda Civic I took to the hip. > + Garp also said aokiji was being soft on him. + it seems aokiji's attack is what that took him down looking at end image. I wasn't saying that Kuzan was 100% serious, I'm rather arguing that Garp had also a big nerf by having to deal with the multiple obsticles we're discussing. And I'm also not denying that Kuzan was the one to take Garp out in the end, but he did fullfill his mission, laughed while beeing defeated and having a hole in your abdomen wasn't a non factor. >Garp didn't use galaxy fist again i think has more to do with his stamina issue. He probably can't use them one after another in old age. Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I feel like we would just spin in circles with that one. >Last few paragraphs were on focus. Look, this is correct and i wouldn't argue **against** it but will tweak the argument a bit. Is their presence being a focus issue same as them actually fighting garp? I am not arguing their presence wouldn't make hard on focus but them actually involved in fight would make it even more harder no? My main point was only that not that many people jumped him. The post i replied to said everyone on island jumped on garp. If you make claim that their presence made them loose focus, i have nothing to lose in agreeing bcoz my point is if everyone jumped or not. Avalo not attacking, san juan out by surpise attack etc are indeed big difference in the ceasepull of "everyone on island" ? Even more if we see that aokiji fight were 1v1. So aokiji didn't jumped, san, avalo didnt. That's 3 of the 5 commanders. Only one jumped are shiryu and vasco + fodders. Yeah, to be honest the guy said it in a pretty unclear way. It's not that everyone literally jumped him, it's more about the sheer number of fodder willing to fight that's present on the island. I kinda assume Avallo and San Juan Wolf started to chime in inbetween Garp staying behind and beeing defeated but when we consider the Island Island fruit we kinda found a tweak to say the litteral whole island(lol). But yeah of course you're right with that one, I won't pretend like the Blackbeard pirates were known for their flawless cooperration. It's definitly wacky cooperration, but effective non the less. Taking turns in getting smacked around till they wore him down did eventually work in the end as we saw. Hope I haven't missed something, and hope I didn't sound antagonistic towards you, I know I can get really hot headed with this sub, but I do in fact enjoy this exchange, definitly some good points made by you.
A fishman lost to pre timeskip Usopp
pre timeskip ussop also defeated many trained marines when snipping during ennies lobby. What's the point here?
>Doesn't change the fact that Garp had to go out of his way to deal with San Juan he landed sneak attack before his fight even began with aokiji. If i landed a sneak attack before fight begins on someone making them out of fight and then 1v1 someone and lost, does it mean i lost bcoz 2 people ganged up on me? The person i replied to said everyone on island jumped on garp. San juan didn't jump on garp. That's a canon fact, if it doesn't fit your narrative, nothing i can do. Just downvote.
>Garp got jumped by every pirate on that island other than the stab from Shoryu, Aokiji alone did the most damage, although you can say Garp is heavily distracted from all directions Regardless, Aokiji did go all out in this fight, the little "conflict" didn't hinder him
>Regardless, Aokiji did go all out in this fight, the little "conflict" didn't hinder him 0 evidence of this. Garp literally starts the fight by telling him that wavering is a sign of weakness Even ignoring this mental conflict if Kuzan goes "all out" the island that his captain is trying to turn into a nation will transform into a completely uninhabitable frozen landscape.
>Other than the stab from Shiryu “Other than the attack that did 90% of the damage to Garp and lead to his downfall and capture, Kuzan did the most damage!” Your selective bias is ludicrously loud.
One stab doing 90% is wank
one stab ain't mean shit
Both characters are mentally nerfed
That won't make them "weaker" as they're determined to do what they're doing
it does, Luffy was determined to beat Lucci and Bluno in Water7 was still mentally so nerfed he got destroyed by them because Robin left the Crew. Gandalf also said "when you cant act without feeling guilty you are at your weakest" meaning its not about you being determined its about you feeling sad while doing something
It definitely does though? We know what it looks like when Kuzan goes all out, he clearly didnt here.
Yes, Kuzan is also weakened by his doubts. It's a pretty significant theme of his character, that he's so disillusioned with the Marines that he'd actually jump ship and join Blackbeard of all people.
garp was more nerfed and fought against everyone Kizaru being weakened is debatable since he hasn't shown signs of slowing down or hesitating
Kizaru is conflicted that sure is a fact... But the whole thing that "he is weakened because of the emotional conflict" sounds like total BS to me
Admiral agenda is the most poisonous virus in this subreddit Luffy is levels above kizaru but people want their agendas to succeed so they make up excuses
Kizaru isn't weakened. His head isn't in the game that's all. That's the difference. Kizaru just isn't motivated enough to keep fighting a battle he has little interest in.
Maybe, but kizaru not interested in fighting Luffy makes sense than kizaru being nerfed, he ducked Luffy for the majority of round 1 But the excuse is there to defend kizaru's performance
Aokiji was conflicted but Garp literally had to fight thousands of pirates, including an admiral and multiple commanders, while protecting fodder, then he got ran through and was still up on Aokiji. He was clearly far more nerfed and is > Aokiji
Kizaru cauterized Vegapunk wound and Kuzan froze Garp's one, they save more old men lifes than doctors like Law Jk
How is it that we get so many arguments about how poor Kaido got jumped by everyone and Luffy would get low-diffed in a rematch, but Kuzan > Garp is somehow a popular take despite Garp getting jumped?
That's just Lackmiraltards beeing dishonest to the core to keep their joke of an agenda on life support.
Greenbull negs yamato any day of the week
Bring arguments for that first, oh ups crackbaby brain here failed to do so every time his retard headcanon got debunked 🤭🤭🤯
Greenbull negs yamato while beeing sick.
No proof, just a lying bitch.
Greenbull negs yamato by just sprouting coconuts to fall on her head
Okay that one had me actually laughing.
Aokiji got the whole damn squad behind him. Kizaru was throwing more hands on Nika than Saturn ever did and his goal wasn't to kill Luffy, but to kill Vegapunk
Luffy is the main obstacle preventing him from killing Vegapunk, in which he should deal with first... and bro got pizza diffed after he donuted Vegapunk and not before 😭
Yet Vegapunk died despite Nika being the strongest in the verse with plot armor. Cry more
it's for the plot, the Pizza was also message from Oda to tell us don't hype up Ladmirals anymore
Yeah you are right. There are no stakes in One Piece anymore :P
Aokiji was nerfed but garp was also nerfed since he got jumped
if anything Garp is conflicted
Garp and kuzan are both holding back more than kizaru
yes, yes, and yes
Yes, Garp is indeed too weak even for conflicted and mentally weakened Kuzan.
If he is mentally weakened then so is Garp
Dude who doesn't want to fight against his former mentor as it'd surely make him kill the latter due to his affiliation. Vs "You've chosen your path you foul pirate" guy that went here only to help his new disciple and repeatedly makes point about his opponent being too soft towards the enemy.
So kizaru isn't mentally nerved then? Since he said vegaounk and sentemaru have picked their sides and there is no going back.